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Hello I am new to this site.. but I really need some advice here from any one who is having issues with there adult children like me.. To get right at the point.. I have a son 28. he want talk to me .. when i call he is busy.. in the past he blame me for leaving his dad and said he was left taking care of him.. I ask him to come lived with me but he said his dad was not strong enough not like me.. several times he would say I am not suppose to take care of dad .. he is suppose to take care of us.. Guess you know why I left him??.. my son just finish his 5th tour in afganistan. and well he has alot of issues now from the war.. But he want talk yo me.. breaks my heart for a son or daughter to go thru things and as a mom can not be there.. Now I have a daughter who is cold hearted as they come.. her daddy spoiled her rotten.. I love her with all my heart she is my angell. Buet she is living with a man who she is supporting.. I have to respect she is adult..but every time we have a conersation she insults me.. hurts so bad.. now she want talk to me.. i try to be a good mom.. listen to them .. try not to judge them.. and just be there when i am needed. No thank God there are no grandkids.. I would never see them or be a part of there lives.. I was a good mom.. did every thing for them..  now i am nothing... i try and try to talk to them but i am being ignored..  It hurts so bad.. I cry all the time and pray for them every day... I thought about just leaving them alone.. But then they would think i gave up on them.. No matter what i do is wrong... what should I do>>>

Hi and Welcome - The first thing we try to do and it is very hard...is to step back and rest for a bit. Then we try to find out what is left of us and build from there. Your adult-kids know you care about them. Now it is time to care for yourself. Be kind to your self...love yourself...remember who and what you were before parenting and start healing that person. Sending love...

Pcbd1234, welcome to the site. Luise pretty much summed it up, but I'll add my 2 cents:

We did the best we could raising our children; now that they are grown they are making their own choices. It's very unfair that we should be ignored by the kids we love so deeply, but unfortunately none of us can control how our adult children act. I know it hurts like a kick in the gut right now & if you're like me you think you'll never heal. None of us here were prepared for having our children turn away from us, so we understand what you're going through.

All we can do is take good care of ourselves and step back from the situation, as Luise said. We can let them know we love them and will always be there for them, but that we need to be treated with love and appreciation, so for now we're taking a break. Sometimes, given space and time, our children decide to give a relationship with us another go. At the very least we find peace & healing by taking the focus off of them and back onto ourselves, our mates, our hobbies, & our lives.

Start with little steps...what can you do right now to pamper yourself? What will you do this evening? How about tomorrow - can you meet a friend for brunch or a walk in a garden? Write down your ideas, and make sure you set something firmly on your calendar. It may be that you need to discuss this with a trusted professional; if so, make that call first thing on Monday.

Please keep posting. We're here for you and supportive of your efforts towards peace and progress!

Welcome pcbd,

You will find alot of support and new ways of looking at things here as well as many wonderful women.

I agree with the advice of Luise and Pen. 

Stepping back and letting my son be the one to make contact has helped my relationship with him.  I'm relatively new here
and  taking these small steps and having the support of the women here has helped me keep up my
inner strength and not start ruminating about my DIL and DS.  Also, DS has initiated contact with me more since
I stepped back.  Things are not where I'd like them to be, but I have a focus and an approach and that helps alot.  you will too if you stick around.  There is so much wisdom here.   8)

Thank you so much for your advice.. I will try that.. Whew it is so hard .. I am always thinking if I don't call they will think I do not care.. If I do call I am bugging them.. I was told once by a pastor of ours never give on on your children .. even if they give up on you.. I kep that pounded in my head.. But stepping back sounds good.. Thanks again ..

Yes, I can relate to what you are saying.  I have felt that -- that I have to  reach out and show I care even when I'm getting
treated poorly.  Now I have a different view. 

I know how you feel.  My daughter is shutting me out.  Sadly, I feel the same way you do about grandkids ...I would love to be a grandma one day, but not if this is the way the daughter will treat me, I may never have a decent relationship with the grandkid!  My daughter is 30.  She and I got in fight before Christmas and haven't spoken or emailed since about a week after Christmas.  We haven't seen each other for little over a year.  We emailed about a week after Christmas and I tried to set boundaries with her and stand up for myself so she got mad.  I had decided to not contact her since that and wait for her to make a move.  But, today I got so sad about it as I love her she is my only daughter...so I did email short email to her only saying hello and that I hope she is o.k.   I may get a mean response back from her, or no response at all...I really don't know.  I don't regret emailing her no matter what she does.  I think as far as that goes that is a personal decision as to whether you contact your children or not.  It may be good to take a breather for sure if things have gotten completely volatile with you and your kids.  My dad just died a couple of months ago, so I am grieving which hurts all the worse when you are not getting along with your adult children when you need them the most.  I guess that's a big reason I emailed her today too.  Life is short and we never know what can happen tomorow you know.  I do totally agree with the other ladies about leading your own life more and I think it's crucial to get on with your life in doing things for yourself to feel better and have more of a life not completely centered around your children.  I struggle with that a lot.  I want to work on that.  I hope you can too.  I would say follow your heart.  Now, if they continually put you down, scream and verbally abuse you every time you try to reach out...yes, it may be a good time to step back and let them make the first move.  Hugs and prayers and I hope it gets better for you and yours.  :)   

Welcome pcbd.  I echo what the others say.

I too used to think I had to remain in contact or they would think I didn't love them or care.  Since then I have realized that "give up" is not the same as "give out".

The most painful thing for me with my eldest son is that when I gave up...he didn't care.

Amen Luise

Quote from: luise.volta on January 24, 2011, 09:01:30 AM
The most painful thing for me with my eldest son is that when I gave up...he didn't care.

How long did it take you to reach the point of giving up, Luise?  And how did you process the fact that your son didn't care?  Were you prepared for his response? 

Please share with us about your dp's, siblings; & how you grew up.  Were you a natural-born survivor, as you appear here?  Or did you "evolve" as so many of us are trying to learn to do?

How are Val & me, too?  I hope they're fairing well...

Thanks,
Rose

I will respond to that as soon as I get back. I'm going to be out much of the day and didn't want you to think I was ignoring your post. Sending love...

To Laurie:  ;D ;D ;D He lives in Michigan and I live in Washington, remember? And "hot" doesn't seem realistic at 83 and 85! Beside that, he has had open heart surgery and has a pacemaker...so we also don't use the phrase..."Be still my heart!"  (But we do joke about it!  :) )

Rose - I think giving up is an ongoing process that has to be reaffirmed often...and redefined and updated occasionally. One aspect of us gives up but we are many-faceted and there are other parts that have other agendas. (Like the "be right" and/or "poor me" parts that often take over.) I create a gratitude list every morning and evening to try to balance it out as much as possible.

I, like the rest of you, have found my peace and wisdom in the school of hard knocks. I am a survivor, obviously, but I was a very sensitive little girl who was diminished at home. My mother was a teacher before she married but had a heart condition that limited her all of her life and finally took her at 63. My dad was a CPA and a violinist. We were upper middle class when the depression hit. They just didn't have the energy to give me what I needed and so I floundered and fell and fought and lost and settled on being an underachiever. I was often angry on the surface but within, I had no self-definition or direction. Lots of deep sadness. Beyond that what sustained me, and still does, was/is my inner joyfulness and sense of whimsy and silliness. I have a happy Soul.

I have had a lot of help along the way; support groups, seminars, private counseling and wise and wonderful friends. My Spiritual Path has been and always will be a life-long project of inner emancipation. I have been married five times, lived in five states and been a successful entrepreneur five times. (Lots of fives.) Not necessarily in neat and tidy segments. For instance two marriages were 18 years and this one is at 21, so I don't give up easily. I had four sons...one died shortly after birth, one died shortly before birth and one, my eldest, died at 52. He's the one I had such difficulty with. Kirk, our Webmaster, is my surviving son. I have gleaned along the way two more sort of sons and five sort of daughters. So, up to eight "kids" gather around me on special occasions and they would all be here in a New York second if I needed them.   

I'm a registered nurse and managed the medical, disability claims department at Aetna for 13 years. I have been a nursery school teacher/owner, independent interior decorator, real estate private contractor, independent dairy herd tester and blog owner (with income from Google AdSense.) I think retirement is overrated and should be called re-direction. After living in a retirement community for the last 10 years, it's my take that being useful is the most important thing for most of us...not being entertained. I live where we put in over 39,000 hours a year volunteering on campus and replace 18 full-time employees.

If you want more, just ask.   :) Sending love...

I love hearing about Luise's life....

It's Rose's fault...she asked.  ;)

Luise, you've had a wonderful and very full life of caring for other people.  You are very insightful and leave a lasting impact.  I am sorry about your Depression childhood; my mother had one, and chose lifelong bitterness rather than going outward.  She was never particularly interested in anyone but herself.  Still, she was a good mother in terms of physical care and I honor her for it; to her, being able to go shopping was a very big deal because she had so little growing up.  You bootstrapped your emotions up, and your inner spirit was too strong to be broken by the bad things in your childhood.

