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Hello all suffering MIL's.

I've noticed a "thread" in so many of your posts, and mine.  And that is, "What Did I do Wrong?"  In other words, how did you personally cause this situation with your son and daughter-in-law?  What could you have done differently?  And aren't these questions ammunition for many a stomach-grinding thought at midnight or 3 AM, whatever is your preferred time for insomnia in regard to your adult child (children?)

Well, I can tell you now, because of a divine vision that finally showed me the way.  And the answer is, "You Cannot Win." 

Because:

1---If you disciplined your child and set high standards, you are guilty of abuse.  If you were lax and let your kids do what they wanted, you were
neglectful.

2---If you or your husband worked too much outside the family, you or your husband (or both) didn't spend enough time with your accusing child.  If you were a Stay-at-Home Mom or Dad, you deprived the family of the economic benefits of full employment.

3---If you only took vacations when husband or you could do it around work, you are guilty of not fully spending time with the family.  If you only took vacations you could really afford, such as at a crummy old-fashioned fishing cabin, you deprived your children of International Experiences.

4---If you let your kids participate in injury-prone sports, you are guilty of not caring about your child's physical health.  If you didn't allow your kids to participate in sports where they could get hurt, you are guilty of not giving them the freedom to pursue their interests.

5---If you were an anti-gun parent and didn't allow even play guns in the house, you are guilty of separating them from their friends' play.  If you allowed play guns in the house, you are guilty of letting your children feel that violence is OK.

6---If you allowed them to watch more than two hours of TV per day, you are guilty of allowing them to watch too much TV.  If you didn't allow them to watch TV at all, you are guilty of keeping them outside of their childhood peers.

7---If you allowed them to go to McDonald's, you are guilty of their weight problems as adults.  If you didn't allow them to go to McDonald's you are guilty of taking away the greatest restaurant childhood fun.

I am sure that many of you can add significantly to this list, but the answer to "What did I do wrong?" is this:  no matter what you did right or wrong, you are GUILTY!

In other words, those who look to assign guilt and blame, without looking at themselves or what it means to be a parent, will definitely find that ounce of dust after you have washed the entire floor on your hands and knees.  They will find that tiny speck and make it into a big balloon of blame and the reason why they owe us nothing but their contempt.  But some day, as Pete Seeger says, they may wind up and find they're a parent, too.  Then, Katy bar the door, because their children will be asking why they treated one set of grandparents so very differently from the other.  And that, my friends, is a no-win situation.

Kathleen

Kathleen

Excellent post. 

Yes whatever we did.....we were wrong. 

We should put this into our heads......we did our best.....it is not our fault.... There are outside factors that we cannot control.  Who they meet, who they play with, the neighbors....you name it.  Even their genes.....We raised our children in he same house, environment and rules and they all grow to be different.  So the same happened with us and our siblings.

So lets put our heads high........we are dream mothers.....wiith nightmare results.

Thanks for posting Kathleen.  I love it!


Hugs

Yes Kathleen, I think of myself as a good mother, my kids were my life, I was over protective, didn't work, didn't leave them with anyone, raised them the exact same way and the're all so different and the one who was closest to me is the one that has hurt me the most.

I appreciated your post Kathleen and to an extent it makes sense, it does seem at times that you simply can't win.

What I've noticed as a difference between our parents and our own parenting skills is pretty simple. We did not grow up with this sense of entitlement that seems to plague so many.  My parents basically said, if you want it.. work for it.  I did not have a new car waiting in the driveway for my 16th birthday, and never was I allowed to partake in activities that were not age appropriate.  I had curfews, expectations and a heck of a lot of demands placed on me.  When I failed at something we talked about why I failed, and how not to fail in the future... we didn't butter coat it and make it someone else's fault. 

Seems like many have taken those lessons that made our parents and their generation strong and forgot to apply them to our own kids.  Many parents have handed their kids the moon in an attempt to save them from feeling left out if they were unable to obtain these items on their own.  Parents have forgotten how to say no and strive to be their kids best friends.  Few have taught their kids that for every action there is a reaction, and a consequence for every decision thus making them alone responsible for their behavior.

At the same time it does seem that it's a no win game.. The one that always got me was when they said put your baby in shoes.. then it was oh no, shoes to soon are bad, this was later reversed again.  I ended up with two children in shoes and one not.. funny they all walk just fine today. 

Yes, Kathleen, great post. If we're lucky our kids (or us for that matter) will see things differently when they grow up.

It's good to hear from you!

LaurieS and all,

Thanks for your replies.  So, Laurie, in your case, it was inconsistency with baby shoes.  That is a new one and very interesting.  For me, one of my son's complaints was #3 about the vacations.  We took them to Disney World twice, summers they went back alone with me to my home of origin and spent time in old fishing cabins on a lakeshore, and later he had a trip to Europe and went back for a whole summer to study there.  Today, not directly but through the grapevine, he tells us he is rejecting us partly because we didn't have "normal" family vacations where we all went for two weeks in the winter to a South Seas island. Because I spent time in cabins on lakes when I was a kid, magical times of being able to swim and wander freely in a safe area, I assumed my kids would love them too.  But, as it turns out, my son felt he should have Club Med.  My husband did work a lot, providing all those vacations and full college tuition payments and lots of other good things.

There you see your very astute observation, Laurie, of the "sense of entitlement."  I think you are exactly right on the nail.  I wonder if that is generated in the family or by the media.  Everyone in Sitcom City seems to live in a gorgeous home and have lots of "stuff."  My son did, too.  Yet I can only imagine what he'd have to say today if he was raised in poverty or even a deprived lower middle class.  No doubt that list of grievances would crash his computer; as it is he has to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find reasons to stay away.

We went through the play gun thing with my older sons.  I restricted it, feeling they might become violent as adults. This was pretty ridiculous, since I was a tomboy who played guns with the boys and one of the great days of my childhood was the day at my grandmother's when my Annie Oakley outfit arrived, completely with two holsters and six-shooters. Later on I marched for peace despite my childhood history of play guns. So actually now it's my son, the one who never played with guns, whose doing the cutoff who engages in a kind of emotional blackmail which is emotionally violent to his parents.  By the time my third son came along, I gave up trying to be politically correct.  He played with guns to his heart's content, soon got into better forms of play, and is the most gentle and thoughtful of all the three as an adult.  But wouldn't he have the perfect excuse to rob banks if he chose to go that way?

I also think these no-win reasons are an excuse to do what one wishes without the burdens of older parents.  Then you are free to watch endless football games on Sundays, or, in the case of my DIL, go on relentless shopping trips to the mall, instead of having to drive with your child to the grandparents and spend a much more boring time. (Or, worse, have them over.)  Parents/grandparents can be a lot of trouble.  One might have to give birthday cards, invite them over for Father's Day, and see to Christmas.  Too bad my son & DIL didn't live in Alaska when they were still sending old people out on the ice to die; that would have been so convenient.

They are fortunate we never felt that way about them.

Kathleen

Anna, DS hasn't said this to us in so many words, but has implied many times that DIL has told him that it's her way or the highway, he loves her and her DD and feels he has no choice but to do what she says. We have never put him in a position where he has to choose, we know better than that, DIL has and he's afraid of her, a 4', 70 lb. woman. lol

No one should ever be put in the position where they have to choose, and I don't believe any of us mother's have done that...however, what is so difficult for us to understand, is, they are married and have a new woman in they're lives, we are and shouldn't be no longer they're first priority...

Anna, there is still compassion from our sons, they feel awful inside, knowing that we're hurting and this is going on...believe me....and I've even seen some mothers use that, to try and bring they're sons back to them...that is terrible...and unhealthy...

Just b/c my DIL and I are getting along, doesn't mean I'm not still hurting...I lost my son to...he is a man now....not b/c he is not compassionate, but because it's life's journey for them....Every mother goes thru this separation and depression of loosing they're sons to another woman...some worse then others b/c they can't let go....they want to be involved in they're son's life, however, it doesn't work....
someone told me once, and I don't remember who it was, and I don't care, but they said to me, "I'm jealous that things are better with your DIL?"  I don't get that?  If you care about people, your not just standing by them when they're hurting, but when something paramount happens in they're lives, you are happy to?  And yet, when I posted happiness, very few people replied here?  Why?  And no one needs to answer that, I know why. 

Anna, we've all had bad lives, some worse then others...but no one is exempt from having a life that wasn't hurtful....what hurts more is when we don't learn to accept what is and we fight it...we've all spilled our guts out all over these pages about our lives...however, I refuse to hang onto those bad times, and rejoice and dance for the many good times and opportunities I've had.

Some of you have more then one child...I do not...I lost 3 children, b/c I couldn't carry them...and that I'm so sorry for...I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm trying to point out what you guys have...and some of you I just can't imagine what it must have been like to raise more then one child.  I loved kids so much I taught Sunday School and was a youth group advisor.  I grew up an only child, except for my foster family, but it's not the same thing...I wanted to give my son sisters and brothers, but could not, and I weep not to know that every day....child birth to me was the best experience, along with raising my son....however, I also know, I clung to my son more so, b/c I was alone and was going thru a very very bad divorce...so, that may have even intimidated my DIL...she needed him to, she needed to start a new life with him, and not have me constantly on his mind...she wan't to be first and foremost in his life...she for the first time in her life, had someone who loved her, and that she  could love back. 

I've read all your posts...from top to bottom...and I can only think of my girlfriend who has 4 sons and 1 daughter....she backed off immediately....b/c she knew, her job was over....she didn't suggest anything to them, or call or just stop over when ever she pleased...she understood there must be boundaries now...she lets them call her, she never calls them....unless it's something important.....and that is what I have done....

It's no longer about me, but about them, as a couple, who need privacy and boundaries...and a lot of times, the smallest thing, that you don't even realize, you said or did, started this...by maybe calling to much, stopping over to much....I would never stop over at my son's house without calling first and asking if this is a good time....or even when I call, I ask, is this a good time to call...? 

They are busy, a lot busier then us most of the time....

Anna, we've had our lives, our children, and our children...and the more we fight this and get involved, the more we're goin to hurt ourselves.

