Hi Guys,
It's funny, I was just watching one of my favorite movies "He's Just Not That Into You". It was also a bestseller. Anywho, the movie is about how women complicate relationships in trying to understanding why men won't committ/why he didn't call/why they treat women they way they do... But the answer was simple, "he's just not into you"...
I thought about this concept and how it relates to MIL/DIL relationships. Could our problem as MILs/DILs be that we are complicating a situation that is really very simple. Wondering why someone is so distant, why they don't call, why they don't visit for the holidays. Maybe its not b/c she's a bad person. Maybe, just maybe...She's not that into you. After all just b/c she loves your son doesn't mean she wants to be your BFF. Just because that's your husband mom doesn't mean she wants to be your BFF.
It reminds me of my younger days when I worked at a retail store. One of the older employees whom had been there for years complained on me to management saying that I never speak to her when I enter the room... I was flabbergasted when the manager told me of her complaint. I'd seen this older woman many times before, but just didn't think anything of her...Not that I was trying to be rude, I guess I just didn't care. It never crossed my mind however, that I could be offending her...
I love being a women, but sometimes I really do believe we complicate things. Some of us can be too emotional. How often do we hear FILs complain that their SILs don't call enough, don't bring the GCs by for a visit. How often do you hear a SIL complain about FIL giving unwanted advice or coming over too often. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be considerate of each other, but as long as DS, DH, GCs are happy then whats the problem???
What do you guys think??
Speaking just for myself, the problem isn't that I want to be DIL's BFF (yikes!) but that her disregard (or not "being into" me) affects my relationship w/DS. Frankly, I'm not that into her either. I just want to feel comfortable around my DS again, and I want DIL & her FOO to honor our family's bond.
What you said about not acknowledging the older work colleague is very telling. As I age I find myself being invisible more & more every year. My DIL has said on several occasions that she hates old people. Sad state of our society if our older people aren't being valued.
As Jim Morrison of The Doors said so long ago, "No one here gets out alive." Young people will age too; how they treat others may well determine how they are treated. It's called karma, grasshopper.
QuoteWhat you said about not acknowledging the older work colleague is very telling. As I age I find myself being invisible more & more every year.
I so agree. Sometimes I wonder if I'm even a "person" any more. Mother's Day is coming - my one DIL will remember but my sons or grandchildren won't. I've thought about "forgetting" them on their birthdays or other holidays but, for some reason, I just can't. I guess I don't want them to feel as badly as I do. However, as I get older and more invisible and of less and less value, I find that I just don't care as much or try as much as I used to. Perhaps the pain of being ignored and forgotten gradually has a numbing effect. Maybe I'm beginning to think of "me" and not them. Whatever .....
No, no, no. Sure there are plenty of women who expect closeness to which they don't have a right -- my biggest complaint about women is that often they automatically assume intimacy that hasn't been earned, telling me personal things, embarrassing things the first time we talk. But saying hello to someone when you walk in the room isn't about that. It's about acknowledging that the other person is a human being and not a piece of furniture. You don't have to want to hang out with someone, but how hard is it to look her (or him) in the face and smile and say, "Hi, how are you?"
Besides, if you're in the same family you're going to have to spend time with these people whether you particularly fancy them or not, unless you get to the very sad point of having to cut them off completely or being cut off yourself. We could probably all work harder on cultivating a pleasant demeanor for people who aren't our cup of tea, and learning the art of making a little danged small talk. It wouldn't kill any of us to step outside our comfort zone a few times a year and learn to be interested in someone else for fifteen or twenty minutes.
My take is that the past two or three generations have created a very passive-aggressive society. We can't (most of us can't) come out and tell someone what's eating us, but we can't bring ourselves to be kind and thoughtful, either. We spend our lives furtively chewing away at each other and denying we're doing it. Or just ignoring people out of existence because we don't happen to find them interesting. That really hurts them, and that's not a woman thing -- it's a human thing.
And it's natural for women to want to see their grandchildren. They may go about it in destructive ways that undermine the desire, but I see nothing odd, unreasonable, or particularly womanish about wanting your children to bring the family over now and then.
Quote from: Vasilisa on May 05, 2012, 05:18:05 AM
No, no, no. Sure there are plenty of women who expect closeness to which they don't have a right -- my biggest complaint about women is that often they automatically assume intimacy that hasn't been earned, telling me personal things, embarrassing things the first time we talk. But saying hello to someone when you walk in the room isn't about that. It's about acknowledging that the other person is a human being and not a piece of furniture. You don't have to want to hang out with someone, but how hard is it to look her (or him) in the face and smile and say, "Hi, how are you?"
Besides, if you're in the same family you're going to have to spend time with these people whether you particularly fancy them or not, unless you get to the very sad point of having to cut them off completely or being cut off yourself. We could probably all work harder on cultivating a pleasant demeanor for people who aren't our cup of tea, and learning the art of making a little danged small talk. It wouldn't kill any of us to step outside our comfort zone a few times a year and learn to be interested in someone else for fifteen or twenty minutes.
My take is that the past two or three generations have created a very passive-aggressive society. We can't (most of us can't) come out and tell someone what's eating us, but we can't bring ourselves to be kind and thoughtful, either. We spend our lives furtively chewing away at each other and denying we're doing it. Or just ignoring people out of existence because we don't happen to find them interesting. That really hurts them, and that's not a woman thing -- it's a human thing.
And it's natural for women to want to see their grandchildren. They may go about it in destructive ways that undermine the desire, but I see nothing odd, unreasonable, or particularly womanish about wanting your children to bring the family over now and then.
Thanks for your response but, I'm not sure you understood my point.
The coworker example was about me offending someone without meaning to. That probably happens to many of us. So the point I was trying to make was that sometimes we get offended by another person when they had no idea, or no intentions of offending us at all. I know someone who says hello everytime she steps in a room, doctors office, elevator, what have you... But not everyone is like that. It doesn't necessarily mean they're trying to offend someone. Also, I could have just as easily got offended by the older women who didn't speak to me when I entered the room. But, I just didn't care. Another point of that story is what bothers some people might not bother another. I really do believe that can be applied to MIL/DIL relationships.