I like all the fives.  Is it a lucky number, do you consider at this stage? 

Pooh and I like five Margaritas.

Thank you for sharing, what a great writer you are also.

Kathleen

Thank you!  :) I honestly think sometimes that we know on some level what we came in to do. For me, it has been to deal with and get past whatever comes between me and my deep sense of joy. Even when I didn't know that, I yearned for it...not to "find" happiness externally in people, places and things but to identify and express what I carry in my heart.

Quote from: Pooh on January 25, 2011, 02:10:03 PM
I love hearing about Luise's life....

Me too!

What an interesting life you have led, Luise.  I have to say I still sometimes wonder "Why am I here". I do wish I had more of your outlook on life.  However, on looking back, I have accomplished a lot of what I wanted to do, except of course having a close-knit family....Jill

I think I will ask my DIL, who know numerology, what the number represents. Be right back.  ;)

Me too!

Quote from: luise.volta on January 25, 2011, 07:14:41 PM
I think I will ask my DIL, who know numerology, what the number represents. Be right back.  ;)

Ok, seriously Luise...I'm still waiting on what our number 5 means? La la la la la la la la

pcdb1234~ you stated your sons been to Afghan 5 times,as a military mother myself,and my sons been to Iraq and Afghan,your son may be suffering from P.T.S.D.. Post Treamatic Stress Disorder,there are so many of them coming back with it,it's a very serious form of depression and alot of times goes undetected becouse they are embarrassed to admit it...please read up on it if you can~I've seen and heard of so many stories where these guys come home and cannot reajust to civillian life or our problems~Thank Your son for me and from one military mom to another~BIG HUGS~

It (5) means" Progress, Reward, and Change! Flexibility.

Quote from: luise.volta on January 26, 2011, 09:40:48 AM
It (5) means" Progress, Reward, and Change! Flexibility.

...as in being a survivor~

Thank you, Luise, for sharing your experiences.  I don't believe I would ever tire from asking you questions.  How much free time have you got?  : )   I love your sage advice & open heart.  You can add teacher, counselor & dear friend to your resume.   You went far, far from being an underachiever.   You are a diamond, if ever there was one, Luise.  There are many diamonds in the rough on this site.  I hope to be one some day...when I grow up.   : )

We've all benefited because you opted to remain useful in your retirement.  Your silliness truly helps me get through the day at times.  Thanks so much!

Rose

p.s.  You forgot to update us on Val & me, too...

 :D Thank you! Val and Me, Too are hanging in. Both are close to the end but both seem to have plateaued for the time being.

In early December, Me, Too's left lens ruptured and painfully brought instant blindness in that eye. Steroid eye drops, that I just happened to have because of my cornea transplant in August, saved the day and he is without pain. I take him over to nursing to see Val every day and the three of us walk in the hall where everyone makes over both of them. :-)

I thought about the underachiever-thing when I won the Bank of America local hero award last fall against over 330 other candidates of all ages for my Web-work. There was a $5,000. grant to my favorite charity (the Warm Beach Retirement Center's Good Samaritan Fund for residents in crisis) that went with it. I thought my knees would knock when I gave my acceptance speech...but it was OK. I was silly as well as serious and they all seemed to enjoy it. Somewhere on WWU I published the press release and my speech.

That's a big load that you're carrying, Luise.  I'm really sorry.   It's nice that you're nearby to be able to spend time with your hubby daily.  And the two of you are excellent therapy for him.  How old is Me, too?   

I had read about your award but didn't know you were up against so many candidates.  That's quite an accomplishment, indeed!  Hip, Hip Hooray!  Great job!!!

You're in my thoughts & prayers,
Rose

Me, Too is 15 and Val is 99. Me, Too is a Chihuahua and weighs 3.5 pounds. If you want to know what kind of mischief I get into in my spare time...read under Grab Bag under Luise;s Romance, if you haven't been following that thread. Life is full of surprises.

I will try to enclose a picture of Val and Me, Too here. Did it turn out?

(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc491/luisevolta/Dad2.jpg)

Quote from: luise.volta on January 26, 2011, 04:45:13 PM
Me, Too is 15 and Val is 99. Me, Too is a Chihuahua and weighs 3.5 pounds. If you want to know what kind of mischief I get into in my spare time...read under Grab Bag under Luise;s Romance, if you haven't been following that thread. Life is full of surprises.

Awe, I see why people make over those two...  That's a great picture.  From what I understand, they're not the only head-turners in the family.  ;) It's sweet that you've remained friends with your old beau over the years.  And you finally got that ring!  ;D ;D ;D

What a beautiful portrait, Luise. Did you take the photograph?

Luise,  lovely photo. 

what about the ring?  I missed that story.

Oh Luise, what a wondeful picture!  They both look so happy and eyes that sparkle with joy. 

Tara, go over to the grab bag, Luise's Romance and you will find the story of the ring.  It's so sweet.

No one can decide which one is cuter! One of our five sort of daughters took both pictures.  :D

Val is a very handsome man, and personality shines from his face.  He looks so happy!

Kathleen

He has looked like that since I met him 21 years ago. He has never said a cross word to me and has had plenty of good reason from time to time. All the nurses in our facility want to clone him. And Me, Too is as snippy as Val is sweet.  ;D

awww~he's very handsome indeed~I love hearing your stories~what a wonderful love you to have~

Louise, You are truly a remarkable woman!  :) :)

Here we all are!

(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc491/luisevolta/DSCF2688.jpg)

That is so sweet, Luise! So precious!

~what a good looken couple~ :)

Luise,

I love this photo and just kept looking at it.  It's a portrait of happy serenity.

Isn't this a true love story, and even more beautiful that you found each other in older age?

Beautiful couple, beautiful natural setting. 

So nice to know two people can look and be like this,

Kathleen

Oh, I love this picture!  Hmmm....and someone likes sweater vests   ;D

Thank you so much!  :D

Nice photo Luise! 

My ds likes to rescue dogs and she just got my step dad a Chihuahua named Buddy
since his former dog passed on.  Your hubby is handsome and what a disposition.

Me, Too is a rescued dog. He was a stray. Brought into the animal shelter sick, ribs all showing, fungus around the edge of his ears. Untrained. Liver failing. 15 months old. And now he's 15 years old!  :D :D :D

  Wow Luise! You are above all a survivor for sure. I am married with 3 adult children who really lead private lives away from my husband and I.  There are no grandchldren yet. I would love to receive a phone call or email but its not to be.  I have a niece that lived with us for a couple of years and she contacts us 2-3 times a year.I was a stay-at-home mom and thought I did right by them but apparently something was wrong with my approach. A daughter and son are both newly weds. They are both very touchy about anything said to them. I am on facebook , so I have learned not to make any comment regarding their friendships,their spouses comments or anything       concerning them. When I do comment about a visit we had there is never any response (except from 1 dil) she is a doll and so polite. I am putting this sad but true state of my non-relationship with my adult children  out here to see if there are others out there with the same story. I always thought people in my position were mean or weird or selfish. Some outstanding reason for not being close with your children.Sometimes like today the tears keep falling . Other days I feel stronger and more understanding.I am so grateful for this site. Now at least I can say whats really on my mind and read about how to handle these overwhelming days of sadness.Yes,I have to admit it.Now lately I can see my husband is also feeling sad about our kids not calling .I never thought we would be in this position. Its a little embarassing, a lot sad, makes me angry at times. I guess they have their own problems and I'll just have to wait and see if they ever come around to appreciating us.

We can only take our kids to the door of adulthood and then let go. In the process many of us have had to let go of our expectations of what we thought "extended family" looked like and meant. They move on, make their own choices and learn or don't learn. The ball is in their court. Our job is to create a full life again without them, if need be. We were whole and happy, focused and productive...before we had children and we can be again. It's easy to get stuck in asking what we did wrong. The answer is nothing. Nothing at all. Healing comes when we learn after all of this time of thinking of others first, to think of ourselves and what would make our hearts sing beyond parenting. Many of us have let go and moved on and healed. It's an option where it looks like we have none and peace and joy lie there. Blessings, Luise

Quote from: luise.volta on April 19, 2011, 01:02:20 PM
We can only take our kids to the door of adulthood and then let go. In the process many of us have had to let go of our expectations of what we thought "extended family" looked like and meant. They move on, make their own choices and learn or don't learn. The ball is in their court. Our job is to create a full life again without them, if need be. We were whole and happy, focused and productive...before we had children and we can be again. It's easy to get stuck in asking what we did wrong. The answer is nothing. Nothing at all. Healing comes when we learn after all of this time of thinking of others first, to think of ourselves and what would make our hearts sing beyond parenting. Many of u have let go and moved on and healed. It's an option where it looks like we have none and peace and joy lie there. Blessings, Luise

Perhaps some of the wisest words I've ever heard regarding parenting.  I know this was for all of us here and yet I felt as if you were speaking directly to me.  Thank you again for this amazing site. 

