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Problem Solving => Daughter in Laws and/or Son in Laws => Topic started by: Shelby on September 27, 2011, 12:58:07 AM

Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 27, 2011, 12:58:07 AM
Wow.  I have been so alone for several years until I found this site and thread.  Keys Girl, you have helped me gain strength. 

My DIL (I know DIL is daughter-in-law, but what is DS and DH?) made it clear when she and son were dating that she wanted little to do with his family.  When he was still in school we took a lovely, expensive family vacation.  They were not even engaged yet, but we included her in the trip - with my husband and I paying all expenses.  She was civil, but very standoffish.  I was surprised, as I would have expected her to be warm and appreciative of this signal of being accepted/welcomed into the family. 

Once mention was made of one of the funny family stories about my son when he was a little boy.  I asked her if she wanted to hear more of the family stories about when he was little.  She said "No."  Not "Sure" or even "No, thank-you".  Just "No."  What kind of girl doesn't want to hear the fun stories about the man she is going to marry? 

I tried to show her affection and make her welcome in the family - little gifts for birthdays - more significant Christmas gifts.  These often went unacknowledged. 

One year they borrowed our newer, more reliable car for a road trip just before Christmas.  They arrived home late on Christmas Eve, and had our other child bring the car home to us.  That was okay - but what got me was that they didn't bother to call or come visit on Christmas, even though we lived less than 5 miles from them.  And even though they had been using our car until the night before.  Wow.  That one hurt.  It hurt so much that my husband and I talked to our son about his attitude - and asked him to go to family counseling with us.  He agreed, and the three of us (husband, son and I)  worked through the issues, and now we have a great relationship with son - but there's still a vacuum where there should be a relationship with the DIL. 

When her car died - really died - we loaned them a car for quite a while - weeks, not just days.  When we loaned it, I explained that I would need to have it back in a few weeks to take the dog to the vet.  I called a couple of days before the vet appointment, left a message for her to return the call.  She never did.  I walked the dog to the vet and back.  Good exercise, and lord knows I could use the exercise - but I was baffled by the lack of return call, since I had previously mentioned the vet trip when they borrowed the car. 

I don't call without a reason.  I probably have not called her more than a half-dozen times in 3 or 4 years.  If she returns the call, it takes several days.  Often calls are not returned at all.  Therefore I usually call or text my son if I need to.  Emphasis on the word "need".  I never call without a reason.   And only when I need to - never just to chat.  Frequency of my calls to son are probably once or twice a month.  I usually let him initiate contact, which he does, and our interaction is very pleasant.  But it is just him.  He comes alone, spends a little time with his father and me, then goes off to do whatever.  She has come with him probably only a couple of times this year.  That's okay.  She's busy, and has been so chilly for 5 years that I don't really miss having her come. 

We have a big, close family, but she simply does not want any part of it.  She is very possessive of my son, so I just chalked it up to her insecurities, and comforted myself that if she came to realize the family was no threat to her, she would relax and want to be part of it.  We have backed off, but she is as standoffish as ever. 

I never show up at their place uninvited - except to drop off gifts.  In 3 years we've been invited over twice.  The only other times I've been was to deliver gifts - once on that Christmas they couldn't bother to call or come by, and on one other occasion that seemed to warrant a gift.  Both times I delivered the gift at the door -  I did not go in, and I did not stay.  Husband waited for me in the car, with the engine running.  Neither my husband or I have ever criticized her to our son, either.  So he is as puzzled as I am.

The biggest kicker was when son's very elderly grandfather was in the hospital for 2 weeks and nearly died.  He happened to be in the same hospital where DIL worked.  Son visited Grand Dad and was very attentive and concerned, but in all that time DIL never expressed any interest in Grand Dad, nor do we believe she ever stopped in to see him before or after her shift. 

Now they have moved to another part of the country.  Husband and other sons are planning a hiking trip to their area next year.  We would never stay WITH them.  Young couples need and deserve their privacy.  So we have already booked the cabin.  There is plenty of room in the cabin for me, too.   So I thought I'd go, and although I would not participate in the arduous hikes by day, I'd see the group for dinner in the evenings, etc. 

Now I'm rethinking.  I'd fly far from home just to have a couple of dinners (our treat, of course) with DIL who has absolutely no interest in me or our family.  Husband and other sons can get along without me - and have a nice stag hiking trip while I stay home. 

Should I go and see my son who now lives hundreds of miles away or should I detach and not make the  trip?  I do have an excellent relationship with my son - but he is completely besotted with DIL.  He compartmentalizes.  He sees his father and me by himself, and is devoted to DIL and conducts that relationship without involvement from us. 

If I go, I'll be intruding into her territory, which I am reluctant to do (remember I only went to their place an average of once a year when they lived in our city) - I won't do the daytime hiking with the guys - so what's the point in my going?

Okay, ladies, I could use some advice.  Keys girl, I'd especially like to hear from you.  Do I go to maintain contact with my son?  Or skip it and just back off completely? 


Title: Re: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Keys Girl on September 27, 2011, 07:13:36 AM
Hi Shelby, DS is "Dear Son" and DH is "Dear Husband" I believe.

I would book myself a nice "spa" day and luxuriate in having someone else take care of me.  I would let the guys do their "man stuff" and wouldn't intrude on her space, it's likely to upset the apple cart and the current relationships that you have with your son might be in jeopardy.  Your son could maintain contact with you, just as well as you can with him.  You've been choosing to do the "heavy lifting" and I suspect that won't change in the future unless you choose to change it.  Run across the country to visit someone who's about as hospitable as Hurricane Irene? naaaaaahhh.

Congratulations on getting some counselling for you and your son and husband, as well as having the patience of a saint and the discipline of an Olympic gold medalist to only see your son and his wife on such few occasions when they lived close to you.

Your husband waited in the car while you dropped off gifts and you weren't invited in?? Shameful.  I knew someone who was part of a large, close knit family and her daughter's spouse was hostile, with a capital "H", and seemed to be very jealous and angry about that.  The spouse did everything he could do tear the close knit family apart, but they were ready for him and closed ranks even further.  Sadly your DIL could be a very insecure young woman who doesn't want to "share" her husband with his family, afraid that there isn't enough love in his heart for everyone.  She won't change unless she decides to change herself and that would take some counselling.

It sounds as if you've done everything you can to welcome her into your family, I wouldn't be in any hurry to do much more for them, it doesn't sound as if it is appreciated or will be reciprocated........ just wondering if they moved across the country at her suggestion.

I think there will always be a vacuum where the DIL should be me, but I would just concentrate on the big, warm family that you already have, your DIL has her husband and that appears to be all that she needs or wants and she wants to keep him from enjoying his big, warm family.  Her loss is far more greater than yours, there's no guarantee that her marriage will endure forever, so one day there may not be a void where the DIL is because there may not be a DIL!
Title: Re: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Doe on September 27, 2011, 07:17:36 AM
Hi Shelby and welcome!


"  I do have an excellent relationship with my son - but he is completely besotted with DIL.  He compartmentalizes.  He sees his father and me by himself, and is devoted to DIL and conducts that relationship without involvement from us. " 

This sounds a lot like my relationship with my son.

How about if you stay home and give the money to your son for a ticket to come visit you whenever he wants to?  Alone?
Title: Re: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 27, 2011, 08:21:12 AM
Doe and Keys Girl - thank you for your responses. 

Doe, yes I like the idea of staying home and giving him the $ to visit home.  However I would be reluctant to suggest that he come alone.  Her parents also live in our region.  I am reluctant to do anything that might  be construed as not friendly.  Not because I really care about what she thinks - (I'm WAY beyond that) - but because I care about what my son thinks, and I don't ever want to do anything that can be used against me.  Think of it as exercising my Miranda rights.  I don't want anything I say or do to be used against me.    I would be concerned that air fare for one would be something she could complain about later.  $$ is not a serious issue for us, and we could well afford to give them air fare for both. 

Keys Girl - I like your idea about the spa day.  I had not considered that I had been doing the heavy lifting.  Actually I gave myself permission to throw in the towel a couple of years ago - a decision the wisdom of which was confirmed by the fact Grand Dad was ignored on what could have been his death bed.  By my retreating, detaching, the monkey was on my son's back to maintain the relationship with his father and me.  Which he did.   And it was lovely, as he would stop by frequently, visit a bit, and be on his way.  Some visits were just 5 or 10 minutes, which was fine.  They were frequent, brief, natural and comfortable.  I miss that now that he is many miles away, but it is what it is.  But I would say that since I threw in the towel, DS is the one who did the heavy lifting.  And I worry that he is in for a lifetime of that - but there is nothing I can do to change that. 

Keys Girl - you are too kind to give me credit for patience in seeing the young couple so infrequently when they lived here.  Frankly, it wasn't a matter of patience.  It was simply not too pleasant to try to establish a relationship with a young woman who made it clear she was completely disinterested.  So I just left.  Didn't go away mad, I just went away. 

Actually when I dropped the gifts off, I was invited in - both times.  I declined, however.  I wasn't about to go in, chit-chat and pretend like nothing had happened when they had completely ignored our side of the family on Christmas day.  And for that my son bears probably more responsibility than she does.  He should have insisted they carve out a little time for us, but did not.  So he bears most of that responsibility, but she certainly bears some.  Anyway - after the counseling he came to grips with his responsibilities towards BOTH his families - and handles things well now. 

The move across the country was wanted by both of them.  He loves the climbing in the mountains - and wants to try another part of the country.  So he wanted it because he was going TO the mountains.  I wonder if she was going TO something or going AWAY from things.  But it doesn't matter why.  It just is. 

Keys Girl - you say her loss is greater than mine.  There I disagree with you.  She has my son.  She is his primary relationship - his life partner.  I am a footnote in the history of his life.  My relationship with her will be nonexistent.  My relationship with him will be affectionate but distant - emails, a few phone calls.  So I feel my loss is the greater of the two, which is why I was considering going on the hiking trip next year - even though I don't hike.  But DS would be hiking with his dad and brothers - Without me, they can have a nice stag trip.  With me, there could be much more forced inclusion with DIL who doesn't want to be there.   

I learned in 9th grade not to bother with people who didn't want you around.  Gee those lessons from high school years do come in handy decades later, don't they?

Thank you ladies, I appreciate your advice, which I believe is 2 in favor of staying home and letting guys go stag, 0 in favor of my going where I'm not wanted.  Thanks!  ;)
Title: Re: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Pen on September 27, 2011, 09:26:44 AM
Shelby, welcome. I do believe you've been WWU-ized already! This is a great site for comfort, wisdom and healing.

I agree with those who say let the men do their thing w/o you; an opportunity to spend time with your DS will present itself later. Your situation sounds very similar to mine - I always had a good relationship w/DS; we share same sense of humor, interests, tastes etc. Now contact is limited since we've not wanted to be overbearing or intrusive so we don't call unless necessary, never drop by, etc. DIL is trying to treat us more politely when we are thrown together thanks to DS standing up for his right to see his FOO, but makes no real effort to accept us as an important part of DS's life; we've never been invited over, for example. Good on you for not criticizing your DIL to your DS..a sure fire way to get cut off, IMO.

