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Problem Solving => Grandchildren => Topic started by: Nana on October 15, 2011, 06:39:51 PM

Title: Confused and sad
Post by: Nana on October 15, 2011, 06:39:51 PM
I had my babysitting day during the weekdays.  I havent seen my gc since last Sunday.  I saw my gd's arm and I saw a bite on my gd's arm (she is only 3).  I asked "Honey, what happened to you on your arm...who bite you?" She said "A boy in school".  She even gave me a name.  So I asked "Did it hurt? Did you cry?  What did you do? "
She said Ï push him"".  So I just gave her a kiss in the bite.    A little later, I said to my gs "Did you see what happened to your sis in school?, And to my surprise he said.... Yes my Mom Bit her because she hurt me on my chess and it got red.   So dear ladies...I was and am in shock....  My dil bit her?  I would have never imagined that could happened.  I just know I never did such a thing to my children.  I cannot judge her (and I am doing so) but ir hurt me to the core.   Then a relative came by and asked her what happened in her arm and she repeated Ä boy in school did it.    I feel so depressed.  I told my husband and it was a mistake to do so.  He wanted to call my son and asked him about it.  I beg for him not to do it.  I know things will get bad and the good relationship we have now will vanish and I have everything to lose.  My grandchildren are my drive. 

I am sure of it now because when that was happening my dil called to see how the children where .  This grandaugher asked me to speak to her and she said to her Mom "Mommy, remember when you bit me?  I dont know what she answered but grandaughter asked again "When will the bite vanish Mommy?  Dil know I was beside her.   

Now I know that dil knows I know.  I cant do nothing about it.  I know this is not her style.  I know that maybe she just lost it and is regretting it   Eveyone has the right to make a mistake dont you think so?  My husband things I am a coward....and probably  I am but have everything to lose if I confront her. 

Help ladies.....  I want to think that this is not a big deal....is it?

Love you all

Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Doe on October 15, 2011, 06:52:35 PM
Oh, Nana - what a position to be in!

I would tell her what you said :

"I know this is not your style.  I know that maybe you just lost it and are regretting it   Eveyone has the right to make a mistake dont you think so?"

Make is safe for her to tell you and I'm sure she'll appreciate it.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Nana on October 15, 2011, 06:55:54 PM
Thanks Doe....

First words I hear from the outside criteria.  We being in the family cannot be objective when we are dealing with our own dear ones.  My daughter (living with me) does not judge her but tells me that she is very sad...because we adore our little ones. 

You make me feel better.

God Bless you Doe
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Doe on October 15, 2011, 07:02:51 PM
(((((Nana)))))).  You've been so strong for so many of us and I'm sure you'll get some more good ideas.

I was thinking that the DIL must be upset and worried about what reaction she's going to get.  I was always able to get more information from my sons when I said that I wouldn't be mad, that I just wanted to get at the truth.  Your DIL needs some help from somebody if she's doing this to her babies you I'll bet you're the person offer that help.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Nana on October 15, 2011, 07:26:35 PM
It was a long way for dil and I to have a good relationship.  We got there and have been enjoying family time .  But I just know she doesnt like to be judged....or for family to intrude in their lives.  I know that if she knows we tell our son, she would not like it at all.    About my son, I feel he knows but now is their business to discuss their children's issues behind close doors.  Knowing my son, he must have reprimanded her but then this only they know.   

You see Doe....everything in life is perfect, until it isn't lol.   Why does something has to jump up when everything was running smoothley.    When I had problems with dil, this forum did not exist.  So now I have an advantage, I now have all you wise women to help me sort it out.

Oh God...I feel so depressed.  I am ashame to tell you about it because some of you have really hard issues to deal with compared with me....but we have been saying....pain is pain.

Love you Doe
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Pen on October 15, 2011, 08:36:51 PM
Nana, thinking of you (((hugs)))

Wouldn't it have been wonderful if DIL could have come to you beforehand and said, "Nana, I'm occasionally stressed out over these kids. Is this normal?" You could have reassured her that she's a wonderful mother and that all of us moms have had rough days. Then you could have offered to be there whenever she felt she needed to call, either to talk it out or take the kids for a couple of hours. I just know you wouldn't have judged her or expected her to suck it up and go it alone.

Why do so many of us DILs/MILs feel judged by our MILs/DILs? Why aren't we sisters in all of this?

You know, maybe that's how you can handle it..tell DIL it's normal to feel like losing it every now and again, parenting is hard work and you understand! But that she can always count on you to help if need be, either to listen or take the children and give her a bit of a break. Would she be amenable to your expressions of kindness and understanding or would she feel you were patronizing or judging her?

Nana, your issues are no less important than any here. I hope no one hesitates to mention something because they think it's not as critical as what someone else is going through, because you never know when it will help someone else.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Nana on October 16, 2011, 01:18:51 AM
Dear Pen

Thanks for your kind words.  You are right in that I may speak to her (dil.,  It may take a while because I have to digest this incident.   I am acting as if nothing had happen because I dont want to lose what I have gain in our relationship.   I feel that when we get to be together again for many hours (as we usually do every other Sunday) she may bring it up and it is when I can speak and tell her that good people sometimes do not do good choices when something stresses us up. 

Lets see what happens.  I just want my grandchildren to grow emotional and physically healthy.   

God Bless you Pen....and I wish for you the best.