Quote from: luise.volta on April 19, 2011, 01:02:20 PM
We can only take our kids to the door of adulthood and then let go. In the process many of us have had to let go of our expectations of what we thought "extended family" looked like and meant. They move on, make their own choices and learn or don't learn. The ball is in their court. Our job is to create a full life again without them, if need be. We were whole and happy, focused and productive...before we had children and we can be again. It's easy to get stuck in asking what we did wrong. The answer is nothing. Nothing at all. Healing comes when we learn after all of this time of thinking of others first, to think of ourselves and what would make our hearts sing beyond parenting. Many of u have let go and moved on and healed. It's an option where it looks like we have none and peace and joy lie there. Blessings, Luise

Oh how we've missed you & your wise words, Luise...  I'm going to copy & post this on my refrigerator & bathroom mirror -- maybe even the rear view mirror of the car!  ;D ;D ;D

You guys are great!  :D

I loved this thread.  Luise....it is inner strength which keep us going.  I envy your unbreakable spirit.  Noone can take that from you. 


See I liked also about 5's.  I was born on 5-15-51.  Lots of fives.  I celebrate on May (month 5) my Birthday (May 15)  Anniversary (May 22) and Mother's Day.   So I do hope five is a good number.

Love to hear all your experiences....Maybe you should write an Autobiography or a book. 

Love

I admire Luise so much - I can't say enough good about her.  She just makes so much sense......even when things are messy and confusing.  And, Luise, I love the pictures you posted!
I want to welcome pcbd to our circle of wise friends.  If you have a hurting heart, you will get loads of support here.  I can relate to your feelings of rejection b/c my son has pushed me out of his life in a lot of ways.  I do see him on holidays along with 20-45 other people and four times a year for our combined family birthdays.  Occasionally I'll see him in between, but very seldom.  Now I have a gs to add to the hurt.  We have only been asked to babysit twice in his 9 months of life....the one time our dil put a stop to it by saying she didn't want to go out once she heard we were babysitting (our ds was trying to surprise her) and the other time was on a work night, 9:15 pm - 1:00 am - after he was put down for the night at their house.  Dil said he wouldn't be waking, but luckily, he did and we got to feed him his bottle, then we put him back to bed.  My dh had 4.5 hrs of sleep before getting up for work. Our dil's parents babysit for gs regularly.  I had a melt down a couple weeks ago.  It all caught up with me and I cried every day.....at work, at home, at dinner, during the night.  I only slept 1-3 hours a night for several days.  At first I broke down (just so you know, I am not a cryer - I can go years without shedding a tear) b/c I thought I didn't have a son any more and never did have a gs.....it was like I was grieving his death, and adding rejection to it.  But later, I realized that I truly think our dil is emotionally abusing our ds.   I made an appointment with a therapist, but had to wait a week to see her.  While I prepared for that appointment, I documented all that I could think of that led to this point.  It made me all the more aware that my ds is being manipulated and controlled by his wife.  I believe he's afraid of her.  I found out a couple more things about their relationship this week that I didn't know before which made it even clearer.....it's emotional blackmail.  I wonder if Luise's son and a lot of the other ds's mentioned on this sight are going through that, too.  I couldn't believe how things started adding up - I feel so sorry for my ds and I don't know how I can help b/c it would be interfering.  I'm not the right person to try to help him, but I did call him when he was on his way to work one day this week and told him that we are always here for him and love him.  I told him that if he ever needs us, we are family and no matter what, we will be here for him.  I told him that we all rallied around his sisters when they went through crisis and we would be there for him, too, if the need ever arises.  My dh had a talk with him this week, too, letting him know how much we love him and want him in our lives.  That and prayer are all we can do to help him at this point.  I also agree with what Luise said, we need to move on with our lives.  But I just had to let our ds know we are here for him b/c I really think he's very unhappy and under a great deal of stress.
Hugs, Hope

Hope

You can only do what you did.   Telling your son you love him and that he can count on you whenever he wants/needs.   You are great...and you son knows it. 

Love

Nana,
Thanks for your reinforcement.  I hit a hard bump, but I'm back in operation.  Our ds told my dh this week that all we need to do is call and ask to stop by and if they are available and the house is in order, we are welcome.  This week dh and I are both sick, so we're waiting till next week to put him to the test.  When I asked if we could see gs any time soon when he was 1.5 weeks old, my ds just said, "I don't know, Mom" in an exasperated tone.  Then I asked if I should call him to follow up or wait for him to call me and he said to wait for him to call me.  He did make a couple excuses for me to come over, which was nice, but  left me feeling like we have to sneak around just to visit.   Why do we have to have a reason to stop by other than to see our gs if that is the only way we will see him without a sea of other people?  They don't stop by our house to visit or ask us to babysit, so I felt unwelcome.  I didn't want to push them away further by pestering them.  Maybe I was wrong about that.......perhaps I should have been asking all along if we could stop by and see our little gs.  I know dil's mom spends the night there quite often and stops in any time she wants (we live the same distance away from them - only 15 minutes).  I was told by dil before the birth that she didn't want us to just stop by and not to call......which she changed when I questioned her to, "well, don't call 100 times a day" - as though I call her often.  I don't call her unless there's an emergency (which is maybe once a year).  Dil's parents also babysit him all the time.  We aren't any less grandparents, but we are treated like we aren't grandparents at all.  We have yet to receive a copy of his portrait, with the exception of one of him on Santa's lap.  I even asked for one for my birthday and it was a no go, even though he has his portrait taken regularly.  Our dil saw gs's portrait on my husband's phone screen and asked where he got it - in a disapproving tone.  He said he downloaded it from HER facebook.  After we parted, she posted on fb, "Someone is downloading pictures of gs - how can I stop them?"  As though my dh was a pervert or something.  I know I should feel sorry for her - she is very insecure and has a control problem.  Thanks for reading my rant.
Hugs, Hope

Hope

I am sorry this is happening.  I still dont understand categories.  First cand second class parents and first and second class grandparents.  That is what it is.  Dil's parents can babysit, come or call whenever because of course, they are dil's family.  What about the second class parent (dad) he doesnt have the same rights?  And this comes down to the second class grandparents.  It so disgusting.   But Dear Hope...it is how it is.  But remember, their rights end, where ours (grandparents) begin.  We can choose this kind of treatment or we dont, and will sure pay the consequences of what we opted for.   You are great and it should be flattering to dil that your husband downloaded HIS gc's picture from FB.  What is the wrong doing in it.  Guess she knows deep down, but have to find something to compain about. 

I was in your shoes too, believe me.  I cannot advice you to do what I did because it worked for me, but am not sure it will for you .  I put all my meat in the grill.... I gambled.  All or nothing, but I am a born gambler lol.  I opted out.  Talked to son and told him I couldnt take it any longer, that I loved him and my gc but that I was getting sick.  That no matter how much I tried....I was never permitted to be a real nana.   We both cried...and he agreed I was right.  It was only then when dil realized that I only wanted to help when they needed and that I loved them all.  Of couse I was not intruding, never visited, never called if it wasnt really necessary....never offered advice.    Now we all have a good relationship.   Now I babysit more than what I would like to.  LOL.
Dil and I respect each other.. still I dont ever go their house if not invited...eventhough they come every without asking lol.  I dont mind...I invite them dinner and whatever they want.  I works for me.
Faith...I am not a proud person that wants to have it my way....of course not.  I was even submissive to dil when trying to win her affection.  Nothing worked.  I was speaking to a very dear close friend and she said that we need to act with dignit...that her father used to say that we need dignity even to die.  So I went for it. 

Hope...I wish the best for you.

Love

Nana,
Thank you.  You are so strong and you make a lot of sense.  I agree - it does sound like you were in my shoes before you made the big move.  I just can't imagine my ds crying with me like yours did.  Although, dh said that ds's eyes started watering when he had a heart to heart with him this week and told him that we were concerned about his happiness and that we loved him very much and care about him and will always be here for him.  I hope that we will have the happy ending you are enjoying.  Like you, we have never offered any advice or invited ourselves over their house.  We are going to try out the offer to call and visit, though, since it was ds's idea.  If it fails, at least they can't accuse us of not trying to see him.
Hugs, Hope 

Hope, Reading what you typed broke my heart!! I'm sorry for your hurt and saddness.
I've never understood how a Man or Woman can be so close to their family and not understand their partner feeling the same way?
I hope things will improve since speaking with your son. God Bless!!

Hope,

I can't offer any advice but I know exactly what you're going through. Our DS has distanced himself from us even more. He doesn't call me everyday like he used to but once a week. He's very unhappy, he knows his wife is manipulating him but says he can't live without her and GD, that they are his life so we just have to learn to live with it. DS never put up with anything like this from any of his girlfriends so this behavior is so new to us but he's in love...

