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Problem Solving => Daughter in Laws and/or Son in Laws => Topic started by: BlueLotus on July 08, 2015, 01:01:37 am

Title: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: BlueLotus on July 08, 2015, 01:01:37 am
 
My DFH and I have been together for almost five years, engaged for a four months. Things have been tough recently. Ever since we've started dating, his mother seems stand offish and uncaring, no matter how hard I try to be nice. He has always assured me that fmil loves me but her passive aggression and lies makes me think not. My fdh is in denial. My family and friends also sense something strange. There is some codependency issues. Also FMIL has a terrible relationship with her MIL to the point she says in front of DFH and I "why can't she just die already?". It's hard to hear .. Please ladies. I've reached out, been kind and polite.. give me advice or at least let me know I'm not alone.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: jdtm on July 08, 2015, 05:04:42 am
QuoteI've reached out, been kind and polite


Good for you!  Now sit back and smile - from when I sit, it appears that the "ball" is in your fmil's court.  It appears the relationship you want will not happen - really, that's O.K. - as your first obligation is to your future husband.  Sometimes, it just is what it is.

Personally, my (now deceased) MIL was a wonderful woman and I loved her dearly.  My (also deceased) FIL was very difficult and self-centered.  Whenever we had family holidays, I made sure that I was never alone with him or near him (if possible) and I kept my opinions to myself.  It worked - kept this up for several decades (since he did not like me, he did not want to be near me either).  I did this for my husband and his mother.  It was what it was.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: gettingoldandcranky on July 08, 2015, 06:46:03 am
i am in the situation with my dil.  everything seemed good until the grandbabies came. now the claws come out.  she puts up roadblocks on most visits and contacts.  at this point, when we do get to visit or talk, i just act the best i can, never make negative comments or ask for more contact.  can't say i miss you - it's been so long - nothing.  anything sets her and my ds off.
just happy, happy mom and enjoy what i get and move along.  trying not to think of how long until we see them again.
her family?  always there - always involved.  why?  really believe it is jealousy.  her husband's family loses - her husband loses - her kids lose.
there are a whole bunch of people who love them and want to see them.
sorry for going on.
just be yourself with your mil - take what she gives as a relationship.  and decide if it hurts too much to move along......
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Lillycache on July 08, 2015, 08:12:33 am
Quoteshe puts up roadblocks on most visits and contacts.  at this point, when we do get to visit or talk, i just act the best i can, never make negative comments or ask for more contact.  can't say i miss you - it's been so long - nothing.  anything sets her and my ds off.
just happy, happy mom and enjoy what i get and move along.  trying not to think of how long until we see them again.


So is this fun?  Are you enjoying it?..   I think we have to come to a point that the hurt and the stress of walking on eggshells far outweighs any benefits we are getting.   There comes a time when we need to think of ourselves.  No matter how much we wish things were different, we have no control over that.   Getting to the point of bowing out and worrying about our own lives is difficult.. but it can be done. 
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: BlueLotus on July 08, 2015, 11:16:51 am
Quote from: jdtm on July 08, 2015, 05:04:42 am
QuoteI've reached out, been kind and polite


Good for you!  Now sit back and smile - from when I sit, it appears that the "ball" is in your fmil's court.  It appears the relationship you want will not happen - really, that's O.K. - as your first obligation is to your future husband.  Sometimes, it just is what it is.

Personally, my (now deceased) MIL was a wonderful woman and I loved her dearly.  My (also deceased) FIL was very difficult and self-centered.  Whenever we had family holidays, I made sure that I was never alone with him or near him (if possible) and I kept my opinions to myself.  It worked - kept this up for several decades (since he did not like me, he did not want to be near me either).  I did this for my husband and his mother.  It was what it was.


You are right, but when I back off for a while.. and make my fdh and Foo a priority she makes a point to mention it to dfh and I. We live almost two hours away but we are moving closer this weekend. It's really expensive where she lives, so we chose the same town as my foo. We will be 25 minutes away from her, much closer but all she says is how happy my Foo must be. Her friend who I didn't know came up to me and said "so you two are moving near your family, huh. I guess it's the woman who always wins!"
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: luise.volta on July 08, 2015, 11:33:29 am
Welcome, B. We ask all new members to go to our HomePage and under Read Me First to read the five posts placed there for you. Please pay special attention to the Forum agreement to be sure it's a fit. We are a monitored Website.

Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: BlueLotus on July 08, 2015, 11:38:12 am
   I feel as though she only wants a relationship with her ds only.  She wants me around so he's around. I'd be okay with that if she wasn't bad-mouthing me to other family members. An example- I cook and clean, but sometimes dfh likes to bbq. That translates to him having to do all the cooking in her mind. She has told other family members things like this,  and it is awkward having to explain myself to them. When I mention anything to my dfh, he says she doesn't mean any harm.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: BlueLotus on July 08, 2015, 11:42:19 am
Thank you, LV.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Lillycache on July 08, 2015, 11:56:08 am
Quote from: BlueLotus on July 08, 2015, 11:38:12 am
   I feel as though she only wants a relationship with her ds only.  She wants me around so he's around. I'd be okay with that if she wasn't bad-mouthing me to other family members. An example- I cook and clean, but sometimes dfh likes to bbq. That translates to him having to do all the cooking in her mind. She has told other family members things like this,  and it is awkward having to explain myself to them. When I mention anything to my dfh, he says she doesn't mean any harm.


