My future daughter in law and I got along pretty well .I welcomed her to the family and was excited when my first grandchild was expected .I went a bit mad buying baby clothes,equipment furniture.Also knitted until my hands were sore .then my beautiful grandchild arrived .I felt the barriers go up .I was aware or what not to say .Not allowed to feed or change the baby .not allowed to take the baby out .When I called ,they were just going out or not there at all.They stopped visiting me .I let all this slide being you can imagine just a bit hurt .Until I made a comment not meant for her ,but she took it personally and called me a liar when I said it wasnt for her anyway .It was unoffensive but was twisted to make it so .Emails followed and my other siblings got involved to protect me .We are now at stalemate
with neither party speaking ,my son doesnt want to take sides .My friends are horrified how this has snowballed out of control ....I am taking time out to cool off and lick my wounds .She reckons she is due an apology ...for what ?Is this normal ??
So sorry you're going through this. Try to take care of yourself, step back from their drama, and perhaps one day they'll come around. Read the older posts regarding grandchildren and partake of the wisdom our GPs can give. Best wishes.
Words misunderstood can do so much damage. And when explanation is rejected, they can stand alone as a barrier between two people. When others take sides, those early-on words can become a war cry.
What did you say. when and how? Around whom?
I am wondering how deep your hurt went when you DIL started shutting you out and if whatever you said could have been taken two ways. Also, if you went overboard, she may have felt overwhelmed by that and might have been looking (consciously or unconsciously) for a way out.
I agree that you had better back off until everyone calms down. Let your son know, if you can, that you meant no harm and that you can understand how your DIL might have felt. She was the one having the baby. It was her big event, not yours. It sounds like she may have been trying to take back her authority. We have seen many such incidents here with new mothers. Sometimes they are even trying to cover up not really knowing what they're doing.
There are a lot of ways of looking at this. I hope you find something useful. And yes, read the posts under our Grandchildren heading. You are not alone.
Sorry to hear about your situation. It is so easy to make mistakes in this context and when all's been said and done it is nobody's fault really, just this special relationship between MIL and DIL. I have been there and in the beginning I could not understand what was happening, that two totally reasonable nice human beings could get into a situation where everything that is being said needs to be checked - like treading on egg shells all the time.
I'm taking three weeks out at the moment and can reflect but I'm not sure what will happen when I get back. I have promised myself though, that if the situation continues, I will really back off for a while and hope that things will get better with time and absence.
Fact is, they will always be our families and families on the whole have a great power for healing.
I believe that my situation arose because DIL (who is really nice and kind) was overwhelmed with having a new baby and I didn't manage to bring to her the understanding that she craved. I always thought she should cope better than she did and now on reflection I know that was wrong of me. I should have been more patient. However I did have a problem which is different from yours in that the baby is the second child and the first child aged 2 1/2 rejected me and I could not be of any help because he only wanted to be with his mum. For me it meant spending a lot of time on the margin, just standing round feeling really helpless or doing housework which I didn't do well because DIL has different standards.
However, I will hang in there and believe in the strenght of the loving relationship we had with son and DIL when things were not so fraught. I'm sure we will make up eventually. Hopefully one day we will be able to have a good laugh at how we behaved, mind you as things are now, that won't be for a while. But when it happens I will be the happiest person alive!
The way you describe your situation, it appears to be similar in strength of loving beackground in the past.
Thinking of you - you are not alone! :)
That was really a sweet posting Chelmsford.. what a great attitude you have, how can things not work out for you.
You are all so kind ,and it really helps for others to talk about their experiences .I can understand how my DIL might have felt I was taking over .This wasn't my intention at all .I just wanted to help and let her know I was there for her .I suppose I was really hurt that I wasn't allowed to take a bigger part in helping with the newborn .My remark was aimed at my other siblings at letting me know what was going on in their lives ,which they took in all the humour it was meant .However as I hadn't seen my grandchild for 5 weeks she took it personally .she wouldn't accept my explanation .I have apologised to her but she is unwilling to accept the remark wasnt for her .I have asked to see my grandchild on her 1st birthday next month so will wait and see what happens .I feel this is her way of cutting me out completely ,I hope my son can persuade her I am not a nasty person .
I hope so too, LL... Why are people so touchy these days.. shame it sometimes takes a catastrophic event in our lives to make us understand how much time we waste on such little silly things. You apologized, not sure what more you can do, but this is your son's child too, he should have some say in when you get to see his child as well.
thank you Laurie ,great to be able to talk about this ,as my husband is so sick of me going on !
My DIL ''to be''.also informed me I shouldn't expect the same relationship as she has with her mother ,and it's not a competition who sees the baby the most ! Well I have seen the baby for 2 hours in 10 weeks ! Hardly excessive .My son isn't allowed out with his child alone ,without her ,so he is unable to come and visit .I was told as she had carried the baby for 9 months it's up to her who does what ! So my remark is just the tip of the iceberg .The wedding is this year and I really don't want to think about it as I am not really involved ,I found out the date on Facebook .!That was before this upset .I would really like someone to explain the psychology of all this as it has me beat .!Thanks for listening ...:)
Unfortunately, yours is not an isolated problem. Many of us have gone through the same thing, just with different people. Like you, my dh isn't up to discussing the issue and analyzing it for hours on end like I'm capable of doing.
When these young ladies/girls/whatever we need to call them not to offend other dil's on the board, decide that they want to built a wall around themselves, it doesn't always appear to be done for self preservation. Instead I see them doing so in order to control others and all it takes is one little slip, anything that they can grab and hold onto to try and prove they are right, and BAM, you are in the position that you find yourself in today.
Reasoning may be beyond your DIL's capabilities as she doesn't sound to terribly reasonable by stating the whole ridiculous theory of nine months pregnant thing. She seems to have forgotten that without someones sperm her nine months was not forthcoming. Between that, the wedding/facebook bs etc.. I think you may be dealing with a young lady who has no intention of allowing your son to have a family. If I had a fairy wand, I'd zap these people into the future and let their own child behave in this same manner and see firsthand what hard feelings they have caused.
There are some here who have dealt with this exact same thing and come out happily on the other end.. Look for Nana, I think she would have a lot of great advice. Meanwhile you will most likely get advice such as take the step back.. give them space.. put on a happy face, and I will agree with all those pieces of advice. Talk to your son, explain one more time that you are trying to understand (not that you have a clue) and tell him that you are there for him when he needs you. Then take a backseat.
I know all to well how it feels to be a guest in your own child's life, while the dil's family is center stage. The only thing I could do to enable myself to get up in the mornings and not want to cry was to set some boundaries and live by them. It doesn't necessary change what is taking place, but it sure keeps my sanity.... Wishing you luck.. I know how much this hurts.
My sentiments exactly, Laurie!
Fortunately, we are lucky to have DILs/MILs here at WWU who are kind, reasonable, and willing to see more sides than just theirs. They give us hope that things can be resolved.
Thanks again Laurie ,I guess you have already been there ! Why do DIL 's behave like that? ,after reading many letters on this site I realise how many young girls act in this way .It could be so different ,if I had acted like a witch I could understand .I see that many of you recommend I speak with my son ,in fact that was one of her bugbears .It's nothing to do with him ,I was told .Speak to me directly ! I was already trained not to upset her that I spoke to him instead .We are supposed to read minds too .! I will follow your advice .In fact I spoke to him and said exactly that.I will find it hard to be friends with someone that has no empathy for me or respect .How long do we wait ? Forever is a long time .....:(
Oh my, she's issuing orders is she? A mother isn't allowed to talk to her own son?
A lot of us are in a position of "darned if we do, darned if we don't." The only thing we can do is take care of ourselves and hope that someday our DSs figure it out. Mine finally did - he stood up to his ILs and his wife and told them he would have a relationship with his FOO (family of origin) like it or not. They still get most of his time and we get dribs and drabs, but at least we get something and have been validated by DS. I'm no longer afraid to text or call, but I totally respect their time and try not to do so unless absolutely necessary.
I had not ever hovered or said anything to cause the "takeover" of DS by DIL or her FOO, it just started happening without warning after the wedding. My heart was broken and I was devastated. My DH was overwhelmed, sad, and sick of my tears; I know how you feel, LL.
The wonderful women on this site helped pull me through. I was on my way to feeling centered again, with or without DS & DIL, when DS stepped in and set his wife and her FOO straight. I'm still working on healing since things will never be the same...but I'm hopeful we're progressing. My DIL seems to have done a 180 degree turn. I know it can't have been easy for her, which makes her newfound tolerance of us all the more special.
IMHO, backing off from our children's drama and moving on with our lives does wonders for us and for them. It gives them a little space to reconsider, and in many cases encourages them to come around. At the very least we will have created interesting, fulfilling lives for ourselves. That sure beats wallowing in a pit of misery. You can still miss them, but you've got a life to live, missy! Don't let DIL's control issues define you!
Hi Lancaster Lady,
I don't think you need to speak to her directly to say that you're trying to understand and that you're there for him if he needs you. You're just telling him the truth. That really has nothing to do with her at all, I don't think (maybe the part about understanding does, but that's pretty minor anyway). I think you can and are entitled to tell your son that.
You apologized (and it sounds like personally to her, so you did EXACTLY what she asked), so I don't think you can do anymore than that, especially when the statement wasn't even about her anyhow Sometimes we just need to realize that people talk just to talk and not everything is loaded with hidden meaning; I think that is a huge insecurity thing...even if the statement is meant to be read in between the lines...ignoring it shows enormous restraint, maturity and self confidence, and I think would lessen the use of statements like that in the first place! By the way, I don't think you intended the statement to mean anything other than what you said, I'm just saying her reaction to it was poor regardless.
If another issue comes up, absolutely, address it with her first, since she asked you to, but for now, no way. That issue is over and done with. Speak to her directly about issues that involve her, absolutely. There really isn't any telling how she'll react until you try it (Good luck!). The other thing is, I think you should ask the same of her: if she has an issue with YOU, she needs to address it with YOU, not make DS the middleman. It works both ways!
As for the Facebook posting about the wedding date, I think that is how it goes now. Everyone has to know at the same time now; and we share our news with the world. I think social online media is changing how we do things. (I did this with the sex of my baby; I was just too excited to wait until I drove to someone's house to share the news that I was even pregnant, I meant no harm by it, but my family wasn't on Facebook THEN, so I'm not sure how they'd react if I did that now). I wouldn't worry about that, as long as you are told about it (or next time, leave a comment on her Facebook about it too, like a "friend" would do, something like, "How Exciting! Can't wait!"...showing her she's not getting a negative reaction out of you, maybe?).
Good luck, new baby, new mother, new wife and new soon-to-be DIL/MIL make for many, many role adjustments for everyone. It's hard enough as it is!
Thanks holliberri....we have to start talking first ,but I appreciate your input .
what I hate is the fact we MIL 's have to roll over and submit !
The DIL has the power of my son and grandchild hovering over me ,and it seems to me she relishes that fact .If she doesn't agree for me to see my grandchild then she has won .My son is a gentle giant and is bewitched .I don't want to come between him and his partner ,all I wanted was to be part of my grandchild's life . As the months went on this became less and less until I snapped I suppose .I objected to them spending Xmas and New Year with her family .Big mistake ! I was supposed to accept the crumbs that were given . So I am supposed to sit and wait until the all power deems to throw me some more crumbs ....I might just starve waiting .!
Thankyou ladies for letting me rant .It alternates with the tears ...I hate being weak !
I just wish we could divide Holliberri up and give a little piece of her to all the MIL's here.
Holliberri.. I know that things are not perfect with your own MIL, but I do appreciate how much of yourself you're putting into trying to understand and make things work. I love how you express yourself while leaving out your emotional side.. did you say that you're in law school?
Over dinner our conversation was about parental weight, 9 mths vs sperm... general consensus was that a woman who would use her pregnancy as leverage would probably be the same one telling a judge one day that the sperm donor should pay a higher percentage of his salary for the welfare of the child, if the couple were to separate. Came down in our conversation that unrealistic people were often unrealistic while straddling both sides of the fence.
Quote from: lancaster lady on January 15, 2011, 06:19:26 PM
Thanks holliberri....we have to start talking first ,but I appreciate your input .
what I hate is the fact we MIL 's have to roll over and submit !
The DIL has the power of my son and grandchild hovering over me ,and it seems to me she relishes that fact .If she doesn't agree for me to see my grandchild then she has won .My son is a gentle giant and is bewitched .I don't want to come between him and his partner ,all I wanted was to be part of my grandchild's life . As the months went on this became less and less until I snapped I suppose .I objected to them spending Xmas and New Year with her family .Big mistake ! I was supposed to accept the crumbs that were given . So I am supposed to sit and wait until the all power deems to throw me some more crumbs ....I might just starve waiting .!
Thankyou ladies for letting me rant .It alternates with the tears ...I hate being weak !
You aren't weak.. you're hurt.
Quote from: lancaster lady on January 15, 2011, 06:19:26 PM
Thanks holliberri....we have to start talking first ,but I appreciate your input .
what I hate is the fact we MIL 's have to roll over and submit !
The DIL has the power of my son and grandchild hovering over me ,and it seems to me she relishes that fact .If she doesn't agree for me to see my grandchild then she has won .My son is a gentle giant and is bewitched .I don't want to come between him and his partner ,all I wanted was to be part of my grandchild's life . As the months went on this became less and less until I snapped I suppose .I objected to them spending Xmas and New Year with her family .Big mistake ! I was supposed to accept the crumbs that were given . So I am supposed to sit and wait until the all power deems to throw me some more crumbs ....I might just starve waiting .!
Thankyou ladies for letting me rant .It alternates with the tears ...I hate being weak !
I think you'll get to talking to her again, and believe it or not, there probably will be another issue that will need discussing (sigh...). I think this is a newborn baby, correct? If so, it's still very very early, and I don't think the dust has even remotely settled yet. Step back, not to give them space, but to give yourself space. You are NOT weak, and you're entitled to your tears. I relate my situation to yours for one and one reason only: the time factor. Look at what this year has brought you: new baby AND a wedding. For me, the baby was a LOOONG time in coming, but I think my MIL and I weren't given enough time to work out our issues before DH and I were married. I only met her once, and we dated while DH was living very far from her. Then, we were getting married the next time I met her. HUGE adjustment, and we all were thrown into new roles at once. Lots of toes were/are being stepped on. MIL never had any time to adjust to her DS having a girlfriend, let alone a wife, and then she had to get used to this stranger being a wife. Not only to you have to get used to ALL of that, but then you have to get used to being a new grandmother as well. Unbelievable amount of change if you ask me. Even if it was a perfect transition, I think a few tears still need to be shed.
As for the holidays, it is not fair, but I think showing your objections about the holidays might be counterproductive. While it does certainly seem to be a power struggle (given the statement about carrying a baby for 9 mths and being closer with DIL's family), don't push back. Your feelings are totally valid, and I can understand the pain you're going through, but showing her that your upset about the holidays might make her dig her heels in further. It was one year, you don't know what is to come next year...have some hope!
Also, my DH is a gentle giant too, but when he thinks it is warranted, he fights for his family. You'd be surprised. Have faith.
QuoteHolliberri.. I know that things are not perfect with your own MIL, but I do appreciate how much of yourself you're putting into trying to understand and make things work. I love how you express yourself while leaving out your emotional side.. did you say that you're in law school?
Over dinner our conversation was about parental weight, 9 mths vs sperm... general consensus was that a woman who would use her pregnancy as leverage would probably be the same one telling a judge one day that the sperm donor should pay a higher percentage of his salary for the welfare of the child, if the couple were to separate. Came down in our conversation that unrealistic people were often unrealistic while straddling both sides of the fence.
Haha, edit buttons work wonders, I tell you! I was in law school, but not anymore. It just wasn't for me, I've since been working and going to grad school for business.
The 9 month thing irritates me to no end. My DH suffered from low fertility and we went through one failed in-vitro attempt. Then I had 2 miscarriages (no meds), before I had DD. After undergoing every test imaginable, I finally found a doctor who wasn't surprised at all that I had 2 miscarriages
b/c my husband had low fertility. He said they're only now just linking sperm to pregnancy loss, and the evidence seems to suggest that it is a HUGE factor in maintaining a pregnancy.
So, no, my husband's work certainly was not *done* after I became pregnant. He took vitamins and lost weight for us to maintain our 3rd pregnancy. Unfortunately, it took them years to figure this out b/c it was assumed that it was ALL the woman's responsibility after conception. So, those sperm account for a lot more than we previously thought...just about half of a baby, who knew???! ;) It is thanks go my DH's changes that DD is here at all I think. Men deserve a lot more credit than they've previously gotten. Maybe with some more research we can kick the idea that a woman does it all by herself once and for all.
What you are saying hollibery speaks to me. I'm so glad I joined this website because it puts me in a community of women with similar issues. To have a voice from the DIL's perspective is really priceless. I think my DIL would go along with what you are saying. I now think that I should have been the 'wise one' because after all I am the one with life experience behind me - not much good this time, I'm afraid. But the fact that it is not too late is very comforting indeed and I try not to beat myself up over it, as there is still time to change. :)
I think it is realistic to expect further conflict because of the tremendous changes that come with adopting new roles etc. It really takes it out of everybody emotionally and unlike a lot of other relationships, 'there is nowhere to hide'. Wow! I hope I can deal with them better now than of late.
But flip the coin to positive: What a tremedous enrichment of life experience, especially when there is a HAPPY ENDING to be hoped for and new lives will bring new joys.
You sound like an ideal DIL holliberri .......my problems are totally different to yours .
Mr son and his girlfriend have been together for four years and during that time we all got on pretty well . When their relationship became serious she decided to alienate his flatmate who had been his friend for years .He duly moved out ! My son and him remained friends until his friend took a partner .My future DIL then decided to alienate her .Which leaves my son in a difficult place ,this was to be his best man !
I feel anyone who is too close to my son becomes a target .Of course with my slip of the tongue that was her excuse to target me .Then when the baby arrived the torture began a little twist here and there.This is one clever little lady slowly but surely we are being alienated .I hope me lovely son is strong enough to fight for his family ,it's the waiting which is torture .!
My thanks to Laurie for her kindness it means a lot ..x
Hi Lancaster Lady and Welcome......I am sorry this is happening to you and believe it or not this is nothing new to us!!! Please understand that no matter what you say or do is not going to work or change anything with her.....You are simply going to have to back off totally and somehow let your son handle things, it may take a while~~but let him intervene (sometimes they do get the courage and speak out to their spouse.) For if you continue keeping in touch she is only going to become angrier with you so dont give her any more ammunition.
I dont understand what is going on with these kids anymore, I would of never thought of doing to my parents what our grown children are doing to us--I beat myself up for years, wondering "what and where did I go wrong?" Until I finially realised, I diden't do anything wrong--it is them...it is NOT us......I realise this is not going to mend your heart that is filled with pain...but right now you must move forward without them, I know easier said than done....but it is the best and only thing you can do for yourself at this point....no more communication unless if your son calls, talk casually--No questions about girlfriend.....talk about the baby etc.....
Sending hugs across the miles.....Faith
Quote from: lancaster lady on January 16, 2011, 03:49:51 AM
You sound like an ideal DIL holliberri .......my problems are totally different to yours .
Mr son and his girlfriend have been together for four years and during that time we all got on pretty well . When their relationship became serious she decided to alienate his flatmate who had been his friend for years .He duly moved out ! My son and him remained friends until his friend took a partner .My future DIL then decided to alienate her .Which leaves my son in a difficult place ,this was to be his best man !
I feel anyone who is too close to my son becomes a target .Of course with my slip of the tongue that was her excuse to target me .Then when the baby arrived the torture began a little twist here and there.This is one clever little lady slowly but surely we are being alienated .I hope me lovely son is strong enough to fight for his family ,it's the waiting which is torture .!
My thanks to Laurie for her kindness it means a lot ..x
Your problems may indeed be totally different than mine; but I'm not sure I've given anyone on here an inkling as to what my problems might be, still getting the courage to post. No matter how long DS has been dating her, this new time period is bringing fast, sudden changes for all. I don't think she is handling it correctly, but she is to a certain extent, exploring a newly acquired role.
She may very well alienate everyone in his life, but have courage, if she's doing that, eventually (maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next year), he'll see that. The problem with alienation is that it becomes painfully obvious once no one is left. People that alienate will always need someone to alienate; if they're really good at it, they run out of people. Then what?
Also, your DS is exploring a new role too: learning to be DH and new father. We do a very good job of teaching our kids that their "loyalty" is to their spouse and their own children. Not a bad thing, but kids need to learn exactly what that loyalty means, and what it doesn't. It takes time, and they need to sort that out for themselves. I really think he'll see what is happening, and be able to stand up for you. The right kind of loyalty takes practice and self-respect.
Can you do me a favor? You said something in your post about a "slip of of the tongue" and you said you "snapped" in an earlier post. If alienation is her true method... can you see that you really did NONE of those things? Alienation would happen one way or another, and I think you're taking on more of the blame in this than you deserve. Adding space to this issue (especially since it sounds like she won't talk to you anyhow), may give you exactly the clarity you need, to own up to true blue mistakes and then not feel bad about it anymore; not only being fair to her but to yourself. It might allow you to recognize that you did all you can do, and you can't just change who you are for her. You can't feel guilty about what you did/said (and you already apologized for something you didn't really say to boot), b/c you're giving the person that is alienating you exactly what they want. She's demonstrating incredible power here with very little communication; she's not entitled to that.
I know you said earlier that MILs just have to submit, and I would say MILs do have a lot new things to get used to, but not this. You don't need to lose your own self-respect in the process, and I think you're in a lot of pain. Don't make it harder on yourself by beating yourself up. What the other ladies are saying to do will equip you with exactly what you need to get through this. I will be thinking of you in the coming days, b/c it isn't easy. Best of luck.
welcome lancaster lady
I am sorry for your pain
when I read what you wrote here couple of red flags come to my mind
as it was in our situation
1-beginning very good friendly -
as she was on her best to know us all and get as much information from us
so she used latter to her benefits
2-alienation from family and friends-
like a poison with her little lies here and there against each other,
one by one we were out of son's life
3-your son=baby father can not be in relationship one on one with his baby
my advise to you
concentrate relationship with your son-
send son e-mail, or call him asking for a picture of his baby
It is nice to hear from a DIL, and to see what her point of view is. I am a MIL that for a dozen years (since the DS and DIL got together and got pregnant as teens) has always kept a low profile and just accepted the fact that DIL's FOO got all holiday time, grankids birthdays, school photos and programs etc. We got the crumbs, but it was better than nothing, and also I figure that once DS got married and had kids he needed to put wife and kids first. Not a problem. When I married my husband (second husband) we tried to keep relationship with both sides of the family. I am a grandmother that would like to get a school photo every year (or photos that are taken of any kind), and I would be very willing to buy some to help if needed. But my DS and DIL have given me MAYBE 4 or 5 pictures total of both grandaughters, and the oldest is 12 years old! I have never gone to a school program of hers, but her family attends all. I have never mentioned that to them just to keep peace. I have been to one birthday party for each of those grandaughters, never invited to the rest...her family attends all. Again, I never say a word. I have always bought Christmas gifts, Easter stuff, Valentines stuff, and birthday stuff (my DIL EXPECTS it, and lets us know every time her family gives them anything). So now DS and DIL refuse to have a thing to do with our side of the family at all, including aunts, uncles, his siblings etc. DS has said to us it is because WE do not do enough for them or give them enough! They quit communicating with us in August. I sent 1 text, saying Merry Christmas, and one to grandaughter last week to say happy birthday. No other communication has been initiated, I leave them alone totally. They did not respond of course, but I did not expect them too either. I feel okay because I at least did that much, and I do not expect anything in return. I have gone on with my life and I do have several other grandchildren I get to have a relationship with. I do not understand why this has happened, but my happiness does not depend on anyone else! I do not owe those adult kids anything. My bet is when DIL gets mad at DS, or vice versa, one of them will call. I will not be drawn in by that because I refuse to be treated rudely by them and then let them back in to do the same thing again when they make up. Since reading so much on this web site I feel I have learned a lot. I know everyone reacts to situations differently, and we all have to do what we feel is best for us. For me the best thing was setting boundaries and moving on. I hope you all have a wonderful new year, and I am thankful for your wise words.
Wow Jane.. your post gave us a lot to think about. I agree we do need to set boundaries and live within them... Like you, I do and at the same time be kind and understanding towards everyone. I'm glad you have other children, their spouses and grandkids to help make your life feel blessed.
I don't know if I can agree 100% with Faith in one area. If I'm speaking with my son, I don't feel that I should totally avoid his wife/gf and children in conversation. I'm not saying to ridicule but to ask how someone is doing etc is not wrong. If I were in conversation exclude their existence, I feel that I may be only seeing my son in his pre-relation state. I feel that part of telling your child that you are there if they need you is meaning that you are there for all of him, which his family is now a part of him and can not be excluded at will. Hmmm does that make sense?
It makes sense to me in theory. Lots of things do. In practice, that's something else again. Each moment is different, each interaction unique. I forget my formulae.
I thank you all ,and can't tell you how much I appreciate your advice .It really helps me to feel other women feel what I am going through .I am amazed how common this really is .All my friends seem to have great relationships with their DIL,I envy them .The wedding is planned for later in the year and no one has mentioned it lately .I am afraid what my answer would be .How can you celebrate the joining of two people when one of them won't speak to you .Thankyou Holliberri your advice made me feel so much better .Yes I was beating myself up thinking what I should have done etc .I feel I am a warm kind loving person who has never fallen out with anyone in my life ! So this has hit me like a ton of bricks .My grandchild is 1 year old next month and have requested to see her .That sentence is madness to my eyes ,to have to request to see your own granddaughter .My own grandmother was like a second mom to me and she let me know how much I was loved .The same relationship I would have liked for mine .I don't know if I am being tested or not but future DIL is posting photos of my granddaughter on FB. Is this to make me feel bad at what I am missing ,or to keep me in touch ? Probably the latter .Yes I am in touch with DS as I love him dearly and ask about the welfare of my granddaughter to let him know I still love and care for her welfare .I have the support of the rest of my family who keep me sane ,along with you my new found friends .I live in hope of a solution ,I know she is waiting for me to make the first move in reconcilliation ,but I too have my pride .In standing firm I believe lets her know her behaviour is unacceptable but at what cost ?
Dear LL: The world seems to be the same all over thanks to the internet. This DIL is the worst kind. I have the gift of hindsight...now. Like you, I saw so many red flags from the odd way my kids announced their intentions to each other, the wedding day, to the birth of their kids...the list goes on and on. Their insistence on "talk to her" no "talk to me" is just more evidence of their nuttiness. You got blindsided because there is no intention of malice in you. I am sure you were just going along in the excitement of the moment.
My DIL "trained" us early on not to be too involved with her children...then was unforgiveably furious when we "didn't even compete" to spend time with the babies. We were waiting to be invited. Can't win this one dearie.
I agree with Holliberri...we almost always just talk to be talking. When someone takes every word said and re-writes the intention, it is virtually impossible to defend yourself, since it was their intention to find something nasty - real or invented. It supports their personal life script.
Holy cats! I think I'm the only one who can see that Lancaster has some responsibility here too.
By your own words
- you are hesitant to celebrate their wedding. I'm sure SIL knows it too. Why not be glad that they are confirming their intentions to live as a family? Why not be glad that your GC is going to have a more formally joined family?
- you think DIL is posting pictures with the intention of making you feel bad. I can tell you that she's posting pictures, because she thinks they're cute, and she wants ALL of the people on her friends list to see them. It's not about you at all.