It's been 2 months since we've seen them and quite frankly I don't know when we'll see them again as he doesn't feel right about coming without DIL and she refuses to have anything to do with us, he also said that right now it's not a good idea to visit them.

We always ended our phone conversations with "I love you" and he doesn't say that to me anymore, he hangs up the phone before I've had a chance to say it to him. It hurts, but we must be strong and try to go on with our lives. No one knows what the future holds, maybe someday our sons will get tired, ours was very close to us before he met DIL, I know her goal is to destroy us for obvious reasons and she may just get her wish. I pray a lot and even though I wish things were different, I'm moving on, I still have some sad days but not like I used to. I lost both my parents that were so very dear to me and I thought I couldn't go on without them and I have, at least we know they're alive and living the lives that they chose.

Sincerely sorry Barbie that things have not improved.. you must be proud that he is standing by his child... hopefully time will allow changes.

As I sit here and read all these posts, about how so many MILs tip-toe around their sons and DILs, I find it very sad.  I love my son beyond anything and my gd is the light of my life - and frankly, I would absolutely LOVE to have a close relationship with my DIL.  That being said, I realize that she figures she already has a great relationship with her mother and doesn't want to have one with me.  Okay, I accept that.  Before the baby came along, she was even tolerable.  DS works about 15 minutes from our house and would stop by at times on the way home to see us and chat for a bit.  Now he's supposed to rush home to help her and she gets furious if he's late.  (Never mind that he has absolutely no control over the traffic and if there's an accident, duh, he will be delayed.)  Now that I'm going to watch gd (story is in another post here), she's making all these ridiculous rules.  So I'm pondering, do I give in now and let her walk all over me using gc as clubs to beat us into submission or do I draw the line here, set up boundaries and let the chips fall where they might?  Hubby is fed up and is about to tell her to take a long walk off a short pier.  I'm starting to get disgusted with son's behavior.  Example:  One of DIL's rules is that baby can't watch tv and we're not allowed to have the tv on when gd is around.  DS took baby over to show off to his aunt.  While they were chatting in the kitchen, someone turned on the tv in the living room and DS had a fit about it.  I think that was disgraceful.  It's one thing to control your environment in your own home, but quite another to dictate rules to someone else.  It was NOT going to kill the baby (who is 4 months old) to have the tv on for the short time he was there.  How many babies have grown up with background tv noise and lived to tell about it?  Ugh!!!!  I have to think carefully about this.  I don't want to push them away, but I refuse to be a doormat.  I think once I start down that road, it will be impossible to back up and take another position.

ST,

Was your DIL there when your DS had a fit about the TV? Perhaps it is his rule too. Many of my friends who are parents have shut off their TVs completely; while I don't adhere to it, it is quite common.

If you are going to ignore some of the rules put  forth, just  be sure not to get caught.  ;) I can't imagine the reaction that might happen if there was a stipulated list of rules that were being ignored if she is that controlling. You may want to be honest about what you intend to follow and what you don't. It avoids the idea that you were disregarding anyone's parenting techniques. Parents generally do have justification for the rules they establish, even if we don't agree.

I know how agonizing this is. Based on my own experience I'd say go ahead and give it a try but try not to get too attached to the baby which I know it's very hard to do, you still get to be with your GC and things may change for the better over time. I think the key is to realize they are the parents and they can take GC away any time they want but I think if you refuse to do it, it may be worse. Good luck!

Wow, ST....I don't think that would work for me.  It seems a bit unreasonable that there can't be a television on at all in the presence of DGC.  Now I understand programs with objectionable content (bad language, explosives, gunfire, etc..) But heck, can she not even watch Sesame Street?

I don't have any grandchildren, but if I even try to imagine them spending the weekend, knowing that I have been practically ordered not to have a television on the entire time they were there, I'd tell you this...they wouldn't be coming over very often.   It's not even that I can't live without TV.  It's just an absurd rule to demand that others enforce while in their own home.  What other rules does she come with?  I'm sorry but a gc that came with such strict rules would rob me of most of the joy of being with her.   I think you should set your boundaries now. Afterall, didn't you raise DS? 

My sister and her ex had different views on raising children.  As the mother she felt she was entitled to have hubby follow her rules.  Mind you, my nephew has special needs (cerebral Palsy, but smart as a whip and able to communicate very well).  Anyway, dad was not allowed to discipline this child, raise his voice, or punish him in way.  He wasn't allowed to take him anywhere. Every thing he did was "wrong" and he got reprimanded for it.  As a result he simply pulled away from him.  They never bonded. He didn't feel like a father to him because he was never allowed to act like a father. 

Our boys grandparents weren't given "rules".  We dropped them off and we picked them up.  We knew that during the in between time they would be loved and taken care of, just like they loved and took care of us. 

However, I must admit that there was one rule that sorta came into play unintentionally.  When middle son was about 3 he spent the weekend with my mom.  For the next week in a half he would wake us up in the early morning hours, scared and saying, "Chuckie. Chuckie's gonna get me".  We thought the little guy just had a nightmare and we'd put him in bed with us.  However, night after night it had begun to get annoying!  Hubby and I looked at each other and he asked, "Who let him watch Chuckie?"  I had no idea.  See, we raised the boys on TV but only kiddie, educational stuff.  We never let them watch scary movies.  Little did I know, but my mommy didn't know this.  So when I mentioned to her the "Chuckie" story she got kinda quiet and finally said it was her to let her watch it.  My nephew was there at the time and his mother let him watch anything. So when Andrew suggested they watch it so did my son.  We still laugh about that till this day!

Good luck with your situation. I hope the TV rule is the only one.

I don't get it either muffin.  I never gave grandparents "rules".  I would let them know if one of the boys was taking medicine or such, and how much...what time...etc.  That was it.

They did things different than me, of course...lol.  I wouldn't let the boys have "snacks" or "junk" unless they ate dinner first.  Then they could have what they wanted.  GPs let them eat all the "junk" and not much dinner.  I never said a word, because for the boys, that was part of the fun of going to the GPs.  To get to do little things like that, making them feel the GPs spoiled them.  I thought that was what GPs were for when I was raising my kids!  Lol.

They did things different than me, of course...lol.  I wouldn't let the boys have "snacks" or "junk" unless they ate dinner first.  Then they could have what they wanted.  GPs let them eat all the "junk" and not much dinner.  I never said a word, because for the boys, that was part of the fun of going to the GPs.  To get to do little things like that, making them feel the GPs spoiled them.  I thought that was what GPs were for when I was raising my kids!  Lol.
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Exactly the way I feel!  That was always part of the thrill of going to GP house.  They let you get away with stuff and spoiled you rotten!  I loved going to my grandmother's house.  She always kept yogurt and jello in the fridge and she made three layers cakes and she said "yes" to most of the things that mommy said "no" to. My GPs had free reign to discipline us as needed (although they never did) and when we were there THEY were the PARENTS, only they were GRAND!  They didn't walk on eggshells around us, afraid of what they should and should not do.   They just loved us and took care of us as GPs do.   It NEVER occurred to my mother to give her mother rules on parenting...Just seems ridiculous.

I remember my GM saying softly, "Ooops" when my Mom would give her the stink eye for something she let me do...Lol.  And I remember Mom shaking her head and never saying anything.

My GP let me drive his car when I was 12, back and forth in the driveway (My Mom would have killed him).  When I hit the fence post and dented the bumper one day, he just looked at me and said, "If your Mom asks, I did it...K?"  I agreed quickly and grinned.  Mom told me years later, she knew I had done it because we both looked guilty.

I loved going over there and I wish they were still alive so I could still go.

I love that story Pooh! Aren't GPs the greatest?  I lost my GD twenty years ago.  He was a master gardener.  I miss that little ole man so much!

Pooh and the Muffin,

I agree with both of you, that's the kind of stuff that GP's are supposed to do, it's the parent's job to discipline, GP's spoil, but we're not dealing with "normal" people. They won't leave our GD alone with us, God forbid I put a headband or pretty barrette on her hair, her hair has to be a mess because her mommy says so, now I brush her hair and do it in front of them and if they don't like it, then don't come, I'm getting used to it!

Life was much simpler when freeze tag was the game of choice and boys had cooties.  I truly miss those days.

Quote from: Pooh on April 21, 2011, 10:18:58 AM
Life was much simpler when freeze tag was the game of choice and boys had cooties.  I truly miss those days.

Ahhh yes....The good ole days. 

A grandparent's job is to spoil the GCs.  I truly believe that any DIL who thinks otherwise didn't get the appropriate attention from her grandparents.  She just doesn't understand the job.  Worse, she doesn't understand the importance that kind of relationship is for her child's emotional development.  By setting up rigid rules, she is stunting the growth of her children.  She will probably end up with kids who are a 'chip off the old block'.  Unfortunately, it will be off her dense block.