I've had people write me and ask me for advice on this over the years...and yanno, how I can tell, why they're are problems, b/c the MIL, refuses to admit to herself, that it is not healthy to cling to this problem...or our sons...the more we do, the more we hurt ourselves...I'm sorry, but it's true...when people write me and ask me for my advice and I tell them, right away they get defensive and say, well, I didn't do this or that....or I  didn't do anything...maybe not in your eyes, but in they're eyes, something happened to spark all this...DIL was offended or hurt by some small action and became afraid, if she didn't set boundaries not, this is going to get out of hand...I'm not saying you personally, I'm speaking for those who have, I don't know for sure if you have...however, I do know that your fighting this with all your might, and it's making your life miserable. 

You have a Husband, I have no one...if I did, I'd certainly not miss my son as much...b/c I'd forget about my son and consentrate all my attention to starting a new life now with hubby.  By fighting this, it's driving your husbands crazy, to the point where I bet some of them really fear coming home, b/c they are tired of hearing about it...tired of seeing you hurt yourself, but fear telling you...the same way your son fears telling you or his wife, where you both went wrong....

When someone distances themselves from us, that means there is a problem....like it or not, it isn't all DIL's decission, but son's.  It should raise a flag, and instead of getting angry, we should be trying to figure out what WE as human beings can do to make this better, and if that means backing off, then so be it.

I read where one DIL and husband cut off her inlaws...b/c they were way to overpowering and entitled to they're lives, and it was for years...but now they have allowed MIL and FIL back in they're lives...I hope they have changed, but I fear as time goes on, they will start doing the same things again, by interferring, unless she sets boundaries from the beginning.

Do you know how to beat this?  How to once again have peace...let your son go, let them do they're thing, and give them they're lives, while you figure out a way to live your own...

I see so many mothers posting that are assuming this and that about they're DIL's.  Why they must be doing this or that b/c they hate me....no, your wrong....and looking for things...I did the very same thing, I was hurt, and assuming everything that happened, was against me...

For instance, the woman who wrote and was upset about her DIL sending a card from GD, and didn't write Nana and Pop Pop on the envelope.....??????  I would never do that...ever....inside the card I would...but her DIL took the effort to purchase a card and to send it, thinking that perhaps that would make her mil feel good, and the MIL is looking for something to be upset about by complaining about the envelope????  She should be able to identify, the good thing that her DIL did and cherish that move, b/c it is a milestone. 

My DIL didn't ever send me things from her or my GD, it was always my son sending me things...well, she has changed, and when the DIL see's change, she starts to change to, but it does not happen over night...it takes a long time...of hard work...and it doesn't really have to be hard work, if you get yourselves involved in your own life, and branch out....start getting involved in other areas of your community, friends, books, whatever, but change your habits...when your children see that your not as involved in they're lives, they are going to once again return, but as long as they feel threatened that by contacting you, it's going to only open a can of worms again...they will back off...the resistence to accepting them as a couple and people who needs to have they're own lives, is negative energy that they feel....

Anna, I know everything I've written here does not apply to you, or others here, I'm just throwing out suggestions.  I know a lot of you ladies get offended and angry, by my posts, however, if your going to change things, you have to change....I see it more so, b/c I was there Anna...and still am...every freakin day of my life, I miss that child, my son, that soft voice saying, "mommie"....but that child is no longer mine, he never was....and I won't make him my only purpose in life, that is not healthy. 

Anna, look for the good, and the postive...you have so much more then I do...you at least get your grand kids.....I never do...mine live far away....and while grand kids are a special part of life, they should also not be your only purpose....you ladies have got to find other interests, otherwise, this is going to eat you up alive, and your letting it...you are doing this to yourselves, by your resistence to moving on....I know it, b/c I was there for 12 years....it ate me alive, but it was my own fault, b/c I refused to take any ownership...
and refused to accept that the life that I knew with my son was over....it has to be, it's normal....and if you gals could only realize that, life would be a lot easier on you all...

There are some here who do have very mean DIL's very self imposed, but a lot of it is b/c they are young, afraid, want to be first and foremost in they're husband's lives...without MIL hovering...and yes, a lot of DIL's want it they're way...why, b/c it's they're house, they're lives, they're husbands....we did the same thing when we were first married, however, maybe some of us were lucky enough to have a mil like my friend...who left go, and made her husband her whole purpose....when our son's leave, we now have this time, to rekindle a love affair with our husbands...b/c God only knows how much time you have left together....anything, can happen the very next moment, that will change that...so don't waste your time by crying over something you don't have, create something you do have.

I know a lot of you are going to be offended by my posts and for that I'm very sorry...and I know some of you only want to vent and cry and want support and do not view my words as support or caring...and I know that b/c those of you who are very sensitive and not ready to view what you do have, come in and defend yourselves...there is no need to do that, as I'm not pointing fingers at anyone...

My ex husband told me something once, that is really true....and that is this...

You can feel sorry for someone for so long, and after a while, if they don't start helping themselves and all they want to do is look for the negative, then it's time to distance yourself...

Life is never the same when our son's leave, they were very special to us...our purpose, our reason for living sometimes...however, they are gone, and there isn't a thing we can do about it...and if we realize that...and stop pointing fingers and blaming our DIL's....we'll be a lot healthier for it, and will eventually be able to fix the relationship, however, it will never be the same, nothing is...and it's not b/c of any other reason except, our son's are grown men who want to live they're own lives and want to fix they're own problems....

I really hope you all know that I love you and care
and just b/c my DIL and I are getting along, doesn't mean, I still don't hurt and miss that life I had with my son...but if I hold onto it, well, frankly that is not normal or healthy...

Don't respond, don't defend yourselves...just think about it please....you actually have to recondition yourself...from the life you knew...and bow out of they're lives....

the greatest gift you can give someone you love, is to sometimes let them go, and not think about our hurt, but they're happiness....believe me, that is what gives them happiness....is to know we've accepted that....if we fight it, we're telling our sons over and over again, we don't accept the love of his life, and like her or not...that is like slapping our son's in the face...I know this, b/c I lived it, I was there, and wanted change more then life itself...knowing what that darkness that pain that sorrow, it engulfed me to the point I allowed it to change my whole life....not my DIL, not my son, but I was allowing it to control me, to stagnate me, to make me hate, and say horrible things about my DIL I never met...b/c I was hurt and angry...and everything that happened was b/c they didn't like me, and I actually believed my son didn't like me anymore....and when ever something happened, the littlest thing, I thought they did it to hurt me, when in fact they did not.  My DIL is just different then I am...and we grew up differently and possess different cultures, but she is never going to be the person I think she should be and she is never going to say the things I think she should say, and that's it...so, guess what, I started to look for the good in her, and I found so much more good then bad...and realized, I was soooooo wrong....

I really hope you understand my words instead of taking offense...I don't mean to hurt anyone, but more so help you all, and I do so wish I could, believe me.

Love and prayers
Creme

Quote from: Anna on October 01, 2010, 08:24:40 AM
Hi Creme.  I know you said don't respond, but thats just not me.  I have changed, tremendously.  I am giving ods lots & lots of space.  That doesn't mean that I can't be mad at him!  Or my ndil for that matter.  I am mad as ____ at both of them.  My ndil went on FB & publicly aired some things.  She cursed & swore at me.  My dil never, ever did, or would do that.  My dil, I think, is a keeper.  I have learned that she may be one of the ones who was truly afraid that she may lose her family, & thought she had to fight.  I also think she knows now that she never has to worry about that.  I do not , & never did want to take her family away from her.  I just wanted to be a part my yds family.  I do know how lucky I am.  That doesn't change how I feel, right now, about ods & ndil.  I hope everything will be ok, but we will not go through life without seeing our ods.  Our ndil owes us an apology, because we didn't do anything to deserve what she did.  That apology will probably never come, but I cna forgive, & move on.

Anna, honestly I know your situation...and know you've changed...and you or no one else here has to feel like they have to defend they're feelings...or I'm pointing fingers and saying your wrong, I'm just asking you all to read and if it applies to you, then acknowledge it...and I don't mean you but you in general...

I could be way wrong, b/c I do not know any of you personally...and can only write from what my heart knows, my experience and feelings.
and by the way, what your ndil did was wrong, and I would, if it were me, sit them both down with me and hubby and ask her why....she's going to get defensive, however, if you can retain your cool, and tell her you mean her no harm, that you just want to get along...and never ever again, discuss family matters with either DIL....come in here and vent....

I'm wondering if by you telling her about your situation with odil, if that really frightened her....and made her question if you were going to someday feel the same way about her?  Even if she did add to the conversation at the time, what else could she do, she wanted you to like her...yanno, most DIL's are so afraid the MIL's are not going to like them...and are so sensative and insecure....so young and naieve and they don't perceive things the same as we do, b/c they are so much younger...?

I love you Anna...hope you know that...and wish for you peace in all of this someday soon, as well as the other ladies here....

Oh, and I don't mean, you can't respond, but I don't want anyone to feel like they have to defend they're feelings to me...or they're actions...and I'm not in any way, saying that your feelings are not valid...they are...

I do believe Anna, this will mend itself eventually, I do...

Creme, I'm not trying to be defensive, but would like to clarify that by my posts you have to know that I really appreciate your advice and I have you on a pedestal, however I can tell that I'm not a fan of yours. I really wish when you have something to say about me that you would tell me directly rather than using me as an example, not nice, very demeaning, I may not go about things the same way you do but I'm still trying in my own way, I don't know why you feel you can't talk to me directly, we're all here looking for support and understanding, you know the pain we are all in. I need more advice than I can give.

Quote from: guest1 on October 01, 2010, 09:11:51 AM
Creme, I'm not trying to be defensive, but would like to clarify that by my posts you have to know that I really appreciate your advice and I have you on a pedestal, however I can tell that I'm not a fan of yours. I really wish when you have something to say about me that you would tell me directly rather than using me as an example, not nice, very demeaning, I may not go about things the same way you do but I'm still trying in my own way, I don't know why you feel you can't talk to me directly, we're all here looking for support and understanding, you know the pain we are all in. I need more advice than I can give.

Guest, I remember things that are written and said, but do not remember who said them, I had to go back to look at who actually wrote that...I'm not talking behind your back, and honestly don't remember what you said....

I'm very sorry, you feel that way...it wasn't meant that way...I wasn't using you as an example as much as remembering something that was written and trying to help while adressing you and all the ladies here in my post to Anna...
and b/c I couldn't remember, I did use it as an example.  Was I wrong not to post it on your post, and say the very same thing, or to write it in here addressing all the ladies...? 
Guest, what your DIL did was paramount...a milestone, she actually took a step forward and tried to do something to please you...