There are many wonderful DILs out there who are trying to get along with unbearable MILs, but we didn't luck out that way. I'm afraid you and I have DILs who never intended to bond with their DH's FOO and may have had an agenda from day one to "cut him from the herd" as Luise, our fearless leader, has said. I've learned to walk very carefully and to be grateful for those spontaneous visits/calls w/DS; few and far between but so precious when they happen.
Title: Re: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: forever spring on September 27, 2011, 11:04:31 AM
Hi Shelby, my 2 cents for what it's worth. ;) I wouldn't go either because you are putting yourself in a situation in which you are not in control. You'll be in a strange place and not feeling wanted by one person - to me that sounds like a bad scenario. I so feel for you because I've been there in the past. I've gone to things where I knew it would be difficult just to be near DS and I always came out really disappointed and hurt. Last October I went to a holiday park with the whole family, DS, DIL, FOO, DILs Sister and BF and 2 GK, one of them a baby. It was a total and utter desaster. I've felt really alienated and completely stressed out. My DH wasn't there, so no support at all. Now having experienced this, I can stay away with peace in my heart and enjoy being either around people who do appreciate me or I can enjoy my own company and do things that interest me and give me joy. I have truly let go and it is not a feeling of loss but gain! I have my memories of when DS was a kid and we got on wonderfully. Those memories support me. My relationship with DS could have changed into something different but we could still be close. It has not happen and I have to accept this.
I'm thinking of you.
Keys girl - congratulations to your chapter two, it sounds as if you are on the way to becoming a lot happier and healthier into the bargain. Wishing you luck and thanks for the update.
Title: Re: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 27, 2011, 11:14:27 AM
Thank you Pen and Chelmsford.  It very much feels as if DIL wants to cut him from the herd.  And I have to accept that.  I feel that if I fight for him, it will simply backfire on me.  There are two women who love him.  One made him do his homework and wash behind his ears - the other has sex with him.  If there is a battle  between the two women, can we all agree on which one will win?  It ain't gonna be me!  ;)

I don't doubt his love for me - but I can't be the top priority in his life - and I certainly shouldn't be.  That is the wife's role.  I'm OK with that. 

Pen, the walking on eggshells is not much fun, is it?  I enjoy life more when I can be myself and not always worry about if I say or do the right thing.  When I haven't yet done the right thing and it has been 5 years!  And Chelmsford - I'm with you - it's not fun to go where you're not really welcome.

thanks, all.  I now count the vote as 4 in favor of stag trip with me at home, 0 in favor of me going where I have nothing to do but get in the way.  Thanks.

Title: Re: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: herbalescapes on September 27, 2011, 11:39:21 AM
Shelby, you say your DIL is "civil but standoffish."  What's wrong with that?  Maybe that's just the way she is.  As long as she is civil, I wouldn't complain about her not being more social or warm or involved.  Playing devil's advocate, maybe the woman suffers from severe social anxiety and can't manage anything else.  Maybe she finds you suffocating.  It's not that one of you is right and the other is wrong.  You are just different and different is OK. 

Not returning your car when you had made it clear you needed it was rude and disrespectful, but I would fault your son as well as your DIL.  Maybe your son was supposed to return the call and he dropped the ball. 
Perhaps when granddad was in the hospital DIL was able to check his condition through his medical records or maybe your son kept her up-to-date.  Maybe she did stop in and see him and you don't know about it.  Since son visited granddad and was concerned and attentive I think that's all that really matters. 

You are shocked that she didn't want to hear stories about her husband as a child.  Maybe she is equally shocked that you'd want to share stories.  Again, one way isn't right and the other wrong; it's just different. 

I disagree with Keys assessment that your DIL wants to keep your son from enjoying his big warm family.  You say he visited on his own when they lived close and now he is going on a hiking trip with his dad and brothers.  He's hardly cut off.  You say after you threw in the towel, he took the initiative to stay in contact.  Doesn't sound as if she has isolated him from his family in anyway.  The decision to move away was by both of them. 

I cast my vote that you stay home and enjoy yourself while "the boys" go on their hikes.  You probably wouldn't enjoy yourself and you'd be setting yourself up for more disappointment.  If you have the resources to offer plane tix to your son AND dil to come visit do so.  If you offer for just your son, that could easily cause WW3 to break out.  Couch the offer in such a way that both are included but acknowledge that if only son (or hey, only DIL) wanted to come that would be ok.

Is it possible to arrange a large family gathering near them that isn't the guys off hiking and you left alone with DIL?  Maybe the next year?  That way you could visit with your son and not be isolated with DIL for everything but dinner. 

Good luck.
Title: Re: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 27, 2011, 12:07:31 PM
Herbal - you make some good points, but I'll argue with you on a few.  I have definitely not been suffocating.  I call only when there is a need (and usually to DS cell, not hers) - like to tell them grandfather is in hospital.  Not for trumped up reasons.  Agree that different is OK - but will not accept label of suffocating - since we have helped when asked (borrowing cars) yet stayed out of their business (never just "stop by", etc.)   I vowed I would never use the words "you" and "should" in the same sentence when talking with her - and I haven't. 

Skipping Christmas visit was on son more so than DIL - but not returning car was on her.  She was the one with the dead car, was driving ours, and I called her cell and left message when it was time to take dog to vet.  So that was on her, not son, although if I had left the message for him on his cell - or if they had a landline - then it would be on him, too.   But she had the car,I left the message for her  - car issue is on her. 

Agree any offer of plane tix is for the both of them - I think I acknowledged that earlier.  But I do agree with Keys that she'd like to cut him from the herd.  She will not be able to do so completely - because he does love us.  But his life is with her. 

Thanks for the advice - I now count 5 to stay home, 0 to go.  Wouldn't most politicians love a landslide like this?   :)
Title: Re: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 27, 2011, 12:13:15 PM
Herbal - also on hospital visit - we inquired of DS if DIL had checked in on Grand Dad.  Got no for an answer.  I would not criticize her for lack of interest unless I was positive that none had been expressed.  We said nothing to DS about her indifference.  It wouldn't have changed the situation.  But we bite our tongues a lot.  No comments about lack of Christmas visit, lack of thank-yous for gifts, or lack of interest in deathly ill relative.  She is different.  I may not be right, but I am right for me.  She is entitled to be her own person - but I take inspiration from Keys posts - that I don't have to cater to her, coddle her, beg to be around her, etc.  I have wonderful family, friends who enjoy me - and my time and energies are better spent there. 

I will continue to do as Keys does - enjoy my own life - and not worry about walking on eggshells.  And if my son is happy - then that is all that counts.
Thanks
Title: Re: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 27, 2011, 02:20:15 PM
Welcome Shelby :)

I think as herbal said that it's just differences.  I know you've said you never stop in but you said previously that you did with gifts a couple of times.  As a DIL that would bother me *more* than just a random stop in, I would take it as a p/a swipe that we didn't come on Xmas Day and I think there is something to it b/c you do seem upset they didn't come on Xmas, especially after you just helped them.  I think also that some people would find asking if someone came to see someone at the hospital to be a little over the top -- I know I wouldn't understand why my MIL would ask that.

Your DS doesn't seem like he has cut you guys off at all and I don't really see any evidence that your DIL has pulled him away.  I do see you giving a lot of yourself and help but also expecting something back which I think most expectations are going to lead to disappointment but even moreso when you attach the act of helping/giving to your expectations as if you're owed.

I hope you don't take what I said as harsh, it's just my take as a DIL. 
Title: Re: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 27, 2011, 03:20:23 PM
Pam - i said the only two times I stopped in were to deliver gifts - Christmas and another event - and that on both occasions I simply delivered and did not go in.  So I do not count that as a visit - I spent no time there.  Did not cross the threshold. 

I agree that I was hurt to not hear from them on Christmas - and made clear on this forum that son is more responsible for that than DIL, although they both bear responsibility.  What is a "p/a swipe"?  i have no clue - but if you mean did she feel embarrassed that I delivered a gift on Christmas when they didn't even bother to call, then I say let her be embarrassed.  I would not let Christmas go by without acknowledging all my loved ones, and don't feel I should have to apologize for dropping a gift off and leaving.    I also shouldn't have to refrain from delivering a gift to my son's house simply because it might make her realize how thoughtless they had been.  Her embarrassment and lack of consideration are her responsibility, not mine. 

I also disagree that inquiring if someone came to visit at the hospital is "over the top".  Remember, DIL works at the hospital.  She did not have to make a special effort to visit - only maybe take an elevator and walk down the hall to say hello to the Grand Dad. 

DS has not cut us off.  He is a fine young man and we have a great relationship with him.  He also loves his wife, and we respect that.  But he must compartmentalize the relationships, which is fine. 

I think it is unfair for you to say we have "expectations as if you're owed."  To be treated with respect and cordiality by someone who has asked and received favors does not seem to me to be too much to expect, (but then I'm old fashioned) - and I would hardly call that a feeling of "being OWED".  But I do agree with you fully that to have any expectation would lead to disappointment - which is why, like Keys Girl, I am giving myself permission to do what is fulfilling to me, and not to feel obligated to carry on some charade of a relationship.   

So, Pam, I assume your vote is that I get to stay home and let the guys go stag?  I think it's now up to 6 I stay home, 0 for me to make the trip.  Yippee.  Spa day, here I come  ;)
Title: Re: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 27, 2011, 03:30:35 PM
Shelby, I see what you're saying but I think otherwise and maybe your DIL does too.  Whether you went in or not is showing up uninvited in my books.  In any case, I think there is going to be so many different points of view but probably the only important one is how your DIL views these events.  Not that your point of view isn't important, its just that I think if you want something to be better or a different way (as in your relationship with your DIL) the way she feels about these things are going to be pretty important.  I don't think it hurts to explore some of our own actions that may have lead to our own disappointments.

As far as going or not going, I don't have an opinion, I think it is up to you.  If you want to go, I don't see why you shouldn't.  I would *love* some days to myself in a cabin in the woods lol.  I could read or hike on my own, which just sounds heavenly to me right now.  But I think your reasons for going would be different.  I do think though that going or not, it is fully your decision and it really doesn't have much to do with DIL. 
Title: Re: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 27, 2011, 03:33:25 PM
Shelby, I've edited your post to remove the all caps, which is considered internet yelling here.

I'm also going to split this thread out of Keys Girl's topic b/c it deserves its own. 

Also, I didn't see that you weren't welcomed before by a moderator, sorry about that.  Please read the Forum Agreement and WWU History in the category Open Me First, we ask all new members to do so.  Thanks
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 27, 2011, 04:02:36 PM
Shelby wrote :"Wow.  So dropping off a gift at the door is intrusive?  I guess I learn something every day.  At least I only did it twice in about four years.  And now it would be impossible to do, since they are waaaaaaay across the country.

I recently had surgery, and numerous friends and family members dropped off flowers, casseroles, baked goods when I got home from the hospital.  Some stayed a few minutes and chatted.  Others delivered their offerings at the door along with well wishes, and went on their way.  I did not feel that any of those gestures was intrusive.  But perhaps my perspective is skewed on that.

