hello people. well, we were able to muster through the last holiday of a family member. so feeble and weak. just sad. :'( :'( :'( i wept all the way home. but, i will remember and think of her for all her greatness and love she had in this world, i will speak of her legacy, not her end. :)
my ds and dil said at first they had a function to go to on dil foo, but they lied. my dd came to our family event with news that her db had called saying they were shopping in her neighborhood and would like to go to her restaurant for a meal. (free)my dd said no, she was headed to our event, to see her dg for the last time, and why weren't they coming. ds responded, "i know, tried to get her (dil) to go, she wants to shop"
i cant believe my son would shut out his family like that. i know for a fact dil has threatened him before, and i believe she is again now. (leaving with the baby) or, maybe he cant handle death? seeing a family member in the latter part of their life? i know how hard it is believe me. i used to deal with it on a daily basis. plus, all of my kin, except for my father, has died as well. i still am just reeling...............how someone can be so cold.
and for shopping.??!!.................... how cold....................i am appalled :-X :-X :-X :'(
Quote from: erma on November 08, 2010, 03:03:27 PM
hello people. well, we were able to muster through the last holiday of a family member. so feeble and weak. just sad. :'( :'( :'( i wept all the way home. but, i will remember and think of her for all her greatness and love she had in this world, i will speak of her legacy, not her end. :)
my ds and dil said at first they had a function to go to on dil foo, but they lied. my dd came to our family event with news that her db had called saying they were shopping in her neighborhood and would like to go to her restaurant for a meal. (free)my dd said no, she was headed to our event, to see her dg for the last time, and why weren't they coming. ds responded, "i know, tried to get her (dil) to go, she wants to shop"
i cant believe my son would shut out his family like that. i know for a fact dil has threatened him before, and i believe she is again now. (leaving with the baby) or, maybe he cant handle death? seeing a family member in the latter part of their life? i know how hard it is believe me. i used to deal with it on a daily basis. plus, all of my kin, except for my father, has died as well. i still am just reeling...............how someone can be so cold. and for shopping.??!!.................... how cold....................i am appalled :-X :-X :-X :'(
That is a very sad situation you are in. All your emotions at this time, and ds/dil won't see the family member for the last time. Try to put them out of your mind. Yes your son might not be able to handle death but dil shopping!!! and ds going with her!!! Unforgivable in my books, downright selfish. I don't buy the can't handle death excuse..he could be their for you all and wait outside, or sit somewhere quitely to show his respects. All I could do in that situation is stay away from them until you can accept what you ds has done he has to live with his decision not to go, he might speak to you about it one day. Good luck
It's sad when a bargain at the mall trumps a life. How dumb was he to call his sister, did he forget or was he wanting the information to get back to you.. If this was my son, I'd let him know in no uncertain terms that you have no time or respect for liars... good thing grandma didn't have to know this.
Really sorry Erma, I'm really happy your daughter was there for you.
Quote from: erma on November 08, 2010, 03:03:27 PM
hello people. well, we were able to muster through the last holiday of a family member. so feeble and weak. just sad. :'( :'( :'( i wept all the way home. but, i will remember and think of her for all her greatness and love she had in this world, i will speak of her legacy, not her end. :)
my ds and dil said at first they had a function to go to on dil foo, but they lied. my dd came to our family event with news that her db had called saying they were shopping in her neighborhood and would like to go to her restaurant for a meal. (free)my dd said no, she was headed to our event, to see her dg for the last time, and why weren't they coming. ds responded, "i know, tried to get her (dil) to go, she wants to shop"
i cant believe my son would shut out his family like that. i know for a fact dil has threatened him before, and i believe she is again now. (leaving with the baby) or, maybe he cant handle death? seeing a family member in the latter part of their life? i know how hard it is believe me. i used to deal with it on a daily basis. plus, all of my kin, except for my father, has died as well. i still am just reeling...............how someone can be so cold.
and for shopping.??!!.................... how cold....................i am appalled :-X :-X :-X :'(
Dear Erma,
I know what you are talking about. It is one of the hardest things to understand. Some younger people (mine) will only do what they want to do. It doesn't matter what is dear to you, someone dying, a loved one ill, they will do what they want and it doesn't matter the consequences. They were often raised without consequences and also, "please yourself first". (I think this is one of the most detrimental things ever done to our society; living for youself only. It's a shame.