When I address an envelope, to anyone, I always write Mr. and Mrs.  I would never write nana/pop pop or anything like that...it just wouldn't occur to me to do that...I honestly believe your making headway with your DIL...especially if she did something nice like that....

so please don't be upset, look for the good in her gesture...and use it to your benefit, instead of reading something into it that isn't there....

Guest, I did the very same thing...

and I'm very very sorry you feel the way you do about me...

I can't be anything more then honest....you ladies take offense to my posts, b/c you feel like I'm saying your wrong...what I'm saying is...I understand, and I've been there and I know how the littlest thing got taken out of context....b/c my DIL didn't do things the way I thought she needed to do them, right away I thought, "Oh she is doing this to hurt me".  She had no idea, she was doing things her way, the only way she knew how to do them....
the only way she was taught, it wasn't intended to hurt me at all, it was who she was....

Guest...I know when you guys come in here, you need support, and need to feel like your feelings are valid...and they are, the hurt is very real and awful...despairing and lonely....

however, if I can save any of you guys from 12 years of hurt, then that is of utmost importance, rather then caring more if you like me, or not...but if someday, you slowly start to see what I'm saying might have the smallest speck of validity, then I don't care if you like me or not...what I care about is, your relationship with your son and DIL and that you have peace and happiness....

I'm sorry...but I really don't see a difference...and I know your upset with me b/c I don't agree with you, and you think what I'm saying is "your wrong"...and that's all you can see right now...but I'm not saying that, what I'm saying is....look for what you do have b/c no one, will be able to live up to your expectations of how they should be and what they should do...personally, I think it was pretty darn awesome for your DIL to take the time to do that...if you acknowledge that and specially thank her with true happiness in your voice, more good things will happen. Its' the small things like this that keep happening...it doesn't happen over night...but the more you thank her, the more she will reward you, and visa versa....

You don't have to like me Guest...what I hope for more then anything else in the world, is that you at least consider the thoughts...remembering, I could always be wrong.

Yanno, knowing what I know now, I think in a lot of these cases, not all, but a few of them, no one really did anything wrong, they were just being themselves....

and think about it, I have not a thing to gain by coming in here and being honest...I know people don't care for me...they are offended by my honestly...and they take a lot of things I say as if I'm siding with DIL's...I'm not...I'm actually on your side...and do care a whole lot more then you'll ever realize or know.

Creme

Creme:

I also acknowledge your great posts.  The only thing I dont agree with you is that youfrequently  mention that maybe to our eyes with did not do nothing wrong, but that dil is reacting because she felt it differently.  I would clarify that many many times (not all as you say)  they are not reacting because they feel something you did or didnt do an offense, they react this way because they dont want to give a chance.  Many many times they just want you out......not for special reasons. 

After I made peace with dil (after two painful years) she did acknowledge that she didnt have any complaints about us.....that her attitude was because she was afraid we would try to interfere in her life, and besides that all her unwed friends and her always spoke of  setting boundaries to mil from the very start.     Bad dils dont need a reason....they set boundaries before they even know you.   And this Creme....is a common denominator in this new generation.

Love

Quote from: Nana on October 01, 2010, 12:02:20 PM
Creme:

I also acknowledge your great posts.  The only thing I dont agree with you is that youfrequently  mention that maybe to our eyes with did not do nothing wrong, but that dil is reacting because she felt it differently.  I would clarify that many many times (not all as you say)  they are not reacting because they feel something you did or didnt do an offense, they react this way because they dont want to give a chance.  Many many times they just want you out......not for special reasons. 

After I made peace with dil (after two painful years) she did acknowledge that she didnt have any complaints about us.....that her attitude was because she was afraid we would try to interfere in her life, and besides that all her unwed friends and her always spoke of  setting boundaries to mil from the very start.     Bad dils dont need a reason....they set boundaries before they even know you.   And this Creme....is a common denominator in this new generation.

Love

Hi Nana, thanks for sharing your thoughts...I do appreciate your words and your opinions.

yanno, I just have a really difficult time believing that this is a common denominator with this generation....I know so many many people who get along so well with they're DIL's and Mil's who really cherish the women they're son's have married.

The DIL's who get along well with they're inlaws are not on the internet looking for a place to vent, b/c they have no need of it...otherwise, I think, and I could be wrong, but actually, I wish they'd be in here posting and sharing they're lives and secrets with all of us.

I work with this younger generation you speak of, and am the oldest one there....and they all, except one, absolutely love they're MIL's....and then my friends...especially the one, her DIL's call her one to two times a week and the one, asked her if she could call her mom, and calls her almost every day.  Another friend is still close with her ex DIL and now her new DIL as well....

I promise I'm not making this up....

When I say, you didn't do anything wrong, but perhaps your DIL's viewed something you did or said, that offended her, I don't mean your wrong...no one is wrong here and no one is right...

We actually hurt people with our words in everyday life and don't even realize it...b/c of the way we were conditioned to believe...

Your DIL's are way different from all of you...different ideas....different expectations....and I bet, if some of you, b/c again, I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but I bet if you sat down and were open to hearing DIL tell you what happened, you'd be shocked.  I was...the only thing with that is, you have to be ready to hear what hurt her, without taking offense...and then reassure her, that, that wasn't what you intended or meant.  And you cannot do that, until you are able to really want to know what you did to offend her....it may have been the smallest thing, but it hurt her, scared her or offended her....

I mean it...when my DIL and I started sharing stories, we could not believe how each of us took insult to what the other did and it wasn't intended. 

I used Guest as an example, and I couldn't remember who wrote that, but it stuck, b/c something like that which is very small, can be taken in a hurtful way...look how Guest's feelings were hurt...because her dil didn't do what Guest thinks she should do....

I can't live up to DIL's expectations of what she has grown in her mind over the years of what a MIL should be...and neither can she me...I've learned to accept and love the person she is...and yanno what...we, she and I, have so much in common, and so much not in common.

But the fact that I'm trying to explain here is, she was so shocked at some of the things I told her hurt me, that she even said, "I'm going to have to revisit that behavior, b/c I don't want others to think that way of me".  I told her, "well, don't do it for me, b/c now that I know it wasn't directed towards me, I'm fine with it."  I thought actually believed she was telling me, I am not wanted and welcome in her life...that was my perception, and she told me, she wants me to be family, she wants to get to know me....

The trick is, we were both ready, to share, and to accept the fact, that we both did things that hurt each other without realizing it.

And of course DIL's will react differently b/c they are much younger, much less experienced when they first get married.

And, to, young girls who are getting married sit around and talk, just like we do, and they share the same horror stories...about MIL's....some are valid, some are not...however, I will tell you this, from only my own experience...I wish I had set boundaries right from the start with my MIL....I know she meant well, and she didn't have a mean bone in her body, but when she said to me, "you should do it this way"....I felt like she was saying, my way was all wrong....and that is why I can see a DIL's side of it...not that they are right and you are wrong....or visa versa...

But, you've gotta be ready to explore this openly and honestly and not take offense....and I really do believe there are DIL's here who really want to get along, they just don't know how to go about it....and there are a whole lot of women out there who will take offense and feel like your personally attacking them, when you give them your honest opinion. 

And Nana, I'm not there, I really don't know you, your son or DIL....so I can't really say any of my posts are right...however, while I do believe that there are some DIL's who want you out, there are others who are hurting just as much as some of you are, b/c they don't know what in the world to do, and you can see that by some of the DIL's posts here....

Relationships Nana, are the hardest things to deal with, the only reason why husband and wife usually get on so  well, is b/c the husband as a man, usually agrees with his wife, just so there is no confrontations and tends to give the wife her way....however, put two women in the same kitchen for any length of time and see what happens.

Consider this Nana
Your DIL told you why she treated you the way she did...and she really had no complaints with you...she said she was "afraid"....you would interfer in they're lives...Nana, she had no other experience to go on, she wanted to love your son...but as DIL's are thrown into a whole new family surrounding, and she is worried about so many things....are they going to like me, shall I reject them, before they reject me, then it won't hurt so much...is she going to not approve of the way I keep the house, or is she going to judge me on my parents behavior, which she acknowledges, isn't always the best....and she is a stranger, and here is this loving mother of her husband to be, wanting to be so close to her and accept her in they're family as if she were born there....but she is afraid if she does that, then she must adhere to all of your traditions, wishes, phone calls, stop in's etc.

She's scared...period...she doesn't know you and know what to expect. 

Yanno Nana, some people cannot say I'm sorry, however, your DIL's words were actually saying, she was sorry, or she wouldn't have told you the truth.  Nana, that took a lot of guts on her part to come out with that...b/c there are a lot of young girls out there who if you asked them if anything was wrong, they'd say, "no" when there really is something wrong. 

I know the hurt and pain you went thru, it's like a train wreck..all of a sudden one day your son is there, and then he's not...

I expected when my son got married, he and she were going to be really good friends with me, like he and all his friends were....I expected we'd do things together, and it would be no different, except now I'd have a daughter....but she was a stanger, afraid, and I know my son talked about me all the time...and he did some things that must have hurt her, like calling me on they're honeymoon, and other things...which I actually pushed him away and told him, you've got a wife now, you shouldn't be sharing these things with me any longer....

Nana, its a very very tough call...but in order for any relationship to work, it takes two to be able to really listen to each other without getting hurt...

I wanted it so bad, I was willing to hear where I made mistakes....so I could correct them....but before that, boy oh boy, if you would have told me I made any mistakes, I'd have said, "I didn't do anything, I didn't do anything...and I actually believed I didn't".  But indirectly, I did...

How is your relationship now with her?  Yanno, as our DIL's grow older, and have they're own children they start to realize, the importance of grand parents...but it takes some longer then others to mature....it's all in the learning process.

Nana, please don't take this post of mine as harsh or offensive...and I'm not saying your wrong...or right, b/c I don't know...only your heart knows the answer to that...I'm only sharing thoughts...which may or may not apply to you...?

I just wish, all this stuff could be made better for all of you...

My situation is not much different from yours...I miss my son terrible...but I know, it's his turn now...it's his life now...and if he chooses to have me there, they will ask, but it's no longer about him, but them...they are a couple and it has to be mutual...and if she is nervous with me, still, then I must adhere to that if I want it to work...I want to love her more then anything else, but I don't want to push her either...and I will always remember, I am a guest in they're home, not my son's mother, but my DIL's guest. 