Guess I'm not really clear on what sort of advise you are looking for.     Sometimes there is no solution and two people don't mix.    My DIL and I have not seen one another for 5 years.   My son comes to see us regularly and brings the kids.  We see them for Thanksgiving while she goes to her FOO... and they are by us Christmas Eve and by her FOO Christmas Day..   It's a solution that works in our case... it makes both of us happy..  It makes my son happy too as he no longer feels he is in the middle.  We are all relaxed when we are together and no one feels they have to watch every word or monitor for insults or innuendos, and can enjoy the visit.   It may not be the solution for everyone, but in our case, after many years of discomfort.. it works just fine.   
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: BlueLotus on July 08, 2015, 12:16:40 pm
I think that solution is probably what will eventually happen. I just don't think it's fair or right to split up a family on holidays to make others happy. My dfh hates going anywhere without me on holidays. I don't know if I'd be comfortable with spending holidays away from my own children just because fMIL doesn't want a good relationship with me.. My DFH and I always talk about how great it would be to host our own thanksgivings, and Christmas'.I remember us mentioning that at her house one day, and she glared and walked out of the room. I don't understand why. It does not make any sense to me. Isn't that what couples talk about?
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Lillycache on July 08, 2015, 01:58:58 pm
Quote from: BlueLotus on July 08, 2015, 12:16:40 pm
I think that solution is probably what will eventually happen. I just don't think it's fair or right to split up a family on holidays to make others happy. My dfh hates going anywhere without me on holidays. I don't know if I'd be comfortable with spending holidays away from my own children just because fMIL doesn't want a good relationship with me.. My DFH and I always talk about how great it would be to host our own thanksgivings, and Christmas'.I remember us mentioning that at her house one day, and she glared and walked out of the room. I don't understand why. It does not make any sense to me. Isn't that what couples talk about?


Well, as I said, it's not a solution everyone can reach... It works for us because my son wants to maintain relationship with his FOO too..  and it wasn't possible with her and I..    I DO give her credit for being adult enough to realize that it was important for her husband and children to maintain a relationship with his side of the family.. despite the fact that she and I will never be able to get along.    As I said.. it may not work for everyone, but does for us.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: BlueLotus on July 08, 2015, 02:22:14 pm
If you don't mind me asking, what happened between you two to reach that solution?
I think it's important for adult children to be with their foo on holidays, but I also think it's important for a marriage and family to have a few of their own traditions as well. My parents divorced when I was young and holidays had to be split up because of this. I hated that growing up. My father only stuck around a few years after the divorce. But I still had to go visit my gma on his side without my mother on Christmas eve and my sister, brother and I hated it. My Dfh grew to really hate his gma. I don't want to give up so quickly, but I don't want to have expectations from her emotionally either. When do you call it quits?
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Lillycache on July 08, 2015, 03:10:45 pm
Quote from: BlueLotus on July 08, 2015, 02:22:14 pm
If you don't mind me asking, what happened between you two to reach that solution?
I think it's important for adult children to be with their foo on holidays, but I also think it's important for a marriage and family to have a few of their own traditions as well. My parents divorced when I was young and holidays had to be split up because of this. I hated that growing up. My father only stuck around a few years after the divorce. But I still had to go visit my gma on his side without my mother on Christmas eve and my sister, brother and I hated it. My Dfh grew to really hate his gma. I don't want to give up so quickly, but I don't want to have expectations from her emotionally either. When do you call it quits?


Actually,   She and my son were married for 10 years and had 3 kids when the split happened.  Up until that point, I believed that everything was fine between us.  The split happened when I stupidly sent her a friend request on FB and she didn't respond.  When I asked her why, she blew up like a roman candle and began reciting all the horrible things that I had supposedly done and said over a 10 year period.  Things I had no idea were a problem.. Words led to words... there was an enormous argument.  She said things to me that I can NEVER forgive her for.. and that was the end..  She will never be  allowed in my home again.  Nearly a year went by without me seeing my grand kids.. This really bothered my son.. and I  don't know what transpired between them, or what agreement they reached, and I have never asked,  but he began bringing the kids over, and he began splitting up the holidays between her and her family.. and he and the kids and us.   I never begged him too.. I was well prepared to never see him again.. and he knows me well enough to know I meant it.    It's been working fine..
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Green Thumb on July 08, 2015, 05:46:49 pm
You say your fiance is in denial of how his mommy is. Is that correct? Does he stand up for you, speak up for you, when she is putting you down?

The advice I might give is to accept that this is how it will always be, between you, fiance, and his mother. She is never going to be nice or loving. You may want to google narcissistic family dynamics and see if any of the traits fit your situation. You have no power to change the  mother, you can only change how you act and react and think about this situation. It is not personal towards you. She would act this way with any other fiance her son brings home. It is not about you, it about what is inside of her. One can make peace with that notion and detach and accept it for what it is -- or one can fight reality and experience arguments, unhappiness and heartache in dealing with her.

It is possible that your finance has been trained since childhood not to rock the boat with mom and to cater to her every emotion and whim, simply because that is how it is and how she demands it. He may have low self esteem if she used the verbal "put down" technique to control him as a child. If he is enmeshed and his goal is to make mommy happy rather than face her wrath, this is what you have to expect from him. Every time mommy has an emotional fit to get her way, to control the family, to divide and conquer your marriage, this may bring huge stress into your marriage. Your power is inside yourself and how you react and how realistic your expectations are for your fiance.

Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: BlueLotus on July 08, 2015, 09:00:07 pm
Quote from: Lillycache on July 08, 2015, 03:10:45 pm


Actually,   She and my son were married for 10 years and had 3 kids when the split happened.  Up until that point, I believed that everything was fine between us.  The split happened when I stupidly sent her a friend request on FB and she didn't respond.  When I asked her why, she blew up like a roman candle and began reciting all the horrible things that I had supposedly done and said over a 10 year period.  Things I had no idea were a problem.. Words led to words... there was an enormous argument.  She said things to me that I can NEVER forgive her for.. and that was the end..  She will never be  allowed in my home again.


  Thats wrong for her to bottle up and hide her feelings. We can't read each others minds. When you say supposedly do you mean she was making up stories? And she turned around and said horrible things back to you? Was it a personal attack? I'm glad you get to see your grandchildren, and it hasn't ruined your relationship with them, or your son. Has she ever tried apologizing, or vice versa?