Love you Pen
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: lancaster lady on October 16, 2011, 01:57:58 AM
dear Nana,

It's a pity you overheard that conversation between your DIL and GD , or you could pretend that you didn't .
I would have said ...how on earth did xxx get that mark on her arm ?
Also had she prompted her DD with a ready made up story about the boy at school ?
I am afraid I am very protective of my GD and I would have spoken as soon as I saw the mark .
When you do meet up , I would ask your GD how her arm is in front of your DIL , and say isn't it terrible
what little boys will do , and were the school aware of the incident.
It gives her the perfect opportunity to come clean and confess , thats if she did do it .
Rather than confront her directly, I can't believe she would bite her own DD's arm !
Sending hugs ....<>
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Doe on October 16, 2011, 07:14:04 AM
It can drive me mad if I think someone knows something about me but I'm not sure if they do because they don't say anything.  I would rather someone confront me if they are upset with me.  So I think Nana, you should just talk to her directly, in your own time, as you said.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Barbie on October 16, 2011, 08:20:30 AM
Dear Nana,

I wouln't want to be in your shoes right now. Not only is it bad that your DIL bit her but she's also teaching her DD to lie. I think you're doing the right thing by not rushing to ask her about the incident, I'm sure DIL is feeling pretty bad already and the fact that she knows you know is not helping. Wait a few days for things to cool off and see if she comes to you, this is not a pattern with her so even though you have every right to be sad that it happened you don't want to do anything to jeoperdice the relationship you two have now, in the meantime imagine having duct tape over your mouth, as Louise says.

I wish you luck, Nana. This too shall pass.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Pooh on October 16, 2011, 08:27:53 AM
I think Pen's approach might help you Nana.  What about asking by offering help?  Something like Pen said, "I was asking GD about her boo-boo and at first she said at school, then that Mommy bit her.  I didn't know what to say since she told 2 different stories, but I wanted you to know that if you ever need a break, I'm here to help.  I know being a Mom is hard and stressful and I want you to know I am here for you."

That opens it up for discussion if she chooses to talk, but also allows her an out if she doesn't want to.  If she doesn't, then leave it at that and just watch for more instances.  I think if she truly just had a bad moment, you will not see anything else.  If it's bad moments alot, there will be something else and then I wouldn't hesitate to approach her and DS.

You're a great Nana and I know you don't want to rock the boat after getting back into the relationship, but at the same time want to protect those GC.  That's why you are a great Nana because you think of everyone.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: pam1 on October 16, 2011, 09:03:13 AM
(((Nana))) My stomach just hit the floor, poor GD. 

I like Pen's approach as well.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Rose799 on October 16, 2011, 09:24:40 AM
I would like to think she's ashamed & embarrassed enough that nothing like that will happen again.  Approaching her in typical "Nana" style may bring the two of you even closer, Nana.  I wouldn't wait long though.  You don't want to leave an impression that she has control over you.  Having Nana as backup?  Wow, if only we could all be so lucky!  Love you, Nana
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Nana on October 16, 2011, 03:48:44 PM
Thank you all Wise Ladies.

Lancaster Lady....Yes I couldnt believe it either.  I know what you mean....I am a very confronting person but in this case....I am so scare I have to confess.  I care above all things in my gc's wellness, but I am not sure, in fact, I am almost sure they are not in danger (want to believe so).

Doe:  You just hit the nail....I would also be very uneasy if I knew someone new a close person new something bad I/ve done.  Wouldn't know how to approach her. 

Pen:  Great advice.....but as she knows that I know, she would feel I was not being direct or that I was setting her up.  Have to think about this one.

Yes Pooh, I dont want to rock the boat ....because it could even keep my grandchildren away and would not be able to see after them.

  Baarbie:  I also feel that I dont like my granddaughter to lie...but I am impressed how she is covering mom....she is only three.  Remember her brother was the one who told me first.


Pam...yes my stomach and heart felt to the floor....Today I am feeling just a little better... digesting it.

Rose-- I agree that she migh feel ashame to even bring it up.    I am glad they didnt come today (sometimes they come on Sunday) because I am not prepared yet.  Its like a process.

I love you all very much.....you are my heart sisters.  IMy husband dont want to talk about it because he felt I tight his hands in doing something.  On the other hand my daughter gets very sad ...so I only have you.  Cant vent this with other family or friends. 

I dont want to cause a bad impression on you.  I would have done something regardless of the consequences if I knew that my grandchildren were in danger...or I might be in denial. 
I will keep you posted.

Love you
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: lancaster lady on October 16, 2011, 04:13:25 PM
Nana .....now you've had time to think things over , I'm sure you will do the right thing. I hope it was a one off spare of the moment thing and she herself is horrified . I also hope your gd is ok and doesn't think it will happen again .who knows what goes on in their little minds.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Rose799 on October 16, 2011, 05:30:37 PM
As evidenced here at WWU, every family has issues, Nana.  This only proves that yours is no exception.  I can understand dh wanting to intervene, but think it may be best left between you & dil.  I'm just sorry anyone is put in this position.  ((hugs))
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Ruth on October 16, 2011, 05:53:14 PM
Oh Nana!   I'm so distressed for you right now.  I also want to share with you something similar that happened in my family over the w/e before I give you my opinion on this.   

This w/e DD had plans to go to a wedding, a very big affair, and she had made plans for her semi-estranged DF to come in from out of state (at his request) for a visit with the g/s (grandsons) and  to spend a little time with them, stay overnight and supervise while she was at the wedding.  About 5 pm Sat I got a call from younger g/s (ygs) and he was very upset, we are close and he told me what had happened. Grandpa had gone off on the boys and became verbally abusive to them, he also ridiculed ygs, telling him he was fat and lazy, while this is unthinkable enough, there is more.  He got his stuff together and departed, without telling them goodbye and without even calling DD and giving her any heads up.  I have said before here what special boys my g/s are, I'm not saying that because they're mine, their just wonderful boys who have never been any disciplinarian problem for anyone.  They are easy, and considerate boys.  This was just insane.  But a flood of memories came back to me that had been lost before, and I remembered the abuse from the years we were married, and I saw the clear connection to my DS and his contempt of me. 