Pam is a Global Moderator -- I am simply a newbie - but I would be interested in others opinions - if dropping off a gift is intrusive, even if one does not stay - just drops and runs.  Ladies?" 

Shelby, I tried moving your last post in Keys thread but it did not work so I manually copied and pasted.  Please use this thread.

I'm simply a person with an opinion which is different than yours, I don't think the situation is as simple.  It was Xmas Day with uninvited visit, to me the gifts or no gifts wouldn't matter.  It was the statement, the gifts could have waited.  And they just got back from a day of travel, so yeah -- me personally, wouldn't like it.

I'm sensing hostility on your part towards those with just a different opinion.  IMO, this isn't a who's right or wrong contest, your DIL's opinion is going to be the most important regardless of what the vote is here.  If you want the relationship to be different I think you're going to have to figure out a way to determine her opinions and boundaries that make *her* comfortable.



Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 27, 2011, 04:14:01 PM
Pam, no hostility, just bewilderment.  I have a wonderful MIL and an easy, comfortable relationship with her.  I think you're pretty quick to find fault with my gift delivery - but that's certainly a new perspective I'll give much thought to, and hearing your perspective as a DIL will help me avoid that type of mistake again.  Thanks
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Doe on September 27, 2011, 04:32:05 PM
Interesting direction this is taking!

Shelby, when I read your post, it sounded a lot of like the situation with my son.  And I get what you are saying about DIL wanting to separate DS from the herd.  My DIL is a very independent woman who does not have a strong basic FOO.  When she came into my son's life, I watched him drop his close long term friends one by one at her urging.   DS was very loyal to his friends before, aware of their failings but still accepting.  She decided that they were going to move soon after they married and have a baby 1000 miles away from his FOO.  Ok, that's their decision.  I'm actually more comfortable with the distance between us and them as a couple.

And I get what you are saying re: doing things for DIL that you would do for family and friends and expecting normal decent behavior in return.   I'm guilty of that expectation, too!  (No more, though - I don't expect anything decent from DIL now.)

My DIL was pretty overt in her arrogance toward DH and me so when I decided I wasn't going to cater to her anymore, it was an obvious decision.    There was a final incident that I never mentioned it to my son and he hasn't mentioned it to me. We are just enjoying each other texting and email and occasional calls as we used to.  "Compartmentalizing" describes it beautifully.  I know he has a lot on his hands and I don't add any grief to his life.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 27, 2011, 04:39:22 PM
Doe - that is what I will endeavor to do - not add any grief to his life.  He is a wonderful young man - and I don't want him to feel caught in the middle - so I simply refuse to play tug-of-war.  With zero resistance from me, there can be no conflict.  At least that is my hope. 

You say your son and DIL moved away and had a baby.  How does that impact your relationship?  I suspect many might think a baby would bring all closer, but I expect the opposite would be the case.  My theory is that if I'm considered superfluous to my son's life, I'd be considered even less relevant to a grandchild's life.  What is your experience?
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: tryingmybest on September 27, 2011, 04:42:52 PM
Expectations are the killer. What I'm finding as a MIL is a constant need to make sure I don't offend, while my DIL  feels perfectly comfortable being I don't know not exactly rude, but not feeling the need to put herself out with any of the social niceties. Some people just don't have the ability to do that, or they don't feel the need to.
but I'm big on calling, I would have called first. I hate people showing up unannounced at my door.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Doe on September 27, 2011, 05:00:29 PM
Well, the GB is fairly new. 

I think the DIL had some sort of cartoon image of how it would all be.  While pregnant, they asked me to move out there for 3-4 months to help with childcare after the baby was born.  That was a little over the top so I agreed to one month in the fall after our busy season settled down with our business.  As it turns out, 1 week of my being there when GB was newly born was more than she could take.  It did not end well.

I reached out to make amends and during that conversation, she said that she couldn't control what I thought of her so she wasn't even going to try.   Things were pretty good for a while and I was flooded with photos and videos which was fun.  Then she got mad about something and told me to leave her alone, don't talk to her and go find something else to do with my time.  Then I had to walk the "Unfriended from Facebook" walk of shame  (read: who cares?)

So in answer to your question, who knows?  I recognize that I won't have a good relationship with GB unless I bow to DIL but it's just not worth it to me at this point.  I wasn't going to see this GB much unless I went there and I don't want all my travel time to be eaten up chasing a GB whose mom doesn't care for me. 

But who knows what the future will bring?
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Ruth on September 27, 2011, 05:33:15 PM
Its sad this has to be so complicated Shelby.  I did wonder how long have ds and dil been married?  I'm on this forum because of estrangement from my ds, but I also have a double whammy as my MIL and I are largely estranged.  I can't imagine her taking part in this forum.  I am also both a MIL and a DIL.

I married into a small but close family.  My MIL thinks her ds (my dh) hung the moon.  He was her only son, and he grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth.  He is very kind hearted and married late in life.  However, he also somewhat failed to launch as his very close relationship to his dm made serious problems in our marriage, which eventually erupted and brought on this awful estrangement.  I won't bore everyone with that story again.

I know this is a volatile subject for you.  We all hate hanging out our dirty laundry here, but we're all courageous enough to want to plow through these issues.  I commend you for having the courage to come here and open yourself up to input.  I love these women here though.  They have helped me regain my life, and each of their personalities is precious to me.  Their insights are very helpful and I hope you will gather them all up, take a while to digest,  and see what stays down.  !   

Now what could be done to improve this situation?  It could be reparable or as in my case, not.   But if its still in the early stages, I'd suggest you contact your dil and ask her to meet someplace neutral with you, that you have  something on your heart that you must talk with her about.  Then try and just be honest with her, and ask her to share her viewpoints with you.   Open your heart, and just be a woman with her, not her husband's mother. 

You have enjoyed a wonderful life it seems.  Your dil might be a stranger to you.  It would help to ask her if you two could begin again, and get to know each other apart from ds being involved.  She might respond positively, but if she did not, I'd thank her for meeting with me, and hope that the future could bring change.  But this type of conversation has to come from a heart that is able and willing to be honest and vulnerable.  If it comes with a shadow of scolding or entitlement, the wall will go up and the door will be closed.  There is too much to gain and too much to lose to not be willing to try a new approach.

I believe appearing with gifts was covertly scolding, I would have been angry at mil.  Why were arrangements not made in advance for Christmas dinner and the family time?  I didn't understand this.  But I would think that you have to let the past be history and start over with a clean slate.  There are a million reasons why your dil could be behaving this way, but you'll never know unless you are able to get to know your dil as a person.   

I truly hope this can be turned around for your family.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Doe on September 27, 2011, 06:03:11 PM
fwiw, I think the gift delivery was a minor issue.    I don't get that there was a hidden message on Shelby's part but the problem is the deeper waters between the 2 women.

Not sure if I mentioned this before:  my son forgot my last birthday.  I sent him a belated birthday card saying how sorry I was the he missed my birthday, that it was a wonderful time!   Some here may take that as passive/aggressive, but he got a good laugh out of it and and took it in the spirit I intended which was a loving nudge to remember my birthday!     If we didn't get along in the first place, sending that card would have been a terrible Flunk on my part.

My point is that I think the gift delivery issue is only a symptom of the bigger problem and not a bad thing in and of itself.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: herbalescapes on September 27, 2011, 07:35:39 PM
I'm going to disagree with Ruth and suggest no further action be taken.  It doesn't seem that there's a real problem.  Geography dictates that in-person contact will be limited.  Son seems okay with compartmentalizing his relationships so why should anyone else be bothered?  It's nice that Shelby wants a closer relationship with her DIL and would like to be friends, but her DIL obviously doesn't.  I think trying to fix things would have a high risk of making things worse. I don't imagine my following scenarios are at all accurate, but I want to offer up the possibility that DIL has some info Shelby is lacking. 

Case 1
Shelby: I was happy to lend you my car, but I was disappointed and hurt that you didn't return it when I left you a clear message that I needed it to go to the vet.
DIL:  I got your message.  I talked to your son and we agreed he'd return the car to you so he could fit in a quick visit when he returned it.  Believe me, I gave him whatfor when he got home that night still with your car.  You mean he didn't call and apologize???  I told him he needed to call you ASAP.  I am sooooo sorry.  I really thought he talked to you about this.  Do you mean you've been upset about this all this time?

Case 2:
Shelby: We felt a little hurt that you never visited Granddad when he was in the hospital.  We asked DS if you had stopped by, but he said no.
DIL: He said no because he didn't know I stopped by.  I checked on Granddad twice a day every day he was there. He was always sleeping.  I didn't want to visit during normal visiting hours because I knew the family would always have someone there and those rooms aren't exactly large.  Granddad needed his rest and too many visitors can be stressful and delay recovery.  Also, I made sure all his test results were double-checked.  I reviewed his bill and found 17 errors and corrected them before you got the bill, saving you thousands of dollars. 

Does DIL think there's a problem in the relationship?  (this is rhetorical.)  If she doesn't think there is a problem, bringing up issues can create a bigger problem than the ones you think you have. 

It seems Shelby is ok if not thrilled with the situation and she's going to have a nice staycation while the boys are off being manly men. 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 27, 2011, 07:41:10 PM
Dear Trying - thanks for the feedback on gift delivery without calling first.  Have learned my lesson!  :)    You are right about expectations being a killer.  That is why I am letting go of all my expectations.  With no expectations, there can be no disappointment, which is a blessing.  Best wishes to you regarding DIL who does not wish to connect with your family.

Doe - Bowing to DIL who doesn't care for you and chasing an exhausting toddler wouldn't be my cup of tea, either.  You DIL was expecting you to come be nanny for 3-4 months?  Wow.  Sounds like a princess.  I think you were an angel to agree to one month.  Care to share why it only lasted a week?

Ruth - many responses to your thoughtful comments.  Asking DIL to meet and have heart-to heart talk would, I feel, be perceived as extremely intrusive.  General, normal friendliness has been met with the cold shoulder, so I really don't think such a conversation would be received as anything but criticism and a boundary violation.  Gosh, lots of women here think delivering a gift is intrusive, and I feel that such a conversation would be far more of a boundary violation than that. 

As to why arrangements were not made in advance as to Christmas dinner, we did invite them to a noon Christmas dinner with our family, but they were spending that time with DIL's FOO.

Doe - thanks for the support that delivering a gift is a minor issue - but we may be in the minority.  If I knew where you and Keys lived, I could feel secure delivering gifts to you!  ;)  Glad your son took the card in the right way.  Thank you for comment that gift is only symptom of bigger problem - not bad in itself.  I couldn't agree more.   

Many of these issues are resolved since they are now far away -- Gift delivery is impossible - not that I'd ever dare try that again!  :)  Also borrowing cars won't happen -

DS does a good job maintaining relationships with his family - I am grateful for that. 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 27, 2011, 08:00:23 PM
My take on it is there is not an issue with gifts being delivered -- provided that DS/DIL agreed to you coming over to their home.  And to be honest, I don't even like when people ask to come over, I'd prefer they would wait on the invite.  I don't think it is a gift issue at all other than the gift was the excuse to pop over, that is how I would take it. 

