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"Leave & Cleave" vs. Honor thy Mother(-in-law)

Started by miss_priss, July 20, 2010, 01:10:08 PM

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pam1

"It seems a lot of people that have come from broken homes repeat the pattern in their adult life.  It isn't necessarily that they purposely set out to get into a marriage they intend to end, but rather, I think people repeat the self-defeating behaviors they witnessed as children."

I wanted to respond to this as well.  This is something my MIL has said about me and has stated this (not in the way you have Mamacita:) ) as if this is the sole reason she has problems with me.  I've caught her using this as a line of gossip to other family members and generally just repeating my parents divorce, in her own words -- she actually has no idea what happened, other than they divorced.  When DH asked her about -- for one, she got a LOT of the details very wrong, she couldn't get over the fact that not only was she "gossiping" she was also lying

She told DH she had no idea she shouldn't be telling anyone this stuff and kept defending her right to lie.  No apology to me, not a retraction to all the people she gossiped to me and my family about.  She was so dang curious about my family's background but not once reached out to me in anyway to really get my feelings on it, she took what she thought someone would feel and do and then ran with it. 

When DH and I saw a counselor I brought this up, I felt this behavior of MIL's was very hurtful and she was using my parents issues to gossip about me.  She really has no idea how I dealt with their divorce and how I felt about it in general.  She took something painful in most people's lives and then gossiped/lied/and used that as a deflection to not examine her own behavior.  The therapist said that in her opinion and her experience in a clinical setting that she has observed children of divorce being a lot more aware of social and family issues that could lead to divorce and being more proactive about those issues. 

Even now, it's still shocking to me that my MIL, in not even talking to me once about this could form so many opinions and judgements.  It is simply shocking to me.
People throw rocks at things that shine - Taylor Swift

cremebrulee

Quote from: GreatWhiteNorth on September 13, 2010, 07:00:05 AM
Well Creme-
She grew up in war times in Poland, in circumstances that I can probably never imagine and am forever greatful that I don't understand.

Some people come out of these sort of situations okay and others don't. My MILs is a case of arrested development, she functions emotionally at about the level of a 2.5-3 years old, so that is likely the age she was at when most likely none of her needs were met as a child and how she turned into who she is today.

We all go through hard times, but for the hard times to mold my MIL into the person she is today, those hard times would have to relentless and never ending. So I feel pity more then anything for my particular MIL, but that doesn't mean that I am equipped to handle her pathology either. I am simply not equipped and I can relate it to trying to save someone drowning when you can't swim, you just drown with them. If I don't detach from how MIL is I drown with her.

When I do that, I am not here for my family, for my kids, instead I am completely wrapped up in the pathology. If I can't handle MILs pathology and I am in my 30's, how can I expect my 6 and 4 year old to cope with it? They just can't, they are too little. They need to be kids, not be handed larger then life adult problems to deal with.

I am greatful that despite these challenges that my kids are healthy and happy kids that are growing up completely normal and blissfully unaware of MILs pathology, without her pathology hurting their family and place of security.

GWN
I'm very very sorry this happened to her...I tend to forget, that there are people out there who have had a disasterous childhood, and I apologize for pre-judging....and also very sorry that you are dealing with this, however, she is very lucky to have you.
Very lucky!  Your a brave and stoic woman.....


cremebrulee

September 13, 2010, 08:40:26 AM #152 Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 08:42:56 AM by cremebrulee
Quote from: pam1 on September 13, 2010, 07:49:09 AM
"It seems a lot of people that have come from broken homes repeat the pattern in their adult life.  It isn't necessarily that they purposely set out to get into a marriage they intend to end, but rather, I think people repeat the self-defeating behaviors they witnessed as children."

I wanted to respond to this as well.  This is something my MIL has said about me and has stated this (not in the way you have Mamacita:) ) as if this is the sole reason she has problems with me.  I've caught her using this as a line of gossip to other family members and generally just repeating my parents divorce, in her own words -- she actually has no idea what happened, other than they divorced.  When DH asked her about -- for one, she got a LOT of the details very wrong, she couldn't get over the fact that not only was she "gossiping" she was also lying

She told DH she had no idea she shouldn't be telling anyone this stuff and kept defending her right to lie.  No apology to me, not a retraction to all the people she gossiped to me and my family about.  She was so dang curious about my family's background but not once reached out to me in anyway to really get my feelings on it, she took what she thought someone would feel and do and then ran with it. 