I think you must deal with this bite seriously, dear Nana, as its serious business.  The line has been crossed into abuse, and unless their is intervention and accountability the risk is being run that next time the blow will be harder.  DIL is a mother who needs help.  It doesn't make her a bad person, but just someone who cannot cope with small children well enough.  Please get some advice and you and DH both need to talk with someone.  I'm sorry Nana, but I think no one bites a little girl without there being some serious issues that put the child at risk.  Do you have a minister you could talk with?  I'm so glad you are there for the g/c as a support, and for your gentleness and patience and wisdom.  If anyone is up to this, you are Nana.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Begonia on October 16, 2011, 07:10:33 PM
My heart goes out to you.  And the advice here is so good. It's such a difficult place.  Your poor GD, so little and innocent.  I do agree you have to bring it up and it occurs to me to just speak your truth about knowing you have to do the right thing and speak to DIL but feeling
so worried that it will cause a problem.  The bottom line is the sweet GD.  So many times we just pretend nothing is wrong.  How I wish my GM would have stood up for me, maybe things would have been different in my FOO.  Peace and love to you for the right path. 
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Nana on October 17, 2011, 01:50:49 AM
Lancaster Lady

I have been thinking things over.  As a matter of fact, cant take this incident out of my mind.  And Yes, maybe she is horrified (as well as I) of what she did.    I know we all have things we did we regret but cant take them back.    Still thinking about speaking to her or not.  You see, I know her, and I feel she might not like me interfering.  I have to find the right time.   Sometimes we talk as friends...and probably would be the moment to mention it.
But still I am so scared...  doesnt feel good to keep my mouth shut...and doesnt feel good to speak. 
It is a no win situation.

Thanks for your support LL.

Love
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: lancaster lady on October 17, 2011, 02:24:39 AM
Thing is Nana , the longer you leave it the harder it will be to mention. I understand your dilemma , I would just ask  if her arm was any.better and see the response ..give her the opportunity to clarify things without any confrontation........you are the best Nana any child could hope for and hopefully she.knows you are concerned for the wee one ..
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: lancaster lady on October 17, 2011, 02:27:15 AM
Awkward for you Nana , but your heart is in the right place.We love you and I hope she does too .....x
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Nana on October 17, 2011, 05:33:03 AM
Lancaster Lady

How sweet of you.  Thanks a lot.  As you see it is so late now and I cant sleep.  It is 5 AM.  My heart is in the right place but in turmoil.  Very good idea asking about asking how is her arm lol.  I'm having a nervous laughter.  Imagine....I am very transparent in my looks....guess she will notice what is in the back of this question.   

Begonia:  You are so right....someone have to be the child's voice.  Just afraid it was a one time deal and I am making a big problem here.  And you are also right...sometimes it is so hard for us to accept that we prefer to act as if nothing has happened.  That is why I feel so confused.  If my dil gets angry at me and distanced my gc ...how can see after them, having them away.  So many things involved.  Thanks for such a valuable advice. 

Dear Ruth....thanks for sharing your story.  Yes, its serious business.  I also think that my gc are wonderful...they truly are.   My gd is very intelligent....but she sometimes acts defiant with Mommy.  She is usually very sweet...and is always telling us she loves us.  She is very close to her mom.  But I am almost positive dil would have never bitten her 5-year old son regardless.    He is the apple of her eyes.  That is what makes it worse.  I am a catholic and could speak to a priest.  On the other hand, my dil has a very strong character and she is bossy.  I do think as well, that she has some issues in her life, but I wouldnt dare tell her she needs help lol.  Thanks for all the nice adjectives you gave me....wish I deserved them but sure make me feel good.....or should I say great.

Dear Rose...Yes I dont want my husband to intervene because he is wonderful but very direct.  To make things worse, hubby is a doctor and is all against violence or abuse.  He would be very direct ....I had to beg him not to say anything.  Of course he told me that I was a coward.  I said "Whatever, just please dont get us into trouble, I need my gc near".  So he just said " Ök..from now on, never tell me anything like that and tie my hands".     So you see....  I feel in the middle of "no place". 

I love you all wise ladies.... you are great...what would I do without you all. 

Will keep you posted. 

Good night.  It is 5.32 A.M. here in California.

Love
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Ruth on October 17, 2011, 05:42:50 AM
I'm no stranger to the computer screen at 5 a.m. either, Nana.  This is a big problem, and you need great wisdom in dealing with it.  We will pray for you to have the wisdom and the right door to open.  God is even more concerned than you, and his shoulders are huge.  Try and not fret about it but just wait for the answer to come to you.   Even Mary 'kept these things and pondered them in her heart' for a time.  Women, mothers and nanas, have to be pack mules so much of the time.  but we are the ones who get the job done by the grace of God.  love to you.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Doe on October 17, 2011, 10:13:36 AM
Oh, I was up till 5am, too!  I should have gotten onto the computer.

Nana, I think you should speak to your DIL asap.  If I'm not mistaken, your DH is required by law to report abuses that he knows about, so he really is in a bad situation here.  Don't be afraid to talk to her.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: lancaster lady on October 17, 2011, 10:45:43 AM
Ruth :

How those boys of yours are ok ...how distressing to have them phone you .
They know you are there when they need you , what a comfort .
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: pam1 on October 17, 2011, 04:41:03 PM
Nana, I know this is hard for you but I think it has to be done, it's that important.  I like LL's suggestion of asking how her arm is.  And maybe an ice breaker of a time you regretted as a parent to show her you know where she is coming from. 

It's a difficult situation and you'll be in my thoughts, Nana.  I'm just glad you're there to look out for that little girl.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Ruth on October 17, 2011, 04:51:09 PM
Dear Nana your dilemma has been on my mind so much.  I will be thinking of you tonight and hope you are not up at 5 a.m., with the weight of the world on your shoulders.  It would have been much better if little g/d went to nursery school and a teacher saw this, she would have had to report it and you could have kept clear, I would expect this would not be handled with a heavy hand, I used to be a volunteer GAL and we assessed these situations on their own merit with much time spent in families with a team, and it was so often a healing process whereby the family came out stronger on all counts, at least that is what I strove for with my cases.  My thoughts are with you nana.