Quote from: Anna on October 01, 2010, 07:51:06 AM
HI Guest1.  My ods has told me that whenever something doesn't go ndils way, she is packing her bags & saying she wants a divorce.  Ods says that the least little thing & she's out the door.  Ods is trying to get her to see, that you shouldn't react that way over the little things.  She has cut us out, over something we didn't even do, so ods is absolutely walking on thin shells.

He should call her bluff and tell her not to let the door hit her in the @ss on the way out.  Seriously.  If she won't go to therapy and work on her issues.  He should run...run like he stole something.  There is no point in tying yourself to a situation like this and suffering for the rest of your life.  None at all.

Quote
He should call her bluff and tell her not to let the door hit her in the @ss on the way out.  Seriously.  If she won't go to therapy and work on her issues.  He should run...run like he stole something.  There is no point in tying yourself to a situation like this and suffering for the rest of your life.  None at all.

I totally agree with this Glitterati....she is manipulating him with emotional blackmail...the worse thing you can do to a relationship is threaten something like this....it is controlling the situation...and is so wrong...she should seek counseling...and if she doesn't then she's saying I'm right and everyone else is wrong.

she and he both have to change in order to grow into a healthier relationship...and she is stating, it's my way or else....which she will pass that kind of attitude down to her children...sad...

I'd like to add something else to this discussion, it may not apply to any of you, just something to think about...

when I left my husband, I was just as devestated as all of you are now, I felt I failed...and asked so many questions...like
how could he do that to me
how could he throw away the trust I had for him, our marriage, our vows?
How could he even lie to me?
How could he manipulate and turn everything around on me...and so forth...
When you go thru a divorce, it is a death, a death of a relationship and devestating...

so, for 3 years, I  asked these questions...then, one day, slowly, it started to dawn on me, that it wasn't all him...
and I started to ask myself,
Why did I choose someone who could be so frivolus with our lives
Why was I attracted to someone like this and trust him with my heart...I saw flags...and on and on

The point I'm trying to make, is when I stopped blaming him, and yes, he was wrong, indeed, but why did I choose someone so insecure and with so little confidence? 

When I started answering questions about myself, a whole new world opened up for me....

when you look to the self for answers, that is when answers come, and I've applied that to my life ever since...
I know, I need to take ownership in some things, not beat myself up or be a door mat, but I know, when a relationship goes south, I need to sit back and look at me...and believe me, there are some relationships that are just not good fits...however, we  don't get to choose our DIL's or MIL's...we are thrown into it without choice.

I  read this and it makes sense...and thought it might help while it is directed at the DIL, I believe there is wisdom in this for all...to consider....

Parents develop an older and deeper relationship with their adult child, which is to be expected. Even so, healthy parents will welcome their child's spouse into their lives, if that person is loving and kind.

However, when a parent's preference for their own child over their child's spouse exists and is expressed, distance and hurt can result. During a visit or phone call, parents may show more interest in their child's goings-on than in a spouse's. Or they may give more lavish gifts to their child, disregarding a spouse. These gestures of favoritism can lead a spouse to feel left out and not valued when around in-laws.

I'm not saying anyone here does this....I'm just searching for answers right along with you...and throwing some ideas out there that I have read....

Another example:

Linda grew up in a traditional-style home. After she and Roy moved into their new home, they enjoyed expressing their own, more modern style. When Linda's parents were invited to visit, they questioned, "Is this some sort of phase you're going through?" Their opinions seemed disapproving and hurtful to the young couple.

Along the same lines as intrusiveness, some in-laws have difficulty letting go of their roles as parents. Instead of transitioning into a mutual adult relationship, they may offer unasked-for advice, criticisms, or even withhold approval if they disagree with the younger couple's prefrence

Emotional Distance.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, some parents maintain cold, disconnected relationships. They seem emotionally unavailable, self-absorbed, aloof, or unfriendly. Although the couple desires a warmer relationship, they find themselves rebuffed or ignored. Sometimes, unresolved issues or hurts may account for this problem between couples. But other times, it has to do with the character of the in-laws as people. They may simply be distant folks. Regardless of the cause, it is a painful situation.

Dependency.
Although we are told to care for our parents (1 Timothy 5:4), there are times when couples should not become involved in the problems of their in-laws. For example, parents may impose on the younger couple to referee their arguments, or try to get them to take sides. They may want the couple to rescue a drug-addicted child that they can't fix. Or they may be financially irresponsible, and ask the couple to bail them out. Taking responsibility for issues like these can be inappropriate for the young couple.

Choose Change

Perhaps you've attempted to "love them through it," or you've chosen to ignore them totally. Either way, you may have noticed that these types of in-law problems may not diminish with time. Many of the issues are generated from longstanding patterns that are rooted in character issues. This means that if you want to see improvement, you have to take some initiative.

Reality-check.
First, find out if there really is a problem, or if it's merely your perception. Sometimes we react to others based on our experiences, which can cloud judgment. A reserved husband may see his in-laws as intrusive, when in fact, they are merely outgoing. To help gain a proper perspective, ask a trusted friend to observe and verify your perception of the situation.

Do a self-inventory.
After you've identified the problem, ask yourself how you might be contributing to it. Jesus reminds us that we must first deal with our own actions before we help others correct theirs (Matthew 7:1-5). Deal with any unloving attitude you might have. Beware of promoting a problem by being silent, compliant, or rationalizing. By speaking the truth in love (Ephesians 4:13), we can foster growth and healing.

Be direct.
Linda and Roy were passive in dealing with their in-law problems. As a result, they began to withdraw emotionally from her folks. In choosing to find a solution to their problems, they promised to be gently honest with her parents. In addition, Linda made a commitment to put her marriage first, and her parents second. Approaching the situation as a united front provided new courage.

Confront your in-laws gently, but directly. Though you may need to involve your spouse, don't avoid dealing with the problem personally. Let them know how you feel and that it gets in the way of being close to them. They may react with hurt, withdrawal, or anger. Or they may be surprised at what they learn, and thank you for letting them know.

Discuss the issue with true heart, feelings and knowing that the other person is just as hurt as you are....ask them the why's....ask them if your perception is off....and your being insecure, b/c you feel as if a wall has been placed between you all....don't point fingers, don't be accusive...ask them "What can I do to make this better", reassure them that you want a healthy relationship for everyone concerned...don't play on sympathy or try to manipulate they're feelings because your hurting, it won't work that way...remember, they are hurting to...

Dear Creme:

Thanks for answering my post.  You are right that I used the wrong term "common denominator".  Some dils do expect to have a good relationship with mils.    But again, not all.  Many do build a barrier.....just in case.  I swear to you in my case I didnt do anything but try to pleased her.    I did ask my dil a lot of questions when we reconcile?  I asked "Did I ever expressed my opinion in things that were none of my business"   "Did I ever visit you when I was not invited you?  Did I called your home everyday?  Did I every said "no" to something you asked for from us?   She answered no to all.  Creme, I was so careful when I spoke to her in using the correct words.  I always received her with a smile....and offered all I had.   All the family watching told me I was too  servile with her.  My relative's opinion was that she just didnt like me.     It was after all these that I decided to distanced myself from her.  I spoke to son and we both cried a lot.   He told me he loved me and of course saw what was going on.  He just said that he was loyal to me - that he never visited his in-laws because of the way she treated us.  He said he would still visit with the baby (then it was only one gc).    Until then Creme she (dil) got it.   After a month she came back to my house with a different attitude.  She was now again the dil that I knew before my son and her got married.  Now everything is fine....really good.   I love her very much now.  When our second child was born she called me from the hospital and asked me if I was coming.  She deliver her baby in San Diego, and I lived about 200 miles away.  She also said Ï love you.    That is why I always give hope  to all lovely ladies of WW...If it happened to me...it can happen to anyone. 

On the other hand.  All my friends daughter's arel always complaining about their mil.  My friends do not approve of therir daughters doing this to their mils.  They too dont have a reason.  They  say that they just dont want them  in their lives...only mom.   I speak to my friend's daughters about this and how they eed to accept their in-laws if they truly love their husbands.  They answer Ït is because my mil is not like you.  Of course they are not.  I am their mothers dear friend, not their mil. 

So you see.  It is what I have seen first hand.  I did have and still have a good relationship with my mil.  She is now 90 but we are very close.  My mom was also a very good mil.  My sisters in law loved her until the day she died.  So I see things have changed dramatically.  Of course way back...there were also some terrible mils, but in my side of the world, the in-laws were family. 


Creme you dont have to think I am offended.. I appreciate your advice.  They are outstanding.  I am just expressing my point of view in this regard.  You know a lot and are very wise and intelligent...no doubt.  I always read your posts and advice with pleasure.  You are like the salt and pepper of this site.  Good you are so sincere.  I know all us us at a certain moment cant stand the truth....I can handle it perfectly well.  I am a confrontable (?) person...I like to speak out when I  have something to say.  I am not afraid of words... and believe me....when I was having problems with dil....I was another person...I was intimidated by her...I lost my self-esteem and probably ...I also lost my spontaneous joy.    But I am back. 


Love you Creme....really do

I have to say something to complement you, Kathleen and all others who ask this question.  At least you are asking what you did wrong.  My MIL would never ask that nor believe she had any part in our issues.  My hats off to you for asking yourself that question.  See, that is what makes this group different from the ones in the MIL jokes and the ones so many of us DILs have to deal with.  Why couldn't we all swap in-laws.  :)

Quote from: guest1 on October 01, 2010, 07:28:03 AM
Anna, DS hasn't said this to us in so many words, but has implied many times that DIL has told him that it's her way or the highway, he loves her and her DD and feels he has no choice but to do what she says. We have never put him in a position where he has to choose, we know better than that, DIL has and he's afraid of her, a 4', 70 lb. woman. lol

Your DIL is wrong.  A marriage is about partnership, love, understanding, and compromise...and so much more.  Not one single spouse should rule the household.  This is so wrong...it should be an equal partnership.

Creme, I don't think you understood what I wrote.  Nowhere in my post did I say that I didn't like you or didn't welcome your advice, but quite the opposite, what I didn't like was the fact that you used me as a bad example and you referred to me as "the woman". I have been posting here on and off for a while and I found that to be highly inappropiate and derrogatorry.  I look forward to reading your posts, I understand that you're speaking from experience and I really appreciate everything you have to say, I want to follow your advice and I'm trying, it just isn't easy when DIL doesn't care one way or the other.