When DH and I saw a counselor I brought this up, I felt this behavior of MIL's was very hurtful and she was using my parents issues to gossip about me.  She really has no idea how I dealt with their divorce and how I felt about it in general.  She took something painful in most people's lives and then gossiped/lied/and used that as a deflection to not examine her own behavior.  The therapist said that in her opinion and her experience in a clinical setting that she has observed children of divorce being a lot more aware of social and family issues that could lead to divorce and being more proactive about those issues. 

Even now, it's still shocking to me that my MIL, in not even talking to me once about this could form so many opinions and judgements.  It is simply shocking to me.

Pam1
I'm very sorry your being made to experience this...
I hope you don't mind, thought perhaps you might want to explore the following?
Maybe this will help a little, maybe it won't? 

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Deal-With-People-Who-Hurt-You&id=733249

GreatWhiteNorth

Pam1- Sometimes this statement is used by some to scapegoat with. It is a way of redirecting what the "issue" is.

When I was getting my Masters I was away every other weekend and my MIL memorized my school schedule and would ensure she was in our town when I was gone. She was at the stage of pretending that I don't exist thus she would wait until I was gone and then want to come over and play house in my absense.

My DH told her "no" that MIL was infact not treating us like a family when she specifically waits for me to be gone to come over. MIL had an enormous temper tantrum over this, over her son saying "no" to her.

She started email bashing me and acted like it was my fault, as if I was forcing her son to say no to her...oh the emails.....three or four months of these silly silly emails. She pulled everything from claiming I was I was "unholy" to this exact statement. One email she scapegoated me for the whole thing and claimed it was due to my difficult childhood and then said that it was a shame that I act this way, that many people have had difficult childhoods and still manage to be happy and then claimed I was hurting the kids with my apparent unhappiness.

This was all going on in my  MILs head, not an ounce of validity to it whatsoever, but see how she used that very arguement to scapegoat me?

My childhood had nothing to do with my husband saying "no" to her and her accompanying temper tantrum at all, I was not even in the Country when my husband said "no" to her, I was in school which was just across the border. I didn't even hear about him saying "no" to her until weeks after the fact. It had nothing to do with me or my difficult childhood at all.

My point is.....it is one of the oldest tricks in the book and I see the scapegoating in what you wrote as well, I have seen other situations where dysfunctional people do something similar. My one friend her MIL would use the death of her dear mother against her, it is also about button pushing, when they pick instances in your life that cause you pain. They are actually looking for a negative reaction, it gives them a sense of feeling powerful to negatively effect someone like that. (I am not talking about MILs here, but abusive people in general)

I see your point about the gossiping, last time I saw MIL I was surprized as I saw her gossip about SILs brothers marriage. I never saw that part of her somehow until that point.




GreatWhiteNorth

Creme- I didn't feel like you judged her at all, my point was that I pity her and those are the reasons and that I understand how she got that way, however I don't think how my  MIL got that way is a valid reason to be abusive, and I certainly don't see her as powerless, in that she somehow "has" to abuse, as if it is out of her control. She has choices to make and her life is a sum of her choices, her choices are what have shaped her destiny.

My pitying of MIL is the alternative for me to feeling revolted by her, it is the place I am at with her and it is how I am trying to practice forgiveness. Doesn't mean I am going to go near her again, she certainly has not changed, she is still toxic. But I don't want the negative effects on my life of actively hating someone. It is extremely exhausting and not productive at all.

MIL chooses to be who she is and I choose how to deal with that. I couldn't change her if I wanted to, it is not even my place to try.


pam1

Quote from: cremebrulee on September 13, 2010, 08:40:26 AM
Quote from: pam1 on September 13, 2010, 07:49:09 AM
"It seems a lot of people that have come from broken homes repeat the pattern in their adult life.  It isn't necessarily that they purposely set out to get into a marriage they intend to end, but rather, I think people repeat the self-defeating behaviors they witnessed as children."

I wanted to respond to this as well.  This is something my MIL has said about me and has stated this (not in the way you have Mamacita:) ) as if this is the sole reason she has problems with me.  I've caught her using this as a line of gossip to other family members and generally just repeating my parents divorce, in her own words -- she actually has no idea what happened, other than they divorced.  When DH asked her about -- for one, she got a LOT of the details very wrong, she couldn't get over the fact that not only was she "gossiping" she was also lying

She told DH she had no idea she shouldn't be telling anyone this stuff and kept defending her right to lie.  No apology to me, not a retraction to all the people she gossiped to me and my family about.  She was so dang curious about my family's background but not once reached out to me in anyway to really get my feelings on it, she took what she thought someone would feel and do and then ran with it. 

