I am a newbie on this forum and have learned a great deal and am very grateful for all the ww here.
But a question arise for me over the weekend about some of the posts and comments like:
"Grandparenting is a privledge not a right"
and "Privledges are won"
I'm wondering if the ethics/family values of parenting and grandparenting have changed recently? I am 66 so its been a long
time since I had a child. But its hard for me to imaging thinking that seeing a grandchild should be a 'privledge" vs a normal
expectation. Also, that "privledges should be won" Is visiting your grandchild on a holiday or a bday or at all a "privledge that
must be won" these days?
We trip over expectations. What you espouse is what we all expected...but it's not necessarily what we got. :'(
Anna,
I couldn't agree with you more.
Tara,
I was shocked when I read that phrase and thought "I hope my DIL doesn't think that"!
And there's always that awful thought that we can't expect others to respect us, if we don't respect ourselves. It's called "a rock and a hard place." Sending love...
I learn so much from you Luisa. Can you say more about what you mean in this context?
Quote from: Tara on November 14, 2010, 05:47:03 PM
I am a newbie on this forum and have learned a great deal and am very grateful for all the ww here.
But a question arise for me over the weekend about some of the posts and comments like:
"Grandparenting is a privledge not a right"
and "Privledges are won"
I'm wondering if the ethics/family values of parenting and grandparenting have changed recently? I am 66 so its been a long
time since I had a child. But its hard for me to imaging thinking that seeing a grandchild should be a 'privledge" vs a normal
expectation. Also, that "privledges should be won" Is visiting your grandchild on a holiday or a bday or at all a "privledge that
must be won" these days?
Yes, I think many, many people now think it is a privilege.
Now...I think that some families, for so many reasons, are so very dysfunctional that it isn't an expectation in those families. In others, I think it's about control. Some people are very vested in having control of everything that goes on in their lives.
For those who get smacked with this and the family isn't dysfunctional...enmeshment is the buzzword of the day. To so many people there is no delineation between enmeshment and closeness.
Yes, but Tara, let's flip this for a moment: What are the rights of the grandchildren? Do we believe they have rights? The courts have apparently shot that down. I did some research, the courts where I live say the parents have absolute legal rights over their children to deny them any visitation with grandparents. Luise, have you written about this? Where does it appear on MIL'sU? If not, what are your thoughts?
Anna, yours was a wonderful post.
A man in Australia is working in that country to establish laws that denial of grandparents rights (when there is no reason other than what the parents think) is child abuse. I am coming very close to that viewpoint as I consider my little granddaughter's mind and healthy future at stake.
Who is to decide what is "enmeshment" and what is a healthy relationship? "Enmeshment" is a cultural, not a scientific, term. What does a word like that mean to my five-year-old granddaughter who has been denied relationships with half her extended family, including her uncle, who is a teacher and skilled with and loves children? What are they going to tell her someday, that she is lucky not to have been "enmeshed" with her grandparents and uncles whom she was never allowed to meet? Who speaks for her? What happens to a child's mind when she observes such hate in her family, and never has a voice as to what she sees, hears, experiences, and whom she is able to have relationships with? The courts don't speak for her. Those therapists with their words like "enmeshment" don't speak for her. In this day and age, all too often no one does.
Tara, on Veterans Day I wrote a post (Gold Star Mothers) about the development of "Momism" in this country. It came about after World War II. There was a huge shift, from World War I soldiers carrying photos of their mothers into battle, and many songs about mothers, to World War II a and the Hollywood ideal of painting Betty Grable's behind on airplanes. After WWII the shrinks took over, developed "Momism," and the anti-MIL stuff began in earnest. The information came from a National Public Radio program on that day.
I just count myself so fortunate that my parents both were committed to allowing us unlimited time with our grandparents. My relationships with them were absolutely irreplaceable.
I wonder how many parents can really parent well without involvement from grandparents. It's a rose-colored-glasses view of parenting we have today with the ideals of perfect parenting. I wonder if insecurity and possessiveness and, in my case, a DIL who set up competition and fixed it so her "side" of the family will always "win." I wonder if "expectation" is really the key word here; perhaps it's "responsibility," on the sides of the parents and grandparents to create a loving support system with many options for our young. What freedom and choice love brings; what chains and destruction come with hate. Here's a real life example:
One of my aunts brainwashed her only child against all family. Now that cousin of mine is an adult. She can't get along with anyone. She has absolutely no interest in the family genealogy that has been such a wonderful resource for the rest of us. Her mother died two years ago, and now she has no one---never married, probably because of her mother's rabid anti-family views and keeping her away from everyone---never accomplished anything in life. She is one of the angriest people I know of, prone to ulcers, overweight, all kinds of things. She has transferred absolute negative criticism of her extended family to almost everyone she meets. She's also dangerous, having twice accused others in the family of crimes they did not commit!!!! Everyone gives up being around her because of her vicious temper and fearsome willingness to accuse others of what she should be looking at in herself. Did she have the right as a child to know her extended family, and to make her own decisions about her grandparents? When I think of what she missed with my very loving grandparents, I have to say yes, she had that right. Her grandparents were as bewildered as any of us as to what went wrong. I can't think of a more destructive way to teach a child about relationships than to simply cut them off from caring people who love them. And obviously her mother never gave a single thought to what her daughter's future would be like raised in hate, even as my aunt spewed out her rabid, illiterate, self-centered poison. And it is self-center-ism not to consider all sides of a child's needs and development. It is self-centered-ism to think only of one's self: "I don't like my MIL, therefore I'll keep her from my child." What will life be for my awful cousin in old age, when she has no warm memories on a cold winter night?
Interesting, in a horrid way, for a time my cousin turned her fury against the mother who had filled her with hate, and didn't speak to her for several years. But then, since cousin had no job and never had a family, she had to come back to the trough for money. There they were together for the next two decades, smoking and drinking away their anxieties. Not a pretty picture.
Will this be my granddaughter's fate?
There's a song from "South Pacific:" "You've got to be taught, to hate, and fear."
Grandchildren have rights that should be absolute. That is my firm belief. I think some serious academic/scientific study should be given to adults like my cousin who were raised in hate, as to the effects on them and society.
Just my view, and it may be a harsh one, but this subject is harsh. So many of these parents who cut off this ever seem to give a thought to the consequences for the children. It's all about the parents. I feel it should be the reverse: think first of the child's future, then about "feelings."
Kathleen
That was a very thoughtful post, Kathleen.
When one parent has been raised in a loving family, while the other parent was raised in a dysfunctional family full of hate or insecurity or something I don't yet understand, too often the fate of children will be to see only the dysfunctional side. This doesn't bode well for the future of our nation's children, does it? How did the human race evolve so successfully in the face of such regressive tendencies? Is the answer that past generations were too busy securing food and shelter to waste time on hate?
My husband looks forward to being a grandfather. One of the reasons his children are so amazingly accomplished and loving is the gift of bushel baskets full of fun and love he lavished on them. Unfortunately, our son's children will be cut off from this side of the family just as we are. I have printed your essay for my husband and set it next to his breakfast plate. I doubt there is anything we can do to head off this catastrophe.
Thank you for your insight.
I agree with the idea that it should be a natural expectation for grandparents to have a relationship with their grandchildren, but I am also one who is guarded against my husbands mother and sister and refuse to let my son spend any time with them. It's certainly not something that I take lightly, and I don't shelter him from everyone either, just the two of them.
My ex-husband has a very large extended family, not all of them are the most agreeable types, but they are harmless. And as far as my parents go, my son has always had a great relationship with them. (my extended family is rather small.) But my husband whom I married just 2 1/2 years ago, well, that's another story. My DH's mom and sis very painfully, and repeatedly disrespected both DH and I unjustly. Why would I willingly subject my son to someone who has no respect for either me or her own son? I don't trust her. She's fake. She's caused so many problems in my marriage that DH and aren't remotely in a place to be able to think about having children together, and even if we did, I can guarantee that it would be over my dead body that I would allow his mom anywhere near them.
In my case, my MIL, who would be considered step-grandparents at this point has lost that simple expectation. But then again, I expected her to behave like a civil, human being towards me and her son...once that is lost, all is lost.
Sunny1,
Just a question: I am a little confused over which grandparent and aunt you have cut off your son from seeing. Are they biological relatives, or the mother and sister of your current husband? (I am also always confused by some of the acronyms here, does DH mean Divorced Husband?) Is the grandmother in question actively abusive of your child in some way, or is it just that she and you have had problems and don't get along? I am not asking you to spell out details, but I am interested in whether or not she had in some way truly harmed your son, likewise his aunt. Maybe they are alcoholics or child beaters.
If this grandmother now cut off is your son's biological grandmother, how does he feel about this? Do you think that he would like to see her, just a as children of divorce still want to see the non-custodial parent?
I am thinking of you in the future, and hope that your reaction against your MIL, however justified it may be, won't come back on you in the form of your son learning this behavior and turning it back on you.
I may have this all wrong, and if it's a stepgrandmother we're talking about that's another kettle of fish; I don't see why your son would need to establish a relationship with her, although in the interest of family harmony and role modeling it might be good to look at it and see if something could be worked out. Your son would learn a lot from it, I think. It sounds like your husband's mother is the one you are speaking of.
I am the child of divorced parents, and their bitterness caused many fractured relationships and will end many supportive relationships for generations to come. I wish so much they had come to some kind of amicable terms so we could have had peaceful relations with them both, and that their children didn't feel the need to defensively scapegoat and take sides.
Good luck,
Kathleen
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts on this. I am learning as I read.
Blessings
Quote from: kathleen on November 15, 2010, 07:06:30 AM
Sunny1,
Just a question: I am a little confused over which grandparent and aunt you have cut off your son from seeing. Are they biological relatives, or the mother and sister of your current husband? (I am also always confused by some of the acronyms here, does DH mean Divorced Husband?) Is the grandmother in question actively abusive of your child in some way, or is it just that she and you have had problems and don't get along? I am not asking you to spell out details, but I am interested in whether or not she had in some way truly harmed your son, likewise his aunt. Maybe they are alcoholics or child beaters.
If this grandmother now cut off is your son's biological grandmother, how does he feel about this? Do you think that he would like to see her, just a as children of divorce still want to see the non-custodial parent?
I am thinking of you in the future, and hope that your reaction against your MIL, however justified it may be, won't come back on you in the form of your son learning this behavior and turning it back on you.
I may have this all wrong, and if it's a stepgrandmother we're talking about that's another kettle of fish; I don't see why your son would need to establish a relationship with her, although in the interest of family harmony and role modeling it might be good to look at it and see if something could be worked out. Your son would learn a lot from it, I think. It sounds like your husband's mother is the one you are speaking of.
I am the child of divorced parents, and their bitterness caused many fractured relationships and will end many supportive relationships for generations to come. I wish so much they had come to some kind of amicable terms so we could have had peaceful relations with them both, and that their children didn't feel the need to defensively scapegoat and take sides.
Good luck,
Kathleen
It is only a step-grandmother to my son. DH stands for Dear Husband. My son has strong relationships with his biological grandparents all around, and even though my ex (my son's father) was abusive towards me, he has never laid a hand on my son. That being said, I always give people the benifit of the doubt and multiple chances when wronged....so though she does not do drugs or alcohol, it would take a truly evil person for me to say I don't want my child around them. And sorry I don't feel like going into my story as I've done it multiple times here.
I'm only adding my two cents, because I can honestly say that if my DH and I
did
have children that would be the biological grandchildren of hers, I wouldn't let her near them.
Like I said, if she has no respect for her own son, how could I trust her with mine? ???
FYI - if you go to the Home page, click on Helpful Resources, then click on the post titled: Abbreviations, Help! (I think it's something like that)
it gives an insight to some of the acronyms if you're still a little confused. ;) They can be a little difficult to get used to at first.
Wow - I have so many ideas in my head over this.
First off, I think part of the problem is in your (you - general, not you -specific poster) definition of grand-parenting, and how it matches your DIL's definition of grand-parenting. You might think it's common place for GP's to take the GK's for overnights starting from very young. If your DIL doesn't agree, who wins?
My IL's have limited contact with my DD. We see them 2 or 3 times a year and they've never spent time alone with her. The thing is, I couldn't tell you any one big or specific reason, except that I don't trust them with her. Through a bunch of small things that have come up over the past 6 years, they've shown me that they don't consider her as a Person, with her own likes and dislikes. It's like they see her as more of doll or a trained monkey.
I couldn't tell MIL what she's doing wrong, because she doesn't accept criticism and she would argue with me over it, instead of listening, accepting and trying to change. I've come to the realization that my MIL doesn't have it in her to be a good Gma. I'm sure it puzzles her, but she won't accept responsibility for any of it, and she would never ask what she can do to make it better.
In our case, in order to make it 'better' MIL would have to:
- call our house to speak with DD, when DD is awake. She would have to be interested in DD and what SHE is doing. MIL would have to remember that DD is taking piano, gymnastics and swimming lessons. This also means that MIL would have to ask us when important things are coming up, so she can call and ask how the first day of school went, or how her piano recital went.
- spend time with DD doing what SHE wants to do. Yes, she will have to play dolls / Barbies, no, it's not actually fun for MIL, but DD LOVES it and LOVES when she has someone to play with.
- PLAN fun things that MIL and DD both like to do, DD loves to bake, do crafts and go (fun) places, but she doesn't like to shop (for things that MIL wants).