And to all the DIL's here, I think I can speak for all the MILs, we welcome all your comments and suggestions, we want to learn from all of you, but please try not to be so harsh, we are in a very sad situation, those of you who have children, try to put yourselves in our shoes for a moment and remember we are trying our best to work things out with our dils, we're making mistakes along the way but we're trying.

Glitterati and MLW07, as I said DS really loves his wife, he's a wonderful husband and father, he had a good example, he's really torn trying to please DIL and wanting to have a relationship with us, he's told me a couple of times that he's lost interest in the things he liked to do, admitted to be "almost" depressed, his self esteem is so low when he was such a mischievous little boy and as he grew, the life of the party, DS told me that DIL complains that he's not the man she married, he's losing himself trying to please her, it's like he doesn't know who he is or where he came from anymore.

He used to be so proud of us and who he was and now he's not allowed to show those feelings. He also mentioned some time ago that he had been talking to someone, didn't say who and I didn't dare ask, but whoever it was  doesn't have our best interest at heart but only DIL's.  I'll share a secret with you, he calls me everyday but only when DIL is not around he'll say "I love you" to me. 

DIL is not a teenager, I think she's a little too old to be acting this way. One of her sisters told us once that she was a spoiled brat used to getting her way.


Everyone tells me that DS is going to get tired of that someday but in the meantime it's devastating for us to watch from afar and not be able to do anything.

Quote from: guest1 on October 01, 2010, 04:25:46 PM
Creme, I don't think you understood what I wrote.  Nowhere in my post did I say that I didn't like you or didn't welcome your advice, but quite the opposite, what I didn't like was the fact that you used me as a bad example and you referred to me as "the woman". I have been posting here on and off for a while and I found that to be highly inappropiate and derrogatorry.  I look forward to reading your posts, I understand that you're speaking from experience and I really appreciate everything you have to say, I want to follow your advice and I'm trying, it just isn't easy when DIL doesn't care one way or the other.

And to all the DIL's here, I think I can speak for all the MILs, we welcome all your comments and suggestions, we want to learn from all of you, but please try not to be so harsh, we are in a very sad situation, those of you who have children, try to put yourselves in our shoes for a moment and remember we are trying our best to work things out with our dils, we're making mistakes along the way but we're trying.

Guest

I have MS, therefore, I don't remember who writes what...I just remember the post about the card while I was writing...and yes, I refer to people as the woman or man or whatever, if I can't remember who said it or wrote it...it wasn't meant to be insulting...I was simply discussing an issue I remembered....and now, so sorry I did...

I honestly do not remember who writes what...my memory is bad...especially if I'm tired...but really, didn't think the author of that post would mind, b/c they did write it publically, sharing they're thoughts, your thoughts...your feelings, your hurt...

you are offended b/c I didn't agree with you...and you took it like I was saying your wrong in feeling that way...and that is not how I meant it...If I had agreed with you in my post to Anna, I don't think it would be an issue...and exactly the point I was trying to make to Anna and all....I don't think your DIL did it to hurt you, and if she would be me, I would have addressed the card in the very same way...but that's just me...doesn't say I'm right...Guest, and your wrong, it is simply how I would view it...or write it...I'd be overjoyed at my DIL doing something so nice....to me, it would be a breakthrough

And I guess I should remember everyone's individual struggles,but unfortunately I can't and don't...I can read books and watch movies over and over again, b/c I forget. 

I hope you realize, I wasn't accusing you of not liking me...what I was saying is, I know women in here take offense to my posts, b/c I don't  always agree with them...and some don't like me, sorry if I worded it wrong and you thought I meant you...I meant everyone, and it doesn't matter...really...I'd prefer to be liked, but not everyone is going to...and I won't reply to posts always agreeing if I don't, just to be liked...

and it's ok, like I said before, I'm not here to win a popularity contest...I'm here to learn and to grow, right along with you all, and if by chance, something I've said might help someone, then all the better....if not, then it wasn't supposed to be...however, I really do believe from my heart, that being  honest, is not being harsh...and have tried very hard to post in a caring way all the time....however, you and others percieve it differently....and but please know I'm doing my best...

however, we can't all agree all the time...and I know it's very difficult to post what I'm feeling at the cost of everyone's friendship, and these DIL's who are here, are not here to hurt anyone, but to also help...being  honest, is not being harsh, b/c someone disagrees with you...I'm sorry Guest...

When I have a problem with someone, I want them to spare us both angonizing time wasted by not discussing it...even if what they say might bite a little, I'm going to think about it and take from it what I can to help our situation....I write as I am....and apologize for that...but I cannot be any other way...it is who I am...what I feel, and it doesn't mean, b/c I disagree that you or anyone else is wrong or a horrible person, it does mean, however, that I care enough to take the chance to tell you my feelings....opinions and beliefs...I don't know if you just want to vent and cry a little, or you want to look at things from a different perspective, does't mean that different perspective is always going to be right, or fit your situation, it's just an idea thrown out there....and I feel and maybe I'm wrong, but the DIL's here are not anything like your DIL's...otherwise, they wouldn't be here...they are trying to learn to...but if they participate and don't agree with you, it doesn't mean they are harsh, they are however, giving you they're perspectives...which has really got to be hard for them...cuz I know it's hard for me.

Creme, with this I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Quote from: Anna on October 01, 2010, 07:51:06 AM
HI Guest1.  My ods has told me that whenever something doesn't go ndils way, she is packing her bags & saying she wants a divorce.  Ods says that the least little thing & she's out the door.  Ods is trying to get her to see, that you shouldn't react that way over the little things.  She has cut us out, over something we didn't even do, so ods is absolutely walking on thin shells.

Hi Anna,

It has been quite a while since I have posted...

My son's divorce will be final very soon.

I have to tell you that your ndil is acting the same way my x-dil acted. If she doesn't change her controlling ways she may get her wish.

On a happier note...my daughter had her baby boy last week.

I love being a grandma.  :)

Quote from: guest1 on October 01, 2010, 05:33:01 PM
Glitterati and MLW07, as I said DS really loves his wife, he's a wonderful husband and father, he had a good example, he's really torn trying to please DIL and wanting to have a relationship with us, he's told me a couple of times that he's lost interest in the things he liked to do, admitted to be "almost" depressed, his self esteem is so low when he was such a mischievous little boy and as he grew, the life of the party, DS told me that DIL complains that he's not the man she married, he's losing himself trying to please her, it's like he doesn't know who he is or where he came from anymore.

He used to be so proud of us and who he was and now he's not allowed to show those feelings. He also mentioned some time ago that he had been talking to someone, didn't say who and I didn't dare ask, but whoever it was  doesn't have our best interest at heart but only DIL's.  I'll share a secret with you, he calls me everyday but only when DIL is not around he'll say "I love you" to me. 

DIL is not a teenager, I think she's a little too old to be acting this way. One of her sisters told us once that she was a spoiled brat used to getting her way.


Everyone tells me that DS is going to get tired of that someday but in the meantime it's devastating for us to watch from afar and not be able to do anything.

Guest...I was talking about Anna's ods and his new wife.

Quote from: cremebrulee on October 01, 2010, 08:08:44 AM
No one should ever be put in the position where they have to choose, and I don't believe any of us mother's have done that...however, what is so difficult for us to understand, is, they are married and have a new woman in they're lives, we are and shouldn't be no longer they're first priority...

Every mother goes thru this separation and depression of loosing they're sons to another woman...some worse then others b/c they can't let go....they want to be involved in they're son's life, however, it doesn't work....

Some of you have more then one child...I do not...I lost 3 children, b/c I couldn't carry them... 

You have a Husband, I have no one...if I did, I'd certainly not miss my son as much...b/c I'd forget about my son and consentrate all my attention to starting a new life now with hubby. 

Creme.. you brought up some interesting points and I can see how with the right frame of mind some of your suggestions could work for the better... I highlighted sections from your first posting on this subject matter that did concern me and I was trying not to take them out of content. 

As a parent and the mother of a married son, I would hate to wake every morning feeling that I lost my son to marriage.  Marriage is a bond of two people in part to show each other that they are truly committed in all ways.  I never thought of it as loosing him to another woman, gosh that turns the entire tradition of matrimony into nothing more then a rugby competition or worse a boxing match.  Are you not saying that for yourself that you've actually lost 4 children if this is how you really view your son's marriage.

I and my friends who have had sons and daughters marry have not fallen into depression and began to suffer from separation anxiety. And yes while I am myself married (99% of the time happily), I could never simply forget about one of my children while I concentrated on what you refer to my new life with hubby. Remember we are mother's and great at multi-tasking and multi-loving.

While I do agree that my children once married do need to make their union a top priority, but never should marriage be their only priority.  I think that most importantly they need to continue their own self growth, secondly to support the growth of their spouse, but then their extended family/God/jobs etc really should have a high priority in a balanced individuals life. 

I'm sadden to think that any parent whether it's the parent of the bride or the groom, should ever look at marriage as a means to an end.  Instead it should be the opportunity to watch your children come into themselves and explode into adulthood and doing so with someone they can intimately love. 

Hurt feelings begin when that balance is off kilter, and personally I think it should not be that challenging to stay balanced.  Mutual respect is a must by everyone.  To say to the mothers of the sons that they should excuse themselves and not be a part of their son's life or worse to say that this mother/son relationship simply can't work is not right and I don't know if I could disagree any more strongly.   

If anyone can tell me how to post a quote, please let me know.  I can't figure it out and wanted to reply to ML, who said I was to be complimented for thinking about what I did wrong.

ML: It's all I thought about for two years.  I kept myself awake nights picking over my relationship with my son like I pick over a pot of uncooked beans, looking for that one hard bean or little rock that will spoil the batch.  Eventually I saw that---trying to accept blame for what they were doing---as part of my son and DIL's manipulation.  Eventually, through my other son, he sent back some of the reasons for the distance and then the cutoff.  I saw he was perfectly willing to bash his parents to his brothers, almost as if he was inviting those brothers to join them.  I saw that his reasons were as flimsy as wet noodles and could have gone the other way, just as I wrote in my first post.  So this was something that he and his wife wanted to do, so she could spend all her time with her family and none with us. 

Nana I appreciate all your remarks; you understand what I was trying to say, and that is, for some people, they are going to find fault no matter what you do.  I've given up on guilt and self-blame.  It leads nowhere except to insomnia and even health problems.  It's a total waste of time; even picking over a pot of beans is time better spent.

