"Leave & Cleave" vs. Honor thy Mother(-in-law)

[luise.volta]

And always remember that we are Wise Women. For every MIL who is wronged without being given a chance...there is a loving, willing DIL who is treated badly without being given a chance. Pathology can exist at either end of the spectrum. That's why I changed the name of our Forum from MILs Unite to Wise Women Unite.

Where there is judgment...balance can't exist.

Sending love...

[luise.volta]

Miss U - We were typing at the same time and saying the same thing...

[pam1]

I don't think there's anything wrong with a husband "cleaving" to his wife.  But, I've never known it to biblically mean to cut mom (or dad, or siblings) out of the picture.  How many women who feel so strongly about their MIL "leaving" will do the same with their father (or their mother, siblings)?  Besides, I don't believe anybody needs to be cut out of a picture - rather, the picture needs "retouching," with love and gentleness.  And, so what if mom has concerns of being abandoned?  Maybe dad does, too!  Since when is it a crime to take care of your parents?  I've known more than one DIL that did it with love!  It's foolish, and selfish, to think that once you marry, you don't ever have to associate with other family members, and if they don't do exactly as you want, when you want, you'll "modify" their behavior by keeping grandchildren, or their own child, away.  If the shoe was on the other foot and a man did this, I think it's safe to say he would be considered "abusive."  All too often I've come across comments from DIL (usually still young - in their 20's or 30's) that are sometimes so caustic I automatically feel for their mothers-in-law (and their husbands, as well as other family members).  Sure, some MIL can be difficult, and sometimes no matter what you do, they're on a mission to put a wedge in between their son and DIL.  Most MIL I know, though, try very hard to form a good relationship with their DIL.  Nobody is perfect!  A DIL that has any amount of maturity will note her MIL is trying!  Give her credit!  Believe me, the ones that aren't, aren't doing anybody a favor.  They don't realize how much damage they're doing until they grow up, and become MIL themselves, and the tables are turned.  Then they realize they've made a bed of nails for themselves.  Nobody is a winner in these situations.

Good post Mamacita - I agree with you, that MILs, in general terms, shouldn't be completely cut out of the picture.  However, there are DILs right here on this forum who will tell you that the problems in their marriages began simply because either 1) MIL never let son completely leave the nest, or 2) son didn't know how or didn't want to leave the nest. 

I think we need to all get past being bunched into like piles.  DILs are on this site because of problem MILs, and likewise for MILs.  When I make a statement about my MIL, I don't state, nor do I imply, that all MILs are like her (God help us if they are).  I think it's safe to say that most MILs have no issue "allowing" their sons and daughters the right to choose whom they marry.....but let's face it, those good MILs are not why we DILs are here.  It works the same way for MILs.  When a MIL in despair posts about her awful DIL, I don't assume she is grouping me in that category.  True understanding is when we are able to, at the very least, hear and empathize with both sides. 

My reasoning for this post was not to bash MILs accross the board, but it's clear by reading through this thread that many took some serious offense to it when they don't even fit in the category.  Which is ok, we have "evolved" (or de-evolved, in my opinion) into an ever-offended society.  I'm sure someone will be offended by that statement in itself!

But I think it's safe to say that as the human race has "evolved" and society has grown to its modern-day proportion, we as a society have "left" God's word behind for other teachings that make more sense to us, that fit in better with our lifestyle, and some have discarded spirituality altogether because it's simply too "offensive" to so many. 

For a son to "leave his mother and cleave unto his wife" doesn't and shouldn't mean that the son's FOO should be absolutely cut off, and anyone who reads it that way, I believe, is really taking it to extremes.  What it DOES mean, is that son's #1 priority as an adult should be his wife and children.  You're absolutely right, MIL should have a place in her DS's life, always!  However, in my case and if you'll keep reading, MANY DIL's cases here, MIL thinks that her place is IN the marriage, and that her relationship with her son should be that of a quasi-husband.  If you don't fit in that category, then good for you, and good for your DIL!

