"Leave & Cleave" vs. Honor thy Mother(-in-law)

[Pen]

Pooh, it probably goes deeper than just the car, if you know what I mean. Many oldest children carry their resentment of sharing their parents with the "new" kids way into adulthood, even if they've always loved their sibs, and the "stuff" is just a tangible reminder.

It's a hard call as parents when our kids need our help. Some kids intrinsically have a work ethic and a gracious nature, and some don't. You have to know your child and adjust accordingly, I guess, but then you're guilty of not being fair. Who knows?

[Pooh]

You are very right Pen.  I am sure it goes much deeper than that with him.  Because of our age difference, financial situations were totally different during our raisings.  By the time I was 8, he was graduating and getting married.  Unfortunately, my parents struggled during his childhood to make ends meet.  They had both received great promotions and made much better money when I came along, so I got more than he did, as far as material things.

Although I can see the whys, he doesn't.  I think he carries a jealousy over it and I understand where he is coming from, but at the same time, he refuses to see the situation for what it was, simply they made better money.  I think he thinks that they loved me more and that is just not true. 

By the way, he is good to me to this day although he and I are totally different people.  But, money makes his world go round.  For example:  he didn't feel like attending my High School graduation so he bought me a $1000 tennis bracelet.  Needless to say, I returned the bracelet, my feelings hurt with a note that said, "Thanks, but I wanted you there."  He has never understood to this day how I could return that bracelet.

[miss_priss]

Pooh - I am facing that situation right now with my MIL.  She crossed some major boundaries and instead of an apology, she sent a box full of lavish gifts for DH and DD.  I want to return the gift to her or donate it to bring someone else some joy, but DH doesn't understand that.  He has a tendency to let money rule his world too, whereas I see the underlying principles involved. 

But if you HAD kept the bracelet, I bet you wouldn't have ever worn it, because you knew what it stood for.  Another case of darned if you do, darned if you don't.   

[Pooh]

Yes, it would be locked in a box somewhere.  But I couldn't even bring myself to do that.  I didn't want him to think he could "buy me".  I wanted him to know that I loved him for who he was, not what he could give me.  And I also wanted him to know that I saw him.  I saw the person he was, not the size of his wallet.

I will tell you, 20 years later, he still buys me lavish presents, but yet I think he has learned.  When I remarried in November last year, I called him and asked if he would be able to attend.  I told him I really, really wanted him to come because I had finally found someone that I truly loved.  He drove 12 hours to attend our wedding and brought me an expensive little camcorder as a present.  I made sure to tell him how much his "being" there meant to be, and thanked him for the present.  I told him I would use it to send him videos of my granddaughter, my son's Army grad and events he couldn't attend, and that is what I have done.  I email him videos of our life, to keep in touch.

So, I no longer return his presents, because I realize that he has learned that it is him that I truly love, not his presents.  By attending the wedding, his present became just that.  A gift.  And although he still spends a lot of money on presents, I also know this makes him happy to give big presents.  But when I was younger, his presents were a way of apologizing without saying he was sorry.  Big difference. 

[Pooh]

And Priss, that's why I wanted you to return the gifts.  Your MIL hasn't learned yet.

[miss_priss]

I totally agree, she hasn't yet learned that a gift is acceptable in leiu of a sincere apology.  DH realizes that as well, but we're still just stuck on what to do with the gift.  He's still afraid of "making her mad" by returning/donating the gift.  I can't do it without his approval, which I have thought about.  I thought about just boxing it up and sending it back while he was at work, but that wouldn't only cause him anger towards me...and that's exactly what she's always wanted.  So now it's just sitting there, on the dining table....a big awkward elephant in the room.   

[luise.volta]

Maybe you could put it away someplace (the zoo?) and when she asks if you got it...you could say that there was no apology enclosed, so you were still waiting for her communication. Would DH OK that? He can't remain in terror of her forever, (I hope.) Sending love...