If you love and care for someone, you don't spend your days looking for their faults and mistakes.  That may be the hardest thing of all to accept, that somehow these adult children (how I love that phrase, adults acting like children) just do not care enough about us to make a mature relationship.  When I say "us" I don't mean all of you, for only you can judge that, I mean my husband and me.

Kathleen

QuoteLaurieS

As a parent and the mother of a married son, I would hate to wake every morning feeling that I lost my son to marriage.  Marriage is a bond of two people in part to show each other that they are truly committed in all ways.  I never thought of it as loosing him to another woman, gosh that turns the entire tradition of matrimony into nothing more then a rugby competition or worse a boxing match.  Are you not saying that for yourself that you've actually lost 4 children if this is how you really view your son's marriage.

for lack of a better word, I used the word lost my son...he isn't lost, he's gone...and yes, I view a son's marriage to his wife as a huge change in my life, he is now another's woman's man and not my child any longer..he is his own man...has his own life and responsibilities...I've not really lost him, I've lost that child I guess is what I'm trying to say...however, as many people say, who have sons and DIL's they get along with, when your son marries, he becomes a different person, as he should, he's grown up now with a wife (another woman) and he is no longer mine, or never was for that matter.  He is now, his wife's husband and man...unlike a rugby competition, but when the two women are arguing over them, I can see the similarites...LOL

And yes, when two woman are fighting over they're son/husband, it is in fact similar to a love triangle.  I didn't say is a love triangle, but very similar to one.  I've had two counselors tell me that...and it puts them in a very uncomfortable/pecular position.  Also, put it in a perspective for me....I felt ashamed that I couldn't see how ridiculous I was being for fighting over him...constantly feeling like he'd changed so much he wasn't the person I once knew, and kept saying, we were so close, and now that is gone, referring to it as like a death...being a mother, I wasn't able to let go. 

And yes, Lorie, I lost 3 babies which I couldn't carry, before my son...

yes, we are mothers and woman who are great at multi tasking...however, our son's are gone out of our lives...they have moved on and are evolving, as it should be...as we should be...we are so ridden with the schedules of everyday life, while our children are growing, that now, life is ours, and our husbands, in which we can utilize the time to rekindle our love, and continue with the dreams we put on hold when the children started arriving.

QuoteWhile I do agree that my children once married do need to make their union a top priority, but never should marriage be their only priority.

Yes, absolutely...as well as they're children...not they're only priority, but think about it....he works full time, some two jobs, has responsiblities at home...cleaning up around the house, like lawn work, landscaping, etc...trying to fit in time for his wife and children...and when we mother's insist on having some of they're time, it really weighs on them...they want to feel like they want to come, not made to feel guilty or they're bad for not coming around or calling...I know when I get home from work the last thing I want to do is be on the phone, it's my down rest time and I don't want to have to think about anything...I remember those horribly busy days when my son needed me as a mother, confidant, taxie, sunday school teacher, youth group advisor, cook, cleaner, worked full time and took care of laundry, ironing, etc.   

QuoteI think that most importantly they need to continue their own self growth, secondly to support the growth of their spouse, but then their extended family/God/jobs etc really should have a high priority in a balanced individuals life.

What life is balanced...?  Really, there is no balance except what you view as balanced, and if you feel that way, I have no quarrels...however, I know how busy my son is, and even if he lived around here...I would never expect him to be as close to me as we once were, he has other priorities, and I am his mother...his life is full of activity running his daughter around, and taking care of his wife, trying to capture some quality special time with her...I raised him to believe, that once married, always find time to play, if that is a get away weekend, dinner and a movie...but never get caught up in a routine that doesn't include spontinuity and change where his wife is concerned...buget money for vacations and get aways, and they do.
 

QuoteI'm sadden to think that any parent whether it's the parent of the bride or the groom, should ever look at marriage as a means to an end.

It is the end of life with our sons as we knew it...life evolves, continually and nothing ever stays the same forever...it can't, that is nature, the planets evolve, constantly, and evolving is like a growth, or as I view it, a change.  We have a choice, we can make it great or we can stay stagnated in our old routines, and fight those changes, and when we fight those changes, we stagnate and the rest of the world doesn't wait for us, it continues to evolve.  Change is inevidable...and a means to an end if you so wish, but with every ending, there are new beginnings, new doors open if we care to walk through them...or not?

QuoteInstead it should be the opportunity to watch your children come into themselves and explode into adulthood and doing so with someone they can intimately love. 

Indeed, if we're lucky we get to see that, but from a distance...not involved in they're every day lives...I have girlfriends many, some in they're late 30's early  40's, and they get along famously with they're MIL's or DIL's.  We've had this discussion and many of them say they're MIL's just seem to know, that they're son's need to move on and are now grown and they accept it.  I so wish those same people would be posting about they're experiences...and they cherish they're DIL's/MIL's.  Personally, I think it is a very good thing that my son lives away.  He calls me every week and always has, and we have the nicest chats...however, there are no inlaws to interfer with they're lives.  Personally, they moved home for a year and moved back to where they're living now...and believe inlaws were part of the reason, his father and step mother can be very smothering, stopping by without asking if this is a good time or not, and continually interferring in they're lives, telling them if this is a good thing to do or not...I know his father, his mother was the same way and it drove me nuts.
She wasn't interferring b/c she was a bad person, she felt she was doing the right thing...but made our lives misrable and part of the reason why we broke up...way to smothering...

QuoteHurt feelings begin when that balance is off kilter, and personally I think it should not be that challenging to stay balanced.

Again, balanced is a perfect world, what works for some, might not work for others...what is balanced for you, may not be balanced for me or for my DIL...we're all different and have different expectations and percepceptions about how we should live our lives...

QuoteMutual respect is a must by everyone.  To say to the mothers of the sons that they should excuse themselves and not be a part of their son's life or worse to say that this mother/son relationship simply can't work is not right and I don't know if I could disagree any more strongly.

I feel the same way...no one should not be a part of they're son's life...however, mothers need to realize life as you knew it with your son b/f he was married, well, it just won't be there any longer...it changes, he moves on and so must we...
and why not utilize this time productively, persuing dreams and trips with out husbands that we put on hold, why not go back to school or find a career...get involved in art, reading classes, book clubs, art classes, or community projects...?  People who do this, who get involved in change, do not have problems with they're dils or if they do, they realize, if they don't do something about it, they will stagnate a gift that was given to them...LIFE....and life is change, change in attitudes, change in life styles...etc.

Here are some more things I've found that may help...


•Remember that your children and daughter in law have their own lives. If you want to see them, call and ask when they're available.
•Be flexible. For instance, if they can't see you on Christmas Day, then gracefully enjoy their company on Christmas Eve. Flexibility is a prime way to be a great mother in law.
•Ask "why" if your daughter in law asks you to change your behavior. Ask why to understand better, not to argue or defend yourself.
•Be patient if you experience hostility, suspicion, or distance from your daughter in law. Build a good relationship with your daughter in law by not reacting immediately to slights.
•Ask before you help with dinner, housecleaning, or rearranging the furniture. Building a good relationship with your daughter in law involves knowing your boundaries.
•Accept and learn about your daughter in law's generation, culture, nationality, age, and mindset – which is supposed to be different than yours!
•Sign a contract if you lend or borrow money from your son's wife.
•Talk openly, honestly, and humbly about miscommunications, arguments, or other conflicts with her. Talk about building a good relationship with your daughter in law and your experiences as a mother in law.
•Be responsive to your daughter in law's needs and feelings even if you don't understand them. Building a good relationship with your daughter in law is about empathy.
•Treat all your children equally – including your in-laws. A great mother in law is impartial and fair.
•Tell mother in law jokes!

I realize, there are some DIL's out there who are very evil as well as some really frumpy MIL's who are also evil and can't let go...and DIL's who keep they're children from they're grand parents are to me, well, that is dispicable...to use the children to hurt someone, let alone her own children...

There are also personality conflicts where two women are never going to see eye to eye....and are or never will be a good fit, however, there is no reason why the two of them cannot get along and be respectful and civil to each other when together...

But when you say hateful things, you can never retract those words...and I can tell you from the bottom of my heart...I said the most God awful horrible things about my DIL...and she was not one of those things.  I was angry, hurt and unable to see beyond my own feelings...I refused to realize, that she may have different perceptions and everything that happened, I built upon...and said, ahhh hah...see, there's another thing, she's trying to tell me she hates me, or she's telling me I'm not welcome, and she wasn't doing that at all...what she was doing was being herself and I took it so personally, I read into her behavior as a personal attack against me...that she was trying to drive a wedge between my son and myself. 
She thought I was doing the same thing to her...

As an inlaw, you do spend time with your kids...but it's never the same, and unfortunately, if DIL is close to her mother and father, and sibblings, they will go where she wants to be...probably more then the son's parents, b/c he wants to please her and make her happy.  It makes him feel successful when he sees her smile....

LIke I said before, I know MIL's whose DIL's call them a lot, and come visit them more then they're own parents...and some that can't due to distance between them...I don't expect anything from my son and his wife anymore...I can't....they are good to me when here, and she is very nice to me, and we have a good time, but anything more then what they can give me, I won't expect, b/c I never want them to feel like they have to come, or be with me...I know what that is like, and the more someone makes you feel like you have to be there, the less you will be there....

OUr son's are still the wonderful people we raised...and they still love us...you don't and can't turn love off....and they don't as much as any of us at one time would like to believe, however, there are some son's here who need to really stand up to they're wives and give they're parents quality time...and I blame them more then the DIL's, for allowing themselves to be manipulated or bullied into staying away, and whats worse, keeping the grand children away...


Again, none of us did anything wrong, we were just being ourselves, being a mom, maybe even some of us love our kids way to much, or think of our kids as our only purpose in life...especially if we don't work or never did...I believe working full time purposely estranges you from that perception...however, we didn't do anything wrong, what we did, was taken in the wrong way, by our DIL's...because she is a totally different culture then we are...she is her own person, with her very own habits and ways of doing things, she may have never been close to her parents, or very close to her parents...in my case, I wanted inlaws...and a large extended family...and pictured us all getting together...

What I did to eliviate the Christmas thing at two homes was, I hosted Christmas dinner myself and had both parents there...

boy for years, we ran around trying to spend time with each parent and it was horrible...horrible, and more tiring, plus we didn't get to have our own christmas, getting up in the pajamas, opening gifts as a family...and lounging around the house...it was the  most hectic horrible day of my life, and I used to go somewhere and really cry about it...I really hated Christmas, b/c I felt like I had to...and it wasn't fair...I wanted my own Chrismas in my home with my child...