I agree. Sending love...
Quote from: Laurie on November 08, 2010, 03:39:11 PM
It's sad when a bargain at the mall trumps a life. How dumb was he to call his sister, did he forget or was he wanting the information to get back to you.. If this was my son, I'd let him know in no uncertain terms that you have no time or respect for liars... good thing grandma didn't have to know this.
Really sorry Erma, I'm really happy your daughter was there for you.
Laurie,
I wish!!! Oh, I wish you could come live inside my personality and speak for me!! If I said anything to my son about his not showing up, etc., his wife would chew me out and she can be as vicious as you have ever heard. Her parting words have always been, "don't tell (her husband) a single word she said".
Of course I can't tell her husband what she said to me because I'd never see them again.
Erma, I'm sorry your DS and DIL behaved that way. How rude, cold, and hurtful to you and other family members. Your daughter sounds as if her priorities aren't selfish, thank goodness. Please take care of yourself during this difficult time.
Sorry, I have to call baloney on this. Your DIL could not go shopping without her DH? Baloney. We all know how much "fun" it is shopping with a man. Not so much.
Your DS didn't go see his dying relative because he didn't WANT to go. This is completely at his feet. If he WANTED to go, nothing could have stopped him.
If he thought he might lose his children, that might do it.
Quote: "...i cant believe my son would shut out his family like that. i know for a fact dil has threatened him before, and i believe she is again now. (leaving with the baby)..."
yanno Erma, I blame your son here on this one....if she wanted to go shopping and has no regard for supporting family, fine...however, you son didn't need to go shopping with her, he should have been there...and that is his fault, period....
My heart goes out to you and so so sorry for your loss....
big tight hugs
Creme
Quote from: cremebrulee on November 09, 2010, 06:14:03 AM
yanno Erma, I blame your son here on this one....if she wanted to go shopping and has no regard for supporting family, fine...however, you son didn't need to go shopping with her, he should have been there...and that is his fault, period....
My heart goes out to you and so so sorry for your loss....
big tight hugs
Creme
They are equally to blame. Would you honestly shop at all if your husband's loved one was dying? This is total self-centeredness in every way. Son and DIL
I'm with BT, equally to blame. DS for not taking a stand, and DIL for putting him in that position. If DIL is using the children as weapons to control him, then understandable DS wouldn't want to upset the apple cart, but he should not lie about it.
Erma, I know this was very hard on you, but you handled everything very gracefully. Big hugs.
I am so sorry Erma. This is a tough thing to go through.
But, I call baloney, too. She can leave him with the kid, but she cannot keep the kid from him. The law does protect both parents. I know divorce would be tough, but it could be workable. My brother never married the mother of his child, and even though they live in a Southern state which gives the mother whatever she wants, the mother was not able to keep DB's son from him, and the judge warned her that she would lose custody if she poisoned the boy against DB. And, your DIL will not be able to move out of state without permission from the court, which is tough to get. So, all it would take would be for him to call her bluff once, for him to see a lawyer and that would be the last time she threatened with that. IF, this is the case, and you don't know that it is, then he needs to grow a pair. IF your DS wanted to be there, he would have.
Quite frankly, I would have resented being commanded to appear. If I were going to say good bye to someone I was close to, I would want to do it alone and for my benefit and the person's benefit, not not to make everyone else feel OK about it. That would have more meaning for me than a command performance. I am not saying this is how you meant any pressure for him to come, but it could be how it was taken. So, back off on the disapproval because all it will do is drive them even further away. It is not for you to throw blame around. He chose not to do something you wanted him to do, big deal, so what? This is not in any way about you. Also, your DS's relationship with this person and when the last time he sees this person is none of your business. He is a big boy now, it is up to him to make these decisions and to deal with the consequences.