Well said, Miss Priss.

DH and I had a conversation last night that I thought was pretty eye-opening and I thought a lot of the women could relate to this here.  In many of the situations that have happened with my in laws it's always boiled down to "that's just how they are!" in reference to whatever happened with who.  Over time I've heard the "that's just how they are!" to excuse hurtful things that anyone would take great offense to.  The resentment from being on the receiving end of bad behavior for so long b/c of "how someone is" builds and builds and builds until it starts to become irreparable.  Small things become big things, words are taken out of context, behaviors are scrutinized for any negative attribute.  It is an unhealthy and at times, nasty relationship for anyone to deal with.

When one side is not willing to modify their behavior, even in the face of consequences or hurt feelings of the other party just to claim their "right" on moral grounds....well, they've already lost.  They lost their intended audience and the lost the meaning of what a real true and loving relationship is.

I think for MIL's it can especially painful b/c some DIL's never intended on developing a relationship from the get go.  And some DIL's really hoped and worked to nurture a relationship that is painful to them.  It can be vicious for all parties.

[luise.volta]

"That's how they are", to me, means we can't change "how they are." That doesn't have to mean that we condone it or like it. Who would? Not me! We learn to accept it for survival reasons, since we can't change it. We do it for us.

[mamacita]

miss-priss - I agree with you.  I hope my response didn't come across as though I was lumping people into piles.  As said, I've known more than one DIL who has taken care of her husband's family with love.  There are always MIL and DIL that don't fit the horrific stereotype that has been around for God knows how long.  Biblically, we know of Ruth and Naomi.  As for the ones that don't have that type of relationship....sure there are some MIL that can cause problems, but I don't think it's meant to be confused with MIL that are sincerely trying to help their child (and/or DIL or SIL).  Some of the in-laws are so touchy, though, that anything you say, don't say, do, don't do is viewed in the most negative light, and taken as an offense.  As Pam1 wrote, some in-laws (whether it be a MIL or DIL) never intended on developing a relationship from the get-go, and anything (in their mind) serves as justification.  Unbelievably sad. 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

I agree with everyone and see the value in each post, in each opinion and from each side of the story.

I live beside a wonderful woman, she is a MIL who is being treated badly by her DIL. This lady takes care of the 4 DILs kids for free, all the time and she never ever gets a day off. I always know when she has a day off because the night before there is the DIL dropping off her kids for the night and next day. Last summer they were over all the time and this summer this MIL seems to have been cut off or something. So she is there for them but yet I never see either her or her husband help her in any way. Her son came over once to help her trim her hedge and I have never seen them again all summer.

I would give my eye teeth to have this wonderful woman as my MIL or even as part of the family. She knows she can count on us and my husband always goes over and helps her, with her TV if it is not working, he will look at her car if it is running badly and I don't mind one bit.

This is normal to me and it is kindness.....

But my MIL on the other hand is simply an abuser (which has nothing to do with her title as MIL whatsoever- that is simply how she effects me in particular). My MIL dangles her enormous bank account infront of her sons, manipulates with it. My MIL is not just looking for help here and there and to be taken care of the normal way that one would find an elder needs care. My MIL wants to be served.

Do you know that my MIL thinks of her sons as possessions, they are tools to her. The tool has a name called "her boys". MIL has lamented about why she should allow others to use her "tools" in the past, they are her tools that MIL apparently deserves to have because she has "earned" it....she has said this alot.  MILs problem is that she views her sons as tools only, not as people.

My MIL is entitled, she wants to come first before the wife, before the kids, she wants a manservant from her son period even though MIL is a physically strong woman with more then ample resources to take care of herself. MIL has crossed this line to exploitation who throws temper tantrums when she is not placed first or if someone has the oddosity to say "no" to this extremely entitled and arrogant woman. Saying "no" to her means she launches war on the DIL that she blames for the situation.