"He's Not That Into" is not a movie about how he could be nicer, more respectful, more polite; How he could be a better boyfriend/husband, how he should acknowledge her more; how he should have called her last night, how he would feel if a woman did that to him. It's about stop waisting your time trying to psychoanalyze things and just accept the situation for what it is (b/c you can't change it anyway). "He's Not That Into You" so move on.
To that end, my point was sometimes MILs/DILs have these expectations form each other that aren't going to be met if the other doesn't feel that same way. I'm not saying its right/wrong, I'm not even saying its easy to accept. I'm saying sometimes you have to accept people for who they are. If they don't want to call you, visit you, or spend holidays with you; Sure it hurts, and we could analyize it to the cows come home. But at the end, if they don't want to be with you, I'm not sure what else you can do but move on. Its just easier said than done.
In terms of the GC, of course people want to see them from time to time. Never said it was odd, unreasonable, or womanish. Please reread my original post.
It would have been better for me for DIL to have stated that she wasn't into being part of DS FOO in the beginning. It would have spared a lot of feelings all around.
Exactly Pen!
I think this happens frequently in the problematic in law relationships. One side never intended to have a relationship from the start. Either they had this attitude no matter what or a first impression led them to think that way. I also think our society has placed a lot of burden on females to carry the load when it's no longer the reality, most females don't have the time to carry all the emotional and social loads. This makes the MIL/DIL relationship extra fragile, depending on what side both women are on.
But lovelymimi, you didn't say anything in your original post about how people offend others without having any idea. You specifically offered the possibility that women do -- or, more often, don't do -- certain things because they just aren't interested in their in-laws.
I assume you agree that there are some behaviors that should be basic to every adult whether she is interested in or likes someone or not. Regarding the example you gave from your own past, I think it is childish for an employee to complain to her manager that one of her coworkers doesn't say hello to her, but I do believe acknowledging people we work with (or near) is part of polite behavior. Most of us have probably needed to have things like that pointed out to us at one time or another, usually when we're young. Some people of both sexes unfortunately make it into their mid-twenties and beyond without having learned some of the basics, and this can cause pain and anger when they gain new relatives through marriage and the basics are repeatedly ignored.
Again, it wouldn't kill any of us to muster up a few minutes of interest in someone who lives outside our comfort zone once in a while. We can still have our own likes and dislikes and make friends as we please.
Vasalisa, I agree about mustering up a few minutes of interest for those we ordinarily wouldn't seek out. When it became apparent our DD was disabled, my DF & his wife dropped us like a hot potato. They have never been able to handle people who aren't geniuses. DDD is amazing, but they will never know.
Quote from: Pen on May 05, 2012, 08:36:26 AM
Vasalisa, I agree about mustering up a few minutes of interest for those we ordinarily wouldn't seek out. When it became apparent our DD was disabled, my DF & his wife dropped us like a hot potato. They have never been able to handle people who aren't geniuses. DDD is amazing, but they will never know.
As I've said before, I don't understand GPs not being interested in their GC. How painful for you, your husband and daughter.
I try to think of family as an opportunity to see the value in people we wouldn't have chosen to make friends with. Sounds good, but obviously some of us have problems living it out and that's why we're here.
Lovelymimi, I hope you don't think I'm picking on you or saying you must be an inconsiderate person to ask this question. I'm not, I just want to unpack your suggestion a bit and look at possible implications.
I truely believe that DIL started out wanting a relationship with me. We went shopping a few times and had lunch when she and DS were engaged. She invited me to come along with her when she went to pick out a puppy after they were first married. I thought those one on one times went well. Apparently she didn't. I guess I wasn't the kind of person she liked. I wasn't the MIL of her dreams. I was me. After a few years she stopped trying. I made the mistake of waiting to be invited as I didn't want to be a pest. So perhaps it was my fault. I also believe that I made the mistake of really not relating to her as another adult woman, but as I related to my son.... as my child. BIG MISTAKE. In my and most MILs defense... we never were MILs before, and we were in the learning process also. It's a shame that she didn't come to me and talk about her feelings. Instead the festered and grew way out of proportion until as I said in the other thread... the message board postings were completely exaggerated and overblown. There apparently was nothing I did or said that wasn't offensive. Unfortunately, I think that 12 years later...we are way past any sort of reconciliation or meeting at common ground. I am simply not that important to her. It is not important to her that any holidays or events include me. It is not important to her if I see my son or Gks. So she really isn't at all into me. Had I read the signs early on.. it just may not be like this.
Quote from: Vasilisa on May 05, 2012, 08:25:15 AM
But lovelymimi, you didn't say anything in your original post about how people offend others without having any idea. You specifically offered the possibility that women do -- or, more often, don't do -- certain things because they just aren't interested in their in-laws.
I assume you agree that there are some behaviors that should be basic to every adult whether she is interested in or likes someone or not. Regarding the example you gave from your own past, I think it is childish for an employee to complain to her manager that one of her coworkers doesn't say hello to her, but I do believe acknowledging people we work with (or near) is part of polite behavior. Most of us have probably needed to have things like that pointed out to us at one time or another, usually when we're young. Some people of both sexes unfortunately make it into their mid-twenties and beyond without having learned some of the basics, and this can cause pain and anger when they gain new relatives through marriage and the basics are repeatedly ignored.
Again, it wouldn't kill any of us to muster up a few minutes of interest in someone who lives outside our comfort zone once in a while. We can still have our own likes and dislikes and make friends as we please.
Well put!!
Quote from: Lillycache on May 05, 2012, 08:45:46 AM
I truely believe that DIL started out wanting a relationship with me. We went shopping a few times and had lunch when she and DS were engaged. She invited me to come along with her when she went to pick out a puppy after they were first married. I thought those one on one times went well. Apparently she didn't. I guess I wasn't the kind of person she liked. I wasn't the MIL of her dreams. I was me. After a few years she stopped trying. I made the mistake of waiting to be invited as I didn't want to be a pest. So perhaps it was my fault. I also believe that I made the mistake of really not relating to her as another adult woman, but as I related to my son.... as my child. BIG MISTAKE. In my and most MILs defense... we never were MILs before, and we were in the learning process also. It's a shame that she didn't come to me and talk about her feelings. Instead the festered and grew way out of proportion until as I said in the other thread... the message board postings were completely exaggerated and overblown. There apparently was nothing I did or said that wasn't offensive. Unfortunately, I think that 12 years later...we are way past any sort of reconciliation or meeting at common ground. I am simply not that important to her. It is not important to her that any holidays or events include me. It is not important to her if I see my son or Gks. So she really isn't at all into me. Had I read the signs early on.. it just may not be like this.