[GreatWhiteNorth]

I must say, I am rather enjoying this discussion board, it adds a new element to get both sides (MIL and DIL) to the story and I appreciate the openness here of welcoming everyone.

Now that the side note is done, I wanted to respond to what to do with the unwanted gifts.

My MIL is a very cheap gift giver, even though she is quite weathy. For instance after my DH spent about 30G of his own money renovating her cottage her "thank you" gift was a bag of dried apricots from Costco. I am not saying that I expect anything from her but I think my MIL cheapness with her gifts has actually helped the situation. You know those packets of peanuts you get on an airplane, MIL usually saves those from her many trips a year and gives those as Christmas gifts.

What I usually do with anything that MIL "gifts" to us is something called "black holing it" see if you return it that gives them negative attention which is a reward because it is negative N supply. You are only going to get more of these gifts this way

What you do is find somewhere out of the way to store it, keep it there for a while. Wait until everyone has forgotten about it and then you can throw it away at that point. That way no-one gets any attention from the gifts and you don't have the "elephant" in your home. Think of the place out of the way to store it as the zoo Louise mentioned.

I "black hole" the really insulting gifts (like MIL buying me books on Jesus to save my wicked soul) by just leaving them at whereever it was we were given them, not even giving them the attention of bringing them home.

But maybe it is easier when your MIL gives gifts the way mine does, perhaps.

Sometimes MIL uses gifts to exclude our son, at a birthday she will buy something for only the girl grandkids, has a gift for every child there except our son. We have actually explained to our daughter that we have to give the gift back in those cases, and that although it appears that she is being nice, she is really not being nice, she is using this gift to start creating wedges between her and her brother and resentment between them by blatently only thinking of one of them.

I would definitely see the gift for what it is, Ns typically use them for dishonest means, to cause negative attention.

It is one of those things that looks nice on the outside but really is not nice at all, kind of like when some MILs have food boundary issues and insist on overtaking your fridge with their leftovers. I have seem many a DIL get caught in that trap. It looks like the dysfunctional MIL is only trying to help right? I guess food would be another "gift" example.

Just to add to this...

I do appologize to all the nice MILs out there, I don't paint all with the same brush or believe that my MIL does these things because she is a MIL specifically, she is a dysfunctional person period. Probably was one similar to some of the dysfunctional DILs that some of you have when she was a DIL.

Probably how I can relate to some of you with the shoe on the other foot, where the DIL is the problem.

[Pooh]

Great idea Luise!  And GreatWhite, I love your "black hole" solution.  Geniuses...I tell ya...just geniuses!

[luise.volta]

Thanks!  It looks to me like we have distilled the gift thing down pretty well and what is left is DHs inability to stand up and be counted...due to his fear of his mother's emotional baggage and how it is used as weaponry.  A united front is needed. Counseling may help but she is "winning" as long as he waffles. Sending love...

[pam1]

I totally agree, she hasn't yet learned that a gift is acceptable in leiu of a sincere apology.  DH realizes that as well, but we're still just stuck on what to do with the gift.  He's still afraid of "making her mad" by returning/donating the gift.  I can't do it without his approval, which I have thought about.  I thought about just boxing it up and sending it back while he was at work, but that wouldn't only cause him anger towards me...and that's exactly what she's always wanted.  So now it's just sitting there, on the dining table....a big awkward elephant in the room.   

Can you put it in the closet or somewhere away from sight?  It's still the elephant in the closet but you've got it out of the way.  I think if it's out of sight, out of mind and DH may just forget about it. 

One of the things the counselor said that really resonated with me was that *we* have to find someway to minimize her impact in our household.  She is causing us to fight by the gifts, the manipulations etc.  If we don't fight or talk about X and move on, she loses.  So applying the gift example to your sitch, if you put it away, it's out of sight, out of mind, she loses.  And you and DH aren't fighting.  Simply don't put any emphasis on this box, put it away.