So I am dealing with an abuser period as some MILs are dealing with abusers in their DILs. These are simply the titles they have that relate to us and how they effect us in particular.

Pathology can exist from either side of the spectrum, Louise is absolutely right and I think it is great to have a board where MILs and DILs come to talk about the situation, to see both ends. A badly treated MIL or a badly treated DIL. It shows growth and it moves away from the mentality of "all MILs(or DILs) are evil" or " when a MIL (or DIL) is spoken about it means all MILs or DILs" and I have seen posters take this stance and get extremely hurt over hearing of an abusive MIL thinking it applies to her or all MILs. We are talking about abusive behavior period, it is important to remember that.

Just my two cents.

[Pen]

Great post, GWN! Sometimes our emotions are running high, for both DILs/MILs, and we take things personally (I know, I've done that.) I agree that we should try not to feel criticized when someone is talking about their own situation. It's also important to not criticize someone here due to one's own issues.

Just because a MIL/DIL we're dealing with is a certain way, it doesn't mean the posters here are the same. I know I have taken it personally when posters have mentioned "red flags" or "suspicions" over something an MIL here has said, as if their situation couldn't possibly be what they say it is.

Helpful, supportive comments are always appreciated, but having our honesty questioned is as unproductive as getting our knickers in a twist over some imagined criticism.

This site is amazing and I hope we can always be a source of hope, support and kindness for all DILs and MILs who are working at overcoming difficult situations.

[Sunny1]

I have to start by saying that I too agree with everyone's posts and am so thankful for this site. I know that after all that I've been thru with my MIL, I can be defensive and untrusting of others. Feelings are difficult to deal with on either side and trying to put everyones feelings into perspective is a daunting task at times, I hope that I don't hurt anyone's feelings or step on anyone's toes; that's never my intention. Id like to think that we are all here to explore, learn, and vent....or whatever else that we may need. Each and every person on here seems to be invaluable.

And GWN –I also want to ensure that I'm not giving the impression that your neighbor is at all like my MIL, or that your intentions are anything but honest, but rather that there are always two sides to a story and sometimes "looks" can be very deceiving.

My MIL is that woman who always dresses impeccably. She is always very, very involved in her church and "doing good deeds," always gives off that impression that she is a perfect person and her family is perfect too. I had known her (not well though) for years before DH and I dated because we had all gone to church together. I even knew quite a few members of DH's extended family thru church, including his maternal uncle and grandparents; all of whom I knew much better than DH's parents before we began to date. I wasn't raised as a Christian, (I was a C & E Churchgoer growing up) so I think I might have been rather naive about Christians when I started to go on my own as a newly divorced single mom.

I never questioned at the time that it happened, about why DH's immediate family left our church; and (surprisingly) DH, his grandparents and uncle's family all stayed, but maybe I should have. However, I'm sure I would have heard some story that put MIL in a victim's role, or I just plain wouldn't have gotten the truth at all. His family is rather tight-lipped about their imperfections and I've since seen that in their eyes, they are always right, and everyone else is inferior to them and wrong. They are more worried about putting on the impression that their family is THE perfect nuclear family. So yes, they are there to help out a neighbor, volunteer at church or other functions or just to pull off the perfect party, and as this thread even discussed before, my MIL will send lavish gifts in lieu of an apology too; anything to show that they're doing the right thing but never humbling themselves to true repentance. I have genuinely never met a more intelligently conniving, manipulative, and arrogantly hypocritical person in my life than my MIL.

It's truly narcissism at its worst. It's so sad that it's taken years for my DH to see what he's been a victim of for his entire life. And even worse, his sis has been put on a pedestal and has been raised to be just as entitled as her mother. If SIL has children and becomes a MIL someday, I'm sure the cycle will continue. I already pity the poor woman that may become my SIL's DIL someday, and because we've had to cutoff DH's family, I'm not aware of what SIL's relationship is like with her DH's family; but I'm willing to bet that she's the difficult DIL that some of you MIL's are having to deal with.