- you have your pride, well ... I hope it keeps you warm at night
- you snapped ... you had a slip of the tongue - I wonder what that means?
- you complained about them spending Christmas and New Year's with her family. Sadly, this is not your battle, this is your son's battle - if he wanted to spend Christmas or New Year's with you, he should have fought for it.
- you were talking about her to your son, that's why she wanted you to talk to her directly. When my MIL talks to my DH about me, I feel like she's "telling on me" and trying to cause trouble in my marriage. I would much prefer that, if she has a problem with me, that she bring it up to me. But she should also be ready to hear what I think too.
- you made a statement that could have been taken 2 ways by DIL, she took it the "wrong" way and you're blaming her. If you cared what she thought, you would have been horrified that you hurt her inadvertently. The feeling I'm getting (and maybe what your DIL got too) was that you were thinking "if the shoe fits?". Is this the statement that you consider the "slip of the tongue" or was there something else, before the baby was born?
- you admit you went overboard with "stuff" for the baby. This can be perceived as smothering by some women, or worse, that you're trying to usurp their power/rights as "the mother".
Also, you make judgmental comments about her being over-protective of the baby. I'm sure she knows how you feel and as a just-right-protective Mom, I'll tell you that when people say I'm over-protective, I just think that they must be UNDER-protective and do I want them around my kid? Not so much.
I know I'm reading between the lines here A LOT. But I just wanted to put a different spin on what you've told us, because I can see where, if you don't have a good relationship with your DIL, she will take things "the wrong way". And this doesn't even include any of the things that you've done to annoy DIL that you don't even know about. This is just what I've inferred from these short messages.
And from both sides, both you and DIL have been hurt. Your relationship is like a piece of wood that's had a bunch of nails driven into it. You can apologize to each other and remove the nails all you want, but there are still holes left behind. In order to move forward, you would BOTH have to be willing to walk on eggshells around each other and BOTH try and be less sensitive about your hot buttons. It sounds like a tall order, but I don't see that you should feel hopeless. She hasn't banned you from her facebook and she's waiting for you to make the next step. So maybe if you admitted that you are responsible for 50% of the failure of the relationship, you could both move forward.
Good luck - I think you'll need it.
OUCH !
The original remark was made on FB for my Siblings .My DIL thought it was for her it was in no way offensive to anyone .She phoned my son to complain .I then phoned her to apologise and offer an explanation .my remark was '' hooray for FB .lets me know what my kids are up to '' would you find this offensive ? She insisted it was meant for her no matter how many times I said it wasn't !she then sent me an offensive email more or less calling me a liar .How would you respond ? My daughter became involved against my wishes and so on and so on .This was my GC first xmas .after weeks about asking about their plans I was told we don't know what we are doing .I knew they were spending Xmas at her folks but hoped they would visit .or we could visit afterwards .The reason I conversed with my son beacause I was told not to upset her .
This is a lot more complex than you see on paper ,and I have tried initially to make things right .,without success .
holliberri has described my DIL exactly as she is ,sorry you can't see that .
I hope we make things up and yes I would like to go to the wedding but not if I'm not welcome .
LL started her original posting by being honest about the fact that she may have gone overboard on purchases for the new baby. I've also found her to be insightful concerning her role in a miscued statement that I thought she said that she apologized for numerous times. While she did not dissect her every thought, motive, and intention, I thought that she gave enough information to show some balance towards the relationship.
Does LL own any responsibility for her issues at hand.. absolutely. There are always things we could have/would have/should have done better, if only hindsight was an option. I still feel that once a person decides to build a wall around themselves to keep others out, that it's pretty hard to remain totally aloof in your approach.
LL, the general consciences here is to take the good from what we say and leave the rest. I'm sure that you fully understand that there are things you can and must change in order to try and have a normal relationship with your son and his family. Stick around here, I'm sure that one day something that someone says will make perfect sense and you will grow from there. I also wish you good luck.. we all need it :)
We are damned if we do and damned if we don't .....does anyone ever get it right ?? :-\
Quote from: lancaster lady on January 17, 2011, 08:20:47 AM
We are damned if we do and damned if we don't .....does anyone ever get it right ?? :-\
Honestly... no .. but life isn't always about getting it right.. it's doing it well :)
Hi Lancaster lady, Doing it right and doing it well are the same thing.....and you are doing it right!!
Peace and Hugs, Faith
And of course all of that depends on definitions of right and well. Not necessarily official definitions...but our own perceptions of what they mean.
Hi. I just wanted to say that I agree, LL, that you need to own some of the responsibility for the problem with your DIL. I see that you and your DIL used to get along--this means that she is not an evil woman who is out to get you. If she is, how is it that you used to get along with her? I think you are being much too sensitive on certain issues, like dissecting why she puts pictures up of her baby on facebook. She has made the same mistake--assuming that something you said on facebook was meant for her. You think it's odd that she thinks that your comment, which had nothing to do with her, upset her. I'm sure she would think it is equally odd that you believe that some boundaries or behaviors she has displayed (while hormonal and adjusting to being new mom) were directed at you--I don't think they are. I think you are both being WAY too sensitive and thinking that every little thing that the other woman does is meant as a slight toward you. It isn't.
You want your DIL to believe that you have had only the best intentions and you have accidentally overstepped or inadvertently caused hurt feelings. Can't you believe the same of her? That she also had the best intentions and she may have accidentally caused hurt feelings? I think that many of the problems between MILs and DILs can be improved greatly if, when we have a problem for the first time, we don't assume that the other side is plotting destruction and purposefully out to get us.
All I can do is relate what happened to me and my family - DIL was charming and accepting before the wedding and made a 180 degree turn immediately after. No, she's not evil, but she purposely did some very hurtful things to DH, DD & me. During that dark period in our relationship she called us horrible names, declared she hated us, and tried to eliminate any trace of us from her & DS's life. We were very hurt and confused, since by her own admission we'd done and said nothing wrong - she simply hated our existence. I do believe she was "plotting our destruction" or at the very least hoping and praying we'd disappear.
We had no recourse. We couldn't apologize, we couldn't make any overtures at all...all we could do was wait for DS to step up. As you all know from hearing me go on and on about it ad nauseum, DS did step up and we are all finally building a relationship.
All of you wonderful DILs may have difficulty believing that such a scenario is true since you wouldn't have ever made such a sharp, instant change in your treatment of your ILs. I was in shock myself since I wouldn't have done such a thing as a DIL either...but happen it did, and apparently it happens more often than we might imagine.
When such a change has occurred, or when one is mistreated from the get-go, it can cause one's emotions to be raw & sensitive. It's easy to pick apart every little communication and find the intentional (or unintentional) slights, especially if one is confused about being treated poorly in the first place. Now that my DIL has changed back to her charming, accepting self again, I don't look for those hurtful words and it's easier to let those I do question slide away.
Quote[/I don't know if I am being tested or not but future DIL is posting photos of my granddaughter on FB. Is this to make me feel bad at what I am missing ,or to keep me in touch ? Probably the latter
LL is admitting that she thinks the photos posted on FB are to keep her in touch. I think she is just acknowledging that she felt like she was being tested, not that she actually was being tested. I think she's taken a lot of responsibility; a slip of the tongue doesn't deserve ongoing punishment, especially given that an apology was issued. As for the holidays, it was one year, and when changes are made, our feelings don't always allow us to react the way we should; she says she snapped, but she didn't say what it was that she said. I think she is half admitting that she maybe could've said something different; but that doesn't mean she needs to take on responsibility for the entire thing, especially once communication gets going again.
I've been gnawing on this since yesterday morning, and I'm going to be careful here, b/c I know I was talking about alienation earlier. That could be what is going on, but it might not be. LL, you admit that you're prideful. To me, all that means is that when you're ready, you'll make the move, if you feel that is what she is waiting for. You need to sort through your feelings then decide if you're up to making the first move. While I do think you're taking an awful lot of responsibility for what happened, neither of you can move forward until you start talking to one another, which could be what she meant by "she needs to talk to me." It is hard for us to say (we're only on the internet after all), but that statement isn't synonymous with alienation; yes, it means she isn't making the first move, but it is still an opportunity for communication, b/c she left that door open for you to come through. (Of course, if she's shutting you down during communication, I am afraid that you're in a losing battle, but that bridge hasn't been crossed yet). Some women on here have been totally shut down; they'e been told not to talk to DS or DD; you still have something to work with for repair, if you choose.
If you have 4 years of a good relationship, that's a lot more than the rest of us have, and I think that means that you have a good solid foundation to work out your differences. Give it some time and space, and see how you feel and if you're up for a reconcilation. Then, communicating can begin. I think there is a possibility that this was all a big misunderstanding and that you'll all come out on the other end just fine. But, you said yourself she did this with DS's best friend. If this appears to be an ongoing pattern with you once you've tried communication, it is time for you to start trying to give yourself what you're not getting from others, and the very first thing on that list, is respect.
I really do wish you the best of luck, I'll be thinking about this. I know you're already overwhelmed as it is, and sorting through all of our opinions can add to that sometimes. None of us mean any harm, and we're here for support.
Hi Pen-
I am very sorry for what happened in your family. From what LL says here, I don't think this is the dynamic she is experiencing. It is true what you say--"It is easy to pick apart every little communication and find the intentional or unintentional slights"--what I would like to do is encourage LL not to do that --not to pick apart every communication and turn it into something it is not. If she does, she'll only further upset herself and the estrangement will grow. I once had a HUGE dust up with my MIL over something she did. The sad part was, the thing she did WAS intentional and she and DH actually lied to try to cover their tracks :-\ I got over this problem with her because she acknowledged it eventually and apologized and I told myself that even though she had done wrong and lied about it to boot, she was acting from a place of fear and insecurity rather than a desire to destroy me. I still feel upset about it every once in awhile, but then I think, hey, we are all human and we all do really stupid things sometimes. All I can do is my best and hope that others will also do theirs.
@Holliberri- My goal is not to dissect LL and give her a running tally of what she has done wrong and what she hasn't done wrong--I don't think that is productive because we can possibly know or understand all the communications that have gone back and forth between LL and her DIL. There are probably a few things that the DIL would bring up that would never occur to LL as problems and vice versa. What I think is productive is to acknowledge that she owns part of this problem and therefore she is responsible to try to fix it. If LL does own that--GREAT! She has taken a first step toward her DIL instead of away from her. LL can't control her DIL's actions, she can only control her own. The best she can do is approach her DIL with an open heart, tell her that she wants to fix things and do what she can to build a healthy relationship.
Quote from: Pen on January 17, 2011, 11:22:18 AM
All I can do is relate what happened to me and my family - DIL was charming and accepting before the wedding and made a 180 degree turn immediately after. No, she's not evil, but she purposely did some very hurtful things to DH, DD & me. During that dark period in our relationship she called us horrible names, declared she hated us, and tried to eliminate any trace of us from her & DS's life. We were very hurt and confused, since by her own admission we'd done and said nothing wrong - she simply hated our existence. I do believe she was "plotting our destruction" or at the very least hoping and praying we'd disappear.
We had no recourse. We couldn't apologize, we couldn't make any overtures at all...all we could do was wait for DS to step up. As you all know from hearing me go on and on about it ad nauseum, DS did step up and we are all finally building a relationship.
All of you wonderful DILs may have difficulty believing that such a scenario is true since you wouldn't have ever made such a sharp, instant change in your treatment of your ILs. I was in shock myself since I wouldn't have done such a thing as a DIL either...but happen it did, and apparently it happens more often than we might imagine.
When such a change has occurred, or when one is mistreated from the get-go, it can cause one's emotions to be raw & sensitive. It's easy to pick apart every little communication and find the intentional (or unintentional) slights, especially if one is confused about being treated poorly in the first place. Now that my DIL has changed back to her charming, accepting self again, I don't look for those hurtful words and it's easier to let those I do question slide away.
Pen,
I really do believe this happens, but what I am shocked about is that your DIL would admit that you and DH didn't do anything wrong! The fact that you guys can come forward, and she can be honest about what she did, while saying that you and DH didn't have any culpability, floors me. I think thats the hardest part of all to believe (at least for me). I know you all still are in the early, precious stages of repair, but her acknowledgement of this is huge. I think you also built a good foundation early on, so you all can come through okay in the end. Please don't think I'm defending her, b/c I'm not, I just find it wonderful that she would do those things and then be strong enough to say, yes, I did this (I'm sure she came to this conclusion with a lot encouragement from DS, but still...).
That is why I'm trying to toe the line b/c I know LL could have a serious problem on her hands, but on the other hand it could be nothing. It is so hard to tell right now, and you have the benefit of hindsight.
I'm going to share some, and bare with me, I have a point:
At our first Christmas with the ILs, my DH was sick and couldn't talk. She wouldn't take him to the hospital (I didn't have my car) b/c the doctor said it wasn't dangerous (but it turns out it was life threatening, we just weren't giving him an accurate list of symptoms). She wouldn't give the papers over to me to fill out but insisted on filling them out herself and asking him questions that he couldn't answer. I knew all of the answers already, but she wouldn't hand the papers over. She cried when he took me into the ER with him and not her.
Then crisis #2, our best friend died overseas, while we were on a visit with them. We wanted to fly back, but she was upset b/c it was cutting into our family time, and wouldn't hear of it. We let her have her way, missed a memorial and then when the vacation was up, she stomped her foot and cried b/c we decided to see if we could stay longer over here to go to his stateside memorial. That meant traveling back to my parents house (it was a lot closer to the memorial), and biding our time. She said that I saw my family too much and it wasn't fair; and that if we were taking more time off, it should be with her, not my family. It had nothing to do with my family, it was our best friend that died. I regret not going to his memorial service, and we both needed closure so desperately then, but we couldn't see that b/c of her feelings. We bagged that idea and headed for our new home across country, just so we wouldn't make waves.
It came to a head when DD was finally born, but it didn't get anywhere. DH asked her not to overstimulate the baby and that when DD is fussy, less is more. She cried and said she'd never touch the baby again, and that I make everything a power struggle. I'm not making it one, it IS one. I didn't sleep for 3 days after that b/c I didn't think what he said was a big deal, but we hurt her anyway; I was worried about her feelings, not mine, DH's or DDs. I was told by DH that we were at our "limit" of issues with his parents, and that I can't say anything if I don't like what she's doing with DD (except, mind you, he was the one that spoke up about DD, not me, and I've never brought up the last two issues at all, which is why they stew, I think).
It is hard for me to let go of all of this, and I view all of these incidents squarely as control issues. DH says that she's too sensitive and we would only hurt her feelings, so I've been asked not to bring any issues with her ever. So, what can I do? I react by avoidance. I know my DD needs a relationship with her GPs, she is entitled to it, but I do try to limit the time involved. Frankly, the less I see them the better. Is it right? Absolutely not. But just b/c we can't talk about issues doesn't make them go away; they are there and ever present when we're all together. To me, the only feelings that are valid in this scenario, are hers, not mine, not DH's, and not even my DDs. This is not a comfortable situation for me to be in, so the worst thing that I can do seems to be the only thing I can do. I'm at a loss. She was devastated that we wouldn't move near them when I opted for law school, but the truth is, I can't do it. I couldn't live like this on a regular basis.
I'm rambling, but my point is that I know DILs do try to elminate ILs from their lives; I think I've done it for different reasons, and it doesn't make it right. I react poorly to a situation simply b/c I don't know what else to do. To just do it for no reason like your DIL did is just beyond me. I'm not sure who would want to live like this if they can communicate with their ILs, like your DIL and DS seemed to have been able to do. I know it was awful going through, but someday I hope to be on the road to recovery like you seem to be.
Quote from: MrsKitty on January 17, 2011, 11:53:49 AM
@Holliberri- My goal is not to dissect LL and give her a running tally of what she has done wrong and what she hasn't done wrong--I don't think that is productive because we can possibly know or understand all the communications that have gone back and forth between LL and her DIL. There are probably a few things that the DIL would bring up that would never occur to LL as problems and vice versa. What I think is productive is to acknowledge that she owns part of this problem and therefore she is responsible to try to fix it. If LL does own that--GREAT! She has taken a first step toward her DIL instead of away from her. LL can't control her DIL's actions, she can only control her own. The best she can do is approach her DIL with an open heart, tell her that she wants to fix things and do what she can to build a healthy relationship.
I wasn't trying to dissect either, in fact, in my post I admit that those of us seeing this on the internet don't know everything. My point was, that LL has apologized, and she does admit that things could've been done differently. I wholeheartedly agree that the fix to this is communication between MIL and DIL; I'm a huge proponent of communication. However, LL seems concerned that there might be more to the picture, and I was just trying to point out that if she does in fact try to communicate openly and is shut down repeatedly, that she might need to try something else and accept that the problem is not, in fact, her. I think you and I actually see eye to eye on this Mrs.Kitty, but being wary of the worst possibility still seems prudent when I read stories like Pen's.
@HB. Agreed. I also think that it is important for LL to tell anyone who has jumped into this argument between the two of them (I think she said her daughter and siblings?) to back off. It is only helpful to build up allies if one is looking for a war. I don't think that is LL's intention, so she needs to tell these individuals to back off and that they're not helping--they're hurting a situation that is really not their concern.
Mrs.Kitty
You post was honest, objective and right on in a lot of cases.
In my case...and I'm talking to you directly...DIL and I had totally different perceptions of what happened....I don't believe she lied, and I didn't lie, and honestly believe she knows that now...but there was a time, when she was so hurt, that she thought I was trying to break up they're marriage...it's all about how one perceives a situation...I thought she was trying to drive a wedge between my son and myself, and scared, oh, you bet I was...I couldn't understand why she was treating me the way she was....and visa versa...but I cannot tell you in words, the horror of the rejection I felt.
What I'm trying to say, I bet if we all sat down, and shared stories, right along with our DIL's, we would all come away, thinking the other one was lying...why, because of how we hear words...and see things...plus great fear can cause you to see things that are not happening, believe me, I know....I had been very close to my son, and I think now, depended on him way to much for my happiness....and when he married, I thought she would immediately accept my love for her...at that time, there were no forums on line like this....and when someone tried to help me look at it objectively, I would become very frustrated, b/c I thought they were saying, "it is your fault"....it was like they wouldn't believe me, and I honestly felt I didn't do anything, and wanted to believe she was evil....she was not evil...not in the least...so, just so you know, you are dead on target with this post....thank you for sharing....and I do feel, a lot of relationships, not all, but most, could be fixed if only we were able to accept this fact....that we all perceive things differently, and we all have our own cultures....plus, a MIL is so used to being in charge, that she forgets, when she was first married, how young and immature she was, how she was so excited to start her own family, her own traditions....and to have a MIL, advise, and I'm speaking about my own MIL, was like telling me, I was doing it wrong...sometimes, the slightest little thing she would do or say, would rub me the wrong way...now I can understand, but then I couldn't...
A lot of times, we hear others say, our son's love us unconditionally, well, as long as they are under our roofs, they have to, it's human nature to do so, but how utterly foolish I was to believe, that this stranger, who was now a part of my son's life, would love me unconditionally...without her first getting to know me, my ways, rubbed her the wrong way...and I can be very very strong willed...matronly, because I had been in charge for all those years....
We all have a negative and positive side, we all have tiny little things that bother us....we can be giving, but we can take a person who disagrees with us, totally wrong....because we get hurt, or offended, thinking they are telling us we are wrong, and we are not....no one is, it's simply about trying to get along with each other, and the longer we remain stubborn about that, the worse we make it on o ourselves....this is a no win situation...in the end, our son's will side with they're wives...for many reasons....
My son and I are still very close, however, it is b/c I now try very hard to respect boundaries...and think of my DIL as an equal, and someone who has her own ideas of how she sees a marriage, how she sees in-laws, and what she wants out of life, and the rest is none of my business....that is the way I wanted to be treated, why should she be any different?
My post is a generalization and in no way written in stone for every relationship out there...
as far as putting baby pictures up on FB, it's something everyone does...they are proud of they're children and want to share pictures of family with they're friends...it is actually very natural to do so....
Creme
I appreciate all your support with my own problems and feel for you with all your own problems .
I realise one of us ,that is myself and my DIL will have to make a move towards reconciliation however I feel I am still hurting and feeling a bit raw .So for the many of you who have advised space at the moment this feels right to me at this time .I am still talking to my DS on a regular basis and he sent me a photo of my GC today .I know he is desperate for this to end and it will but I feel we both need a little cooling off period . then I think we should perhaps start again without any reference to what has gone before .Hopefullly when this happens it will be a new start for us .I will however ask that if she thinks I am at fault she should say .Likewise I should be able to mention any wrongdoings towards me .With a bit of luck neither of us will take offence .
As mentioned before I have asked to see my GC on her first birthday ...or around that day .Maybe this will be the icebreaker we need .She still has to agree for me to see her first .I am ever hopeful .
Mrs K ..My daughter was told at the onset to not get involved ! However when her mother is being verbally abused it's hard to make a grown woman back off .It was wrong for her to get involved but when she sees her mom in tears ,her instincts took over .No one else is involved now till things are worked out .
I wish I could turn the clock back but whats done is done .
Quote from: holliberri on January 17, 2011, 12:59:56 PM
Quote from: MrsKitty on January 17, 2011, 11:53:49 AM
@Holliberri- My goal is not to dissect LL and give her a running tally of what she has done wrong and what she hasn't done wrong--I don't think that is productive because we can possibly know or understand all the communications that have gone back and forth between LL and her DIL. There are probably a few things that the DIL would bring up that would never occur to LL as problems and vice versa. What I think is productive is to acknowledge that she owns part of this problem and therefore she is responsible to try to fix it. If LL does own that--GREAT! She has taken a first step toward her DIL instead of away from her. LL can't control her DIL's actions, she can only control her own. The best she can do is approach her DIL with an open heart, tell her that she wants to fix things and do what she can to build a healthy relationship.
I wasn't trying to dissect either, in fact, in my post I admit that those of us seeing this on the internet don't know everything. My point was, that LL has apologized, and she does admit that things could've been done differently. I wholeheartedly agree that the fix to this is communication between MIL and DIL; I'm a huge proponent of communication. However, LL seems concerned that there might be more to the picture, and I was just trying to point out that if she does in fact try to communicate openly and is shut down repeatedly, that she might need to try something else and accept that the problem is not, in fact, her. I think you and I actually see eye to eye on this Mrs.Kitty, but being wary of the worst possibility still seems prudent when I read stories like Pen's.
Holli, you make very good points...but I also think it is so important to get everyone's point of view...so that the op can go back and conclude for herself...everyone's input is so important...and I say this, b/c I am still learning from you and everyone here, and feel it is essential for all of us, to gain from everyone's point of view...otherwise, this forum wouldn't work, but it does, and is better then any other forum out there, concerning MIL's/DIL's troubles...you to, have made some very good points, thank you
Quote from: lancaster lady on January 17, 2011, 01:43:24 PM
I appreciate all your support with my own problems and feel for you with all your own problems .
I realise one of us ,that is myself and my DIL will have to make a move towards reconciliation however I feel I am still hurting and feeling a bit raw .So for the many of you who have advised space at the moment this feels right to me at this time .I am still talking to my DS on a regular basis and he sent me a photo of my GC today .I know he is desperate for this to end and it will but I feel we both need a little cooling off period . then I think we should perhaps start again without any reference to what has gone before .Hopefullly when this happens it will be a new start for us .I will however ask that if she thinks I am at fault she should say .Likewise I should be able to mention any wrongdoings towards me .With a bit of luck neither of us will take offence .
As mentioned before I have asked to see my GC on her first birthday ...or around that day .Maybe this will be the icebreaker we need .She still has to agree for me to see her first .I am ever hopeful .
Mrs K ..My daughter was told at the onset to not get involved ! However when her mother is being verbally abused it's hard to make a grown woman back off .It was wrong for her to get involved but when she sees her mom in tears ,her instincts took over .No one else is involved now till things are worked out .
I wish I could turn the clock back but whats done is done .
I honestly believe your on the right track, and given time, this will get better, but it takes a whole lot of hard work on both parts...so please know, we're rooting for you in the biggest of ways...
backing off right now and allowing things to cool down is very wise...
hugs
Creme
"Pen,
I really do believe this happens, but what I am shocked about is that your DIL would admit that you and DH didn't do anything wrong! The fact that you guys can come forward, and she can be honest about what she did, while saying that you and DH didn't have any culpability, floors me. I think thats the hardest part of all to believe (at least for me). I know you all still are in the early, precious stages of repair, but her acknowledgement of this is huge. I think you also built a good foundation early on, so you all can come through okay in the end. Please don't think I'm defending her, b/c I'm not, I just find it wonderful that she would do those things and then be strong enough to say, yes, I did this (I'm sure she came to this conclusion with a lot encouragement from DS, but still...)." Quote from Holliberri
Holliberri, my DIL never admitted any wrongdoing, just that WE never did anything wrong, and has therefore never apologized. We've never discussed with her the horrible things she said and did. She simply started acting civilly. DH & have decided to take the high road; we pretend it never happened when we're around her, and I suppose we've forgiven her, although it will be a long, long time before we forget how she & her FOO treated us.
The reason we are able to build a relationship now is not because she admitted her mistakes or apologized for being cruel, it's because DS stepped up and demanded time with us. Perhaps they also went to marriage counseling? Whatever turned things around, DIL is now being nicer and we appreciate her efforts.
Dear Creme:
Thanks so much for your always insightful post. I appreciate your words very much and will think about them!
Quote from: lancaster lady on January 17, 2011, 01:43:24 PM
Mrs K ..My daughter was told at the onset to not get involved ! However when her mother is being verbally abused it's hard to make a grown woman back off .It was wrong for her to get involved but when she sees her mom in tears ,her instincts took over .No one else is involved now till things are worked out .
I wish I could turn the clock back but whats done is done .
LL--I am glad to hear that your daughter has backed off. After you have taken a cooling off period and eventually try to reconnect with DIL, I would advise keeping your progress in your relationship with your DIL private from your daughter while things are still tense. Your daughter may jump in again (with the best of intentions--but not the desired outcome). Sometimes we daughters wrongly think our mothers need rescuing, when our mothers are often the strongest ones in the room....
Pen,
I'm sorry that she didn't apologize, I thought that admitting you did nothing wrong would've been followed by an apology. Although, in my experience with apologies, sometimes that IS the apology, albeit an awful one.
Creme? I'm not hijacking this any post further (as I already did with my awful MIL rant), and I am very welcoming of everyone's point of view so feel free to private message me and point out in my responses where you think I'm not doing that. I am here for self-evaluation more than anything else, so if I can polish up my communication skills with your input, I'd love to.
You can also open a new thread on the subject if you want to and we can all learn. Sending love...
Holliberry...
I apologize if you felt like I was saying that you should...or your not contributing in the right way...I wanted to commend you and was thinking outloud, that what we're doing in this thread right now is so essential and thanking you for your input....perhaps I worded it wrong, but was trying to say to you, this thread is working due to posters as yourself...
and please don't feel like your hijacking a thread...when we read other peoples problems, they sometimes hit a nerve within our own issues...and we tend to share our thoughts and feelings...I felt like that to, when I first came, but Luise pointed out that we need to get off topic to communicate with each other and she wants us to feel comfortable about sharing within threads, and if I'm wrong, Luise, please feel free to correct me....
Latest from DS ...I can see my GC when I make it up with DIL !
So where does that leave me ? Crawling on all fours ?
He wasn't willing to discuss it with me ,anything you have to say regarding DIL you have to say to her .