I totally agree muffin, I can't even imagine giving my mil rules when she use to watch my daughter. lol. I now watch my gs every day while my daughter goes to school and she has never said anything about rules.  She did once say you raised four kids , I have one so I think you know more than I do lol. 
To be honest I am looking forward to the day when he goes into daycare for a few days a week because this is hard work looking after a 18 month old. With all this child proofing my husband needs a manual to get to the knives and forks.  :) As far as the tv, we watch Mickey every morning from 6-7 am and I am thanking that rat with ears every morning while I drink my coffee lol.

I think I was overly spoiled by my GPs. I still am as a matter of fact. But, I do think my MIL's version of spoiling is SO over the top that it needs reigning in. No...babies aren't outside and awake until 3 a.m. on New Eve b/c "they like the lights." Babies don't get birthday parties where 100 people are on the guest list. There are a myriad of other examples, and my baby isn't even 1 yet.

Sometimes spoiling leads to complete excess...and for as much as I read that our children were raised with entitlement issues and such on here, doesn't anyone think that GPs can be over the top? Isn't it okay for a parent to step in and dictate what the rules are?

*Disclaimer: I do not think TV is spoiling to excess. I do not think junk food is spoiling to excess. Or, driving a manual up and down the driveway.

Quote from: Holly on April 21, 2011, 11:50:55 AM
I think I was overly spoiled by my GPs. I still am as a matter of fact. But, I do think my MIL's version of spoiling is SO over the top that it needs reigning in. No...babies aren't outside and awake until 3 a.m. on New Eve b/c "they like the lights." Babies don't get birthday parties where 100 people are on the guest list. There are a myriad of other examples, and my baby isn't even 1 yet.

Sometimes spoiling leads to complete excess...and for as much as I read that our children were raised with entitlement issues and such on here, doesn't anyone think that GPs can be over the top? Isn't it okay for a parent to step in and dictate what the rules are?

*Disclaimer: I do not think TV is spoiling to excess. I do not think junk food is spoiling to excess. Or, driving a manual up and down the driveway.

That's what I was thinking.  It's kind of odd b/c there are so many people that think our generation is spoiled, so what's the solution? 

Quote from: Sheen on April 21, 2011, 11:34:12 AM
I totally agree muffin, I can't even imagine giving my mil rules when she use to watch my daughter. lol. I now watch my gs every day while my daughter goes to school and she has never said anything about rules.  She did once say you raised four kids , I have one so I think you know more than I do lol. 
To be honest I am looking forward to the day when he goes into daycare for a few days a week because this is hard work looking after a 18 month old. With all this child proofing my husband needs a manual to get to the knives and forks.  :) As far as the tv, we watch Mickey every morning from 6-7 am and I am thanking that rat with ears every morning while I drink my coffee lol.

LOL, love your sense of humor.   :D

You guys are so great! Sending love...

Quote from: seasage on April 21, 2011, 11:30:20 AM
A grandparent's job is to spoil the GCs.  I truly believe that any DIL who thinks otherwise didn't get the appropriate attention from her grandparents.  She just doesn't understand the job.  Worse, she doesn't understand the importance that kind of relationship is for her child's emotional development.  By setting up rigid rules, she is stunting the growth of her children.  She will probably end up with kids who are a 'chip off the old block'.  Unfortunately, it will be off her dense block.

I just can't agree with that.  I did many special things with my grandparents, but there were lines that were not to be crossed.  My grandparents were respectful of that.  That's not to say they didn't do something my parents didn't like a time or two, but when they were called on it, it stopped.

Treats here and there...I don't mind.  Bending bedtime on overnights on the weekend, no problem.  But if I specifically say don't do something and it's done repeatedly...I'm not going to like that.   It's disrespectful to me as a parent, and I won't stand for it.

And, yes...I perfectly aware that I cannot dictate what anyone else does in their own house.  I might ask for certain things...like outlet plugs if you want to keep the kids...but I can't force anything.  I can control where my kids go, though.

To be honest, if someone were watching my child day in and day out...I'd have a lot more rules for them likely. It's  nothing personal, but daycares/gps/nannies/friends down the street that watch your child everyday have a major influence on things. I don't mind DD getting spoiled once in awhile, but it is usually only temporary...for a few hours or maybe a day. I think I'd have a list of rules too if a GP was to become the main caretaker for my child, no matter how well I turned out or how well DH turned out.

I think the difference is someone over indulging a child fully knowing that this FAR exceeds the child's everyday life vs being lovingly flexible.  Grandparent, aunts, uncles etc don't deserve a free reign with a child, yet the child's parents need not micromanage every aspect of their child's relationships and interaction with others. 

No. I agree...no micromanaging. I don't care if DD has 13 cookies at G-mas house. "Whatever."  ;)

I've seen what my GPs do to me, and what they do to my own DD. It would be like that 24/7 with them if I let it go on. Keeping the amount of time everyone spends with one another in perspective, though...it can't hurt once in awhile.

I still have my 3 rules (it was two...but...things changed):

1. Give DD space when she won't calm down.
2. No walkers.
3. NO PULLING HAIR. (My scalp hurts...A LOT).

I might add to that or it might actually get reduced once DD starts actually walking herself and rule #2 becomes obsolete. 2 and 3 are probably silly, but they are there for my sanity and consistency.

I see your point Holly, but I guess it would depend on the caretaker in question and how well you knew them.  I for sure would give a babysitter a list, but I can't imagine the need to give my mother one.   Note, I said "need".  My mother may indulge the kids more than me, but I knew she wouln't feed them candy for breakfast, or let them play outdoors unattended or stay up all hours of the night...etc.  My mother is a responsible person and I'm sure that she wouldn't go overboard with the spoiling if it was an everyday thing.

Oh, it definitely depends on the caretaker in question. I believe there are GPs out there that, since they consider it their job to spoil the GKs...if they were watching the GKs daily, they'd be spoiling them everyday. I tend to believe that if you are a caretaker on a daily basis; that comes first, before the role of GP.  To me, GPs are there for the special times, which is why spoiling has become synonymous with the role of GP in the first place. A caretaker needs to be a disciplinarian at times; and this is not something I expect my DD's GPs to do as they do not babysit.

I just think a GP watching a GK daily is not serving the role of GP as much as she is a caretaker. Each one of those denotes different behaviors...IMHO.

I always felt that a grandparents job was to love their grand kids as unconditionally as they loved their own.   I had a mil who's common sense never required that I question her or make demands.. she was loving, generous, fun, and firm.   I'm not real big on the spoiling aspect and it's funny to me that anyone would not see within their own issues involving their kids or their kids spouses that spoiling is not always a positive thing to do.  Becoming an emotional monster is not beneficial for the kids.

Quote from: Laurie on April 21, 2011, 01:45:50 PM
I always felt that a grandparents job was to love their grand kids as unconditionally as they loved their own.   I had a mil who's common sense never required that I question her or make demands.. she was loving, generous, fun, and firm.   I'm not real big on the spoiling aspect and it's funny to me that anyone would not see within their own issues involving their kids or their kids spouses that spoiling is not always a positive thing to do.  Becoming an emotional monster is not beneficial for the kids.

100% Agreed. I would prefer DD's GPs to do something other than spoil her, but since that is okay in most people's books, I suck it up and deal with the reality that most people feel that GPs are there for spoiling. For example, I came home from work today to open our 7th Easter package from one set of GPs. Guess what's in it? More Easter bunny stuffed animals. Woohoo! We are up to 17 now. What will we do with all this furry stuffed goodness?

And what would really be beneficial is a donation to her savings account so that when she is ready for college and the rates are beyond most families pay scales that she may have a chance to get through some of her higher education without going forever into debt.   But no.. these gp's are to self absorbed to think of her future, they want the bunny in her hand now. Next there will be a power play as to who's bunny she holds first.

Only one set of GPs has gotten her all of these bunnies. Who knows what the other set is doing; they could be handsewing some girlfriends for the bunnies I have here, or putting the money in a savings account.

It seems that some people just want DD to have more bunnies than she could ever possibly know what to do with.

Seriously, how can I NOT go to Goodwill now?

really.. your dd will have a false conception as to how bunnies mulitply

I think there is spoiling....and then there is spoiling....lol.  I think there is a big difference in common sense things you shouldn't let children do that a parent has to say "Umm...not so much" and letting your GC play in the water hose every once in a while.

I had to put my foot down with my MIL once over giving the boys medicine constantly.  If they sniffled or coughed once, she was shoving cold medicine down them.  She had done that to her kids, and to herself..so that was normal to her.  I had to finally tell her that we did not give the boys medicine unless they were truly, truly sick and that if she gave them one more teaspoon of anything...I wouldn't leave them alone with her.  She stopped.  But that is the only time I can ever think of her doing anything that I considered harmful.  Would I have let them have popcorn in bed at midnight?  Nope...but she liked to do that when they stayed.  No biggie and made them feel special.