- try and pick out different things for DD and SIL's DD (14 mos older than DD), they're different kids with different tastes and they don't feel special when they see that you buy them the EXACT same things
- cook some kid friendly foods when we visit, maybe even learn some of DD's favourites?
- stick around us when we're out doing fun things, it's not fun for us to go hunting MIL down, because she took off on us, because she thought it was 'boring'
Scoop, you and I would get along great, LOL. This are the kinds of things I'd love to do, now I have to wonder what my dil's idea of a grandmother is.
Scoop,
These are some great ideas about being a great grandmother. My GD came for a week this summer and it was a first for us.
My DIL and SS suggested it. I was kind of nervous before she got here, but we had a wonderful time, doing the kinds of things you mention, scrapbooking, boat rides, etc. etc.
I always appreciate your posts.
My husband looks forward to being a grandfather. One of the reasons his children are so amazingly accomplished and loving is the gift of bushel baskets full of fun and love he lavished on them. Unfortunately, our son's children will be cut off from this side of the family just as we are. I have printed your essay for my husband and set it next to his breakfast plate. I doubt there is anything we can do to head off this catastrophe.
Hello Seasage,
Thank you for writing this. As you did, I have shared your post with my husband. Like your husband, mine poured so much love, time,
resources, and attention on all our three children. He did not deserve what he got from one, nor from his DIL.
As you say, little to nothing can be done. There is comfort in sharing.
I so much appreciate your comments,
Kathleen
Quote from: Anna on November 15, 2010, 08:47:12 AM
Sunny1, I'm sorry your mil is disrespectful to you & your hubby. I still think she should have a chance with future gc. Maybe she would be totally different with them? Maybe her gc would soften her in some ways & make her a better person? One never knows, unless one is given a chance. Just a thought.
(((((Hugs))))) Anna.
Anna...I am not trying to start a dust up. I truly don't understand. Why should you (general you) let someone be around your children who is mean or disrespectful or says hateful things about you or is horrible to you. If they can't be trusted to be nice in the first place, why would you trust them with your child?
Glitter,
I don't know or don't remember if you are a DIL.
Here's the deal: hopefully to help:
It is your judgment what is hateful or disrespectful to you.
It is your child's judgment whether or not she/he wants to have a relationship with a family member that the child may love as deeply as a parent. If your child has been well raised, that child will know the truth and you will not have to concern yourself about what is said about you. Your child, on his/her own, will reject the grandparent if that grandparent is unfair, vicious, or otherwise abusive.
The child may well know (most probably does) that the grandparent has faults, even very deep faults. The child may love the grandparent(s) despite the faults.
Children learn from loving family members with deep faults and flaws, and thus, they learn to love their parents, with their parents' deep faults and flaws.
If they learn not to love people with flaws, this can be translated later.
At least, this is my experience. I may well be wrong.
Good luck,
Kathleen
Quote from: Anna on November 15, 2010, 06:51:41 PM
Thanx Kathleen. I have a hard time trying to explain things & you did it perfectly. Yes, I thought it was an understandable explanation.
Glitter, would you want someone else telling you how you should feel about someone else? I am an adult. Children don't get to make their own decisions until much later. That's what parents are for. would you want someone else keeping you away from a person cause they don't like them? Again...I'm an adult and same answer. I know it's different when it's your own chidren, but how do they learn who they can or can't trust if they are never allowed to be around anyone? You talk with your kids. You sometimes explain why you make the decisions you make. Just because a child isn't around a grandparent doesn't mean a child isn't around other people. (And during the time when dh's parents didn't see the kids, I did talk with ods about it.) How do they learn to figure things out for themselves? There are plenty of opportunities in life to learn how to figure things out...I don't think it hinges on being exposed to grandparents. Children will figure things out on their own if given the chance. I think that most gp should be given the chance to have a relationship with their gc. Maybe a lot of it does come down to generational differences in thinking. I don't know, but I do notice a real schism in the way people perceive it. Maybe it is a difference that has resulted as society has moved away from large extended families and focused more on the nuclear.
I'm glad that you and Kathleen could put it into words. It doesn't change my mind about what I think, but it does help me understand the reasoning behind the different opinion. That certainly can't hurt me.
[/quote]
Anna...I am not trying to start a dust up. I truly don't understand. Why should you (general you) let someone be around your children who is mean or disrespectful or says hateful things about you or is horrible to you. If they can't be trusted to be nice in the first place, why would you trust them with your child?
[/quote]
Hi Glitter,
I've been reflecting on your comments and from my perspective the issue of grandparenting is not black and white so to speak. . I agree that no one would want to let their kids be around someone who was horrible to them. ditto with someone who says hateful things to you. I honor your thoughts on this.
I just get worried when I hear people on the post saying the right to grandparent has to be earned. I'm just thinking out loud here
but would prefer that someone was trusted till they gave a good reason not to be trusted vs the other way around.
This is an out of sequence thought but - my ds wife stopped speaking to me once after the elections 2 yrs ago for nearly a year because I am a liberal.
You gave me some very good feedback on my first post here awhile back to focus on my DH's family more. In reflecting on what you said I called my 6 yr old gd and explained I was going on a trip to India and would't get to see her at Christmas but would miss her
and asked her what she wanted for xmas, how was soccer, etc.
I thank you for encouraging me to focus more on her and my other GC on DH side.
Kathleen, I agree that we teach our children about loving others even if they have faults. Who among us is perfect? My issues w/my DF & my SM are my issues, not my childrens. I didn't think it was fair or classy to start a family feud ala Hatfields and McCoys and force them to hate the people I had trouble with. Ds & DD were given the freedom to either develop or dismiss a relationship with their grandparents w/o editorializing or pressure from me.
In other aspects of our lives, such as the workplace or in friendships, we may also try to form alliances perhaps as a way to boost our feelings of security. It's unattractive in those situations, too, and rarely works out for anyone involved.
I'm glad my children learned how to handle this, and my entire family is stronger for it.
Quote from: Tara on November 15, 2010, 09:27:43 PM
I'm just thinking out loud here
but would prefer that someone was trusted till they gave a good reason not to be trusted vs the other way around. I can see that. That makes sense to me.
You gave me some very good feedback on my first post here awhile back to focus on my DH's family more. In reflecting on what you said I called my 6 yr old gd and explained I was going on a trip to India and would't get to see her at Christmas but would miss her
and asked her what she wanted for xmas, how was soccer, etc.
I thank you for encouraging me to focus more on her and my other GC on DH side. :)
Just an odd question...will you be able to SKYPE with her from India? That would be so cool to a 6 year old...to be able to see someone else in another country and talk to them at the same time. Be even cooler if you wore a sari and wore some of the traditional jewelry (I hear they have some of the pieces that look "authentic" but don't require a nose piercing) while you talked to her. [Maybe I'm a geek...but I'd have eaten that up at 6 years old.]
To me, no one, absolutely NO ONE, has the RIGHT to be involved in my child's life without *MY* permission. And my permission rests on a LOT of factors, how you treat me, how you treat other people, how you treat animals, how you treat your stuff. It depends on whether your actions line up with your words. It depends on what I've heard about you from other people. It depends on whether you will listen to me and hear me. It also depends on my gut feeling.
And no, I'm not going to let ANYONE have unlimited access until the first time they hurt her and then cut them off. That's like closing the barn door after the horse has escaped. It's my job to PRO-ACTIVELY defend her and to raise her up to be an upstanding, contributing member of society.
For example, I trust my Mom explicitly with my DD. DD stayed with Mom for a week this past summer. Mom drives DD places. They have a blast together. However, I had to have a talk with my Mom this summer too. She is obsessed with weight and she was telling DD that she had had enough candy/dessert/whatever. So I told Mom that she did not have to be the food police for DD. That DD knows when she's had enough and we want her to figure it out for herself. So my Mom stopped. And it really was just like that, it happened, I talked to her, it stopped. No grudges, no hurt feelings, nothing. Let me tell you, it would NOT have gone down like that with my MIL. And that's why I trust my Mom, it's not that she's perfect, it's that she can respect that *I* am the authority over DD.
I would also like to point out that 'hurting' a child doesn't always mean hitting, slapping, name calling, insulting - it's also damaging to children to never be told 'no', to give them anything they want "so they don't cry", to compare them to siblings/cousins, to favour them over siblings/cousins and to favour siblings / cousins over them. It's damaging to children to see one gender favoured and it's damaging to them to see their parents treated with disrespect. It teaches them that it's okay to disrespect your parents, and also that it's okay to be treated like that.
Very good post Scoop!!!
Good post, Scoop.
I think parenting is even a privilege, not just grandparenting. There seems to be some kind of societal thinking that people deserve children and have rights to them. I joined a forum to support my sister in her infertility issues not too long ago. It was amazing to me that so many people thought they were owed children, that monetarily poor parents or young parents should give up their children to the more deserving women. Some of those women thought they were owed those children, that the government should step in and physically take away children from under privileged families to give to them. An extreme example, but it was a persistent theme and it seems to kind of bleed over into our society -- those who think they are owed.
In any case, from a DIL's point of view -- my two utmost important relationships are my marriage and my children. My parents were removed from the honor of #1 relationship. And even so, as a child I knew my parents marriages were #1, not me. I learned from them that marriage comes first. To raise healthy, independent children you must have a strong marriage. These two relationships are linked - for now, until my children break away.
With that said, anything that continually hits the marriage is bad for my kids. No one has to walk up to my kids and physically or verbally hurt them directly to their face for them to suffer or feel the effects of it. Anyone or anything that continually strikes, batters or pounds on our marriage affects our kids too. And it works the other way, anything that continually uses the kids as a pawn will affect our marriage.
And little things add up. And affect two really important relationships at once. Again, as a DIL my two priorities is my marriage and my children. I don't take it lightly, DH and I are the protectors of our unit. And I think this is a normal way of viewing marriage and children. In our case my MIL would agree 100 percent, in fact, I've heard her state similar things. But she also refuses to acknowledge that her gossiping of me, my children, the undermining and attempts at control have any negative affect on our marriage or children. So what that she talks about me and she doesn't feel the need to stop, what harm is there really in that?.....It hurts me, it hurts my DH even more, therefore it hurts our marriage and that hurts our children. Something so small to her has a huge negative domino affect on our unit. If it's not worth it to her to stop, it is up to us to protect our marriage and children from continuous hits.
Quote from: Scoop on November 16, 2010, 05:56:38 AM
To me, no one, absolutely NO ONE, has the RIGHT to be involved in my child's life without *MY* permission. And my permission rests on a LOT of factors, how you treat me, how you treat other people, how you treat animals, how you treat your stuff. It depends on whether your actions line up with your words. It depends on what I've heard about you from other people. It depends on whether you will listen to me and hear me. It also depends on my gut feeling.
And no, I'm not going to let ANYONE have unlimited access until the first time they hurt her and then cut them off. That's like closing the barn door after the horse has escaped. It's my job to PRO-ACTIVELY defend her and to raise her up to be an upstanding, contributing member of society.
For example, I trust my Mom explicitly with my DD. DD stayed with Mom for a week this past summer. Mom drives DD places. They have a blast together. However, I had to have a talk with my Mom this summer too. She is obsessed with weight and she was telling DD that she had had enough candy/dessert/whatever. So I told Mom that she did not have to be the food police for DD. That DD knows when she's had enough and we want her to figure it out for herself. So my Mom stopped. And it really was just like that, it happened, I talked to her, it stopped. No grudges, no hurt feelings, nothing. Let me tell you, it would NOT have gone down like that with my MIL. And that's why I trust my Mom, it's not that she's perfect, it's that she can respect that *I* am the authority over DD.
I would also like to point out that 'hurting' a child doesn't always mean hitting, slapping, name calling, insulting - it's also damaging to children to never be told 'no', to give them anything they want "so they don't cry", to compare them to siblings/cousins, to favour them over siblings/cousins and to favour siblings / cousins over them. It's damaging to children to see one gender favoured and it's damaging to them to see their parents treated with disrespect. It teaches them that it's okay to disrespect your parents, and also that it's okay to be treated like that.
It sounds as though GPs, especially IL GPs, are lumped in with random strangers. How sad that "family" has been reduced to the whims of one person. I'm sure my DIL feels pretty much the same as you, Scoop. We're rural, so the "way we treat animals" is different from how pets are treated in the city where DIL has been raised and currently lives. Our truck is a work truck, so it's not shiny and polished every day like their Beemer. We wear work clothes around the property rather than silk that requires dry cleaning. I know, because she's said it, that DIL puts us in the category of people who don't care about their pets or their stuff. It would be a shame for our GC to miss out on knowing us just because we drive a "dirty" vehicle or have our cats out in the barn instead of curled up on a cushion inside the house.
Food fight. :o
May I interject a little levity here? My wish for each WW, should you have a son, is that your DIL agrees exactly with your view on grandchildren. ;)
Quote from: pam1 on November 16, 2010, 09:05:57 AM
Good post, Scoop.
I think parenting is even a privilege, not just grandparenting. There seems to be some kind of societal thinking that people deserve children and have rights to them. I joined a forum to support my sister in her infertility issues not too long ago. It was amazing to me that so many people thought they were owed children, that monetarily poor parents or young parents should give up their children to the more deserving women. Some of those women thought they were owed those children, that the government should step in and physically take away children from under privileged families to give to them. An extreme example, but it was a persistent theme and it seems to kind of bleed over into our society -- those who think they are owed.
In any case, from a DIL's point of view -- my two utmost important relationships are my marriage and my children. My parents were removed from the honor of #1 relationship. And even so, as a child I knew my parents marriages were #1, not me. I learned from them that marriage comes first. To raise healthy, independent children you must have a strong marriage. These two relationships are linked - for now, until my children break away.