Does this mean that she is waiting for me to apologise again ??I now see she thinks that this is all my fault .So I have decided it's still too soon for me and perhaps I will wait a bit longer .If we meet I will either cry or get angry .
what are your thoughts on this ? You can't see your GC unless ...!!!
Stalemate ....!
Sorry Lancaster Lady, but I have to agree that you can't see your baby GD unless you're getting along with the baby's mother.
Your DIL thinks you hate her.
She thinks you think poorly of her (this could be attached to her own feelings of shame at being an unwed mother).
She's worried that it will rub off on how you treat her child.
She worries that you will bad-mouth her to her child.
She also thinks that you want HER out of the equation, and since she's angry at you, why should she let you get your heart's desire (time with DS and GD, without her)?
I agree that you should take some time to think about this. Because it doesn't sound to me like you WANT to reconcile with her. You're assuming she wants you to beg for her forgiveness. That's YOUR assumption. Until you can talk to her openly, with remorse (for letting the relationship get to this point) in your heart, you should probably stay away. Because for her to be acting this way, it means you've hurt her. Even if it was completely inadvertently, you hurt her, as much as she hurt you. You see yourself as the victim, she sees HERSELF as the victim. And unfortunately, she has the Prize. And if you want access to your GD, you will have to toe DIL's line.
You are wrong on all counts ....sorry !
you don't know me ,so how can you presume all these things !
You say she hurt me ...you are right !
You say I hurt her ...I have apologised on countless occasions .
I would never ever belittle her to anyone never mind my GD .
I would rather die than hurt my GD .and at one year old I couldnt bad mouth her about anyone .
Sorry that isn't my style I do not badmouth people .
She is my GD's mother ,why would I want my GD to be without her .
Also my son loves her ,why would I want to hurt him !
You are totally wrong on all counts .Also there is no shame ,this baby was planned and wanted and loved .
I resent my GD being compared to a prize .
This is not a contest !!
LL - I too do not do the crawling thing to well. While Scoop made some good points, we do not know if this is really how your DIL feels or if this is her reasoning. Making these types of assumption (the five that Scoop listed) could prove to be very damaging. Assumptions are in part what has led to this situation, I don't believe that continuing will help alleviate the situation.
Since your DIL did make statements that you repeated here concerning her nine month gestational period, I still feel that she has entered into a power struggle for reason unknown to us. I would be saddened if she were to use her child, her baby as the crowned prize that has to be won like an ultimate frisbee game. And you should never have to lose yourself or your dignity to have a respectful relationship.
If this were me, I would approach the matter and the dil/gf without a sorrowful apology. When ready, I would be a little more matter of fact and simply state the obvious which is that would like to make amends and continue in a blame-free healthy relationship.
As far as your son goes.. I think you'll respect him more for not playing the middle man in your relationship with your future dil.. but at the same time you as his mother have every right to speak to him about his feelings and concerns and to be able to voice yours as well.
Quote from: lancaster lady on January 18, 2011, 09:32:03 AM
Latest from DS ...I can see my GC when I make it up with DIL !
So where does that leave me ? Crawling on all fours ?
He wasn't willing to discuss it with me ,anything you have to say regarding DIL you have to say to her .
Does this mean that she is waiting for me to apologise again ??I now see she thinks that this is all my fault .So I have decided it's still too soon for me and perhaps I will wait a bit longer .If we meet I will either cry or get angry .
what are your thoughts on this ? You can't see your GC unless ...!!!
Stalemate ....!
don't crawl, but call her...however, wait a week or two to calm down, and she calms down, then call her, and just say Hello, How are you doing? Wait for her to answer you and then, ask her, "What can I do to make this problem between you and I go better?" "do you have any suggestions, b/c I really don't like this at all, and I want to be friends, so if you have any suggestions, please share them with me.?" Then when she starts sharing things, DO NOT get angry, she is not saying you were wrong when this happened or that happened, what she is saying that she was hurt when that happened, meaning, she for some reason, has different feelings about things...if you both learn to communicate with each other, you will learn to know each other and what not to do, around each other....all relationships take work, it's just that you two got off on the wrong foot, and your son is refusing to get caught in the middle, and he is right...you need to discuss this with her....she is the person you have to win, you already won your son....
I don't know why these things happen, but they do, and it is sad, b/c if we remain stubborn about it, and content to keep saying, "I didn't do anything wrong".....then we loose, b/c in the end, we're doing it to ourselves....and this is from my experience of many years of pain and sorrow due to my own stubborness.....
So you now have a choice, and my advice to you would be to wave the white flag...what's more important? You have to decide...
Good luck and know your in my thoughts....
Creme
LL, I am very sorry you are going through this. It is terribly hard when a parent uses a child as emotional blackmail on a grandparent. I am going through this myself, and I have steered away from these conversations because I have a hard time seperating my personal feelings on this subject and be objective.
But I wanted you to know you are not alone. And I do not share the opinion that for her to be acting this way, that you have had to hurt her. Some people are mean spirited and self-centered, period. No amount of apology is good enough for some people and we can't change them.
I am wishing you the best, and I truly hope it works out for you.
We all make assumptions here. We have to. We offer what comes up for us in the hopes that it will be discounted if it is off the mark. That's all anyone can do. Sending love...
Quote from: Scoop on January 18, 2011, 09:47:21 AM
Your DIL thinks you hate her.
She thinks you think poorly of her (this could be attached to her own feelings of shame at being an unwed mother).
She's worried that it will rub off on how you treat her child.
She worries that you will bad-mouth her to her child.
She also thinks that you want HER out of the equation, and since she's angry at you, why should she let you get your heart's desire (time with DS and GD, without her)?
Yes Luise.. we do all make assumptions, but this list of assumptions are almost being presented as facts. And since LL is new here she has not given the impression that any of these 5 reasons are viable.
I want to start off with saying that I think that this forum is the BEST place for these discussions. It's so awesome to be able to see another point of view, without all the emotions tangled in. So much better to get it all out here, where (hopefully) there will be no hurt feelings and no real-life consequences.
LL - I offered you an alternative view. I offered you what your DIL 'might' be thinking. And I feel like you shot me down without even considering what I wrote. It makes me wonder, if you speak to your DIL this way, it might offend her.
I've mentioned before about "direct" talkers and "indirect" talkers and how the styles don't mix well. An indirect talker beats around the bush and gets to the point very indirectly, often with hints and insinuations. A direct talker tells it like it is. Neither is wrong, they're just different. The problem arises when they try to communicate. The direct talker thinks the indirect talker is manipulative. The indirect talker thinks the direct talker is a brutal bully.
Is it possible that the WAY you communicate is getting in the way?
You can also look up askers vs guessers for another way that communication can get mixed up.
LL - I really am trying to help you.
Quote from: lancaster lady on January 18, 2011, 09:32:03 AM
Latest from DS ...I can see my GC when I make it up with DIL !
So where does that leave me ? Crawling on all fours ?
He wasn't willing to discuss it with me ,anything you have to say regarding DIL you have to say to her .
Does this mean that she is waiting for me to apologise again ??I now see she thinks that this is all my fault .So I have decided it's still too soon for me and perhaps I will wait a bit longer .If we meet I will either cry or get angry .
what are your thoughts on this ? You can't see your GC unless ...!!!
Stalemate ....!
Dear LL,
I don't agree with some of the advice you have been given here on WW. Sometimes there is such a thing as an evil DIL. I used to believe that mine was evil, because no matter what I did or said, she found a way to misconstrue my intentions, and she would put another notch in her "Evil MIL" belt that she wore everywhere. She was always rude to me in her own home, usually by ignoring me - refusing to make eye contact or talk to me - even when there was no transgression on my part. I came to WW because I was tired of crying, crawling, sending gifts, etc. WW has helped me get some dignity back.
So with that introduction, I would like to say to you that it may be that you can never win with your DIL. I am pretty sure that is true for me, and I often feel sorry for my DS because of the burden he must carry each day in trying to live up to her impossible standards. However, I have now come to realize that I must withdraw from DIL, no matter what the cost. I am actually beginning to feel pretty good about myself again.
You have already apologized. Therefore another apology won't fix things. Your DIL is using your GD to keep you on your knees and crying. My recommendation is to withdraw from this situation for as long as necessary. Work on you. I myself am working on heeling my knees (which were bloodied by all the crawling) and growing a backbone.
Let us help you get yourself back. You will not be a good role model for your GD if you need to crawl to her mother in order to be allowed to see her. Strengthen yourself, grow a backbone if you don't have one, and dry those tears!!!
We love you. And we see our old selves in you. Let us help you as others have helped us.
I just love seasage...... ;D
I'm hopeful that LL's dil is not a hater of all mil's... they had a good relationship before assumptions were made and I'm sure they can have a healthy relationship in the future. But if LL were to 'crawl' back to her future dil, I can't help but to feel that she would have set the standard of what her dil would always expect. Since this does not appear to be LL's personality, she could only keep this pretense so long before she really did snap.
I find that we are more respected when we are true to ourselves first.
Scoop....
if you read all my postings ,you will see how I tried to welcome my future DIL to the family .With family parties to introduce her ,gifts ,outings .Presents for the expectant mother and baby .More gifts when they moved house .Offers of help when needed .
Iwas told by DS not to upset her by saying things (!) .....my whole time with her was like walking on eggshells ,never a criticism or crossword .Why would I be hostile to the person my son had chosen for his wife .
She chose to change things by accusing me of ''not being nice on FB''.the remark which you can see in previous postings .She chose to change our relationship not me .She would not accept my explanation or my apology .
So the tone of conversation now is nil. Her choice .There are only so many times to say sorry .
Laurie
How right you are ..you can't build a good relationship on lies .
I am also concerned that she is using my GD as ransom .
I feel I'm back to square one ,and it will be a bit longer yet .
thanks Laurie ..:)
Quote from: lancaster lady on January 18, 2011, 11:18:06 AM
I was told by DS not to upset her by saying things (!) .....my whole time with her was like walking on eggshells, never a criticism or crossword.
My DS also tries to 'protect' his wife. I have begun to realize that a lot of the problem originates with DS, not from DIL. He will tell us (DH, DD and myself) that we can't order certain things in a restaurant, because DIL doesn't want to see those things. He won't let us touch anything in his house, can't put anything on the kitchen counter because DIL is OCD. It seems he is always trying to keep her from seeing the world as it is. I am starting to feel sorry for him, because it must be a burden to live with that woman and try to protect her against everything.
But my point is that your DS may be in a protective mode. It may be that many of the orders he issues come from him, not from your DIL.
seasage
Quote from: lancaster lady on January 18, 2011, 11:18:06 AM
Iwas told by DS not to upset her by saying things (!) .....my whole time with her was like walking on eggshells, never a criticism or crossword.
Thinking about it, I would lay a small bet that your DS walks on eggshells around her. He is transmitting to you those things he knows to be true for himself.
I wonder if it is possible for a WW to help her son grow a backbone at this late stage? I would do that for my own DS, if I could.
I am having trouble understanding why folks are saying that LL has to "crawl" to her DIL to have a relationship. Perhaps I am missing something.
I would like to share something with the hope of being helpful to LL--the story does not involve my MIL, but I think it might be helpful to the discussion. For about 8 years, my BIL treated me VERY coldly. He wouldn't say hello to me when I walked into a room, he wouldn't look me in the eye when I spoke to him and would basically just give one word answers whenever I asked him a question, sometimes with a huge eye roll. Can you say "awkward?" DH and I always bought him multiple gifts for Christmas and birthdays--he never gave me a thing (not even something that DH and I could use as a couple). Anyway, I basically just took the high road and ignored his bad behavior and pretended like I didn't notice a thing. I was always polite and never put up a stink about it (to the BIL--DH and I discussed this many times). DH finally yelled at him once after about 7 years of bad behavior and told him to shape up. It didn't work. Then, after about 8 years into the relationship, he finally started to treat me like a normal human being. Why? I have no idea. I can only assume that he either decided I wasn't an evil person or just decided that it was better for his relationship with his brother to treat his wife with respect. I never "crawled" to my BIL to improve his behavior--I just refused to engage in his nonsense and he got tired of it (it only took 8 years--LOL!).
I understand that LL has a more pressing problem because she wants to see her GC and she doesn't want to wait 8 years for that... but I don't see why she can't (eventually--when she has cooled off) approach her DIL and say "I want to have a good relationship with you, but I'm not sure how to do that. I am interested to know what you think I can do to improve things between us." I don't see this as "crawling"--just being an open person who is willing to compromise and see someone else's perspective. LL's DIL may have a horrible reaction--who knows? Or, LL's DIL might have a really great reaction and they could work through their issues with one another. I guess my point is that there are more than two choices here (to "crawl" to the DIL or to cut off the relationship). There is also a third option for LL and probably also a fourth and a fifth that we haven't even thought about!
LL--maybe it would help you to see a therapist about this and eventually bring your DIL for a joint session?
LL,
I have a DH who for whatever reason, is afraid I'm absolutely going to rip his mother's head off if I approach her about something. So, he tries to very delicately handle it. And, frankly, he's awful at it.
We went to counseling and the therapist basically told him he needed to let me handle his mom my own way. Well, he stopped going to counseling after that. He is afraid of seeing his mom cry, but the thing is, if he does say something to her, she cries anyway, so he failed at averting the crisis anyhow. He told the therapist, "If my mom cries, we obviously said the wrong thing." The therapist told him that definitely wasn't the case, so he quit going. For some reason, to save both of us (me and MIL), he puts himself in the middle, and he ends up making things worse. He tells her "don't say this, don't say that" and tells me the same thing. It's exhausting; sometimes I think that HE is the reason we're both walking around on eggshells.
I wish he would say, "work it out amongst yourselves." I'd have direct communication with her, I might feel respected, and she might see that I'm not half the things I'm made out to be. She would also have a much better idea at what my boundaries are, instead of guessing, b/c DH can't really tell her what they are: he has no boundaries with me since he's my spouse.
I still see DD wanting to talk to you directly as a good sign. I have NO relationship with my MIL b/c DH is so worried about possible hurt feelings. I don't think you should talk to her until you're ready, but on the same token, I would respect her space and not expect to see your GC until then. Until I was ready to have an honest discussion with her, I would've assumed that I'd be staying away from GC too; I don't like to be around people I'm not communicating with, period. Not easy, but I'm not one to continue on pretending nothing is wrong either; I think things fester that way.
Scoop....I think what you had to say about direct and indirect talkers was insightful, it really made me reflect on my differences with other people and that perhaps people aren't as bad as I think they are, we just communicate differently. I will have to research overcoming communication barriers like this, I'd never heard of them before.
@Seasage-I just wanted to say that my dh has diagnosed OCD and it is soooooo stressful for both the OCD sufferer and for the spouse. I don't know if you have read up on the disorder, but I encourage you to do so as it may shed some light for you (you may have already done this--if not, please do!) . I can tell you how helpless a spouse feels watching the person they love most in the world get so upset and anxiety-ridden that they work themselves into a tailspin and sometimes even physically harm themselves. It is a very tough thing to deal with.
Quotelancaster lady
Scoop....
if you read all my postings ,you will see how I tried to welcome my future DIL to the family .With family parties to introduce her ,gifts ,outings .Presents for the expectant mother and baby .More gifts when they moved house .Offers of help when needed .
OK, I'm going to try and explain, please put yourself in your DIL's shoes...yes, you did, give to her, and you were getting along fine, however, way back, Luise posted something asking you what you said to your DIL...you said you apologized, however, sometimes it takes a lot more to gain forgiveness after harsh words have been spoken....and harsh words undo all the good you did....
QuoteIwas told by DS not to upset her by saying things (!) .....my whole time with her was like walking on eggshells ,never a criticism or crossword .Why would I be hostile to the person my son had chosen for his wife .
Of course it was like walking on egg shells, you both had a dissagreement, and after anyone has a disagreement and has to be around that person, it is surely like walking on egg shells. And I bet you any money, she felt the same way around you? Believe me, she does...and please understand, as long as you keep this going, it's going to effect not only son, but they're marriage as well...
QuoteShe chose to change things by accusing me of ''not being nice on FB''.the remark which you can see in previous postings .She chose to change our relationship not me .She would not accept my explanation or my apology .
So the tone of conversation now is nil. Her choice .There are only so many times to say sorry .
What she chose to do is vent, just like your venting here...it is no different...and if I'm getting this right, she only said, "you were not very nice"....yanno, let me tell you, it could have been much worse words then that, I see that as an open cry for attention to this matter....she's hurting just as much as you are and unless and until you understand that...this will be a war...
Your not crawling, and when you use that kind of sentence, "what am I supposed to do, crawl back to her?" I believe your words were, shows a definate defiant attitude that doesn't want to resolve this...I'm sorry LL, very sorry, but I'm not going to tell you what you want to hear, I'm going to try and help you, like some of the others have here, by saying I truly do care and want to see this resolved, but as long as you look at it as "Crawling" to her, it will never work...it's your attitude...and that's what you've got to change....what you need to do is resolve this, and move forward and forget it....I believe all your DIL wants to do, is have you like her...whatever it was that you said to her, hurt her deeply....and I'm not siding with her, I'm just stating fact....then she retaliated, by maybe saying something awful back to you, but she honestly thinks you don't like her...so, why, why does she think that.
LL, you can do whatever you please....honest, it is your decission and no one elses...but I don't believe your DIL is evil...what I think is, that something happened to cause you two to unfortunately get off on the wrong track...and LL, believe me, women can be vile when they get they're dander up and we start imagining all kinds of things, until we actually believe them....about that person....
LL, please try...and look at it from her point of view....if you don't and you continue to fight this, and look at it as crawling back to her? Then it will never ever be resolved...you've got to want to do it....so, I'm suggesting, you take a few days or a couple of weeks or months to think about this, and replace your hurt, anger and frustrations with calm and understanding....
Yanno what you most angry and hurt about, is the rejection, as rejection can really hurt a person deeply....
Lets keep talking about this, and make a list right here about why your hurt, and address each one....as women come into respond, keep an open mind, don't misunderstand that anyone is saying your wrong, what we're all trying to desprately do is help you...don't take offense or feel like you must defend your actions...we are not siding with her, we're trying to help you...and the only way to do that is to drop the anger, blame, hurt and learn how to make this better.
see LL, if this were an acquantance at work or a distant friend, you could walk away and never look back, right...however, this person you cannot walk away from, and more so, you've got to make it right and a lot of times, it's awful hard to do that....and maybe this is one of the biggest lessons your going to learn in your entire life...maybe just maybe, you'll end up being best friends with her in the future, wouldn't you like that, wouldn't that make everyone happy....so, what's the problem? What do you have to loose? You have everything to loose if you insist on the attitude you have right now...there is nothing more successful then love, so love her...and show her you love her, she may reject you once, twice, three times, however, your a lot older and stronger and more mature then she is, so keep trying, and let go of the anger and pride.....pride doesn't get us anywhere...it only throws salt on the wound....
You have 2 choices...you can continue to be resentful, angry and not respond, or, you can try...which is very very hard...but shows a much better character, and in the end, you'll love yourself more for doing so....
Crawl? I think not, more so, mending the problem and moving on....it's called communication...and there is nothing wrong with it....
I'm going to say this again...
What's more important, being right and thinking you win, and let me tell you, there are no winners in this kind of situation, only loosers, pain and heartache...or, changing your whole outlook and attitude and coming out smelling like a rose, and believe you me, there is nothing more rewarding then making this work...I've been there, right where you are, same identicle situation....and it ain't worth it, unless your the kind of mother that relishes in the fact that this is causing your son a lot of heartache...if she's happy, your son's happy and what more could a mother want for her son????? So, I decided, I needed to take a good long look at myself and cop some ownership in this, b/c it takes two to tango....and when I started letting go of pride, stubborness, anger, I realized there is nothing on the face of this earth more important then my family...so if you want it bad enough, you'll listen to these DIL's and if you don't, you just keep looking at it as crawling back to her....and nothing will be accomplished, it will get worse and worse, until your heart breaks in two...you can't win at this and you won't.
And if you think I'm being mean, let me tell you, I'm sitting here crying right now, b/c I've been there and know your pain...and all the horrible emotions your going thru....and yanno who caused this pain? Me, not her, Me, b/c I was stubborn and had a very bad attitude. Do you know I thought and convinced myself she was evil...she wasn't evil...so you know I actually talked myself into believing that she hated me, that she was trying to turn my son against me, she was doing nothing of the kind, she was hurting just as much as I was....and my son was so discouraged, so depressed, and it weighed heavily on they're marriage, and that's what really tore me apart, when I found out they went to counseling b/c of me and our problem...I was devestated, that I had caused them both so much heartache b/c of my stubborn pride....it wasn't worth it, 13 long years lost....gone....is that what you want?
Please know I'm saying these words with lots of love, honestly and a whole lot of concern for you and your family....I want to see this work and I believe it can....I do...
do you realize, this is how wars are started? Think about it...please....this is not productive, this is debilitating and it destroys lives....and you will not see your GC...think about it...long and hard and with a great deal of compassion....and desire to fix this...I'm begging you to do this....b/c I know you can...however, you won't...your looking for approval and justification...and that will not get you anywhere....I promise you....
you'll be in my thoughts and prayers and I'm not going to give up on you girl....
Creme
Kitty... I know that I used the word crawl, based on what LL said that she felt that she was being expected to do. And I agree, if this is not within her personality that that is definitely not the right choice for her. I think a lot can be accomplished with a straight forward approach, with no blame, and no loss of dignity on either side.
I don't know if I could agree with the therapist... I can see how that might work for some but I don't know how that would go over with the future dil... would you not be telling her that she has all these mental and emotional issues that only a pro can handle (which may be the case but that would be for the dil to decide).
Seasage... you probably have a valid point when you said
QuoteThinking about it, I would lay a small bet that your DS walks on eggshells around her. He is transmitting to you those things he knows to be true for himself.
I don't know if lacking a back bone is the right way of looking at it... maybe he doesn't know how to juggle all the different entities in his life yet.
Quote from: holliberri on January 18, 2011, 11:54:03 AM
LL,
I have a DH who for whatever reason, is afraid I'm absolutely going to rip his mother's head off if I approach her about something. So, he tries to very delicately handle it. And, frankly, he's awful at it.
Holliberri.. that paragraph stuck me as being so honest and so darn funny. But he's trying :)
:'( :'( :'( :'( Ok, I am done crying!!!! now instead of being sad i am just really pissed off!!!! My DIL uses my grandchild as a tool, a weapon, and refuses to let me see him because she doesn't feel comfortable with me. yet she was comfortable just last week, and the week before that when xmas came. In the summer I thru her a christaining party cause he own mother would not, and i threw a backyard wedding for her and my son cause her own mother would not, and of course after all the money spent on her and what she wanted, she stopped talking to me. This time was because she didn't like the fact that I wanted to taker my children out to dinner (they are twins) or maybe its because she thought she could twist something I said and make it out to be huge. Well, this time she has gone too far!!!! I read alot of the posts here and although its sad to see grandchildren being used as a tool, I think her bipolar will get the better of her someday. Ok, so I am venting and have not said much as to why and what has happened, but yesterday I was sad and today, not so sad, just angry. I need to cool off!!!!!Bipolar is a horrible thing to have. I know she did not want it, and prob my son walks on eggshells around her, but its his mess, not mine. Just wish she didn't have to use the baby as a tool against me and my husband. She is so evil. and now she is pregnant and cannot take meds!!!! remember, just venting here, cause I could never say this to my son or the B@#$h
Creme : you are missing the point here .We were walking on eggshells before the disagreement.The comment on FB was not for my DIL but for my own DD and other DS .It said again ..''Hooray for FB ,let's me know what my kids are up to '' Is this offensive to anyone ?? My kids were not offended in any way ! Why my DIL took offence I will never know .I explained it wasn't directed at her .She called me a liar !
So who should be the offended one ??
I think you should read all my posts on this subject ''Lost for Words'' because I was truly lost for words why someone .anyone should take offence at this statement on FB.
If anyone it should be me who expects an apology ,however I apologised to her for her taking offence .
I think giving blood would be easier !
Quote from: Pooh on January 18, 2011, 10:55:35 AM
I just love seasage...... ;D
Awww, gee. Thanks. :-[ :-[ :-[
LL,
We've all read your post about the FB message, and I think everyone agrees it was perceived the wrong way. Terrible, but it is just a disagreement that needs to be worked out. Tech media and social networks do this to us, and there are people that passive aggressively post FB messages all the time. I'm not defending her, but with how FB can be, I see where she could've misunderstood.
You can't air your feelings about being called a liar until you both start communicating. You can't get an apology for it until you both start talking to one another. Without communication, you can bet there will be another blow up about FB..."Is she posting these photos to upset me? Is she talking about her weekend to make me jealous?" It goes on and on; it won't end until you're ready for a discussion with her.
We can help you get there, I think; and you can take as much time as you need; but until you're ready, you're going to remain in the status quo. Communicating with her could offer a lot of benefit to you, too, not just her.
I think we can sometimes get stuck in the "whys" and clutter things up with logic. Others are often on automatic, habitual behavior in which the "why" disappeared long ago. We apologize for appeasement and to move on, not because we have anything to apologize for. The whole dynamic is devoid of justice.
Wow, Katie84!!
You have me ROTFL. You are going to heal a lot faster than any of the rest of us! I want some of whatever you have.
seasage
LL,
Please read this part of Creme's post again:
"You're looking for approval and justification...and that will not get you anywhere."
I say this with absolute love--what is your goal? Do you want to fix this problem with your DIL or are you looking for approval on your position? Both may be important to you, but only one will result in you having a happy and close relationship with your grandchild. Please think about it.
@Laurie-I see your point about therapy. Everyone has different ideas about therapy. Pretty much everyone I know (myself included) has been in therapy at one point or another, so I see it as pretty much no big deal and kinda like going to the dentist--LOL! Not everyone sees it this way and LL should tread lightly here. Even if she isn't comfortable asking her DIL to go to therapy with her--I think LL should definitely consider it for herself. I know some people don't agree, but I am a HUGE proponent of therapy (with a good, licensed therapist)--I have literally seen it save lives.
Yes I tried one when I found myself to be a little anxious about my son's eventual deployment.. Thanks to her I found out that I was dehydrated and my name is really Debbie, not Laurie. I think it's more helpful and easier to find a good dentist :)... at least they can yank that rotten tooth and be done with it... they'll even give you a better tooth in it's place.. all for the price of a few dollars.
@MrsKitty: I went to therapy last year before my DD was born (with DH for a little while-see above), and had a few sessions alone. My best friend of 15 years deleted me on Facebook (oh, look, there's that FB issue again), b/c she said I wasn't calling her (she never called me either), and she needed people in her life that were there for her. Mind you, I helped this girl move away from her boyfriend in the middle of the night and drove her to work near daily. I couldnt' have been anymore "there" for her if we were Siamese twins.
I told the therapist about this and explained that I felt that what she said was untrue.
The therapist said two things:
1.) FB is very much a place where people send subtle but very loaded messages.
2.) Just b/c your best friend says those things, doesn't make it true.
This gave me the peace I needed to move on. She can say what she wants, but it doesn't bother me, b/c I know it's not true. It didn't save my life, but it did prevent me from engaging said best friend anymore, and it stopped me from feeling guilty about something that I don't think happened in the first place. I was very surprised at how much it helped.