When DH and I saw a counselor I brought this up, I felt this behavior of MIL's was very hurtful and she was using my parents issues to gossip about me.  She really has no idea how I dealt with their divorce and how I felt about it in general.  She took something painful in most people's lives and then gossiped/lied/and used that as a deflection to not examine her own behavior.  The therapist said that in her opinion and her experience in a clinical setting that she has observed children of divorce being a lot more aware of social and family issues that could lead to divorce and being more proactive about those issues. 

Even now, it's still shocking to me that my MIL, in not even talking to me once about this could form so many opinions and judgements.  It is simply shocking to me.

Pam1
I'm very sorry your being made to experience this...
I hope you don't mind, thought perhaps you might want to explore the following?
Maybe this will help a little, maybe it won't? 

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Deal-With-People-Who-Hurt-You&id=733249

Hi Creme and thanks for the article.  I don't pray but I understand the gist of what they're getting at.  To be honest, I was more shocked than anything that my MIL took it upon herself to gossip about my family.  For one, it was mainly made up stuff and two, I felt like it was more set up to be hurtful to me rather than actually being hurtful to me.  KWIM? 

I knew it was lies so therefore, I didn't really care.  Similar to if at a work situation you know a coworker is lying about you, you might be confused or shocked, but you know the truth and those who are closest to you know the truth so it's not actually hurtful to you.  However, MIL is not a coworker and the damage I believe she was setting out to accomplish was done with the intent to do harm was what concerned me and it is why I explored the issue with the counselor with my husband. And this isn't the only example I have of similar issues with MIL, I've seen her gossip about some rather sensitive issues with other in laws and it was much worse than what she did with me.  I also saw that she always did this in reaction to being told "no" or in someway not getting what she wanted.  It wasn't ever an innocent conversation where she let things slip, she deliberately told untruths about people and usually used a painful platform to do it on.

What concerns me the most is not what MIL says (although it's probably a pretty big reason I don't trust her lol) but how it affects my marriage.   
People throw rocks at things that shine - Taylor Swift

pam1

Quote from: GreatWhiteNorth on September 13, 2010, 10:40:53 AM
Pam1- Sometimes this statement is used by some to scapegoat with. It is a way of redirecting what the "issue" is.

When I was getting my Masters I was away every other weekend and my MIL memorized my school schedule and would ensure she was in our town when I was gone. She was at the stage of pretending that I don't exist thus she would wait until I was gone and then want to come over and play house in my absense.

My DH told her "no" that MIL was infact not treating us like a family when she specifically waits for me to be gone to come over. MIL had an enormous temper tantrum over this, over her son saying "no" to her.

She started email bashing me and acted like it was my fault, as if I was forcing her son to say no to her...oh the emails.....three or four months of these silly silly emails. She pulled everything from claiming I was I was "unholy" to this exact statement. One email she scapegoated me for the whole thing and claimed it was due to my difficult childhood and then said that it was a shame that I act this way, that many people have had difficult childhoods and still manage to be happy and then claimed I was hurting the kids with my apparent unhappiness.

This was all going on in my  MILs head, not an ounce of validity to it whatsoever, but see how she used that very arguement to scapegoat me?

My childhood had nothing to do with my husband saying "no" to her and her accompanying temper tantrum at all, I was not even in the Country when my husband said "no" to her, I was in school which was just across the border. I didn't even hear about him saying "no" to her until weeks after the fact. It had nothing to do with me or my difficult childhood at all.

My point is.....it is one of the oldest tricks in the book and I see the scapegoating in what you wrote as well, I have seen other situations where dysfunctional people do something similar. My one friend her MIL would use the death of her dear mother against her, it is also about button pushing, when they pick instances in your life that cause you pain. They are actually looking for a negative reaction, it gives them a sense of feeling powerful to negatively effect someone like that. (I am not talking about MILs here, but abusive people in general)

I see your point about the gossiping, last time I saw MIL I was surprized as I saw her gossip about SILs brothers marriage. I never saw that part of her somehow until that point.

You put that so well, GWN.  That's exactly how I felt about that situation and others that I've seen MIL start.  It wasn't so much what she said, it was the intent. 

And I think with like you said, abusive people in general, doesn't matter if it is DIL or MIL or whoever this can't be reckoned with.  I have no idea how to deal with a person like that -- that is something she will have to figure out on her own. 

People throw rocks at things that shine - Taylor Swift

JustAnotherDay

Hello, Everyone, as you can see, this is my first post.