  I'm friends with my FMIL on FB and honestly I have been a little more careful about what I say because anything I posted would turn into something negative. I love to bake, its a passion of mine. I have all the pictures of everything that I bake. She has turned it into "FDH does all the cooking, and BlueLotus only bakes bad foods". I don't do it all the time, just if I have some free time. My FDH loves that I cook and bake, it's something he does boast about to everyone. My FMIL has put down my FDH about gaining a couple Lbs when he started his desk job. He is very fit. It sounded crazy to me that she would say that. She blamed my baking in a subtle way. His whole family hates heavy people and are always on new diets. My DFH and I are extremely active and eat pretty healthy but we don't put restrictions on ourselves.

Each thanksgiving and sometimes xmas I'd bring a pie I have for 3 yrs now. I did it the first yr because it was requested. Last thanksgiving my FDH was on the phone with his parents, I heard him say I was making pies again. We walk in with pies, and FMIL says "oh! I had no clue you were making pies! I decided to make a one, I hadn't in years!" all the IL's had a grin on their face. I know my DFH had told both of them. When he brought that up she said she forgot. At first it didn't bug me, almost everyone tried my pies, I got to bring the rest home, but now looking back with everything else she does it is a little strange. I'm just baking for m family only from now on. 

Was she trying to compete? Was it her way of bonding? Did my help and contribution turn into a resentment? Is this all a game to her? Why do I care? I don't feel MILs or DILs should be in competition, they should work together as a team. We're all adults. There is enough love to go around. Even with the things she's done, she does have a sweet side sometimes and I really do love and care about her. I don't think its right that your DIL was so hurtful. I'm sorry for the long reply. I feel much better getting this all out and hearing all the wonderful advice. I think acceptance will be difficult for me.. I know its what I need to do. Thank you all for your support and knowledge. It is really appreciated.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: BlueLotus on July 08, 2015, 09:20:35 pm
Quote from: Green Thumb on July 08, 2015, 05:46:49 pm
You say your fiance is in denial of how his mommy is. Is that correct? Does he stand up for you, speak up for you, when she is putting you down?

The advice I might give is to accept that this is how it will always be, between you, fiance, and his mother. She is never going to be nice or loving. You may want to google narcissistic family dynamics and see if any of the traits fit your situation. You have no power to change the  mother, you can only change how you act and react and think about this situation. It is not personal towards you. She would act this way with any other fiance her son brings home. It is not about you, it about what is inside of her. One can make peace with that notion and detach and accept it for what it is -- or one can fight reality and experience arguments, unhappiness and heartache in dealing with her.

It is possible that your finance has been trained since childhood not to rock the boat with mom and to cater to her every emotion and whim, simply because that is how it is and how she demands it. He may have low self esteem if she used the verbal "put down" technique to control him as a child. If he is enmeshed and his goal is to make mommy happy rather than face her wrath, this is what you have to expect from him. Every time mommy has an emotional fit to get her way, to control the family, to divide and conquer your marriage, this may bring huge stress into your marriage. Your power is inside yourself and how you react and how realistic your expectations are for your fiance.


  I have recently started to point out some of the things she has said. He minimizes it, gets angry and kind of defends her. He has stuck up for me once or twice. But most of the time its as if he doesn't hear her. He makes me feel crazy, or too sensitive. She has hated all of his past girlfriends, has even got into huge fights with a few. When we started dating my fiance moved out of his parents, and  got a great job, and we have been building a nice life together. She claims she likes me... I think it does have more to do with her than me. I think my FDH is a little brainwashed.  His entire family will repeat her words, as if its their own. She gets each family member to talk to the other, convince them to do this and that. She will ask my DFH talk to FBIL, and FFIL to talk to my DFH. When My fiances brother, or father talk to him about something, you almost always know its really her wants and wishes being expressed. She is very controlling. She told my mother that it was their job to guide us in life and with decisions we make, my mother said she will support us in the decisions we make. There is a difference. I know I can only focus on my reaction, but I just don't know how to react at this point.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: luise.volta on July 08, 2015, 09:31:02 pm
I like the saying: "What you think of me is none of my business."
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Green Thumb on July 09, 2015, 04:53:27 am
Again, everything you write shows a difficult, mean woman. It is not about you and you can't change it. You will find more examples of her competition and hateful comments as time goes by. This is how it is and there is nothing you can do but avoid her and protect yourself and accept her behavior as reality. It won't change and she will never be nice. It's not about you so don't take it personally.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Lillycache on July 09, 2015, 04:58:11 am
Quote from: Green Thumb on July 09, 2015, 04:53:27 am
Again, everything you write shows a difficult, mean woman. It is not about you and you can't change it. You will find more examples of her competition and hateful comments as time goes by. This is how it is and there is nothing you can do but avoid her and protect yourself and accept her behavior as reality. It won't change and she will never be nice. It's not about you so don't take it personally.


How can you be so sure about this?  Do you know the other side of the story?  There usually are three sides..  The two parties involved....... and the truth.     Every single one of us filters the truth to fit our personal agenda to some degree.. I fully admit to that..  My truth certainly differs from my DILs truth..  It doesn't mean one or the other is lying... it simply means they experience the reality of the situation differently. 
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Green Thumb on July 09, 2015, 05:21:02 am
Some things are universal personality traits/ dysfunctions, unless you think OP is making this up or coloring things to her benefit?

To the original poster, you are describing classic narcissistic family dynamics. My inlaws are very similar to a what you write about, this is how I know and recognize the behavior. The enmeshment, the triangulation and the manipulation sounds very familiar. Get educated on this dysfunction and see if you still feel the way you do or if you are seeing it with fresh eyes. Then decide what you want to do as you still have choices.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Lillycache on July 09, 2015, 05:42:14 am
QuoteSome things are universal personality traits/ dysfunctions, unless you think OP is making this up or coloring things to her benefit?


I'm not saying she is... but I'm not saying she isn't..  Don't most people color things to their benefit?..   And even on forums such as these... the responses are predictable..  depending on what side of the fence a person calls home.   
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Pooh on July 09, 2015, 09:43:01 am
Welcome BL.  I'm going to phrase a couple of questions back to you based on my own experience.  Let's take all the emotions out of this and deal with the facts as you presented.

1. MIL is not the most pleasant person and treats you badly, especially to family.  I can pretty much guarantee, this means that is her personality and you are not going to change it.  Once you marry him, unfortunately, it probably will get worse.  Because then you will be dealing with a wedding, possible children, which means more holiday things, etc.

2.  Future DH is not standing up for you.  Yes, you said he had a couple of times, but looks like the majority of the time he brushes off your complaints about his Mother.  I have always said, in my opinion, the DH plays a MAJOR role in the relationship or non-relationship between a DIL and MIL.  When your DH doesn't stand up for you to his Mother, he's basically telling her it is ok to treat you this way.  On the other side, if you said or did something to his Mother that was uncalled for, he should be speaking to you about it.  The problem is when a DH doesn't take a stand at all, and then later...after you bring it up to him, if he did then....then the MIL gets to put the blame back on you.  "He's only going along with her because she whined about it."  No win situation for you.

This is how it was with my Ex.  He never stood up to her when she was treating me badly and then would agree with me behind closed doors and make excuses for her.  I grew to resent him as much or more so than I did MIL.  Don't get me wrong, I also would have fully expected he should have called me out if I was mean to her.  By the time I finally was mean to her and he said something, it was too late.  I was mad at him for calling me out when in 15 years he had never called her out when I was being nice...so it fell on deaf ears and I could have cared less what he said at that point.

So the questions to you are, "Can you accept right now that MIL is probably going to continue this behavior and that he is never going to stand up for you and not resent him for it?"  "Can you deal with the fact that if you do choose to not deal with MIL that he might still want to have a relationship with her, including taking your possible children to see her without you and actually encourage it?"

I ask those questions, because you not only have an MIL problem, but a future DH problem as well.  Trust me, in the beginning of my dating and relationship with Ex, I knew how she was and that he didn't take up for me.  I brushed it off because "I luvvved him" and he was good to me so it was no big deal.  It ended up being a really big deal because I didn't realize how badly his behavior was going to affect my relationship with his family.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Pooh on July 09, 2015, 09:46:17 am
P.S.  I'm not trying to say you shouldn't be in your relationship with DH, only that you need to know ahead of time what you will most likely be dealing with and can you handle that?
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: BlueLotus on July 09, 2015, 01:48:26 pm
Quote from: Pooh on July 09, 2015, 09:46:17 am
P.S.  I'm not trying to say you shouldn't be in your relationship with DH, only that you need to know ahead of time what you will most likely be dealing with and can you handle that?


No, you are spot on. Its hard for me to answer that question. I know I wont be happy if it continues. I feel like we need pre marriage counseling. There was one time, about 2 months ago. I was a little short with her and kept the kitchen island between us. I look back and I was subconsciously trying to protect myself from her. My fiance was upset that I was so "cold" to his mother. It upset me, because the last few years she had been that way to me and I got really good at keeping a smile on my face. This time was different, and I was the bad guy. I said nothing rude, I just wasn't giving her every little detail of our lives. My fiance already tells her everything, but some reason she likes to pretend she doesn't know about something and asks me about it.

And I agree with you Lilly, there are always 2 sides to a story. Im sure her reality is a little different than my own, because she raised my DH and feels she should still be the one he answers to first, and she feels its her job to mold and shape our lives. Pick out furniture, Still get FDH's mail sent her her, etc. I think she feels I keep him away, when im the one who reminds him to call her. I always bug him about doing something nice with/for his mom.. but it gets hard. I want a good relationship with her, but I think she is repeating drama she had with her own MIL. I hope it doesnt get worse after we marry.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: luise.volta on July 09, 2015, 02:14:17 pm
In my case I thought it wouldn't get worse after we married. I even hoped marriage would somehow make it better. Neither came to be...it got much worse! I wasn't able to take it continually and forever and I was sorry I walked into a card game with a loaded deck. There was no way I could win. I had a romantic dream I just couldn't maintain and it became a nightmare!
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Green Thumb on July 09, 2015, 03:51:30 pm
I don't know if my story will have value for you but it is different from the first two in that my first husband disliked his mother but he was the scapegoat in the family and his two younger siblings were each the favorite of his mom or his dad. My ex husband's attitude was that no one told him what to do, he is just as narcissistic as her, so he would not take any crap from her if it disrupted his life. But still, the stress of dealing with someone who did not consider other people's feelings was always there. We'd have to make our battle plan which took emotional energy and see if when he would tell her no, she'd accept it or ramp up her crap.


The second husbands family are all narcissists and take it to huge extremes. The adult children are still fighting each other for the love they did not get in childhood and to be the golden child. My current husband is the scapegoat and they treat him so shabbily, really put him down. Sometimes I am also the scapegoat but I don't care so it affects me little. It has scarred him terrible and he is in counseling now to deal with it. They call names, triangulate information like you have described, and put each other down behind your back and to your face. The aunts and uncles and grandparents have all removed any consequences for the grandchildren -- not for their own children but the children of their sibling. We got drug and alcohol abuse throughout the family, adult children and grandchildren. 


So how this affects our marriage is the stress the family members put forth in how they treat everyone and the toxicity of these relationships. The learned behavior of my spouse in growing up like this == learned behavior that is toxic to our marriage. This is how I recognize much of what you write. You might want to read Raised by Narcissists on Reddit.com.



Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Monroe on July 09, 2015, 05:15:33 pm
Quote from: Pooh on July 09, 2015, 09:43:01 am

   I have always said, in my opinion, the DH plays a MAJOR role in the relationship or non-relationship between a DIL and MIL.  When your DH doesn't stand up for you to his Mother, he's basically telling her it is ok to treat you this way.  On the other side, if you said or did something to his Mother that was uncalled for, he should be speaking to you about it. 



Pooh - I agree that the DS/DH plays a major role.   In our situation, both my husband and I reached out and welcomed the then-GF, who later became our DIL, with open arms.  She gave us the cold shoulder from the beginning, even before the wedding, and after a few years of marriage, it was full-blown snub.  So now I ignore her.  On the rare occasions we even talk with DS, I don't bother even asking about her. 

I do feel that when they were dating and first married and she snubbed us, that by not standing up for us, DS was basically  telling her it was OK to treat us like that.  So we were disappointed in him not standing up for us. 

Only worse thought is that maybe he DID stand up for us, and she cares so little for what even HE thinks that she STILL treats us this way.  Either way, her cold treatment of us has damaged our relationship with him. 

Which is so sad, as he was the cutest, sweetest little boy in the world.  I miss him. 
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: love3 on July 09, 2015, 07:58:34 pm
Blue Lotus , I am a dil also in your situation. Our stories actually sound identical ! My mil is ALOT like  yours , she wanted to pick out everything for our place when we moved to a new place. She is totally a want to be molder or trys to be . She would try so hard to get me to have her old furniture even after I told her I had everything picked out. She wanted to control still and kept asking same with bills . I NEVER let her pick out or give us furniture or buy us any. After we got our own , she gave up pestering about furniture . I think it funny how mil's actually think its ok to come in and redecorate to her liking which is the total opposite of mine that's where the molding comes in . Mil's need to understand they are not the women of the house anymore and need to respect the dil as an adult. The mil would not go into their own friends house , or even their own mil house to take over and re-decorate (that's where the respect comes in) . Sure they can suggest ideas and you can listen to them, but remember you are in charge and have no obligation to do what she says. It was hard for me at first to say no because she always talked really nice to me (even though she secretly hates me) and THAT was the guilt trip most mil are famous for. But I always stood my ground and stayed there , you have to if you want to be respected and protect yourself . Don't worry about what she thinks , because you will never be good enough in her eyes . Be the strong real person you know you are and don't let her tell you how to live your life. As for your dh ,... my dh was the same way at first he was scared and couldn't say no to his mom in order to not hurt her feelings and face the guilt trip... SO I then started tell her no myself ! And she would have to listen and accept it. Now my dh has no problem saying "no" to his mom since I started doing it myself he also got more comfortable to stand up to her. If your dh wont step up to the plate then you have to do it , its YOUR life , YOUR marriage .
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: gettingoldandcranky on July 10, 2015, 06:31:44 am


Only worse thought is that maybe he DID stand up for us, and she cares so little for what even HE thinks that she STILL treats us this way.  Either way, her cold treatment of us has damaged our relationship with him. 

Which is so sad, as he was the cutest, sweetest little boy in the world.  I miss him.
[/quote]

Monroe - hope i quoted you correctly.  this is exactly how i feel.  after yrs of cold DIL, our DS just goes along and tells me I'm wrong when i call her out.  so i have just given up and now keep my mouth shut.  but i do, always, miss the sweet boy and adult and the love that he showed to us before DIL took over.  will never understand the why
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Lillycache on July 10, 2015, 07:09:20 am
Seems so much like a double standards.  When a woman loves her mom and dad and wants to spend time with them.. that's just fine... and normal.   When her husband does.. he's a mommas boy.. or immature  or brainwashed or any combination.  I have been reading different forums for years.  It appears that nearly all the husbands have had mean mothers and horrible upbringings.   Not to say that some don't, but ALL of them?  So it brings me to the question..  Just what happens to women when they give birth to males that turns them into manipulative shrews?  Maybe it's the influx of male fetal hormones?  Just a thought..  lol!!!
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Monroe on July 10, 2015, 07:52:01 am
Quote from: gettingoldandcranky on July 10, 2015, 06:31:44 am


Only worse thought is that maybe he DID stand up for us, and she cares so little for what even HE thinks that she STILL treats us this way.  Either way, her cold treatment of us has damaged our relationship with him. 

Which is so sad, as he was the cutest, sweetest little boy in the world.  I miss him.


Monroe - hope i quoted you correctly.  this is exactly how i feel.  after yrs of cold DIL, our DS just goes along and tells me I'm wrong when i call her out.  so i have just given up and now keep my mouth shut.  but i do, always, miss the sweet boy and adult and the love that he showed to us before DIL took over.  will never understand the why
[/quote]

Yes, you quoted me correctly.  The only difference in our situations is that my DH and I never called her out.  We have just pretended for years that everything is fine.  It is exhausting to be around either of them with that elephant in the room.   

It is a no-win situation, as you have discovered.   DIL is rude, MIL calls her out, DS gets mad at MIL.  OR . . .  DIL is rude, MIL and FIL say nothing, DS does nothing. 

Either result is unsatisfactory.  The only advantage to our approach is that DS cannot tell us we are wrong, because we have never said anything.  That is only very small satisfaction. 

It is exhausting to be around either of them - the best has been to move on with our own lives - do the things we couldn't afford to do when raising a family - I don't think things will ever change with them.   My loss.   
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Lillycache on July 10, 2015, 08:06:36 am
Quote from: Monroe on July 10, 2015, 07:52:01 am
Quote from: gettingoldandcranky on July 10, 2015, 06:31:44 am


Only worse thought is that maybe he DID stand up for us, and she cares so little for what even HE thinks that she STILL treats us this way.  Either way, her cold treatment of us has damaged our relationship with him. 

Which is so sad, as he was the cutest, sweetest little boy in the world.  I miss him.


Monroe - hope i quoted you correctly.  this is exactly how i feel.  after yrs of cold DIL, our DS just goes along and tells me I'm wrong when i call her out.  so i have just given up and now keep my mouth shut.  but i do, always, miss the sweet boy and adult and the love that he showed to us before DIL took over.  will never understand the why


Yes, you quoted me correctly.  The only difference in our situations is that my DH and I never called her out.  We have just pretended for years that everything is fine.  It is exhausting to be around either of them with that elephant in the room.   

It is a no-win situation, as you have discovered.   DIL is rude, MIL calls her out, DS gets mad at MIL.  OR . . .  DIL is rude, MIL and FIL say nothing, DS does nothing. 

Either result is unsatisfactory.  The only advantage to our approach is that DS cannot tell us we are wrong, because we have never said anything.  That is only very small satisfaction. 

It is exhausting to be around either of them - the best has been to move on with our own lives - do the things we couldn't afford to do when raising a family - I don't think things will ever change with them.   My loss.
[/quote]

It's not just your loss Monroe.. it's your son's loss too... but he just doesn't realize it yet..  He will someday.. and it will be very painful for him.  That's sad.   That was one of the things I have told my two sons..  You only get one mom.. and you are free to treat her how you choose while she is alive..  hopefully you treat her well... cuz.. there's no do overs.. and the guilt will be enormous.  I know.. I wish every day I could talk to my mom.. and say how sorry I am for things I did or didn't do.. 
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Stilllearning on July 10, 2015, 08:09:47 am
So is it wrong to hope that my DIL has a son?  I want her to understand my point of view and I do not think she ever will if she keeps producing daughters!
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Monroe on July 10, 2015, 08:32:40 am
Quote from: Stilllearning on July 10, 2015, 08:09:47 am
So is it wrong to hope that my DIL has a son?  I want her to understand my point of view and I do not think she ever will if she keeps producing daughters!


Certainly not!!!  :D    My DS and DIL show no signs of planning a family after nearly a decade.  Why?  Don't know, haven't asked, would never in a million years ask, and they certainly have to volunteered any information.  So I don't need to know - but I am quite happy with no GC from them.   A number of reasons - -
1.   I would not be allowed to get to know them much.   We all know the DIL controls access to the GCs. 
2.  DS has virtually no time for us now - and would have even less for us if he had kids. 
3.  It would break my heart to have the GCs and not have a close, loving relationship with them. 

So I am quite happy not having them.   But if they did, a little boy would be nice - and the DIL would eventually become the dreaded MIL that I so obviously am.   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Monroe on July 10, 2015, 08:34:02 am
I meant certainly have NOT volunteered any information. 
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Lillycache on July 10, 2015, 08:40:45 am
Quote from: Stilllearning on July 10, 2015, 08:09:47 am
So is it wrong to hope that my DIL has a son?  I want her to understand my point of view and I do not think she ever will if she keeps producing daughters!


Not at all..... MY son and his wife have one girl and TWO boys... means two DILS for her.. hehehehehehehehe
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Monroe on July 10, 2015, 09:17:49 am
Quote from: Lillycache on July 10, 2015, 08:40:45 am
Quote from: Stilllearning on July 10, 2015, 08:09:47 am
So is it wrong to hope that my DIL has a son?  I want her to understand my point of view and I do not think she ever will if she keeps producing daughters!


Not at all..... MY son and his wife have one girl and TWO boys... means two DILS for her.. hehehehehehehehe


Lilly - I think I love you!!!    As the old saying goes - what goes around comes around.   Yes, she will get hers!

Getting' Gold - The reason I have not called her out is that I see no upside.   What would I try to accomplish?   Change her?  Not likely.  Make DS mad?  Very likely.  So I just turn the other cheek and walk away.  I refuse to really interact with her when she has been so cold for so long.   I know I am on the outside looking in, but I refuse to be that kid with her nose pressed against the glass - giving off the air of desperation.  I won't go there.   I refused to beg the "cool kids" in high school to let me into their clique - now, decades later I am not going to beg anyone.  It is easier to keep my self-respect that way.   And as my husband reminds me, if we did confront DS and/or DIL, what would the upside be?  That she would see the error of her ways and become a loving warm family member?   Don't' think so.   So keep your self respect, don't call DIL out - just get busy and involved with people who love and respect you.  The less time you spend on DIL and DS, the more time you will have to spend on the new friends you make who will truly value you.   All the best.. 
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Lillycache on July 10, 2015, 09:56:41 am
Yeah Monroe.... Karma bites like a bedbug.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Monroe on July 10, 2015, 10:34:43 am
Quote from: Lillycache on July 10, 2015, 09:56:41 am
Yeah Monroe.... Karma bites like a bedbug.


Agreed.   And one benefit of my refusing to wail about being on the outside looking in, of refusing to be the one with my nose pressed against the glass - is that nobody can blame me for meddling or interfering.   I am busy with my own life, enjoying it, taking trips we couldn't when life was full of PTA and little league.  I absolutely do not interfere.  I never use the words "you" and "should" in the same sentence, in talking to either of them.  (Only DH gets that, and he's used to me nagging!  :D :D :D )    It has been years since I called her.  And of course she never calls me - so I give her no ammunition to complain.  If she complains anyway, maybe someday DS will see that it is without merit. 

Yay for Karma
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: BlueLotus on July 10, 2015, 11:07:29 am
Quote from: love3 on July 09, 2015, 07:58:34 pm
Blue Lotus , I am a dil also in your situation. Our stories actually sound identical ! My mil is ALOT like  yours , she wanted to pick out everything for our place when we moved to a new place. She is totally a want to be molder or trys to be . She would try so hard to get me to have her old furniture even after I told her I had everything picked out. She wanted to control still and kept asking same with bills . I NEVER let her pick out or give us furniture or buy us any. After we got our own , she gave up pestering about furniture . I think it funny how mil's actually think its ok to come in and redecorate to her liking which is the total opposite of mine that's where the molding comes in . Mil's need to understand they are not the women of the house anymore and need to respect the dil as an adult. The mil would not go into their own friends house , or even their own mil house to take over and re-decorate (that's where the respect comes in) . Sure they can suggest ideas and you can listen to them, but remember you are in charge and have no obligation to do what she says. It was hard for me at first to say no because she always talked really nice to me (even though she secretly hates me) and THAT was the guilt trip most mil are famous for. But I always stood my ground and stayed there , you have to if you want to be respected and protect yourself . Don't worry about what she thinks , because you will never be good enough in her eyes . Be the strong real person you know you are and don't let her tell you how to live your life. As for your dh ,... my dh was the same way at first he was scared and couldn't say no to his mom in order to not hurt her feelings and face the guilt trip... SO I then started tell her no myself ! And she would have to listen and accept it. Now my dh has no problem saying "no" to his mom since I started doing it myself he also got more comfortable to stand up to her. If your dh wont step up to the plate then you have to do it , its YOUR life , YOUR marriage .


Love sounds like we really are in the same situation. Our situation is so similar. My heart goes out to you. Thanks so much for sharing your experience. Thanks Green thumb for sharing also, you sound like you know alot about this, and the dynamics at play. I love all the insight and support you ladies give it's interesting, and comforting to know we are not all alone. We all have feelings. I'm not the controlling type, it's just one of the fun parts of marriage is picking out our home, decor, pets, kids names together, but she tries to take over any chance she gets. Lilly, there isn't a double standard in my own experience. My mother and I shop together. She and I have fun, no one pushes each other, we give a few opinions like "that's cute" but that the extent of it. My family forces her ideas on me. We shopped one time together, turned out she had gone to the same store the day before, found an item and it was a huge struggle with the salesperson, I let him know it wasn't my style and she cut me off and said"oh! She just doesn't know what she wants, give us a minute". She continued  to tell me why I should pick out the one she wanted for us, I finally called dfh, and he liked the one I liked. Thank god. She wasn't purchasing for us, she just wanted to pick out for us. There is such a huge difference between my mother and her. Have you ladies heard of wedding bee? Lots of dils say they love their mil, I think it's a 50/50 chance they won't get along, which is bad odds but I know so many who get along. I think it's mostly mothers with only sons, or mothers who are emerged with their sons who tend to have an issue with having respect for dil. It could sometimes be a clash of personalities, but I think the most Co dependent ,narcissistic, and controlling people have no clue that they are, or are so stubborn that they can't admit their part. I'm never afraid to say sorry. I think some Mils, and Dils, are prideful in that way they hold grudges and can't move forward. I think accepting this b  I truly hope to have a son, because I basically know exactly what not to do with DIL. SILS freak  me out more for some reason.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: BlueLotus on July 10, 2015, 11:12:37 am
I do think if I had a son, above anything else... I'd want him to be happy and successful , with a loving family of his own. That would be more important to me than my own wants. I would never get in the way of that, or ever be against it. With my Dfh, I want him to be happy, and he has become very successful the last few years, and I don't want his relationship with his family to be hurt just because he is starting a family.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Lillycache on July 10, 2015, 11:14:40 am
QuoteI think some Mils, and Dils, are prideful in that way they hold grudges and can't move forward. I think accepting this b  I truly hope to have a son, because I basically know exactly what not to do with DIL. SILS freak  me out more for some reason.


Yes... I am sure that you do and will be the best MIL ever... and I sincerely hope you get your wish. 
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: BlueLotus on July 10, 2015, 11:23:37 am
Quote from: luise.volta on July 09, 2015, 02:14:17 pm
In my case I thought it wouldn't get worse after we married. I even hoped marriage would somehow make it better. Neither came to be...it got much worse! I wasn't able to take it continually and forever and I was sorry I walked into a card game with a loaded deck. There was no way I could win. I had a romantic dream I just couldn't up and it became a nightmare!


These words kept playing in my mind all night Louise, I hardly slept... this is my fear. I don't dream of being a movie star or a billionaire.. My dream is to have a complete happy family-extended family included happily. I guess all I can do is my best.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: luise.volta on July 10, 2015, 11:45:36 am
My guess is that you 'know' just as I did. What is so is that both parties in a relationship have to have the same or similar dreams to start with and the capacity to honor them. I thought mine were strong enough to carry me through and would somehow become the norm. I tried for 18 years to make something out of nothing...and in the end there was very little left of me to leave and start over.

We each have our own path and our own lessons. What I learned, at long last, was self respect. Once I healed and that was rekindled...I met and married the man that shared my dreams.  :D We had 24 years together until he passed at age 101! Here's his picture at  age 98. When he died, I was sitting there holding his hand and singing the prayer from Hansel and Gretel...'When at night I go to sleep', only I sang, 'When at night (you) go to sleep'.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Lillycache on July 10, 2015, 11:58:51 am
lovely story Louise..  and yes.. we all "Know" exactly what we will do and how we will accomplish our dreams.  We all go into marriage and motherhood with all the answers.   We will be the best this and the best that..  We will not make the same mistakes our parents did.   We will be able to handle any situation because we are young, invincible, and most of all "in love".   Then years go by and we learn.. we did not have all the answers.. and that husbands and children, and inlaws are people..  People with their own minds, and feelings and desires, which may or many not align with our expectations.  As we always say here... our expectations are ours alone.. and no one has the obligation to meet them..  I think that is the hardest lesson of all.. and it comes after many years of experience. 
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Pooh on July 13, 2015, 06:56:48 am
Lilly, I think because forums are created to vent for those that have problems, we don't get to "see" the good stories between MIL/DIL/SIL.   My DH loves my Mother.  He will tell you she is the best MIL EVER! And yes, he too, had a horrible MIL the first marriage.  She was very much like the DIL's in this thread are describing.  Picked out all their furniture, paint, clothes for Daughter....etc.  His Ex let her Mother rule their lives and her Mother was a happy little camper to do it, making his life hard.  So he has comparison.  He truly thinks my Mother is the best ever and they jokingly introduce each other, "My FAVORITE Mother-In-Law and My FAVORITE Son-In-Law".   I also, after have the horrible Ex MIL, love my MIL now.  Her and I sit and laugh for hours!  She is absolutely wonderful.   We don't hear about these good ones much, because frankly, there are no problems to go to forums and complain about!

Now I have the DIL I love and the DIL I can't get along with.  In my case, it is totally a personality clash.  We are frankly, two very different people.  That really is the bottom line.  She expected me to treat her like her own Mother does, which is like a Princess.  To always get her own way, for us to answer only "How High?" when she said "Jump" and for us to do anything she wanted, when she said and how she said.   She was raised this way.  I was raised to be independent, to rely on myself and not expect anyone to give me anything.  If I want something, I must earn it.  I was raised to compromise, she was not.  I was raised that all people make mistakes and deserve forgiveness.  She was raised that people are disposable.  Don't like my way, Bye Felicia!  I was raised that two people who don't agree, can both still have a valid point and can still get along.  She was raised that if someone doesn't bow to her commands, she doesn't need to get along.  So yes, we have clashed from day one.  I will admit that if she wasn't my DIL and I met her on the street, I would detest her and we wouldn't be friends.

I have said before, my OS is collateral damage.  He fell in love with her and chose her.  I don't understand that at all because of the type she is, but it's not my place to understand.  The bottom line is: He loves her and wants to be with her.  He chose his path and that included agreeing with her that if her and his family couldn't get along, then he would stick with her and kiss his family goodbye.  That we were disposable.  Wasn't my decision, it was theirs.  Together.  It took me a long time to accept that because I didn't raise him that way.  He and I were close as could be and I am the non-intrusive Mother.  So I could not fathom it was so easy for him to just write us off.  That was the pain I felt.  How could he?  How could a child that you raised, nurtured and loved just decide to cut you out of his life?  Guess what?  They can because he has free will.  I don't have to like it, I don't have to understand it, but I had to accept that it is his life to live as he chooses with whoever he wants. 

It really is as simple as that.  The hard part is accepting that this is how it is and to stop looking for the why's and how's.  There doesn't have to be a why or a how.  It is what it is and to move forward in your own life, you have to realize it's not about you, it's about the other person.

Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: BlueLotus on July 17, 2015, 12:37:39 am
I just get the vibe that it's in some women's DNA to feel powerful, important superior. I think they feel like if DIL isn't cooking, cleaning, setting up the kitchen,feeding the family the way they do it, then it is the wrong way. If Dh doesn't call or spend time with MIL all the time, well then it must be DIL'S fault. I think it hurts to think of the possibility that other people might have other or even better ideas and sometimes children get busy or just don't feel like talking.  I think it's less hurtful internally to think that "my way is the best way", and "DIL is holding ds hostage or making him spend less time with me. Ds would never do this willingly" It's a defense mechanism for some.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Green Thumb on July 24, 2015, 03:10:11 pm
BlueLotus, you know how your FMIL is. You have to accept it and detach from it emotionally. She is not going to change. You can only change how you react and act towards her and about her. Some of the women here have gone low or no contact. Some have set boundaries, some are then cut off by their AC and do not see their grandchildren. The things your MIL does will be a problem forever. You are choosing this situation so make the best of it. I highly suggest you and Fiance get couples counseling before the marriage to learn to set boundaries -- but I warn that if he doesn't think his mom is a problem then you are spitting in the wind to get him to set boundaries. You can learn to set boundaries yourself, how to negotiate for what you want and need and how to politely stand your ground. Techniques for getting along with this situation. Every person comes with baggage and at least you are wise enough to understand and realize what is going on in advance of tying the knot.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Pooh on July 27, 2015, 12:58:12 pm
Quote from: BlueLotus on July 17, 2015, 12:37:39 am
I just get the vibe that it's in some women's DNA to feel powerful, important superior. I think they feel like if DIL isn't cooking, cleaning, setting up the kitchen,feeding the family the way they do it, then it is the wrong way. If Dh doesn't call or spend time with MIL all the time, well then it must be DIL'S fault. I think it hurts to think of the possibility that other people might have other or even better ideas and sometimes children get busy or just don't feel like talking.  I think it's less hurtful internally to think that "my way is the best way", and "DIL is holding ds hostage or making him spend less time with me. Ds would never do this willingly" It's a defense mechanism for some.


BlueLotus, that also can be said for some DILs as well.  Insert "MIL" into those same sentences and you have the same dynamic.  It seems to be a competitive nature in general, not just in a title.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: Lillycache on July 29, 2015, 04:09:55 am
I firmly believe it's in the female DNA to be competitive and distrustful of other females.   This IMO has been inbred throughout the ages...  It started out as competition for resources for survival, and for the survival of offspring.  That main resource was Men.   Women needed men to hunt, and to provide protection for them and their kids.  The strongest and best providers were sought and competed for.    Well... we don't need that any longer, however, the old instinct to compete against other females has not dissipated.  Feelings of insecurity and distrust still exist between women... especially when it comes to family dynamics.  The DIL is jealous of the MIL and her status with her husband..  The MIL sees the DIL as wanting her step out of the picture.  That does NOT go over very well.. and the problems start.   
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: shiny on July 29, 2015, 04:18:47 am
LC, I agree with you, and another wrench thrown in is when the DIL gives DS his marching orders and he follows her lead instead of taking a stand like a man and not exclude his DM. That's how it's working for me now.
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: NewMama on July 29, 2015, 04:59:09 am
Sweeping generalization don't help anyone. Some people here have problem ACs and CILs, some of us have problem MILs. It's the person, not the title.

I'm not interested in competing with my MIL over my DH - I know he loves me, I know he loves her. We have two totally different roles in his life. She is, however, completely interested in competing with me over my kid's affection. And every other grandmother in their lives affection. That is her insecurity issue, not mine.

And I know I've been on the receiving end of the "DIL is calling the shots" stuff from my MIL, and it couldnt' be further from the truth. I think it's sad my MIL thinks so little of DH that he can't have a thought independent of me regarding our family. I also think it's been incredibly frustrating for me and damaging for relationship with her to know I'm being blamed for stuff DH decided 100% on his own - to not visit her, to keep her out of the loop on purpose, and that if was up to him, she never would be invited to family events (birthdays, baptisms, etc).
Title: Re: Trying to be hopeful, it's getting harder every year.
Post by: luise.volta on July 29, 2015, 10:05:42 am
Are we getting to the place of debate on this thread? Once we've all shared our experience that sometimes happens and then generalizations surface to defend our position. That's not what we do best. I think it may be time to wrap this one up. Love you guys!