Quote from: justus on November 09, 2010, 07:20:03 AM
I am so sorry Erma. This is a tough thing to go through.
But, I call baloney, too. She can leave him with the kid, but she cannot keep the kid from him. The law does protect both parents. I know divorce would be tough, but it could be workable. My brother never married the mother of his child, and even though they live in a Southern state which gives the mother whatever she wants, the mother was not able to keep DB's son from him, and the judge warned her that she would lose custody if she poisoned the boy against DB. And, your DIL will not be able to move out of state without permission from the court, which is tough to get. So, all it would take would be for him to call her bluff once, for him to see a lawyer and that would be the last time she threatened with that. IF, this is the case, and you don't know that it is, then he needs to grow a pair. IF your DS wanted to be there, he would have.
Quite frankly, I would have resented being commanded to appear. If I were going to say good bye to someone I was close to, I would want to do it alone and for my benefit and the person's benefit, not not to make everyone else feel OK about it. That would have more meaning for me than a command performance. I am not saying this is how you meant any pressure for him to come, but it could be how it was taken. So, back off on the disapproval because all it will do is drive them even further away. It is not for you to throw blame around. He chose not to do something you wanted him to do, big deal, so what? This is not in any way about you. Also, your DS's relationship with this person and when the last time he sees this person is none of your business. He is a big boy now, it is up to him to make these decisions and to deal with the consequences.
See, this is what I mean..."big deal? Resenting being commanded?" We don't understand this language. His loved one was dying. This thinking makes me feel defeated about our society.
Quote from: barelythere on November 09, 2010, 06:40:53 AM
Quote from: cremebrulee on November 09, 2010, 06:14:03 AM
yanno Erma, I blame your son here on this one....if she wanted to go shopping and has no regard for supporting family, fine...however, you son didn't need to go shopping with her, he should have been there...and that is his fault, period....
My heart goes out to you and so so sorry for your loss....
big tight hugs
Creme
They are equally to blame. Would you honestly shop at all if your husband's loved one was dying? This is total self-centeredness in every way. Son and DIL
Yes, under normal circimstances they would be equally to blame, however, like most of you, Erma's DIL has a history of purposely excluding Erma's family from her schedule, and cutting them out...therefore, it is up to son to say to her, we're going or, if your not going I'm going...however, yes, she surely should have been there, I agree....I'm just saying....under the circumstances...which in my mind, doesn't exclude her one iota....
I could see where she was going with that BT. We do tend to do this to ourselves. He was invited, he didn't come. The "big deal" justus was referring to was that Erma has no control over what he does, that is on him. And in the end, he will be the one that suffers for it. Him not showing was no reflection on Erma. She issued the invite and let him know about it. What he chose to do was in his court. Not that Erma wasn't entitled to being upset that he didn't come and lied about it, but in the end, she did her part.
I have learned through experience that people deal with death in different ways. A friend's husband left her when their young child was dying of a brain cancer. The psychologist said it wasn't that unusual. Some people just can't face death. They handle it by escaping the situation.
I can't say whether or not this applies to your DS. And I admit that it doesn't sound good. Shopping, really!! But maybe, for this event only, withhold judgment.
Quote from: Pooh on November 09, 2010, 07:34:45 AM
I could see where she was going with that BT. We do tend to do this to ourselves. He was invited, he didn't come. The "big deal" justus was referring to was that Erma has no control over what he does, that is on him. And in the end, he will be the one that suffers for it. Him not showing was no reflection on Erma. She issued the invite and let him know about it. What he chose to do was in his court. Not that Erma wasn't entitled to being upset that he didn't come and lied about it, but in the end, she did her part.
It makes me want to bawl for Erma. This makes me sick.