[miss_priss]

Thanks so much WW.  I've done as you've advised and placed the box of stuff in the top of the closet in the spare bedroom (It's our "black hole").  I told DH I was doing it, and he did not understand how it "resolves" anything...and can you believe this...he actually asked me if he could take the items out of the box that were meant for him!  He said "well, I really need some new work pants, I don't see what it's hurting anything for me to use them." 

Ugh, I give.   

[Pooh]

Bless your heart Priss.   Ok, since he is not "getting it" at this moment and not presenting a united front on this issue, then you have done what you can. 

Now I see this.  You have placed the box in the "black hole", and you could tell him, "This is where I am placing things like this from your Mother from now on.  I can not accept the gifts in lieu of an apology and will not empower her.  If you choose to get in the box and use things, that is your decision, but I will not participate.  I will not be angry with you for doing it because that is your choice.  But any backlash or situations created by your decision to participate, will be yours to solve.  I love you."

Then let it go and if she waltzes back in because of the gift, then force him to deal with her by walking away.  Maybe if he has to do this a few times, he will get it?

[GreatWhiteNorth]

The purpose of the "black hole" is not give any attention to the gift. If she is a Narcissist then she is looking for attention, positive or negative and using inappropriate gifts as a possible way to drum up N supply (attention).

The black hole is where the inappropriate gift is deposited after it is received, no attention is to be given to the gift throughout the "black holing process". The black hole is a spot for the gift to be so that ample time can pass so the said gift is forgotten about. If you are asked directly for the black holed gift, you can produce it (thus no negative attention of "where is the gift").

After a bit of time has passed, simply go to the nearest value shop and donate it.

The whole purpose is to give zero attention to the inappropriate gift as that is likely the whole point of her giving it in the first place, even the bafflement of getting the gift is attention.

So next gift you get, say no words and just deposit it into the black hole......it is simple process that gets easier with time.

I have gotten so good at doing this with MILs inappropriate gifts that they get dropped off at the value shop still wrapped. MIL caught on the value shop I dropped them off at and started to write their full names in the inappropriate gifts in permanent black marker. So I made the writings illegibile before dropping it off.

If MIL hands me an inappropriate gift directly (usually this means she has something for our daughter only but nothing for our son) I black hole it right beside me, leave it on the floor and don't take it with us when we leave. No attention granted....

MIL did this same tactic with my daughters birthday cake, same principal, it was an inappropriate gift.

We had already made a birthday cake and MIL asked if she could make one as well. My DH said no thank you, we already have a cake. Since MIL does not listen to the word "no" she proceeded to make this cake.  FIL must have gotten into it because by the time she presented it to my husband it was a half eaten birthday cake. My husband again said no thank you so MIL freezes it in her freezer. My daugthers birthday is in November.

In March it is BILs birthday, so what does MIL bring. She takes this apple meringue cake she made for my daughter out of the freezer and writes on it "Happy birthday (my Daughters name)" just to make it clear that she had this cake for my DD.

I didn't even see the writing, my husband cut the cake so that the writing was not visible, and there was no attention granted for the inappropriate cake....

So there are lots of ways to black hole things really.

[miss_priss]

GWN - If I had about half of your courage I think I'd be just fine.  You've really got this black-holing thing down. 

It's easier when your DH is on-board with the plan though.  Mine isn't, at all.  He still sees no problem in "accepting" the gift, but not accepting it as an apology.  In other words, he thinks we should just say "thank you", use the gift, and when she tries to slither her way in with said gifts, tell her "thanks, but your gift was not an acceptable form of apology." 

I'm completely with you on the black-holing and other methods of discarding the gift (donation, etc)...the problem is that DH thinks I am not handling his mother the right way.  I don't know how or when he will see that HIS method of "handling" his mother obviously hasn't worked...or we wouldn't have this problem to begin with!

It's frustrating....