LanLady, thank you for asking about g/s.  It was surprising but the ygs accepted this bad behavior more as a spectator, and was not cut to the heart the way he used to be when being bullied in the public school system.  His self esteem has grown and he's not the fragile kid he used to be, but it is just such a shock for a g/c to be mistreated by a g/p.  That is rare and they just expect warm fuzzies, but he told dm that he wanted nothing more to do with gf.  He won't trust him again.  Is the moving out date still set L Lady?
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: lancaster lady on October 18, 2011, 12:53:53 AM
Hi Ruth ,
Three weeks and counting .
however they moved out to dogsit at her FOO 10 days ago and haven't come back !
I really don't think she wants to come back , we left on good terms but somehow I get the feeling
she doesn't want to be here . No idea what we've done this time , plus there isn't long to go
This from Shelby on another thread about her DIL :Quote

. She is willing to tolerate us, is always civil, but no warmth or effort to establish any bonds.  It was puzzling to us at first - we kept wondering what we had done wrong - and kept on trying to be friendly.  Finally we realized she doesn't want much of a relationship with DS family.  And so it goes . . .

this is my DIL to a T !

So whatever we do is useless ! I contacted my DS yesterday to ask if they would be returning yesterday .
He said he might , but she isn't ! However no one arrived , so the dog had a nice chicken dinner .
Common courtesy would be great don't you think ?
This is one of those times when I could blow a stack , however like the rest of us MIL's we remain silent , to keep the peace !
My DIL hasn't contacted me for over 10 days , now I know how it's going to be when they do move out ....SILENCE !
If I do text her to ask when they will be back , how would she see that ?
Nuisance , pressure , none of my business ? Like Pooh  said I'm tired of playing these games !

Nana :

Sorry for the hijack ....it's a sore point .... :(
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Nana on October 18, 2011, 02:03:03 AM
Thanks Pam for your words.  I am feeling somehow better.  At did a lot of sleeping today...I feel I just want to escape.   Have not spoken to dil....have to wait....I have to be ready.  How terrible is feeling afraid...and that is my feeling now.   

Ruth...thanks for keeping me in your thoughts....  It is now almost 2 a.m. but I will jump into bed right now.  I slept a lot  during the day....I needed it.  I was here in the forum almost at 5.00 last night...and afraid this doesnt help.    I havent seem dil yet...probably on the weekend.  I will have my gc to babysit on Friday...just dying to see them and hug and kiss them.    I am so sorry for what is happening with your grandson... and also that he is becoming stronger.   I wish the best for you too and your family.

Lancaster Lady.  I dont feel you Hj my post.  We are all together and share our experiences. 
Dont worry about your dil....let her enjoy her 5 minutes of glory...she will need you and will come back.  You have done everything you can for them and deserve much better.  Sorry that we sometimes cannot get what we deserve.  But our conscious is at pease and our hearts filled with love.  Dil is very lucky to have you but doesnt see it.    Hope you get news from them soon....

Will keep you posted. 

You know  I love you all...my dear friends.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Pooh on October 18, 2011, 06:08:57 AM
I'm so sorry Nana.  I know this weighs on your heart.  I want to tell you something and in no way am I defending what happened, but my Mom told me she bit my brother when he was about 4 or 5 hard enough to leave a mark.  She said she didn't think she bit him that hard, but it left a mark and she felt horrible and cried and cried about doing it.  He was biting everyone, kids..adults and she couldn't break him from it.  Tried everything, time outs, taking toys, spanking his bottom and yet he kept doing it.  So she was frustrated and when he bit someone again, she said she told him if he bit one more person, she was going to bite him to show him how much it hurt.  The next day, he took a chunk out of my GM and she snatched him up and bit him on the arm before she even thought.  She said he cried, she cried and she felt terrible about it.  She did it out of frustration but regretted it.  She never did anything like that again and he quit biting.

So your instinct about that this is something hinky and not normal for DIL is probably right on.  She shouldn't have done it, but she may be regretting it terribly like my Mom did.   My Mom was so not a child abuser, just made a mistake.  I still think you need to ask about her arm just to see her reaction.  You have good instincts and even if she doesn't discuss it, I think you will get a good feel about the situation and know if it is something that warrants watching closer.  The longer you worry about this, the worse you are going to feel until you ask. 

LL, bless your heart.  Don't you hate when we know something will happen, but yet we try to be optomistic and then it happens and you beat yourself up again because you knew it all along?  That is what makes us different from the people we are having issues with.  We believe in chances and change.  I wouldn't cook anything else for them.  I wouldn't ask them anything.  If they show up without telling you, they can eat a bologna sandwich.....on a paper plate....that they fix!
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: pam1 on October 18, 2011, 07:23:36 AM
Bites can leave marks pretty fast and easily.  Especially if someone is an easier bruiser.  I think all parents have done something they regret, I know I have. 

The problem is when it is a pattern of out of control behavior.  There is a chance this is just a one off.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Pooh on October 18, 2011, 07:35:37 AM
I think so too.  I knocked my OS into the entertainment center one time before I even had a chance to think.  He was 14, had already outgrown me and was arguing with me about cleaning his room.  He told me he didn't have to any more, I couldn't make him and I looked down and he had his fist balled up like he was thinking of swinging at me.  Before I even thought, I punched him straight in the chest knocking him into the entertainment center and telling him I didn't care how big he was, that he better not ever ball his fist up at me again or I would take him down.

If you guys really knew me, you would be in shock that I did that.  I had not even spanked either kid since they were like 6, and then it was just swats on the hiney.  I also discussed problems with my kids, told them their options and consequences and did groundings and time-outs.  I was in shock that I did it and so was he.  This was a kid that I never had discipline problems with and was a very good kid.  I did it before I thought because although his Dad never hit me, he had a bad habit of hitting things when he was angry.  Walls, medicine cabinets, concrete (idiot) and all I could think of was OS was going to start that and I wanted to break it quick.  I did apologize later about what I had done, after we both finished crying and he never balled his fist up again, and I never laid another hand on either of them.  I went to my Mother crying about it a couple of days later and confessed what I had done.  She just looked at me and said, "With some boys, there comes a time when they think they are bigger and badder than you, and try to test it.  If you had told me he did that and you just took it, I would have told you that you should have knocked him in the teeth to teach him a lesson. You did good."