So true about the necessity of relating to your DIL as another adult woman. I was 31 when I met my future MIL. She never stopped treating me like a rebellious teenager and it was very frustrating.
Are you sure that you aren't important to your DIL, that you don't matter anymore? Because if that were really true, she wouldn't be writing about you on message boards. I write about my MIL on this message board because her behavior still hurts; if she really no longer mattered to me, I'd be, I dunno, writing poetry or something of lasting value instead. This is just me, but if my MIL could convince me that she really cared about me and my husband and child and was willing to do anything within reason to work things out, I would be grateful for that opportunity. Granted that at this point it would be hard for her to convince me of her sincerity -- I would still like things to be different.
Quote from: Lillycache on May 05, 2012, 08:45:46 AM
I am simply not that important to her. It is not important to her that any holidays or events include me. It is not important to her if I see my son or Gks. So she really isn't at all into me. Had I read the signs early on.. it just may not be like this.
This makes me kind of sad :(
I've never been through the feeling of a family member not being into me but something like that. I had a dear friend who I had been friends with for over half my life. We became friends in elementary and our friendship lasted until after we graduated college. She was a good friend, but around the high school years I noticed that whenever she got a boyfriend she would 'kick me to the curb'. Then when they broke up she would magically reappear.
After college, she met a guy, they got married, then she was gone for good. She stopped calling me, and visiting me all together. Now I understand as a mom and wife that when you marry you don't have as much time for friends as you once did, but I wasn't expecting to be cut off COMPLETLY. I could understand if we had an argument or a falling out, but none of those things happened. She just wasn't' that into me anymore. After months of not hearing from her, of course I called her to talk about it, she gave me the famous excuse that she didn't call me cause she was "busy". That was the last I heard from her, its been nine years.... Maybe she's still busy...LOL
Though it hurt me at the time (I even cried about it) I had to realize that I needed to move on, I couldn't make her be my friend. I'm also glad I moved on. Since then I've made new friends and have a family of my own. I realize that moving on is harder to do when it comes to family, but I really do think the principles are the same.
Sounds as though it wasn't so much that she wasn't into you as that she wasn't into relationships with women. Some girls are like that as soon as the hormones kick in.
This could be the problem with my MIL and I. I'm the one who's 'just not that into her'. She used to want to be BFF, like her daughter and her are. But I have my own Mom, 2 Sisters & 3 Nieces - Our own group of girlies. I was always viewed as the 'outsider' as I didn't want to participate in 'girl activies' like painting my nails, doing my make-up, shopping, talking about boys and such. I'm totally a tom-boy and I love sports, farm work, getting dirty and anything that my Hubby is in to (hunting, fishing, camping). I think my MIL feels like I should want or need to be her BFF, but honestly I don't care enough to build that relationship, because she has already hurt me so badly in the past 3 years. At this point we won't have any kind of relationship at all and that is coming from my Hubby, not me.
Well guess what I'm just not that into my DIL either. The same personality traits that set me teeth on edge during the dating period are still in full force today. I have tried until I'm blue in the face to treat them both equally, until it dawned on me ..why? She, like you make it really clear, I"m an in-law, not her family and she could really care less. So why do I only deal with them as a unit? spend exactly the same amount for Christmas and Birthday gifts, try to make that extra effort?
Bleech, if her attitude didn't cinch it, your post sealed it. I will deal with MY FAMILY now and concentrate my efforts there.
The sad thing is DS is waking up to reality, a day late sure but it's coming.
The reality is that most of the contact I have had over the with DS and the GKs has been orchestrated by DIL. SHE has been the social planner. All of the Christmas gifts, birthday and Mothers Day cards and gift were the result of her, despite the fact that she has hated doing it. NOW that she is pretty much out of the picture for me and DS is in charge of making the effort... guess what.. NO Christmas gift, no birthday card... and I am sure there will be no recognition on Mothers Day. Perhaps a brief phone call.. but no card... no little token (like a potted petunia) Nothing. I have no illusions about my son. He is self centered and selfish. So the fact remains.. without DIL, I loose out on a lot. Of course this is not about monetary and material things... but you have to admit it's nice to know that DS would take the time to remember you with a token, no matter how small. Most times... having a son is nothing like having a daughter. Women are much more thoughtful and men don't see the big deal. I know my son, and he feels that just by showing up with the kids every couple of months is all the effort he needs to make. He thinks phoning me every 3 or 4 weeks is sufficient. I guess I should be happy for what I have because I know many here don't even get that.. and I am... but I cannot help but feel I am usually an afterthought. Am I making sense? Or coming off materialistic and whiney.... which is not my intent.
Lilly, that's the dilemma we face. If we don't speak up our needs aren't known & we're wimpy martyrs. If we do speak up we're materialistic & demanding. I haven't figured out which is better, so I continue to be a wimp and cry a lot which is not my usual personality at all - I'm the girl who speaks up about unfairness & injustice in most other situations! Unequal pay for equal work? I'm there! Unfair budget cuts that affect DDD? Hand me a picket sign! DS not acknowledging my big life event? Oh, that's OK, I know you've got a lot going on, blah blah blah.
TMB, what's funny in my situation is that the first holiday after DIL said she hated us (see my boring previous posts for bg) I asked DS what she might like for a gift. He actually told us she didn't deserve anything from us & not to spend our hard-earned money on her. Of course I couldn't have her sitting at Christmas w/o a gift to open from us now, could I? Awwk-waard! So I took the high road & spent on her what I spent on DS & DD. Now I've set a precedent and she thinks we're suckers.
But seriously, other than not seeing DS at Christmas so as not to have that awkward gift/no gift moment, what could I have done? I hate this weird relationship stuff. Christmas (& all the other events) used to be fun. Now I dread them.