I was on both ends of this, and perhaps that is maybe why it's easier for me to see it...however, it took me 12 long years to wake up....way to long...way to long...

I wanted to add, that I rarely call my son and DIL, even when I'm home sick or not feeling well...I email them and let them take the lead...they have they're own lives...and are very busy....and I respect that...I know when they can they will write or call...and I would never ever again, call them and ask them if I could come down there to visit...I will wait for an invitation...with no expectations what so ever...it isn't that they wouldn't want me there, but they need quality time with they're own family...meaning, them and my GD...

Yes, it's true, my GD hardly knows me, and that is hard...however, I cannot base my whole life and happiness on that....when I hear my friends talk about having they're grand kids for sleep overs, yes, it hurts, and it also hurts that she knows my son's father's family more then me, but that is the choice I made when I cut them off....worse thing I could have ever done, however, at the time, I really believed I was doing what was best for all of us, not just me...it was a horrible time...anger was flaring and there was no telling me that I was wrong at the time...so, I'm certain, they needed that break as well...none of us liked it...but it was well needed...and it was for approximately 3 years...but we all grew in that time...there were losses...great ones...but now I'm able to accept that my life with them will never be the same but hold onto the fact that maybe in time, it will even be better, and if not, that's life...but I won't harbor any regrets now, or make them feel like they have to....that would start trouble all over again...and I never want to go back there, it was a very dark and despairing place. 

Quote from: Anna on October 01, 2010, 10:40:44 AM
Hey Creme.  You know how much I appreciate your input, but I have to agree with Guest1. I am not, & never have been a clingy Mom.  I knew that my sons would one day marry, & I would not be their first priority.  I accepted that fact long before they married.  What I didn't expect was to be pushed totally out of my sons lives.  Now maybe that was not the intent, but that sure is what it felt like.   
Sometimes Creme, it feels to me that you are using my situation with my dils as an example of what not to do in a relationship.  Believe me, I know I made a lot of mistakes, & I am trying to move forward. Trying not to repeat these mistakes.  I know you are just trying to share your wisdom, because you are very wise, but sometimes it does sound a little harsh.
I'm sorry Creme, I just feel that way sometimes.  It's hard cause your post have taught me a lot, I've learned from reading them, & I know you have a huge heart.   (((((hugs)))))     Anna.

Hi Anna, I'm not using anyone's experience as an example of what not to do, and I'm real sorry if I made you feel that way...what I am doing, is taking experiences that you've all written about and say, that I don't feel that way, here's how I see it...I know I probably should go into the thread you've all posted and posted my feelings there, but I honestly don't remember who said what, and that's the truth...I'm not saying your wrong, what I'm suggesting is, that perhaps this is what your DIL's view and insulting or hurtful...I don't know, I'm not living in your worlds...I can post a thought, and let you all take it from there, and you all know much better how you handle things then I do...
actually, you have more answers then I do...I'm trying to help you understand, that while you all are wonderful ladies...maybe, your DIL's are viewing your actions as intrusive or smothering...not that you are, but maybe that  is how she views it...b/c she was raised differently and has her own ideas about how she wants to live her life....with her husband....

Does that help at all or make sense...gosh I really really wish I could write like Luise...

Creme  ... I for the life of me can not think of myself or any mother as "the other woman" and accept this as being the norm.  Throughout the life of your child the relationship changes it's not only as he is getting married.  I feel that my son was ready to make that decision, he had broken the bonds of Mommy long ago.  We allowed and encouraged this growth process to take place at the age appropriate times.  His collective memories do not have Mom and Dad in the background constantly.  Maybe some mothers cross that invisible line, but I feel that most are trying hard to teach their children about independence. 

When I speak of balance it begins with having found balance in my own life.  I did not put on hold my life while I catered to my children but instead would strive for blend to meet everyones needs.  We lived continuously working towards our dreams and goals because our thoughts were how could we raise balanced children if they are not constantly working towards their goals while seeing that  we value our dreams as well.  Few people have 'dreams' that exclude others from sharing their experiences.

Unfortunately, like many we have both suffered from loosing a child.  I myself had 3 miscarriage, one later in the pregnancy, and ectopic pregnancy and even had an abortion by choice when younger.. but I can't fanthom placing my living son in the same category when speaking about loving him.  I lost those pregnancies, my son is alive and kicking and by gosh  I have not now or  ever will loose him to marriage. 

If you came to the conclusions you have in order to find a way to have a healthy relationship with your son, then I applaud you for doing what was necessary in order to survive.  I for one can not look at my relationships with my kids anywhere near the same as you, nor would I ever encourage other woman to take a defeatist role in hopes of having a relationship with someone who you've had a relationship with for years.  I  think your post are swinging to far on the  pendulum, and I don't feel  that you have to have the 'perfect' world to achieve balance.

It is very hard for me to look at a Mother's situation with her son, grown or not and realize he might think. "Mom's human now. Wow.  I don't like what I see".

I think to myself, "you poor little thing.  You had life as a bed of roses.  We were there for you every day of your life, never witheld anything from you; you never endured one single loss.  You were sent you to the best university and were given a house full of love and devotion.  We denied ourselves a better life because we wanted more for you.  I don't think you have one thing to complain about".

I've just about had a belly full of blaming me and the best Dad in the world...."you owe respect and honor to us.  You do." 

So well said, BT!  Kudos and big baskets of flowers to you.

Kathleen

Quote from: Anna on October 02, 2010, 06:48:14 AM
Hi ladies.  My ods is coming over tomorrow to celebrate his birthday with us.  I doubt his new wife will be with him.
Glitter, my ods is not one to admit that he made a mistake, he would rather stay in the relationship than admit to a mistake.    If ndil is doing this only 4 months into the marriage, ready to run over the least little thing, what does the future hold?  I agree, I think he should run, fast & far, which is sad.  Ods says he will hve nothing if his marriage doesn't work out.  He will have his pride, his self esteem, & his family.  He thinks thereis no one else out there for him, that his life is over if this marriage doesn't work out.  It sounds like he only married so he wouldn't be alone, not because he loved her.  All of his friends are with someone, & he felt he should be too.  Both ods & ndil rushed into this, they don't really know each other. 

Well...if he'd rather suffer than admit a mistake, then don't feel sorry for him.  Bed.  Made.  Lie.

I would say that the future doesn't look bright, Anna.  Second marriages have an even higher divorce rate than first marriages.  HIs new wife has one failed marriage and parents who successfully sued her for gp rights (which grandparents hardly ever get so that is an amazingly huge red flag about your new dil), not of that would make me feel warm fuzzy inside.

I'm sure people will think I'm cold, but as they grow...I will clearly send a message to my boys that they should pick partners w/out children and previous marriages and w/out a couple of tons of baggage.  No sense in tying yourself to a drama llama situation.  If they choose to do so anyway...I'll keep my mouth shut and hope for the best.

BT, good post. DH & I have actually been put down by DIL for being losers because we don't have a big showy display of bling. We chose to pay for DS's education and provide other experiences for our kids rather than spend for show. A little recognition for our hard work and sacrifice would be nice! At least DS stands up for us in that regard (most of the time.)

QuoteLaurieS
Creme  ... I for the life of me can not think of myself or any mother as "the other woman" and accept this as being the norm.  Throughout the life of your child the relationship changes it's not only as he is getting married.  I feel that my son was ready to make that decision, he had broken the bonds of Mommy long ago.  We allowed and encouraged this growth process to take place at the age appropriate times.  His collective memories do not have Mom and Dad in the background constantly.  Maybe some mothers cross that invisible line, but I feel that most are trying hard to teach their children about independence. 

I appreciate that and  how you feel and perhaps I didn't explain it properly...what my counselors said, "you have two women fighting over one man, a mother and DIL...therefore, it is similar to a love triangle"...minus the physical intimacy...but we have mental intimacy with our children, and do does DIL...

I cannot speak for you or anyone else here, however, that is what also helped me to snap out of it so to speak...

QuoteWhen I speak of balance it begins with having found balance in my own life.  I did not put on hold my life while I catered to my children but instead would strive for blend to meet everyones needs.

I did, and a lot of mothers due, as the nurturers of the family we give up certain things...I myself, didn't have time for myself, after working full time, all the running around, house work, cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping and weekend getaways in the summer...we all strive to meet the needs of others, especially those in our families...but there were dreams of travel and art, and so many other things, that we either couldn't afford to do, or were just to busy, and on weekends, any down time I got was me time to cook or bake or just rest a little...I also did gardening and put up 300 jars a year. Plus we had horses.

QuoteWe lived continuously working towards our dreams and goals because our thoughts were how could we raise balanced children if they are not constantly working towards their goals while seeing that  we value our dreams as well.  Few people have 'dreams' that exclude others from sharing their experiences.

your right, when my child was young, my dreams included him, and my husband, however, when he grew older, he wanted to be in so many activities, and saving for college, I had to put some dreams on hold...

QuoteUnfortunately, like many we have both suffered from loosing a child.  I myself had 3 miscarriage, one later in the pregnancy, and ectopic pregnancy and even had an abortion by choice when younger.. but I can't fanthom placing my living son in the same category when speaking about loving him.

I don't think I ever suggested that I loved those babies as much as I love him, what I was trying to say, and forgive me again, for not making myself clear...is, that, because I lost those babies, he was very near and dear to me...and to me, loosing those children, was devestating, b/c I wanted a huge family...many here equate the loss of they're sons to a death...and I believe them...b/c I was there and felt the same thing, and many times expressed it, saying, "this is like a death"...so is divorce...

QuoteI lost those pregnancies, my son is alive and kicking and by gosh  I have not now or  ever will loose him to marriage.

Maybe loosing him is a bad choice of words, I dunno, the point I'm trying to make is, that once they are married, our lives change, they are not the same any more, while for those mothers who do get along with they're kids...they say, they've moved on.  I have one neighbor who has 3 sons...one of them calls her or stops by every week, one of them oh, maybe she talks to him, once every other week or once and month, and the other she rarely hears from...however, they do all rally around each other when there is a problem going on, and she has a DIL that occassionally she has problems with, nothing like any of us, however, she told me, it is what it is...I backed off and she's fine...and every once in a while she gets really moody, I don't take it personal...that is just the way she is, period". 