And really, this is just our opinions on it, your DIL could have been perfectly fine with it.  Which brings up another question -- how long ago did all this happen?  I'm typically a big advocate of communicating and talking it out, but I'm wondering why it wasn't brought up when these situations happened.  I think if it's been more than a year it's probably something most people would consider in the past and wonder why it was held onto for so long. 

And I know, my MIL made a stink at our wedding and I'm still having a hard time letting it go.  I just can't think of how bringing it up now will help anything, it was a long time ago.  I realized my mistake in not speaking up in the moment after that.


Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 27, 2011, 08:10:25 PM
In my next life, I think I'll have Doe for a DIL, not anyone who is offended at a gift delivery.  Pam, your post seems to indicate that you would expect anyone to call to ask permission to deliver a gift.  I would call and ask permission to come visit - and spend time - but I don't do that as I do not invite myself anywhere.  I wait on the invitation.  I did a 5 second drop at the door - staying no longer than you postal carrier would to deliver a package.  I think that is fairly typical Christmas behavior.  At least it is for our friends who deliver cookies, poinsettias, etc. to us during the holidays.  And I have yet to be offended at that.  I think anyone who is so offended at MIL passing gift over transom while her husband waits in car with engine running is looking for something to complain about.  But problem solved - won't/can't happen again! :)
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Nana on September 28, 2011, 03:37:46 AM
Shelby" I wouldnt take offense if in-laws came home to drop a present.  I am not that private.  I would defenitely not try to talk things over with dil, because she had made it loud and clear she does not care, in fact, she does not want you around.   We sense when people are just introvert and different and when they just dont care being nice.
When you took her on the family trip, she could have been reserved but nice.  People might not love me, I agree, but I do expect gratitude. For me, gratitude is not optional -- it is a must.  As Doe said "Decent Behavior". 

My mil still lives (she is 90).  I always had a good relationship with her.  She would always tell me (and still does) stories of when my husband was a child (her son) .  I would have never dare to stop her .  And believe me she still tells me the same stories over and over again.....Now, I just smile.  She enjoys it, so why should this bother me if I have the time to listen?  But this is only me, I understand that being different is ok....liking or disliking comes with every individual.   My dil is now nice to me......but she wasnt for some couple of years...... As I have repeated, I cut myself off...and then things changed for the better.  Some mils are terrible, they have earned what they have....but really there are some out there (you are one of them) that are cut-off just because... without standing a chance.

Shelby...Stay home...that is my vote.  Why go and feel restless.....home is peaceful and safe lol.
I love when I come back home ..sweet home.

I wish you the best from the buttom of my heart.

Loved this discussion....all points of views are appreciated.

Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Barbie on September 28, 2011, 06:06:28 AM
Shelby,

I think delivering gifts at Christmastime is a very kind and thoughtful gesture, we've done it too to some of our neighbors. When you don't have a good relationship with your DIL she will probably find fault in anything that you do. I'm also guilty of telling DIL stories about DS when he was little, at first she didn't seem to mind, or so I thought, but before long I realized she didn't like it or the fact that I've always put DS on a pedestal, he was my prince, guess she thought he was a mamas boy because he had me on a pedestal as well, but that's not so, those who are good sons make wonderful husbands and fathers and he is both plus he's extremely responsible and protective of his family, just like I taught him.

I understand the hurt that you felt when your father was in the hospital and DIL didn't  inquire about him, my father died and DIL didn't come to his funeral,  my DF was always very nice to her and while everyone had their spouses with them my DS showed up alone, she should have been there at least to support her husband.

I thought having a grandchild would change our relationship for the better, that DIL would understand what it's like being a parent, I was wrong again. So you see, we just need to learn to live without our DS and concentrate on us and what makes us happy, it is possible to have a happy life again, once you get used to pampering yourself it makes it easier to stop longing for what you have no control of.

Hugs.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Doe on September 28, 2011, 06:44:25 AM
LOL - Shelby, you can see we have a lot of spirited opinions on this forum!  Heck, we all have a lot of good advice to give and our children don't want it - it's got to be released somewhere!

Morphing this into a discussion on unannounced drop-ins - I wonder if the women who are annoyed with ILs dropping in with gifts are also annoyed with anyone dropping in with gifts?  If friends or neighbors dropped by with a gift would it cause a rift in the relationship?
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 06:49:19 AM
Nana and Barbie, thank you for your thoughtful posts.  It is nice to know there are some who would not take offense at a gift being delivered.  However, this forum has been most enlightening in that I have learned that there are quite a few out there who would resent a gift delivery if the giver had not telephoned first to make sure it was OK to drop off the gift.  Not come and visit and stay awhile - that clearly requires scheduling/invitation - But just a 5 second delivery should be cleared in advance.  So I have learned something new and useful.  Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks? ;)

Barbie - I am sorry you have had to learn to live without you DS.  Any chance he could learn to compartmentalize and have a relationship with you separate from the one with his wife?  Especially if you learn, as I am trying, to respect the DIL boundaries - even if those boundaries seem unreasonable?  (to you, not to her) 

Example - I don't have to agree with people who think a gift drop-off that does not involve staying or even turning off the ignition is invasive.  However, I have to realize that some people out there do have such an opinion, and I must accept and respect their opinions and boundaries.  Therefore in the future I will not do a drop-off at those people's houses out of respect for what I may consider to be insecurity, unfriendliness or just downright silliness - but what they consider to be reasonable. 

I do think that my learning where DIL boundaries are helps maintain my relationship with DS - it may never foster relationship with DIL but that's not my goal.   My goal is to remove any possible conflict with DIL, and reduce chance of DS feeling caught in middle - thus giving my relationship with DS more strength.  Not more contact, necessarily - but just stronger foundation for the long run.  At least that's my theory and hope.

Barbie - sorry your heart aches regarding the GC and lack of relationship there.  That one I'm prepared for.  When a GC comes, I expect to be even more peripheral than I am now.  Your DIL may be insecure - and there's probably nothing you can do about that except back off.  Best wishes -

And thanks to everyone for all the wisdom.
 





Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 28, 2011, 06:52:44 AM
Doe, yes....I don't like anyone dropping in, gifts or not.  My own parents included.  Heck, my parents would be upset if I came over without calling first. 

I hardly think it is unusual, many people don't like the drop in.  And since I don't like it, I don't do it to others either.  It wouldn't ever occur to me to pop over at someones house unannounced.

And yes, the UPS man bothers me too.  Quit ringing the doorbell, I'm doing something.  I guess the difference is that I expect a family member or friend to recognize my boundary and as it is very reasonable, not test it.  The UPS man has to do his job and frankly, I doubt he is doing it to make a point and doesn't want conversation so its a bit easier to just sign and say thanks lol.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 06:57:57 AM
Doe - agree on the spirited opinions.  And while I appreciate the supportive opinions that a gift drop-off by MIL is not a cardinal sin - I actually learn more from the other opinions. 

They educate me as to how something I might do with best of intentions could be interpreted otherwise.  Knowing that my DIL is not the only one out there with such feelings will help me navigate the  minefield in the future (and save $$$ on gifts at the same time!)  ;)

I like your question on whether those who resent ILs dropping off gifts would also resent friend, neighbor, co-worker dropping off gift.  That is an interesting question and I would love to hear from those who would want ILs to schedule drop-off how they feel about drop-off from other friends. 

Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Doe on September 28, 2011, 07:00:53 AM
 :D

Our office is in our home and our employees used to come by here to start and end their day so we had people coming in and out a lot.  Also, we homeschooled for many years so other families came over a lot.

Since the boys left home and we moved some of our operations down the street, not as many people come by so when someone drops in my only concern is "Am I dressed?" :P

And Shelby, at this rate you won't be a newbie for long! 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 07:04:19 AM
Wow - already an interesting response from Pam.  Interesting that her parents would be upset if she came over without calling first.  Although I have learned not to drop-off at DS and DIL's house if ever they should move back to town - what is interesting is that in all this time DS and DIL have dropped in on me and my DH without advance notice.  And we have not resented it. 

DS often dropped in  by himself.  DIL never did by herself - but occasionally he would bring her with him.  One night I was about to leave for the gym and they dropped in.  I stayed, chatted, we had a nice visit and they left.  I never mentioned I was on my way to gym - nor did I resent missing the workout - I can do that later - but I think there may be double standard -  it's OK for some adult children to drop in on their parents, but it is never OK for those parents to drop in on the adult children. 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Scoop on September 28, 2011, 07:06:01 AM
I feel I have to weigh in here.

Because I would not feel comfortable visiting my DH's grandparent in the hospital.  I know that when I'm sick, I don't want visitors.  Putting myself in GFIL's shoes, I certainly wouldn't want the opposite-gender, spouse of my grandkid visiting me, alone.  Maybe this is how your DIL was thinking about it?

Or else, maybe she's not good with old people?  Or maybe, when she's at work, she's *at work* and tries to stay focused?  Or maybe when she's done her work, she doesn't want to spend any more time AT her work?  Maybe it was a combination of all of the above.

The gift drop off.  I would have to say that I resent ANYONE ringing my doorbell when I'm not expecting company.  I've had to suck it up a bit, because DD often has little friends who want her to come and play.  But, if I had just returned from a long road trip, and had just finished (or was in the middle of) my Christmas morning celebration AND I still had to get ready (soon!) for lunch with my family, then yes, it would be intrusive to have to answer the door.  Even if it was for gifts.

And even then, I would be flabbergasted that you didn't wait for us to be able to get together to exchange gifts.  To me the message would be that it's ONLY the DAY of Christmas that is important and not to bother with any other day for a get-together.  And I would wonder why you didn't want to see us open our gifts?

I'm also the type to take one thing at a time, so I would have gotten through my road trip, then my Christmas day, and then whew, now, we can take a breather and see when works to visit the IL's.  An unexpected gift drop off visit would have made me hesitate, because I wouldn't understand it.

I'm not trying to defend ALL of the DIL's behaviour here, I'm just trying to show an alternative way of thinking about it.

I'd also like to point out something my DH and I worked out between us.  It comes from one of those cheezy internet memes about "What Men Wish Women Knew" and one of them was:

"If I say something, and it can be taken two ways, and one of those ways makes you cry, I meant the other way."

It really is a good way to consider people in general.  If she's never really done anything truly hateful to you before, it would help your relationship with her if you decided to take anything she does "the other way".

As for the cabin, were you invited?  If so, then go and bring something to amuse yourself.  If not, then make alternate plans and have some fun yourself.

Good luck.