To me this has all been a near culture shock. Although I am in that 30-something generation that has been generally viewed as being entitled, I was raised in a single income lower-middle-class nuclear family; raised to be thankful for what I had and to be honest and respectful towards others; all things that I naively expected even more so from a mature Christian family.

I couldn't imagine what it must be like living with the mindset of its how WE are, when it's all fake and just for show. Essentially, living a lie.

I know that there are Mil's and DIL's alike who are dealing with this on this site, so I want to add that I in no way think that all MIL's are like mine and there just as many DIL's that are difficult too. So, that said,  I can't help but take pity all of the difficult MIL's and DIL's, they must truly be miserable people somewhere inside of their fake, hardened shells in order to behave in such heinous ways toward others.

[mamacita]

I don't wish to ruffle any feathers, but some things seem to be standing out.  For instance, the church-going MIL.  I'm uncomfortable with the post about her, and the family.  Grant you, I'm not there, and maybe she's as manipulative as was said...but I question it.  Food for thought...and I don't mean this to be unkind.  But, it seems a lot of people that have come from broken homes repeat the pattern in their adult life.  It isn't necessarily that they purposely set out to get into a marriage they intend to end, but rather, I think people repeat the self-defeating behaviors they witnessed as children.  The language of some of the posts...they speak of abuse (which, when I was younger meant you were actually being hit, or being treated nearly as badly as a POW), manipulation, arrogance, etc.  What seems to be the cure (at least, the one I read of)?  Cutting off one's family!  In other words, continued divorce, of sorts.  It's not a solution.  It's a reaction, and a poor one at that.  Rather than stick things out - even if the person really isn't the kindest person on the planet, but also not Hitler - they're cast off.  When does this cycle end?  Because, quite frankly, some of the things I've read (typically from DIL, usually in their 20's and 30's) concern me deeply.  Eventually DIL become MIL.  It would be extremely naive to think the friction you're feeling won't happen to you.  Yes, it will be different - and I believe it will be worse...it'll snowball.  Part of that feeling was confirmed when reading a particular "Annie's Mailbox" letter from a woman who was once a DIL and said/did some pretty awful things - similar to what I've read (I've read stuff on other forums).  Then she became a MIL.  Talk about a new perspective - and REGRET! 

[cremebrulee]

yes, we all do things when we are young for many reasons....everyone has reasons for doing things...and I do believe we continue the patterns throughout adulthood, if we are unaware and refuse to see the other side of the spectrum...I know all mil's and dil's are not in trouble, b/c I have many friends and acquantances who love they're dil's and mil's and get along just fine...

I also have to add to Pen...I do know how you feel, when you say, someone is questioning your honesty...I felt that way when my son would go round and round for hours on the phone, and I'd tell him my side of the story, and he'd say, no, she didn't mean it that way, and I'd be horrified, thinking that he was saying I was lying about the situation...That tore me apart...but it tore me apart, b/c I was only able to see things from my perspectives...he was doing the same thing with his wife, and it hurt her awful...she also thought he was siding with me, against her..and that wasn't and isn't the case...it's just when we're hurting, and feel lost, we are unable to sometimes see things  in any other way but our own...and when I asked for help, I wasn't able to really listen, all I wanted was validation for my feelings...didn't realize, then, that there was another perspective on this.