Holly, I would so give my GD a small basket with one stuffed bunny, if I was seeing her...but more than that would be excessive.  Again, I agree it boils down to who you are dealing with and if you can trust them.  Both parties also have to be willing to not sweat the small stuff.

I know the bunnies aren't that big of a deal. I just get frustrated finding a spot for all of this stuff...and I do believe that if MIL were watching DD everyday, she'd be taken on shopping sprees and everything else. Plus, by her own admission, MIL is not a disciplinarian. She says that is not was GPs are for.

The medicine would be a big issue with me. I saw my SIL's mom giving my nieces pickle juice in lieu of their medicine. She was given instructions to give them the antibiotic. I just have no idea why anyone wouldn't follow a parents' instructions about medicine and supplements for their children. Especially with anitbiotics. I'm generally the last go give DD medicine if I can help it. The pink eye medicine was about all she has had. So, if I'm giving instructions for it, it MUST be important.

What an Amazing Thread.
One of the best I have read so far. Thank you to all you amazing ladys. Wise Woman Unite !!! AMEN!!!

The bunnies are not a big deal in their own right, but it does speak of over-indulgence (GP's part..not you).  Sneaking a piece of candy to a child to me is normal as a GP (providing no allergies or harm done) but I still wouldn't give them an entire bag of chocolate and let them eat it all at once.  Can you say tummy ache?  Buying them a small toy at the store when keeping them, sure.  And when I had GD, I did still discipline her too.  I believe you can spoil without being materialistic.  And I think you can be lenient, but still discipline.  And I do think as a GP when are responsible for walking that line.  I wouldn't let a GC jump on a bed, because I didn't let mine and I wouldn't want the parents to have to deal with jumping on theirs. 

In your situation, I think you asking people not to let her play with their hair because that has turned into her pulling yours, is a reasonable request.   I think since you explained it, it should have made sense.  I wouldn't have a problem with the parents asking me to not do something that didn't work for them.  I think asking instead of demanding, being reasonable and explaining go a long way with most people.  I also think it is a DILs, DDs, DS or SILs compromise to ignore the little things that aren't really hurting anything to give the GPs a little fun.  And I think its the GPs compromise to adhere to the things that are important to the parents, even if you don't agree with them.

I have more of an issue with the attitude of "I'm the parent so it's my way or no way".  But I have that issue with people in general, without any titles..Lol.

Yeah, the "its my way or no way" attitude doesn't seem to help in any situation in life. And, the delivery is key. A list of rules is probably not the best approach, but a discussion about it might get one further both in persuasion and scoring points.

The pulling hair probably never occurred to me until I was in pain! LOL.

I remember asking my Mom one time to please stop letting the baby play with her sunglasses.  Mom wasn't thinking, and forgot that I wore regular glasses and he started thinking those were free game too.  She was like, "Uh oh" grinned and didn't let him do it again.

Quote from: Kennedy on April 20, 2011, 04:57:02 PM
Hope, Reading what you typed broke my heart!! I'm sorry for your hurt and saddness.
I've never understood how a Man or Woman can be so close to their family and not understand their partner feeling the same way?
I hope things will improve since speaking with your son. God Bless!!

Thanks, Kennedy.  It helps to have the support of all you wonderful ladies!
Hugs, Hope

Quote from: Barbie on April 20, 2011, 05:26:48 PM
Hope,

I can't offer any advice but I know exactly what you're going through. Our DS has distanced himself from us even more. He doesn't call me everyday like he used to but once a week. He's very unhappy, he knows his wife is manipulating him but says he can't live without her and GD, that they are his life so we just have to learn to live with it. DS never put up with anything like this from any of his girlfriends so this behavior is so new to us but he's in love...

It's been 2 months since we've seen them and quite frankly I don't know when we'll see them again as he doesn't feel right about coming without DIL and she refuses to have anything to do with us, he also said that right now it's not a good idea to visit them.

We always ended our phone conversations with "I love you" and he doesn't say that to me anymore, he hangs up the phone before I've had a chance to say it to him. It hurts, but we must be strong and try to go on with our lives. No one knows what the future holds, maybe someday our sons will get tired, ours was very close to us before he met DIL, I know her goal is to destroy us for obvious reasons and she may just get her wish. I pray a lot and even though I wish things were different, I'm moving on, I still have some sad days but not like I used to. I lost both my parents that were so very dear to me and I thought I couldn't go on without them and I have, at least we know they're alive and living the lives that they chose.

Thanks, Barbie.  I'm glad to know that you have managed to move on for the most part.  I have a feeling your son will get his fill and finally get help or leave the marriage.  You were really close - talking all the time on the phone.  I'm shocked that you haven't seen him for two months.  It sounds terrible - but at least he's still calling.  It's tough, but as you said, we have to be strong and try to go on with our lives.
Hugs, Hope

Our gd has started reaching out for DH's glasses.  The other day he said he would get her a pair to play with - we both looked at each other and he said - oh, bad plan!  So there you go.  You have to say no sometimes! 

When my daugher was little I would always tell her that I would never ever do anything intentionally to hurt her.  The other day when she was here with gd I made some remark - kinda off the cuff - daughter says I know Mom, you would never intentionally hurt my baby!  So, she did remember one of her life's little lesson. 

Quote from: Holly on April 21, 2011, 03:12:55 PM
I know the bunnies aren't that big of a deal. I just get frustrated finding a spot for all of this stuff...and I do believe that if MIL were watching DD everyday, she'd be taken on shopping sprees and everything else. Plus, by her own admission, MIL is not a disciplinarian. She says that is not was GPs are for.

The medicine would be a big issue with me. I saw my SIL's mom giving my nieces pickle juice in lieu of their medicine. She was given instructions to give them the antibiotic. I just have no idea why anyone wouldn't follow a parents' instructions about medicine and supplements for their children. Especially with anitbiotics. I'm generally the last go give DD medicine if I can help it. The pink eye medicine was about all she has had. So, if I'm giving instructions for it, it MUST be important.

I think as a gp we would hopefully be responsible enough to expect respect from our gc and not teach them bad habits. I plan to follow our gc's parents rules to the best of my ability (but if the rules are unreasonable, I would have to question them).  I think it's great for gp's to be able to give their gc special treats - as long as they aren't promoting selfishness or tummy aches.  My mil was loved by all her 26 or so gc, and she always had popcicles, pudding, and such on hand.  She also had little favors for them and always remembered their birthdays, Easter, and Christmas with nice gifts.  My parents were more disciplinarians, but still cherished.  My dm was more likely to do fun activities with them, such as reading them stories, doing ceramics or playing games and working puzzles, whereas my mil mostly enjoyed giving them "food or things".  My dm would likely have homemade goodies - after the nutritional food was eaten.  Both sets of gp's were loved dearly and used common sense.  I have a pet peave about children bossing adults around - and it is a total turn off to me.  Don't think that's going to happen in my house.....that is, if I get to have gs in our home.  We have two married daughters who really want to have children, so we should eventually get the pleasure of being gp's.
Hugs, Hope

Two thoughts come to mind after reading,  there is a difference between gp's and caretakers, Yes caretakers get paid lol.,
its my way or no way  to this statement I would have to say, don't let the door hit you in the hinny     :)  I agree that if mom's rules are related to medicines or statements that are totally understandable such as the glasses, jumping on bed, running in the road or anything else that will cause harm to child or mom, then those rules should be followed. If the rules are just a list of things that make no sense then it is best for mom to find a caretaker elsewhere.
I totally believe if gp is full time caretaker then mom's rule for time outs, naps etc should be followed as long as they are not over the top and we can all keep our sanity. ;D

I imagine there are plenty of GPs that  get paid something for caretaking. I would not dream of leaving my mother or  MIL to change their lives to watch my kids daily without some sort of compensation, no matter how wonderful they may think their GKs are. Even then, should I allow the rules to be bent or completely ignored b/c I'm saving some money? I don't really think so.

I believe that for most reasonable people, the  rules are in place not so much for the GPs, but for the kids. That is why they should be followed; it's not some crazy attack to control GPs or due to insecurity. I believe if you think a rule is "silly" asking what it  means might go a long way. My MIL still thinks I'm an idiot for no walkers, but when all of Canada and some of the EU seems to agree with me, my pediatrician and daycare, at least she knows I didn't pull it from thin air to make her life miserable. The rule made some sort of sense. And, if you ask, the person might say "you know what? Forget about it."  ST's DIL has done that on disposable diapers and apparently even with having spectators in the delivery room. So, she must have some flexibility inside her...she can't completely be "my way or the highway."