In light of DS/DIL's most recent brush off, I feel with every passing event they are letting us know we are being shoved farther and farther into the background. It really, really hurts...I didn't do a thing to cause this (according to DIL) but I feel as if I'm being punished for having been a loving, involved, supportive mom. Sometimes I wish I could have those years (not to mention the money I spent) back, lol. To paraphrase Dr. Seuss, "Oh the things I could have done!"
It's not just the Holiday or special event recognition that we miss out on. It's the day to day interaction that the family.. particularly the mother of the DIL has. My DIL made a point to rub it in my face that she talks to her mom daily... sometimes several times. My son calls me ever 3-4 weeks. These calls are superficial. I don't hear about what the kids are doing on a day to day basis.. I might hear about a major event.. but not the things mom of DIL gets to be a part of. Like how GS did on his spelling test, or how he hit a homer in little league. I don't hear about my GDs tummyache or how she sold the most cookies in Girl Scouts. ( I'm making these things up because I have no idea what I've missed). These are things FAMILY know about.. and I'm not family according to DIL. My Son is oblivious to my needs and to my hurt. If I tell him, I will only be another problem or obligation in his eyes. Maybe he doesn't even know about all the things his MIL gets to hear about and I don't. We are often told to accept our role and get a life. I HAVE a life.. I have a career, I have hobbies, I have causes and interests. (I too have been an activist and marched in DC several times for women's causes) I think I am a pretty interesting woman with a lot to offer, I have a lot to impart on the GKs.. If only it was valued and wanted. I have sat back and waited for it to be requested... out of concern of being seen intrusive.. Now I'm relegated to the "unimportant" list.
Exactly! Love your post. "Get a life." Ha, love it.
Re: the things we "unimportant" MILs/GPs miss out on - when we eventually do get together it's like casual acquaintances rather than close-knit family. When we miss out on the fun, silly little things as well as the important big things, it changes the tone of our relationship. My DIL's FOO is involved just about 24/7, so of course it feels easier and less awkward when they get together compared to our rare communications/gatherings, which perpetuates our fading more & more into the background.
Lilly, I'm so sorry this is happening to you too. Wish I had a magic wand :(
Quote from: Lillycache on May 06, 2012, 06:27:17 AM
The reality is that most of the contact I have had over the with DS and the GKs has been orchestrated by DIL. SHE has been the social planner. All of the Christmas gifts, birthday and Mothers Day cards and gift were the result of her, despite the fact that she has hated doing it. NOW that she is pretty much out of the picture for me and DS is in charge of making the effort... guess what.. NO Christmas gift, no birthday card... and I am sure there will be no recognition on Mothers Day. Perhaps a brief phone call.. but no card... no little token (like a potted petunia) Nothing. I have no illusions about my son. He is self centered and selfish. So the fact remains.. without DIL, I loose out on a lot. Of course this is not about monetary and material things... but you have to admit it's nice to know that DS would take the time to remember you with a token, no matter how small. Most times... having a son is nothing like having a daughter. Women are much more thoughtful and men don't see the big deal. I know my son, and he feels that just by showing up with the kids every couple of months is all the effort he needs to make. He thinks phoning me every 3 or 4 weeks is sufficient. I guess I should be happy for what I have because I know many here don't even get that.. and I am... but I cannot help but feel I am usually an afterthought. Am I making sense? Or coming off materialistic and whiney.... which is not my intent.
You're making a lot of sense to me. It's what happened in my situation, except for I didn't really harbor ill feelings toward MIL until she started acting poorly towards me and DD.
I've read this from the DIL point of view many times and not just on WWU. DIL starts out trying and then stops because she is hurt by something and/or it is too stressful. She doesn't always stop because of her MIL, sometimes it's a marital issue. Sometimes the husband takes advantage of her. You say your DS is self-centered and that you don't have any illusions about him (which is such a good thing!) He could be displaying self-centered traits in his marriage and that's what the real problem is. Unfortunately you are collateral damage.
Another thought, my MIL would frequently say stuff like she knows that my husband, her son is forgetful and is not a social person. However, she would assume that he is not forgetful with myself and my own FOO, assume that he is cutting rugs out with my FOO. Not so. The same traits carried over into our marriage. It just shows in a different way now.
It is so easy to identify with these posts and being in the background is so hard . I can relate to the feeling of it being a casual time when together vs feeling like a close knit family that it use to be before the ( sil in our case ) situations . I can even relate to feeling guilty for being a loving supportive mom to DD and that might be the cause of conflict now . Who knows but I'm getting my life back even if moving at a snail's pace I'm getting there until the next shoe falls. Do hope to have more time with DD and GS in the future.
Good points, Pam. I can see where that would carry over. Assumptions are dangerous things.
My DS, OTOH, does go out of his way for the ILs. He researches vacation spots, dining options, purchases, gifts. How do I know? Somehow it seems to come up in conversation, funny huh? I happen to take pride in the fact that I raised a thoughtful DS who accepts his ILs and can fit in even though they are very different from his FOO. I just wish that same consideration was given us by DS as well as DIL (who apparently was raised to shun those who are different.)
It just occurred to me that we often judge people based on silly parameters. I remember my folks saying disparaging things about people who made a recipe a certain way or enjoyed a particular sport they didn't see the point of. When I married DH, & his wonderful FOO did those horrible things (lol) I learned that my Ps were being snooty and ridiculous.
We MILs/DILs may find that we are being judged on silly, ridiculous things we have no idea of! I had a boss many years ago whose mother told him women who wear dangly earrings are immoral. Guess who wore dangly earrings to work one day? Oh yeah, I was the immoral hussy from then on. At least he eventually told me, lol.
QuoteWe MILs/DILs may find that we are being judged on silly, ridiculous things we have no idea of!