Quote from: Laurie on January 18, 2011, 01:07:13 PM
Yes I tried one when I found myself to be a little anxious about my son's eventual deployment.. Thanks to her I found out that I was dehydrated and my name is really Debbie, not Laurie. I think it's more helpful and easier to find a good dentist :)... at least they can yank that rotten tooth and be done with it... they'll even give you a better tooth in it's place.. all for the price of a few dollars.
LOL.
The following therapist got me through a whole year of grieving when my first husband went off with someone else:
http://www.amazon.com/Pearl-Janis-Joplin/dp/B00000K2VZ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295384929&sr=8-1
A whole year of therapy for $8.96.
Hey, "Deb", how 'ya doin'?
Yes MK and Holliberri.. I think if you are fortunate enough to find a 'good' therapist, not the water drinking lady I had.. they can make a world of difference. I just wanted someone to tell me that it was ok to be anxious, concerned and a little sad.. but I already knew that.
Holliberri, you already knew that you did not own any portion of guilt for not being there for your friend... while it may speed up the final process, don't you think you would have gotten there by yourself eventually?
I don't know how you suggest to someone such as LL's future dil or son that they need any form of therapy without suggesting that they have irrational issues. I'd love to see my own dil the GPA 4.0 Psychology Major seek some sort of counseling as I think her dependency on her FOO is slightly peculiar. But I just can't think of any way that I could make that suggestion without it being taken as an insult. :) I'm listening
Quote from: seasage on January 18, 2011, 01:28:37 PM
Quote from: Laurie on January 18, 2011, 01:07:13 PM
Yes I tried one when I found myself to be a little anxious about my son's eventual deployment.. Thanks to her I found out that I was dehydrated and my name is really Debbie, not Laurie. I think it's more helpful and easier to find a good dentist :)... at least they can yank that rotten tooth and be done with it... they'll even give you a better tooth in it's place.. all for the price of a few dollars.
LOL.
The following therapist got me through a whole year of grieving when my first husband went off with someone else:
http://www.amazon.com/Pearl-Janis-Joplin/dp/B00000K2VZ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295384929&sr=8-1
A whole year of therapy for $8.96.
OMG tell me you love vinegar now and I'll know I've found my long lost sister
Quote from: luise.volta on January 18, 2011, 01:32:15 PM
Hey, "Deb", how 'ya doin'?
I came to the conclusion that I hate the name Debbie / Deb... it started when I was in high school... I was a twirler lol.. honest.. we wore jackets that said Spartan Deb (really what is a deb)... all of us wore them and we were all called Deb or Debbie by people everywhere we went.. There were 15 of us.. lol what would the chances be.
Later I got a job and this one guy would call me Debbie... I didn't even have a friend by that name... then the therapist .. that was the last straw lol... I think I was a little touchy about it.
@Laurie/Deb-
I don't think one can safely tell someone they "need therapy" if you're already in a bad place in the relationship. But, if I were having a big problem with someone, my strategy would be to go to therapy myself. Then after I had some good coping strategies, I would say to the person I was having the trouble with:
"I've been seeing a therapist lately to help me become a healthier and happier person. One area that I wanted to work on in therapy was our relationship and how we relate to one another. I've worked on this a little bit with the therapist, but I think it would be really helpful to me if you could come in for a session or two with me to discuss our relationship and some of the challenges we've had. I think getting your perspective would really help me and I think it might also be helpful to you. Is this something you'd be open to doing?"
That's how I would approach it.
Much more tactful then I would have possibly come up with.... What do you think LL do you see this as ever being a probability in your relationship with your son and fdil
I think if I suggested a therapist to my DIL I think that would be the final straw .The country where I live only refer to therapists when there is a serious psychological problem and not for counsel .Even a counsellor would be an insult .
Different rules for different countries ,but the same DIL problems .
My DH said to avoid contact with either DIL and DS .I think he feels DS has no loyalty to his Mom .He reckons my DIL has been very disrespectful towards me and doesn't warrant any more contact .
More space I think is once more needed .
I feel very cool and calm when I detach myself from the situation ,but the moment I think about it all
I go into knots once more .
What is this telling me I wonder . More Space !
LL-I am not suggesting that you tell your DIL to go to a therapist. I am suggesting that you see a therapist. Once you make some progress there, you might feel like you could invite her to a session (this would be waaaay down the line--maybe in several months). But, I do think it is an important thing for YOU to do to sort out your feelings and hopefully get some peace with this.
Quote from: MrsKitty on January 18, 2011, 02:47:22 PM
But, I do think it is an important thing for YOU to do to sort out your feelings and hopefully get some peace with this.
Peace. Yes, peace. I finally found peace after four months of waking up with tears in my eyes. This brings me peace:
http://www.amazon.com/Lux-Aurumque-Alexander-Grechaninov/dp/B000NVIXNW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295391120&sr=8-1
It also helped me when my younger brother died of cancer last fall.
@Laurie. I am not sure of I would've gotten there. It wasn't the first time it happened, and I kept calling my friend to fix things. I needed to hear that nothing needed to be fixed.
I found therapy more effective when DH was there; I got less validation and we practiced communication. The therapist had an easier time issue spotting when we both went. So, I would have no problem inviting someone along with me if I truly wanted our relationship to benefit.
Hi LL! Please No, do not suggest going to any type of counseling with DIL--that is only going to open up another can of worms that you do not want.....
I also do not believe that you owe her an apology.....You have bent over backwards trying to welcome her into the family etc, trying to make her feel comfortable...you have done all that you can do and have done so wisely.
In my humble opinion I would go and see her "face to face," smile :) and just start talking and then I would ask her while you are face to face...."Please refresh my memory as to why I owe you an apology for I really do not know what I have said or done." Which, is an honest and open question... Then let her throw the ball and go from there....
Sometimes, that is the problem with computers, emails, FB etc.....type has NO tone...and if someone is in a bad mood and reads something that stirkes them wrong--the defenses go up, misunderstandings occur, they have taken it personally and all hell can break loose.........unfortunate, but true.
As I mentioned LL this is just my humble opinion for what ever it is worth......and I wish you the best.....
Hang in there....Peace and Hugs, Faith
My thanks to you all .
I feel before any contact can be made in any form ,I need to be stronger .I am not a weepy person
but any kind of confrontation makes me weep buckets .The thought of not seeing my GD gets me very upset .
Is there a boot camp to toughen up MIL's . 'cos I need one ! :-\
Quote from: lancaster lady on January 18, 2011, 03:17:08 PM
My thanks to you all .
I feel before any contact can be made in any form ,I need to be stronger .I am not a weepy person
but any kind of confrontation makes me weep buckets .The thought of not seeing my GD gets me very upset .
Is there a boot camp to toughen up MIL's . 'cos I need one ! :-\
Believe me, I know how you feel, and what you don't understand is your fear of her, you do fear her, b/c you know she holds the key to having a family...and it makes you so angry b/c your not in control...you need time...and I totally understand....I was there...right now you can't see past your own hurt and frustrations and you fear that she might start yelling at you, and if she does, you have to be strong, calm and ready.
I once did that with my own DIL, a long long time ago, and she started yelling at me, and I thought she was yelling and rejecting me....what she was doing was sounding off her own fears, feelings of rejection and hurt...I was so stunned that she started yelling at me, that all I could do was crumble and cry, instad of holding composure and saying, "What was it I did to hurt you...?" But you must be ready for it, so that you don't loose it and say words you don't mean out of hurt, you must be able to understand and see her point of view, and be able to say, "ok, geeze, I didn't know you felt like that...let her get it off her chest, remembering a lot of the reason she is yelling is that she is just as scared as you are, and it's the only way she knows how to defend herself....but believe me, she fears you just as much as you fear her.
LL, I understand your feelings, and hope you can work thru this...and to suggest counseling, right now, to her, well, I fear she would take it as if you were saying, "Something is wrong with you, instead of understanding it's your plea to resolve this with a mediator so that it doesn't get out of hand. Follow your heart...and use this time to grow and build your confidence, so that when the time comes, you can forgive and move forward...
the one thing that made me so darn proud of my DIL, was, when she asked me a few questions, just a few, we didn't get into , well, you did this or that...but I answered her questions as honestly as I could, and she said, "I'm ok with that"....lets move on...and let me tell you, I was so scared, root canal would have been easier....LOL
and I don't think it's a matter of being tough, what it's all about is forgivness on both your parts and then moving on, letting the past die, and going forward together into the future, understanding each other...the past is gone...it's over, can't fix it or change it, all we can do is move forward, trying to understand how we can make it better..
Love ya hun
Creme
Quote from: lancaster lady on January 18, 2011, 03:17:08 PM
My thanks to you all .
I feel before any contact can be made in any form ,I need to be stronger .I am not a weepy person
but any kind of confrontation makes me weep buckets .The thought of not seeing my GD gets me very upset .
Is there a boot camp to toughen up MIL's . 'cos I need one ! :-\
Time.
With every day that passes your pain will lessen. Perhaps you could give yourself a time limit within which to cry, shout, stomp it out. I suggest you plan a time when you can be alone for this, LOL. When the time is up, whether it's an hour or a day or a week, you are done and it's time to move on. Not to forget/cutoff forever those you love, just to take care of yourself for awhile.
Have some plans set before you start "purging" regarding some activities to be done with others, hopefully not people who know the intimate details of your issues with DS & DIL so you're not asked questions about them; the idea is to get away from focusing on DS, DIL, GC, & your sadness. How about joining a book or knitting club? Plan lunch out and a stroll through a botanical garden with friends from work? Sign up for a yoga class or grab some friends and get mani/pedi/facials? Superficial, light and fun stuff for now.
Next step - community service. Find people who will appreciate your attention and your kind, giving nature. Babies need to be rocked, food needs to be cooked, kids need to read to...you get the idea.
Before long you will have found your center again. Who knows what the future holds?
XThe awful thing about this creme is I think she has achieved exactly what she attempted to do . I feel she wanted to alienate his family so they wouldn't want any contact whatsoever ! To hear my own son.say you will see your gd when you have made things up with dil is like a.knife through my heart . He has started to think like her. Even your kind words pen bring tears .....even to make up with this dil I feel she would never let me be close to my gd .that's the sort of person she is .....do I want the crumbs she throws me ? At this moment ....not.sure ....time is a healer I know .I am a very busy lady but in those quiet times its hard .....
LL - Like you I feel that my dil has tried to drive a wedge simply for convenience. I've seen it escalating over the past year and I told my dh that I had a feeling that it was being done in preparation of a grandchild. If she pushes until we become angry then she can turn to the world and declare that we don't like her, and it will justify every action she has taken. My husband said that he doesn't think that our dil is that smart or conniving to carry through a long term plan formed at nothing more then an alienation of our son's FOO.
This past Christmas, once again she injected her family at every turn. DIL prevented our family gathering because as she called it they had a surprise multi hour lunch with her family (parents, aunts, uncles, cousins..etc) problem was.. my son was the only one surprised.. she had been in on the planning of this lunch knowing darn well that we were here waiting on them and had dinner plans with our extended family, plans that they had approved and accepted an invitation to. Since we had not seen our son since his last deployment and only had one day with him before that big event, this was a special time for all. I'd like to add that they had spent 1.5 days before their cruise with her family, and were scheduled to spend 1.5 days here after the cruise. I will go to my grave knowing that it was deliberate... of course by time my son called he said that they were now hours behind in their schedule and said that they would not be hungry but asked if we could hold up plans until they got here to at least participate. This is where I leaned on my boundaries, and the answer was No, I'm sorry we can not do that. I had 10 hungry people who had been patiently waiting and we proceeded with our dinner plans. I did not owe them an explanation, and I was not going to supply one. I did not allow any of this to anger me and we proceeded to have a great time without the guest of honor.
While there are times when situations and disagreements simply happen... I do believe that there are some young ladies out there that are willing to hurt anyone in order to get what they want and are hell bent on eliminating anything in their path. Is my DIL one of those? I think that she has systematically jacked with us hoping to insight anger, hoping that we would be the ones to lash out, thus allowing her to cry foul. We are about to find out as my son just called me on Skype to announce that she is six weeks pregnant. I think they both have the ability to be excellent parents... We'll find out if I'm correct on my thoughts and feelings... I certain hope not, time will tell.
Quote from: Laurie on January 18, 2011, 07:21:59 PM
My husband said that he doesn't think that our dil is that smart or conniving to carry through a long term plan formed at nothing more then an alienation of our son's FOO.
After reading your story, the word selfish comes to mind. When did our DILs lose the value of the words commitment and prior engagement? And wouldn't it be wonderful if our DSs would just say to them, "OK, you may stay here, but I gave my word and people are waiting for me, so I'm leaving now".
Congratulations on the impending GC, Laurie!
Laurie, this is how a lot of our celebrations go, too. DILs FOO, because of their tradition, eats a big holiday meal at noon. Our tradition was always to eat around 2 pm but we've switched to 6 pm to accomodate them. After a huge feed from 12 - 3 or so, DS & DIL make their way to us, full and tired. When I suggested having our holiday celebration on a different day they insisted it would be inconvenient for them to take two days away from their busy lives. I'm not sure we'll continue to accomodate them in the future - I think I may invite them for the time we prefer. If they accept our invitation first, I'd hope they'd have the decency to honor it no matter what DIL's FOO does. Sometimes I'd like our family to come first.
Seasage, I agree that sometimes it does seem to be selfishness. Thank goodness not all DILs operate that way. And yes, it would be wonderful if all our DSs could speak up.
Quote from: seasage on January 18, 2011, 07:48:29 PM
Quote from: Laurie on January 18, 2011, 07:21:59 PM
My husband said that he doesn't think that our dil is that smart or conniving to carry through a long term plan formed at nothing more then an alienation of our son's FOO.
After reading your story, the word selfish comes to mind. When did our DILs lose the value of the words commitment and prior engagement? And wouldn't it be wonderful if our DSs would just say to them, "OK, you may stay here, but I gave my word and people are waiting for me, so I'm leaving now".
It was incredibly selfish, but she has always had that tendency. I was thinking about the times I've spent with her and I don't know what to call it.. she is never grateful for anything someone does for her as well.. I had her and my own dd one day and I said hey what about pedicures.. everyone was excited at the spur of a moment pedicure.. whoo hooo who wouldn't be.. she complained half they way home about the color she had picked out and the design she had put on her toes... We stopped at Starbucks, and I had to listen to her complain for 10 minutes about how she didn't like her drink and she tossed it.. I mean it's not like I picked her drink.. I just paid for it :). I'm sure I rolled my eyes, squinted or did whatever I do when irritated.. but after this went on and on my dd finally pipes up with .. wow mom, thanks that was wonderful and such a nice surprise. DIL did finally say yeah it was nice, thanks. lol... I won't even mention what went through my mind.
I must have had abusive parents because I knew better then to display this type of behavior by time I was 6.. I would have had the snot slapped out of me lol.
Thanks Pen.. I'm happy that the kids are following their dreams... and I'm sure that if my dil is unwilling to put anyone or anything above her wants right now she'll be forced into changing with a baby. DIL is in her first year of teaching so not sure how that will work out for them.. remember this is the girl who doesn't like the third graders touching her :) I honestly would not be surprised if her parents announce that they are going to move to NM to be near the kids, they are really that mesmerized by her every action.
My son did apologize for screwing up dinner.. I said no we had dinner you did not interfere and that was when he said that it was this huge surprise. The only thing I asked was if DIL was surprised and he said no, not in the least and he felt as tho she lied to him in a sense. And she had.. but that is there issue to work on.. I don't want to even hear about it.
Quote from: Laurie on January 18, 2011, 08:10:47 PM
.. but after this went on and on my dd finally pipes up with .. wow mom, thanks that was wonderful and such a nice surprise. DIL did finally say yeah it was nice, thanks. lol... I won't even mention what went through my mind.
I must have had abusive parents because I knew better then to display this type of behavior by time I was 6.. I would have had the snot slapped out of me lol.
Your dd would fit right in with our family. My own dd has salvaged many a stressful situation with similar actions. You wouldn't think of acting this way, your dd wouldn't, my dd wouldn't, nor would I. Makes you wonder about DIL's parents, doesn't it?
Then again, we are all here at WW because we have been served the dirty plates. As I think about the goodness and grace of my own dd, I am just going to turn my back on the mess at the other end of the table.
Quote from: seasage on January 18, 2011, 08:45:32 PM
You wouldn't think of acting this way, your dd wouldn't, my dd wouldn't, nor would I. Makes you wonder about DIL's parents, doesn't it?
Seasage, that's what my DH said many times when DIL was pulling her shenanigans before the big (positive) turn around: "Who raised her?"
Laurie, your DIL may be OK when the icky stuff is coming out of her own child. The "holding back the truth" stuff is a different matter...good for you for going ahead with your plans. I feel for your DS.
Laurie,
I have been wondering up till now how your time with your son was over christmas. I'm impressed that
you were able to go forward and and have a great time when DIL sidetracked the guest of honor and also not be angered.
I'd like to understand better your thoughts about:
"I do believe that there are some young ladies out there that are willing to hurt anyone in order to get what they want and are hell bent on eliminating anything in their path"
it doesn't have to be right now, but at some point. You've talked about this in a couple of ways and it seems quite relevant
for me, yet i'm a bit fuzzy in my cognitions ;- ). Also, sometime, would like to know more about the boundaries you have established to keep your balance that you mentioned, and I don't mean just at Christmas Dinner
I think this has been a very powerful discussion between MIL's and DIL's Very informative, interesting, even surprising at times.
Creme: "and I don't think it's a matter of being tough, what it's all about is forgivness on both your parts and then moving on, letting the past die, and going forward together into the future, understanding each other...the past is gone...it's over, can't fix it or change it, all we can do is move forward, trying to understand how we can make it better.."
[/quote]
I think that is so true and so difficult to do. It just takes time. In this day and age with instant gratification and the busy lifestyle we lead we probably underestimate the fact that the time factor is not measurable. Things do not get fixed in a short time, we need to allocate the time it takes and that is unpredictable. It may be tomorrow, it may be way down the line. But the past is definitely gone and the things we said have been said. They can fester and make our future life a misery or they can be forgiven and forgotten and we can move on. I realise that this is a lot easier said than done and it needs a lot of work and commitment, but it is possible.
I'm not sure whether counselling will always help. Of course it can be a support but when all's been said and done the commitment to move on has to come from within - and most of us, in the fullness of time can achieve this. (Not sure whether I'm speaking out of turn here, but I do feel that in our culture we are seeking professional help far too early.)
To LL and all the other women contributing to this site, I thank you for your openness. It's great to know that I'm not alone in this very unusual situation. I think I'm a good wife and friend but I'm not so sure about being a good MIL.
Laurie, I am sorry to read about your DIL, the person whom she is....Your gesture and kindness regarding the pedicure was a fun thing to do and she did not appreciate this--how sad... I doubt I would ever offer something like that again...we live and learn dont we?
Faith...
I think when you've been treated badly while showing an interest in someone else, that any sane person would rethink their original intentions. Because I was once chewed out quite nastily by some old fart who had one leg and was on a mobile weapon at the grocery store, when I offered to reach something that he was throwing boxes at to knock off the shelf, I don't tend to offer help as freely to other one legged old people. Sadly it expanded and in my mind it now consumes most all older folks.
The part that floors me with people is... My dil is selfish, it's like everyday is her wedding day :) She's never quite taken off the tiara and donned the work gloves. How do people such as this maintain friendships? I know my son is her best friend, and she his.. that's great, that's the way it should be... but how do these people function outside their own bedrooms is what I have a hard time understanding.
LL's dil...does she have many friends outside of her bf/babies dad.. or does their world began to shrink and they have to throw up a fortress as an attempt to maintain and control the last holdouts in their lives?
Quote from: Faithlooksup on January 19, 2011, 06:17:27 AM
Laurie, I am sorry to read about your DIL, the person whom she is....Your gesture and kindness regarding the pedicure was a fun thing to do and she did not appreciate this--how sad... I doubt I would ever offer something like that again...we live and learn dont we?
Faith...
It's not that she did not appreciate a gesture... it was more that she couldn't even see that it was a gesture.. maybe small but a gesture just the same. It's a sad statement when people can not recognize when someone has stepped up to show kindness, or supplied their time and resources. This isn't just the case with my dil, this is a lot of people in todays world. From my own observations, this is more of an issue with females then males... females both young and old, I'm not attacking the 30 and under group. Start noticing, if you happen to hold the door at a restaurant how often will a female pass through and not acknowledge.. yet a man typically will... it just appears that this princess mode has been accepted as the norm.
Quote from: Laurie on January 19, 2011, 07:30:20 AM
Start noticing, if you happen to hold the door at a restaurant how often will a female pass through and not acknowledge.. yet a man typically will... it just appears that this princess mode has been accepted as the norm.
You're on to something here. As a six-footer, I open a lot of doors for people. And when they don't say thank you? I always say "You're welcome" anyway, hoping that someday one of them will get the hint.
I witnessed an occurence of this just the other day at our mall. A woman with twins in a stroller with a toddler hand in hand. The princess opened the door for herself and walked out while the male she was with opened the door for this woman and helped her in with the stroller....
My question is how was this princess mode born???? The parents?? friends, school what then.? And, the only friends they have is what their personification mirrors~~more selfish friends.....They don't see beyond their noses...and they simply do not see nor care what people think of them...for dont you know...there is nothing wrong with them...? Yeah Right!
And Seasage~~~I do the exact same thing when someone cant say Thank You...And I say it Loud and Clear with a smile on my face...
I don't know about the average person but I do know with my DIL it is her parents, and grandparents.. I've witnessed it to many times.. once we invited her parents to a cookout.. they were so lovely coming in did all the right things.. bottle of wine.. houseplant.. we exchanged greetings and then that was the last thing they said to us in our own home, until goodbye.. the rest of the evening was spent one on each side of the daughter looking at her computer with pictures she had taken of her dogs..conversing only with her and my son.. my dil would say to her husband.. please come sit and tell Mom and Daddy about what the dog was doing on this picture etc. I finally walked up and said to my son that he as well had other guest to attend to and that they would need to excuse him. I grabbed him and asked "are they always that #*&#$#$ rude? The answer I'm afraid is that they don't see it as rude.. they love their daughter. BTW-they even ate their plate of food while attached to their daughters side.
Over Christmas when everyone is at their very best :) my daughter kinda got caught holding the door for more people then she intended.. it was like oh the door is open let's all go through while she stands there...she said that only the first person acknowledged her and then the slew of women that followed treated her as if she was invisible.. unfortunately she was invisible.. I saw her mouthing, and she said that she began saying.. you're welcome... you're welcome... she might as well have been a mime. But I guess it's the aggressive softball player in her.. the one that lived for physical contact.. she tripped the last girl coming out, which of course tossed that girl into the back of her girlfriend, then she turned and walked in. I was wrong.. I'll admit it.. I gave her a high 5, so did the waiter who was waiting to take us to our table.
Quote from: Laurie on January 19, 2011, 08:10:26 AM
Over Christmas when everyone is at their very best :) my daughter kinda got caught holding the door for more people then she intended.. it was like oh the door is open let's all go through while she stands there...she said that only the first person acknowledged her and then the slew of women that followed treated her as if she was invisible.. unfortunately she was invisible.. I saw her mouthing, and she said that she began saying.. you're welcome... you're welcome... she might as well have been a mime. But I guess it's the aggressive softball player in her.. the one that lived for physical contact.. she tripped the last girl coming out, which of course tossed that girl into the back of her girlfriend, then she turned and walked in. I was wrong.. I'll admit it.. I gave her a high 5, so did the waiter who was waiting to take us to our table.
THANK YOU for that wonderful story. This belly-laugh will easily take me through today and probably even a few more. You just added 7 weeks to my life!
My dd also lives for physical contact - this year she is cross-training by taking up boxing. I am going to ask her if she would have performed the final maneuver.
Ahh, the princess rears her pretty little head. It's hard for me to relate; I wasn't cherished or put on a pedestal as a child or young adult, so I have no idea how one becomes entitled. I suspect some people are just born that way and if their FOO/friends indulge them, a princess is created.
Like tapeworms or anorexia, I'd like to be afflicted with a little of the princess disease, LOL. I tend to slide into being overly grateful for every little crumb.
Great story, Laurie. The sad thing is that more than likely none of them learned the lesson or even realized what was going on around them.
You're right Pen... they were probably clueless..and clueless they will stay, and it's only because they choose this way of thinking for themselves. For some reason, many view this as having a leg up in society.
That's our DIL, I think. She considers us losers because we aren't selfish or greedy. She only has respect for people who are ostentatious. My SM is the same.
Quote from: Pen on January 19, 2011, 09:02:30 AM
That's our DIL, I think. She considers us losers because we aren't selfish or greedy. She only has respect for people who are ostentatious. My SM is the same.
Well isn't Royalty always considered snooty? It's the dumb stupid pathetic peasants who are there to serve others?
Quote from: seasage on January 19, 2011, 08:20:57 AM
My dd also lives for physical contact - this year she is cross-training by taking up boxing. I am going to ask her if she would have performed the final maneuver.
I asked.
Funny you ask, because a similar thing happened to me this year. As I was walking out of the Chapel after the Christmas Eve service I stopped to wait for you (I thought you were still inside) and ended up holding the door for a stream of people. Most all of them said thank you.
Even had they not said thank you, I wouldn't have tripped anyone (and I like to think you wouldn't high-five someone who does). But even more than that I suspect those people who didn't acknowledge the girl holding the door just didn't notice her. They weren't being rude, they were just distracted. And I don't think inattention deserves rudeness in return.
Holding the door is a nice thing to do, and I think those who do should feel good about it whether or not they get thanked.
I have always suspected that my dd is a lot classier than I am. This proves it. Nevertheless, a good belly laugh, plus 7 additional weeks of life: nothing to be sneezed at.
I'll send my dd to her for lessons. I think there comes a time when people.. anyone just finally says enough. While I've threatened to flatten all the tires on those mobile weapons Walmart hands out to anyone with an expired drivers licenses.. I doubt that I would. But I did once 'accidently' set a road block when I had confronted the same wreckless driver on multiple isles..
Laurie :
Re your question about DIL's friends ?
She surrounds herself with her group of giggling girls ..entourage ?
They will support her till the ends of the earth ,while my son is left with no one !
She has brainwashed him into thinking she has more right over their daughter than him !
I would like to know where she bought the voodoo drug she has given him ! My heart goes out to him in this struggle ,he is devoted to her yet loves his family .
My congrats to you on your news and pray that you will not have to go through what I am .Who knows how to play
this MIL/Grandmother game .I would like a set of rules if there is one because someone aint playing fair !
this game goes on I'm afraid but I'm getting wary of it .maybe I should introduce my own board game !
thanking the ladies of WWU for their love and support ..x
LL, it's nonsensical and as Luise says there's no use trying to make sense out of these situations. I'm so sorry you have to go through this. Here's hoping your DS decides to change the rules and speak up for himself.
I really like your dd Laurie! No lessons needed....don't change her for the world! I do think the princess syndrome does fit some of our DILs. I do know mine comes by it honestly, from her upbringing. And her selfish ways as well. I will tell you a story about her and her Mother. My DIL was a great softball player. I mean...really, really great. Her Mother spent tons of money on lessons with batting coaches and such for her, all during High School, because she had such talent at the sport. She received a College scholarship to play ball as well. Well, now I played softball (not as good as her) and many other sports. And anyone that plays sports knows that you have to pay dues. I sat on the bench my Freshman and Sophomore year and lugged equipment every day. That was normal for every one. You had to earn the right to play and when we became Juniors and Seniors, the new Freshmen and Sophomores lugged equipment and warmed the bench. I lived in a big city and it was a big school. DIL was from a very small town, where they barely had enough girls to play, so she played the entire 4 years. No sitting on the bench for any of them.