----
New information was posted as I was writing this:

Yes, I resent ANYONE dropping in.  I resent salespeople, I resent missionaries, I resent DD's friends,  I resent the one friend I have who DOES drop in.  I have even turned her away when her timing was particularly bad.  The ONLY people who are allowed to ring my doorbell unexpectedly with impunity are Girl Guides selling cookies.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: lancaster lady on September 28, 2011, 07:21:11 AM
Hi Shelby and Welcome ....
My vote ....stay at home , and do all the things you want to do but can't because .............!
The thing I would like to ask you is , what does your son think about his partners behaviour towards his family ?
He seems to have accepted the fact that you two will never get along and is quite ok with that .
I sense that you are disappointed that she rejected you and your family , although you were willing to
treat her as part of it .
It would be easier to accept perhaps if you knew why , but then on this forum , we stop asking that question
of family members with unusual behaviour.
Perhaps it will always be this way for you and your DIL , mine was with my MIL , no matter what I did we never gelled .
Never bothered me , just one of those things .
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 07:26:10 AM
Doe - as far as "Am I dressed?"  I bet the plumber and painters have seen me in my big fuzzy bathrobe as often as in my street clothes. 

Scoop - you have good message in looking on bright side/giving benefit of doubt.  However ---

"Maybe she's not good with old people" - then perhaps she shouldn't be a nurse?  Especially in hospital where lots of old people die? 

She didn't have to visit alone - she could have gone with DS, said hello, then stepped out in hallway while DS visited his GF.  She could have checked his status with nurses and reported to us.  She could have sent a card to him - taken him a daisy (after all, this is the GF who paid for the flowers for her wedding to DS).  She could have asked us how he was doing.  She could have done something to show a little bit of caring.

You are flabbergasted we didn't wait for them to be able to get together to exchange gifts --  We didn't do the drop-off Christmas morning - (jumping the gun).  We had invited them for Christmas noon meal.  It turns out they went to her FOO for Christmas morning and mid-day meal, but they never even let us know they would not come to our meal.  Of course that was rude to never let us know, but we just let it go -    We waited and waited, and finally did the drop-off at 8:30 p.m. when it was clear they were going to make no effort to contact us that day.  Certainly it was hurtful to be ignored on Christmas, but if we hadn't dropped off the gifts on Christmas  I might have been tempted to return them to the store the next day  ;)

The following Christmas, DS did come by the house.  We gave him his gifts, and also gave him our gifts for DIL for him to take to her.   I simply assume she received them, as she has never acknowledged those gifts.  So as many MILs, I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't - the drop-off one year was not appropriate (and I'm duly chastised  ;)) -- the delivery via DS (avoiding and unannounced drop-off) netted zero reaction from DIL.  Golly, I think I just saved myself some $$$ on this year's Christmas list! :)

I agree in giving benefit of doubt - but one still has to look at "the body of work".  Any one event can easily be explained away.   I did that for years.  But finally, when time after time there is snub after snub, it is simply time to cut your losses, retreat, go another direction and spend one's energies in a manner in which they are appreciated. 

I'm not mad at DIL - I simply have learned to steer clear and focus on my relationship with DS - and
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 28, 2011, 07:32:37 AM
Scoop, we have a signal for DDs friends that lets them know it's alright to come over -- one blind up.  They are all pretty good with recognizing the signal. 

Most floor nurses I know are on very strict schedules, their breaks and lunch are highly regulated since they have to meet state requirements with how many nurses per floor/unite.  They can't just leave the floor or their unit on a whim.  It's possible that she did try to visit on one of her breaks and he was sleeping and since her time is so regulated, she really wouldn't have very many chances to keep coming back.  But even so, I don't understand why anyone else would get involved -- it is her relationship with her grandfather in law, if neither of them are upset -- it doesn't make sense in my mind to make it an issue. 

Lol, I really don't think it's that interesting, I know a lot of people who don't appreciated the drop in.  Shelby, you don't know of anyone who doesn't like it? 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 07:36:34 AM
Lancaster - you ask what does DS think about his wife's behavior towards his family?  We don't know.  We have never asked.  Nor have we ever commented to him on his behavior.  As far as some of the shabby treatment we received from them as a couple - we discussed *his* role in that (never hers), asked him to go to a counselor with us, and he did.  After a few sessions he realized he had been holding on to old high school resentments over things like curfews and our refusal to allow him to go to underage drinking parties.  Through counseling, he came to realize that ten years after high school it was time to let go of all those old resentments and start acting like an adult - which he now does. 

I feel it was productive to have a conversation and address those matters with him - as there is a solid foundation of love in our relationship with DS - but feel, as I suspect many other posters would, that to try to discuss these matters with DIL would simply backfire.  So I cannot explore *why* DIL is so disinterested.  I think it is simply my job to accept it, learn her boundaries (even if I disagree with them), and move on.  The only thing I really care about (and it is all I should care about) is our relationship with DS.  I can't change her - only my reaction to her. 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 07:43:06 AM
Scoop - you asked if I was invited to the cabin.  My DH and I have rented the cabin.  It does not belong to DS and DIL.  It is a cabin in a vacation area where we have vacationed before - that is how DS was familiar with the area when he wanted to move somewhere he could hike all the time.  Now do I have to be invited to rent a vacation cabin from a real estate company just because it is within 20 miles of DS new home?  Cabin is for my husband and other sons to stay in during hiking trip.  DS and DIL will live in their own house, and DS can drive over to hike with the guys.  DIL can join group for dinner if she wishes.  Whatever.  But I wanted to clarify that we were not staying in cabin belonging to DS and DIL - or even just down the street.  Same general area, but 10 miles away. 

Pam1 - I don't mind a drop-off.  If someone wants to stay and talk and make a social event of it, yes I prefer that be scheduled as I,like many others, work from home.  Again, I have learned the most from posters with different thresholds of tolerance than I have.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 28, 2011, 07:56:30 AM
Shelby, I meant do you not know of anyone else who doesn't like the drop off?  Friends or neighbors?  Just curious.  I work from home too and still can't stand it, I eventually leased a small office to meet clients at.  It also doesn't help that the doorbell sets the pack off (my pups lol.)

I don't know if I missed it, I apologize if I did, but how long have they been married?  And I take it the counseling sessions with DS happened fairly quick after the marriage?
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 08:14:10 AM
Married 3 years.  Counseling with DS were after they had been married a year and a half.  Counseling was not related to his marriage - more related to him giving up on old high school resentments. 

I too am an animal person - and yes it is frustrating when I am in the middle of business and the dogbell rings  - but that is just the price I pay for working at home and having animals.  Once my doorbell was broken, and I didn't know it for years, because the dog always barked when someone came to the door, drowning out the sound of the doorbell.  We didn't find out the doorbell was broken until after the dog died.  We now have another dog, and we refer to her as our dogbell. 

You ask if I know anyone else who doesn't like drop-offs.  I'm sure I do, I just don't know who they are as the subject hasn't come up.  I'm sure I also know lots of people who have tension with their DILs - but again I wouldn't necessarily know who they are, as I don't ask those kinds of questions of my flesh and blood friends.  Topic doesn't come up in polite society. 

I have, with the blessing of anonymity, shared thoughts/feelings here I would never share with my mother, sister, DS, friends, neighbors, etc.  I have to live with those people.  This much candor could destroy too many relationships in real life - but the candor is most helpful in sorting through emotions and relationship issues.  But I honestly cannot tell you which of my friends/neighbors has drop-off concerns or DIL issues, etc. 

Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 28, 2011, 08:28:07 AM
Shelby, thanks for clarifying.

That's an interesting take on relationships, I was brought up speaking directly.  I think my father had a lot of influence on us kids, our mother was quite often sick and then they divorced so he did the lions share of parenting time for the most part. 

I think it was Scoop (sorry if I'm wrong) who posted some stuff about direct and indirect speakers.  I'm going to try to look for it, it was interesting b/c I realized how frustrated I get with DHs FOO b/c they speak indirectly. 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Ruth on September 28, 2011, 08:41:15 AM
Hi, thanks for the answer as to the time they've been married.  I consider that a very young marriage, and I think there's lots of time for dil to get more comfortable with your family and for you all to bond.   It isn't maybe as bad as you think, maybe you both are seeing things very differently.  My viewpoint on the gift drop off gifts remains unchanged, however, even though I'm the lone man out.   Please read my explanation without jumping to conclusions, as I have had much experience with my MIL doing this sort of thing.   It can become a cat fight, all cloaked under smiles.  I'm making no insinuations, just suggesting the way your dil may have viewed this.  I admit, I may be a hothead, and I  have had some very bad attitudes in the past and still have to work on being too touchy and over reacting.  I've felt awful rage at times toward my MIL.  I don't like this at all in my personality, but I work on it continually. 

I can only say that if I had for whatever reason defaulted on my promise to visit my inlaws on Christmas Day, I would consider the action of inlaws pulling up with the motor running and flying into the house with presents provoking.  I would not take the gifts well.  There now I've admitted what a nasty person I really am, but to have done what she and your ds did, not showing, was a very bad offense.  They  may have been in the middle of a huge argument, who knows what was going on in that house.  But I think your gifting gesture would have been endearing and perfect to almost any one else, but when it was toward someone who had animosity toward you and wasn't willing to be mature enough to discuss it with you, I think it was probably throwing fuel on a fire Shelby.

I am sorry about suggesting you talk with your dil, I had forgotten at that time the fact that they had moved far away.  This is just how my personality is, I want so much to make reconciliation with my loved ones that I will keep reaching out as long as I feel there's any hope at all.  And I don't know why, but I admit I am much more inclined to call my AC before a visit, and they never do and I don't feel one bit put upon that they don't call.  I'm always just happy for my children or g/c to come visit me.   But as I said, I want peace more than I want to be right.  And I will eat a lot of crow in order to promote love with those in my life who may be more immature in their loving skills, giving them time to learn as so many others gave me that valuable time and the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 08:51:18 AM
Ruth - thanks for your thoughtful words.  I do not think you are the lone man out on gift drop-off.  Rather, I think it is maybe a majority opposed to drop-off and a significant minority are comfortable with it.  Regardless, I have learned a valuable lesson in this forum about others' thresholds, and that will be helpful with DIL in future. 

As far as talking with DIL, I don't think their moving away has impact on decision to talk to her.  I could talk to her when guys are hiking if in fact I felt it was a good idea - which I don't think it is.  I don't think she would interpret it as an outreach.  Probably more like an attack, which I am loathe to do.  I think other posters felt it would be a mistake to open that up with her, and I have to say I agree with them

thanks for your thoughts.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 28, 2011, 09:45:35 AM
Shelby, I still think there might be a way you can talk to her.  It's probably not a good idea to bring up the examples in this thread or past behavior, that'll put her on the defensive right away.  But I think reaching out to her, maybe over a private lunch or drinks...whatever, something comfortable for both of you and just opening up to her that you'd like a better relationship...  I think it's not a bad idea at all. 

And at least you will know what is going on.  You never know, she could have interpreted things as you don't want to spend time with her.  Since there hasn't been much direct communication you just never know.

I'm with Ruth on stuff like this, the benefit far outweighs the cost on this one IMO.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Scoop on September 28, 2011, 09:51:56 AM
Shelby, if you're PAYING for the cabin then you should go.  Unless this has ALWAYS been planned as a "Guy's Weekend".
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 10:11:04 AM
Pam1 - I appreciate your encouragement, but I have to go with the posters who say steer clear.   You say "You never know, she could have interpreted things as you don't want to spend time with her."  I believe in giving benefit of doubt - but when we have made repeated overtures (my husband, too - so it's not just a female thing) - and have been rebuffed at every turn, there really is no doubt left in our minds.   