Let me tell you one that fits this bill. In reading the things I have done over the years... one thing my DIL wrote about was when I redecorated my living room and bought a HUGE expensive matching dog bed. My dog didn't want anything to do with it and wouldn't even go near it. It was at least 4 feet across and like a big furry pillow. I made the comment that the next time GS spent the night, we could move it into my room and he could sleep on it. I thought it made good sense as he would be close to us and he couldn't fall out and get hurt. All he could do was roll on the floor. She didn't react, but OMG... her posting was that I totally offended her by insinuating her son was a dog! I had absolutely no idea I had done something wrong. Yet I was judged as being insensitive and degrading to my GS. As a kid, I would think it would have been kind of fun to spend the night on a big pillow at grandmas.. How can you forsee something like this? How can you know how to act and what to say if things like this are considered a problem?
Oh no you di'ent!! LOL!
When DS and then FDIL got a dog, we called her our granddoggy.
I don't think I need to explain how much of a mistake that was with FDIL. She is pretty literal and lacking the sense of humor and play our family has.
I don't think you can forsee something like that. You just do your best to live a good life and shrug a lot.
Quote from: Doe on May 06, 2012, 11:15:00 AM
Oh no you di'ent!! LOL!
When DS and then FDIL got a dog, we called her our granddoggy.
I don't think I need to explain how much of a mistake that was with FDIL. She is pretty literal and lacking the sense of humor and play our family has.
I don't think you can forsee something like that. You just do your best to live a good life and shrug a lot.
I know.. how horrible of me. I remember when my son was an infant and we visited my DHs granny in Alabama. My son slept in a HUGE dresser drawer with a pad in it. NEVER did I think my Granny in law thought my son was a pair of pair of underwear! lol!!
At anyrate... she said that her son would spend the night at my house again when she saw pigs flying outside her bedroom window! Guess what? He never did again. So we can pay huge prices for something that innocent.
I'm wondering why the older woman assumed it was your responsibility to say hello when you entered the room. Why didn't she say hello to you when you entered? In some cultures, it would have been rude to say a casual hello until you were properly introduced. If one of you were shy or very introverted (not the same as shy), a casual hello could have been very stressful. This is a perfect example of where we jump to conclusions and assume a rudeness instead of just a difference. For all that woman knew, you had a severe stutter that you found embarrassing so didn't like to talk. And reporting you to management was a rather extreme reaction. Did the company have a policy that said employees had to say hello to each other? Did the policy dictate who was responsible for initiating the hello? If I had been the manager, I would have told her - couched nicely - not to be so sensitive.
I've made this plug before (tho I swear I do not make a commission) that the works of Deborah Tannen give some good insight on how differing communication styles can lead us to making moral judgements in the wrong places.
I know the the world is ever increasingly turning into couch potatoes, but really, jumping to conclusions should not be an acceptable form of exercise. How often does someone post a problem here and the responses will be along the lines of "Well, I don't think your MIL/DIL was out of line. That's not necessarily rude. Maybe she finds your method out of place." Different does not mean bad. Different does not mean rude. Different just means, well, different.
Quote from: herbalescapes on May 08, 2012, 05:06:58 AM
Different does not mean bad. Different does not mean rude. Different just means, well, different.
I wish more people understood that! My mom initially took the choices we made for our baby as an attack on her choices when I was a baby, because they were very different. It took her a while to come around that we were making the best choices for us and our baby, and now she's pretty supportive. My MIL however, was initially supportive but when things didn't play out the same way they did when she was raising DH, her attitude changed.
I can't remember if it was this thread or another one, but the point was made that sometimes we focus on stupid little things or comments, when the issue is actually bigger. A small comment gets blown way out of proportion, because it's easy to pick on that than face the real source of the dysfunction. I fall into that trap myself - getting annoyed at my MIL because she keeps changing my son's hair to the way she likes it (which I know is stupid :) ) when in reality the big issue is that she puts down my choices as a mom and that she wants to have the 'mom' role in his life rather than a grandmotherly one.
I found out years later that a comment I made during our wedding planning about *my* family has had MIL stewing and holding a grudge for several years. Why she took it to mean anything about her I will never know lol. And she wasn't even the one who told me, one of her daughters did! I assume she's still stewing about it because since I became aware I noticed the digs she would get in about it. There's nothing I can do unless she brings it up to me and lets me explain (although I doubt the explanation would help her very much at this point, it seems she let it take on a life of it's own and wouldn't be able to hear me.)
So I agree, if people can communicate openly and honestly it would solve a lot of problems. A lady told me some people just can't, it's like wearing gloves and tying your shoes for some people. They just can't.
I've said it before: IMO, if someone has an agenda to not accept another person, they will take any and all things out of context as an excuse for their agenda. If they cleared things up they'd have no reason for their feelings.
Quote from: Pen on May 08, 2012, 09:11:08 AM
I've said it before: IMO, if someone has an agenda to not accept another person, they will take any and all things out of context as an excuse for their agenda. If they cleared things up they'd have no reason for their feelings.
It totally makes sense the way you put it, Pen. I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around this kind of stuff.
Yes if you knew what you were up against , why ( in our case SIL) the person has just totally turned a 180 degree, what you can do to fix it , etc etc but when you deal with someone who puts emotions under the rug , is not one to talk about feelings to anyone , i don't ever seeing things getting resolved. We would love to have a sit down open , adult discusson ( they r adults now at 31 and 36) as to how all of us can work together , better or what ever to keep this little family we have together. I"m not use to a grudge holder but we now have one in the SIL , he has grudges against his own family for very very long time . I don't understand grudges , I just couldn't do it , that is too much to hold in I'd have to talk about it . Life is too short and too many peopled say or do things , then something happens and those folks never had the chance to correct the bad feelings and have to live with the pain for the rest of their lives. so I do hope none of these people have to lose someone before they have a chance to make amends.
Quote from: pam1 on May 08, 2012, 09:23:20 AM
Quote from: Pen on May 08, 2012, 09:11:08 AM
I've said it before: IMO, if someone has an agenda to not accept another person, they will take any and all things out of context as an excuse for their agenda. If they cleared things up they'd have no reason for their feelings.
It totally makes sense the way you put it, Pen. I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around this kind of stuff.
In order for honest and productive discussions to take place BOTH parties need a vested interest in resolving the situation. Perhaps there is a better chance early on in the marriage for this to take place as DIL is still interested in pleasing her new husband. However in my case.. DIL/DS have been married 12 years and have 3 kids. He's not going anywhere as she sees it. She has no desire to talk or negotiate. She knows she holds the keys to the kids and in some respect my son. We can only enter into these talks from a position of weakness not strength as the thought of losing our sons and gks is too much. I think we can eventually get to the point of being willing to walk away, but DIL can get there in a heartbeat.