Yanno what I wish...and it's never going to happen, but human beings get into trouble with each other b/c they don't talk, they're afraid to say to someone else, "you did this to hurt my feelings"....and if they would be able to say that right from the beginning, instead of hiding, it, it would surely help matters.  But, when my son said to me, "you hurt DIL's feelings b/c you refused to eat breakfast".  Well, I was so engrossed in my own pain, that all I heard him say to me was, "YOU WERE WRONG"...and he wasn't saying that...what he was saying was, there was no wrong or right, I hurt her feelings...but I wouldn't even consider that fact...I wasn't able to....I wasn't wrong, she wasn't right, or I wasn't right she wasn't wrong....but that very small thing, hurt her, b/c even though my son told her, that I don't eat breakfast...she didn't hear that, all she wanted to do was make a good impression so she went out and bought all kinds of things for me, for me, to please me, and I rejected her gift...rejection comes in many forms....in words, actions, refusals, etc....so, after that, nothing either one of us would do, would be right, and everything she did, I perceived as being done to hurt me, to drive a wedge between my son and self, so she could have him all to herself...but she wasn't...she was simply being who she was, which is the only way she knew how to be.

I know think of any DIL who agrees to marry a son...and I'm not talking about the mean, selfish dysfuncational DIL....but can you imagine how frightened she is...by saying yes, to the man she loves, she is also saying yes to his family...and I can't imagine how alone and afraid she must be....when a DIL marry's a son, the reason why so many DIL's are so scared is, she is afraid that she might say one thing that would offend her new MIL, and if  that MIL is used to being in control and very very steadfast about her personal moral and political institutions, can you see, where one thing said, might stir up the apple cart...and that MIL, thinks the girl is being disrespectful?  She isn't, really, she's just being herself...

When someone says, that's the way they are, they are accepting that person the way they are, b/c they know, people don't change...it doesn't mean, they are accepting that person's behavior. 

You can't continue to cut people out of your life, b/c they're thoughts and beliefs don't agree with our own.  It doesn't mean you should allow people to walk all over you, use you for a door mat, or be abusive or neglect to respect your personal boundaries...however, there are some things that you simply must ignore and aren't nearly as important.  And we all feel differently about situations...You've read many times, where we've written, well I would do it this way or that...doesn't mean, your wrong, what it means is, that person is seeing things in a different perspective and to me, I always consider that it might be to my advantage to listen...I can in my own mind sort out what works for me, and what doesn't, however, in my own personal life, I have applied many suggestions made here to try them on and see if they fit.

Just b/c I just started a new relationship with my DIL, doesn't mean, well, it's all better, end of story...it's hard work, and I'm still afraid...and she is to...but we're working at it...it doesn't happen over night...it takes a whole lot of time, to get to know one another and I now realize, she isn't going to automatically say to herself...well, I feel like I've known her all my life, and now she's calling me mom....no sir, it's going to take so much longer, to learn to trust each other and work at it together....I love her, and I know all you love your DIL's....what you don't like about her is her behavior...doesn't mean you hate her, you hate her behavior, and most of all, the rejection...rejection is sorely painful...

We all want to be liked and want to be accepted...and when we are forced together in situations like this...we have no choice...but to accept each other the best we can. 

However, there are some women here who are wrongly accussed, and wrongly treated, be you MIL or DIL...so please, when someone else is posting, please try and understanding, they are not accusing you or saying your wrong...they are only trying to help you see things from another perspective so that, if you understand why the person is doing the things she's doing, maybe that will help you get around it and help fix things....

I didn't like what I thought my DIL was doing, so, I kept telling myself...well, she had some very bad childhood  experiences...and a lot of things she's doing she might be doing out of pattern behavior, out of habit, and not against me, b/c it's all she knows, and she surely can't be like me or think like me...b/c we're both different.

I was a mil and a DIL...and when my MIL would interfer it drove me nuts...and I'm not saying anyone here does...I'm simply writing a story about me...and I would sometimes, act out in a very nasty way...b/c it appeared to me, that she was interferring...and big time, we even went to counseling and the counselor told my husband, that he had to break away from her apron strings....she wasn't doing it to be nasty, she viewed it as helping...but it surely upset me...and that is one of the reasons I left, among many others...now, I understand, why and please know, I love her very much, and realize, while she was overly controlling, she did it out of caring and goodness...she is a strong willed woman with a whole lot of good qualities...and I will always love her for the things she taught me...however, she was overstepping boundaries...and I, was so young, and said and did things that hurt her, in defense of my postion as her son's wife. 