When she went to the College, they made her sit on the bench. She was furious. Her and her Mother both constantly complained about how much better she was than the other girls. The Mother wrote letters to the school. Now, nevermind that all the Freshmen were sitting on the bench. Nevermind that she had the opportunity to get a great education for free. Nevermind that she got to travel all over the place. Her Mother traveled everywhere that the team did. Her next year, she was still sitting on the bench and she was angry. She saw some playing time when they would get way ahead (normal) but her Mother argued with the Coach and Dean and everything. They made it to the World Series in Florida and played all week. They got to the final game and were losing terribly. The final inning, the Coach told my DIL and some of the other younger players, they could go in. Now, I would have been thrilled...winning or losing to be able to say I played in the final game of the World Series. What did my DIL do, told the Coach if she wasn't good enough to play when they were winning, she wasn't good enough to play when they were losing. Walked out of the dugout to where her Mother was sitting, and left.
She quit that college the next week and enrolled in another one, that she is paying for. At the same time, my Son and her got engaged and were to get married in the fall. Two weeks before the wedding, her Mother gave her a credit card bill for over $50,000 dollars that she had used for the last 6 years to travel with to her daughter's ballgames! Told her that she had the bill because of her, and now it was hers to pay off! DIL agreed and took on the bill.
Now, the story I got from them was totally different. She told me she quit because the Coach was always being mean to her, and that her knees were giving out. She said the Coach got mad at her because the doctor said she needed to take a couple of weeks off and after that, picked on her constantly. What she didn't know, was one of her assistant coaches was my old softball coach years ago and that she and I had remained in contact as adults. The entire time she was telling me this story of hers, I just listened and nodded....never said a word. To this day...she doesn't know I know the truth. I very much see the exact same self-centeredness out of her Mother.
And I will say this too....I keep seeing some common things about the DILs that some of us are having trouble with. Mine has no friends. She never had many in school, and doesn't have any close ones now. Her Maid of Honor was a co-worker she had known for 6 months, and they never hung out after work. Mine also slowly edged my DS away from his. He had tons of friends, and now does not see any of them. My DS does not go anywhere without her, or on the rare occasion he does, she calls 20 times. Is it just me or am I starting to see a pattern here on some of our DILs that we are having trouble with?
But then LL says her's has an entourage....so maybe I am just reading more into this.
Quote from: Laurie on January 19, 2011, 09:58:39 AM
I'll send my dd to her for lessons. I think there comes a time when people.. anyone just finally says enough. While I've threatened to flatten all the tires on those mobile weapons Walmart hands out to anyone with an expired drivers licenses.. I doubt that I would. But I did once 'accidently' set a road block when I had confronted the same wreckless driver on multiple isles..
Regarding reckless riders, some friends lived down the street from a loud-mouthed young guy who would roll back and forth in his hand-powered wheelchair shouting filthy insults at people. The neighbors finally had enough and placed doggie doo in a line across the entire street on each side of his house. His rolling tirades were squelched for awhile.
Pooh, the lack of friendships is troubling. I wouldn't consider an entourage as being true, meaningful friendship no matter how the TV show portrays it, LOL. My DIL encouraged DS to break off from his old friends after the wedding & she broke off from hers too, saying they weren't "going anywhere in life." She did the calling/texting constantly when DS was out of her sight, too.
Lately DS has started communicating with his old friends again, and DIL is being nicer to them as well. She has picked up on one old friendship herself which is good.
That is great Pen. And I know it's not perfect, but you and her are starting to get along better too. So maybe there is something to this.
When you toss in the prima donna athlete aspect it really starts to get bad. I use to witness parents who were being literally abused by their star athlete children. What was once great lessons learned from sports now can include lessons of entitlement and superiority.
My dd played competitive ball most of her life, and she was good.. a little arrogant with a bat in her hand but at 5'2", she had the heart of a giant on the field. As a high school freshman she was the starting catcher on Varsity, she led the district in hitting, base steals etc. Her name was mentioned daily when updates were given at school and her face was overly used in the newspaper.. and it all went straight to her head. She could be with a group of girls who were all being scolded for their choice of shirts, but my dd was ALLOWED to be the exception. She and a group were caught skipping one class.. all the kids were sent to the office, where she was excused because you can't punish the star catcher. She was becoming more impressed with herself and enjoying the different set of rules. This was all within a one month time frame.
I don't know what changed it, whether she lost a friendship, or I'd like to think it was possibly something her parents said to her about regaining focus.. I honestly believe that Colby Bryant the basketball player who was accused of rape had the most influence. She told me how incredibly disgusted she was by the fact that an athlete's ability and game would be placed above actions as hideous as rape. I think it sickened her and for a moment I think she saw a glimpse of herself... I never again had a problem with her.
Not everyone gets that eye opener ... but for those who do, I think it can make them a better person in the long run.
Quote from: Pen on January 19, 2011, 10:41:57 AM
Quote from: Laurie on January 19, 2011, 09:58:39 AM
I'll send my dd to her for lessons. I think there comes a time when people.. anyone just finally says enough. While I've threatened to flatten all the tires on those mobile weapons Walmart hands out to anyone with an expired drivers licenses.. I doubt that I would. But I did once 'accidently' set a road block when I had confronted the same wreckless driver on multiple isles..
Regarding reckless riders, some friends lived down the street from a loud-mouthed young guy who would roll back and forth in his hand-powered wheelchair shouting filthy insults at people. The neighbors finally had enough and placed doggie doo in a line across the entire street on each side of his house. His rolling tirades were squelched for awhile.
LOL.. I love it
Oh, Lordy, when I was in a motorized chair a year ago, trying to take care of Val...I was a one-woman demolition derby in my apartment! I crashed into door frames and partially ripped off cupboard doors. I even moved the stacked washer/dryer! I went to a meeting (only once, they didn't invite me back) where I hit the table everyone was sitting at and sent coffee cups flying...Oh, Lordy!
Quote from: luise.volta on January 19, 2011, 12:06:05 PM
Oh, Lordy, when I was in a motorized chair a year ago, trying to take care of Val...I was a one-woman demolition derby in my apartment! I crashed into door frames and partially ripped off cupboard doors. I even moved the stacked washer/dryer! I went to a meeting (only once, they didn't invite me back) where I hit the table everyone was sitting at and sent coffee cups flying...Oh, Lordy!
Did you ever find dog poop at your apartment threshold? If so...blame Pen
Oh, foolish me! I blamed my dog!
Wait! You are telling me that those things are not supposed to be used as battering rams? Uh oh.....
Quote from: Pooh on January 20, 2011, 06:51:38 AM
Wait! You are telling me that those things are not supposed to be used as battering rams? Uh oh.....
I thought of them as 'great equalizers' by time some of these people are done you're in need of a motorized chair yourself.
The only time I have ever been in one was 10 years ago when I tore my achilles and had a cast up to my thigh. We went to Walmart and I would use one....and I was a danger to society in it. Not on purpose, but I would catch steering towards people because I would be looking at something on a shelf. I have a whole issue with the "Look! Something Shiny!"
I think LL hit a nerve in a lot of us. My old mom would say that "if a person wants to hurt you or decieve you, they can and you cannot do anything about it." There are people that come into our circle that may not have started with bad intentions, but the relationship gets twisted somewhere.
Not everyone is going to love us. Trust your gut LL. I bet you are right on. My guess is you have a normal life, normal circles of friends/family. Sometimes, there are just people who don't belong in that circle.
Neece:
The thing is about my future DIL ,my DD never liked her !
I put it down to sibling jealousy/rivalry .However as the months have gone on she was absolutely right.
You are correct about my family circle .We are a friendly bunch and nothing like this has ever happened in our family
I have my own business and run a local art group so have a fairly good social life .If you read my thread I thought she would
be a wonderful addition to our family and to begin with all was well .
Looking back, it was when she realised she wanted my DS for her own . Maybe the things she did were unconciously done .but the over posessiveness once the GD arrived maybe signalled she knew what she was about .
So now my GD is being used as a bargaining tool and guess what ? I'm not playing !
I can see what this is doing to my DS and that it's hurting him and me . So I have backed off completely .I don't want to come between them any more .
Perhaps when all this has calmed down I will be allowed to see my GD again ,but I will not have her used like this .
My DIL /to be knows how much she is hurting me by forbidding me seeing her .she is showing her true self by doing this.
It's not a pretty picture ..!
It may not be a pretty picture.. but you are sure doing the right thing by not playing. Good for you, or is that bloody good for you?
Too bloody right Laurie !!
Hope I can last .....its painful ..! >:(
LL
I appreciate you standing up for yourself.
Hear hear! Best wishes, LL. I'm so glad you are feeling stronger. It sounds as if you've got quite a full and happy life aside from the DIL troubles. Good on ya!
Thankyou Pen .....Happy when I'm busy ...sad when the thoughts creep in ....:(
LL: Do not crawl. This is disrespectful to your spirit and it is demeaning. The goal of such an action is to publicly assign blame. Emotional black mail is deadly. Some of us have experienced this and have felt the mortal wounds that others only imagine.
Take your time. Take care of yourself. Be with people who love and support you. Your DS and DIL will find their own way too. Life will present itself to your grown children and perhaps they will see how infantile it is to take solitary moments and grow them into life long scripts for others.
What a sham of parenting these kids are making. It is no way to start or grow a loving family in the long term. Life isn't short...it is longgggg. Their wedge is a product of very shortsighted thinking. Long term relationships are built slowly and built on good foundations. If the kids don't get that, they soon will. This will not be easy for you dear. My heart just goes out to you. Trust your instincts and pray pray pray.
thank you Neece for your kind words ...The thing is I know my DS is desperate for this to be over and as my DIL doesn't speak to me ,I don't know what she is thinking or saying during all this .
I have found out on that dratted FB that my GD is not well ,how does that make me feel ? Awful !
I contacted my son to find out what's happening ,it's a viral infection .not serious . It just makes me feel the wedge is getting bigger .Did she tell my DS not to inform me ? I would hope not ,but I really don't know how she feels and just how far away she wants me .
What about the wedding ? Family are now asking me if they will receive an invite ...I told them perhaps I won't get one either !! How can I go if the bride won't speak to me ,and my GD will think I'm a stranger by then .This is 6 months away but arrangements have to be made .I haven't mentioned this to my DS yet ,he will be horrified to think I won't be there ,but the atmosphere will be dreadful !
I had a friend in the same situation and she apologised for everything to keep the peace ,only to be stood on over and over again .If I don't make a stand now ,what for the future?
I want things to move on ,This no man's land is not a nice place to be !
"Happy when I'm busy"...struck a chord with me. When we focus on painful issues, we feel the pain. But/and for most of us, there are other things going on in our lives at the same time. When we turn toward engrossing tasks or interactions...we get relief.
I know this is not courageous, but I would schedule a cruise and send my regrets. Dignity and self-respect also have a place in our lives. On second thought, maybe it is courageous.
LL, art is a great healer. I'm so happy for you that in this present awful situation you have creative interests to occupy your mind and being to help you get over the hurt. It will come right in the end. It has to.
I am always very impressed by those people who have dealt with and indeed overcome deep personal pain through engaging in some creative pursuit. I take a leaf out of their book and it has made my life better.
Thinking of you.
'Be not angry that you cannot make others as you wish them to be,
> since you cannot make yourself as you wish to be.' :)
> —Thomas a Kempis c.1420[/font]
Love your signature, Chem. Copying and pasting.
I was just wondering if these complex problems of DIL,S cannot have a simple solution especially when the husband is inbetween and does not want to take sides.
It seems the solution lies with the husband.
Perhaps if he refused to go to her family(His MIL) and refused her access to the GC --I mean really took a stand---to make the wife feel what it feels like to reject family perhaps the wife will wake up.
Husband:"I am not seeing your mother anymore and nor is gc"
Wife:"Oh you cant just do that"
Husband "No nor can you"
Sad how a wife can build up resentment in a marriage then blame MIL--Ofcourse it can be other way round
Just my 2cents worth.
Takes courage...
excellent thought catching up
Catching up : Unable to paste your post for some reason ..?!
Anyway your thoughts on role reversal re visits for MIL .
My DS was told by DIL this has nothing to do with you ,it's between me and your mother !
He wasn't allowed to discuss it with his siblings or with me !
So you see my DS does as he is told ! His brother told him to man up and control the situation ,his dutiful reply was ,it's nothing to do with me !
So you see for him to tell his partner anything ''masterful'' is totally out of the question !
He is not allowed out with his own child without the mother ,so the chances of a visit alone are out of the question .I would welcome them all with open arms .
what do you ladies think if I approach DIL with a view to a visit ,either me or her ?
I think if I wait for DS to intervene it will never happen ,but then he's not allowed !!!
Chelmsford : re art
I agree art is a wonderful to completely lose yourself , 3 or 4 hours gone in a flash of the brush !
However I like to have happy thoughts when I paint ,and your work reflects your frame of mind !
All the great masters reveal their own troubled minds in their masterpieces ......now where are my
brushes ...???
It's OK to paint the dark thoughts, too. Toss 'em if you don't want to keep them around. Venting through art is totally acceptable.
Quote from: catchingup on January 23, 2011, 08:50:06 AM
I was just wondering if these complex problems of DIL,S cannot have a simple solution especially when the husband is inbetween and does not want to take sides.
It seems the solution lies with the husband.
Perhaps if he refused to go to her family(His MIL) and refused her access to the GC --I mean really took a stand---to make the wife feel what it feels like to reject family perhaps the wife will wake up.
Husband:"I am not seeing your mother anymore and nor is gc"
Wife:"Oh you cant just do that"
Husband "No nor can you"
Sad how a wife can build up resentment in a marriage then blame MIL--Ofcourse it can be other way round
Just my 2cents worth.
Good post, Catchingup. As I've related too many times (sorry if I'm boring everyone), when my DS finally stood up to his DIL & her FOO things started to change. I don't believe we'd have any contact by now if he had not done so.
I agree Pen.. If the man in the relationship does not have enough respect for his own extended family, then how can he expect his wife to? A lot of it lies with his approach, if he is going to take the passive role then not only will his wife not respect his family but ultimately she may not respect him either as a equal partner in their own relationship.
After much thought and reading such wisdom, I also agree, it is the DS who holds the keys here and in most of these sad situations. I am just itching to send a note to my DS.
I wish I could trust him to respond, but my experience was that he would forward all my emails and texts to the DIL. Then, together, they would come up with a "poison pen" reply...often signing it from DIL. Even phone conversations were on speaker phone so they could confer in their responses to even simple things - not telling me of course. I got to learn this later as DIL was screaming at me on the phone.
It just feels really scarey for me...but, if you, LL, feel you can still reach your DS, what the heck! Go for it. Just armour up before hand, so the arrows cant penetrate the heart should they come your way. Good luck and God Bless! PS: After a while, the GC seem to be less real...more distant...too sad but better for the GP.
Hope you find your brushes soon!
Yes, you are right, we wouldn't have the many great painting by van Gogh for example, if he had had a sunny frame of mind or outlook on life, but just think about the wonderful 'suns' and 'sunflowers' he gave us, so we can cheer up! :)
If you could share your interest with DIL the situation would be a lot better. I am in the situation that I cannot share my interests (and as you probably gathered I do love art) with DIL, that's a shame because it would make our relationship so much easier going and enjoyable. Maybe I should try and engage with her interests more?
Best wishes
see: http://www.abcgallery.com/V/vangogh/vangogh21.html
Neece:
I found your posting very sad and my heart goes out to you .The thought of never seeing my GD again fills me with horror . The thought that my DIL knows this and refuses to let me see her also fills me with horror . It makes her very cruel and calculating and to allow people like her to treat us this way saddens my heart . does she get a great kick out of this ? Or does she toss and turn each night unable to sleep like me .?
Then my future DIL has won her battle ,to alienate all my DS holds dear ,his friends and family so I guess its the latter ..I have sent him a message via MSN messenger which I don't think she can access to ask him if he's happy with this situation we are in .I want him to get mad and yes stamp his authority on it , not roll over like an adoring puppy .
chelmsford :
I too love my art and it makes me happy ....not sure if I want my future DIL spoiling my happy place ..
for Christmas I made her a collage of my GD pictures ,from birth ,including myself .her and my DS .
Also as a pregnant mummy ,she loves lace ,I included that ,she loves hearts I made some of those .
Together they made a pretty picture ,I photographed it and sent it .Now I think she said it was nice ,
but has never asked for it or mentioned it so perhaps my GD would like it one day .
I will remain in her life no matter what obstacles are put in my way .I will send her gifts and cards so she will know who I am ,also the trust fund I have set up for her will come in handy one day .
I hope it will never come to to this but who knows what lies ahead .My DS might yet step up and sort
things out ........yes pigs might fly Luise ....:)
LL,
What a lovely idea to make a collage. Can I copy this?
Your love and commitment MUST come into its own one day. I sometimes think some aliens (just kidding) have taken our DS away but only for a while, they'll be returned to us one day. We must not give up hope that all will be well in the future. It is sad that GC grow up so quickly, they are so funny and original when they are small - and to miss all of that just because of an uncooperative (euphemism for evil) DIL is so so bad! It does reflect badly on her mothering skilsl though when she uses her children as pawns.
This theme is ancient. I'm reminded of the judgment of Solomon where 2 women claim to be the mother of a child. Solomon decrees that the child should be put into a circle and the woman who pulls the child out of the circle is the right mother. In the beginning both women pull the child. Very soon after, however, one of the women lets go of the child because she realises that she is hurting her own child. She rather not have it then hurt it. Solomon in his wisdom of course indentifies her as the real mum! Much wisdom in that! Even if DIl does not like you and that does happen - we are different personalities and we have to accept that, but to use her children as pawns is strictly speaking heartless!
My thought are with you, especially when I do my collage. No frills because I have 2 GS, but something appropriate for them too. (Footballs?)
Chelmsford : Good luck with the collage ,I had great fun making it .You could also feature their comic book heroes etc .
Dil news ....my DIL informed my son that she wishes I would speak to her about GD rather than go through DS ...so ladies an email has been sent ...I wait with baited breath ! :o
I have had a reply from DIL .....
Has anybody heard of Attachment Parenting ?
This is the reason I have been shut out from my GD ....!
The people that write this drivel should be shot ,they don't realise the damage it does to the poor
mother by keeping to the rules .Or to the rest of the family who are excluded !
whatever happened to mothering instinct ...? If you have time to spare ,you should google this subject ,
YES words once again fail me !!
http://www.attachmentparenting.org/parentingtopics/lifewithbabybalance.php
Not to start trouble, but I think she has attachment parenting completely wrong. It's quite common in the U.S...cosleeping, breastfeeding, skin to skin contact. But that does not equal eliminating contact with the outside word. So sorry.
Well now wait. That depends on what she meant by that. If she is following the Attachment Parenting theory, she could have meant she doesn't want the child away from her?
LL, do you know how she meant it?
And I am not taking her side. I'm with Holli that she doesn't fully understand what that theory is about...but do you think if she is only reading the parts that say a child will bond with the people they are with....she is only seeing that part of it?
Lancaster Lady - do you hear yourself?
Because your contempt for DIL & DS's parenting style is very obvious. Even if you just learned the name for it. Have you said anything negative in DIL's hearing about the sling, the family bed, extended breastfeeding, etc?
It sounds to me like you're an outspoken person. This can come off quite harshly to someone who's not used to it.
And I hate to say it, but I'm not buying the "that's how I am" line. Because if you liked ham, and you had a Jewish friend over for supper, you wouldn't say "Well, I like ham and if you're going to eat at my house, you'll have ham or nothing!" Or if one of your guests was deathly allergic to peanuts, you would scrub your kitchen to be sure there wasn't a speck of peanut residue. And you would be proud of it too, and rightly so. So in order to have a relationship with DIL, you're going to have to put your tongue in your pocket. And consider it a small price to pay in order to have a relationship with your DS and DGK's.
Is it contempt or just seeing an excuse for what it is?
Scoop, I understand what you're saying, but LL was being blocked from seeing her GC before she'd even heard of this type of parenting. Suddenly there comes a "reason." I don't get the feeling LL is contemptuous of the method, just the excuse for the cut off.
To put all this parenting stuff into perspective in a humorous way, please watch "Away We Go," a delightful little film starring Maya Rudolph and John Krasinski. Maggie Gyllenhall plays an over-the-top "attachment" parent to great hilarity if not a bit of sadness.
Either LL's DIL has completely misunderstood what attachment parenting is, or LL has misunderstood her DIL's response to her. LL--can you post the email?
Yeah, I do think I jumped to conclusions without knowing what was in the e-mail. Not that I need to read it, but I was just pointing out that attachment parenting is legitimate and many parents have successfully used it.
Is it my name you don't like Scoop ??
My GD is 12 months old and I have just learnt TODAY that the reason I haven't been allowed close to my GD is because of this way of parenting !!
Had I been told either on the birth or before the birth I could have perhaps read up on the subject .
I have never heard of this before !
Can you understand my feelings ?
If this way of parenting is to cut out the rest of the family ,is that wise ?
Of course I understand parent bonding ,I have three children of my own .
I suppose I am old fashioned in the way a family unit involved all the family .grannies aunties ,cousins etc .
My DIL has made her family a unit of three .
Quote :
Strenuous and Demanding on Parents. One criticism of attachment parenting is that it can be very strenuous and demanding on parents. Without a support network of helpful friends or family, the work of parenting can be difficult. Writer Judith Warner contends that a "culture of total motherhood", which she blames in part on attachment parenting, has led to an "age of anxiety" for mothers in modern American Society.
I feel my DIL is anxious unless she is with her Daughter 24/7 .
I agree with the above statement .
If she is anxious ,surely this will transfer to her daughter .
Having worked with small children ,they panic when they are left for the first time .Also the mother panics too as she has never left them ...ever !
Now that I know the method by which my GD is being brought up,I can research it more ,and hope to understand it .
We do not come from America and parental methods with titles sound strange to me .
Sure we have bonding /breast feeding /sleeping together etc its called Love where I come from and it includes grandparents .
I live and learn ....
Best not to post other people's email, please. It's a privacy issue I don't want to be hit with.
Attachment Parenting can mean different things to different people. My guess is that there are normal and there are pathological levels of attachment. Obsession and loss of "self" can surface if it gets out of balance.
Sorry, Luise. I feel like there is either a major disconnect with the DIL about what attachment parenting is, or there is a major disconnect in the communication between the DIL and LL--I am not sure which one it is.
It could be both.
Statement from my DIL today :
We have made a conscious choice to follow Attachment Parenting .We haven't included any family members in bringing up our daughter .
To tell me when my GD is a year old .
I wish this had been explained at an early stage....
Is she taking this method to extreme ?
Who knows ?
I shall read all I can on the subject and hope to understand it .
Scoop :
I have never questioned or criticised my DIL method of parenting ,she does an excellent job .
My only issue was being left out and excluded .
I guess I have to ask this now....Lol. Has she allowed the GC contact or spending time with her FOO?
I think this would clarify something for me. If they are not, then this is truly the parenting style they are choosing....right/wrong/extreme....it is not what you would choose, but it is their choice.
If they are...then its an excuse.
Pooh:
I am most confused by this parenting method ,I agree with parental bonding etc but the exclusion of all family .?
I think her FOO has babysat on two occasions ie. left alone with GD for a few hours .
Hmmm .....so maybe it is an excuse .
I will respect any method they chose ,it;s their child .
I only wish I had been informed before ,and why has no one mentioned it before ?
so I will build on this and hope to be considered as a secondary attachment ....is that another word
for grandparent ....?!?
In my book, GPs are a secondary attachment, nothing more. If you expect an attachment on par with a parent or sibling, you may be expecting too much.
holliberri :
I have seen my GD for 2 hours in three months ...I am like a passing stranger .
That would make passing strangers of my parents and ILs to my DD; they've seen my DD even less than that (and one set of parents lives very close by). And, I haven't tried to cut any of them off.
I would hope that my talking about the GPs and allowing DD to enjoy however little time she does have with them, teaches her to know who her GPs were and where she came from.
I was told when I returned to work and had to send DD to daycare that it is quality, not quantity that counts, and looking back on my own life, this has proven to be true. Just a thought. My DD spends more waking hours a week at daycare than she does with me, yet, somehow, I'm still her mother, and imagine...I still happen to be her primary attachment. She knows exactly who I am.
Some bonds can't be broken, so long as we nurture the time that we are given.
I hope to nurture what time I am given with my GD...and I hope I am allotted more time with her .
As I tried to explain to my DIL ,I don't want to be her mother or her father .
I just want time for us get to know each other as she grows ,and yes I would like a bond with my GD ,
Is this a bad thing ?
I worked with 3-5 year olds and its the best time ,the most fun ,and very rewarding .
hopefully we have turned the corner now I know what's happening , what I don't understand is why
when my DIL saw I was suffering rejection , she didn't reveal her plans for parenting .
At least we are talking again ,it's a start .
I think it is a start, and from what little time the FOO is getting, it sounds like she is keeping all contact with everyone minimal. I agree with you, that it would have been nice if your DS and DIL had taken the time to explain to everyone, her family and his family what they had chosen. I know they are the parents and don't have to explain anything, their choice, but it would have been nice so some of the hard feelings could have been avoided.
Thankyou Pooh ,
Maybe I'm old fashioned ...well I know I am ...lol ..but as a small child my GP played a big roll in my life .
My parents worked and it was normal for the GP to take a roll to help bring up the Gk's ...changed days
I know ,but my GM and I kept that special bond all her life ....John Denver's song grandmother's Feather Bed comes to mind ...didn't get much sleep but we had a lotta fun in grandma's feather bed .
Good times .!
I reviewed the website articles. DIL is having a very odd take on what she is reading. I agree with most other women here...DIL is confused or perhaps grasping to justify her actions. I must remind myself to have compassion. That doesn't help much LL, but my heart is with you. You are in the stage of hearing all of those "what for's". It can feel like arrows zinging by your head and will not often makes much sense.
Well Neece from what I can gather ,its very important for bonding etc .
I have had a few hours to get my head round this ,and have been told by my DIL I have to respect her way of parenting !
Well of course I will NOW I KNOW WHAT IT IS !! >:( >:(
Ok, I'm lost .. the goal is to exclude and eliminate all outside influences for the child for the first year of life? Doing this gives you an anxiety free child?
Sick! (How's that for an open mind?)
I think a better term for that would be helicopter parenting, Laurie, not attachment parenting. In fact, I think attachment parenting is done to maximize the quality time spent with your child (together while we sleep, etc.), simply b/c you can't be there all of the time (you have to work, you have to have a social life, etc.).
I might be incorrect in my interpretation; and there are a million ways to parent, so who knows.
I'm not passing judgment, just trying to understand what is being said
You caught me, I kind of was passing judgment.
Mentally I was passing judgment but not verbally..... and I hope no one sends that book to my newly pregnant dil
I think your DIL has it a little off. I never saw anything about cutting off all contact except for the parents, that is ridiculous. :o
good Morning America .!
DIL informed me that she saw her grandparents once a year .....so there's no hope for me guys !
What angers me is ,she let me pour my heart out with hearts and flowers ,knowing fine well this
was what she was thinking !
Maybe she is using this AP method to shut me out ,it certainly suits her purpose .
I will wait to be informed of my yearly visit .