Quote from: Anna on November 09, 2010, 07:38:11 AM
Quote from: erma on November 08, 2010, 03:03:27 PM
hello people. well, we were able to muster through the last holiday of a family member. so feeble and weak. just sad. :'( :'( :'( i wept all the way home. but, i will remember and think of her for all her greatness and love she had in this world, i will speak of her legacy, not her end. :)
my ds and dil said at first they had a function to go to on dil foo, but they lied. my dd came to our family event with news that her db had called saying they were shopping in her neighborhood and would like to go to her restaurant for a meal. (free)my dd said no, she was headed to our event, to see her dg for the last time, and why weren't they coming. ds responded, "i know, tried to get her (dil) to go, she wants to shop"
i cant believe my son would shut out his family like that. i know for a fact dil has threatened him before, and i believe she is again now. (leaving with the baby) or, maybe he cant handle death? seeing a family member in the latter part of their life? i know how hard it is believe me. i used to deal with it on a daily basis. plus, all of my kin, except for my father, has died as well. i still am just reeling...............how someone can be so cold.
and for shopping.??!!.................... how cold....................i am appalled :-X :-X :-X :'(
Something similar happened to us with our ds & dil. We had relatives, from very far away pop in unexpectly, I called my ods, my yds, my siblings, my neices & my parents. Everyone was able to take off work, & make it over to visit, except my ds & dil. They were shopping, had to go right by our house on there way home, but we were told, "what, we're just supposed to drop everything cause _____ stopped by". Everyone else was at work, (except my parents), & they all managed to take time off work to stop in As a result of that decision these relatives have never met my gc, & may never get to meet them. I was deeply hurt. This is my son, he knows how much these relatives mean to me, & how little we see them cause they live so far away. All this happened a couple of years ago, but the memory brings back all the hurt. Cold & uncaring. On the upside, I think that now ds & dil would do everything in their power to stop by if this ever happens again. There is always hope!! :) (((((hugs))))) Anna.
They don't do anything they don't want to do. Mine included. They wouldn't come here when my os and wife came..they waited all day long for them. It broke my heart. I wish I had never had kids.
Quote from: Anna on November 09, 2010, 08:02:29 AM
Wouldn't it be nice if some of our children could learn to put someone else & their feelings ahead of their own? My generation was called the me generation, but I think most of my children' generation, are the me, me, me generation. Does that mean that most of our gc's generation wil be the me, me, me, me, me, me generation? Yikes!!
Yes, the new kids will adopt the pattern and God help us. I was not brought up to put myself first. We were our brother's keepers. Right or wrong, we were there for others. Just breaks my heart.
BT, what I mean is that while Erma has a right to be upset about being lied to, it is silly, yes, silly to be upset over something she cannot control. Is she upset because her DS didn't come and how that reflects on her, or is she upset for the dying relative? She has no business being upset for the relative. Did the relative even notice his absence? If she did, then it is up to her to talk to Erma's DS and let him know about. It is between the relative and Erma's son, not her. If she is upset about him not showing up and how that reflects on her, well, then Erma may need to be a little less worried about appearances.
We all falsely assume that what is important to us is important to our children, that if we are invested in something particular happening, then our children will be, too. This is a false assumption, and it is why we get so hurt and upset over things like this. The assumption is ours, and it is our fault that we are upset. Erma was invested in her DS attending, this was not important to him and so he didn't. He is a grown man and he makes these decisions for himself according to what is important to him. We raise our children knowing that one day we have to let them go, but it still comes as a shock when we find out that they have grown up and become independent thinkers whose values and opinions differ dramatically from ours and then we get upset because they do differ, because we did our jobs well. Erma did job well, so she should stop with the expectations because she will only be hurt again and again and that is her choice.
I am not sure who you are speaking of when you say, "WE". BT, I have had two MILs. One was horrible, and the current one is deeply flawed and can be a problem if we let her, but we get along quite well. I look back at my relationship with my first MIL and know now how I could have dealt with her more productively, but what did I know when I was 18? I have three children aged 26, 23, and 21. I am a MIL and a GM. I am pretty sure we are of the same generation. I reject that there is some sort of generational wide misunderstanding here. Certainly, there are cultural misunderstandings, but we are all people and I think we are all smart enough to figure out what boundaries are. From what I have read, this DIL/MIL thing has been going on ever since humans came into existence and the nature of the problems have not changed.