Time and growth, helps us see things in a whole different light...but when we're young, sometimes, we are only able to view someone's behavior, think of it as wrong, and wanting to distance ourselves from them, instead of saying to ourselves, well, that or this is a really small thing...let it roll off and ignore what isn't and learn to appreciate what is...

We all have good points and bad points in us...and I remember several people saying to me, when I was young..."if someone doesn't think or feel like I do, I view them as being bad people"....and I did...I wasn't able to look past myself...I thought the way I was raised to think and believe were the right way and the only way to be, and was horrified, if someone did something out of my realm of belief...and actually took things very personal...like if I found out something personal about someone that I didn't believe was right...well, that person was to me, very evil, wrong and not worthy.  Boy was I wrong....

So, by writing all of this, I'm trying to explain, that a lot of times, there are no right or wrong answers...and a lot of times, you girls are not wrong for feeling the way you do...we're just trying to get you to see, the other side of the coin...if you can figure out, why your DIL or MIL is the way she is, you're much more able to understand her and not take her actions as personal...against you...but more so, her problem...and your son's or husbands, could have chosen anyone, but regardless who he married, there would be no pleasing her...and DIL's, MIL's understand, it's not you, but the way she is, what she believes to be true...and when you disagree with someone like that, it's like they think your telling them, all they're upbrings is wrong....and it scares people to be wrong..b/c they think your degrading them and they're whole network of beliefs...

So, I do understand what your saying...and I'm never ever going to be right, b/c you all think differently and have different situations....but when I'm writing, I'm not saying this is directed at you specifically, I'm viewing things from my perspectives, to try and see if maybe part of what I'm saying could be applied to your situations....it doesn't mean your wrong, or that I think your wrong, it means, I'm offering to you, some suggestions...that may or may not help your situations...

Please all of us, we must keep in mind, if we're here to help and heal and do better, then we must not take each others posts as if we're saying anyone is lying...b/c everyone's situation is very real and true...however, everyone who is posting has different ideas about one situation...that you might be writing about...and just b/c they are not saying, Oh, your absolutely right about your feelings, doesn't mean that you are not...you are...now lets look at this situation from all  perspectives...and I believe there have been some very good perspective bought forth on this forum...

DIL's here really helped me to stop and think before I react, that just b/c I'm the kind of person who would call her once a week, doesn't mean, she wants me to...isn't b/c I'm wrong, or right, but I want to respect who she is...so I  won't, I need to give her space...I will never be her best friend, not that I wouldn't like to, but there is a generation gap...and I'm ultra conservative...but she likes different music, she raises her daughter different, and I want to respect those wishes, even though I do things differently and that's what is important...harmony, peace and happiness...

but believe me, I'm no where near where some of you may think I am...and may never be....but I have to understand that, and let my son go forth in his life to do what he wishes, and I'll tell you, honestly, not many women, would allow like she allows my son, even if she disagrees and doesn't want him to do things, she is able to allow him to test the waters...and that is a huge huge ability. 

[cremebrulee]

When I am writing to anyone, it is not only venting, but reassuring my own self, about these things...writing like this is and can be a form of therapy...so, a lot of times, I"m not only replying to someones post, but also, reinstating them in my own mind...reinforcing them might be a better choice of words...and while sometimes, someone here may take it as if I'm talking to them, I'm simply reliving my experiences and reinforcing my very own changes in my mind...

[luise.volta]

We all need to keep in mind that we take what we want here and leave the rest. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another...but...it might. We don't have to agree to learn and grow. Sometimes the solutions of others can tend to reinforce our own stance and help up to stick with it.