Hang in there LL. I too had my GPs in my life constantly and I think I am a better person for it. GM was a saint, calm, patient and we would sit outside on the front porch swing and sing hymns. She was gentle and kind, and I would like to think some of her personality rubbed off on me. GP was a country hick, smoked, drank, dipped snuff and cussed like a sailor. He put me up to pranks on people, taught me to be mean as a snake, and drug me around barefoot all over town. (So when I stepped on a bee, he would drag the snuff out of his mouth and slap it on my foot...ewww) I would like to think some of his personality rubbed off on me.
I think that makes it very hard for us to understand how someone wouldn't want the GPs in their child's life. But knowing your DIL didn't have that same upbringing, makes it a little easier to understand why she doesn't see the importance. Doesn't make it fair, or fun...but explains how she feels.
Again, I think your DIL should have explained all this a long time ago to make things easier. Communication is the key. It's a shame that many of us have to call the locksmith all the time.
POOH : I wish I had you as a sister ,what great fun we would have had with your grandpa ! On one of the rare times my DIL came to visit ,at the beginning ,my pooch licked the babies feet to say hello .The baby was rushed to the bathroom to be washed ! so I don't know what she would make of your 'ole grandpa with his tobacco ..lol
That was in the days when you didn't need a book to chose a type of parenting ,I reared mine with Love
and they sorta turned out ok . Well that's progress for you .
My DS has told me to move on and accept it .No problem ,but thanks for letting me know .
Well we are online sisters now! And GP was bunches of fun, but stayed in constant trouble with my Mom ;D
~WOW~ I'm so glad I found this site..LL I honestly don't see where your FB comment was offensive,in this day and age the internet seems to be how we do most of our communicating,look at us now:) I do FB and my dil has put things on there to get to me or at me,I've even seen her 18 yr old friends threaten to beat me up!!! hahaha funny,when the wedding came around they couldn't make the 35 min drive:) ssage,I just read one of your comments and seen myself,I am guilty of avoiding eye contact with my dil in some situations and being quiet when shes around,she had put some red flags up from the begginning which I should have never acted on,but I also now see in my eyes my behavior was childish~holliberri,your situation sounds so much like my ds and dil,they dated over the internet without actual face to face contact for months before we knew it,then 4 months into it (sept) we took her down to see him,his Sgt cleared a spot and said here,the fiance can sit here,boy my head turned and I said no gf,nov they come home and say we are getting married,2 actual live visits,we were shocked..april they were married...I had posted my situation already and trying to move past it~I'm glad to see dil on here,it's nice seeing it from the other point of veiw~ you all are giving such great advice and support~LL,maybe step back and say I am here,I love you all I would like to get pass this,I've apologized,a gc without gp in their life is a sad tragic thing,my doors open~ I am taking this approach with my dil,we are both to blame and honestly,this whole who's right and who's wrong going on with her is exhausting,shes much younger than I and can last longer...this mil is throwing up the white flag~I've been dealing with this since Nov of 2009,I'm tired,I want choc and peace~Good Luck to all of us with whatever our situation may be~
Penelope, do you think part of the problem is that it all happened so fast? When my DS suddenly announced his engagement (sort of asking our thoughts but it was already a done deal) we'd only met his fiancee twice and didn't even know they were dating. Suddenly we were involved in paying all the groom's expenses (didn't realize there were so many, LOL) and I was learning my new roles as MOTG (wear beige and shut up) & MIL (swim back upstream and die.) Because of the wedding we didn't make our own boundaries clear, not wanting to add to the chaos. I'm embarrassed to admit we spent more $$$ & effort than we should have trying to show DIL she was welcomed and cherished. When we came up for air we were considered unworthy of respect or acknowledgement; actually, DIL said she hated us.
So within a space of 6 months we went from being charmed, to kissed up to, to being the cash machine, to being unacceptable losers. It's enough to make your head spin. (BTW, I refused to wear beige & looked quite stunning for an old bat, but I did shut up.)
Somewhere in our talks with our DSs/DILs we need to inject our own boundaries. I believe it can be done non-aggressively and with love, but they need to know that we will not be waiting by the window like lonely golden retrievers, nor will we be a magic ATM - we just might be out doing something amazing and spending our hard-earned money on ourselves!
Quote from: Pen on January 26, 2011, 08:21:46 AM
I was learning my new roles as MOTG (wear beige and shut up) & MIL (swim back upstream and die.)
I'm giggling in my cubicle right now. You ladies are going to get me fired from my job!
Thanks Penelope for your input ..:)
This forum as I said before gave me back my sanity ,When your head is full of spaghetti and you can't sleep these wonderful ladies gave me other aspects to look at .A lot also agreed with me so I didn't think it was all my fault ,and gave me back my self respect ...for these things I thank you ..x
I just wonder what my DIL will throw at me now ?
I worry for my GD suffering from separation anxiety when she is finally left with anyone .
Also how more anxious can my DIL get ?
I mentioned my nephew to her who has a 12 week old baby .They visit my sister on a regular basis and she babysits often .
She called this ''loose parenting'' and said they obviously don't care for their child ...!!
This is what I am dealing with ,what an awful thing to say ..!
Well the jury is out on this AP ,well maybe her version of it ,only time will tell how it affects both of them .
Penelope : Hope things work out for you ..enjoy the chocolates !
Pen : .....I've got the wedding to face ...and I think I'd rather swim upstream .....and YES
I think I'll spend my kids inheritance ....so when my yearly visit comes up, I'll be travelling around the world on my scooter .!
"Loose parenting?" Classic! ;D ;D ;D Guilty as charged - my kids, who were usually carried, breastfed, snuggled in our bed, etc. occasionally stayed with loving friends while DH & I spent a precious couple of hours together. I feel like I must have done something terribly wrong!
I think there's quite a spread between dropping the rugrats with your pimp while you spend nights out scoring crystal meth, and leaving a beloved infant with a loving, responsible relative/friend for a couple of hours. Sheesh! Some balance and sanity is needed.
hahahahahahaha OMG!! pen did someone really drop the baby with a pimp? and yes I kinda do think it all went to fast,her friends were on FB saying OMG!! you got married we didn't even know you were engaged!!! I guess she forgot to tell her friends!!! her response was,yeah..we had to get married quick,he was being deployed!! hahahaha we just never seen any emotions from her so when they sat us down and said we are getting married we were like whattttt??? and I hope no one judges me for this but I wore almost solid black to the wedding~I had no clue my hubby was gonna pick up the entire tab,give that man a beer and the checkbook and it's downhill from there,he's a very generous person,and lucky he's still alive....her mom pushed for it so I wanted them to pay their share~and I'm not proud to say but by the end of the night...she could have been a leprechan and I would not have noticed,the more the night went on the better my drinks went down~hahaha
Quote from: Pen on January 26, 2011, 08:21:46 AM
they need to know that we will not be waiting by the window like lonely golden retrievers, nor will we be a magic ATM
Quote from: Holliberri:
I'm giggling in my cubicle right now. You ladies are going to get me fired from my job!
Holliberri's laughing & about to get fired... Pen, your post left me in tears, because I recognized that I am like a lonely golden retriever, waiting by the window. I did really well over the holidays -- not so much lately. It's when that "stinkin' thinking" gets in the way.
Thank you Pen, your post, along with MU's experience with her stroke helped to bring me to my senses. MU, you are in my thoughts. Stay well... I just might go park my car down the street from dd today. : )
...someone is on a roll today...
This will definitely be the end of my job.
lol we are gonna have to take up a collection for holliberry since we may contribute to job loss:b hehe
Well great! I have been called "loose" before but always denied it! Now I have to go back and say, "Well yeah..." Great...great...great...
oh my gosh to funny..all from 1 posting..holliberry is now unemployed,pooh is loose and pen is going to have the sweetest scooter around~and why the pimp would even wanna watch the baby is still a mystery!!!! hahahahaha and so much more,you ladies had made my day~hahahahaha I wish you all a great evening~
Update for WW..
DIL and I are now exchanging emails ! We are getting loads of issues dealt with .
Instead of treading on eggshells I am now saying how I feel . I now feel it's she who is backing off ,and
making excuses for past behaviour .
So ladies you know what we do with doormats ...we walk all over them ....I am no longer that doormat !
LL,
That's great, but it's really hard to tell what exactly someone is doing/thinking via e-mail. Please don't be surprised if she's backing off at all, or that she isn't understanding you correctly. You may send her an e-mail and ask her if you think you both are comfortable enough talking on the phone. Plus, if one of you interprets something as abrasive, all that hardwork e-mailing may be lost.
I'll be hoping for the best.
Good luck.
Cheers Holliberri
I also said to her if I upset her ,she has to tell me and vice versa .
So if I think she says something abrasive I will ask her what she meant ,and hopefully she will too .
As I said no more eggshells ...and hopefully we can now begin an honest relationship .
I'm hopefully going to get an invitation to see my GD ,then I know all is ok ....I'll keep you posted .x
Yay!
LL I'm cheering for ya!!! I hope it all works out~ Holliberri do you have any sisters??? I have 1 son left:)
Nope, no sisters.
I really am hoping you get a response soon; I"m also hoping I can offer an olive branch someday too...not quite there yet. I admire what you did! :)
I think your mil is missing out holliberry,you sound like a smart,level headed young lady~a mil should/would be proud to say this is my dil~
I agree ....let's hear it for Holliberri ......hip, hip ,,,,,, ;D
:) Absolutely amazing the kind of support happening in virtual space!
Hip hip hurray!
Keep the dialogue going, it's so wonderful!
AND IT DOES HELP!
Good wishes to you LL and your relationship with DIL may flourish.
Oops! I misspelled hurray! :-[
When it scrolls by quickly no one has the chance to check out the spelling
Gosh, I wish I could have told my 2nd grade teacher that! ;D ;D
Great News Ladies !!!
got my invite today to visit my DS/DIL/GD ...!!
Spent two hours getting to know my GD again ......early days but looking good .
Maybe not playing silly games worked ....not going to rock the boat so being nice ....fingers crossed . :)
Great to hear, LL!!!
Crossing my fingers, ankles and eyes! Sending love...
OH THAT IS SO GREAT LL!!
I feel you pain and confusion. When I first read your post, I thought that it was mine that I posted several months back! That is how much your story mirrors mine. The pain does get less, but there are no answers on our situation. When our son called us and told us not to call him or come by and see him b/c it caused too much chaos in his life with the girlfriend, we KNEW what the problem was. IT'S HER!!! We do not call DS, we do not see DS due to his wishes. It actually ended up helping us to cope with the situation, and we have moved on with our lives. Of course we miss our Granddaughter, but we have not seen her since Sept 16, 2010 when she was 5 months old. We missed her 1st Halloween, her first Thanksgiving, her 1st Christmas and we are sure that we will miss her 1st birthday all due to the crazy gal that our son co-habitates with. Our Granddaughter doesn't even know who we are. We feel your pain, but it does get better. At first I was heartbroken. We were sad and felt betrayed by our son. It get's better, b/c you can't MAKE them let you see the grandbaby or your son, so that gives you more time to focus on yourself. Best of Luck. I will be rooting for you!
Mamaw313, it's good to hear from you. You seem to be doing well, and I'm glad to know you're focusing on yourself and moving on.
LL, that is great news!
Mamaw:
I know exactly what you are going through .
I always kept contact with my son ,and thank goodness he never gave me the call that you got .
Never give up , hopefully one day he will miss his family and get in touch .
My future DIL at least answered when I contacted her ,and didnt lose it when I explained how I was
feeling .
I don't know what caused your split , maybe one day you will feel you can contact your DS once again .
He will always be your son no matter what .
It's heartbreaking stuff and I don't think they realise what we go through .
Young people can brush these things off ,unfortunately moms can't .
One day your GD will want to meet the GM she wasn't allowed to see ......
We are both treading carefully ,not quite eggshells but being aware of each other ...I want things to work ,I always have .
Thinking of you and wishing you the best of everything .
LL that is so AWSOME!! :) I hope it continues to get better~
Great news LL and so happy for you! Progress...YAY!
I have read several of your posts by now. When you started posted I had been out for some time due to computer problems.
Yes now I see that you feel a lot like I did before things got well. You speak about dil having the power....Oh yes she does....I was there also....even wrote a document about power at that time. But I decided to cut that power...because it was making me crazy. Couldnt pay the price...it was too high, I was physically and emotionally sick. I had a long time depression and was constantly crying. I also sustained that we mils have more to lose than dils. The pain is the same...probably ...but we mils can just be cut-off of our son/daughter and gc 's lives. A bad mil can do a lot of harm too but losing a son or a grandchild is another story....I think so.
When I was having problems with dil, all my relatives kept telling me that I was very submissive to her....always trying to please her...they were right.....dil did not humiliate me, I correct myself....I humiliated myself in order to have her approval and/or acceptance. That is what hurt me the most....I wasnt nearly the shadow of what I really was before. I had not taken all this kind of treatment not even from my children. How could I be permitting this to go on....yes because like you I wasnt only afraid of not seeing my grandson (one at that time)....I was horrified.
After I opted out for sanity purpose, I knew I was saying good-by to all my dreams of being a real grandmother...but what did I have to lose...I had nothing...just like you said....crumbs?
I never expected this could happen to me. Why? I love my mil very dearly (she still lives) and she loves me. I am best friend to all my sisters in law because my husband was the only son in the family. My mother was a loving mil too...she loved my sisters and brothers in law (on my side) and all loved her back. So I never knew this could happened. What happened here to Karma.. I am and had been a good dil.
I now know there are some very nasty horrible mils too. But I feel that many (of course not all) dils just labeled mils and dont give them a chance. They want to play it safe and not run the chance of having in-laws intrude into their lives. I say this because I have spoken to young girls that are my frend's daughters and they tell me that they dont want their mil's around them. I just tell them to give them a chance. If they are intrussive or whatever then to cut them off if they please...but to try to know them better. I also feel that my son/daughters had a great asset with their grandparents ...they grew up in an enviroment of warmness and love given by their grandparents.
Lancaster Lady... when I bumped into this forum....I loved it...I had not found something like it when I needed it so much. I would search for help and advice and only found sites about dils having problmes with dils. I joined this forum because I wanted to learn more and probably share my experience. I am here on a daily basis but sometimes I just read and I have learned a lot...
We are not alone.....we have other wise women by our side willing to hear us vent....advice us and show us their compassion.
Hope everything turns out great for you.
Love
As someone who was cutoff in 2009 from her husband because of things that MIL had done and said specifically to turn him from me, I think a bad MIL can cause just as much damage as a bad DIL...ever lasting damage as well.
I lost my whole entire world for about 30 days while my DH was forward deployed I did not hear from him. Some days, I thought he was dead. I was pregnant and wound up miscarrying during that time. He didn't know it. He and I are born 1 day apart...I found out I was pregnant on his birthday, and I couldn't even tell him, b/c I was asked to give him space while he was sorting things out. 6 years invested into a relationship...gone. I thought permanently. All because MIL told him via Skype I didn't really love him if I didn't move near his family...which wasn't even an option he ever suggested. But, if you tell someone something enough, it does become their truth, I suppose.
I really think the pain and loss comparisons are fruitless here. I really don't think my pain is worse than anyone's here. Cutoff from my husband is likely just as devastating as a cutoff from my child would be. I love him just as dearly as I do her...and loving him enough was enough for me to find forgiveness for that when he did finally call and tell me he was coming home to be with me. I haven't walked a mile in your shoes, so you haven't walked in mine. I don't think anyone can say for sure that a MILs pain is worse than a DILs pain or vice versa. Pain is real, it is devastating and it is caused by a multitude of things, and people handle each type of pain differently.
Dear Holly ;
how absolutely horrible for you , and what a vile woman your MIL is !!
I would never interfere with my son's relationship , I know he loves his partner and they are very happy together .
However at the time I was wishing her a million miles away that such a selfish person had netted my beautiful son .
I think giving birth somehow changed my f/dil for the worse , at the time .as we were best of friends before .
You know now though , after my heart scare , she sent me the most texts to see how I was .
She now knows perhaps I am not the monster perhaps she thought I was .
so maybe patience has a lot to bear with new circumstances and relationships .
No you can never measure anyone's pain against another's .
You must have been in bits from one selfish woman's actions , we cannot expect our DS's to be tied to
us forever .
How wonderful it must have felt to have him come home to you , oh I love a bit of romance !
I admire you for even speaking to this person again , but then she is your DH 's Mom , hard to avoid
at times !
Someone said on OUR forum about having that type of personality before getting the title of IL'''!
I think that's correct . We don't become nasty people because of a title , we already are that person .
Nana :
Thankyou for reading my OP .
you can now see how we have walked the same walk ....and come out the other end .
you are so right about this forum , it certainly saved my sanity , and gave me back my self respect .
When you are suffering and being tortured , it's very hard to see things straight .
Everything is distorted and you don't know which way to turn .
The patience and guidance of these ladies certainly gave me the strength to heal and wait until I felt
strong enough to cope .
That's why I'm still here , it's like a club , and you know there are other's to chat and listen , and hopefully
share our knowledge .
I have also learnt what not to do in certain circumstances and also how to understand what some DIL's
have to cope with , and hopefully avoid doing the same .
Luise knows how grateful I am .....but thankyou once again . :)
Holly,
I am so sorry. How incredibly painful that must have been my friend.
I experienced grief from one of my dils and former mils behavior.
Comparisons are difficult when it comes to suffering.
I'm wondering your thoughts about the issue that was raised in the posts
about 'who's got more power'. ( Truly, I'm not trying to be provocative here
but to learn and I respect your opinion) Do you have a sense/thoughts IN GENERAL
terms of DILS having more power in their relationships with MIL?
That's my take due to the grandchildren aspect, but maybe I'm missing
something.
sending love
Tara :
I know you were addressing Holly , but my take on the power struggle theory is how strong the other
person is to resist that power .
As in Holly's DH , he was strong enough to resist the power of his DM .
Also myself and Nana we eventually overcome the power of our DIL .
You need to be a very strong person and in the right frame of mind to do this .
As I had to have time to heal the hurt and overcome my weakness to be able to know what
to do in my own situation .
I don't think there are any winners in these power struggles , just an outcome of equal respect
of each others strengths and weaknesses .
I feel another strong discussion coming on , with this topic .!
LL, I really don't think my MIL is vile, she's just really good at putting her interests before the interests of others. I didn't mention it on here before b/c a lot of good did come from it: DH came home with a new attitude. He stood up for his marriage more, and my long time suggestion of therapy was followed through for awhile. Plus, it was the darkest period of my marriage for me.
MIL needed an adjustment period to get used to us living near my parents...it makes sense she would choose to use the time when DH and I were apart to try to stop that from happening. Last ditch effort, I suppose.
Romance? Nah. DH was in the doghouse for awhile, plus I had to deliver some really bad news when he finally did call. Forgiving didn't come easy...my trust was damaged. We werent' able to work on romance until about 7 or 8 months after that, and by then DD was well on her way.
Tara, in terms of power...I don't know. I think the power lies with the men really. If he's not using it effectively and managing both parties...power is up for grabs. MIL saw that and took it. I suppose I could have easily done the same somehow, but I'm not sure how I would have. Funny how when DH handles the power he has better (as he did the last two times we visited), my issues with MIL seem to disappear for a little while anyhow. He gets it right sometimes, and he's been getting it right a lot more than he has been getting it wrong lately.
I also told DH I would drop law school and move with him before he stopped talking to me. If being with his family meant happiness for him, then I was willing to do it. It hasn't really been about power for me, but at the time, I suppose what I said was within my power...and my power was strictly focused on keeping my marriage in tact...it had little to do with MIL.
I keep coming back to the fact that my DIL had a choice after she met us to either move on or continue w/her relationship with DS. She chose to continue, so one would think she understood that we weren't going anywhere & that we would be in our son's life forever. DIL assumed she & her FOO could take him over completely and we'd somehow fade into oblivion. We had no choice - when DS announced they were engaged, we accepted her & welcomed her into the family. After the wedding she announced she hated us. If we don't like it, we can be cut off. What power do we have? None. What choice did we have? None, except to choose to not have a relationship with our son. DS didn't want that so he stood up for us. It could all change in a heartbeat, and probably will when GC arrive.
It never would have occurred to me to try to persuade DH to turn his back on his FOO. Ever. When I said "Yes!" I knew I was marrying into his family for better or worse, so I gave it some thought...I didn't say to myself, "They're weird, but I'll get DH away from them ASAP."
Quote from: Pen on May 18, 2011, 09:24:18 AM
I keep coming back to the fact that my DIL had a choice after she met us to either move on or continue w/her relationship with DS. She chose to continue, so one would think she understood that we weren't going anywhere & that we would be in our son's life forever.
And some of us think that once that wedding band is on his hand, his mommy will cut the apron strings and let him be a man.... *sigh*.... In a perfect world MIL's would see their DS/DIL as adults and potential "friends" instead of "children." ..... *sigh* .... Anyone know the address? lol
Quote from: Pen on May 18, 2011, 09:24:18 AM
If we don't like it, we can be cut off. What power do we have? None. What choice did we have? None, except to choose to not have a relationship with our son.
If I replace "son" with "DH" the sentence is exactly the same to me, Pen. I never felt I had much choice either with my MIL. I have said this before: I met her once and then the next time I saw her I was getting married at a courthouse. Either my perception skills weren't up to snuff OR she did just as your DIL did before the wedding. The ring was on my finger...the trouble started. Simple as that. YOu know why? DH was the son that was never going to get married and he was going to live close to home. I was the monkeywrench that was thrown into those plans, and she has even told me that.
My choice was to either leave my DH or accept his family as is. I love him enough to be happy to oblige. Also, I'm pretty sure if I suggested we cut off, that would be the end of my marriage. So, I too feel pretty powerless, because I love my husband that much.
And, given the events that I just described, apparently, somewhere along the line MIL did amass quite a lot of power...either it is there inherently or she sensed a vaccuum and ran with it. I don't think I'll ever know for sure.
And, apparently my MIL actually thought at some point, "Holly is apparently not residing in the right state, I'll have to get DS away from her ASAP."
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 18, 2011, 09:34:19 AM
Quote from: Pen on May 18, 2011, 09:24:18 AM
I keep coming back to the fact that my DIL had a choice after she met us to either move on or continue w/her relationship with DS. She chose to continue, so one would think she understood that we weren't going anywhere & that we would be in our son's life forever.
And some of us think that once that wedding band is on his hand, his mommy will cut the apron strings and let him be a man.... *sigh*.... In a perfect world MIL's would see their DS/DIL as adults and potential "friends" instead of "children." ..... *sigh* .... Anyone know the address? lol
.
Idk...my baby girl will always be my baby girl...just an adult baby girl. I think I can view her as a daughter/friend and still be a mother/friend, while understanding she has her own life and above all else, her happiness means a big part of my own happiness.
Quote from: Holly on May 18, 2011, 09:11:35 AM
Romance? Nah.~~~~~~ We werent' able to work on romance until about 7 or 8 months after that, and by then DD was well on her way.
Holly... I'm stuck on this one.. it's like a puzzle right? You aren't trying that immaculate conception theory are you?
Uh no...apparently the nadir of my relationship was the key to a successful pregnancy. I got pregnant the night he came home.
To use Pam's phrase: "mating" and romance dont' go hand in hand all the time do they?
Quote from: Holly on May 18, 2011, 09:45:50 AM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 18, 2011, 09:34:19 AM
Quote from: Pen on May 18, 2011, 09:24:18 AM
I keep coming back to the fact that my DIL had a choice after she met us to either move on or continue w/her relationship with DS. She chose to continue, so one would think she understood that we weren't going anywhere & that we would be in our son's life forever.
And some of us think that once that wedding band is on his hand, his mommy will cut the apron strings and let him be a man.... *sigh*.... In a perfect world MIL's would see their DS/DIL as adults and potential "friends" instead of "children." ..... *sigh* .... Anyone know the address? lol
.
Idk...my baby girl will always be my baby girl...just an adult baby girl. I think I can view her as a daughter/friend and still be a mother/friend, while understanding she has her own life and above all else, her happiness means a big part of my own happiness.
Somehow "Daughter" and "Son" sound different to me than "Child" and "Baby." My MIL stills calls DH her "Baby Boy." There isn't anything "baby" about him lol... I think it comes down to whether or not you still try to "parent" them when they are adults. MIL tries to "discipline" us in extremely passive agressive ways. It is annoying.
Quote from: Holly on May 18, 2011, 09:54:10 AM
Uh no...apparently the nadir of my relationship was the key to a successful pregnancy. I got pregnant the night he came home.
To use Pam's phrase: "mating" and romance dont' go hand in hand all the time do they?
Whew thanks for clearing that up.. you were mating on a regular basis just not romantically :)
Holly, thanks for sharing additional parts of your story...its good to get to know you more. Good point about the Men needing to
manage their power.
LL: thanks for clarifying your power ideas. Really fascinating. I'm going to meditate on this 8)
Anonymous: re: becoming "friends" with your son. Its an interesting idea, but from what I've learned I don't know
if most mature moms actually become real "friends" with their adult sons. For me and many others much thought and consideration
is involved in responding to them thoughout all the various phases of life and development. In fact Pen and I talked once
in the past about not knowing enough how to be a MIL and just thought that being friends would be just fine, but its not.
there are too many issues and considerations. Now, it is true that I have a few friendships that over the years that have involved
careful consideration, boundaries, etc. but generally not.
Gotta run flight to catch.
I am VERY curious now. :-)
1st, TARA! HAVE A SAFE FLIGHT!!!! Hope she heard me lol
Soooo, why can't mom's (in general) become "friends" with their grown sons? Does this also apply to daughters? Is it because when you look at them you still see the 9 year old who broke your lamp and lied about it? I am just so curious.
My own DM has a wonderful Friendship with both my brother and I. I didn't know that this was so unusual. Understanding this, may help me understand MIL/DH's relationship better.
Also, why do (in general) MIL's view their DC's spouse as a "child" as well? MIL treats me the same way she treats DH which is very frustrating for me because my own DM doesn't treat me that way.
I can't answer that one really ADIL. I have never considered my Mom as my "friend", she's simply my Mom with whom I have a great adult relationship with. It's the same with my adult sons. I never liked when my friends used to tell me that they wanted to be "friends" with their underage children. My sons had enough friends, they needed a parental figure. As adults, I see them as my Sons, and I have a wonderful adult relationship with the YS (wish I did with the OS), but still consider myself their Mom. Doesn't mean I want to Mother them...big difference.
As far as DIL, I have never considered her a child simply because she's married to my child. I think she acts childish, again big difference. I wanted the same from my Son's wives as I did them, an adult relationship.
If I am being honest with myself, I will say that as I have gotten older, I view ages differently. It's like when I was 16, I would look at a 40 year old and think they were ancient. Now as I get older, I see a 25 year old and kind of chuckle when I hear them sometimes, thinking...they are still a mere child. Again, not that I want to treat them like a child, just that I realize when I think back now to when I was 25, I still had a lot to learn. I'm sure when I am 80, I will look back at my age now and think I still had a lot to learn.
Yup, at 84, I see people in their 60s as "kids" and those in their 70s as "adults." However, Val, 100 in October...says I'm not "dry behind the ears, yet!" ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 18, 2011, 11:36:06 AM
Also, why do (in general) MIL's view their DC's spouse as a "child" as well? MIL treats me the same way she treats DH which is very frustrating for me because my own DM doesn't treat me that way.
You'll understand this better when your doctor becomes half your age... : )
I think I said this yesterday to Pooh. In my "perfect" world, I wish that I would have met DH in high school. I would have been a kid then, and in that instance, MIL's rules would have been in place and there would be no room for argument. Weird, I know, but I think our relationship might have evolved that way. I think that in some respects, that would have allowed her to become a sort-of parent to me.