If you came to the conclusions you have in order to find a way to have a healthy relationship with your son, then I applaud you for doing what was necessary in order to survive.  I for one can not look at my relationships with my kids anywhere near the same as you, nor would I ever encourage other woman to take a defeatist role in hopes of having a relationship with someone who you've had a relationship with for years. 


It isn't a defeatist role, not in the least...its an independent role on my part and his part, and the way I raised him...I realize, he has a wife, he's very very busy with they're lives...he lives far away, and if he's happy, that's all I could ever wish for him...I'm living my life differently now, which is my balance...now I have time to travel, cruise, go out to dinner with my friends...and I have the money to do so...I love my life...but there are times, when I remember my son, as a child, and do miss that...but it is not or never will be a defeatest role...and I would never encourage any woman to do so either...

QuoteI  think your post are swinging to far on the  pendulum, and I don't feel  that you have to have the 'perfect' world to achieve balance.

my world works for me...which may not work for anyone else here, however, I do have a network of friends who live the same kind of life as I do...is my world perfect, for me it is...and personally, you view my posts as the other end of the spectrum b/c you don't don't agree, which is fine..honestly, but I'm very happy in my world and free of the drama....which is a God sent.

I've shared with you words which are from other counselors, and online quotes from counselors, it's up to you to pick and choose what you prefer...and I wouldn't dare say anyone here is wrong for not believing that way...it's what works for different people, and that is the main purpose of my posts...to explain that there is no right or wrong answer or person, it all has to do with personal culture and beliefs...

Quotekathleen
Hello all suffering MIL's.
I've noticed a "thread" in so many of your posts, and mine.  And that is, "What Did I do Wrong?" 

Hi Kathleen, I was wondering?  Do you know what it means when someone says to you..."There is no (right or wrong) answer? 

Just b/c you feel I'm wrong, doesn't mean your right, or if I feel your wrong doesn't mean I'm right, and it doesn't mean that either of us are bad people....what it means is, that I wasn't raised in your family your culture....

1.  a culture is An integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for symbolic thought and social learning

2.  The set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group or family....

meaning, there is not one family who is like another, and while you were raised with family values, beliefs and personal institutions, doesn't mean your wrong, and your DIL is right....or visa versa, what it is, is two cultures clashing....

QuoteIn other words, how did you personally cause this situation with your son and daughter-in-law? 

Questions you should definately be asking both your DIL/son...with the ability to assume responsiblity if they say something like, "well, mom, you come over a little to much, or you call a little to much, or you just took way to much for granted concerning our child".  And I'm not saying any of this is you Kathleen or anyone else here, what I'm saying is, you've got to be ready and willing to listen and then ask....

QuoteWhat could I have done differently? 

The very first talk I had with my son, about this situation, after 12 long years was my first question..."What can I do to make this better, to change this?"  He was very surprised and didn't know how to answer, but he knew I was very sincere and wanted to know the truth of my wrong doings....which I was not only ready to listen and not get defensive, but also, I so wanted to change it....I was sick of the pain, heartache and loss....and would now do what was necessary to change not only my attitude, but the situation.  And it doesn't happen all at once, as long as it took for me to get to the point, it's going to take just as long for change and trust to rebuild....just b/c we say we're sorry, doesn't convince them that I was ready to back off and allow them they're lives without interference. 

I don't know why it took me so long to get it, b/c I felt the very same way as a DIL, simply smothered beyond patience and tollerence.

But you have to be ready to hear "you were wrong when you did this or that, and no matter how small of an issue you think it is....it's a big one to them or her".  You cannot say, "wull I did this b/c, or acted like this B/c, because when you do that, your saying, I didn't do anything wrong....and I was right for acting like that...which translates to them that, "I won't change" and your not really ready to see things from they're point of view, right or wrong, there is no right or wrong answer, it's about culture and the way you were raised, compared to the way she was raised....which conflicts, and distances them from you....if your looking for excuses to call them, and you keep calling them, but they don't respond, it's b/c they feel your calling to much, and they don't want you to....period....and Kathleen, or anyone else here, I'm using these examples as examples and not anyone here....but just trying to explain, when you get to this point, that your asking these questions....and you truly want change, your going to have to be ready to assume some ownership in this, so that your son and DIL do feel comfortable around you again and know that you mean business that you will respect they're boundaries, even if you don't like it....if you do, your going to get along better with them, if you don't and you keep on, they will continue to distance you....
and this may not apply to anyone here....just my thoughts...

Creme

I'd be glad to hear anything from my son & DIL.  I'd be glad for any opportunity to go to their home.  I'd be pleased with any possible opportunity to talk this out.  This is a total cutoff from their side.  And I have trouble with the "blame the victim" mentality.  My husband and I did not create this situation.

This post started out with my experience with my son & DIL that no matter what I do, it will be incorrect from their view, no matter if I turned around the behavior and acted 180 degrees differently the next time, at which point we would be back to square one with "that's wrong too."   If my son and DIL's "shared set of values" mean they can take large amounts of money, gifts, time, affection, and love, and return nothing but silent contempt, then you are absolutely correct that this is not a shared set of values.

Thank you, Laurie, for words of wisdom from Shakespeare.  Like you, I have a bottom line of what I will accept and what I won't.  I passed that bottom line quite a while ago.

Kathleen

Kathleen :)
I can't describe how much you helped me with your divine post but I'm sure you know the feeling of "YES, that's the truth." I've come to the same conclusion. My only answer is, it's life. Most of it makes sense to me and I see the discourse taking place but there are still those unanswered questions. Now if I can just overcome my own dependency on having children lol. I suppose I have to keep on keeping on. I pray and that's all the solace I get.  I have so much to be thankful for but staying focused on the good things isn't always that easy. I have a wonderful husband and my boys treat me with love and respect. My boys are kind to me and aren't dependent on me emotionally. My daughter, whom I thought would be closest to me, hates me. She is only 19 years old but she can still say things that cut to my core. If I could go back and do things differently, I would have disciplined her more with no exceptions. Had I known that not making her clean her room or do the dishes would have turned her into someone who is selfish and hates me then I certainly would have made her wash those dishes lol. I know it goes deeper than that. We all do. But in the end, mothers are humans; we are daughters; we are people too. I don't think children see us as people. But we are and I plan on substituting mine and my daughter's relationship with this website. I've decided that every time she hurts me; I will come here. Every time I miss her; I will come here. Every time I question my very existence and God; I will come here:) I don't mean for it to substitute God, but in the past I've just "hoed" this on my own behind closed doors with my tears and my God. But I don't think God is the one blaming me or hurting me and I believe that he will connect us with others to help with our pain. Many times when my daughter is at her meanest, I think of God and if he could talk and I could hear him in an audible voice I think he would say, "Leslie, I've got this and I know what I'm doing, now just let me take the wheel." (If all goes well, I won't turn into that selfish child that I despise so much:)
Thank you
Leslie

L,

Thank you for your beautifully written post.  I am hastening to write to you immediately to say your situation of feeling you did not discipline your daughter enough is not the reason, in my strong opinion, for her treatment of you.  Please do not buy into this; (you are obviously a very caring, loving parent.)  Because my son was disciplined, he was required to do chores, I was determined that he would have a work ethic when he grew up.  And now I hear through the grapevine that he feels I was too harsh.  And likely you would be hearing that now, too, if you had been more demanding.

By the time my third one was born, I was tired!  I couldn't face more rounds of arguing over chores, etc.  So basically I did the cleaning and the cooking and this left him free to practice his music, which he did, and now he makes his living at it.  And guess what, he is our most devoted child.  He's a bit inept sometimes in cooking for himself now that he's grown, but he's a good person and a loving son.  So the fact that you were easy on your daughter is not the cause of the situation, I don't think. 

I, too, had to accept a lot of very hateful words from my problem son, when he was still in my life as a teenager and didn't get his way.  You'd have to be a saint not to react to it and I never figured out how not to.  Parenting books aren't much help when you are standing nose to nose with a raging teen flinging hard words like swords around the room.  Ah, the battles of parenthood; I was so romantic about it when I was young!

She is only nineteen.  Take heart: she is still very young and may well grow out of this stage of rebellion; she may be more testing her wings than actively hating you.  I've learned they need to rebel.  Some do it more destructively and openly than others.  My third son was well out of basic college before he decided to try and ignore every piece of advice we ever gave him.  Fortunately, his rebellion wasn't the Sherman burning Georgia kind of warfare.  You may be quite surprised ten years from now that your girl has matured into a very loving, devoted and kind daughter.  She is trying to find her way.  Please don't give up on her yet in the sense of thinking this is her basic personality.  Remember that many of the adult children discussed on this list are really well into adulthood and there is less hope.

Children often do not see us as humans, as you said in your very correct point.  But my oldest son says you do not grow up until you see and acknowledge your parents as humans.  I suspect a boatload of immaturity still left in my middle son, who has cut us off, even though he is a father himself now.  Good luck in getting through this "stage," soft word for what you are going through, and let's hope she soon recognizes what a wonderful mother she has.

Kathleen

This is very dear to me. "We took them to Disney World twice, summers they went back alone with me to my home of origin and spent time in old fishing cabins on a lakeshore, and later he had a trip to Europe and went back for a whole summer to study there.  Today, not directly but through the grapevine, he tells us he is rejecting us partly because we didn't have "normal" family vacations where we all went for two weeks in the winter to a South Seas island..."

When I was growing up my parents never took us 4 kids to an amusement park.  We went fishing, camping, to Yosemite, Grand Canyon, drives halfway across the country to visit relatives, and trips to the ocean.  I don't think I missed anything at all and I treasure these memories with my parents.  I went to an amusement park when I was an older teen and I went to Disney Land for the first time when I was mid-40s.

You can only give your children what you feel is the best for them and maybe like me, the best is what you had growing up.  If they grow up and are ungrateful then, that is their cross to bear, not yours.  I truly believe that as our children get older they will come to realize the love that we showed them in this way.

The best times I had were those spent with my parents.....and siblings doing things together as a family.  I miss those times.....they were such a joy.  I dont remember either being taken to amusement parts (probably they did not exist lol), but I do remember spending two months summer vacations in our house near the beach, and so many other things. 

Our parents gave as as much as they could.....with all the love they had.  We paid it forward to our children...and they will to their children.  I could never complain to my parents for not giving me vacations or things that I did not have .    I can only thank them for the good times we had together and all the love they had for me.

Hugs