I think to continue to pester her for a relationship would lead to disaster.  We are glad they are happy together, and that we have a good relationship with DS, but I'll be darned if I'll spend another 5 years trying to establish a bond with someone who has no interest in such.  I did not come to this conclusion overnight.  It was half a decade in the making - but to repeatedly send cards, gifts (when there is no "Gee thanks" spoken), extend dinner invitations (that are ignored), pay for vacations, etc - when she has made it abundantly clear she wants little to do with us - would be folly. 

Thanks for the encouragement, however.

Scoop - yes, we are paying for the cabin.  My husband wants me to go - but I may decide that a little male bonding will be good for all of them  :)
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: herbalescapes on September 28, 2011, 10:30:16 AM
Sorry everyone, but I love to argue and debate and I have a little bit of time on my hands.  You may think I'm beating a dead horse, but that is one of my favorite pastimes. 

Nana, I'm going to disagree that we can really identify the difference between someone being introverted and someone being deliberately callous and uncaring.  I don't see any conclusive evidence that Shelby's DIL has tried to keep DS away from his FOO or that she selfishly doesn't give a hoot about his family. 

Shelby started off saying she had been alone for so long.  Alone how?  It appears that she is happily married and lives near her other sons and presumably has a good relationship with them.  Her relationship with the DS in question may not be ideal, but it seems that it is decent and Shelby has acknowledged that she is grateful for what she has with him.  Shelby doesn't mention having any daughters or other DILs and I think that may be the crux of the matter.  I don't think there is a vacuum where there should be a relationship with DIL.  I think there is a vacuum where Shelby would have liked to have a relationship with a DIL who became the daughter she never had.  DIL has no obligation to fulfill that role. 

The only rudeness I see on DIL's behalf is not acknowledging gifts and failing to return the car on time.  BUT, we have not heard DIL's side of things.  Maybe DS was supposed to return the car and he didn't.  Maybe DS was supposed to deliver a thank you on DIL's behalf.  We could argue all day about if it's acceptable for a gift to be acknowledged via a third person, but it becomes a moot point.  If I think asking my DH to tell you thanks is acceptable, I don't need to start writing thank you notes because that is what you expect.  You get to decide whether you want to continue giving me gifts without me giving you your version of appropriate thanks or to stop giving me gifts.  Could be DIL totally funked out on these matters.  That would make her guilty of some rudeness and inconsiderateness (something we are all guilty of at one time or another) but hardly makes her a DIL from hell.

Shelby doesn't think she was at all suffocating toward DIL.  DIL may think differently.  Maybe DIL never wanted to go on the expensive family vacation.  Maybe she had a miserable time.  Maybe it was just way too much togetherness.  DIL was civil; I don't think anyone has a right to expect more.  How warm and appreciative would Shelby be if her husband and sons strong-armed her into going on the hiking vacation and she was stuck with DIL for 10 hours a day?  Or if they insisted she put on some hiking boots and join in the fun?  What one person views as the vacation of a lifetime might be another person's idea of purgatory.  Criticizing DIL for not wanting to hear family stories is bizarre in my opinion.  I'm squeamish so I don't want to hear details of any sickness or surgery.  Does that make me uncaring and unsympathetic? 

Regarding granddad being in the hospital, I really don't see any legitimate criticism.  Granddad wasn't lying in a bed with no visitors.  DS was there.  I imagine Shelby and her DH and other sons visited.  Just because DIL didn't visit, doesn't mean she didn't care.  Maybe she called the nurses station to see if there were any visitors before visiting herself and there always were.  Maybe she stopped by a few times and as luck would have it, Granddad was asleep or off having tests done or the doctor was there.  Maybe she didn't ask about Granddad because DS kept her up-to-date without her asking.  Maybe she got updates from the nurses.  Or just maybe Granddad has been rude or nasty to DIL in the past and she has very good reasons to keep her distance.  Is Granddad upset DIL didn't stop by?  If not, this is definitely not an issue for anyone else to get upset about.

Imagine if DIL and DS had stopped by to drop off Christmas gifts but DIL stayed in the car with the engine running while DS handed over the packages without crossing the threshold.  I bet there would be a lot of criticism of DIL and DS.  Yet it's ok for Shelby to behave that way?  Did Shelby expect DIL and DS to cancel their plans with her family because Shelby invited them for the same time? It seems like it was a one strike you're out situation.  Did Shelby suggest getting together another time?  Did any of the other sons suggest getting together?  Maybe DIL and DS can't understand why none of his family really tried to spend part of Christmas with them.  It's kind of a mixed message to complain about being left out then turn down an invitation to come inside.  I know a lot of couples spend Christmas day (and other holidays) bouncing from one set of relatives to the next.  But there is no requirement for them to do so.  It can be exhausting to go from gathering to gathering.  If a couple decides to do just one visit, that's their choice.  It's a little immature to be mad that the holiday wasn't split equally between both FOO. 

I've just read some of the recent replies.  I'll weigh in on one more thing. Is it okay for them to drop in on you if you can't drop in on them?  Sure, IF you don't mind or even like drop in visits.  I do not like drop in visits – family or friends.  My inlaws WANT me to drop by unannounced.  I'm not too comfortable doing that (personal hangup, not their fault), but every once in a while I will.  I am respecting their boundary that includes drop in visits.  But that does not give them permission to drop in on me.  My boundary does not include such visiting. 

I think there is an expectation for DIL to change and be more like DS's FOO.  She is how she is.  That is who DS fell in love with and continues to be in love with.  No one has to change.  As long as they are basically polite, I feel that's all the expectation we can reasonably have. 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Doe on September 28, 2011, 11:24:45 AM
Quote from: herbalescapes on September 28, 2011, 10:30:16 AM
Sorry everyone, but I love to argue and debate and I have a little bit of time on my hands.  You may think I'm beating a dead horse, but that is one of my favorite pastimes. 

beating dead horses or debating?   
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Doe on September 28, 2011, 11:27:10 AM
Oh, that was a joke - (not sure if I have to point that out).  Should have added a winky face.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 28, 2011, 11:57:08 AM
Quote from: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 10:11:04 AM
Pam1 - I appreciate your encouragement, but I have to go with the posters who say steer clear.   You say "You never know, she could have interpreted things as you don't want to spend time with her."  I believe in giving benefit of doubt - but when we have made repeated overtures (my husband, too - so it's not just a female thing) - and have been rebuffed at every turn, there really is no doubt left in our minds.   

I think to continue to pester her for a relationship would lead to disaster.  We are glad they are happy together, and that we have a good relationship with DS, but I'll be darned if I'll spend another 5 years trying to establish a bond with someone who has no interest in such.  I did not come to this conclusion overnight.  It was half a decade in the making - but to repeatedly send cards, gifts (when there is no "Gee thanks" spoken), extend dinner invitations (that are ignored), pay for vacations, etc - when she has made it abundantly clear she wants little to do with us - would be folly. 

Thanks for the encouragement, however.

Scoop - yes, we are paying for the cabin.  My husband wants me to go - but I may decide that a little male bonding will be good for all of them  :)

That stinks, Shelby.  Hopefully though as a PP pointed out, the marriage is still kind of young and things may become more comfortable with time.  I read an article recently that compared the roles of stepmom and MIL and the similarities.  Studies have found that young children take about the same amount of time to feel like a stepmom is family as the age they are when the stepmom is introduced, so if the kid is 4, it generally takes them another 4 years to feel comfortable as family.  And similar with MIL/DIL, the study found it takes an average of 10 years for that bond to take place as well.

So there's hope, maybe it's just the early days.

Whatever you decide about the cabin, going or not going, I think you should plan a week of Shelby fun :)
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 12:20:55 PM
Pam1 - I am confused.  What stinks?  I've already acknowledged that I've learned from other WW posters here that not everyone shares my feelings about dropping off a gift - so since I've learned from that, what stinks otherwise?  Just curious

Herbal - my reference to being alone was to not having anywhere to discuss these feelings - as I would never want to have DS be defensive if he thought I was critical of DIL - husband and I have already hashed this out at length and he is as perplexed by her behavior as I am, and I would not discuss this with other family members or friends - as that would be unkind gossip.  So having this forum gave me an arena in which to share thoughts and listen to solutions and constructive criticism.  (mea culpa on the gift drop-off issue).  So I am not alone in my life - just have been in terms of dealing with this issue. 

By the way I have 2 daughters, so DIL is not the daughter I never had.  We are on great terms with the girls - so I do know how to relate to young women that generation.  The girls just aren't part of the hiking trip.  (maybe my husband only wants me there so I can cook up a big manly breakfast for all of the guys!)  :)

Family stories did not involve sickness or injury - just stories about what a great guy her husband is. 

As far as other efforts made towards sick Grand Dad - that is certainly a dead horse.  Keep beating if you wish, but I'm done there.

Your comments on Christmas are inaccurate.  We did try to spend some of Christmas with them.  Invited them to Christmas dinner - they never gave a response.  No one was mad they didn't split the holiday equally.  We simply thought they could RSVP to our invitation - with either a yes or a no - and if they spent the day with her FOO they might have made a phone call to us to say Merry Christmas.  That's hardly our being "immature and mad that the holiday wasn't split equally between both FOOs".  And I agree that bouncing back and forth between both FOOs is exhausting - and we never expected that.  Just a phone call.  Frankly, although my husband and I did bounce back and forth a lot to please both FOOs, and I don't regret it, one cost is the young couple sometimes do not develop their own traditions, which will be very important once GC come.  So you may have missed a lot in previous posts - but your Christmas comments are off the mark.  We encourage our daughters to develop their own family traditions - and not feel an obligation to bounce back and forth.  And on the holidays they are not with us, they never fail to call and wish us a Merry Christmas or Happy Thanksgiving.  5 minutes on the phone does not seem to make them feel burdened or resentful. 

Here's where I do agree with you -- when you say -
"No one has to change.  As long as they are basically polite, I feel that's all the expectation we can reasonably have. " 

Basic politeness is the sum total of my expectations of DIL.  I am absolutely not trying to change her or get her to be more like DS' FOO.  Those kinds of things never work.  She is who she is, and as long as son is happy, so be it.  That's all that matters - his happiness and the fact that we have a good relationship with him, as we do with the other 4
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: tryingmybest on September 28, 2011, 12:30:42 PM
Shelby I think you are right on the money girl. You can't change her to meet your expectations, and to even try would be a disaster. seems she wants a civil but detached relationship. give it to her and relax. life is too short to throw energy away on people who don't want it. this is her choice, and you have done all you can do.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 12:35:23 PM
Thanks, trying.  Frankly I am at peace with the DIL relationship.  I had just wanted feedback on the wisdom of going on the hiking trip - and in the process gained a whole new perspective on gift drop-offs.   So it's a plus for me.  Thanks
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 28, 2011, 12:46:32 PM
Shelby, I didn't mean anything against you, I just think it is sad that the relationship seems to be irreparable.  I'm pretty much there with my own MIL and like you, I'm accepting it or ok, *almost* accepting it ;)  (What can I say, I'm stubborn and hopeful lol.)  These situations are so sad to me though.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 12:55:32 PM
Pam1 - thanks - I did not think you meant anything against me.  I am accepting the relationship as it is - so I don't feel the relationship is irreparable --- I take the attitude that it doesn't need repairing - that it is fine the way it is.  It may be something other that what I expected 5 years ago - but I accept her for who she is, I am glad my son is loved, -- and accepting that eliminates any need to *fix* the relationship.   And it is only sad if one cannot accept the dialed back level of the relationship.  I totally accept the lower level :).  It would be hard to accept if we didn't have great relationship with DS, but we have that, so we have everything. 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 28, 2011, 01:16:36 PM
Ahhh, hope I get to that point someday :) 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Pen on September 28, 2011, 01:37:08 PM
I think it's wonderful that we want to find the best in people, so I appreciate those who are looking at Shelby's situation with her DIL and finding possible excuses for DIL's behavior. However, I have a DIL situation very similar to Shelby's and can relate to the hurt and bewilderment Shelby seems to be feeling.