It sounds like my Mother and I are such violent people....which is so far from the truth....
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Doe on October 18, 2011, 07:44:22 AM
Oh, Pooh - no - y'all don't sound violent at all.

I'll bet that a writing a thread on all the things we did to our children would be such a cathartic action.  Your honesty makes me want to do that but I'm still embarrassed about some things.   Maybe one day...
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: pam1 on October 18, 2011, 07:45:35 AM
I can relate, Pooh.  I'm not a spanker, usually just a talker.  Couple years ago DD screamed at me and smushed my face, instantly and instinctively I smacked her right in the mouth.  Like a reflex.  I apologized too and feel terrible to this day. 

But I also think these kind of things can happen, particularly when a parent is stressed.  Talking to my friends they have all had similar moments so maybe taking in this DILs behavior as a whole and continue watching is a good course.  I think also offering to help her out, take a load off might do wonders for her. 
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Ruth on October 18, 2011, 08:00:11 AM
Well Doe, in reply to your post about a cathartic thread, I'm going to tell you all the darkest secret I have, the thing that has been my secret horror all these years.  I am deeply ashamed of this and after all these years (15 years) I still cannot possibly look any one even my closest family member in the face and tell them this.  I had recently divorced from my childrens' father.  I had custody of both children, and if any of you have read my posts you know the dynamics of DS, he held me in open contempt then even at age 9.  I was a lost person at that time, there was no one to help  me and I was trying everything in me to get a handle on the chaos in my life and my children's lives, but nothing was working of course.  One day (I don't remember specifics as what was happening) but DS was verbally abusing me as it often was, either silence or verbal abuse - there was really nothing in between - and he spit in my face.  I grabbed a belt before I could see daylight, and whipped him hard.  It left a bruise on his thigh.  Blank after that, but I know the next day I got a call from the school system that I had been reported to DSS.  I was called in and had to face that charge.  I went back to my apartment, and signed the papers to give my ex custody of DS, and shut myself up inside there for 3 days, I didn't eat anything or talk to any one.  No one came and checked up on me.  All I did was cry.  That was the beginning of what brought me here, and all the years of grief in my life, and self hated. 

This is why I said, Nana, that if DIL needs help, I didn't want it to escalate to the point where a good Mom did something she would hate herself for.  I was also reared with the 'bite a biter back' and I don't know that I even have a problem with that, but Nana you know whether this was the case or not.

I worked as a vol GAL for a good while, and finally had to give it up because it dredged up the memory or that terrible experience too often.  I had compassion (as an abused child) for both the child and the parent who was really often just a stressed out person who lost it, and didn't have enough resources or strength to take care of the problem, or didn't have training in what to do with a very very strong willed, aggressive child.   It grieves me that parents carry these scars their whole lives in many cases and it really destroys their lives, I can tell you.  I would have been better off dead after that incident, it wasn't the only time I disciplined my DS with force, but it was the worst time. 

Now you all can see that I'm not such a sweetie, I said before I made big mistakes.  but I had such a job description in raising an aggressive, hostile child with a DH who was equally hostile and aggressive.  I can have some compassion for myself now but it took many years.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Pooh on October 18, 2011, 08:00:50 AM
Thanks Doe and Pam.  I would be willing to bet there isn't a parent out there that hasn't done something, either in a state of anger, shock or fear that doesn't regret it.  I think it is totally normal.  Doesn't mean I wouldn't take it back and handle it differently now, but at the time, I did it before I thought. 

My Mother, when she slapped me that time and yes I still remember it vividly, was because she dropped me at the Mall when I was 15.  I knew I wasn't supposed to leave, but I did, with two boys I knew from school.  One had a new car and offered to take me riding in it.  I knew I shouldn't, I was terrified of getting caught...but he was cute and promised to have me back before time for Mom to pick me up.  Yeah well, he ended up driving way up into another County.  I was yelling at him the entire time that I needed to get back and he refused.  He pulled over, got handsy and I pitched a fit on him, threatening to beat the crap out of him and then tell all my guy friends!  I was an athletic tomboy who had lots of guy friends on the baseball, soccer and football team and he knew it.  So he got mad and dropped me at a gas station in another county!  It was like the walk of death to have to call my Mom from that payphone.  I was already 30 minutes past time for her to pick me up.  Let's just say when she got there, she was in a state of panic because she had been looking for me and I think I had her imprint of her palm for a week on the side of my face.  When I got in the car, she slapped me so hard then reached over and hugged me crying.  To this day, she says she regrets slapping me but was terrified.  To this day, I regret doing it and the 12 week grounding I got from it! Lol.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: pam1 on October 18, 2011, 08:10:29 AM
Ruth, it's very brave of you to talk about this.  Thank you.  I think so many parents have a story and carry regret, it's hard to talk so openly b/c of the fear and shame that is associated with it all.  Being able to talk about it brings so many people together and brings healing. 

And Pooh, my Dad slapped me once too but I think I deserved it.  I was a teenager and my mom was sick again, so going to her house on her week I was the adult, cooking, cleaning, watching the younger children.  I'd go back to my dads and just be exhausted and moody and well, just a teen.  One time I mouthed off and complained about taking care of mom and her house and my dad got this look in his eye I'll never forget and reached across the table and nailed me, he got up and said I should appreciate every moment I have with her.  I'll never forget it to this day, it woke me up and was probably the only thing that would have got through to me at that time.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Pooh on October 18, 2011, 08:12:28 AM
Oh dear Ruth.  This is what you have carried around all these years?  I can only imagine the stress you were under at the time with the divorce and then he spit in your face.  Ok, so you may have wore him out a little too hard, but I probably would have slapped him so hard for that before I even though.  I used to get whipped by GP with switches that left welts.  Not that he really hit me that hard, but those things left welts regardless.  That was what his generation did.  Not making excuses, but my parents and partially mine, were generations of belters.  I remember my friends getting the belt.  My Mother chose not to, but plenty of my friends got them.

We learn with each generation and there are accepted practices in each generation.  I got my mouth washed out with soap once...but I would never do that to my kids.  That was something that was done when I was growing up.  Look what I did to my OS.  I'm so sorry that you went through all that and signed him over because of that.  I am sure at the time you were doing what you thought was the right thing for him and questioning your own parenting ability after that incident.  I so wish you had a support system for yourself when that was happening.  But you know what?  You have us now and are loved so much.

Ok, we made mistakes.  You did, I did and you have to forgive yourself.  We own up that we are human, that we did something that we regret and we forgive ourselves.  We make apologies to those we love and they either accept them or they don't.  That's ok.  If they don't accept the apology, then we move on knowing we did our best. 

Thank you for sharing Ruth as I am sure that was very hard for you to do.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Ruth on October 18, 2011, 08:14:18 AM
I saw that scene so vividly in my mind, Pam.  Thank you for telling this.  I hope that if we all can unlock these secrets, maybe it can help other people heal and slay those dragons that steal steal steal.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: lancaster lady on October 18, 2011, 08:32:58 AM
Kids can be monsters and will push you to bursting point ! That and the fact that most of the time we moms have to be both parents through different consequences, no wonder our patience runs out occasionally . Most kids will admit they deserved a whack ! Problem is they.continue their nonsense till adulthood, then the real problems occur .
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Pooh on October 18, 2011, 08:42:16 AM
Totally LL.  Boils down right back to taking personal responsibility.  I think those of us that do take responsibility for our actions will say, "I deserved every whipping and whacking I got."  Because I did.  I wasn't a discipline problem, but I was sneaky and mischievious.  I know I had to have drove my Mom nuts because I had a second child, just like me.  And I take personal responsibility for the actions I did to my own children. 

I have issues with the OS now, not because I hit him in the chest once, but because he takes no personal responsibility for anything he does.  Once I got that through my head, I was able to forgive myself.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Pooh on October 18, 2011, 09:06:14 AM
Sorry Nana for hijacking your thread.  I was just hoping that some of these stories might help put your mind at ease and give you a sense of direction to go.  I know it's hard for you to decide what to do.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Begonia on October 18, 2011, 10:24:16 AM
Reading all these posts really gets me to thinking about all this.  So many of you wonderful women and your stories just make my heart cry for myself and for all of us who strive to be so perfect and humanely fall short. I grew up with "spankings" and my mother wringing her hands while my father doled out the discipline with a belt or once a hairbrush. And I have lost patience with my children and given a few spankings until I realized I did not have to carry on that legacy. I feel quite certain that neither of my AC have ever used spankings on GC, as we have discussed this and how bad I feel about it.  They use things more proper like the Naughty Chair or Time Out.

But I think the essence of all this is the shame we carry.  First because of feeling we must be really bad if our parents spank us and then because of repeating that behavior in our own families. I think it's very difficult for women to be aggressive or violent--we really have to be at our wits end.  And like you say, Ruth and others, we then spend all the rest of our years feeling shameful.  It really has clouded my life.  At five years old my DS and a little friend started a fire that could have been horrific.  My son was fascinated with fire.  I went a little crazy with imagining that we all would have been dead.  I took a match, lit it, blew it out and touched his hand with it.  It didn't burn but he said OUCH. I said, "See how dangerous matches are?"  He never played with matches again, but that event haunts me.  How could I even do such a thing?  Horrible mother.  So the shame of these things we carry with us maybe shines light on our humanness and  helps light the way for others who will stop and think before their patience runs out. 

That's why we have to take the shame out of it by acknowledging it.  Just by the fact that we are here on this forum, struggling to help each other be better people is evidence enough that we are good people.  Bless all of you and Nana...perhaps you have been given this issue because you can light the way for your DIL.  Obviously you love her and care a lot about her.  Thanks for posting this so we can share our own painful stories.  Love to you all
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: alohomora on October 18, 2011, 12:03:46 PM
Quote from: Doe on October 15, 2011, 06:52:35 PM
Oh, Nana - what a position to be in!

I would tell her what you said :

"I know this is not your style.  I know that maybe you just lost it and are regretting it   Eveyone has the right to make a mistake dont you think so?"

Make is safe for her to tell you and I'm sure she'll appreciate it.

Best advice I've read in this thread. Truly. DIL knows you know. Kids tend to be blabber mouths and tell things. She must have figured one of them would tell you, or like OP said, knows you were next to GC when they were on the phone.

If you bring it up, don't pretend you don't know. Don't play games with her. It'll just make her resent you. If yo udo bring it up, what the above poster said is really a great idea. I might use the approach on my own MIL the next time she flips her top.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: pam1 on October 19, 2011, 07:24:13 AM
I'm reposting this for Ruth, it was in another thread.  I think she meant to post it here :) 

"Nana, helloooo....are you there???  I'm not sure if I have this post in the right place, but I'll try anyway.  I looked for you first thing this morning!  You've been in my thoughts and prayers a lot.  Nana, you have embodied the ideal intermediary, IMO,  being faced with one of the most perplexing and painful of problems.  Many would have reacted with outrage at what you saw on your g/c, an ugly bite inflicted by an angry parent, and would have thought of retaliation and consequences only.  But you have been brave and willing to suffer yourself as you agonize over what is to the best response.  You  neither condemned the Mom nor minimized the damage to the child.  I admire you Nana and hope you know that sharing your story could have helped more people than you will ever know.  People read these posts online who never register or write.   And the follow up from many of us who shared our own secrets may have reinforced your judgment of your DIL as someone under stress, rather than a piece of trash.  Who knows (I'm reaching out here onto a thin limb) but had you not had these own senseless struggles with your a/c you would not have ended up here at WW, and your influence would be missing.  It would have been a great loss."
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Pen on October 19, 2011, 09:07:38 AM
My parents never spanked (well, once maybe.) They used emotional abuse, the silent treatment and shaming instead. I think I'd rather have gotten spanked.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Ruth on October 19, 2011, 02:41:44 PM
You know, Pen, speaking from my own experience as both a daughter and a mother, I don't even think its so much a matter of what we, or they,  DID, as much as it is what we choose to do and become as we (or if we) became enlightened.  My own parents could have turned the world around in my eyes, by delighting me with just some new and more positive interaction and support, as the parent of an a/c.  I have for sure worked on this with my own a/c, I don't think there is just this one brief shot at making it as a parent.  Life should always be renewing itself,  don't you think?
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Nana on October 20, 2011, 01:50:26 AM
Oh Dear Ruth...Thanks a lot for your words.  And am so flattered that you have been thinking about me and my problem. I love you so much.   I am doing much better now but have not posted because I had a lot of work to do --and thank God for that, cause it kept my mind busy...and distracted my painful thougts.  I did really try not to judge dil, because I dont know how things presented and gave way to this happening.   And because I am so imperfect, and not always do what I have to do.  I am very intense in my feelings, I can jump and scream of happiness, I can get real angry at times, I cry easily.  But I do have a lot of love which I give away as if they were peanuts.  I am always ready to apologize and to forgive --that I do give myself.  But Ruth....you as some others in this forum make me feel so good and special--and it is chicken soup for my soul.  I love you very much.

So there is not much of an update.  I havent seen gc since last Friday.  So today dil called me and asked me if I could babysit for her baby (baby is only 9 months old).  The other two are at pre-school.  She told me that her mother had to go to the dentist and she is the one who babysits the baby from Monday thru Thursday (Fridays are mine lol).  She was so sweet and nice to me.  She told me what the eldest gc wanted to wear for Halloween and so on.  Acted as if nothing had happened and so did I (I'm sorry)   So I of course, said  Yes.  I'm desperate to see my little one.

I spoke to a very close cousin....and confided in her what had happened.  She listened attentively and told me that once she was taking care of her two gd's and one was biting the other, so she took the arm of the offender (lol) and gave her a small bite, saying "So you can feel what your sister feels".  She said she did not do it out of anger ....and that she left a mark on her arm too.  She told the gc's parents and they kind of laugh and just said "Mother....dont do that"  and nothing really happened.  She advice me to let it go this time. 

Also Ruth, my dil has a very fair skin and bruises easily....so I dont know what to think.  I think I will eventually talk to her about the incident but this has to be in person.  They usually come on weekends and have breakfast or lunch with us.  So it could be a good moment.   

All of you wise ladies are awesome, couldn't ask for better sisters. 

Love

Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Ruth on October 20, 2011, 08:08:16 AM
Nana this is just such a hot topic in society today, that I was and am hesitant to say this, because it's usually construed and some kind of denial and you get hammered about it, but my children are very very fair and delicate skinned, and you could just bump them when they were small and it left a bruise.  To this day, as much as I despise my disciplinary actions as a mother and trust me I have reaped the whirlwind for it in self torture, I think in all honesty that probably the force I used wasn't quite what I imagine I remember, they took a bruise in a second.  This is something I don't think is really fair in the judicial system re. abuse, because it varies.  But even having said that, I don't ever believe its right to bruise a child, (but forgive me ladies....I still can have an opinion and I'm of the old school and) I think when a child is showing a parent open contempt and hurls a load of verbal garbage out, a spanking may be the best medicine...I'm just saying......!   But I only used spanking for beligerance when my kids were small, never for forgetting to do something they were told, etc.  My g/s have never had a spanking, and have even only a few times been sent to their room for a time out.  DD doesn't tolerate any mutiny on her bounty, and I think if they had it coming she would have given it to them!  They just were always really compliant boys,  easy to please and low key. 
And as I said in previous post, dear Nana, I don't know that I think its a bad thing to deal with a biter that way.  Just observe Nana, you have good instincts and I believe personally that if you see a problem escalate, you'll know what and when to do it.  now then, enjoy the baby & work on the Halloween costumes.  DH and I decided that this year we're going to let our maltipoo go as a dog!
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: pam1 on October 20, 2011, 08:18:06 AM
Ruth, very true.  I have a fairly dark complexion so I didn't have much experience with it until some of my younger half sibs.  They would be covered in bruises - from each other!  I'd watch them have a toddler throw down, I'd break it up  and they walk away red and marked up, then turn into a bruise not too much longer.   I used to be a nervous wreck when my stepmom would pick them back up, finally spoke to her and she laughed and showed me her bruises (she's very pale too) and said her kids all inherited it from her...no biggie.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Purple Room on October 24, 2011, 11:00:07 PM
Havent any of you heard that a most effective way, often when all else fails, of stopping a child from biting others is to bite them yourself. You should find out the facts before jumping to conclusions.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Doe on October 25, 2011, 12:12:30 AM
If you read the original post, the gs said that mom bit gd because gd hit gs.   My biggest concern out of this is that the gd might mention this at school and then the Soc Services machine would kick into gear. 
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Purple Room on October 25, 2011, 12:16:58 AM
Quote from: Nana on October 15, 2011, 06:39:51 PM
Yes my Mom Bit her because she hurt me on my chess and it got red.   
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: lancaster lady on October 25, 2011, 01:38:51 AM
Thing is , we dont know how the little girl hurt her brother , if.it was a bite a push or a smack . The Mom  shouldn't have.made up a story to cover her tracks if it was all innicent . Anyway imo I think kids will fight all day long and still be best buds at the end of the day , all hurts forgotten . That's how this should have been dealt with ,with a light reprimand from Mom . When adults. get involved it tends to get more serious ...........What say you Nana ? Hope all is well in your camp.      ;D
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: lancaster lady on October 25, 2011, 07:14:32 AM
please excuse spelling in last post .....moby can't spell very well .......Love you Nana
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: amflautist on October 25, 2011, 07:44:12 AM
I always know when you are using moby ,because he misplaces the punctuation !

love you LL
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: lancaster lady on October 25, 2011, 07:45:49 AM
 :-[ :-[ :-[
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Nana on October 25, 2011, 01:38:05 PM
Dear Purple Room

With all due respect...if something I didnt do was to jump into conclusions.  By all means I was trying to justified dil...especially for my peace of mind.   My gs told me that her sister had hurt him in the chest...and that it was red, he even showed me his chest...he didnt seem red now.  I didnt asked him how had he hurt him...I was shocked.....and it didnt matter to me if it was a bite or not.  Still this was new to me.   I sometimes got impatient when I was raising my own children, but never occurred to me to bite them.  So I was all confused.

Update
:  I havent spolen to dil about incident.  I had gc again Friday all day but as if nothing had happened.   My son called his father Sunday night.  The three children were vomiting.  The funny thing is that it couldnt have been what they ate because the baby is not eating regular good.  So it was a virus they all got.  My dil took a leave to be with them, and they are doing better.   They also had fever....poor little ones.

Love you all ladies.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Purple Room on October 25, 2011, 11:23:53 PM
Sorry Nanna but if you havent talked to DI about what happened you are forming conclusions even if you are being supportive,positive and kind about it.

Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Nana on October 26, 2011, 03:25:48 AM
Dear Purple:

Thank you for your input.  You could be right....but it did happened and I felt horrible about it.  I do admit that as much as I tried not to judge her, I did have many doubts in my head. 

Dil has not mentioned it, inspite of the fact that she knows for sure that I know.  So I feel she just doesnt  to talk about it....but again I am jumping into conclsions,  am I not?  But I know in my heart, that someday we will talk about it.     I just feel dear Purple, that life is too complicated to look for more trouble.   But anyway I will be watching! lol


Love you Purple
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Pooh on October 26, 2011, 10:39:47 AM
Hang in there Nana.  I hope the children feel better soon.  We all jump to conclusions when faced with situations where we are trying to sort out what to do.  I do it all the time as part of my mental process of how best to handle something.  I'm always what if this, what if that when faced with something.  It prepares me mentally for and different scenarios for when I can get the facts.  I had a squirrel doing a dance on the side of the road this morning, and I immediately jumped to the conclusion that the little booger was going to wait until I got up beside him and bolt in front of my car so I slowed down.  He didn't.  He gave me an evil look and ran back into the woods. 

I think it's great that you are exploring all kinds of possibilites so you can be prepared.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Purple Room on October 27, 2011, 10:18:04 PM

I intended to tell a couple of stories about children biting but a computer glitch made my reply shorter and more terse than I intended.

Often children do bite other children on the chest - through their clothing. It is really painfull but does not show a bite mark because of the clothing. Just suppose that is what happened and when you looked there was no mark because the redness had vanished so gd wondered when the mark on her would vanish as well. - Just a thought and also fits the description you gave.

Children biting others can be a real problem.

I was having my hair cut recently when the hairdresser received a phone call from her child's daycare informing her that her child had bitten 10 other children. She (hairdresser) became distraught and went on and on about how she had tried to stop the biting and someone had told her to bite her child but she didn't want  to do it. (She totally made such a mess of my hair cut too)

A friend of mine had a child who used to bite, she was given the same advise and didn't do it because she thought her child would grow out of it and it didn't seem like a loving thing to do. Her child didn't stop biting and eventually was expelled from school because of it.

Another friend of mine who is a retired teacher- who asked me what had happened to my hair - on hearing my explanation said she had been a "biter" when she was a child and that is what stopped her.

Often children do not realise how much biting hurts and so that is why the suggestion to bite them seems like a good solution.

Just relating these stories so you can have an alternative scenario to think about in the interim period before you finally do discuss it.
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: lancaster lady on October 27, 2011, 11:52:37 PM
Hope she didn't charge you for the haircut !
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Nana on October 28, 2011, 08:28:55 AM
Lancaster LadY
Fortunately your hair will grow again lol.  You know Lancaster this is the first time I hear my granddaughter bite his brother or any one for that matter.  She does hit him, or fight even though she is 2 years younger.  On the other hand, she is or hitting him to get something she wants or kissing him all over... she loves his brother very much.

I am more relaxed as to what happened trying to see it as a method so as she doesnt do it anymore.  Still I am not comfortable with it but well, we'll see.

Update us with what happened.  Did Son  and gd already moved?   I do hope you get to see them often so you can enjoy your granddaughter.

Love
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: lancaster lady on October 28, 2011, 10:31:26 AM
Hello Nana ,
It wasn't me that had the haircut ...lol..... however my hair is falling out at the moment , due to such a stressful year .
Kids will battle with their siblings 24/7 , it's all part of growing up .As long as they don't cause permanent damage
let them get on with it ..

I am beginning to see how stressful my year has been . My health is shot to pieces and I am getting one virus after
another . My doc says it's all down to stress , and no joke , my hair is falling out !Plus the heart thing ....aye , aye , aye !

However tonight , they are away as usual back at my DIL's FOO , and my DH is preparing a steak dinner for me as I write
this , and I am now feeling the stress falling away . I haven't been aware of exactly how much stress I have been under
until now that we are at the final countdown as the move is next weekend , my body has given up the tension it has
been under for nearly a year . My OS believes everything happens for a reason , and now after living with my Gd
for 4 1/2 months , we have now a bond I hope that will last forever .So perhaps it did happen for a reason .
I will miss her so much , but hopefully will see her often .
The newly weds need their own place , as I need my own space .

thank you Nana for caring ....love as always .
Title: Re: Confused and sad
Post by: Purple Room on October 30, 2011, 09:18:54 PM
She did charge me for the haircut.

After a few months I went to a different hairdresser. As she was cutting she said in a shocked voice "what happened here?" She did her best to make it look better but as I was leaving she said "There is lot of growing that needs to happen before those gaps are filled in."

I never did find out what happened with the biting but a dodgy haircut can be fixed more easily I think.   ::)