With that said, anything that continually hits the marriage is bad for my kids. No one has to walk up to my kids and physically or verbally hurt them directly to their face for them to suffer or feel the effects of it. Anyone or anything that continually strikes, batters or pounds on our marriage affects our kids too. And it works the other way, anything that continually uses the kids as a pawn will affect our marriage.
And little things add up. And affect two really important relationships at once. Again, as a DIL my two priorities is my marriage and my children. I don't take it lightly, DH and I are the protectors of our unit. And I think this is a normal way of viewing marriage and children. In our case my MIL would agree 100 percent, in fact, I've heard her state similar things. But she also refuses to acknowledge that her gossiping of me, my children, the undermining and attempts at control have any negative affect on our marriage or children. So what that she talks about me and she doesn't feel the need to stop, what harm is there really in that?.....It hurts me, it hurts my DH even more, therefore it hurts our marriage and that hurts our children. Something so small to her has a huge negative domino affect on our unit. If it's not worth it to her to stop, it is up to us to protect our marriage and children from continuous hits.
Good post Pam! I totally agree with you.
Quote from: Scoop on November 16, 2010, 05:56:38 AM
To me, no one, absolutely NO ONE, has the RIGHT to be involved in my child's life without *MY* permission. And my permission rests on a LOT of factors, how you treat me, how you treat other people, how you treat animals, how you treat your stuff. It depends on whether your actions line up with your words. It depends on what I've heard about you from other people. It depends on whether you will listen to me and hear me. It also depends on my gut feeling.
And no, I'm not going to let ANYONE have unlimited access until the first time they hurt her and then cut them off. That's like closing the barn door after the horse has escaped. It's my job to PRO-ACTIVELY defend her and to raise her up to be an upstanding, contributing member of society.
For example, I trust my Mom explicitly with my DD. DD stayed with Mom for a week this past summer. Mom drives DD places. They have a blast together. However, I had to have a talk with my Mom this summer too. She is obsessed with weight and she was telling DD that she had had enough candy/dessert/whatever. So I told Mom that she did not have to be the food police for DD. That DD knows when she's had enough and we want her to figure it out for herself. So my Mom stopped. And it really was just like that, it happened, I talked to her, it stopped. No grudges, no hurt feelings, nothing. Let me tell you, it would NOT have gone down like that with my MIL. And that's why I trust my Mom, it's not that she's perfect, it's that she can respect that *I* am the authority over DD.
I would also like to point out that 'hurting' a child doesn't always mean hitting, slapping, name calling, insulting - it's also damaging to children to never be told 'no', to give them anything they want "so they don't cry", to compare them to siblings/cousins, to favour them over siblings/cousins and to favour siblings / cousins over them. It's damaging to children to see one gender favoured and it's damaging to them to see their parents treated with disrespect. It teaches them that it's okay to disrespect your parents, and also that it's okay to be treated like that.
Great Post Scoop!
Pen,your life style does not.... equate to being untrustworthy :'(
Letting your kids experience different life styles is very healthy,each grandparent can offer different things that make them more well rounded,and builds charactor.It shows them love doesn't equate to what you have,material things.And it shows them family is whats really important,not money.
I agreed with scoop,because parents should decide who kids spend time with.I didn't allow my kids to stay overnight with any other kids,if i didn't know their parents well,if they were responsible and wouldn't let them do things that could get them in harms way.I dont think any Grandparent would risk the chance of letting their Grandkids get harmed.I know there are some grandparents that would disregard certain request of them,but not many.They should at least be given the chance,unless it would be just way too risky too.Never because they dont have money,or as nice of things.............that is very,very shallow
Oh Pen - I'm so sorry your DIL feels that way. I also think it's funny that you put us in the same category, because I do judge my IL's on how they treat their dog. But it's because they treat her like a show dog. She's only good as long as she's trimmed and brushed and white as snow. She's not allowed to get dirty, she's not allowed to play. MIL brushes her harshly until she screams - because she has to look pretty. Ugh.
It's too bad that your DIL and DS can't see the value of having a rural connection. I would LOVE for my DD to be able to spend time at a farm (even a hobby farm) and see the work that goes into providing us with food.
I have mixed feelings about the GP's as strangers, because on some levels they are. My IL's have made themselves strangers to us. However, I love my SIL (Dh's sister) like she's my own sister. I talk to her more than I talk to my brother. I have no problem leaving DD with her and her family overnight. My brother and his family - not so much.
I see it more as a circle of inclusion, where no one gets a free pass. And if I'm honest here, I would say not even my DH. I am the epitome of Mama Bear (while still trying NOT to be a helicopter parent).
I know I'm touchy on this subject. As a mom I don't want you all to think I was lax about who my kids spent time with; I was protective like most other mothers, but the GPs on both sides had as much access as they wanted. As a (potential) GM, I would like to be trusted to be around my (not yet even a gleam) GC. My gut feeling is that we'll be cut off; DIL has set the groundwork.
When I was told that my DH's Uncle was forcing himself on the women and female children in the family and neighbors I didn't wait to find out first hand. In this case and many similar circumstances I can see going by reputation. I also chose to form my own opinion of people but when you are the parent you are not always given the option of getting to know the person on your own.
I don't think that being a gp should be earned but I do think that gp's should realize that they are not the parents. I was told that I should go to the gp's for holidays every year that after the gp's passed that we could form out own traditions. Well, the gp's are still alive and my kids are on their own. When would my time with our traditions happen? When DD is living a days ride away? We had our traditions and holiday time and if I hadn't stood up for our time we would have had none. We had birthday parties for our kids and we wanted their actual birthdays to be our time. Nope, that couldn't happen either because we were told they were intitled to that time also. Then when my MIL got even more dangerous to be around we had to do away with having any party for our kids because my MIL had a tantrum if she didn't get invited.
I don't think it's a privilage you must earn but I also don't think that is alright to think that every special occasion is going to include you or your traditions. That Sunday doesn't mean that they are coming over. When gp's just assume that they are going to spend so many days per month or every holiday they will attend your traditions or expectations that is when problems start.
I think the expectations set us up to fail in gp relations. Before assuming maybe discussing expectations without seeming like your placing an order.
Quote from: Anna on November 15, 2010, 08:47:12 AM
Sunny1, I'm sorry your mil is disrespectful to you & your hubby. I still think she should have a chance with future gc. Maybe she would be totally different with them? Maybe her gc would soften her in some ways & make her a better person? One never knows, unless one is given a chance. Just a thought.
(((((Hugs))))) Anna.
Sorry that I'm just getting around to answering this, I haven't been on here since I last posted that.
Anyhow, I know it's wishful thinking on your part, but honestly, the woman has already had a lot of chances with us to rectify things. I think scoop said it well when she said, "it's damaging to them to see their parents treated with disrespect. It teaches them that it's okay to disrespect your parents, and also that it's okay to be treated like that."
If she can't treat
me or her
own son with respect, she's not getting anywhere near
my kid. I wouldn't allow a stranger to treat me like that then let them around my child, why would I let someone around my kid who treats
me like dirt just because they're family. Blood may be thicker than water, but just because someone is called part of my family doesn't give them a licence to treat me badly, and any normal parent would protect their kids when they feel it is necessary...I don't trust her, therefore I'm in protective mode.
Wise Women,
I appreciate everyones responses.
I added "what other people say" as just a part of my big, long, list of what I use to make my decisions / judgments of people who are going to be involved in my DD's life. For her first daycare, I called and got references from other parents. From talking to parents, I glean information about other parents before I send my DD over for play dates.
When my SIL told me that her mother (my MIL) once threw a vase at DH's head when she was in a rage - I took that into consideration. When SIL told me that MIL once swept everything off of SIL's dresser, smashing some things, in a fit of rage - I listened. Even more subtle than that, DH does not tell pleasant memories (as stories for DD) from when he was little. SIL tells some, but they always involve DH doing something "motherly" for her. So it's all of that, plus what I've seen, plus my gut feelings.
I should mention that I'm not actively trying to keep DD away from the IL's. They are welcome to visit us more, if they want to. I have never said 'no' to visiting them, or to phoning them. However, I do not initiate it. As for them being alone with her, it's just never "worked out". I think it would be cruel to tell them outright that it's not going to happen anytime soon.
As for what I'm teaching my DD, I'm teaching her NOT to be a doormat. I'm trying to teach her that people treat you the way you LET them treat you. I'm also trying to give her a decent BS detector, so that she can use her own judgment when someone is trying to feed her a line of baloney.
"
Quote from: Pen on November 16, 2010, 02:31:10 PM
I know I'm touchy on this subject. As a mom I don't want you all to think I was lax about who my kids spent time with; I was protective like most other mothers, but the GPs on both sides had as much access as they wanted. As a (potential) GM, I would like to be trusted to be around my (not yet even a gleam) GC. My gut feeling is that we'll be cut off; DIL has set the groundwork."
Pen, please don't allow anyone to make you feel defensive or "touchy." You were obviously a good, conscientious parent; don't buy into anyone's attempts to make you feel less than you are. You don't have to explain your parenting ethics. They are quite obvious from the considered way you write.
The original question was, "Is grandparenting a privilege that must be won nowadays?" My final thought is that it can't be won. MY DIL had long lists of rules and obligations. They were impossible to meet. And it was completely one-sided; the day was not far off when my granddaughter would also be making lists and offering me forms to fill out for suitability tests, with the F mark already in before I started. Parents either see the value of extended family and an expansive concept of love that includes everyone, or they don't. If family is not a value for the parents in the open way, then this will be taught to the children and they will carry it on.
The totalitarian style of parenting has an historical thread. It was very helpful to me listening to that NPR program on Veteran's Day (again, if anyone is interested, it's posted under Gold Star Mothers.) Anti-MIL is probably partly an outgrowth of the movement against mothers that began in WWII.
As for my own grandmothers, they opened whole new worlds to me that were much more fascinating than playing with toys with them. I don't think either one of them ever came to my games, maybe the Christmas pageant. I didn't care. I would much prefer to be with them and enter into their worlds, which is how they taught me about life and, mercifully, another way of living beyond my highly critical, iron-willed mother.
I am lucky my mother didn't decide my dad's mother wasn't good enough to spend time with me; my mother thoroughly disliked her, and made it very clear to all of us how she felt. Very early on I thought much the lesser of my mother for not keeping her feelings to herself. My grandmother was widowed at age 30 (grandfather killed by a drunk driver; I never met him) and raised two boys on her own but with help from her own mother. Her boys became outstanding soldiers and citizens and responsible and loving parents. She often had to be gone working to raise money and my dad always wished she had been a stay-at-home mom. But he never denigrated her to us the way my mother did. Now I realize it was hard on my father to have to listen to that.
But in my mother's supreme judgment, she decided my grandmother had been a poor parent. Even today my elderly aunt remembers the caustic remarks my mother made openly about Grandma. Grandma put up with it to be with us. I had to put up with my mother (who, unfortunately, stayed home) to get through childhood; but I loved---very deeply---my grandmother.
As I've said, children will make their own judgments. Parents can brainwash them---for a while---but often they will see the truth and begin hiding their feelings from whomever is giving the big lie, that one set of grandparents are totally good and the other set is totally bad.
I would also be interested sometime to see what expressions a grandchild should have toward a grandparent, instead of the other way around.
Hang in there, Pen, better days are coming.
Kathleen
Quote from: Tara on November 14, 2010, 05:47:03 PM
I am a newbie on this forum and have learned a great deal and am very grateful for all the ww here.
But a question arise for me over the weekend about some of the posts and comments like:
"Grandparenting is a privledge not a right"
and "Privledges are won"
I'm wondering if the ethics/family values of parenting and grandparenting have changed recently? I am 66 so its been a long
time since I had a child. But its hard for me to imaging thinking that seeing a grandchild should be a 'privledge" vs a normal
expectation. Also, that "privledges should be won" Is visiting your grandchild on a holiday or a bday or at all a "privledge that
must be won" these days?
We cannot live our dreams through our grand children and children....
It would be nice if they felt and thought the same way we do, and wanted the same things, but they don't. We also must learn, that they're generation has changed extremely since our generation...Back in our days, we didn't move or travel as much and family was depended upon. Now a days, it's not...
I work with a gal who has fond memories of her grandmother, who lived with them growing up, however, she also remembers the huge arguments, her mother and grand mother had...
So, what I'm saying is, it's great if the family unit can get along with the extended family unit...however, it seems the more some grandparents get, the more they feel entitled to treat they're grand children like they're own and that tends to offend some DIL's. Some it doesn't.
I work with a lot of women who wouldn't care less, however, they're working full time, very busy, with several children, and running them around all over the place to after school activities....they are career women who would give anything to have grand parents like some of you are....
there is one girl who said, she told her mil, when my children are with you, you get to spoil them, however, when your in my home, my children, go by my rules and not yours, reason being, she wants them to understand the concept, different households, different rules....and I think that's fine, and if my DIL said that to me, I would understand, and not take it as a God awful personal attack, but totally understand her wishes...and why, it wasn't meant to hurt anyone, or say that her MIL was wrong, however, it's her rule....so fine....and I really honestly believe in a lot of cases, not all, but career women who are involved in so much more, are more confident and understand a much bigger picture beyond taking things so personal...???? They are way to busy to obsess over small stuff until they become so big it starts to dictate the unhappiness in they're lives....they don't analyze every single action...as a personal attack....and I think that also has a lot to do with it....
but you don't get to choose, so, I say, why fight it....why create more problems for ourselves? More worry? Lets move on with what we have and learn to appreciate it and hope for the best...that's all one can do...