It's hard to believe that someone could treat another person this way, but I am a witness to it in my own family. It's not fair, but that's what we ended up with. Some days I can accept that we are in last place, and some days I am in tears. Thanks to this site my happier days outnumber the sad.

As the long-time members know, my DIL never had any intention of joining our family or of accepting us simply as important people in DS's life. In fact, she & her FOO shunned us and expressed their hatred for us early on. DS put his foot down and demanded we be treated with a little more consideration, so things are a bit better now. I have no illusions that we'll have anything close to equal GP status if and when the time comes.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 02:49:52 PM
Pen - thanks for the wise words.  I too appreciate others finding the best in people, including my DIL, but am currently a little exhausted trying to explain that after 5 years, no I am not misinterpreting things.  Neither is my husband - who has never been guilty of female drama in his life. 

Not saying I'm perfect -- I have learned a valuable lesson regarding gift drop-offs from this group -- but I do want to enjoy retirement and not be pressured to constantly walk on eggshells around someone who has made it perfectly clear what her interest level in DS FOO is.  Nor would it make any sense to try to "talk it out" with someone who is disinterested. 

Sorry your DIL is disinterested - but there is an upside.  You can spend your energies on people that truly care about you - and it appears your DS did put his foot down.  He loves you, and that is all that counts.  And of course you will not have equal GP status when the time comes.  I have already accepted that.  Again, the upside is that you won't have to get exhausted chasing toddlers  :)

Take care
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Begonia on September 28, 2011, 02:57:43 PM
Shelby:  I liked when you said this:

I think to continue to pester her for a relationship would lead to disaster.  We are glad they are happy together, and that we have a good relationship with DS, but I'll be darned if I'll spend another 5 years trying to establish a bond with someone who has no interest in such.  I did not come to this conclusion overnight.  It was half a decade in the making - but to repeatedly send cards, gifts (when there is no "Gee thanks" spoken), extend dinner invitations (that are ignored), pay for vacations, etc - when she has made it abundantly clear she wants little to do with us - would be folly.


I admire that boundary and I agree (without knowing all the particulars).  The main thing is that you are comfortable and it seems you are. I am in some of your same shoes and after 5 years I have said enough is enough and I feel really peaceful about that.  Keep posting!! 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 03:04:05 PM
Thank, Begonia.  After 30+ years of making the children the center of our lives, and now that everyone's college is paid for, DH and I are truly enjoying the benefits of empty-nesting.  Some travel, meals out so I don't have to cook all the time, doing what *we* want to do - not what is dictated by the kids' schedules.  We haven't gotten to put ourselves first since the late 70's - so that may be why I am so ready to move on and accept my son's choices as they are.  Glad you are peaceful about your situation, whatever it is.  5 years must be a magic milestone.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Barbie on September 28, 2011, 03:31:53 PM
Shelby,

I'm in a similar situation and finally came to the same realization as you but it wasn't easy getting to this point. I was so heartbroken, first, when I couldn't see DS on a regular basis and then my GC, we don't have GP's equal status, but it's ok now, DH and I have a lot of catching up to do, when we see them we make the best of it. We have two other children so we'll have other opportunities...

Hugs.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 28, 2011, 04:30:32 PM
Barbie - yes letting go can be hard - but just like playing tug-of-war, when you let go, there is nothing left for DS or DIL to resist.  At that point, DS may realize he misses having you involved in his life.  At least that's what happened with us.  DIL may not, but I bet DS will.

Hugs to you too.  :-*
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: justus on September 28, 2011, 07:42:43 PM
I know I am late to this, but of course I have to put in my two cents.

My SD (step-daughter) is 26 and has treated me horribly over the years. She even tried to push me down the stairs during one awful drama filled night when she was 16. There was a point that I just had to decide to love her no matter what. She had been through so much and would have loyalty issues that I would be on the losing end of probably for the rest of her life, but she was DH's DD and I could not help but love her. I have always been there for her and was often kicked in the teeth for my effort when she was an adolescent. The incredibly hard part was not expecting anything in return for whatever I gave her. Whatever I gave I gave freely, because I knew she was incapable of giving anything in return. Besides, it isn't really a gift if you expect anything, even a thank you, in return.

Don't get me wrong, I was never door matt and I had firm boundaries. That stairs incident ended with SD flat on her back on the stairs with me in her face. After that she had a choice of counseling or moving across the country to live with her crazy mother. I never gave more than I was comfortable giving. She knew that whatever I gave had no strings, and she appreciated the boundaries even as she tested them.

We are comfortable with each other now. She respects me and she treats me decently. When she needs something, she knows she can count on me and I am always welcome in her home. Her crazy mother finally did something to harm GC, which got her CO. Now SD really appreciates me and everything I did for her. It took her 13 years to get there. 

Frankly, she reminds me of your DIL. SD keeps her distance from SIL's family, because she is afraid of being rejected and she drank DH's clan's  and her crazy mother's loyalty cool-aid. Fortunately, DH didn't partake in that little cocktail. Her coolness is a sort of self-defense. She rejects them before they can reject her. She kept rejecting me, but I was still there every time and she finally trusts that.

Take home message, is that you need to totally drop your expectations of SIL. If you don't expect anything, you won't be disappointed and there won't be that dead elephant in the room every time you see her. You all know it is there, but no one wants to mention it even if it is stinking up the place and if you are honest with yourself, you want it to be there so you have some reason to be mad, to be the victim so you can have the upper hand. We have all been there and it is totally counter productive.

Don't give more than you can give freely and with no strings. People resent strings and resentment builds. Don't give her any reason to resent you. Assume the best.

Let all of this past crap go, and don't let any future resentment build. It isn't worth it. It just clutters up your heart and mind. Believe me, I know how hard it is to detach and let it go, it is something you have to work on, sometimes everyday. It is worth the effort, because all it does is poison you.

Finally, I don't remember who said it, but who your DIL is isn't bad, just different. Accept that difference, even if you don't understand it.

I think you are in a pretty good spot with knowing that it is time to step back and let her come to you, or not. Either way, accept her with open arms when you do see her having let go of all of your past resentments. This will go a long way towards any future relationship. You are lucky you simply have an indifferent SIL and not a truly crazy one. Your situation could be a lot worse. I have a feeling your SIL will grow up and grow out of some of this.

In the end, this isn't about being right.

Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Ruth on September 29, 2011, 07:18:51 AM
I love your post Justus.  you are such an asset to this website, God bless you and you have my deepest admiration.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: herbalescapes on September 29, 2011, 08:01:24 AM
I got to thinking about how DIL might categorize her relationship with MIL.  I've known couples where one spouse thinks everything is hunky dory and the other is ready to file for divorce.  There's a book, Flipped, which tells the story in alternating chapters with the boy and girl giving their different takes on the same incidents.  It's a kids book, but it is funny.With DIL being such a different personality, I can easily imagine her take being something like this:

My MIL would nominate me for DIL of the Year if there were such an award.  I have such a great relationship with my in-laws.  It was a little rocky at first – mostly because my DH had some serious unresolved issues with his parents. They went to counseling and things have really gotten to a good place. 

I almost broke up with my husband before we were engaged after going on a vacation with his family.  Don't get me wrong; they were very nice and polite, but we are just such different people. The togetherness was simply stifling.  We went to XYZ to do ABC which is not something I enjoy. I told DH I didn't want to go, but he really wanted me to, so I gave in.   I was really miserable, but I tried to put on a good face and made sure I didn't complain.  Like I said, I was ready to split up with DH because if these types of vacations were going to be the norm, I knew I would eventually crack and go on a rampage.  There was one little incident that gave me hope.  My MIL told some story about DH when he was a little boy.  I really couldn't put up with any more socializing and interaction.  I just have an extremely low tolerance for personal interaction.  I can do it at work, but in my personal life, I need a lot of alone time.  I was at the end of my rope and ready to scream.  Then MI L asked if I'd like to hear more stories.  I wanted to say, "I'd rather have root canal done and a colonoscopy than have any more conversation," but I simply said, "No."  And she respected that.  I think most MILs would have gotten into a big huff and declared me a selfish, self-absorbed little tart, but she just nodded and went off and started getting ready for dinner.  It was such a relief that she could respect me as being different. 

Some people might think our relationship is odd, but it works for us.  I am so much less social than my husband and his family.  I thought that would be a problem, but it's worked out really well.  My DH sees his parents and siblings several times a month.  If I went along I'd be chomping at the bit to leave after 15 minutes and our visits would dwindle to twice a year.  But he's free to see them as often as he likes for as long as he likes and I visit only a handful of times a year. 

My MIL is so sweet.  Every couple of months she calls me instead of DH.  I think she wants to make sure I know I'm part of the family.  I know she really wants to talk to her son, so I pass along the message and let him reply.  My DH, while having some great qualities, is somewhat forgetful about returning calls and messages.  I follow up with him after a few days and if he hasn't called MIL back, I call her.  I've thought about apologizing for DH for not calling back sooner, but I can't think of a way to do that without insulting the way she raised her son.  She never complains about the delay in response, so I figure it's not a problem for her. 
One issue I had early on which has fortunately resolved itself is gifts.  In my family, gifts always came with a hefty emotional price tag.  At first MIL would buy me really nice and expensive gifts.  This was nice of her, but I can't help having a gut reaction of dread if anyone but my husband gives me a gift.  I asked my DH to talk to his mom about this – I knew I couldn't do so without hurting her feelings – and she has stopped giving me gifts.  I like that she respects this quirk of mine. 

There were two small incidents that really made me know I was an accepted member of the family.  There were two occasions – one Christmas and one birthday, I think – where DH wasn't able to arrange to get together with his family.  We had been travelling and came home to some house problems and some minor crisis in my family.  I know my in-laws were disappointed not to get together, but instead of making a big stink about it, my FIL and MIL just dropped by and left the gifts.  We invited them in, of course, but they just smiled and said "No thanks."  I really felt they had come to see how DH and I could conduct family matters differently than they did.  Every family interaction didn't have to be prolonged with a lot of conversation and the like.  It was ok to have a "visit" of less than a minute. 