My parents were born in the 1800s. You got married (at least in their social and cultural group) and that was that. What you liked or didn't like was not the point...finishing what you started was the point and if you were literally destroyed in the process, you were lauded at your early funeral for toting that barge and lifting that bale.

The social and cultural pendulum swings. And there are endless variations of the effect it has on individuals. What I hoped to create here, was a place to think it through...a place to share experiences and place to be heard and feel supported. There is no right way to do extended families or relate to adult children...we are all snowflakes, no two of us are alike. It also isn't the forum for everyone. There is no such forum, of course.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

I wanted to respond to some of these thoughts that were posted:

"It seems a lot of people that have come from broken homes repeat the pattern in their adult life.  It isn't necessarily that they purposely set out to get into a marriage they intend to end, but rather, I think people repeat the self-defeating behaviors they witnessed as children."

This is very true, I did this without even noticing it it was done on the subconscious level. But I was the family scapegoat growing up in my Family of Origin. I actually filled this role for my MIL quite naturally, did all the things a scapegoat would do and then resented being scapegoated. (not that I realized this at the time but in researching my part of the equation I can see this)

This definitely happens but where I differ from my MIL is that I am willing to take responsibility for myself, MIL on the other hand after doing things like 3 daycare abduction attempts, denying me access to my husband when in labour whilst gushing about how much love she has for us, nasty emails she wrote about me.....after all this my MIL will not even admit that she is even a little out of line. You can't even begin to work with someone like that.

"The language of some of the posts...they speak of abuse (which, when I was younger meant you were actually being hit, or being treated nearly as badly as a POW), manipulation, arrogance, etc.  What seems to be the cure (at least, the one I read of)?  Cutting off one's family!  In other words, continued divorce, of sorts. "

Some people are too quick to cut off but that is not true for everyone. I severely limited MIL contact to my children when MIL started to diagnose my 2 year old daughter with ailments that she did not have and then MIL would try and sneak medicine that she concaucted out of herbal remedies behind our backs. This is dangerous behavior, the psychological community calls it "Munchausen by Proxy". MIL also snuck our 2 year old out while we were napping at one point, we found them at the beach and MIL (who is not a good swimmer) was dipping our 2 year old (also not a good swimmer) in very deep water.

Sometimes the MIL (and I am talking about all MILs in general but my MIL happens to be a very derranged woman who refuses to get any medical attention or even try and make herself safe to be around). Sometimes the MIL is just too toxic to be around because she poses a danger to others around her.

Where does the cycle end?
For me it ends here, I do not allow MIL to abuse our children or our family anymore. MIL will not listen to boundaries, even fights for her "right" to be dysfunctional and I have in it MILs own writing that "she does not care who she offends she is not listening to our boundaries". Even the bible tells us that with people like this that you rebuke them, that is actually the biblical thing to do. That is due to my particular MILs own behavior, the natural consequences of what MIL has done to herself (even though she blames everyone else for it) with her own hand.

It ends by rebuking a person like my particular MIL and not letting her (she is like asbestos) into our home to make our family ill anymore.

"Eventually DIL become MIL.  It would be extremely naive to think the friction you're feeling won't happen to you."
Yes eventually I will become a MIL and when I do, I am going to learn what not to do from the woman that occupies the place of my MIL. I admit my wrongdoings, rather then be arrogant like my MIL....so I am not repeating MILs behavior,

So then if I am not repeating MILs behavior then why would I reap the same consequences that she has for her behavior? That is called enmeshment .

[cremebrulee]

I wanted to respond to some of these thoughts that were posted:

"It seems a lot of people that have come from broken homes repeat the pattern in their adult life.  It isn't necessarily that they purposely set out to get into a marriage they intend to end, but rather, I think people repeat the self-defeating behaviors they witnessed as children."