QuoteYes if you knew what you were up against , why ( in our case SIL) the person has just totally turned a 180 degree, what you can do to fix it , etc etc but when you deal with someone who puts emotions under the rug , is not one to talk about feelings to anyone , i don't ever seeing things getting resolved.
It takes two sides to "fix" it; not one. In our case, we were totally wrong (about things we did not do, did not say, ere - did not even think) and there was going to be no discussion, only ways to get us out of our son's and DIL's lives (luckily, we were still allowed, or should I say we paid, to see the grandchildren - free babysitting and financial gifts). It was her agenda from the day of their wedding. We were totally blindsided. I never knew people existed like her and I never dreamed my family could be so divided. I'm a lot wiser now but I paid a big price for my wisdom.
I don't think my DIL had an agenda since before the wedding. I think she seriously wanted to have a good relationship with me. However, I believe I was held to unreasonable standards. Anything I said or did was discussed with her family and I came out lacking. This is why I wish there had been a discussion after the first few of my "sins". Instead she let me fumble along blindly for 10 years making mistake after mistake and reaming my son over every one of my indiscretions. I was just being myself and she was keeping a log book. It didn't help that she comes from a large matriarcal family with 4 sisters, a mother, a grandma and lots of aunties to discuss me with and to find all my "ulterior motives" and indiscretions. It does tick me off a bit knowing now that I was such a topic. I never had a chance.. or if I did it was ONE chance and when I blew that it was the beginning of the end.
Quote from: Lillycache on May 08, 2012, 11:49:44 AM
I don't think my DIL had an agenda since before the wedding. I think she seriously wanted to have a good relationship with me. However, I believe I was held to unreasonable standards. Anything I said or did was discussed with her family and I came out lacking. This is why I wish there had been a discussion after the first few of my "sins". Instead she let me fumble along blindly for 10 years making mistake after mistake and reaming my son over every one of my indiscretions. I was just being myself and she was keeping a log book. It didn't help that she comes from a large matriarcal family with 4 sisters, a mother, a grandma and lots of aunties to discuss me with and to find all my "ulterior motives" and indiscretions. It does tick me off a bit knowing now that I was such a topic. I never had a chance.. or if I did it was ONE chance and when I blew that it was the beginning of the end.
Now this is really interesting, Lillycache. My MIL comes from a very large matriarchial family who talk/fight among each other frequently. I've noticed the men are sidelined and their preferences/opinions aren't even heard and they are expected to just go along with what the women want.
Sometimes I've wondered if this turned into a problem for MIL, being able to relate to women who are not in this clique. I know she doesn't get along with her DILs, doesn't keep friends but has a close bond with her female family members. Nothing is up for negotiation with her because they have their strict rules that you have to fit into, there is no compromise.
Quote from: pam1 on May 08, 2012, 11:53:56 AM
Quote from: Lillycache on May 08, 2012, 11:49:44 AM
I don't think my DIL had an agenda since before the wedding. I think she seriously wanted to have a good relationship with me. However, I believe I was held to unreasonable standards. Anything I said or did was discussed with her family and I came out lacking. This is why I wish there had been a discussion after the first few of my "sins". Instead she let me fumble along blindly for 10 years making mistake after mistake and reaming my son over every one of my indiscretions. I was just being myself and she was keeping a log book. It didn't help that she comes from a large matriarcal family with 4 sisters, a mother, a grandma and lots of aunties to discuss me with and to find all my "ulterior motives" and indiscretions. It does tick me off a bit knowing now that I was such a topic. I never had a chance.. or if I did it was ONE chance and when I blew that it was the beginning of the end.
Now this is really interesting, Lillycache. My MIL comes from a very large matriarchial family who talk/fight among each other frequently. I've noticed the men are sidelined and their preferences/opinions aren't even heard and they are expected to just go along with what the women want.
Sometimes I've wondered if this turned into a problem for MIL, being able to relate to women who are not in this clique. I know she doesn't get along with her DILs, doesn't keep friends but has a close bond with her female family members. Nothing is up for negotiation with her because they have their strict rules that you have to fit into, there is no compromise.
This is exactly how it is with her FOO as my son describes it. Her father retreats with him to the family room to watch sports. The women band together and gossip. I imagine I was the topic many times. I don't want to mention the ethnic group they belong to as that would be generalizing but my present husband's late wife had the same type of matriarchal family. They were the same ethnicity of my DIL. The women RULE... that's it.. the men retreat together and stay out of the way. At least that's how he described it to me. No one... or at least an outside female was allowed into the clique. They would never be accepted. Men are accepted.. not women. It is interesting isn't it?
Hey jdtm I think SIL had an agenda that started at the reception as he is seen as a totally different person than we knew and loved before the wedding for 4 years. Since it is early in the marriage and now with a 3 month old baby there might be hope for things to change. They got married in 10/10 so it is still new and they r not kids at 31 and 36. Our family is very small so it is hard not to notice them missing or his attitude by family members . Letting go of hope is hard but I can't change anyone but me . Take care
Oooh good thread. So much here. Let's see. I never expected to be DIL's BFF. I had hoped we would become close and could enjoy shopping trips, lunches, etc. I had hoped she would want to come and enjoy some holidays with us. So when that didn't pan out, which is ok, then my next hope would be that an occasional visit, call would happen, drop by on the occasional holiday. Even if it was just out of a sense of family. I would have hoped my DS would have wanted to and would have kept the contact. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe he is just fine and dandy not seeing any of us.
I don't think DIL started out with an agenda. I think she was so used to getting her way with her family, most of the time, that her expectations were that we would be the same. I think she was very insecure and when being a Mom to my then High School Son interfered with her plans, she took it as a personal attack. So I do think by the time the wedding rolled around, she had an agenda. Get through the wedding, then I don't have to ever have anything to do with these people again. He will have my family and will not need them. And guess what, she's right. They don't need us. They have her family to do everything for them and with them, so they really don't need us.