I am also aware that DH wasnt' allowed to date in high school, so chances are he would have already been taken with mroe lax rules in place.
For me, I feel like hands down, MIL has the power. We've slowly gained some of our own, but goodness, it has taken years, and it seems like we hit landmines left and right.
Quote from: luise.volta on May 18, 2011, 12:03:06 PM
Yup, at 84, I see people in their 60s as "kids" and those in their 70s as "adults." However, Val, 100 in October...says I'm not "dry behind the ears, yet!" ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D Do we ever really grow up?
I hope not Rose....I certainly hope not....
Quote from: Pooh on May 18, 2011, 11:56:31 AM
I can't answer that one really ADIL. I have never considered my Mom as my "friend", she's simply my Mom with whom I have a great adult relationship with. It's the same with my adult sons. I never liked when my friends used to tell me that they wanted to be "friends" with their underage children. My sons had enough friends, they needed a parental figure. As adults, I see them as my Sons, and I have a wonderful adult relationship with the YS (wish I did with the OS), but still consider myself their Mom. Doesn't mean I want to Mother them...big difference.
I think this sums up the "current" state of my relationship with my mom rather well. I also think this is how I envision the mother/friend thing I was trying to articulate. My apologies...I'm getting a migraine.
*Passing Holly the Excedrin Migraine*
Pooh, when/how did you begin treating your DS's as "adults" in your relationship vs. children? Was there a particular event that caused you to view them differently?
Haha, thanks ADIL.
My parents started treating me like an adult a little too young. They were getting a divorce, and at times were behaving as children themselves. I think they were too wrapped up in their own lives.
I think DH's chat with MIl last year after DD was born helped her begin to regard as adults that didn't need hand holding all the time. She also expressed that she just wanted to be involved in our lives. We explained to her that we want that too, but that maybe shoving me out of the way as I'm changing DD's diaper isn't the best form of involvement. We also reminded her that involvement doesn't mean that she needs to be with us as we select homes to buy. Do I think she'll understand it? Nope. Do I think she is tryign to modify her behavior? Yep. She's begun to back off and in part, that gives us the impression that she really does believe we're adults. She benefits from that.
I have two sons, one is 33 and one is 35 ........
I am good friends with both , but I am still their Mom , and when they have problems , they still ask my advice .
The YDS is getting married in August , and obviously doesn't need me as much , my ODS is still single and has a very good
job and is definitely his own man . However when in doubt , he still consults me , I think perhaps as there is no partner
yet .
I certainly do not treat them as children , they are grown men , but we remain close .
My DD is still single and is 28 , and still likes to be treated like my special princess !! lol , but I suppose when she meets
that special person , I will still be mom , but not her first port of call .this is as it should be .
she doesn't stay at home , but likes to spoilt when she is .
When they all left home for Uni , that's when the process of separation begins , not financially I might add , but emotionally .
Holly,
I'm sorry you are getting a headache hope its not from this discussion.
IMHO if mil didn't allow your dh to date in hs that speaks to something.
I can see from your recent post your love and devotion to dh.
bye again
Quote from: Holly on May 18, 2011, 12:36:31 PM
I think DH's chat with MIl last year after DD was born helped her begin to regard as adults that didn't need hand holding all the time.
Quote from: lancaster lady on May 18, 2011, 12:42:20 PM
When they all left home for Uni , that's when the process of separation begins , not financially I might add , but emotionally .
Shoot! kids are not on the immediate horizon (if at all, still undecided). And DH didn't go "away" to college. He got his degrees through a community college. .......... *sigh* ............ guess the magic moment for MIL is still a ways off LOL
That's different for each one of them. YS was treated on what I would consider an "adult" level when he started acting like one after the teenage pregnancy. When he took full responsibility, dropped out of sports to work full time while finishing school, and made adult decisions in regard to his life and hers, I saw him more as an adult. So that was 17 for him. Does that mean he didn't climb on the couch with me and cry about it for awhile? Did he still come to me and ask for help and opinions? Yes to both.
I treated OS more like an adult when he moved out at 19 but I see him as an adult as far as he is married, pays his own bills and lives on his own.
Both of them earned "adult-like" respect as teenagers for acting responsibly.
I guess that's the key for me. If you want to be treated like an adult, then act like one. So in some ways, I still don't see my OS as an adult.
ADil,
DH was 1000 miles from home when I met him. We moved 4,500 miles away for 3 years, 3,000 miles away for another 2...and still live 1800 miles away from his parents. I really had kind of assumed that distance would help, but it hasn't.
I don't think DD was the catalyst, but she was a motivator for us to sit down and hash things out with MIL. It probably won't be the last. I think both of us there, and DH speaking mostly helped.
Tara,
No, the discussion was nice. LOL. I knocked my sleep schedule out of whack over the weekend and the barometric pressure is low. I think that might be it.
I was 13 when my parents started treating me as an adult. The reason? I co-owned a business with my brother. We took care of the bookings, bills, orderings, etc. We had NO help from DM/DF except for travel, and they sculpted FOR us. We were the bosses. Not a lot of parents would allow their children to be their boss lol... Also, I was very respected in our church and was an AWANA leader for the K-2nd grade kids.
It is funny because DH ALSO started his own business at 13. He was in sound for concerts, etc. has done concerts for The Beach Boys and Alabama. Worked as a class B truck driver through college on weekends he didn't have a concert (so he was gone Friday night through Monday morning kind of thing). He was also in charge of the sound system for church services.
Sooooo, it completely boggles my mind. We basically had the same background. My mom treats us as adults, his mom doesn't. His dad does though. :-)
Oh, on a side note, FIL sent MIL the letter to meet both lawyers and them for the divorce. She didn't take it well. Called him cursed him out then SIL called and cursed him out for 2 HOURS! Who has that much to say? lol -- Don't know what the fallout is going to be. MIL is VERY unhappy. Hopefully she will remain peaceful towards us. :-)
Sorry about your MIL, ADIL. My mom unloaded on us a few times during the divorce. I think it is normal when you can't take it out on your ex. It's not right, but it doesn't mean it is intentional. It's hard being the sounding board.
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 18, 2011, 09:34:19 AM
Quote from: Pen on May 18, 2011, 09:24:18 AM
I keep coming back to the fact that my DIL had a choice after she met us to either move on or continue w/her relationship with DS. She chose to continue, so one would think she understood that we weren't going anywhere & that we would be in our son's life forever.
And some of us think that once that wedding band is on his hand, his mommy will cut the apron strings and let him be a man.... *sigh*.... In a perfect world MIL's would see their DS/DIL as adults and potential "friends" instead of "children." ..... *sigh* .... Anyone know the address? lol
My comment didn't have anything to do with apron strings, so I'm guessing you weren't addressing me personally :-\.
Regarding choices: The signs are all there before you accept the proposal. Perhaps closer observation of FDH & FIL family dynamics would help? Sure wish I'd paid attention when I was dating my first DH (major overbearing mom.) I'm just saying that the FDIL has a choice. The MIL does not; she has to put up whomever DS marries or lose DS. IMO, if you willingly sign on, you kind of have to ignore some of the annoying things that you knew you were going to have to deal with. I left that marriage; I did not try to get rid of the ILs. It never occurred to me to do such a thing.
My DIL observed DH & I being parents and friends to our adult children (we were still supporting DS at the time) & knew we were a loving family who treated our kids appropriately for their age levels and behavior. BTW, there weren't apron strings involved in my sitch, just a young woman who wanted us to disappear. If FDIL didn't like us, she should have moved on instead of waiting until the day after the wedding to announce she hated us and only wanted her FOO in their lives.
The "when did you start treating them like adults" question is an interesting one. My parents never really did. Dad was still trying to order me around days before he died, but I had developed enough of a backbone to not let him (although not enough of a backbone to leave my XH before dad died - I think I deliberately waited to leave because I could not emotionally handle the engulfing ownership and "we told you so's" that would have come from my father). Mom's weapon was worry - she would get so anxious about something that it seemed like I was being deliberately cruel and heartless if I continued with it, even though she never actually told me to stop. She would just let me know how much is worried her. (And we're talking about stuff like driving by myself and crossing the street, in my 20s. I literally was not allowed to cross the street by myself if my parent's knew about it, even at 21 when I finally moved out.)
I've gone a little too far in the opposite direction with my son, maybe. I've tried not to be as engulfing and helicopter-y as my own parents were, and for the most part DS is pretty independent. I don't meddle with anything I don't consider absolutely critical, which sometimes causes friction with other family that is more controlling (especially his father), but I make sure that all the stuff a parent is supposed to take care of is taken care of. DS (who is now 17) and I did have a talk a couple of years ago where he told me that it was very important to him that he be allowed to make his own mistakes and to be treated as though he was capable, even if he did make mistakes. And, true to his word, he is good at accepting the consequences of his actions. I told him recently that parenting him is sometimes very much like watching a suspenseful movie. I have to cover my eyes and maybe just peek out between my fingers at the scary parts, but that he was doing what he needed to and that my reactions were just that - mine, and due to my own issues, beliefs and upbringing - and should not really govern what he chooses to do.
No, Pen, not you personally, just daydreaming of that world where we all get along. I knew MIL was somewhat "controling" before we were engaged, BUT since DH still lived at home, I saw it more as "parenting" sort of stuff. When I lived at home (I moved out about a month after I met DH), my mom had certain "rules" for me, but she didn't control me.
I feel like as soon as we got engaged, MIL panicked that her little boy wasn't going to "need" her anymore so she turned the apron strings into a noose. Since DH stilled lived at home while we were planning the wedding, she would go to him and ORDER him to MAKE me change my plans for the wedding. Soooo, since he lived with HER and I wanted her to get off his back, I gave in. So in the end, we didn't have anything that we wanted. :-\
Elsie, you sound like a wonderful parent. I love your analogy about the scary movie.
ADIL, I backslide somewhat with the nagging, and it's a constant process of negotiating mutual boundaries. But we both genuinely respect each other, so that makes it easier. He's a good guy, and will be an amazing adult, regardless of how completely different he is from me as a person. :D
If you were referring to your situation, Pen, then, yes, mild annoying things do seem nothing to sweat about...we've all been in agreement about your DIL for quite some time. I'm not sure that all of the things my MIL has done classifies as mild annoying things. Again, there were no signs that I was aware of prior to marriage, and the military basically told us get hitched or to break up. I couldn't have conceived of how the entire year of 2009 went down if my life depended on it. I don't really have ESP, just a little intuition and perception, and that's not 100%.
And, I like to think DH is quite content with me. I would think his mother would realize the pain he would be in if I left him or if she had convinced him to leave me. Just as he would be in pain if I asked him to cut her off. My MIL exercised her choice quite handily for a little while there, so sometimes it all comes down to whether a person would care to exercise that choice or power they do have, or not. I'd like to think that most of us would not. I also contend that we're all dealing with people who have. In my mind, MIL chose not to accept me for a long time AND there was never any threat of cutoff b/c I'm just not like that, having been around the block and realized the futility.
The signs all being there is akin to the fact that hindsight is 20/20. We all have perfect vision in the end. MIL was treating me before she realized we were getting married as if I had zero impact on her life. She wasn't wrong about that or out of bounds. I was just the first girl DH brought home. I'm sure she expected a few more auditions before the real thing showed up.
I'm trying to get a handle on my own situation, obviously. It's still disconcerting to me that a DIL could be sweet and accepting then suddenly shun her ILs. I'm never secure; it's like a form of PTSD (not to be disrespectful to those who have suffered really bad stuff.)
Holly, you have quite a lot to deal with there. You of all people could justify being less accomodating to your MIL, but you continue to try. Perhaps my DIL should walk a mile in your shoes to get a feel for how bad it could be...but only if you wear trendy heels? She's a bit of a fashionista. You'd think we'd have our mutual love of handbags and shoes to help us bond, LOL.
I didn't notice many signs before our engagement. I took my MIL at face value and really believed the way she presented her self. That may be naive, I suppose.
Pen, I do think it's very similar as you said DIL was sweet before marriage and then did a turn around. I feel the same way. Of course I saw some things when I first met her (like I do with anyone else) she's human as far as I know though so I figured she's got flaws lol.
What I wasn't banking on was that those flaws would add up to a severe mental illness that I'd have to personally contend with a few years down the road. I also wasn't informed this up front, not before our engagement, not after, not during wedding planning, not after marriage.
Hmm..now that makes me think if we need to start giving full disclosure of these types of things.
I think about faces are pretty common. It happens. We are all on our best behavior in new environments and situations. Maybe some people think of a wedding as the time they passed initial tests and can quit acting.
Pen, I have a pairl of Jimmy Choos she can try on for size, but somehow, I don't visualize your dil wearing a size ten...and a half. Lol. Ladies with big feet don't exactly have the grace to be uppity.
lol Holly. At least you don't have to shop in the little boys section for sneakers :-[
As far as power, I think the person who cares the least has the most power. It's difficult for me to articulate but I keep a pretty strong hold on power and control over myself, other people not so much. IME, those who do try to gain power over another usually have the most to lose and generally have less power in their own life -- that's why they are doing it to begin with.
When I apply that to the MIL/DIL relationship it seems about the same, someone you see reaching for power is the one with the most to lose for whatever reason. Something happened to them as a kid, or they have some kind of imbalance going on, something is just not right in their life, they aren't fulfilled or don't have the skills to find that fulfillment. JMHO
LOL...I might have to do for DD...her dad is a size 15 (men's) and I'm a 10 1/2 (women's), I sure hope that rumor isn't true about the shoe size for your kids is the average of your parents!
I think that analysis of the power grab could be quite true, although I hadn't considered myself having more power by not wielding it at all. Heh, in my mind the person throwing their weight around was the one with the most power. My unwillingness to partake was just out of avoidance, lol.
I think the person throwing their weight around often thinks they have the most to lose, but I'm willing to bet the person throwing their weight around is really incapable of thinking about the interests of the "other" side and ultimately the interests of the man in the middle.
Pam,
Was your MIL later diagnosed after you were married? Not really sure why I am asking, but I think that is a classic sign of just how drastically a situation can change without expecting it. Chemo brain and Alzheimer's are other things that come to mind too. Heck, my brother's FIL's personality changed a lot even after his quadruple bipass surgery...the doctor said that was expected. Granted, I think the person experiencing those things has the worst experience, but I also think that family endures a lot of fallout in the process.
I think your reaction is pretty typical of someone who has a general hold of power in their own life. You're not out to fix her or make her act a certain way.
Can you imagine two power grabbers going at it? Heh that may be we why find housewives so entertaining.
Seriously though, I do think the chronic boundary stompers and power grabbers have a lot of issues that are in direct conflict with general life. They don't usually have problems with just one person. I know my issues with MIL are an anomaly in my life. However my MIL has issues with each of her DILs and her own children. Severe problems in any of her activities or groups, friends come and go. Problems with her husband. All these problems b/c she can't self regulate, self soothe or nurture.
It's kind of sad really.
Quote from: Holly on May 18, 2011, 06:06:27 PM
Pam,
Was your MIL later diagnosed after you were married? Not really sure why I am asking, but I think that is a classic sign of just how drastically a situation can change without expecting it. Chemo brain and Alzheimer's are other things that come to mind too. Heck, my brother's FIL's personality changed a lot even after his quadruple bipass surgery...the doctor said that was expected. Granted, I think the person experiencing those things has the worst experience, but I also think that family endures a lot of fallout in the process.
I'm not sure when she was officially diagnosed. She told me when DH and I were dating that she had been in therapy. I assumed that it was just a run of the mill therapy and DH knew nothing about it.
After a few episodes of strange behavior and DH and I were in therapy, both marriage counselors we saw and my own personal counselor all said the same thing. They thought she had a personality disorder. So we sort of had an inkling then, although I didn't know much about it. And I thought they could be wrong seeing as how they never met her.
It wasn't until after the miscarriage episode that FIL came right out and told DH and I that she is diagnosed with BPD and other co-morbid disorders. He also asked us to talk to her therapist and work with her. Apparently she has seen over 40 therapists/pysch's in the past 10 years. She refuses to do the type of therapy that is most beneficial to BPD and instead burns therapists out. The one she has now still says its BPD.
I'm not always sure it's something *real* I can look at all the diagnostic criteria and she fits every single one, however she also says she has BPD so this is why she does things. Or she has BPD that's why she doesn't remember. She has BPD so that's why everyone should be nice to her and give her more, since she has BPD afterall. lol, ok, it's not funny but that's how I get through it.
hello transit hotel in San Francisco
Pam I find this discussion on power interesting.
BPD's can be tough to deal with even for therapists.
There is some newer research I heard recently that as bpds get
older they seem to fall out of the diagnosis/improve over time.
Have you noticed that with her?
The dialectical beh therapy is really interesting and was designed
for bpds, utilizes mindfulness skills. I think its great that you
have a sense of humor about her situation!
Hi Tara, you lucky gal! I love San Fran, I really hope your vacation is great!
Power is an interesting discussion, wasn't it Oprah who started the "don't give your power away" campaign to women? I always thought it was interesting.
Thinking more last night, I realized that when someone is on the caring more spectrum they do have leeway in trying to entice the care lesser. I know since I have a lazy attitudes towards holidays, my MIL could have easily scooped up all our holiday time and get us to do what she wants -- if she had remained kind and civil to me. She shot herself in the foot.
I haven't personally seen her get better, however DH says she was much worse when he was younger. There are also stories of how her mother was and I find it hard to believe since her mother seems so normal to me now lol. And SIL (DH's older sister) I have always found to be worse, she is the one who believes we should celebrate her on Mothers Day when she has no children. Just b/c she was an older sibling, she says she raised them.
So I can see a progression looking at all 3 of them.
I found this quote and thought it was very applicable to this conversation:
"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything, he's no longer in your power - he's free again." - Aleksander Solzhenitsyn
I think that is a good quote. I just hope whoever takes all my power away takes my debt with it. :)
My Managing Power book was on my desk last night...I think I've mentioned it on here before. It was supposed to be for workplace politics, but even my professor kept alluding to familial situations. It contends that everyone has an equal amount of power they just have to exercise it in different ways. Hard to articulate, but basically, a person with a lot of power only has it because it is given to them. A lot of times it is perfunctory. People that abuse power don't realize how easily it could be taken away if those giving them the power would take it back. If everyone stopped feeding them power, they'd essentially be powerless...the trouble is those supplying the power don't often realize that, or don't care enough to do something about it.
For me, my inherent power comes from loving my husband, being his wife, raising his children. My MIL's inherent power comes from loving her son, being his mother, and raising him. I don't think that necessarily means there is a natural imbalance of power (those sentences read nearly identical)...it is when the abuse of power begins on one side that trouble starts. Some people forget how easily they can lose power if they abuse it....sadly, some people never really do lose power once they abuse it.
I love all that. If I apply it to my own situation, it gets stranger for me. On one hand, I feel like I have given all power to my DIL because I backed away from the situation. On the other hand, I feel like I have taken all the power from her by refusing to play her game, yet my OS still gives her all the power. I think the only way that things will ever be equal is if my OS ever decides to take back his power.
Very true. The trick is that all parties handing over power need to take their portion of it back. There really isn't a way to level the playing field besides that, I don't think. I wish, though.
Me too. I guess it all boils down to who is willing to abuse their power and the hope that eventually they recognize they are doing it or are made to recognize it when the people revolt!
omg Pooh and Holly, that's exactly it! This is an enlightening discussion for me lol.
My internal dialogue when MIL starts up the complaining and whining is always but you only have what you have b/c I gave it to you? How are you daring to ask for more? lol
She mistakes kindness for weakness a lot and always seems so surprised and shocked when someone stops being so kind.
Just throwing this out there... Do you think women are more likely to have "extra" power that they abuse because a man gives it to them?
Ex. Mom's (when their kids are little esp.) have a LOT of power. They tell the kid when to get up, what to wear, what to eat. etc. It's their JOB because they need to make sure the kid is healthy and safe. So, say they have a son. They have their "power" plus most of the "power" of the son. The son grow up. Sometimes the mothers refuse to shift the "power" back to them, but once the son is out of the house he has it all at his disposal. He can't handle that complete "power." So what's he do? Gives it to wife. Soooo, DIL now has the "power" of son plus her "power," but MIL only has her "power" now......
I'm lucky. DH and I share our collective "power." Sometimes he uses more, sometimes I do, but it never feels like a struggle. Neither of us wants the dominance.
Hmm...I can say in my situation that I think (and this is a big think) that my OS saw that his Dad growing up didn't take responsibility for anything. I think he saw me doing everything, so when he married DIL, he did give her all the power of the relationship. I think he is very much like his Father in the respect of "here, you do it so I don't have to worry about it and can just go to work and come home".
The difference is that he doesn't understand that I had all the power in my marriage to his Dad, simply because it was forced upon me or we wouldn't have a house, electricity, food, their needs would not have been met, etc. This is going to sound all Wizard of Oz, but also I chose to use all that power for good. I made sure they were taken care of, the house was taken care of, their social life was taken care of, our extended family was taken care of, our bills were taken care of, charities, etc. All of those were priority to me, and things for myself were secondary. I think in his marriage now, DIL uses most of the power to get what she wants, and all the other things are secondary.
Wow, this opens up a lot of interesting ways to look at our families.
Don't forget the role of the "media." My DIL & her FOO are like the 24 hour news spin channels.
IMO, if one believes that the person in power has the family's best interests at heart they will continue to support that person. My SM keeps her power intact that way. Her adult kids think they will inherit all the wealth she built from my dad's money so they do her bidding. My sib & I don't expect one penny, so we are less likely to play her game.
Pooh, my DS was more tuned in to me too since DH had long hours @ work. I too put myself behind all the obligations. DS married a woman who does not come second, just like your DIL. Maybe he's trying to compensate? My DF handed all his power over to SM to compensate for being the center of the universe when he was married to my mom; he actually said that. Doesn't do me any good....LOL.
Pay no attention to the Pooh behind the curtain! lol
Sooooo, if you think about it. lol. It still comes down to personality.... My mom had easily 95% of the power (being "nice" to my dad lol) in their marraige. I saw that and thought, Woah! My mom (although she did use it for "good") really came across as a nag! I knew I didn't want to have all the power or be responsible for everything in my marraige. Sometimes I feel like DH starts thrusting it on me and well, it ain't pretty lol.
DB on the other hand, must have liked what he saw. He has given his power (other than financial matters-- he pays the bills and does the budget) completely to SIL. She is like your DIL though. She uses it to make herself happy. That's how all of DB's friends and family have been put into the cut-off and hers aren't.
So, the moral of the story. If you are self-absorbed, "Power Corrupts, and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely!" lol
ADIL, I think you're onto something.
DH tries to give me all his power and it's a bone of contention in our marriage. He wasn't allowed any as a youngster and frankly doesn't know what to do with it. It's enormously frustrating trying to figure out what he wants to do b/c his mind was never wired to work that way, he automatically thinks of everyone else first.
He has started therapy (yay!) and is starting to understand that his power is his, mine is mine. He used to say really enmeshed kind of stuff to me like "I'm only happy when you're happy, so I want to do whatever makes you happy" Sounds nice but it's really kind of sad.
I've had to tell him that followers don't make me happy lol. I want a full partner, not someone to order around. He did thank me the other day for not taking advantage of him, so I'd say the therapy is working.
I have that partnership now, and it is wonderful. It was a huge learning curve for me though. My current DH had to be very patient with me in the beginning. He literally had to fight me to just do the dishes..poor guy. I was so used to doing everything, it was hard for me to relinquish things to him. I didn't know what it was like to have a partner that believed in sharing the power and really was lost in the beginning of our relationship.
Pam, I am so glad your DH is learning and what a great thing to say to you!
This is an issue between DH & I too, Pam. He's a wonderful man, loves me & our kids, is kind & charitable to others etc etc. but he has trouble being powerful. He gets what he wants but in a circuitous, almost PA way. I guess he can then claim that he's not an overbearing DH/DF. I don't want to be the one deciding everything either. When my DH says the same line to me about "I'm only happy when you're happy" it makes my skin crawl. It just now occurred to me that since my DIL is perfectly happy being the boss, that's just another thing that causes misunderstandings between the two of us.
my husband will use the same line about he is only happy when I'm happy.. and that could be seen not as a sign of weakness on his part but because if I'm really not happy.. I'll make darn sure he isn't either. With my husband it might be more of a survival tactic :)
Quote from: Pen on May 19, 2011, 08:49:27 AM
It just now occurred to me that since my DIL is perfectly happy being the boss, that's just another thing that causes misunderstandings between the two of us.
What an eye-opening statement Pen. You are right. For the majority of us here, we are striving for equal partnerships in relationships, no matter what the title of the person is, but dealing with people that want to be the boss. We have a problem with being laid off, but they have no problem handing out pink slips.
ToTo, we are not in Kansas anymore....
Pen, that is similar to DH too. It is almost p/a when he actually does want something, I used to wonder why he couldn't just come out with it and tell me.
Pooh, that's it. Balance.
I don't believe that backing away from a situation gives any power away, I see it more as exercising your power to not take bad treatment or abuse from someone, and in doing so, taking all power away from the abuser. I also don't believe that very many wives are able to take control of their husbands (except for the ones that don't want any power to begin with). I think that very often what is perceived as control is actually a "united front" between husband and wife, or sometimes it's a case of where the husband agrees with the wife but instead of just saying so, hides behind her and lets her take the blame. My DH's FOO will always blame me entirely for every problem we ever had. Even when he told them otherwise, they believe that I forced him to tell them that. The fact that they put the blame on me only made him more upset with them because he does put his wife first - not because I have taken any power from him but because we BOTH put each other first, always. I know a few truly henpecked men, but most really are not.
Free, that's what we've been talking about, the men who want to hand their power over. If they marry a woman who hands it right back, great. If they marry a woman who grabs it and runs, we've got a woman with all the power in the relationship.
You should see DIL's end-of-the-year evaluations.....I'm thinking rhinestone-covered clipboard next Christmas, LOL. I should just clean out my desk now.
Yes, I get that, my point is that I don't believe there are not very many at all men who just hand their power over. And yet their wives still manage to get blamed for it all.
Quote from: free_at_last on May 19, 2011, 09:08:15 AM
My DH's FOO will always blame me entirely for every problem we ever had. Even when he told them otherwise, they believe that I forced him to tell them that. The fact that they put the blame on me only made him more upset with them because he does put his wife first - not because I have taken any power from him but because we BOTH put each other first, always. I know a few truly henpecked men, but most really are not.
That's sad. Sometimes it is difficult for a FOO to accept that their DS/DD/Whoever does have a mind of their own. So when they finally go "against da family" it is so much easier to blame the newcomer (DIL/SIL/Whoever-in-law) than accept that they don't agree with FOO on something.
I know a LOT henpecked men. they don't seem particularly happy. :-\ Balance is way better. I think in any relationship. But I don't think "cut-off" is necessarily the best way to handle a emotionally abusive relationship (physically, absolutely). Sometimes we need to learn to not be so sensitive to what other say to us. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."
IME, words have a lot of power. Someone who is chronically negative with spoken word generally just doesn't stop there. Their behaviors are also quite negative.
Either way, when they have the audacity to be consistently critical I don't think the responsibility falls on the other party to just shrug it off. There's something to be said for standing up for yourself.
I try not to be too critical of how people deal with others, it's their prerogative to pull away or try to laugh it off. They have a history and personal experiences and IMO know best what works for them in their own life. It's probably best just to let them live it however they see fit.