I am also that spoiled rotten GK that when the parents said no, I knew the GPs would take care of it. The rule was "no TV in the bedroom." So, I asked G-ma, melted her heart and she came in with TWO TVs, one for me and one for DB. The examples are  endless. My parents were put in a very uncomfortable situation where they either appeared ungrateful and got no use out of an expensive gift, or they adjusted their rules. My GPs were wrong. Their spoiling undermined my parents' authority constantly.

I also believe it starts early. How is my DD ever supposed to appreciate stuffed animals as a nice thoughtful gift when before she comprehends what they are...she has 17 of them? I am just a little afraid of that "entitlement" monster that we all seem to speak of. Or is entitlement not really as big of an issue as we all thought it was?

Well, everyone, life turned out okay.  DIL is going to go back to what we originally agreed on, 2 days a week, at my house.  I have no problem with 98% of her rules, because they totally make sense.  However, the rule about absolutely no tv on in the house went out the window when DS found DIL with the tv on in the living room, and she was feeding baby in the nursery.  (OOOOpppppssss!!)  So hubby will be able to come home from work and watch tv for his usual hour, then it's off again.  I will be playing with my beautiful granddaughter at the time in another room.

For all her quirks, I firmly believe that DIL knows how we both feel about the baby and she knows we will give her the best care and love ever at our house.  She's certainly had no problem during the time she's been off work staying home with the baby calling us and having us run down and watch baby when she's had errands to run, or vice versa, dropping her off here so that we can watch her.  I've made it a point to thank her for allowing us the time to spend with gd.

Keeping my fingers crossed that all will go well.  Thank you all for your comments, I've enjoyed them all.  I've learned a lot too!

ST, I'm so glad for you and your family. I'm also glad that you hung in here even when the comments, some not so gentle, were flying. I think at times things got a little rough on you here, but you handled it all like a champ. Enjoy your GD! 

Quote from: Pen on April 22, 2011, 07:36:39 PM
ST, I'm so glad for you and your family. I'm also glad that you hung in here even when the comments, some not so gentle, were flying. I think at times things got a little rough on you here, but you handled it all like a champ. Enjoy your GD!

Thanks Pen!  I chalked those up as coming from inexperienced DILs.  The whole point of this place is to try and learn a different perspective, offer advice, give sympathy, send support, etc., but I don't think they were budging from the "MIL is the ogre" scenario.  Things are never black and white and there's always room for compromise, or at least there was in our situation. 

ST,

I was one of the DILs talking to you. Pardon me if I feel that "inexperienced DILs" is a blanket statement and unwarranted at that. I worded all of my posts to you very carefully. If some people were curt with you it has nothing to do with their inexperience but rather their lack of tact.

I do not think my MIL is an ogre; I really can't even think of one that is. We try really hard not to make generalizations here. I believe you picked up on that someone was projecting their feelings about their MIL onto you today, and it wasn't very nice. The same goes for generalizations.

No one is 100% reasonable 100% of the time. I realize you were just venting today, and I tried to defend it, but it didn't appear to be very reasonable to me, particularly when your son was in the midst of working it out with his wife. You said that it was her way or the highway, and then went onto explain that EVERYONE breaks her silly rules. Clearly, your DS has a bit more say in that marriage and parentage than you thought. He went to bat for you today, I hope you recognize that. Not only that, but she compromised WITH him. That is huge, and most MILs here do not have that luxury.  It sounds like DIL is quite comfortable with his 50% of the parenting rights for HER child (which despite any argument to the contrary, your GD is still her child...none of us ever said it was ONLY her child).

I think perspective would help your situation.

You will be babysitting this child at least 2 x a week: at least 3 MILs I  know on here have never babysat at all; some have not even met their GKs. 
Your DIL thanked you for babysitting: it's not too often I read on here that DILs are thanking people.
Your DIL felt one way about something (diapers) and then changed her mind. That speaks of flexibility, although she may not verbalize it.
Your DIL (whether gracefully or indignantly) reached a compromise with your DS about rules that needed some tweaking. She sounds like a pretty mature adult to me, even though 2% of her rules were ridiculous for about 15 minutes.
Your DIL did invite you over for dinner, despite it being subpar and in a messy house. I can think of another 3 women on here that have never been invited over to their DS's house. I can also think of one that has been invited, but guess what? When she was, she had to do the cooking!

Seriously, while some DILs on here might believe that MILs are ogres, you're initial description of your DIL was about equal to ogre (narcisstic), when it turns out that not only were her TWO rules over the top, but your venting was too. Your DS seems quite capable of talking reason into his wife. While that says a lot about him, it says a lot about her too. Not everyone on here is that lucky, despite the fact that their sons are every bit as wonderful as yours is.

But, that's just my inexperience talking. Sorry.

In the book a DIL on this site recommended as a good read, Toxic In Laws, by Susan Forward, it states that it is everyone's basic right to be respected.  No matter if we do have the upperhand b/c we can cut off mil/fil from their ds/gc with some persuasion, we should always remember that respect comes first.  Everyone's basic right is to be respected.  It's no less wrong than a boss who has power over their subordinates to threaten them with their job if they don't do unreasonable things, such as in the movie, "The Devil Wears Parada", where the assistant is doing the boss's kids' science fair projects and such.  There is no law stating that a wife's family is more important than a husband's.  And a grandparent is an equal grandparent, be it maternal or paternal (even if they aren't treated as such).  And a child's parents are equally the child's parent - mother and father.  I'm not asking that we use a measuring stick on everything, but it would be respectful to honor each family's traditions equally and give both families our valuable time.  Just something to think about......
Hugs, hope

Quote from: stilltryen on April 22, 2011, 08:07:57 PM

Quote from: Pen on April 22, 2011, 07:36:39 PM
ST, I'm so glad for you and your family. I'm also glad that you hung in here even when the comments, some not so gentle, were flying. I think at times things got a little rough on you here, but you handled it all like a champ. Enjoy your GD!

Thanks Pen!  I chalked those up as coming from inexperienced DILs.  The whole point of this place is to try and learn a different perspective, offer advice, give sympathy, send support, etc., but I don't think they were budging from the "MIL is the ogre" scenario.  Things are never black and white and there's always room for compromise, or at least there was in our situation.

Hey ST, it took me a minute to realize you just wanted to vent -- which is ok.  It might help us all if we communicate that up front in our posts, I've had to tell other posters that I'm not up for nit-picking at this time lol, worked for me.  It's hard to read other people online so maybe we all can just let the others know we want to get a vent off of our chest.

Quote from: stilltryen on April 22, 2011, 08:07:57 PM

Thanks Pen!  I chalked those up as coming from inexperienced DILs.  The whole point of this place is to try and learn a different perspective, offer advice, give sympathy, send support, etc., but I don't think they were budging from the "MIL is the ogre" scenario.  Things are never black and white and there's always room for compromise, or at least there was in our situation.

I am a mil who is very disappointed to see such a blanketed statement towards members on this forum.. To call out the DIL's and label them as "inexperience" was not necessary or productive. 

Good for you ST, you got everything worked out for the time being.  Keep in mind that many of these women have taken a part of their day to understand and try to help you with a situation, just to be told in the end that you really never valued their input from the start.  Worse then that, some heard that you do not value them as forum members either as they are only "inexperienced DIL's" ..  This dismissal of what I feel are valued opinions possibly drives home how you view your own dil.

Every member here has the option to vent when she feels the need.. but once you've done so on this board your vent is now open for discussion. That is how these forums work... it might be more productive if you want to vent without input that you keep it private and personal between yourself and MS Word.

Quote from: Laurie on April 23, 2011, 08:55:40 AM

Quote from: stilltryen on April 22, 2011, 08:07:57 PM

Thanks Pen!  I chalked those up as coming from inexperienced DILs.  The whole point of this place is to try and learn a different perspective, offer advice, give sympathy, send support, etc., but I don't think they were budging from the "MIL is the ogre" scenario.  Things are never black and white and there's always room for compromise, or at least there was in our situation.

I am a mil who is very disappointed to see such a blanketed statement towards members on this forum.. To call out the DIL's and label them as "inexperience" was not necessary or productive. 

Good for you ST, you got everything worked out for the time being.  Keep in mind that many of these women have taken a part of their day to understand and try to help you with a situation, just to be told in the end that you really never valued their input from the start.  Worse then that, some heard that you do not value them as forum members either as they are only "inexperienced DIL's" ..  This dismissal of what I feel are valued opinions possibly drives home how you view your own dil.

Laurie....Ill be the person to step up and thank you for that part of the comment.  The comment made me cringe a little bit, too.  Perhaps I took it personal, but I don't think of myself as inexperienced.  I'm a woman in my 40's who has been with my husband for 23 years. 

Welcome Glitter... I think people seem to forget that those who choose to carry the dil title alone are often mature women who have worked hard on their educations, and jobs.  Some of these dil's have children.. multiples in some cases and understand fully what the possible reasoning is by any parent who is leaving their children in someones care.  We are here to interact and work on issues not dismiss half of our membership based on a title.