Without a lot of detail, I lived in many different countries and my parents are English. I was abused: physically, emotionally, sexually.  I came to the United States to further pursue my education and fell in love with an American man.  We love each other very much and have been married for six years. When I was fourteen I was in an accident that broke many vertebrae in my back and I have had several surgeries. This has left me in chronic pain. Six months after our (extremely stressful) wedding, I had what's ordinarily called a 'nervous breakdown' and had to be hospitalised for my own safety.  I have been in intensive therapy since then and things have improved tremendously, although my husband and I do go to couple's therapy as well.  It is so much with which to deal for my husband, and had I any sort of inkling of an issue before the wedding, I would have expressly told him.

It's not been the same as far as my mother-in-law and I since then.  It's clear my mother in-law has some very deep issues inherited from her situation, for example finding out who her biological father was in her mid-forties and her mother (my husband's grandmother) that has her own issues as well.

Right now, things are not going well between my husband and I, having to do with an unfortunate incident involving his birthday.--one of those small things that brings out the resentment and hatred that's been boiling for so many years.  My mother-in-law has been cruel, called me horrible things, such a liar, that I made "them" uncomfortable, want everything to be perfect (clearly not seen my house lately, I have two big dogs that tend to make a mess! LOL) and told my husband I'd be "trouble when I leave," etc. I relate to the woman who wrote earlier that she felt she had 'cooties' and was 'the scapegoat.' That's how I feel when I'm with his family. 

I've tried so hard to defend myself, but it always turns into a circular argument and my 'fight or flight' kicks in--or should I say, flight.  I quietly leave--no slamming doors, just quietly leaving their home and sitting in the car. I should add that there has always been a great animosity between their three children and their mates.  I am ready to cut the 'ties that bind' as far as my mother and father in law go, however, my sister-in-law is pregnant and suddenly held on a pedestal of outrageous proportions by husband's family. 

We both want to be a part of his nephew's life--I've told him that everyone is welcome at our home but his mother-in-law, but that I cannot have someone whose said such hurtful things in my home, which I consider a den of safety. I've been through too much to listen to another person put me down and make me feel terrible.  I haven't seen *my* family in years, due to financial constraints, so all holidays are spent with them.  I would so love to have a family that loves me back, but that just doesn't seem to be in the cards. I am considering leaving my husband and going to my home--I just can't imagine raising a family in an emotionally hurtful environment as I did and would like to have children before my 'clock' begins to tick.

I just don't know what to do, what to say, but it's clear that my depression is worse when my in-laws are involved and it's become an unhealthy situation.  I just don't know what to do anymore.

barelythere

Dear JustAnotherDay,
I am so sorry you are going through this painful situation.  Having to deal with all this in a country not your own makes it even worse.  I find no excuse for your Mother in Law to treat you like this.  It doesn't matter at all that she is dealing with "deep issues of her own".  You've been through too much, her issues are not important right now.  I hope you and your husband can come to terms with your marriage but if you have a safe place to go to where there are people who love you, that's where I'd go.  This is just my opinion but I send it with my heart to you.

luise.volta

Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

JustAnotherDay

Thank you, barelythere and Luise, your replies matter more than you know.  I should make clear that my husband and I have never been physical with each other, but when he sits quietly and lets his family and his mother berate me, it makes me so angry.  Yes, I stand up for myself the best way that I know how (I was taught that my elders were unquestionably in the right, which is something I've worked upon in therapy.)

For the longest time, my SIL was talked about horribly--awful stuff, for example, my MIL said that if she ever got pregnant (she has polycystic ovarian syndrome and was unlikely to conceive) that she'd keep it in a kennel like one of her dogs. Now that she is pregnant (which was part of the aspect of the birthday--they announced that she had a positive home test the day before his 30th birthday and a positive blood test the day of), she is treated so well, with lovely compliments--I admit to my jealousy at this. I was sad about my own doubtful fertility and the timing for a three or so days, then scrapped it up, sent cards, tried to send e-mails about the things you speak about to a pregnant woman.  She has no interest in even trying to answer the e-mails my husband encourages.

My husband is realising that if I won't go to his parent's home (and I'd like to say that I've never, ever forbid him from going to their home or seeing his relatives) that I will not be there for various holidays--and thus, if we have children, they will not have a 'normal' Christmastime.