Like Luise said, we sometimes trip all over our expectations...lets forget about what it was like for us, and try to respect the wishes of our DIL's. Might not see right, but it's who she is and how she feels and we are not going to change them....we can't always have it our way, so, lets focus on something else, lets, do something with our lives that doesn't depend on our Grand children...or sons and DIL's....
We only have one life, one chance, so lets get out there and live it....and stop obsessing about what we dont' have....and consentrate on the blessings we do have and work with that.....hopefully one day our son's and DIL's will understand...we might still be here, we might not, however, after the problems I've had with my son and DIL, I'm not ever going to go there again...it is what it is...I'm here if they want to love me, but I refuse to allow them to dictate my happiness....and I don't mean that in a mean way....but, they are not responsible for my happiness....neither is my GD....
I just wonder, what some of you here would do if you only saw your Grand children once a year, if that? It's not going to ruin my life, or make me feel sad and obsess about it all the time....it's my choice, I can choose happy, or I can choose, sad, and obsess on all the bad stuff...I refuse to do that...and I don't own them, or my Grand child....they need to be where they are, they are happy there....and they have lives there, and have built a family there....I cannot depend on them for my happiness....
we have two choices, happy...sad....
the more we get the more we want...we do not own our children, they are not ours, we were merely a vessel from which they came...doesn't matter how we were raised....they don't feel the same way we did, for many reasons...maybe we gave them to much....? Who knows...we did the best we could do mentally....however, they are not able to live up to our expectations...our grand children are not ours to won, they are a gift and a privilege, and if our son's were not married, we wouldn't have them....so, we can ask, is it a privledge, that must be won, yes, it is...b/c they are another women's children...and we must respect that, be it we agree or not....just b/c she is married to our son's, doesn't give us any special priveledges, unless she says so...period....and I felt the very same way when I was a DIL....that was my child....and no matter how strongly my MIL felt that I was doing things wrong, it was my way...like Frank Sinatra said, "I did it my way".
Allowance....sets us free, and understanding, parenting doesn't give us a free pass to do as we feel we must....doesn't mean we're right or wrong....it simply is....
We human beings can be so so so controlling sometimes...and feel it is our job to worry, and don't feel productive unless we give ourselves something to worry about, and in doing that, we forget to see the paramount gifts we've had and experienced which we should be greatful for.....
yes, in some cases it is a priviledge, b'/c in some cases, some grand parents refuse to recognize boundaries and that those Grand children are not theirs.
I don't know if any of this makes any sense or helps you...however, it is the way I see things....it works for me...
(Tara, I'm not saying you are any of these things I wrote about, I'm simply thowing some ideas out there, digest...or not....what ever works best for you...)
Creme
It's sure tricky finding the balance between connecting and autonomy. Sending love...
Kathleen, thank you.
Quote from: Rose799 on November 16, 2010, 11:22:01 PM
We adults will some day have to answer to these children... "Do as we say, not as we do..." Aren't we supposed to be the adults? Aren't we supposed to set the example? Has this become such a materialistic society that we toss out family members as easy as a pair of old shoes? DD has resented me since teen years. I've tried everything to make amends. I don't see it happening. She seems resentful & jealous of my closeness to GC. I'm too old to play this game. It's going to break my heart in two, but I'm willing to take my marbles & go home. I love GC too much. The road goes both ways, I don't want DD teaching GC disrespect for GP... Some day, GC may ask what happened? What will we tell them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQmz6Rbpnu0
Rose,
I am moved by what you are saying and can relate on so many levels.
Also loved the young womans speech. thank you
Love and blessings to you
Creme,
Beautifully written and heart felt.
One of the many things you said is that we can't live our dreams through our children and grandchildren.
so well said. For me I know this, yet with gc on the way I started to envision a future that included them
for example I asked them if I might visit once a quarter (every 3 months, I live in another state) . That may or may not happen but remembering what you are saying Creme is truly revolutionary IMHO! I wasn't raised this way
I worked for a few years in aging I heard so many sad stories about older women (older than myself at 66) who
were alone and pretty much abandoned by DC and GC and community that it made me begin to ponder this:
what if women as they were raising their children and going through the progression of grandparenting etc. that goes with it
knew that there was decent possibility that they would be all alone in the future. That the very children that they had
sacrificed so much for would be unavailable and even possibly uninterested in supporting them or even interacting with them now that they were community elders and needing some support might they live their lives differently?
Might they have made more time for things that would enhance their own lives at the time and in their senior
years? By this I mean financially/career wise as well as socially and culturally. Here is one simple statistic. I'm
not meaning to derail our conversation re: grandparenting privileges but this is a part of the picture.
Did you know that the average age of widowhood is 56 years old, and that 76% of married women are eventually widowed. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the savings rate for single women is 1.5% compared to 2.1% for single men. And, in the United States, women over the age of 75 living in poverty represent the highest percentage of those of any other industrialized country. Over 70% of the United State's four million elderly poor people are women; 48% of this group are widows. Women still earn 74 cents for each dollar a man earns, which qualifies them for less Social Security and pension. The statistics speak for themselves.
This is just one aspect of older women's lives. We need to empower ourselves (now) by having our own dreams, interests, community. We might be blessed by having adult children and GC who love and support us and want us to be in their lives
and us in theirs, but there is a chance they may not want this, due to different values, generational differences, mental health issues, Ad infinitum as we see here and we need to be able to still have/create rich satisfying lives as no one will do it for us! This is one of the things I love about the WW forum. It inspires us, supports us to do what we are able to work things out with Adult children DILs and then/also move own with living and creating our own satisfying lives.
Thank you Creme for your wise words and my gratitude to wise women here on the forum. I can have conversations with you
that don't happen in my daily life very often.
With gratitude to Wise Women
Bravo! At 83 I am married but I'm alone, since Val is 99 and in our nursing facility. For me the big thing is my community. I/we tried two other retirement communities and found disgruntled people there waiting to die. Not very attractive. What makes our present retirement community different is that it is non-profit; therefore it is legal for us to volunteer. (State laws prevent that in for-profit institutions because exploitation could result.)
We are large in census and acreage and forty years old, so there's lots of experience here regarding what does and doesn't work. We don't have to volunteer...and many of us do less as less of it as the years go by but I think that's where the fun lies. Val and I have been here 10 years. The point it that a non-profit, Continuous Care Retirement Community offers us the priceless gift of being useful. Not busy work...making a useful contribution. This facility is church-owned but we are not of the same faith and that has never mattered. There are grand units here, two-level, 1,700 sq. ft., and there are low-income, HUD, studio units (where I live.)
Our families are as involved as they want to be but we have created an extended family that really matters a lot. Last year we put in over 35,000 hours of volunteering on campus. We replaced 18 full-time employees and we raised over $100,000 that we poured back into the community.
There are lots more women than men and yes, once in a while, there's a marriage. My point is that this isn't the answer for everyone but most elders, predominately women, don't have to be alone, live on a poverty level or live with families that may not want them there. People here are offered HUD housing and can receive Medicaid assistance. Some come here in their 60s and have another whole lifetime of fun and giving.
The staff here is wonderful and the attrition is very low. We also have a life-expectancy beyond the norm. I have a friend here who is 104, living in an independent unit, volunteering in our Manor Mart (grocery) and is writing a book...yes! on her computer!
There are options...that's all I'm saying. Check it out. www.warmbeach.org
wow luise! what a wonderful place you live in! i shall hope to have such luck when we become of age. warm beach here we come!
(well, not for a few years, but soon) thank you for sharing that luise!
;D ;D ;D
Luise, that sounds really wonderful!
Especially nice too that you and your husband can be together.
in california where I used to live, continuous care was sometimes cost prohibitive
but ideal
Luise,
This is a paradise. I especially liked the "Resident Spotlight" photo of the community's most beautiful resident on the home page. You were lucky to find it, but they are so lucky also to have you.
Enjoy!
Kathleen
Yup, that's me smiling away on the Home Page! :D I moved within walking distance of this place in the early 70s, (different husband) so it's been part of my world for a long time. Val and I volunteered here as Ordained, Catholic, Eucharistic Ministers for years, so we knew staff when we moved in. People come here from all over the country. Well, all over the world, actually, because there are many retired ministers and missionaries here. I just love it! 8)
It's a 50/50 gamble when raising kids, and it takes a lot of effort to maintain your own interests and identity while doing so. While some children may thrive with a milk-and-cookies mom, others may chafe. While some may value a mom who spends time on her own interests and needs, others will feel abandoned.
Some parents don't have much of a choice either way due to their particular circumstances, such as raising disabled children, or caring for an aging parent or a disabled spouse, so building outside relationships, new skills and financial security isn't always possible.
Whichever way we choose to handle family life we should not be left lonely and uncared for in our golden years. My heart goes out to those who are living out their lives w/o family or other resources.
Luise, I'm so glad you found a great, supportive, stimulating, & fulfilling place to live! It does seem like paradise.
Quote from: luise.volta on November 17, 2010, 02:06:42 PM
Yup, that's me smiling away on the Home Page! :D I moved within walking distance of this place in the early 70s, (different husband) so it's been part of my world for a long time. Val and I volunteered here as Ordained, Catholic, Eucharistic Ministers for years, so we knew staff when we moved in. People come here from all over the country. Well, all over the world, actually, because there are many retired ministers and missionaries here. I just love it! 8)
Hey there you are Luise as resident of the month! I know you have talked about this before on
other posts but where is Stanwood, Wa? North of Seattle?
Yes, Stanwood is about 50 miles North of Seattle, and maybe 10 miles West of the freeway that goes up into B.C. It's a small and funky, 100 year-old, former port.
How lovely and I like the proximity to Seattle.
I have a meditation teacher and community in Seattle
Wonderful! I do, too. That's Seattle for you! :)
Hello Tara
continuing the conversation which you directed, which I'd like to elaborate on and thank you for the discussion....
in my case, my very own mother, birthed me single...she was and always has been a very cruel and selfish person. She used me as a supplimental income, by making me work when I was 13 ( I didn't mind) until I was 15 and then obtained a job as a waitress, working after school and every weekend, (still didn't mind)
When I graduated from High School, upon that time, she informed me, that I wasn't going to college. She said, I was going to get a full time job and give her every cent I made, to pay her back for raising me.
If it hadn't been for the family who took me into they're home and practically raised me, since I was 5 years old, I'd probably be certifiable.
My mother has always been dysfunctionial...and selfish. When my last step father was dying, she made such a stink, the doctor called me in on a Sunday morning when she wasn't there and proceeded to yell at me about how nuts my mother was....she was very very cruel to my step dad, and he was a good person. I still to this day, cannot forget how badly she treated him. She hit him and hit all her husbands, until they lost it and beat her up or hit her back. She would follow you around the house, yelling and screaming and saying she didn't say things when she did...she beat me, constantly, and even remember as a baby laying in my crib, and being slapped across the face...I've lost hearing due to the impacting slaps across the ears and have had bloody noses, not to mention all the mental abuse that I won't go into.
She has no one but me...no one liked her...or could stand to be around her...
I had two knee replacements, and never once did she phone me, or ask me if I needed anything during my recoup...and it's ok, I wouldn't have asked her for anything....however, when ever she is sick, she not only calls me to run her around, but milks me dry using me to do her grocery shopping...and inevidably, if I pick something up that is wrong, she makes me return it.
As a little child, I had to do the grocery shopping and the men in the store felt so sorry for me, they helped me carry the bags of groceries upstairs in the apartment. We lived above that grocery store, and those men heard all her yelling and screaming and me crying, however, they never called child services.
When I was a kid in school, she made me go to school sick, b/c she said I was faking. Once it was so bad, my apendix almost burst...b/c she said I was faking.
She constantly accussed me of lieing and talked about me, telling people I was a problem child. I was not, as I was so afraid of her, that I really towed the line...and can state now, I was a good daughter and polite.
There is tons more, but it upsets me to go into it. Now she is sick, and needs my help, however, truth be told, I so do not want to be around her...or help her, and I have to but resent it....she uses people and plays sick, so that she can drain you of all your time. She loves the attention...and has been dying ever since I can remember...always complaining about her health, and her health problems are always worse then anyone else's. If you try and make her feel better, she gets angry, and yet, she never asks how anyone is doing? How my son is doing, or grand daughter, or his wife? Once, when my son was little I asked her if she'd like to have him for the day, and her reply was, "Why what would I do with him".
So, what I'm trying to say is this...I am so sad, b/c my own mother is this type of person, however, I don't think of her as my mother, and I do so resent having to run my butt off trying to help her...however, she has no one else and I cannot abandon her, but I don't like her....or even love her....isn't that awful to say or admit?
So, when you see people alone in nursing homes, and they're children don't come to visit much, it's wrong, however, even in the community I now live in, when I don't see children coming around to help they're parents much, I have to wonder, what kind of parents they were? Were they mean like my own mother, or did they simply give they're kids to much and now, the kids don't want to do anything for them.
My own mother used to say to me, "Everyone likes you, but if they only knew what you were really like????"
This was hard to write, and I am embarrassed to admit it, but my mother is growing more ill, and is presently in the hopital....I am angry, b/c she may have to come and stay with me....I'm angry, b/c she is so selfish, and other then feed me and cloth me, while I was growing up, she did me more harm then good. She used to scream at me, "I could have given you up, but I didn't and you ruined my life"...because of you, this or that....it was horrible. My own cousins will not ever deal with her or visit her or call her, b/c they saw how ugly she was to me....