I guess the bottom line with me is that I didn't meet her expectations either. I wasn't the MIL she was hoping for. She wasn't the DIL I was hoping for. The difference is that I can accept that, embrace that we are different and move on in the relationship. I guess they can't.
This is a very good thread. I hear you Pooh , very good thoughts and ideas. I guess I hoped things would be different and maybe I could be a motherly figure to him since his mom died 12 years ago , but didn't want to replace her but be a very good MIL. He enjoyed the party while it lasted but once it was legal I think his agenda was to cut DD from her family as he had cut himself from his own family even before his mother died. So family is not his cup of tea and I don't think we realized that prior to for 4 years , he had us all fooled , we had great times and really enjoyed him as he was relaxed, had fun etvc. WEll not anymore , wedding day was the end of all of that. So we will have to accept it as it is just don't want to lose the DD over it all but if she has to do what he says to keep the peace we very well might .
QuoteI guess the bottom line with me is that I didn't meet her expectations either. I wasn't the MIL she was hoping for. She wasn't the DIL I was hoping for. The difference is that I can accept that, embrace that we are different and move on in the relationship. I guess they can't
I guess this is true for me to, except I thought she WAS the DIL I was hoping for. She is smart and a great mother and very competant in business and money matters. I was really happy my son married her. Things were fine in my opinion.. until the frost started forming.
Lillycache the same here , we couldn't have been happier as he was smart, well educated, well established and being he was 4 years older we felt he was past his wild days ( now I don't know if he ever had any ) . So we were very pleased and looked forward to enjoying this new union. Well he showed his true colors at the reception and that has been the way it has been ever since almost 2 years ago. So what do we do now ? Trying to take it as it is but very hard .
Quote from: pam1 on May 08, 2012, 09:23:20 AM
Quote from: Pen on May 08, 2012, 09:11:08 AM
I've said it before: IMO, if someone has an agenda to not accept another person, they will take any and all things out of context as an excuse for their agenda. If they cleared things up they'd have no reason for their feelings.
It totally makes sense the way you put it, Pen. I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around this kind of stuff.
That's because you're an ethical, kind person, Pam :) I've had a little training from SM. It took me a few years to figure it out 'cos I don't operate that way either.
Quote from: Pen on May 08, 2012, 09:48:47 PM
Quote from: pam1 on May 08, 2012, 09:23:20 AM
Quote from: Pen on May 08, 2012, 09:11:08 AM
I've said it before: IMO, if someone has an agenda to not accept another person, they will take any and all things out of context as an excuse for their agenda. If they cleared things up they'd have no reason for their feelings.
It totally makes sense the way you put it, Pen. I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around this kind of stuff.
That's because you're an ethical, kind person, Pam :) I've had a little training from SM. It took me a few years to figure it out 'cos I don't operate that way either.
Thanks, Pen :) DH tells me all the time that I will never understand them because I don't think like they do. I try to keep all of this in mind while I'm detaching. It's hard though.
Pam it is so hard trying to find out what and how some of these folks tick. Wrapping my little pea brain around it all can make me into a complete "air head" with no idea left at all. I agree and my Dh says we dont need to let it consume us as we will never know as we just arent that way so understanding is something we may never be able to do.
My dil has her mother and other female relatives/friends that she's close to, that she confides in; lots of family drama and convo. In other words, she doesn't need me to talk with....
So we chat about the children and trivial things a bit, but she just really doesn't have the desire or time for close friendship w me; so I try not to be annoying and chatter on.....her interests are more into fashion/hair/going out.....even my dsis says, hey, she just isn't talking, she's not a conversationalist, she's shallow.....(she's just not grown up even though not young.)
I have had ds's past gfs that felt more like daughters or friends that would talk about things, that seemed glad to be with us; that did seem "into me"; so that helps in not feeling rejected. If I call/email/talk too much, I feel like I'm intruding; we get along better on a superficial level, which is sad but true.
Perhaps by always being guarded , they prevent us from getting too close .
I always feel I am kept at a distance , polite conversation .
If that's all I am ever going to get , well that's ok , better than any slanging matches .
We will always be separate families , I think thats how my DIL wants it .
Except my GD and I know better , we will always be best buds !
Quote from: artlady on May 10, 2012, 07:28:40 AM
Pam it is so hard trying to find out what and how some of these folks tick. Wrapping my little pea brain around it all can make me into a complete "air head" with no idea left at all. I agree and my Dh says we dont need to let it consume us as we will never know as we just arent that way so understanding is something we may never be able to do.
Exactly what my DH says, artlady. He says I will never be able to do it, I used to take offense but now I'm starting to see the light lol.
The past 3 generations.......I agree. We have raised a bunch of LOVELY INDIVIDUAL SNOWFLAKES. The whole boost of self esteem thing has gotten to the point where we have raised a country of many narcissists! While our country currently falls behind the rest of the world in actual accomplishments, we remain number one in self esteem. Nice! Go YOU! Special Snowflake! YAY! You got up and dressed your 27ryr self! Oh, good boy! You are such a smart and pretty girl, I love your hair! Oh, we don't like grandma cuz she's old and her teeth are getting brown and her hands are wrangled and she looks like.......
Look at the definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder NPD. LORD knows, there's plenty of info on the web. It explains why we go thru these issues and why we end up thinking WE are the ones who are nuts! No, we are the ones who get trapped and mistreated by the ones we raised. Makes u understand why some animals eat their young?! LOL!
Justanoldgrandma, at least you receive polite if not stilted conversation. I never received any of the above. I made attempts to engage DIL to no avail. She ignored me or gave one word answers or side glances to my DS when I asked about her family and where she was from etc. making conversation. Realize it is not you. My DS had other relationships before this DIL and I got along with all of them. I am one to be invasive and pop over whenever, I have always had the understanding with DS to pop in whenever he wants but his popping in days ended when he met DIL.
Wow FOOTLOOSE You have hit the nail on the head . Yes and we are all dealing the the Narcissists in our families , that is why so many of us are here . WE are trapped in their web of instant gratification, it is all about me syndrome , I"m the right one , you are wrong and selfish attitudes. I have read all about the narcissists and the NPD as that is the SIL up and down , not had the chance to meet one of those until him and now I think I'm read to get my PHD on the subject I've done so much reading and research. Hope you have a great Mother's Day , hugs to all .