I agree that the henpecked men I know are miserable in their marriages (and don't seem to have the backbone to do anything about it), but I don't believe there are all that many that let their wives have that kind of control.
Words and actions DO hurt sometimes, and when the same things happen over and over after years of trying, there are times when cut-off is the only option in order for self-preservation. IMO life is too short to keep allowing repeated abuse by the same people, whether physical or not. I'm not talking about somebody saying something mean once in a while...in my case there was a whole lot more going on than that.
I get what you're saying, Free. When people's minds are made up against someone it's hard to convince them otherwise, especially if they wrongly or rightly believe there's been a personality change in their loved one since a new person entered the scene. I'm not saying that's what happened in your case, but a lot of us have noticed that in our own situations.
There can be no henpecking w/o the peckee's permission I suppose. Actually, I find 'henpecked' and the previously used 'momma's boy' and 'apron strings' kind of offensive terms. What do we call a man who rules the roost? What do we call a woman who is still tied to her father or FOO? What's the male equivalent of 'apron strings?'
Jumper cables? lol
FAL, you're so right, life is just too short for me to be around a miserable person. It reminds me of that management course I took, who knew you were supposed to compliment/praise someone 7 times for every 1 critical feedback? LOL, it made so much sense when the guy explained that, I just never said anything before until they messed up lol.
Oh Pen, I have lots of names but only a few are safe to share here. Daddys girl, Pretty Little Princess, Precious....lol
Oh and you can't forget the pronounciation...Precious is said like this...Pwecious lol
I think the term for a man who rules the roost is a Dictator! lol
I am very influenced by the emotions of people around me. When they are sad, I am sad. When they are negative and cranky, it makes me negative. Soooo, while I can agree in part that you shouldn't spend a lot of time with negative people, I guess I'm just not willing to let them go completely--provided they are family, negative friends can hit the road lol. I'll take a lot more from "family" than I would ever take from a friend. While I wouldn't hang out with the negative person all the time, I also wouldn't cut them off completely.
If anyone in my life should be cut off based upon past behavior, it would be my mom. She was extremely physically and emotionally abusive of me (not so much golden boy DB) when I was growing up. It was really hard. The woman that raised me quite frankly doesn't deserve me in her life. I dwelt on the negative of it all for a very long time, but I eventually got to the point where I noticed she isn't like that any more. I'm glad that I didn't cut her out of my life because now we have a wonderful relationship with each other. She HAS changed so much. I don't hear negatives from her anymore. I'm glad she has changed and that I stuck around long enough for it to happen.
Granted, not everyone will change, but I guess having this example in my life makes me more willing than others to stick around and hope for it to happen. And if there is something I can do to help facilitate it, by George I'm going to do it lol. Compromise is important in any successful relationship.
I think if something is defined as emotional abuse, there isn't room for compromise. My aunt was hit by her first husband and verbally attacked by her second. She said she'd prefer to be hit b/c at least she saw the fists coming and could be prepared. For her, emotional abuse was worse.
I really think that in my MIL's marriage, she didn't have a lot of power. She was often lied to. To me, that is code for undermined. She thought her family was doing one thing, while they were doing something different. This was easier to manage under one roof, but it's harder to lie about vacations, which state we live in, etc. I'm not sure DH's father or his sons considered the impact that lying would have on her. Honestly migth have prepped her for dealing with these changes a little better. In her mind, nothing had ever changed until her sons were married.
Quote from: Holly on May 19, 2011, 10:00:40 AM
I think if something is defined as emotional abuse, there isn't room for compromise. My aunt was hit by her first husband and verbally attacked by her second. She said she'd prefer to be hit b/c at least she saw the fists coming and could be prepared. For her, emotional abuse was worse.
Good point.... The emotional abuse was much worse than the pysical, but I always had my dad to tell me that XXX wasn't true and that he loved me. Losing him was soooo hard for me. But now I have DH. He has filled that role so emotional abusers don't hurt me as much. Now, if DH were the emotional abuser, I wouldn't be able to handle it at all.
I also don't think criticism and emotional abuse are one in the same either. I wouldn't say that the things MIL has said are abusive really. To be honest, I don't really know a strict definition of emotional abuse, and I couldn't describe it b/c I haven't encountered it. Perhaps that is why I can't see cutting off MIL...to me she hasn't really been abusive.
Telling someone that they are worthless, won't amount to anything, are stupid, aren't as good as their brother, are an embarassment to yourself and the family.... that's an example of emotional abuse.
Telling you that they way you do dishes is wrong, do it like this.... that's criticism.... Thinking about it, my MIL isn't emotionally abusive. She is overly critical and could use a chill pill lol
Quote from: pam1 on May 19, 2011, 09:39:32 AM
FAL, you're so right, life is just too short for me to be around a miserable person. It reminds me of that management course I took, who knew you were supposed to compliment/praise someone 7 times for every 1 critical feedback? LOL, it made so much sense when the guy explained that, I just never said anything before until they messed up lol.
Oh Pen, I have lots of names but only a few are safe to share here. Daddys girl, Pretty Little Princess, Precious....lol
'Daddy's girl' doesn't have the bad connotation that 'Momma's boy' has. It's more positive, meaning a female who is valued & cherished by her father. 'Momma's boy' is negative, meaning a powerless male being smothered by a needy, controlling mother who thinks the sun shines out of her precious darling's whatnot. IMO.
Pam, don't take offense to this...
I have never used Daddy's Girl as a term of endearment. I used it when I was talking about girls who had daddy's credit card or knew their dad would bail them out when they got into trouble. When I have used it, I meant to imply a woman couldn't stand on her own two feet.
Name calling is wrong, I know. I was just being honest about my associations with the term.
I should add that I know of several women that own the term and it does have positive connotations for them, though.
Name calling is wrong, and I am guilty of it too. I call my DIL "Princess" as in a bad way. You would hear my friend call her GD "Princess" and mean it in a good way. I think any words you use are more about the intent of how you are using them.
I think women, being a minority for a long time, have been taught to take negative terms and flip them. They start using them positively and take ownership of those traits. Either that, or when we use Princess or "Daddy's Girl" negatively, it isn't so negative because it is refers to some traits or behavior that society has at times required of women.
I don't think I'll ever hear the day where a son is referring to himself as 'momma's boy.' It takes a lot away from our expectations of what a man should be. (I am quoting my power professor yet again, who is a self-proclaimed paying member to the "Male Liberation Federation of the US").
Quote from: Pooh on May 19, 2011, 10:25:05 AM
Name calling is wrong, and I am guilty of it too. I call my DIL "Princess" as in a bad way. You would hear my friend call her GD "Princess" and mean it in a good way. I think any words you use are more about the intent of how you are using them.
The name Princess has a bed rap. When mother's call their DD's princesses I think about bratty children who want what they want. DD calls herself a princess but we are teaching her to be a princess you have to be a good listener, kind to people and follow the rules. Princesses in our house aren't spoiled rotten brats.
I agree. I use it to refer to my DIL in a not-nice way, but my friend uses it on her GD in a sweet way. The child is not spoiled at all.
Quote from: pam1 on May 18, 2011, 05:17:17 PM
lol Holly. At least you don't have to shop in the little boys section for sneakers :-[
My very first thought when I read that is - you lucky duck! I really, really want a pair of dinosaur keds, and a pair of sparkly light-up metallic purple sneakers, and they ONLY MAKE THEM FOR KIDS! So totally unfair. :)
Quote from: elsieshaye on May 19, 2011, 12:33:23 PM
Quote from: pam1 on May 18, 2011, 05:17:17 PM
lol Holly. At least you don't have to shop in the little boys section for sneakers :-[
My very first thought when I read that is - you lucky duck! I really, really want a pair of dinosaur keds, and a pair of sparkly light-up metallic purple sneakers, and they ONLY MAKE THEM FOR KIDS! So totally unfair. :)
lol I've had people mention that they haven't seen nike selling a shoe and I've had to tell them they do in the boys section. Have you seen those twinkle toes? lol
Pen, this is just me, but Daddys girl has not been a nice term that I've seen used. In fact, all my examples have negative connontations. I know name calling is wrong and I admit, that is a huge fault of mine. I grew up in a household where name calling was a term of endearment, you should hear some of sibling nicknames lol. I realize a lot of people don't understand and perhaps it's a defective sense of humor but it's enormously funny to me.
Pam,
I'm sorry...your post makes so much more sense now. I was reading your list as names your dad called you. (You didn't seem the type, to be honest, but I figured if that was how it was, that was okay too...lol).
Hey, why can't I be a Princess too :)
No, those are strictly my names for other people. In fact I think women tend to have more derogatory names in society than men ever or will ever have. You guys haven't heard anyone say "Oh isn't that precious" ?????? Well if you do, it's someone politely calling the other person tacky. Just a little FYI there lol
Quote from: Pen on May 19, 2011, 09:35:29 AM
I get what you're saying, Free. When people's minds are made up against someone it's hard to convince them otherwise, especially if they wrongly or rightly believe there's been a personality change in their loved one since a new person entered the scene. I'm not saying that's what happened in your case, but a lot of us have noticed that in our own situations.
But are they really seeing a personality change, or is it a priority change? Isn't it normal for there to be some big changes when a man's future wife enters the scene? My son's (college student, not married yet) priorities changed drastically when he met the woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with 18 months ago. I know he loves us and we are high on his priority list, but we are no longer at the top of that list and that is how it should be. I'm just glad that I'm no longer the one he calls at 3 am on a weeknight because he's stressing about a big exam the next day. She doesn't have any magic powers over him...he simply loves her more than anything or anyone else. It makes me proud to see what a wonderful husband he will be someday, not sad or angry that he has changed.
Of course I know this isn't always the case and I know there are some power hungry DILs out there (unfortunately I think my sister has one of them), I do however think a priority change is a lot more common than a personality change, and it is very often mis-interpreted by the son's FOO, who sees it as the DIL running things.
Free at last
I think you are right. Our children's priority change. Havent thought about it. Before my son got married, we use to have those big chats once in a while (he initiated them). These was when something was bothering him. He would open his heart and soul to me and I would listen, and if he permitted, I had a say. This chats could be from 10:00 Pm to 3 or 4:00 a.m. After that, the curtain was closed and if I try to talk another day about it, he would answer me very bluntly. My chance was gone, until he needed to vent again lol.
Now he has his wife to do that. He gives me sometimes 10 or 15 minutes on a subject and that is all. I dont mind, at least I dont get to worry about his problems because I dont know them.
I understand it. He has a family of his own and as much as he loves me (I think) he loves his family more.
Even when my mother was alive, when I had something important to share about my life, the person who came to my mind to share was my husband. I still do. My husband is now my best friend, I love to share with him the good, the bad and the ugly things that happen to me.
So something to think about....people sometimes do no change, their priorities do.
Love
I agree, Free and Nana. What I meant was an actual change in personality, evidenced by such things as sudden changes in preferences in music, politics, religion, sports, friendships, style, cuisine, etc. etc. or changes in mood or emotion. We've had members mention this before. A change in priorities is healthy, natural, and to be expected. A complete personality change is not; it kind of smacks of cult-like behavior.
And I said "rightly or wrongly," meaning that sometimes the family is right, there has been a personality change, but sometimes they're wrong and it's just the way they choose to see the normal changes that occur when people marry. Whatever is happening, it makes it difficult for the new DIL to be accepted, IMO.
If DS is visibly happy, continues to communicate with his FOO, & doesn't suddenly drop all his old friends and hobbies I think it's easier for his FOO to accept the new DIL, again IMO.
Yes Pen it is true. priorities are one thing and changes in personality is another. I was not referring to you.... This is obviously not your case....you as mother can easily see changes in personality.
My son sticks to his same old friends (from high school and University) and plays softball all the time as he always did (he plays with his buddies and with his co-workers). He has his son (almost five) playing baseball since he was 3. He likes parties, beer (ehem). He is just a little bit more picky in small things (this came with his married life lol) some things are for the better.....he was completely disorganized when he was a bachelor and now he even teases me if I have objects misplaced.............. when he used to have his room upside down. My dil is so neat and tidy ....has everything in place so I am glad she accomplished what I couldnt.
We as mothers do know...when our children do change......we raised them and have lived with them all their lives...simple as that.
Love
I know people who have grown up a lot after marriage and some who find different things to like. I love the history channel now and you would have never gotten me to watch it before lol, thanks to DH I don't just watch reality tv lol.
DH is an atheist and his parents have never known. He is in the process now in feeling ok to let his preference known. He wasn't comfortable beforehand.
I also tend to think parents have a little bit of a blind spot concerning their children. Mine still swear I love ice cream cake (hate the stuff) and I can't recall a time I ever liked it. lol it's a smaller thing, I know.
Pam, that's funny about the ice cream cake.
I remember at my bridal shower we played a game where MOH had asked DH 20 questions and then saw how many I would get right (well, besides the annoying fact that MIL thought I would get 3 right and her evil spawn thought I'd only get 1 lol). One question was "What did DH say was the best meal that you have made for him?" I answered something like "That's a tough one, but probably Fettuccini Alfredo (which was right)." MIL immediately goes "That's wrong! It's the Italian Chicken" I made that for him once. It is his mother's recipe. He told me to never make it again because he hates it because that's all he ever ate growing up because it was the easiest thing for MIL to make lol (I didn't tell her that though lol)
Quote from: Nana on May 20, 2011, 01:04:50 AM
Yes Pen it is true. priorities are one thing and changes in personality is another. I was not referring to you.... This is obviously not your case....you as mother can easily see changes in personality.
My son sticks to his same old friends (from high school and University) and plays softball all the time as he always did (he plays with his buddies and with his co-workers). He has his son (almost five) playing baseball since he was 3. He likes parties, beer (ehem). He is just a little bit more picky in small things (this came with his married life lol) some things are for the better.....he was completely disorganized when he was a bachelor and now he even teases me if I have objects misplaced.............. when he used to have his room upside down. My dil is so neat and tidy ....has everything in place so I am glad she accomplished what I couldnt.
We as mothers do know...when our children do change......we raised them and have lived with them all their lives...simple as that.
Love
Just for the record, my DS did
not go through a personality change. He's grown and evolved, but still enjoys his previous interests and most of his friends. Marriage has been good for him (except for the DIL & her FOO shunning us part.) Nana, my DS has become conscious of messiness too. It cracks me up, but I'm glad.
I brought up examples from other members who did see personality changes rather than just priority changes to point out that it is possible, not because it pertained to my DS. One previous poster even said it was "cult-like."
lol Adil, I just shake my head and eat my beloved ice cream cake to see their smiles. Well of course italian chicken would be his favorite lololol
I was mulling over this personality change and thinking about the things Pen listed off.
I can see where my MIL would interpret everything that DH has changed since marriage (basically everything...we were in our 20s, we moved a lot, got degrees, made new friends together) as a personality change. His agnosticism has been harder to hide than previously b/c he isn't pretending to go church anymore. He switched political parties. He dressed different b/c his work requires it and I don't tolerate rips and tears in clothing...but that's really the only change that I pushed.
But the guy she loves is still there. His emotions and mood haven't changed at all. He votes a little differently and he is comfortable with his spirituality, but that's it. Those things usually don't make a person. He'll still be the guy to just say "good" whether he thought something was great or awful (so profound). He tends go into a trancelike state while reading a book or watching TV just like he always has. If he sees someone doing something the difficult way, he goes over to help them simplify things. He's still patient...if he has to explain something to you 100 different ways before you finally say "Ah-ha!" he'll do it. He also doesn't jump all over anyone's case. Ever.
I bet many parents look at the first paragraph (which lets face it...quite a few 20 somethings flip religion/politics/ideology throughout that decade...it's a time of major changes) and label it personality. Parents are older and likely more set in their ways (they've been through the tumult of 20 something already)...I can see where a parent would be quick to interpret political and religious things as a completely values change when they may not be. If anything, we haven't so much as changed as found our comfort zones.
If you just looked at that stuff...yep...DH and I look totally different than 7 years ago...we've each changed a little about the other (what marriage won't do that?), but the other things we've encountered along the way facilitated changes too.
Quote from: Pen on May 19, 2011, 10:28:06 PM
I agree, Free and Nana. What I meant was an actual change in personality, evidenced by such things as sudden changes in preferences in music, politics, religion, sports, friendships, style, cuisine, etc. etc. or changes in mood or emotion. We've had members mention this before. A change in priorities is healthy, natural, and to be expected. A complete personality change is not; it kind of smacks of cult-like behavior.
And I said "rightly or wrongly," meaning that sometimes the family is right, there has been a personality change, but sometimes they're wrong and it's just the way they choose to see the normal changes that occur when people marry. Whatever is happening, it makes it difficult for the new DIL to be accepted, IMO.
If DS is visibly happy, continues to communicate with his FOO, & doesn't suddenly drop all his old friends and hobbies I think it's easier for his FOO to accept the new DIL, again IMO.
I agree that when a person finds the one they want to spend their lives with, their priorities should change. In fact, I would be a bit concerned if my son still came to me with everything when he had a wife. But in my DS's case it's more like what Pen said. It's a personality change, but not quite the things she listed. I've noticed no difference in music, religion or politics, or other subtle changes, but a change in character.
My DS even with his issues used to be very charming. He was always smiling or joking...he seemed happy. He was talkative and it was easy to get him to laugh. There use to be a light in his eyes. However, after hooking up with FDIL the light left. He always looked as if he had something heavy on his mind, you know like the kids needed braces, or the mortgage was due and he'd just lost his job, type of heavy. But he was only 21 and he had none of those problems. It became very rare to see him smile. Conversation ceased. He used to communicate with his family well. We were all very close and the kitchen was the heart of our home. We always talked, laughed and joked. After FDIL entered the picture even when he was with us, he wasn't "with" us. He dropped out of school, stopped paying his debts, and neglected his first car, which he loved so much. But the worst personality change was that he turned on me. And I don't mean that he should have chosen me over FDIL. A man should leave his mother and cling to his wife, or something biblical like that. What I mean is that my once troubled, yes, but sweet DS had turned cold and evil. To me that's a serious personality change. And sadly, I do believe that FDIL is a huge part of it.
Quote from: themuffin on May 20, 2011, 09:24:14 AM
My DS even with his issues used to be very charming. He was always smiling or joking...he seemed happy. He was talkative and it was easy to get him to laugh. There use to be a light in his eyes. However, after hooking up with FDIL the light left. He always looked as if he had something heavy on his mind, you know like the kids needed braces, or the mortgage was due and he'd just lost his job, type of heavy. But he was only 21 and he had none of those problems. It became very rare to see him smile. Conversation ceased. He used to communicate with his family well. We were all very close and the kitchen was the heart of our home. We always talked, laughed and joked. After FDIL entered the picture even when he was with us, he wasn't "with" us. He dropped out of school, stopped paying his debts, and neglected his first car, which he loved so much. But the worst personality change was that he turned on me. And I don't mean that he should have chosen me over FDIL. A man should leave his mother and cling to his wife, or something biblical like that. What I mean is that my once troubled, yes, but sweet DS had turned cold and evil. To me that's a serious personality change. And sadly, I do believe that FDIL is a huge part of it.
Funny...that's how my ILs used to describe my DH's change whenever he was with his XW. That he was never the happy person he used to be, didn't laugh as easily, always depressed, lost that spark in his eyes. They even made a comment once when seeing a picture of the 2 of us together that you could just tell by his smile that he was sincerely happy, it was a different smile. And I do agree with all of that- he did kind of fall into a funk from being with her. Of course...now that he's with me and honestly so happy that he doesn't "lean" on them for so much support, they're best friends with his XW that was so awful. And I'm the bad DIL because...I make him so happy? I dunno, but I agree with you and Pen that sometimes the spouse does change (not in a good way) personality because of the time spent with their significant other. But you are also right that sometimes they don't change- their priorities and family life do and some families can't wrap their brains around the difference. My poor DH has suffered both.
Overwhelmed-You've got your priorities straight! You make DH very happy and that role is far more important than pleasing the ILs. It's too bad that they don't appreciate that. I always, always told me sons that I'd love whoever they love. I meant it. At the time I guess I thought whoever they loved would make them happy. FDIL doesn't seem to make DS happy at all, but still I tried to love her. I think I would love a DIL such as yourself even more, just because you make my DS happy. Isn't that what every good mother wants for her child?....Happiness. I don't understand how you can begrudge a person who's fulfilling your heart's wish.
I don't know you ILs and don't want to judge, but I think they resent that he's so happy with you, that he doesn't depend on them for happiness. Some parents do have a hard time letting go. They enjoy, even need the feeling that they use to get from their child on Xmas morning or birthdays. The feeling of being loved and cherished, and needed and appreciated by the person they've loved since the day they were born. Sometimes it's hard to be "replaced". I actually never thought of my DS getting married and having a family as being replaced. I also thought it would be additional love. It didn't work out that way for me.
Let them be friends with xw all they want. Your DH is your best friend, and you are his.
Hugs
Coming in late .....missing loads as I'm away chilling .......Do I have to worry about my DS ? By his own admission he has changed big time since he became a couple ! Where is the fun loving prankster ,who laughed and joked at everything ? Where are all his friends ? No more nights out with the boys ....etc . I haven't asked him the whys and where fors ,as I reckon if there is a problem ,he is old enough to.figure out what it is .However that doesn't stop me worrying that this forthcoming marriage may not be what he wants and he feels he's being pressed into this at an alarming rate of knots ! This wedding was booked before he saw the venue and agreed on a date .! I have never ventured any of these thoughts to anyone.I just hope he's made the right decision and will be happy .
LL: DS may think this is the "grown up" version and that being the out-with-the guys prankster was the "kid" in him. It may not be true, he may be being sold a bill of goods and he may need more time to get used to the changes, to see if they are authentic, I agree. But...it's his lesson to learn and he may not be able to get beyond the heady smell of white (wedding) roses. You could try to warm him of the possibility that his marriage is precipitous but from what we have learned on our site...he might immediately tell FDIL and you could find you have inadvertently declared war. It's so painful to watch our kids walk into the lion's den thinking a friendly house cat is in there. We were probably in the same spot more than once and didn't know it and our parents must have died 1000 deaths.
In retrospect, I'm sure my mom saw my Kamikaze first marriage for what it was but she probably also knew that I would never listen and would have to suffer the consequences of my headstrong lack of experience and wisdom, which I did. And, just to be fair, if I had listened and opted out...there would be no Kirk...the one constant in my life.
Life's a puzzlement...
Thanks Luise ,I always value your input .I wouldn't dream of saying anything to my DS ,we've already been through WW 111,not something I would.like to repeat ....but you know when you see that spark is no longer in those eyes ,my heart weeps for that happy boy that once was .
It could return. We have no crystal ball and we can keep out love and intention focused. Moms are powerful beings! :)
You always wish them the best ......but you're right Luise ,its his lesson to learn, and there's always my GD who lights up my life.....I hope you're right.
Quote from: lancaster lady on May 21, 2011, 02:22:27 PM
Thanks Luise ,I always value your input .I wouldn't dream of saying anything to my DS ,we've already been through WW 111,not something I would.like to repeat ....but you know when you see that spark is no longer in those eyes ,my heart weeps for that happy boy that once was .
LL, he's responsible for his own happiness as we all are, the day may come when he'll decide to put the sparkle back in his eyes, and then he'll have an accomplishment to be proud of. Good to hear that your GD lights up your life.
Quote from: themuffin on May 20, 2011, 06:20:14 PM
Overwhelmed-You've got your priorities straight! You make DH very happy and that role is far more important than pleasing the ILs. It's too bad that they don't appreciate that. I always, always told me sons that I'd love whoever they love. I meant it. At the time I guess I thought whoever they loved would make them happy. FDIL doesn't seem to make DS happy at all, but still I tried to love her. I think I would love a DIL such as yourself even more, just because you make my DS happy. Isn't that what every good mother wants for her child?....Happiness. I don't understand how you can begrudge a person who's fulfilling your heart's wish.
I don't know you ILs and don't want to judge, but I think they resent that he's so happy with you, that he doesn't depend on them for happiness. Some parents do have a hard time letting go. They enjoy, even need the feeling that they use to get from their child on Xmas morning or birthdays. The feeling of being loved and cherished, and needed and appreciated by the person they've loved since the day they were born. Sometimes it's hard to be "replaced". I actually never thought of my DS getting married and having a family as being replaced. I also thought it would be additional love. It didn't work out that way for me.
Let them be friends with xw all they want. Your DH is your best friend, and you are his.
Hugs
Thanks, Muffin. :) Sorry for the delayed response- just got a chance to come back to the boards. You've never met her, yet you seem to have my MIL down pat. It's pretty clear to outsiders, but when a family doesn't want to admit they have a problem (the whole family is like her), it doesn't matter what anyone else says. And you are right- thank you for reminding me, I have my best friend in the whole world and he has me to lean on. And it's not ideal, but it's enough.
If you want to keep a civil relationship with your dil and see your grandchild then I would bite the bullet and apologize. Just my opinion.
Kara,
LL has a very good relationship with her DS and DIL and sees her GD pretty often. She, actually, did not bite the bullet and apologize. She had an at times heated, heart-to-heart with DIL and at the moment things are much better. They both managed to work through issues they brought to the table and I think have moved on.
Perhaps I shoudl say "civil" relationship instead of "good" but my point was that it isn't always necessary nor warranted to apologize. LL hadn't done anything.
Quote from: Kara487 on May 23, 2011, 11:46:27 AM
If you want to keep a civil relationship with your dil and see your grandchild then I would bite the bullet and apologize. Just my opinion.
This is what blows my mind.. and it's not you Kara, this is a common suggestion. But without even fully knowing or understanding a situation why would anyone tell a person to "bite the bullet, if you want to see your grandchild"? In my world children were not used as weapons, I guess it's no-holds-barred in love and peace.
Psst! Laurie, I agree children shouldn't be "weapons." But how pathetic is this, I "bit the bullet" and apologized for this whole fiasco with DB/SIL because I want to be a part of their kids lives and they don't have them yet. :-\
Coming in here but on my phone .....forgive any wild spelling. firstly thankyou Holly for clarifying the situation ...you are so kind ..secondly Kara maybe you should read my history on the forum ,it helps before making any judgements ,respectfully .........I personally don't think anyone should bite the bullet . When two adults can discuss a situation calmly ,then no one loses face ,and hopefully all problems can be ironed out . An estranged family is a horrendous situation and should.be avoided at all costs . We worked at our situation until both parties were happy .....any friendship or marriage takes work .If the relationship is worth saving ,then its worth it .....
I apologize when I do something wrong, or even when I didn't mean to but may have inadvertantly did something wrong....but I don't apologize for things I didn't do. If to have a relationship with anyone, I have to lie...then that's not a relationship.
Exactly Pooh!
"I'd rather you hate me for who I am than love me for who I am not." Love that saying
Yep! That's it!
Quote from: Pooh on May 23, 2011, 01:57:31 PM
I apologize when I do something wrong, or even when I didn't mean to but may have inadvertantly did something wrong....but I don't apologize for things I didn't do. If to have a relationship with anyone, I have to lie...then that's not a relationship.
Thumbs up for this comment!
Quote from: pam1 on May 23, 2011, 02:01:18 PM
Exactly Pooh!
"I'd rather you hate me for who I am than love me for who I am not." Love that saying
there is a Texas version of that saying I think it's "I'd rather die on my feet then to live on my knees" ... lol.. just thought I'd toss that out there
Oh I like that one too!