We gotta watch those generalizations! Yup, we do. Sending love...

Laurie, much appreciated.

Some posts were a bit rough on ST, though. We all need to watch how we address each other.

ST's comment about "inexperienced DILs" made me cringe, just as the comment "Is he five?" and other sarcastic posts made me cringe. Come on, MILs & DILs, we can do better!

In a recent Ben Stiller movie ("Greenberg") the main female character says "Hurt people hurt people." How true. Many of us here are in pain, so perhaps we can be a bit more compassionate to one another.

My approach towards Sassydi was equal to my approach towards ST.   

Yes some of the postings were becoming harsh as ST had turned into yeah-but kind of gal.  I have heard this term.  Counselors use the term to describe people who every time you make a suggestion they keep saying   "yeah_but "  This seems to often become the method of communication here and ST has every right to approach it in this manner but it does tend to frustrate the general board as people can not always tell if she is not hearing, doesn't care, or can't comprehend.

I'm a big believer in compassion.. the case here, she was asking for compassion in an area that many felt she was wrong.. That's not compassion, the op was trying to shore up her own belief system and empower herself to carry on.  Maybe I'm the only one who saw it this way.. could be my bad .. but the total dismissal of all opinions of any dil I felt shored it up in my mind as to where ST was heading.. Once again as always.. this is solely IMO

I guess since I'm not a licensed counselor I don't feel qualified to judge another poster's motives. All I can offer is an ear, a shoulder and perhaps encouragement. If I don't feel like offering those things I don't reply. I'd rather not pass judgement on someone I don't know, even when I too get a feeling that she's spinning her wheels. It's possible to express non-judgemental support for a person without supporting their behavior and their resistance to progress, I believe. Letting them know they are heard and valued as a person may give them the motivation to do something positive to get out of their "yeah-but" rut. Some people respond better to kindness rather than the proverbial 2 X 4 upside the head. IMHO.

I tend to need the 2 X 4 on occasion, but it's only effective if it's from people who know me well and are coming from a place of love, but that's just me. We're all unique and what doesn't work for one might work for another.

Pen to me, no real issues came up until ST dismissed all DIL's .... None of us are licensed and I did not mean to imply that.. yeah but is probably not a clinical term to begin with, just an observation of someones approach. 

I'm really happy that things have worked out for ST... I hope that she can accept the views from the other side as well and prevent future damaging conflicts that she may encounter with her own dil/ds/gc for her own happiness and wellbeing.  My qualm was I don't know if ST ever wanted any input that could conflict with her own reasoning... as she stated in the later posting, she really didn't.  I think some negative vibes could have been avoided from the beginning

Plenty of the posters that offered non-judgemental support were DILs; several were 100% supportive (even of behavior) until more facts kept coming out, I believe myself included. Those of us that did offer that kind of support were, for the most part, ignored. There are 9 pages of responses to that post, and only 2 are out of line. The rest of the posters don't need a bad wrap for being judgemental when they really weren't.

I, a DIL, even asked one poster what she meant by her response, albeit poorly, and I certainly would have asked the second about hers had I caught it (I did not even see it until you pointed it out AND I see that it's actually been addressed by a moderator). 'm not sure that my posts were so much judgemental as much as they were just the point of view of a DIL, and thus to be disregarded as nonsense.

Most of us tried really hard to nicely appeal to ST's interests; we didn't consider her position as a MIL as being particularly relevant when we wholeheartedly agreed that DIL was asking too much. We took the titles out of it and looked at the issue fairly and gave her many, many options she could use, that guess what? Would normally work from the standpoint of  a DIL.

It would have been nice to have received the same treatment back. Instead, we wound up having to defend a stupid silly title that (I'm not sure about the rest of the DILs) I don't put on my resume and don't use to introduce myself.  Personally, I regard the advice I get on here from MILs as an asset I can put in my arsenal; not something that is basically trash b/c well "she's a MIL...(insert whatever annoying stereotype here)." It would be nice to be regarded with the same feelings, despite what any real life DIL might be doing to make life miserable. I know that is tough to do, but it's a challenge I've found pretty darn invigorating to try to attain. 

I feel that regardless of whether the titles of dil/mil are left out of the equation or not, most of us arrived at WWU due to extremes in our own circumstances.  That's why it's all the more important to take an understanding approach.  The majority do.  I'd just like to say it's greatly appreciated.

Absolutely, Rose.

Even without the titles , it takes time for two people to get to know each other , and just because they are going to be family
doesn't mean they are going to get along .
Maybe we should ignore the titles .There is so much expectation from both sides , that one or both can be disappointed .
I wonder if two ladies just meeting would expect the same outcome of their friendship , I doubt it .
For instance my two boys were born 2 years apart , in the earlier years they were great buddies .
As the years went on , they found they have nothing in common but the fact that they are brothers . Granted they
live miles apart , and when we all meet we are a family . When asked to be best man at his younger brothers wedding he replied
''but I don't know him '' ! So being related doesn't necessarily mean  bosom buddies .
also I hate that ''in law '' title , kinda gets the hackles up before you start any kind of anything !
Haven't really got a solution to an alternative name .
Respect for each other's position in the family is important I think .
Talking about GP's treats for the GK's in another thread .I never offer any kind of food without mom's permission .
That's why we now get along , I always refer to the Mom  about anything that involves my GD. I respect that
my F/DIL is number one , quite rightly so .
In turn I am shown respect as a GM ....took a while to get to this point , but I'm so glad we made it .

does this relate to this thread ??  think I'm losing it again ....lol

LL, I think you're right. Laurie had a really good point about being introduced as DS's mom. I don't think I've had the chance to introduce MIL to anyone, but I'm thinking of refering to her as DHM on here now to see how it goes. It might take the sting out of some things.

Unfortunately, this thread got hijacked long ago. It has morphed into something entirely different. I think many of these posts belong on another board for continuity...Hope, Barbie and Nana were having a nice pleasant conversation over here.

Sorry ladies.  :(

Holly, thanks for pointing that out. I just went back and read that conversation and it broke my heart. The thread did morph there, unfortunately. Hope, Barbie and Nana, I'm sorry you're dealing with such painful situations. It's gut wrenching, devastating to feel such a loss. The concept of mind control is interesting; I've said before that IMHO it's sort of like a charismatic cult leader has taken over sometimes. It's supposedly a sign of abuse when a DH does it to his wife; what do we call it when a DW does the same to her husband?

All a FOO can do is what you & your DH did, Hope. Best wishes.

I'm sorry to be off post as part of the hijack, but wanted to mention something.
-
I've noticed (not always) but  pattern when a  post goes on and on and on and the entire community
is involved trying to help someone , and the "yeah but"  is going on  it often turns out in a way less than
ideal.  I've seen this happen where at the end, the person, a mil just up and left the forum.
I couldn't believe it after all our  effort that went into trying to support the person.   

I think we should keep an eye out for these long posts and be mindful that they may be going nowhere
and in end people can feel dismissed like happened here and has happened before.  I had to stop looking at it after awhile.  I
remembered what Luise said about if you don't like what is happening on a post move on.  I also feel that
its hard when we can't see peoples faces and expressions and hear their voice tones its difficult to get a good read.  Somepeople
can seem smug and/or defensive but if you are in person with them, you might chuckle as you have a more accurate read, if you know what I mean.     And one final question
If we are really being asked to to be skillful and mindful here on WWU  then are we really hear to rant endlessly? 
It doesn't seem compatible  with the values of this forum.   IMHO

 you are absolutely right, Tara. I get too wrapped up in this sometimes. I need to be more mindful of that.

Quote from: Tara on April 23, 2011, 04:13:35 PM
I'm sorry to be off post as part of the hijack, but wanted to mention something.
-
I've noticed (not always) but  pattern when a  post goes on and on and on and the entire community
is involved trying to help someone , and the "yeah but"  is going on  it often turns out in a way less than
ideal.  I've seen this happen where at the end, the person, a mil just up and left the forum.
I couldn't believe it after all our  effort that went into trying to support the person.   

I think we should keep an eye out for these long posts and be mindful that they may be going nowhere
and in end people can feel dismissed like happened here and has happened before.  I had to stop looking at it after awhile.  I
remembered what Luise said about if you don't like what is happening on a post move on.  I also feel that
its hard when we can't see peoples faces and expressions and hear their voice tones its difficult to get a good read.  Some people can seem smug and/or defensive but if you are in person with them, you might chuckle as you have a more accurate read, if you know what I mean.     And one final question
If we are really being asked to to be skillful and mindful here on WWU  then are we really hear to rant endlessly? 
It doesn't seem compatible  with the values of this forum.   IMHO

I agree with this ^^

Take what you want and leave the rest. Make sense?