We moved away from his family recently.  It's odd, but I actually miss them.  They were great about helping us out when we had a problem.  They are coming out in a few months to go on a hiking vacation.  I'm looking forward to seeing them.  I even told DH I would hike one day (only one day, though) with them.  I bought some hiking boots and I've been getting in shape to keep up. 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 29, 2011, 08:33:58 AM
herbalescapes, I thought something similar, great point.  Perspective is key but it doesn't sound like DILs is even known.  That's why I have a problem with the whole no communication thingie, you just never know.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 29, 2011, 09:05:47 AM
herbal - I know you mean well, but you don't give me enough credit to interpret body language, years of snubs, etc from DIL.  And my DH - is is not given to drama - is as turned off by her behavior as I am. 

I commend you for looking on bright side and giving benefit of doubt - and in earlier posts you were practically an acrobat, coming up with all kinds of convoluted explanations for each action of DIL.  Any one event can be explained away - but time after time, year after year - the odds of *both* me and DH misinterpreting DIL's actions is lower than the odds of O.J. Simpson truly being innocent. 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: elsieshaye on September 29, 2011, 10:03:55 AM
Quote from: Doe on September 28, 2011, 06:44:25 AM
Morphing this into a discussion on unannounced drop-ins - I wonder if the women who are annoyed with ILs dropping in with gifts are also annoyed with anyone dropping in with gifts?  If friends or neighbors dropped by with a gift would it cause a rift in the relationship?

For me personally, the answer would be yes, I would be annoyed (but it wouldn't cause a rift unless it was repeat behavior, or there had been some reason to see it as passive aggression rather than an issue of conflicting expectations) . I hate having anyone come to the door at any time, for any reason, without calling first and making sure if it's ok.  Especially on holidays.  I would find it equally intrusive to have someone just show up for 5 seconds as for an hour, regardless of why.

I'm pretty private and introverted in general.  And holidays when I was growing up were private time with just the three of us - we did our visiting in the days before or after.  There were a few holiday phone calls, but no visits on the day.  My current favorite way to spend holidays is tucked up at home in my PJs, eating Chinese food and watching movies.  I would not be very excited to answer the door under those circumstances, lol.  (And, in fact, I don't answer the door, or my phone, on holidays.)
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Doe on September 29, 2011, 11:57:42 AM
Hey , well at least we can come over via the internet!
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: pam1 on September 29, 2011, 02:15:46 PM
Quote from: Shelby on September 29, 2011, 09:05:47 AM
herbal - I know you mean well, but you don't give me enough credit to interpret body language, years of snubs, etc from DIL.  And my DH - is is not given to drama - is as turned off by her behavior as I am. 

I commend you for looking on bright side and giving benefit of doubt - and in earlier posts you were practically an acrobat, coming up with all kinds of convoluted explanations for each action of DIL.  Any one event can be explained away - but time after time, year after year - the odds of *both* me and DH misinterpreting DIL's actions is lower than the odds of O.J. Simpson truly being innocent.

I think you probably are picking up on her body language, no doubt about it. 

However, just with the gift delivery on Xmas, you could be wrong.  Not saying that you are.  But I think what I and other posters have been trying to get across is that we think the relationship is important enough to try to work it out.  You really do not know at all what she is thinking or her perspective.  Just as you have examples of her behavior that upset you, there could be examples she has of behavior that upset her. 

Ultimately, it is up to you and you seem fine with it.  Although, I think it is kind of unusual to see out a website such as this if you were truly fine with it, IMHO.

Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Doe on September 29, 2011, 02:36:13 PM
I'm sorta of surprised this thread is still going!   Maybe it's a slow 'thread' day? 

Shelby, sounds like you're doing fine.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: Shelby on September 29, 2011, 03:24:05 PM
Pam - you said
"Ultimately, it is up to you and you seem fine with it.  Although, I think it is kind of unusual to seek out a website such as this if you were truly fine with it, IMHO."

The fact that I sought out the website doesn't mean I have trouble accepting DIL as she is.  If you would refer back to initial and other posts, you would realize the question was never "How do I get closer to my DIL?" or anything along that line -- the question was always - "Do I go on this vacation near DS and DIL's new home, or do I send the guys stag and enjoy my own time?"   *Big* difference. 

Doe - thanks for vote of confidence.  I am serene, especially since I have decided to skip the cabin/hiking vacation.  Hope to stay serene and hope others will quit trying to press me to "work it out" with DIL.  If it is not broken, it doesn't need to be "worked out". 

Thanks to everyone.  I'm sure I saved several hundred dollars in therapy costs by hearing all your opinions - especially those of ultra-private people who don't even like when the postal carrier or their children's little friends ring the bell or show up uninvited.  A real eye-opener for me.  I have truly benefitted from hearing all of it, not just the supportive comments. 

However, I, like Doe, am surprised the thread is still going.  It probably should be put out of it's misery and rest in peace, as I plan to.  Please, all you WW out there, I'll make you a deal - you don't bug me to "talk it out" with a DIL who has made her attitude towards me very clear, and I promise not to drop off a gift at your house without permission.  ;)

Goodbye, all.  Doe and others - I'll see you on another thread.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: herbalescapes on September 29, 2011, 05:03:27 PM
I've made this suggestion in other threads: Everryone in the world should read some of the books by Deborah Tannen.  She's a sociolinguist who studies conversation styles.  She points out that many misunderstandings arise when people with different conversing styles try to communicate without recognizing their differences.  We are often unaware of conversational styles, so we make moral judgments.  I've read many of her books which makes me have an almost knee-jerk reaction to someone claiming they can accurately interpret someone's body language or unspoken message.

One of the most readily recognizable style differences is that between men and women.  Not all women and men converse strictly according to gender stereotypes and style can be influenced by age, religion, nationality, etc.  However, it's a common complaint among women that when they share problems with their husbands, the husbands, instead of offering sympathy, offer solutions.  Most women would agree the husband is being inconsiderate.  The wife obviously wants connection.  Most men, though, would sympathize with the bewildered husband about why did the wife ask for help when she wasn't interested in solving her problems.  This miscommunication has been going on for generations.  Couples have this same complaint for decades with thousands of examples of the spouse being an idiot.  Yet no one is being inconsiderate or flighty or stupid.  It's just two people talking with different purposes. 

Think of the "I'll call you" tag at the end of a date.  After all this time you'd think men would cotton on to not saying this because women take this seriously and are disappointed when the man doesn't call.  On the other hand, you'd think women would recognize this as a male version of "Have a nice day" and not take it seriously.  Yet year in and year out, many men and women have serious heartburn over this little phrase. 

Once we get an idea in our heads, it's so easy to find evidence to support.   For the DIL in this thread, all her behaviors – not returning calls, not acknowledging gifts, not visiting Grandpa in the hospital, not inviting the ILs over, not visiting ILs with DH – can be explained by DIL not liking the ILs and wanting them out of her and DHs lives.  Those behaviors, though, can also be explained by DIL being vey introverted and uncomfortable with any but the most minimal social interactions.  They can also be explained by DIL and DH adopting the policy of your-family-your-responsibility.  The same set of facts can often be explained by multiple theories. 

Have any of you seen Wicked?  If not, try to because it is awesome.  The first time I saw it I thought I detected just a handful of instances where this play didn't actually mesh up with the original Wizard of Oz.  The second time I saw it, I couldn't find those instances and I was looking for them because it was driving me crazy that I knew I had identified some but couldn't remember them specifically.  In any instance, Wicked gives a very different account of what happened in Oz but doesn't contradict any (or at least very little) of the events of the original story. 

Do any of you remember the movie Clue?  It had 4 or 5 different endings.  The first 90 minutes of the movie were the same, but the last 5-10 minutes had Tim Curry (?) explaining the events differently and identifying a different murderer.  If you've ever read a well-written murder mystery, all the clues are there for to figure out whodunit, but there's enough subtlety and red herrings that you are convinced either no one did it or everyone did until the very end.  The human brain has to filter all the information it receives.  Different brains filter and interpret the same information differently.

I had a friend in college who colored all his pictures black when he was in kindergarten.  The teacher grew concerned and talked with the principal, nurse and finally the parents.  They were all convinced my friend was well on the way to becoming a serial murderer.  Finally they asked him what was going on.  Was he angry or upset about anything?  No, it was just that the kids at each table had to share a box of crayons and the other kids grabbed the other colors first.  Black was the only one left for him to use.
I knew a woman who was convinced her husband was having an affair.  She observed a lot of suspicious behaviors – conversations cut short, people gossiping behind her back, knowing looks.  Turned out her husband was planning a surprise party for her. 

It happens that someone serving time behind bars is proven by new evidence – often DNA these days – to be innocent.  Yet sometimes the prosecuting attorneys or police officers remain absolutely convinced the inmate was guilty.  Some studies show that eyewitness testimony can be highly unreliable.  A crime victim will positively identify a perpetrator.  Even after other evidence proves beyond any doubt – not just reasonable doubt – that the supposed perpetrator couldn't have committed the crime, the victim remains convinced s/he made an accurate identification. 

Back to this thread, the accusation has been made that DIL has tried to alienate her DH from his family.  I see absolutely no evidence given to support such a claim.  Has she told lies about her ILs to put them in a bad light?  Has she tried to stop her DH from calling/visiting his family?  Has she deliberately withheld information or erased voicemails or emails before he could see them?  Did DH attend counseling with his parents against her objections?  Is she trying to prevent him from going on the hiking trip?  Did she forbid him from trying to visit with or call family at Christmas?  Did she object to him visiting Granddad in the hospital?  Since I find this particular accusation unsupported by the facts given, I take a harder and more critical look at the other interpretations of her behavior. 

It's possible Shelby is right on target.  DIL may hate her ILs with a passion and stick needles into voodoo dolls of  them every night.  She may be supremely indifferent to them and wouldn't care if they dropped off the face of the earth.  One thing I think we should all acknowledge is that Shelby has done something absolutely wonderful as a MIL: She has refrained from criticizing DIL to DS.  I know I would much rather have a MIL who made the wrong assumptions about my behavior and kept her assumptions to herself than a MIL who confronted me every time she thought I was being rude or worse, ran her assumptions by my DH to ask his opinion. 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: herbalescapes on September 29, 2011, 05:05:57 PM
Well I posted before I read the more recent posts.  I guess this thread is hanging up. Oooh, gooody, I get the last word!  It's better than debating a dead horse!!!!!!
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: twinsmom on September 29, 2011, 05:29:14 PM
Go on the trip.  Spa in the day and spend time with the family at night.  Son is doing the best he can, he has a wife who feels differently.  Don't hold that against your son; he cannot change her and he obviously loves her.  however  I also see that he loves his family as well.  Don't let a gap widen there because of DIL/
Title: Re: Advice needed - Future daughter-in-law is allowing contact only via her
Post by: lancaster lady on September 30, 2011, 12:25:09 AM
Lol ........guess we just love happy families ! After five years of trying , I would have thrown in the towel ! Welcome aboard Shelby , we just love fixing things , even when they are not broken !