The saving grace is, I vowed I would never grow up to be like her....and was afraid I would....so, you can understand how greatful I was to my foster parents, matter of fact, I stayed with my foster mother until the end, taking care of her. She was a wonderful giving mother....
So, Tara, if I could, I would run away, never to see my mother again or help her, or visit her in the hospital, or run her around....but I can't...and yet, everytime I'm around her, I dislike her very much....and tonight, I have to go into her house, b/c she wants me to take out her trash, and find her living will....then return her key to her, b/c I refuse to keep it....you know why? Because she is going to accuse me of stealing something....
I'm sorry, it's just so upsetting, I can't abandon her, yet, I resent helping my own mother, isn't that awful...what would God think of me?
If I gained weight she'd call me fat, if I lost weight she'd say I was skinny, or my hair looks awful, or my clothes are not right.
She used to watch me come home from a date, and if I'd kiss my date good night, she'd slap me silly and accuse me of doing all kinds of horrible things. She kept telling me, I was going to get pregnant...do you know, I was so determined to not fulfill her profacy, that I was a virgin when I married. I never drank or did any drugs, and was quit popular in school, the only thing I did wrong as a child, was that I just couldn't consentrate in school and my marks were always low....then I'd get beat for that....
Thanks for letting me vent...b/c right now, it's very difficult. I don't know what I'll do if she has to come and live with me, she will drive me crazy....and snoop in all my personal things....she is a very angry, hateful person....and I just wish so much, I wouldn't be angry when I'm around her, but I really dislike her....it is the one thing in my entire life I could never control....my dislike for her, and fighting back verbally....why do I even bother arguing with her? Why do I allow her to get to me so badly....
There was a time in my life, when I really hated her....I don't hate her, I hate what she's done to people....and if you confront her she lies...yet, everyone else treated her so God awful....and she hated anyone who was well to do....
She hated it that I was popular in school, and my counselor told me, she was jealous of me....she wanted me to fail...she has never ever said, "you did good Creme", quit the opposite....she would find something wrong with everything about me....even my successes....
again, I don't know, what I'm going to do with her...she is a handful...to say the least....
she is one of God's children, a human being, and my worse nightmare...how can I feel like this about her, and why can't I just keep my mouth shut and allow things she says and does to roll off my back....why do I so resent doing things for her....and the moment I'm around her, I can feel me being angry...I hate being around her so much, all I want to do is run....
If anyone has any advise, please feel free to advise, I would so appreciate it if I could somehow, change my feelings towards her and feel sympathy for her instead of resentment....
It's just that I cannot forget what she did and said to my step father, while he was dying...she was God awful to him....and a very sick woman....she used him like she used everyone else, and he was good to her....really good to her....but, I feared being alone with him or getting to close, b/c she'd accuse us of horrible things, so I stayed my distance....awful....
thank you
Creme
Hi Creme,
Your story was not a happy one, but you have now become a very strong woman, and given advice to many women on this forum including myself. I am gradually starting to feel a little bit better sometimes, after reading your many posts and understanding that I expected far too much, I just expected that my children would continue to love me all my life, and would always be in it . I had a controlling mother myself but I always did as much as I could for her (I was working full time when she was really sick, so could not be there 24 hours a day), and at the time my dds were young adults and very supportive. But I don't know if my dds would be there for me.
Is there any alternative to her moving in with you? If it has to happen, you are now the stronger person and she is the weaker.
Well, Creme, you sure don't have to worry about going to hell after this life....if that is part of your belief system. Been there, done that and the devil was/is your mother. It just breaks my heart.
Here is what I would do. I'd find out what options would be available to her if she had no family and I would see to it that she was taken care of. There are many childless women in the world; they get old, need help...where does it come from? A Rehabilitation Center? Visiting nurses? Welfare? Selling a home and going into an assisted care facility? I wouldn't abandon her, I'd make arrangements for her. I'd hire someone to take out her trash. In other words...I would protect my sanity by creating distance. And the days of being available, at her beck and call and her whipping post would come to an end. You deserve dignity and respect and you can give it to yourself. Sending love...
Quote from: jill on November 18, 2010, 07:31:57 AM
Hi Creme,
Your story was not a happy one, but you have now become a very strong woman, and given advice to many women on this forum including myself. I am gradually starting to feel a little bit better sometimes, after reading your many posts and understanding that I expected far too much, I just expected that my children would continue to love me all my life, and would always be in it . I had a controlling mother myself but I always did as much as I could for her (I was working full time when she was really sick, so could not be there 24 hours a day), and at the time my dds were young adults and very supportive. But I don't know if my dds would be there for me.
Is there any alternative to her moving in with you? If it has to happen, you are now the stronger person and she is the weaker.
Hello Jill
So good to hear your feeling better....
sending heartfelt thanks in appreciation your way...
Jill, it isn't easy growing up and growing old, there are many life lessons to learn....but I will say, the one I've learned about my son and DIL was to me, the most valuable for personal growth...it was extremely painful....like all of you are experiencing...and I don't see them nearly as much as I'd like to...
Jill, in all honesty and said with much love...we must let people in our lives go forward, and encourage them to go....some people we meet in our lives are there forever, and others, for only brief moments....including immediate family members. In this day and age, with the economy and our worlds many problems, changes and growth...most of us will not own that Norman Rockwell family...that time is long gone...it's a faster world, and technology has not only afforded us, much distance between us, but also we must go where the money is...where jobs are....we are no longer a society that depends on only family.
Life is so short, we cannot afford to obsess about our children and "what if's" or "what could have beens"
Life is not always fair....and yes, we give our lives to our kids, but that doesn't mean, they owe us anything...it would certainly be nice, however, they are not indebted to us...and we are not to them....we love them with our entire souls....but until they're children reach an age that they are, they will never understand what we mothers have gone thru and how could they.
I to thought, actually had to make it up in my mind, that my DIL was so evil that she changed my son entirely....yes, there are extreme cases where the son does go along with the DIL to keep peace, but my DIL was not evil....she was infact, struggling to form her own family....and my son chose her to love and cherish...and now looking back, I can honestly see how utterly selfish I was being...how much I must have hurt them both...and how I and I alone, estranged them from me....and the more I fought it, the more painful it was, the more I kept saying, "I did nothing to cause this", the harder the fall, and more complicated it became, confusing, despairing and unbearably defiant....
My son never changed, he just grew up and became a man, who wanted to live life on his own now. My job was over, and it was time to kick him out of the nest....he found his true love and moved away from home....
People cannot change people....what happens is a union, between two people who decide together, what and who they will become....if that includes extended family, fine...but if it doesn't, it's no one's fault....simply put....it's life, and change....which is always happening...the easier we can wish them well, and be thankful for the morsals we get, the better off we are and the quicker peace embraces our souls....the more we fight it, the more painful it becomes....we cannot expect our children to live out our fantasies...and so so many times, I've read the very same thing on many forums....
1. We immediately loved our DIL
2. She changed our son
3. My son is no longer the person I knew
4. She has turned him against his family
5. They have distanced themselves from us
6. I didn't do anything to cause this
Our son's move out to live on they're own, unfortunately there are a lot of us women, not all, but a lot, who make they're children/grandchildren they're whole lives....that isn't healthy.
A lot of women take offense to my posts, b/c they simply do not understand....instead, they take it as a personal attack, and it isn't....they take they're son's actions as a personal attack, but it usually isn't meant that way...all our son's for the most part are trying to say, "We want to be with our wives, we want to make them happy and we go where she wants to go and be".
Being the mother of a son isn't fair....however, believe me, there are many more mothers of sons who get along with they're DIL's then not...they simply have no need to be on the internet searching for support, b/c they're happy with themselves, they're relationships and growth.
I wrote before, we humans can be very selfish beings...we want, what we want, when we want it....and we can also be very negative people....who either fear being happy, or just can't seem to identify happy moments, b/c we were raised to be negative, to only look for unhappiness....we complain and act out like small children....but we are God's children, and God doesn't show off, more so, he gives us the gift of life, and free will, and we do have choices....most times, we are products of our own choices....
We can choose to fight real hard for what we expect, or we can choose to allow and when we choose to allow, and move our selves foreward, is when peace comes....
It hurts to have lost children to adulthood....however, it's part of life, they're gone and there isn't a darn thing we can do about it...but hope that they will return, but believe me, the more we fight it, and demand and expect things of them, the more they will estrange themselves from us, and it isn't all DIL's fault....our son's for many reasons, not one, also choose to make this estrangement....
some have very controlling wives, but most do not....all it is about, is that we have been mother's for so long, when our children were little they listened, and we got our ways, right or wrong, we were used to being the matron and calling the shots...now, we're no longer in charge, and that in itself is pretty hard to swallow....
We interfer and we don't even realize it....why, because that is simply who we are, some DIL's are able to understand and accept us the way we are and laugh about it....however, others are not...and take huge offense....which can be life altering for all of us....
We also have to understand that we women can be vile creatures if we don't get our ways....we can make life miserable for everyone, including ourselves...we make ourselves victims...
or
we can realize, that hey, all I ever wanted was for my son to be happy, and that may not include me....so, whatever, I wish him a great and successful life, and if I am included even greater, and if not, so be it, as now it's time for me to change and become involved in other things...he's gone and there isn't anything I can do about it....so, I can make up stories in my head and choose to believe them about what a wicked witch DIL is, or I can face the fact, that somehow we got off on the wrong foot, and understand, that while I didn't mean it, I did offend DIL, with my confidence as a parent, maybe I offered to much advice, or had this take charge attitude, and expected way to much from her, a total stranger who didn't know me from Adam, but I expected her to fall in love with me immediately, and she didn't and/couldn't, b/c simply put, it wasn't in her culture, she is different, thinks and feels differently about things and is defininately unable to love me unconditionally like my son used to.
Remember how it was when we were growing up? We adored our parents...they could do no wrong, and what they said was the gosple. However, when we grew older and became parents ourselves, we began to see they're flaws, but were still unable to say 'NO" to them, b/c they were our parents....
Well, our son's are the same way, sometimes we put them in a position where they have to choose, or, they want to say no to us and are unable to .....so to bring peace to they're lives, they distance themselves from us....
simple, really, but we make it so so hard.
We are our own worst enemys....and my own mother can see the darkness in everything and everyone....she is unable to see goodness and look more towards the positive.
My foster mother thought, it was her purpose in life to worry, so much so, that she drove us all nuts...worried herself sick and everyone else around her, b/c she was unable to see any positive....however, she was totally the opposite from my maternal mother, she was giving, kind and caring and would give you the shirt off her back....
but the woman looked for things to worry about....she would take one instance, and find more negative in it then positive....
however, she wouldn't complain....my maternal mother would complain and complain....and if she couldn't find something to complain about, she'd make something up....
We forget, to look for the good....some of us don't know how....and I don't mean us here, but society....I don't know how any of you are really....however, you all know yourselves, even if we don't want to admit it to ourselves....we all possess good and bad, and we do make mistakes, so what...why is it so darn hard to say and admit to ourselves, that hey "I made a mistake"....so what???? Big deal...so we learn from it....and go forward...that is life....and our personal journey...so we have a choice, to go forward, or stay stagnated within our own self pity....
I choose life, and change, and to learn acceptance, no matter how drastic the change may be....there is nothing I can do about it and the harder I fight it, the harder I make things on myself....
I refuse to make my son feel like he owes me anything, he doesn't. I decided to conceive him and birth him, he didn't have a choice...I did my best, made some huge mistakes and some small ones, we all do...and so will our sons....that to is life...
it could all be so darn easy, we are the ones that make it hard....by refusing to allow....allow people to live how they choose, to think how they think, it's they're turn, we had our chance, we had our children, and we can't go back there, it's gone forever...and the sooner we give in to that, the happier we might be....
This post is in no way meant to refect on any member of this forum...please take what works for you and leave the rest.
Love
Creme
Creme,your life,your story is just heart breaking.
I would do exactly what Lusie suggested,you would not be abandoning her.
Being loyal when we shouldn't be............a hard one for me,i struggle,and still learning.
Luise and Rose
thanks so much for your advice...it's my fault and my choice, that I make myself her victim...believe me, I understand what your both saying....a cousin whose mother is exactly like mine, hasn't spoken to her own mother in years...oh, perhaps 30 or so? I suppose, it's my foster mother in me, many have said, she gets what she gave....but I am unable to abandon her, wish I could, but that would be simple. There are no alternative, and I refuse to make her someone else's problem...she's real hard to take and she has no one...no one, but me....and yes, she is extremely narcissistic...the only thing I have to hold onto is to understand, she had a horrible childhood, however, this has got to be learned behavior, b/c while none of us know our grand mother, her one sister is like her, the other one, we don't know to much about, and the other one killed herself...? But we believe it to be from a very hard upbringing...I really do think, she believes, that violence is love?
I know I should probably do as you say Luise, but I can't....first, its very difficult for me to ask anyone for help...second, don't know if I could live with myself if I did....
I just like anything wish, I could somehow forgive her for what she's done, so I wouldn't resent being around her so much....I am saying no to her more, b/c I just cannot be there for her beckoned call....she expects me to do so much more then I am able to do, with my own life and a full time job....so, she is only going to get what I'm able to give....
and I won't allow her to pay me, b/c she feels if she pays me, she has my soul...no thank you....
So, I'll just have to learn how to deal with it....the part that is most upsetting is, not being able to keep my mouth shut, and the huge resentment...
they say, love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend....I wish I could love her, but I can't....I feel sorry for her, and I don't hate her...but I don't like her very much.
This is a hurtle that I'm trying to go over....I don't know how to just let things roll off and ignore her words...her actions and her hate towards others....this is something I must learn, and I don't know how....yet....
Hugs to you
Creme
Quote from: Mominwaiting on November 18, 2010, 08:39:02 AM
Creme,your life,your story is just heart breaking.
I would do exactly what Lusie suggested,you would not be abandoning her.
Being loyal when we shouldn't be............a hard one for me,i struggle,and still learning.
Hey Mominwaiting, thanks so much for responding....
Honestly, it's not so heartbreaking, it would have been if it wouldn't have been for so so many kind people in my life, and the many positive influences....like my foster parents....and my sisters and brother....back then, there were so many parents that felt badly b/c I didn't have a father, that they included me in they're families....not one, but many....I had a lot of friends, and got to go a lot of places, b/c those parents called up my mother and asked her permission to take me along....she couldn't say no, for fear of being judged....
Do you know she wouldn't even come to my graduation, and never attended any of my school activities....again, my counselor said, it was because she was jealous, can you imagine being jealous of your own child?
But anyway, I've been so blessed in so many ways, and Mom, it made me a stronger person, and perhaps prepared me for the next hurdle in life...I really do believe that...it was supposed to be my own personal journey, my destiny so to speak....I don't know, but I do know there was purpose and many life lessons in that experience....
I am one very fortunate woman, to have come out of that, and not be like her...that was my worst fear...
but thank you so much for your kindness....
Creme
Creme,just throwing out some thoughts,OK........things to think about.
You said you couldn't live with yourself..........why?what are you judging yourself about?
You wish you could just let what she says roll off of you..........you really should,it's not about you...........her actions are all about her,her mental illness.Thats how she treats everyone...........nothing should be taken personally.
I know there are things I let roll off me that I know are about others...but...when someone throws acid at you, your skin rolls off. I simply can't imagine surviving such long-term and unbelievable abuse. I'm in shock. I'm not naive but I have no frame of reference. We love you, Creme.
Rose
thank you Rose....really...I appreciate you and your feedback...
MIW....hugs and many thanks for your thoughts, they are appreciated....I'll keep them in mind....I just don't like the way I feel when I'm around her...the anger, resentment and dislike for her...she embarrasses me....ans wish I could look past it and understand she is mentally unstable....I really feel, this to is part of my journey and somehow I must overcome those feelings...
Luise....
thanks so much for your love and support and for this forum...
it helped to be able to vent it out....and appreciate your love, believe me...
all of you...
Tara, I want to apologize for hijacking your thread, I know it's no excuse, however, it just all came rolling out....and venting helped....hope you don't mind.
Creme
I think if we stuck carefully to the subject of each thread it would dampen down our spontaneity. We hijack threads...post under the wrong categories and wander all over the place. I love it!
Oh Creme,you feel like it's part of your journey :'(" your only way to be able to cope with the abuse"
I will keep you in my prayers,that you can overcome those feelings.God did not intend for our journey to be a painful one.Looking back over my life,there was always a cross road,with each bad experience.I always seemed to choose the wrong one.I thought it was the right one at the time.But it always took me off my path,or walk with God.IMO,if i would of kept closer to God in prayer and his word,i wouldn't of had to keep going thru the same lessons over and over to learn what i needed to learn.
I'm sure you feel just awful when you are around her,rightfully so you feel so much angry and resentment.This is not healthy for you.
I hope by opening up about this you are able to work thru this and find peace.
Sending Love and prayers
dear Creme,
Thank you for sharing your story. My heart is very touched and I can personally relate as I also not treated well by my FOO when
growing up. My mom had some of your moms traits however she was more of a borderline personality so she would
function pretty well for some periods and then flip into the dysfunctional, abusive side. I was the eldest girl in the family
and turned into the au pair of the family. I didn't have a foster family as you did but did 'run away from home' the minute I graduated from high school and was taken in by a lovely family for a year which I will be forever grateful for. More on my story another time.
I very much agree with Luise that you have been through hell and back and are a wise caring woman. Here is something
to reflect on: I don't know you very well at this point but wonder if the reason you feel so stressed around her (besides the
fact that she is so narcissistic and abusive) is that you have been traumatized and retraumatized. When we have trauma (I've had my share of that too) we can develop ptsd kinds of symptoms where we have whats called hyper arousal and I wonder if
thats why you feel so stressed and angry around your mom. You are a human and have good values and ethics re: your mom
but maybe its possible you are expecting yourself to be superhuman.
You have mentioned that God will judge you for negative thoughts about your mother. I trust that God or spirit is compassionate
Creme. I believe that the spirit/god/buddha lives within each of us and I can see your light shining strong. Hard to miss.
Re: not letting things roll off that you mom says I was that way when my mom was alive as well. Now that she
is passed I sometimes wonder if I could have fully realized how mentally ill she was and gotten some help from groups like NAMI
who works with families of mentally ill http://www.nami.org/ or from a wise skillful therapist, I might have been able to have a different angle on interacting with her. but it was what it was. And abuse/aggression is not easy to take. When I was a girl/teen I would try and try to 'take it' from my mom then would get pms be less 'in control' and 'talk back'. then the proverbial s*#*# would hit the fan.
Along with Luise I think that you ideally would research some other options for your mom that you can feel good about. I worked for
a few years in aging and know there are lots of different options interms of assisted living, foster homes, etc. Some are excellent, some are not, some so so. ...all vary so visiting them, doing site visits meeting the staff and figuring out what financial options your mom has can be extremely useful. Please take good care of you. I have talked to quite a few Adult Children in my past work who have taken in their parents and even in easy relationships without parental mental illness it can be so completely challenging and life transforming Hate to be one sided, some people enjoyed it.
finally Creme, you didn't hijack the topic. When read your second post and it was like listening to pure wisdom on the wise women issues. Thank you, I'm grateful to you and glad to be getting to know you.
Creme my heart breaks for you. You must be a very strong lady to go through so much and come out such a wonderful person.
I hope you look into putting your M in a nursing home and that she gets the care she needs from them. Maybe living there they will see her behavior and discover she is bipolar or has some treatable problem. Wouldn't it be wonderful if they could fix her and you could get to know a different side of her?
My concern is your future. I don't fear that you will turn out like your M at all. What I am concerned with is when your M passes. I have learned that the only thing worse then having a loved one who is close to you that is truely wonderful pass is to lose someone who is horrible, especially when there are others saying that he/she is wonderful for the funeral. The emotions run like a roller coaster and you feel like a monster for some of your feelings. I hope that when the time comes you have the love and support that you'll need to get through it.
You have gone far beyond what anyone should expect of you. You should be proud of what you have accomplished and how you have persevered.
Creme:
I felt really sad to read your story. A very sad story. There are women who are not born to be mothers.....yours is one of them. You are a very strong person (we all know that) and maybe due to all that you went through. "That which does not kill you make you stronger".
I had wonderful parents.....and I am a little insecure at times....so we really dont know what the formula is for raising strong healthy and secure children. The only thing that makes me understand my insecurities is that when I was a child, there was a drug problem with one of my youngest brothers. I was very much afraid of him when he came home high....I would start screaming because I thought that he would harm my family or me (physically). I was about 13 and my brother was 11. I used to hear my parents crying in their room wondering what they hav e done wrong. Hearing them behind doors broke my heart. My family was well-to=do......catholic...decent, etc. What went wrong? Dont know....
You are a survivor....and a winner....
Love
"My mother has always been dysfunctionial...and selfish. When my last step father was dying, she made such a stink, the doctor called me in on a Sunday morning when she wasn't there and proceeded to yell at me about how nuts my mother was....she was very very cruel to my step dad, and he was a good person." --- Creme
Creme,
My mother was like yours. She put me in charge of my siblings. I didn't have three children, but by the time I was twelve I was raising them. This led to a situation of resentment from my sisters, against my mother but they took it out on me. Believe me, I worked through this for a year after my mother died with a very competent, analytical therapist, not into "pop" theories, plus I read a book on it. It is not uncommon for siblings to displace anger at a parent onto the sibling who, through no fault of her own, replaces the parenting duties.
Here's the deal: when my mother was sick and dying in the nursing home, I went to see her. Prior to that I had offered that she come and live with us; mercifully, she didn't want to move to another area of the country. Yes, I'm old-fashioned, and I do believe children have an honor and a duty toward parents who raised them, no matter our feelings. My mother died, and of course the very angry siblings made certain we did not have information about the funeral in time to get there. Previous, my sister also had placed me on a list when Mom was in the hospital denying me information about her. When I went to visit her, a very kind nurse approached me---without me saying a word---and said she couldn't help but notice the "dynamic" in the family, here is her phone number, and call this nurse at any time for information. My mother created this situation. She set it up, then was unhappy about it---the hostility from my siblings---and as of old, expected me to solve it!
When Mom died, I never cried. To this day, I never have. I have just worked through this with a friend who, with her mother, was forced to care for her dad when he had Alzheimer's. He had been a drunken, abusive parent. He died just as they were about to lose their home to pay for care for him. She was the first person I told about not mourning for my mother. And she made me feel OK about it. Not only did she not cry when her father passed, she rejoiced. The long decades of carrying his baggage were over. Still, they had done their best for him when he was old. She has that to warm her in her old age. It's not what he did; it's how they acted that counts.
We can't place love into a loveless situation. I honored my mother in her lifetime for what she did do for me, rather than focus on what she hadn't done right. When my father divorced her, we gave her a home for a year until she got on her feet. Yes, I was a nervous wreck during that year and put up with her negativity and criticism, but I am glad I did it. This might not be a fashionable way to react today (also she had free access to my children, and became a very good grandmother, which sometimes happens when stresses during raising children are removed) but now that she is gone I can look back and know I did my best for her.
It's really not about what your mother did to you; its about the love and concern you are showing her now. If she's a problem in your home then by all means consider outside care for her. You don't have to be a martyr to take good care of your parent. But whatever you do, don't feel guilt, angst, or self-reproach about your feelings. I had a very loving father---who also had faults---but I felt entirely different about him when he got old and died.
Accept that no matter how old you get, you probably can't just let your mother's harmful criticism just "roll off." I never could. But you can look for reinforcement of who you really are from others who support you. We couldn't do this growing up, but now we are old enough to know how to try and cope with it.
By the way, perhaps you posted elsewhere, but I think your son was due home in September? I, too, posted this question elsewhere. If I have that right please send news,
Good luck,
Kathleen
Hi Rose and Good Morning
thanks so much for you thoughts and taking the time to respond...
I'm much better today...and mom has improved, they are moving her to another hospital to perform a cathertization...they're not sure what is going on, so, today may bring some solid ground...if it's only the cathertization, to unblock a blockage, sheesh, that's minor...I was concerned about something worse...so, we'll see....there may be a need for a pacemaker in the near future, however, that still is minor compared to what it could be.
She is looking into assistant living now, there is a two to three year waiting period....so, we'll see what happens with that...I'm helping her as much as I can. She doesn't have a lot of money and I don't know the in's and outs of all of this yet.
Yesterday I was tired from all the running around....but this morning I do feel refreshed and more relieved....I will do what I can, yanno.
As far as funeral arrangements, she wants nothing, and wants to be cremated....which is what I want to. I'm a firm believer that I want people to remember me how I used to be, and not a corpse in some casket....I can't do funerals real well, and refrain from going if I can....and have decided I don't want to put my son thru that. To me, like everything else, it's become a huge money making market for funeral homes and I detest them taking advantage of families who so believe they need to have a funeral. Not for me....
I believe my mom, will go out kicking and screaming....as much as she complains and says, "I wish I could just close my eyes", she doesn't mean it... ;D
I did also speak to her doctor last night who is head of the cardiac department which helped a lot...at least now I have some facts...
And, I'm really not concerned about what other people think and say about me, that is the least of all my worries, I promise... ;D
Rose, at 61 years old, I believe I'm pretty set in who I am and how I'm going to be....when I do get moody and things upset me, there is some fear of being like her, however, I also know, that a lot of my hyper anxiety is from MS....so, it pretty much disipates....
I think everything will be fine, especially after all the support I received from you guys, it helps to be able to vent, and also, to read your replies, and it could always be a lot worse....for now, I don't think she'll have to come live with me, and I'm looking at the world in a whole new light now...what ever God's will be done...yanno...
thank you so much for your kindness....
Creme
Nana
QuoteYou are a survivor....and a winner....
Hey Nana, Good Morning and thanks so much for your post....
yes, we are survivors, and winners, and in my case, it could always have been a lot worse...
yes, life as a child was hard, however, some have it much worse...so....it is what it is...and I've certainly learned a lot from it...not to mention, been blessed with so many friends and good influences as a child, that I believe I turned out ok... ;D but I am truly blessed and have so much to be thankful for....
someone posted yesterday, that I made the statement, "this is part of my journey", and she thought I was telling my self that to dismiss the abuse..."....
actually, what I believe my journey is, is to learn how to dismiss and overlook my mother's terrible behavior, and feel empathy for her. I used to be sad, b/c we were never close, however, you can't miss what you've never known, right?
My journey is to learn how to keep my mouth shut when she goes off on me....it's just words, and she can't hit me anymore, she's shribbled into this little ol lady who would never be able to hurt me physically again...and it doesn't really hurt me emotionally, what bothers me the most is being around her....she doesn't feel like my mother if that makes any sense....it feels like she's this pain in the butt, acquaintence that I have to learn to allow her words to roll off my back....and I have learned to say no to her....
Hugs Nana, and love
Creme
Quote from: kathleen on November 19, 2010, 04:25:38 AM
"My mother has always been dysfunctionial...and selfish. When my last step father was dying, she made such a stink, the doctor called me in on a Sunday morning when she wasn't there and proceeded to yell at me about how nuts my mother was....she was very very cruel to my step dad, and he was a good person." --- Creme
Creme,
My mother was like yours. She put me in charge of my siblings. I didn't have three children, but by the time I was twelve I was raising them. This led to a situation of resentment from my sisters, against my mother but they took it out on me. Believe me, I worked through this for a year after my mother died with a very competent, analytical therapist, not into "pop" theories, plus I read a book on it. It is not uncommon for siblings to displace anger at a parent onto the sibling who, through no fault of her own, replaces the parenting duties.
Here's the deal: when my mother was sick and dying in the nursing home, I went to see her. Prior to that I had offered that she come and live with us; mercifully, she didn't want to move to another area of the country. Yes, I'm old-fashioned, and I do believe children have an honor and a duty toward parents who raised them, no matter our feelings. My mother died, and of course the very angry siblings made certain we did not have information about the funeral in time to get there. Previous, my sister also had placed me on a list when Mom was in the hospital denying me information about her. When I went to visit her, a very kind nurse approached me---without me saying a word---and said she couldn't help but notice the "dynamic" in the family, here is her phone number, and call this nurse at any time for information. My mother created this situation. She set it up, then was unhappy about it---the hostility from my siblings---and as of old, expected me to solve it!
When Mom died, I never cried. To this day, I never have. I have just worked through this with a friend who, with her mother, was forced to care for her dad when he had Alzheimer's. He had been a drunken, abusive parent. He died just as they were about to lose their home to pay for care for him. She was the first person I told about not mourning for my mother. And she made me feel OK about it. Not only did she not cry when her father passed, she rejoiced. The long decades of carrying his baggage were over. Still, they had done their best for him when he was old. She has that to warm her in her old age. It's not what he did; it's how they acted that counts.
We can't place love into a loveless situation. I honored my mother in her lifetime for what she did do for me, rather than focus on what she hadn't done right. When my father divorced her, we gave her a home for a year until she got on her feet. Yes, I was a nervous wreck during that year and put up with her negativity and criticism, but I am glad I did it. This might not be a fashionable way to react today (also she had free access to my children, and became a very good grandmother, which sometimes happens when stresses during raising children are removed) but now that she is gone I can look back and know I did my best for her.
It's really not about what your mother did to you; its about the love and concern you are showing her now. If she's a problem in your home then by all means consider outside care for her. You don't have to be a martyr to take good care of your parent. But whatever you do, don't feel guilt, angst, or self-reproach about your feelings. I had a very loving father---who also had faults---but I felt entirely different about him when he got old and died.
Accept that no matter how old you get, you probably can't just let your mother's harmful criticism just "roll off." I never could. But you can look for reinforcement of who you really are from others who support you. We couldn't do this growing up, but now we are old enough to know how to try and cope with it.
By the way, perhaps you posted elsewhere, but I think your son was due home in September? I, too, posted this question elsewhere. If I have that right please send news,
Good luck,
Kathleen
Thank you Kathleen and your right,
my mother's mother passed away when she was very young, and she had to quit school and raise her three sisters and assume responsiblity for them, plus my grand-father was a drunk and used to beat them, and I do believe there is some incest involved as well....so, she had a pretty tough life
I'm not excusing her actions but, understanding, when she became pregnant with me, and my real father refused to marry her, she was during that time, banned from society...that was 61 years ago....can you imagine how crazy that must have made her? Being banned from society? Plus compounding her childhood.
All of your posts have spoke volumns to me, and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to share thoughts and your stories with me...it has helped....
Kathleen, I'm sending hugs, and many thanks to all of you....I was down yesterday...depressed, and afraid....but today the sun rose and I got a lot of sleep and feel refreshed and ready for anything....there is much to say for the saying, "tomorrow is a brand new day".
I'm greatful for all of you, for the time you all took to be supportive and caring...you are appreciated for your concern
Thank you
and thank you for your sisterhood!
My story is just that, a story...like every one else, we all have a story to tell, please don't feel sad....ladies, we are who we are b/c of our pasts....and I feel while it was hard, at times, I at least had a family and friends family who influenced me in a very positive way...some are not as fortunate as I was....so, it's not all bad....and I have a whole lot of really good memories as a child...good experiences and still possess a lot of faith....so, I do really believe in desstiny and purpose in all of our journey's....there is a reason for everything, and I could have become a very cruel and bitter person, with a huge chip on my shoulder....but, I broke the pattern meaning, I wasn't like my mom, and my son is not like her...yanno, I could have turned into an abuser, but with greatness I didn't...and didn't pass that abusive nature down to my son...so, I broke that pattern....and hopefully, some way, and with much grace, I will be able to beat this to...and become as patient with my mother as I am with others? Who knows?
I just sometimes really fear her becoming so unable to care for herself, and her having to come to live with me....which would be the most God awful thing....but at least for now, It seems that I've been given a reprieve, and if that day ever comes, then I'm being prepared for it.
At least I'm consciense of it and am trying to control those feelings of anxiety and depression, and of course, the anger towards her....mental illness is just that, an illness, that went to long untreated....
Yanno, adding another thing, I was so affraid of turning out like my mother that I welcomed counseling any time the opportunity presented itself, so, I'm very lucky....
Hugs and sending love Kathleen, and thank you for your supportive and kind post.
I'm sorry our mothers were alike...I don't believe I'll cry either, if I do, it'll be because, I'm wishing things could have been different, but I quit longing for her approval of me a long time ago....
Hugs and sending you a whole lot of hugs and thank yous...
Yes, Kathleen, thank you, my son came home, and we're all so happy he made it home safely...however, my heart is still with those over there....such brave men and women they are....
Hello there!
I have a 5 yr old dd, happily married, both my parents passed, love my mil and fil and I'm nearing my forties soon. I am very ashamed that my generation is so selfish and disrespectful. Let me correct that...spoiled!!! The world has changed and the outlook isn't great for family relationships (by choice). I've had my trails with my in laws as well as my own parents... It happens! It's part of life! If the relationship between the child and the grandparent is unhealthy or dangerous then choices have to be made to protect that child. Understandable!!! Most grandparents are not in this category!! Some dil's do have extreme in law issues and have valid reason to cut out those individuals and protect their children. Again, understandable!! In my case, I do have wonderful in laws with strong personalities (mine is too). Several issues can develop because of strong opinions, generation gaps and crossing boundaries. The result is hurt feelings and over reacting on both sides. Unfortunately, the children are used as punishment... Why should children carry that burden? It's not right!! I'm grateful to have loving in laws who adore my dd and I can't imagine taking that experience away from each of them. So what... grandma gave the child a cookie!!! Oh well... grandma let the child play in the dirt while planting the garden! Boy oh boy... grandma suggested a new way of doing something and it actually worked better then dil's way! Children are blessings and not leverage!!
Welcome Butterfly Journey,
I would give ANYTHING to have a DIL with your attitude.I know there are still some really good ones in the world.
You wont have the inlaw problems alot of us have.You hit the nail on the head..............spoiled,that really says it all.
You are very blessed and a blessing
Quote from: Tara on November 18, 2010, 12:45:03 PM
dear Creme,
Thank you for sharing your story. My heart is very touched and I can personally relate as I also not treated well by my FOO when
growing up. My mom had some of your moms traits however she was more of a borderline personality so she would
function pretty well for some periods and then flip into the dysfunctional, abusive side. I was the eldest girl in the family
and turned into the au pair of the family. I didn't have a foster family as you did but did 'run away from home' the minute I graduated from high school and was taken in by a lovely family for a year which I will be forever grateful for. More on my story another time.
I very much agree with Luise that you have been through hell and back and are a wise caring woman. Here is something
to reflect on: I don't know you very well at this point but wonder if the reason you feel so stressed around her (besides the
fact that she is so narcissistic and abusive) is that you have been traumatized and retraumatized. When we have trauma (I've had my share of that too) we can develop ptsd kinds of symptoms where we have whats called hyper arousal and I wonder if
thats why you feel so stressed and angry around your mom. You are a human and have good values and ethics re: your mom
but maybe its possible you are expecting yourself to be superhuman.
You have mentioned that God will judge you for negative thoughts about your mother. I trust that God or spirit is compassionate
Creme. I believe that the spirit/god/buddha lives within each of us and I can see your light shining strong. Hard to miss.
Re: not letting things roll off that you mom says I was that way when my mom was alive as well. Now that she
is passed I sometimes wonder if I could have fully realized how mentally ill she was and gotten some help from groups like NAMI
who works with families of mentally ill http://www.nami.org/ or from a wise skillful therapist, I might have been able to have a different angle on interacting with her. but it was what it was. And abuse/aggression is not easy to take. When I was a girl/teen I would try and try to 'take it' from my mom then would get pms be less 'in control' and 'talk back'. then the proverbial s*#*# would hit the fan.
Along with Luise I think that you ideally would research some other options for your mom that you can feel good about. I worked for
a few years in aging and know there are lots of different options interms of assisted living, foster homes, etc. Some are excellent, some are not, some so so. ...all vary so visiting them, doing site visits meeting the staff and figuring out what financial options your mom has can be extremely useful. Please take good care of you. I have talked to quite a few Adult Children in my past work who have taken in their parents and even in easy relationships without parental mental illness it can be so completely challenging and life transforming Hate to be one sided, some people enjoyed it.
finally Creme, you didn't hijack the topic. When read your second post and it was like listening to pure wisdom on the wise women issues. Thank you, I'm grateful to you and glad to be getting to know you.
Hi Tara,
Thanks so much for your response, and please know I'm very sorry your mother was like that. Personally, and perhaps I'm wrong, but any abuse is hard, no matter how often it is....so, my heart is with you...
thank you for posting that link, I'm very appreciative....
also, thanks so much for the compliments...there are great ladies here, and this forum, for me, was and still is a wonderful place....it's comforting to know that so many women know and understand...
Many thanks Tara....looking forward to reading more of you.
Creme
Quote from: Butterfly Journey on November 19, 2010, 10:10:28 AM
Hello there!
I have a 5 yr old dd, happily married, both my parents passed, love my mil and fil and I'm nearing my forties soon. I am very ashamed that my generation is so selfish and disrespectful. Let me correct that...spoiled!!! The world has changed and the outlook isn't great for family relationships (by choice). I've had my trails with my in laws as well as my own parents... It happens! It's part of life! If the relationship between the child and the grandparent is unhealthy or dangerous then choices have to be made to protect that child. Understandable!!! Most grandparents are not in this category!! Some dil's do have extreme in law issues and have valid reason to cut out those individuals and protect their children. Again, understandable!! In my case, I do have wonderful in laws with strong personalities (mine is too). Several issues can develop because of strong opinions, generation gaps and crossing boundaries. The result is hurt feelings and over reacting on both sides. Unfortunately, the children are used as punishment... Why should children carry that burden? It's not right!! I'm grateful to have loving in laws who adore my dd and I can't imagine taking that experience away from each of them. So what... grandma gave the child a cookie!!! Oh well... grandma let the child play in the dirt while planting the garden! Boy oh boy... grandma suggested a new way of doing something and it actually worked better then dil's way! Children are blessings and not leverage!!
Welcome, you said it best....fantastic post, and I'm so glad your here....and do get along well with your inlaws....
wish more like you would be on the internet posting....I think it would certainly help all of us.
One thing I've noticed and I don't mean this in a bad way, however, I have noted that a lot of mother in laws, who don't get along with they're DIL's have had difficult childhoods and lives, and I'm wondering if there is a connection....First, we make darn sure that our children do not grow up like we do and we develop strong bonds with them....and when they marry, everything changes, and we take things DIL's do and say, way to personal when it isn't meant that way....
I'm not suggesting this is true for everyone, I can only speak for myself...
I'm pretty thick skinned, however, I so wanted to love my DIL, immediately, b/c I wanted more children I suppose. I was insecure, going thru a divorce, confused, my confidence level was very low, and I'm thinking I lacked so much confidence at that time, and took way to many things personal....I was strong opinioned, and still am....however, I do know that there is much room for suggestion...I may not like what someone has to say, however, I do think about it and chew on it for a while and will admit my short comings to myself after a while...but it does take time....
I'm just saying, I wonder if our insecurities caused some of us to take things way to personal or analyse to much...instead of ignoring a lot of things that happened....when I look around me and observe other relationships I notice how some things that are said might bother me, while the person I'm observing doesn't think twice about it...that is the difference..they don't take things to heart or so personally.
Also a very strong personality might certainly intimidate a younger women...someone who is confident, and strong in they're own personal institutions....might clash with a young woman....
then, to, there are always relationships in which it just isn't a good fit...which can't be helped....
Very positive. Thanks! :)
Creme,
So delighted to hear about your son! You will certainly have a very lovely Thanksgiving this year!
Butterfly, to quote from you: "Children are blessings, not leverage."
Do I have your permission to embroider that on a pillow for my living room? Xerox 1,000 copies and wallpaper my den? Paint the words on the sides of my car?
Butterly, please write again. And again and again. Your post was just beautiful. It's like throwing water to a woman whose been walking on a dry desert for the past two years. It's so revitalizing to know there are DIL's like you in the world.
Appreciatively,
Kathleen
K
Do you get it? You've been officially adopted!! 8)
((((Creme))))
Butterfly Journey, it's so nice to have you here. I appreciate your sensible approach. My DS & DD love their GF because I allowed them to forge a relationship with him separate from the one I had with him that was fraught with tension and unmet expectations. I'm glad I did so since they've added much to each others lives. With luck DH & I will also have that opportunity with our own GC. DIL and I are both strong personalities (hmmm...Dr. Freud, are you in the house?) DS inherited that trait as well so it should be interesting!
Butterfly Journey
I also welcome you to this wonderful site. Our special place to vent (at least mine) lol. I loved your post. You said the right words. I also had beautiful in-laws (still have, mil is almost 90). I was an excellent dil too when I was raising my kids. I felt so whole, honored and lucky to know my children had so much love from grandparents (both sides). I knew that my children were safe with them, and that grandparents had a place in their heart that noone could filled but them. When my son married....I thought it would be just like what I have lived, and surprise.... I was ignored, judged, and hurt over and over again. Things did change after I decided to step back...thank God..... Probably because she was very tense with my first gc. She relaxed and now it is a different story. Now I am sure dil sees that we only do good to them and their children (now they are expecting the 3rd child). I do try to abide to their rules but they are very reasonable. We (husband and I) are always there to help them in any way....financially and babysitting. thus never intruding or forcing ourselves on them.
I liked what you mentioned about giving our gc a cookie, and getting dirty playing . The only thing I sometimes do against their rules is to give them candy or a piece of chocolate once in a while....they beg for candy and I secretly give them some (very little lol) My dil has caught me but she just smiles....and tells me...aja.... I know dil's mother also gives them some. My ds also gives their children some candy when their mom is not around. Because she wants zero sweets...even if it s Halloween or they go to a Birthday Party.
I do understand dils who keep their children away from bad grandparents. But some good mils were never given the chance and it is very sad. Having loving grandparents is a natural gift that no children should be deprived from (unless it is unhealthy).
Hope to have you around often.
''Love
Nana,
I love your use of the word "gift" as opposed to "right" or "privilege."
Kathleen
Thanks Kathleen. (Happy face lol)
Oh I like that too Nana................and it's very true too.If our children could see it like that,it would be a blessing for all.
Thanks Mominwaiting
Yes our children will see it that way....sooner or later. Sadly we come to appreciate many things in life when we get older. By then, we have missed a lot.
Love
Hi All, I was in awe reading this one...NO Grandparenting is not a privlege that must be won...Where is the competition and whom are we to win over???
Being a Grandparent is being family it is also an honor in my Heart, a circle of Love that Life goes on.
God Help us if this is something new for I do not want to be a part of the race, I am not in competition with anyone, and I do not keep up with the Jones either.
And we have heard on our site of grandmothers that don't fit the picture you hold in your hearts. Vindictive women can become grandmothers by default...and I can understand the concept that they need to earn that title, like we use the phrase "earn respect." They have left a trail of carnage behind them that isn't appropriate for grandchildren. There are two sides to every coin...always IMHO. Sending love...
Quote from: luise.volta on November 28, 2010, 04:47:12 PM
And we have heard on our site of grandmothers that don't fit the picture you hold in your hearts. Vindictive women can become grandmothers by default...and I can understand the concept that they need to earn that title, like we use the phrase "earn respect." They have left a trail of carnage behind them that isn't appropriate for grandchildren. There are two sides to every coin...always IMHO. Sending love...
Luise your statement is very true. This totally applies to my MIL. Thanks for understanding.
This is a very interesting question. As with many philosophical questions, my answer is: it depends. For my parents and my DH's parents I would say "no" it is not privilege (but I also wouldn't consider it a "right" either), maybe "blessing" is a better word? I don't think it is a privilege for my parents and my DH's parents because they are wonderful people who are generally kind and caring (although we all have our moments, right?). On the other hand, I see the parents of some of my friends and think to myself, "Now, if those people were my parents (or DH's) I don't think I would feel the same way." The reasons vary: some have substance abuse problems, some where physically or mentally abusive to their children, some are enablers of their children who have substance abuse problems, some are just flat out mean people, etc. Thankfully, I don't have to worry about any of this. However, if any of these things were problems, I would be much more careful about allowing my parents or DH's parents unfettered access to my kids. That's my opinion--thanks to everyone who has shared theirs--interesting reading.
I agree with you that family relationships are just that, not privileges or gifts. The fact that so many of us have to fight for our natural place as grandparents is a result of the breakdown of the family in general. My 32 y.o. daughter enjoys not speaking to me since she married a new man 4 years ago. I am sure if all of her father's family were to suddenly disappear, she would want a relationship with me. But for now, she doesn't feel that she "needs" me.
Our present culture is indeed lost. The general consensus is that people are to used and material things are to be loved and cherished. Of course, the opposite is the truth.
My daughter has tried to spread her disrespect of me to other family members as well. Some of my teenage grandchildren who have been in touch with my daughter on Facebook join in with her by "threatening" me with comments such as "you're going to be lonely/all alone" if I disagree to even the simplest request. I tell the that I would never have even thought of saying such a thing to my grandparents. It really makes me want to avoid them. They are just plain cruel and seem to enjoy the power and control that they think this give them.
Keep your self respect. This world is full of sociopaths, some of whom are family.
I think of all relationships as a privilege, not just grand parenting. If you don't maintain the relationship, put in the hard work and maintenance, the relationship withers and dies. Nobody has the right to inflict their toxicity on another and expect them to take it indefinitely. The problem arises when one person refuses to see themselves as cause in the matter and refuses to be a part of the solution.
I've said time and time again, perception is reality. If someone perceives they are being abused, that is their reality whether or not you or anyone else agrees.
Yup!
I appreciate everybody's post here....some great discussion. Kathleen, I too love your insights and ideas. Thank you for sharing! Gram
Last night I was watching an old Andy Hardy movie from the late 30's. Judge Hardy confronted a wealthy woman for not caring for her indigent parents, stating, "It's the law you know; you can be forced to support them; besides the law, it's morally right." However you define grandparenting, privilege, gift, or right, I believe it's a basic ethic that children be allowed this deep human connection, and that cutting them off is unnatural and even immoral.
I'm afraid I'm old-fashioned enough to agree with Judge Hardy. I didn't always get along with my mother well at all, and certainly aspects of her were very harsh, but in her old age I made absolutely certain all her needs were cared for, and the same with my MIL. My husband and I were together on this. Didn't particularly like either of them but would not have dreamed of scaring up "abuse" and cutting off. Probably could have done it if we'd gone on the hunt.
And I'm old-fashioned enough to think that parents deserve honor from their adult children in other ways. I don't agree that just because someone says they were "abused," it's a reality. There's too much whining in this society. The Kutoff King in our family was always self-pitying. He never seemed to feel he got enough, despite the fact that he sometimes got more than his brothers. I'm sure if you asked him today, he could scare up "abuse." My oldest son seems to make up for all the wisdom Mr. Kutoff lacks. He says "You don't grow up until you accept your parents as human beings." Of course there is real and horrific abuse. But people who had good childhoods with solid values, good education and attention to all their health and other needs, and loving parents, lack ethics if they go searching around for "abuse." It's a dishonor to children who do suffer from real abuse.
Did I make mistakes as a mother? You betcha. Do I deserve to be cut off from my granddaughter? No, and she doesn't deserve to be cut off from all of us. But it's what she's getting, the little girl born so prematurely she was sick for a year. She will never know one entire side of her family, thanks to the selfishness of her parents. I must have made a mistake spoiling my son for him to act out like this. Perhaps we gave him too much, or perhaps he's just an abusive son. I remember chronic lying, stealing, shooting around corners, constant fear he would get in trouble with the police. I remember much time and money with "therapists," none of whom did much good, and primarily my endless anxiety about his behavior. I wonder if he ever once considered the effect on his family of this behavior. He demanded and got most of the attention away from his brothers from the sheer amount of time in working through his daily behaviors. Yet he's the first to down his parents and brothers today. Much of Kutoff is a mystery, as he was adopted. Perhaps he never felt accepted, and this is his way out, but it is a very destructive way and not analytical at all in terms of what might be best for his daughter. Perhaps he is simply emulating what his biological parents did to him, which is walk out. Are genes a greater determinant of behavior than environment? He never learned this abandonment of adult parents at home. There must be some explanation, because: Nobody in this family drinks, does drugs, hits children, gives out unwanted advice, or hands out anything to my son and DIL except a lot of money they asked for. We educated this boy in some of the best schools in the land, sent him to Europe to study, and gave him strong role models growing up (which he now ignores.) We do not deserve to lose our grandchild/niece.
There are two sides to everything, but unless our son is willing to have a dialogue, which he most certainly is not, this will not be fixed. Once again, he is taking the easy way out.
Yes, we are still angry and have a way to go before fully neutralizing that, but it's beginning to be over. My anger now is increasingly boiled down to a generalized disgust at all people who dishonor others through manipulation of the truth. As for my son, I'm beginning a phase of just wanting to wish him well. That, I'm finding, is true detachment.
I wonder if that movie was accurate and there was a time when it was against the law to abandon indigent parents. We will I believe be judged by a higher authority in the end.
The coldest hearts abandon their parents and keep their children from grandparents at this time of the year. In a loving family, everyone is included.
Kathleen
Wonderful post Kathleen! I totally agree with you. I also agree with the ladies that have "true" toxic issues with the GPs. I don't think one person in this forum would disagree with the logic of keeping anyone away from a child that could cause them "true" harm.
But, I think people's perceptions is the total key. Everyone has a different perception of what "true" harm is. What one would see as harm, someone else would say, "You've got to be kidding?" And vice verse.
I am right there with you Kathleen. I am not a harm to my GD, but her Mother is doing it out of selfishness and revenge. I am a firm believer in Karma, and someday, I truly believe she will pay for what she is doing.
I love this: The coldest hearts abandon their parents and keep their children from grandparents at this time of the year. In a loving family, everyone is included.
I don't think it is a privilege, or a right, or a gift. I am trying to get it in my head now, that my most important relationship is with my daughter. I have to nurture that, always. She's only an infant, but I think about all the changes that are to come over the years, and I know that grandkids may not be an option for me. I wasn't sure my daughter would get here; I'm not sure what's to become of me in the future; and my daughter may decide never to have kids. That all has to be okay with me; those are things I have no choice in. My life won't be shortchanged without grandkids...and as someone who never met her grandmother (she passed when my dad was 14), I can't exactly mourn what I wasn't missing. I am happy as I am, despite not having a connection with my paternal grandmother.
I am going to make it a point that come what may, I need to be happy. I can't control what other people do in my life, and the new little things that my daughter does everyday has shown me that I very soon will have no control over her. The only thing I can gaurantee is that I'll love her. I have no idea what will happen when she has kids. She may decide that she doesn't want or need me involved, I'm aware of that; that problem runs in my family.
I've managed to be close with my grandparents even though they have no relationship with my mother. What I would like from them most of all is to love one another for their own sake; it has nothing to do with me. The relationship between THEM is by far more precious than the relationship they have with me. My grandfather even went to court to seek visiting rights when we were younger. No matter what my mother has done, the fact that he hurt her like this hurt me as well. I didn't see the point of a court case. It didn't make it easy for me to be around him, knowing that if he had his way, he would force contact with me. No one ever TOLD me this was going on, it was obvious...kids just know. I think I would forego a relationship with my GCs before I let that happen to them. I feel that he put us GCs before my mother in doing what he did.
All is well now, I'm an adult and I try to forgive as quickly as I can, so I haven't let his transgression (and yes, that is what I think that was) hamper my relationship with him. I also have seen him do the kinds of things to me that he did to my mother (recently, he deleted my list of jobs that I applied for that were out of town; he also stopped talking to me when I went into the Air National Guard). We were never abused by my mother, she had no substance issues, and now, b/c of his attempt at visitation rights, I think their relationship has reached it's nadir. (Long story short, my mother divorced my father and my grandparents shut her off when she needed their support more than ever; I think I can understand her feeling that I probably shouldn't have been around them at that point).
This is all anecdotal of course, but it did affect me and I am trying to break a cycle. If I happen to have a cross to bare b/c my daughter doesn't want me to have contact with her kids, I am going to consider that somewhere along the line, her and I both made some mistakes in our relationship that need working on. Then, if I'm lucky, I'll worry about the GCs later.
Love your post Kathleen and I agree that parents these days have forgotten about the child. It's all about them and what they want. Its a very sad situation. Our Granddaughter is 8 months old and we haven't seen her since she was 5 months old. It's all about the control issues of DIL. We didn't do anything wrong. We have asked our DS AND her and they have no reason. IF they do...they are not telling us. They just keep the baby away and take the baby to her parents. It really stinks, and we missed out on her 1st Halloween, Thanksgiving, and I'm sure we wont see her for her 1st Christmas or her 1st Birthday in April. It's heartbreaking. As we have told DS, "We can not fix what we don't know" He agreed and said that he would talk to her. That was 2 months ago with no results. Now he is not allowed to come around. We are at the point of not subjecting ourselves to this nonsense any longer. The sadness and wondering has got to come to an end at some point and we feel that time is now.
I disagree. That's a generalization. There are a lot of truly wonderful parents out there right now. We may see trends but everyone doesn't follow them.