We all need to be aware of how we might be coming off to our children and DILs. If we are strong, we might come off as pushy, if we don't approve, they will see that in our every word and move, if we use quilt by making ourselves the victims, they will feel victimized. We have a lot more power than we realize and we need to be aware of how what we say might be taken. In the end, we are the only ones we can control. We also have to keep in mind that they are just kids working through what it is be an adult. It takes time.
Also, I know people from our generation who put themselves first all the time even though they were raised differently. I don't think it is a generational thing, but a human thing. It is easy to blow off these problems by saying it is cultural or how they were raised. Heck we all heard, "Kids these days," said with a shaking head when we were kids. Now we are doing it and it is just as silly a saying.
good morning people. i so wanted to converse yesterday, in stead i was admittedly disgusted with dis and dil's behavior. i just turned it all off sat it the hot tub with a glass of wine and tried not to think. today i read all of your posts, thank you ladies. its not about them, its not about me either. its about GM. your right, i did my part. however i do believe when he called his sister, he was looking to get her ear. we (me and dd) believe he was trying to communicate his situation to her without upsetting dil. meaning, ds and dil would show up at my dd's restaurant, he would explain, she would "explain" to me. so, yes Laurie, i do think that was ds's intention. didn't work that way however. i have not heard a word from ds since we arrived home Monday.
i truly don't know how my ds feels about death, however, before dil came along, when his GF died, he had no problem. he was very close to him. he understands how permanent it is. now, the lying thing? that's new to me, from my ds. as a child, he never lied to me. even as he grew into adulthood, he would say to me, "not gonna tell ya mom, love you too much, so don't ask" and i didn't. that motto continues today, i don't ask he doesn't tell, unless he wants too. but lying?? really?? that's a first, that i know of anyway.
I'm not going to even try to figure this out anymore. its too unnerving. (I'm using the SNAP method) ok, on with it............................. :P
thank you ladies
Erma,
My condolences--I am sorry for what you are going through. I too read all the posts under this topic.
What strikes me once again is that we have these conflicting expectations. There are certain things that many of us think are reasonable expectations in any given situation. There are others who simply don't see it as reasonable at all. Is it reasonable for someone to value seeing a dying CLOSE relative one last time over a shopping trip that can be done any time? Personally, I think that expectation is reasonable. Is it reasonable for a mother to be hurt when she is lied to by her DS (especially when it is something new)? I think it is. I for one get hung up on expectations every time. But without expectations for what is loving behavior versus unloving behavior--how do we go through life? I for one need to be able to expect some loving behavior once in a while.
QuoteBT, what I mean is that while Erma has a right to be upset about being lied to, it is silly, yes, silly to be upset over something she cannot control. Is she upset because her DS didn't come and how that reflects on her, or is she upset for the dying relative? She has no business being upset for the relative. Did the relative even notice his absence? If she did, then it is up to her to talk to Erma's DS and let him know about. It is between the relative and Erma's son, not her. If she is upset about him not showing up and how that reflects on her, well, then Erma may need to be a little less worried about appearances.
for heavens sake, no business? really? so does that mean all family is not your business? i don't think coming to the bedside of a dying family member constitutes a "business appearance"
QuoteWe all falsely assume that what is important to us is important to our children, that if we are invested in something particular happening, then our children will be, too. This is a false assumption, and it is why we get so hurt and upset over things like this. The assumption is ours, and it is our fault that we are upset. Erma was invested in her DS attending, this was not important to him and so he didn't. He is a grown man and he makes these decisions for himself according to what is important to him. We raise our children knowing that one day we have to let them go, but it still comes as a shock when we find out that they have grown up and become independent thinkers whose values and opinions differ dramatically from ours and then we get upset because they do differ, because we did our jobs well. Erma did job well, so she should stop with the expectations because she will only be hurt again and again and that is her choice
.
this is a generalized statement, not all of us falsely assume
Quote
QuoteWe all need to be aware of how we might be coming off to our children and DILs. If we are strong, we might come off as pushy, if we don't approve, they will see that in our every word and move, if we use quilt by making ourselves the victims, they will feel victimized. We have a lot more power than we realize and we need to be aware of how what we say might be taken. In the end, we are the only ones we can control. We also have to keep in mind that they are just kids working through what it is be an adult. It takes time.
nope, don't agree. my children are grown adults, not kids. their old enough to go to war for their country, their old enough to deal with "pushy, don't approve, feeling victimized" what ever.