I'm fighting tooth and nail to find a job--not easy in all this economic jibberjabber.  This morning I woke up just sobbing.  My husband asked what was wrong and I couldn't even begin to articulate everything. He just left and shut the door.  It's just so much pressure from each and every side, and due to the heavy cost of my doctor's visits and medications, we're sinking fast financially. I don't know how much longer I can stand all of this, but I haven't got the funds to make it home, even for a little while.

luise.volta

Can you contact your family members and ask them to pay for your trip back? Sometimes we don't ask (I don't) when others would have helped. Sending love...
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

luise.volta

I think there is a way for you to change your user name if that would help. Sending love...
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

miss_priss

JustAnotherDay - I had not planned on doing any more posting to this site, but I decided to just read today and your story breaks my heart.  Some folks here will not like what I have to say, but I feel I need to say it as a fellow DIL in a similar situation with my in-laws.   

Some people are just poisonous to our spirits and to anyone around them.  Most people just accept it and live with it (awww, that's just how she is!), others of us can recognize it and choose not to accept it.  Your MIL sounds extremely TOXIC, and hubby really doesn't sound much better to be totally honest.  Shame on her for treating you this way, and shame on him for allowing it.  And I think you are right, your home is YOUR safe haven.  If she cannot treat you respectfully in your home then she has no right or reason to be there, hubby can go visit with her elsewhere if he wishes.  And if your husband chooses to maintain his toxic relationship with these toxic people, then good for him...but you don't have to.   Shame on your MIL for what she said about the unborn children of your SIL, and shame on her for now putting on the illusion of a happy concerned grandma.  I hope you see that if she will say something so disgusting about your SIL, I can only imagine what she must say about you and others.  Shame, shame, shame on her.

I hope that if you want to maintain a relationship with your SIL and new nephew as you said, you will reach out to her again.  If she refuses, there is nothing you can do to change that.  Don't get bogged down in things you can't change. 

You're the only person who can make the decision regarding the fate of your marriage in this situation.  You can feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but hubby sounds like he's cruising right in there with them and not supporting you the way he needs to.  This is HIS family, and he needs to protect you from their toxicity by whatever means necessary, and if he can't/won't do that then that must mean he either 1) doesn't see anything wrong with how they're treating you, which is very sad, or 2) is too afraid of her to speak up for you.  Shame on him.  And you came to this site looking for support and answers and encouragement in your situation, anonymously I might add, and shame on him for making you feel bad about that.  What, is he afraid you're going to get good advice?  Is he afraid that you'll learn that you shouldn't tolerate that kind of treatment?  Shame on him. 

I will give you kudos for encouraging your hubby to spend time with his family, he certainly should do that.  But I will tell you from my own experience, and from reading posts from other DILs...I think we can all agree that the "separate life" doesn't work forever, and him having the double-life does nothing to repair the situation.  Instead it will lead your MIL into the next phase of her treatment of you...she will just pretend you don't exist.  (Oh, but she will still want access to your children, believe me!)  He can't maintain a life with them, and a separate one with you.  It just doesn't work, and it may not bother you now, but it will eventually really hurt your spirit and even your marriage.  It's a very short-term solution to a very long-term problem and it does nothing but give his mother exactly what she wanted all along.....him (and his children), without YOU.  It does nothing to help her accept you as a couple (you can't make her do that).     

And you're thinking along the right lines regarding future children.  It sounds like there is a very uncivil relationship between you and your MIL, and I'm not sure what your relationship is with the rest of his family.  But if your husband chooses to maintain that relationship with another person (even his mother) who treats his wife like a pile of poo, he WILL want to share his children with her, even without you or even your consent.  In that situation you have two choices, you can continue getting beat up while you visit them with your hubby and child, or you can adopt the "all of us or none of us" way of life.  I don't know how your hubby would respond to that, but I can guess.  I myself would never even consider sharing my child with anyone who I knew was emotionally abusive or treated me or DH like poo, and that includes family on either side.  It's like handing your child off to your sister who just intentionally smacked you in the face or your brother that mugged you or the uncle that pulled a gun on you.  Why would you do that?  Why would anyone do that?  It just doesn't make good sense, even when it's family.  Mistreatment and abuse is unacceptable and it doesn't matter who it's from or what form its in, emotional, physical, or sexual.  If your husband is allowing her to mistreat you keep his own peace with Mumsy, then he's just as bad as she is IMHO.       

I hope you will consider your own happiness amidst all of this.  YOU deserve to be happy, and if these people can't treat you any better than poo, then let them be happy together without you.  These people, your husband included, are causing YOU stress and depression.  This needs to be brought up in counseling, and if he can't support you in a better way than this then you've got a tough choice to make.   You're in my prayers love.  I'll be thinking of you.     

luise.volta

Hi Miss Priss - Glad to see you. We don't post here to please others on our site, we post to express and learn. Others can always take what they want and leave the rest. I hope you'll reconsider and stay. Sending love...
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama