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"Welcome to WiseWomenUnite.com -- When adult children marry and leave home, life can sometimes get more complex instead of simpler.  Being a mother-in-law or daughter-in-law can be tough.  How do we extend love and support to our mothers-in-law, adult children, daughters-in-law, sons-in-law, and grandchildren without interfering?  What do we do when there are communication problems?  How can we ask for help when we need it without being a burden?  And how do our family members feel about these issues?  We invite you to join our free forum, read some posts... and when you're ready...share your challenges and wisdom."


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Messages - justanoldgrandma

16
Artlady, good luck w the talk.  Hope you get some things straightened out; glad you two have communication, that makes it easier....she may be so controlled or whatever that she is rather unaware.....hope she "gets it!" and can visit you w gc regardless of her husband....
17
OS is so hectically busy w work/remodeling/yard work, helping his sahw w housework and childcare that we get calls only when he's driving home from work (bluetooth);dil doesn't keep him from calling;he's just swamped. Weekends are for work/friends/church/her foo....(the last is frustrating to son and to us but it is what it is.)

YS was in an abusive relationship; could tell he couldn't talk if she was in the house;no visits, secrets.....he's out of it now....his gf now is great about communication and he can talk but also has so little time and distance....

Fortunately we aren't cut out of our sons' lives, so grateful, but we are so careful not to overstep....different from when I was young!

A lot of it is that they have grown up and emphasis is on work/family/friends....I see this a lot unless it's a small town where everyone lives there (like the foo mentioned above....they see/call a lot....); otherwise, we have just accepted that we aren't going to see them all that much....

I think the reason, Mimi, that you read more about dss not in their foo's lives is that sons are more independent from their foos for the most part; they can't be mama's boys, whereas the girls can still be very close to their foos; it's just a genetic or "today's world' it seems....sons aren't expected to be at their foos as much....they don't communicate as much....

A generation ago, maybe....
18
I know all MILs here appreciate your post!  I never thought of IL problems while raising the boys.

I take that back!  My parents didn't love my dh at first  but didn't object....they didn't demand a lot; were content to see us at alternating holidays and sometimes a dinner (we didn't live close); dh's family was large and very close and did expect to see us a lot while newlyweds and w small kids although they didn't insist on seeing us for all holidays. 

Before our wedding, widowed fil wanted to buy a house trailer for us and him to live in to benefit us financially and for him not to be lonely!  I was appalled although I liked fil; dh would have gone along w it but he knew I didn't and still don't! like relatives or friends living w us (just too private, I guess.)  DH was sad having to just ignore his df's request; (he went on to live w his dd.)

We were often being "dropped in on" for a weekend visit as their family (meaning parents, siblings, cousins, etc.) was used to that; (my mother hated that practice; had to have a phone call.)  The ILs would help w meals and such but sometimes our plans had to be cancelled....didn't like it at all.

Being passive, I didn't object to all the visiting/dropping by...they did all get it that I was "different" and couldn't stand people living w us, thank goodness, as that was common w the family (in times of financial troubles.)  We sometimes had to lend money, etc....but they liked me and were happy seeing the gkds.....and gradually dh accepted that I wasn't into what I considered communal living!

It seems that way back then (we've been married 30 years) people just accepted these differences and there were no blow ups or cut offs......even today we can visit back and forth, they are my friends.....no jealousy.....

So...comments, please....would you all (dils and mils both) have had IL problems w this discrepancy in life style?  (DH and I were raised so differently.) I think we were able to COMPROMISE and so many won't today....(dh and I today do the walk on eggshells thing to be sure not to impose on dss and families.....)

19
Forever, perfect!  You are taking care to make all feel that you care for them w/o taking sides or prying; and it's so great that you are going to see gc and getting ready for the visit; it puts the emphasis where it should be.

It is hard to think of what to say to ex dil w/o taking sides; maybe just to thank her for reaching out about the gc and to ask how and when it would be convenient for you to see the gkids......

I know it's not the same bc my ds wasn't married to his old gf and there were no children but she was truly like a dd to me and we honestly loved her and vice versa (and also her family.)  It was so hard and I miss her even today but ds is content w his wife and ex gf is happy w her dh.  DS wouldn't have listened to me, it was his choice to break up but he had conflicting feelings anyway; I'm so glad I kept out of it although I'm not that type!  The higher power must have been onto me! 

With gkds (and marriage)  it's so much more complicated and you are being cautious and considerate of all sides; you are avoiding the mine fields of this split and even though it's hard your ds, his ex, and the gc will all be all right; and you will keep your ds (and his gf bc he must be in love at least for now); your dil seems reasonable and you won't lose your gc....

Not meaning to be patronizing, dear Forever.....our small town is rife w divorces, separations, everyone knows everyone; I see the gmas struggling to be there for their sons, yet not wanting to lose the gc; it's a delicate situation.

I feel you have a handle on it and have your priorities very straight!  Lots of thinking of you.
20
Although it's uncomfortable and sometimes hurtful for me to be around my kid/spouse, I do it bc I want to see the gc.....like you, Jill, being there or hovering or whatever, it's hard to let oneself be hurt in order to be w the ones we do love, to bite one's tongue, not be able to express opinions, feelings, for fear of losing contact.

Working on not letting things get to me while there, following counselor's advice, praying for guidance and patience, telling myself this too shall pass, keep reminding myself it's not me.....

I would hurt less intensely, walk on fewer eggshells if I stayed away/broke contact, but being w the gc and ds is worth it; I just have to change my reactions and do the "big panties" thing!
21
Quote from: Doe on May 21, 2012, 06:42:29 AM
Quote from: forever spring on May 20, 2012, 10:27:44 PM
I have decided to be open to him about what xDIL and FOO tell me and be open about my replies to them, if any. I have to reply to the email my xDIL sent, that's only common courtesy on the one hand but on the other it also allows me to see the GC soon, I hope.

If you're still looking for opinions, here's mine.  I wouldn't start telling anyone what other people said about them.  I would ask both DS and DIL/FOO to respect your position and to not put you in the middle by sharing the upsets and problems with you.   You just want to be the caring, loving GM/Mom, right?  Not a messenger for bad news, upsets, etc.
Besides, both parties are just venting, probably and you don't really need to pass that along, do you?

When you're DS, be the Mother.  When you're with DIL/GK, be the GM.


I know, i agree w Doe; when I said good luck talking w ds, even as I typed it I wondered about your telling ds about what ex dil and her foo say about him.....please don't pass on what they have said.  Even if your ds has made mistakes, there are two sides and if you tell him the grievances he will:

1.  be angry w you bc he will think you are criticising him; he may stop speaking to you, be defensive of his gf and of his actions, hard feelings will abound, and if he has the children w him for visits, etc, you may not be invited.....you don't want to lose your son and his maybe future gf and possible more gc

2. he will then be angrier w his ex and her foo and perhaps say some things, making it even harder for him to see his children....

Nothing good can come of repeating the grievances of a wife who has been left, regardless of the circumstances.  (I fortunately never repeated to my ds the things his ex gf and her foo said about him in emails to me; it would have hurt ds and also his relationship w me; no son wants his mother in these matters.)

I know you are hurt and want explanations but these explanations may never come or not for a long time.....

When you see or talk w your son, keep always in your mind the love you have for him and the gc.  Whatever he's done is really not important.  Don't make him try to justify leaving his ex.  Just tell him you love him, that you hope to stay close to the children....really, the shorter talks the better; if he wants to unload w you about his ex, let him but don't take sides.  It will get back to his ex and there goes the gc.

This is a touchy situation.  Try as Doe said to stay out of all discussions and conflicts and just let ds and gc know you love them, don't say anything about the gf, be polite to her, polite but don't sympathize w the dil should she talk w you.....listen if you must but no opinions or siding w either party.

Just be there for ds and gc, and give them the attention and love they need at this time.

This is preachy but i've had this type of thing happen before my eyes and it turn out well if the fire isn't fanned.  I do like Doe's suggestion, to be the Mother w ds, and the gm w dil/gks.

When upset, find a counselor or pastor to speak with; gossip/information at this time is disastrous; if someone asks you what the deal is, say something vague, like I don't really know.....everyone wants to know the details and you won't know them....

Thinking of you at this hard time! Again, sorry to go on and on but please follow Doe's advice.  Keeping ds and gks, regardless, is what is important, and not alienating dil or new gf.


22
I would miss my gc like crazy, don't see them often enough to suit me bc of distance and ds being so busy and dil's social/foo life.....

But i was allowed to bond w them, dh, too.  Not as much as the other foo, but I'm grateful.  I do think the gps who don't seem to care about the gc so much just haven't been able to spend time w them; and that hurts and the gps throw up an emotional detachment  bc it HURTS SO MUCH.  (I know some gps don't seem to care much, and some gps aren't allowed to see the gks for sometimes valid reasons.)

Scoop,sounds like your mil didn't let her son "go".....still too attached.  Strange and not usual; don't know the problem; I love being w ds but also gkids.

And OT, you do seem to get it that if you had seen the gc often and bonded w them, they would be more important to you, you would love them similarly as you did your own children; I didn't think i was much of a kid person till i had kids and gks.....you have to have your own life and not cry over the gks if you don't get to see/bond w them; it drives a person nuts; I think your reaction and feelings are healthy....you love them but they aren't your life.


This may be off topic; if I'd never gotten to see the gc at first or very rarely, I think I'd hurt a lot; but maybe it's facing facts if the parents don't allow access; you can only dwell on absent gc for so long before moving on to other interests....cards and projects are good when they get older so they will know you, but those early years are so important.  but you can only do what you can and self-preservation is important.....I have to get a life apart from ds/dil/gc bc they aren't in my daily life, more once or best, twice monthly; and they are still momma's kids, sometimes don't want us.....love to have them all to ourselves sometimes, makes all the difference, but that doesn't always happen.  have to take what i can get.....

NewMama, I laugh about your mil rushing to the gs; it's so hard not to!  They are so adorable!  But since our gc don't rush at us (maybe the baby will someday), we do hang back till they get used to seeing us again.  Maybe try to let her know somehow (maybe dh will have to tell her) that the gs needs time to come to her....when we see the little family, we try to hug the parents and ask how they are before rushing after the gc; then the parents know we care about THEM, not just the gc; and it gives the gc a while to come to us....
23
I am glad your relationship is strong enough that you don't have to stifle your feelings.  My relative cried in front of her dd about her breakup, letting it all out and that was healing for her; she didn't criticize the new bf bc she didn't know him, just the dd's leaving her dh......the dd felt bad for hurting her ex and her mom but she was so unhappy she had to leave her then husband.  The ex did cry on his mil's shoulder and she knew he was depressed; he really should have found a different place to let it out bc that was so hard on the mother;

I'm sure your ex dil will find confidants elsewhere and not vent w you; as others said, picking up the gc for a day out or babysitting them in their home while the ex dil gets out would be great; she sounds like a good dil and mother to be initiate a vist w the gc.

You're right, no one gets your situation, even your friends (a counselor if need be would) and soon the friends tire of hearing.  So WWU is so valuable; so many people get it here.

I do hope you can talk w ds (my ds is so private that I could say very little and he was hurting anyway; stifling it all does hurt; am having to do it now); I know you'll be able to talk w him about his children and how important to see them; that's the most important thing now; and I can see you don't want to criticize the new gf or their relationship bc as you said, they may stay together and you don't want to jeopardize the relationship w her or your ds or lose the chance w further gc.....

Hopefully you'll see that what you care about is him and the gc; the rest will fade away.....

Divorce is so hard but it can be borne if the relationship between the AC and parents and gc is kept intact....

I'm glad the example helped; it's been a few years now and everyone accepts the new bf and the dd is happy, the gma has let it all go, even likes the new bf, the ex dh has moved on.....the adult gd sees both her mom and dad....it can happen; it's hard not to get involved too much when it seems the hurt won't end, but it can.

Good luck w your visit w ds and I know you'll keep it focused; he's probably a bit defensive now, he's not the good guy....I had to be careful not to sympathize w my ds's ex gf and her family (I had to just hurt for them) bc i couldn't lose my son.....

Let us know how it goes; good listeners here!
24
I have a female relative who was devastated when her dd left her dh; actually the dd had been unhappy for some time due to lack of physical intimacy despite counseling.....she actually didn't leave him for the new bf but she did find him right away after an unofficial separation.

My relative, a gma, was so upset she cried for so long, said her soon to be ex sil treated her like a queen, that she didn't like the new bf, etc.  However, she knew the dd was unhappy and was grieving the loss of her sil (who didn't actually treat her like a queen, was just around a lot of years.)  i did think the dd latched on to the new man too soon, advised her to date, but she didn't want to date; she wanted the security of another relationship.  The dd and new bf  are still together, unmarried but go to counseling some and seem to get along.  i don't think the dd regrets leaving her ex.

The worse thing for the gma was that her dd moved hours away and she had lived very close by; so she lost a nearly daily visit from her.

The gma really had in her mind that her ex sil was a great sil, rather idolizing him after the leaving....she is over it now, but it was a grieving process to lose her ex sil.

She had no problem w the gd, who was grown and already out of the house, which is so different from this case where the gc are young. 

i think it's great that your ex dil is kind enough to say you are welcome to see the gc.  i wouldn't hesitate to see them all i could.  Hopefully their dm won't want to discuss the marriage and you can keep your focus on the gc who do need you, i would think.

Your ds may be acting like a man in love, maybe dominated by the new gf, who knows, but there is something that is making him say he won't see his dc w/o the woman.  There may be a lot to the breakup of the marriage he won't discuss; he may be embarrassed by taking up w the other woman so soon and defensive about it.

Although my ds wasn't even engaged, i grieved when he broke up w his long time gf whom I thought of as a dd and soon met and married a girl who  is unattached emotionally to us.  I heard from the old gf and her parents who felt my son was a jerk but I knew he was unhappy so wasn't surprised.....it hurt that they implied he wasn't honorable but they were hurt and I didn't try to defend him, just listened.  But my son hurt when he hurt his old gf bc he did care about her.  Of course, the new gf was jealous anyway....I didn't try to advise ds bc he just didn't love his old gf any more....

I would try not to make your ds feel you disapprove of him bc although he may not show it, he has to be confused/"in love"/guilty feeling/defensive......don't know if new gf has these visiting the children rules, but he needs to see them; hopefully it won't be too confusing on the children and hope the ex wife can bear it.....

I'm only glad that you and ds aren't estranged; you may have said all you can; he's not listening any more than our dss when we say something about their wives; he'll have to work through it.

just see those gc bc you are fortunate the ex wife is so generous.  this is hard!  but you never know the ending.  Try to keep your relationship w ds and gc and try not to side w the ex wife; you can be friendly to her when you see her, but as said, you can't side w her.
25
Quote from: herbalescapes on May 17, 2012, 11:11:16 AM
Perhaps you are fulfilling the Serenity Prayer: God grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can and the wisdom to know the difference. 

Adult children are adults so they do have the perogative to be as rude, thoughtless, self-absorbed as they want.  We don't have to like it or approve of it or support it, but we do have to accept it.  We raise our kids for the first decade and a half or two, then they get to call the shots on how they want to interact with their parents.  Unfortunately it's really tough to let go and not get caught up in how it used to be or should be. 

Good luck.

Also worn out.  I think I'm over being jealous and hurt but find that I've been holding it in.  So I vent to a friend (who has her dd and family so close they text constantly) and a ds who is devoted to her) so of course she doesn't really get it so I feel embarrassed.  But am exhausted from talking about it!  It changes nothing except to get to air it to only trusted ones (dh doesn't want to discuss it); it helps to vent but then...

Exhausted!  Tired of not accepting what is  and going on w my life (which used to be called selfish when raising the kids! now it's necessary to go on, trying to put their daily lives and dils' foo out of mind.......life is short, what is going on w ds really isn't life or death, and it really is futile to even think about...

Till I hear of fun times again and have to do the Serenity again!  (Has to be said BEFORE hand!)
26
BTW, no way would I neglect my dh's family; many times they come first.  My dh wouldn't have that, even if I were so inclined!  My family is able to share, to alternate visits.....I do think there were times my mother didn't like having to share but she didn't object; fair is fair.

And consideration is consideration.

Has anything changed, ya think?  I really wonder.
27
JDTM, I'm sincerely glad you have one dil who is family to you! A bit envious, but glad! (I do have one son w a gf that may have a less demanding family; she seems "into us"....holding breath!) But have learned just have to accept what is, is.  Just vent now and then! Haven't been on for a while but my venting is about over, hopefully!

If only the dominating family and spouse would realize that the offspring's family being ignored is just plain selfish and that the offspring actually would be happier......

But they don't get it; I do think in days past there was more sharing, at least in my experience.  And sons were more assertive, at least in my experience!  More sharing, more consideration. My father didn't neglect his mother/father in the least; my mother shared holidays; none of this one-sided stuff. 

There are exceptions, thankfully, but there is a dynamic or generation that has changed; I could generalize, but I'd only get into trouble!



28
My dil has her mother and other female relatives/friends that she's close to, that she confides in; lots of family drama and convo.  In other words, she doesn't need me to talk with....

So we chat about the children and trivial things a bit, but she just really doesn't have the desire or time for close friendship w me; so I try not to be annoying and chatter on.....her interests are more into fashion/hair/going out.....even my dsis says, hey, she just isn't talking, she's not a conversationalist, she's shallow.....(she's just not grown up even though not young.)

I have had ds's past gfs that felt more like daughters or friends that would talk about things, that seemed glad to be with us; that did seem "into me"; so that helps in not feeling rejected.  If I call/email/talk too much, I feel like I'm intruding; we get along better on a superficial level, which is sad but true.
29
Quote from: Vasilisa on May 10, 2012, 08:32:59 AM
A fair few people here seem to be chalking up these family problems to being mothers of sons. What I want to know is, Why is being the mother of sons a problem? I genuinely want to know. It can't always be a problem -- my aunts are mothers of sons only and they are very, very involved with their sons and grandchildren, maybe even more than they want to be (one aunt has provided a lot of childcare for her grandchildren, the other has actually raised one of hers). One of my aunts in particular has always been loved by her sons' wives and girlfriends, even after they split up. Maybe I should ask her her secret in case I ever have a son!

Vasilisa, it all depends. 
1.Sometimes the offspring and spouse don't get along w the parents; are cut off for some reason, valid or not.

2.Some families are seen as more fun bc there's a bigger crowd there, more activity, golf for the guys, lots of fun activites bc of the number of people there and their desire to "have fun.'  Makes the other side look boring....

3. Some maternal (and paternal, I've seen) families MUST have the holidays/bdays, etc., at their house w everyone in attendance. Tradition. No one dares not to attend, it's expected the offspring is accustomed to this, the matriarch insists.....the left out party, can't fight this....everyone would be miserable.

4. I do know one daughter who HAS to go to her dh's mother's for all get-togethers; she's too shy to insist and her mother has other offsprings and doesn't insist on the holidays.  Otherwise, it seems it's the son who can't/won't fight his wife and her family to go to his parents' house; I've seen young wives and their family insistent, and who wants an IL at their house who is miserable and sulking, anyway?

5. Sons leave social events more often to their wives, esp. if the wife doesn't work or is more into the social calendar. Some sons have no clue how it hurts the parents; if told, some will try to visit the parents as a condolence visit.

6. It seems that daughters are more often closer to their mothers than sons to their mothers; you know the old saying, lose the son when he marries.....daughters and mothers can share things that sons/mothers can't sometimes and the paternal father usually isn't as sensitive as the paternal mother to fight for the son/dil to come visit him.

Vasila, I noticed that your grandmother who had everyone in attendance at holidays must have had daughter(s) bc even the sils loved it at her house (my family used to take turns; I've never seen such a monopoly as I am enduring now);. I wonder how the sons who were always at their wives' grandmother's house felt; or their parents....who was with them?

Times have changed, I feel; wives are more in charge of social planning and young husbands can't or won't fight about it; peace w the wife and her family are more essential than the parents' being alone.

So as for me, I've accepted having whatever visits I can get and am planning to enjoy life w dh; that's the story w sons as I am experiencing it.

It can, of course, be a dominating mother of the son.....and your aunt whose sons and their wives or gfs love her; she's a very lucky woman if her sons insist on spending time w her and the gfs and wives aren't insistent on being w their own families all the time.

Our son loves us and does feel bad about it and is trying to even up some of the visits but the major ones.... his wife would leave and go alone; the expectation of her being at mom's is so strong she wouldn't think of not being there.  For us, it's not worth asking our son to fight it out (and he wants some peace at home; his wife is more strong-willed than he in this....he has other things to hold his own on.)
30
I just tell them they are at the other foo (as always, I add!) and I don't defend ds; he's keeping peace in his family.
If people think I'm being neglected, no problem; I am still a good mom.  I'll congratulate others on their happy day; but many are in the same boat.

As for me, I'm going to do whatever I want on that day w dh and will not feel sorry for myself!  Like Christmas, I will not forward the calls and on that day, ds kept calling, wondering where we were, feeling bad for not being here.  I don't lay on the guilt trip; he is a smart boy, he gets it.

So long as I know he and to some extent, dil, cares about us, I can deal.  It's my day and I'll enjoy dh's attention which will be a lot more if I'm not crying in the bathroom!