Also, I know people from our generation who put themselves first all the time even though they were raised differently. I don't think it is a generational thing, but a human thing. It is easy to blow off these problems by saying it is cultural or how they were raised. Heck we all heard, "Kids these days," said with a shaking head when we were kids. Now we are doing it and it is just as silly a saying.
i believe in the generation gap. my parents had it, i have it, but that doesn't excuse rude behavior problems.
justice, i think its just vicious people verses, docile people, good/evil, giver/taker, humble/narcissistic, what ever you wanna call it, the difference is real.
and thats what im trying to get a grip on here, is the other side. that doesnt mean im going to agree with it, i don't have to. until we work through things, it just "is what it is"
I understand not wanting to deal with tough stuff. I can always think of something I'd rather do than make a family "duty call." But as an adult, I choose to be compassionate and kind. It's one day out of my life but means the world to others. What's the big deal? I suck it up and attend!
And when I'm the one on the way out, I hope my DS, DIL & GC can spare a moment or two. Good grief (so to speak)!
Quote from: justus on November 09, 2010, 08:24:30 AM
BT, what I mean is that while Erma has a right to be upset about being lied to, it is silly, yes, silly to be upset over something she cannot control. Is she upset because her DS didn't come and how that reflects on her, or is she upset for the dying relative? She has no business being upset for the relative. Did the relative even notice his absence? If she did, then it is up to her to talk to Erma's DS and let him know about. It is between the relative and Erma's son, not her. If she is upset about him not showing up and how that reflects on her, well, then Erma may need to be a little less worried about appearances.
We all falsely assume that what is important to us is important to our children, that if we are invested in something particular happening, then our children will be, too. This is a false assumption, and it is why we get so hurt and upset over things like this. The assumption is ours, and it is our fault that we are upset. Erma was invested in her DS attending, this was not important to him and so he didn't. He is a grown man and he makes these decisions for himself according to what is important to him. We raise our children knowing that one day we have to let them go, but it still comes as a shock when we find out that they have grown up and become independent thinkers whose values and opinions differ dramatically from ours and then we get upset because they do differ, because we did our jobs well. Erma did job well, so she should stop with the expectations because she will only be hurt again and again and that is her choice.
I am not sure who you are speaking of when you say, "WE". BT, I have had two MILs. One was horrible, and the current one is deeply flawed and can be a problem if we let her, but we get along quite well. I look back at my relationship with my first MIL and know now how I could have dealt with her more productively, but what did I know when I was 18? I have three children aged 26, 23, and 21. I am a MIL and a GM. I am pretty sure we are of the same generation. I reject that there is some sort of generational wide misunderstanding here. Certainly, there are cultural misunderstandings, but we are all people and I think we are all smart enough to figure out what boundaries are. From what I have read, this DIL/MIL thing has been going on ever since humans came into existence and the nature of the problems have not changed.
We all need to be aware of how we might be coming off to our children and DILs. If we are strong, we might come off as pushy, if we don't approve, they will see that in our every word and move, if we use quilt by making ourselves the victims, they will feel victimized. We have a lot more power than we realize and we need to be aware of how what we say might be taken. In the end, we are the only ones we can control. We also have to keep in mind that they are just kids working through what it is be an adult. It takes time.
Also, I know people from our generation who put themselves first all the time even though they were raised differently. I don't think it is a generational thing, but a human thing. It is easy to blow off these problems by saying it is cultural or how they were raised. Heck we all heard, "Kids these days," said with a shaking head when we were kids. Now we are doing it and it is just as silly a saying.
Very well put Justus!
This situation isn't new. The ostrich invented it.
thank you, all of you! love the ostrich luise...................