This is very true, I did this without even noticing it it was done on the subconscious level. But I was the family scapegoat growing up in my Family of Origin. I actually filled this role for my MIL quite naturally, did all the things a scapegoat would do and then resented being scapegoated. (not that I realized this at the time but in researching my part of the equation I can see this)

This definitely happens but where I differ from my MIL is that I am willing to take responsibility for myself, MIL on the other hand after doing things like 3 daycare abduction attempts, denying me access to my husband when in labour whilst gushing about how much love she has for us, nasty emails she wrote about me.....after all this my MIL will not even admit that she is even a little out of line. You can't even begin to work with someone like that.

"The language of some of the posts...they speak of abuse (which, when I was younger meant you were actually being hit, or being treated nearly as badly as a POW), manipulation, arrogance, etc.  What seems to be the cure (at least, the one I read of)?  Cutting off one's family!  In other words, continued divorce, of sorts. "

Some people are too quick to cut off but that is not true for everyone. I severely limited MIL contact to my children when MIL started to diagnose my 2 year old daughter with ailments that she did not have and then MIL would try and sneak medicine that she concaucted out of herbal remedies behind our backs. This is dangerous behavior, the psychological community calls it "Munchausen by Proxy". MIL also snuck our 2 year old out while we were napping at one point, we found them at the beach and MIL (who is not a good swimmer) was dipping our 2 year old (also not a good swimmer) in very deep water.

Sometimes the MIL (and I am talking about all MILs in general but my MIL happens to be a very derranged woman who refuses to get any medical attention or even try and make herself safe to be around). Sometimes the MIL is just too toxic to be around because she poses a danger to others around her.

Where does the cycle end?
For me it ends here, I do not allow MIL to abuse our children or our family anymore. MIL will not listen to boundaries, even fights for her "right" to be dysfunctional and I have in it MILs own writing that "she does not care who she offends she is not listening to our boundaries". Even the bible tells us that with people like this that you rebuke them, that is actually the biblical thing to do. That is due to my particular MILs own behavior, the natural consequences of what MIL has done to herself (even though she blames everyone else for it) with her own hand.

It ends by rebuking a person like my particular MIL and not letting her (she is like asbestos) into our home to make our family ill anymore.

"Eventually DIL become MIL.  It would be extremely naive to think the friction you're feeling won't happen to you."
Yes eventually I will become a MIL and when I do, I am going to learn what not to do from the woman that occupies the place of my MIL. I admit my wrongdoings, rather then be arrogant like my MIL....so I am not repeating MILs behavior,

So then if I am not repeating MILs behavior then why would I reap the same consequences that she has for her behavior? That is called enmeshment .

I just don't understand GWN, what makes people like your MIL?  And what I dislike even more is, they really don't listen and accept that maybe they have some ownership in the problem?  I don't get that....this MIL of yours sounds really awful....

[GreatWhiteNorth]

Well Creme-
She grew up in war times in Poland, in circumstances that I can probably never imagine and am forever greatful that I don't understand.

Some people come out of these sort of situations okay and others don't. My MILs is a case of arrested development, she functions emotionally at about the level of a 2.5-3 years old, so that is likely the age she was at when most likely none of her needs were met as a child and how she turned into who she is today.

We all go through hard times, but for the hard times to mold my MIL into the person she is today, those hard times would have to relentless and never ending. So I feel pity more then anything for my particular MIL, but that doesn't mean that I am equipped to handle her pathology either. I am simply not equipped and I can relate it to trying to save someone drowning when you can't swim, you just drown with them. If I don't detach from how MIL is I drown with her.

When I do that, I am not here for my family, for my kids, instead I am completely wrapped up in the pathology. If I can't handle MILs pathology and I am in my 30's, how can I expect my 6 and 4 year old to cope with it? They just can't, they are too little. They need to be kids, not be handed larger then life adult problems to deal with.

I am greatful that despite these challenges that my kids are healthy and happy kids that are growing up completely normal and blissfully unaware of MILs pathology, without her pathology hurting their family and place of security.