It's the generation, and it scares the heck out of me. It's the age of hundreds of FaceBook friends and zero ability to connect personally. Empathy? It's a foreign concept. It's has to be all about them, every second, and when it's not they are brutal. It scares me because of grandchildren. Will they ever get out of their own needs long enough to be there for children?
So true Tryingmybest. It is very hard to wrap my brain around this new generation of cell phones, emails, text etc.and I"m pretty open minded being a right brain art person and jsut turned 60. The art of true communication is becoming a lost art such as the old letter writing of my grandmother's time or visiting with relatives on Sundays ( but that is hard as the society has become so job mobile they live all over , not close ) . I've seen in schools how they don't really have to write essays or papers like we use to with the footnotes ,outlines etc. So somehow we have to get on the train as it is heading fast away from life as it use to be .
They just spent thousands here, where I live, on IPADS for all the High School students in English class to use. Huh? ???
Each generation forms the next. Our generation raised many self centered people.. possibley because we of the flower children age worked so hard to instill self esteem... and went overboard...we did not "hellicopter parent" We wanted out kids to be independent and strong. So the pendulum swung way over. Now we have a generation of mothers who are hoverers. Perhaps because they feel they were not hovered over enough? Many are highly educated career women who have given up the workplace to become "professional" mothers. They engineer every aspect of their children's lives from before birth to post college. They work tirelessly to insure their kids get into the right preschool, get picked for each and every sport they try out for.. get into the right college..and on and on.. Just what kind of adults will THEY be rasising? Adults who are unable to make their own decisions and take care of themselves? So the pendulum will swing back. And so it goes.
I agree Lilly, I think it will always swing. I can listen to my Mom talk for hours about her childhood and young adult years. Part of me goes "Oh, to have those experiences with such a simple life." They were poor but they had so much love for each other, ethics, morals and respect. Then the other part goes, "No way! What a rough life! Where was the fun?" The good, the bad and the ugly.
Doingmybest, Facebook, YIKES! The most sophisticated way to be excluded and ignored and a true sign of these times. Electronic voyeurism! Yes, I have fired FB for the 4th time at least! (on a 12 step program as we chat) mmmmm"let's see what the kids r up to..." only to find more detail on my exclusion from the day to day stuff. How bout all those self portraits w/ the iPhone. Where the heck do ya think they call everything "i" something? (innovation is not part of the acronym) Should be called "me" phone, "me" pad, "me" everything. U, oh u r not special, ONLY ME! I must share every insipid detail about my day! I am just that important and I know all my 9999 "friends" must know that I burnt my pinky on that elusive slice of toast, stuck in my toaster. As if anyone REALLY cares?! I found out my GS1 lost his first tooth via FB. God forbid a direct convo! Nope FB is another tool for check the box. MD card mailed, check, obligatory "how ya doing" phone call, check, obligatory answer, "fine and you" check...Small talk of the smallest form! My DIL lists all "family" (FOO ONLY) but not the groom's family, not me either! Just so hard to speak over the phone! Cannot check the box that way. May mean some direct interaction and accountability? "so much easier to text" is the excuse. REALLY?! Talking is just about as challenging as breathing! It's those dang convos that make me uncomfy cuz maybe someone will ask me to spend a sec on something for someone else. Gosh, i might feel something?!
Footloose, what do you think people said about phones, back when they were invented? "Whatever happened to popping over to someone's house to chat FACE TO FACE?" To me, it's the same cycle over and over again.
For me, I love FB. It keeps me connected to my friends and family, in terms of their day to day life. I love seeing what my niece posts, even though I don't comment on her wall very often. I know that if I were to post 'too much', she would block me and then I wouldn't see anything. And I'm okay with that. Even the friends I have that are more acquaintances, I like keeping a link to them open.
And it's true, I would NOT be FB friends with my MIL. We just don't have that kind of relationship. It's true, I'm just not that into her.
Go Footloose! Ha ha ha...I'm still laughing about the burnt pinky on toast!
IMO, every generation thinks those that follow are going to you-know-where in a handcart. I imagine my DGM must have wondered what was up w/that awful Elvis & her parents before her must have been shocked when she bobbed her hair & started wearing short, flapper-style dresses. Talk about the "me" generation, lol! When she was a teen very few people in her area had electricity or automobiles; by the time she died a man had landed on the moon.
I work w/teens, have for years, and although the technology is changing (like it is for all of us) most of them have the same struggles, fears, & insecurities we all had. We don't hear much about those who volunteer, go into low-paying but fulfilling professions such as teaching or social work, donate time/money to worthy causes, join the military, etc. They do exist; I know quite a few of them.
Many decades/generations ago I went to high school w/the children of celebrities, business moguls, etc. Some were jerks, some were kind and compassionate. When we moved to a more middle-class community I went to school with, it seemed, the same jerks and nice kids. Same percentage, different demographic, several generations removed from this current one.
Speaking of narcissists, no one outdoes my DF (& the DFs of a few of my dear old BFFs) who all hail from "the greatest generation."
IMO we simply cannot fall into the trap of generalizing about "kids these days" or any other group. To do so creates black & white thinking that is used by politicians & others to create anger & distrust against "those people" (whomever they may be.)
Well put, Pen.
I think this is a good reminder for all of us here too. When we say stuff like "MILs today" or "DILs today" it can be divisive on WWU too just like it is in real life.
Quote from: Scoop on May 15, 2012, 07:27:05 AM
Footloose, what do you think people said about phones, back when they were invented? "Whatever happened to popping over to someone's house to chat FACE TO FACE?" To me, it's the same cycle over and over again.
For me, I love FB. It keeps me connected to my friends and family, in terms of their day to day life. I love seeing what my niece posts, even though I don't comment on her wall very often. I know that if I were to post 'too much', she would block me and then I wouldn't see anything. And I'm okay with that. Even the friends I have that are more acquaintances, I like keeping a link to them open.
And it's true, I would NOT be FB friends with my MIL. We just don't have that kind of relationship. It's true, I'm just not that into her.
When I was a kid in the 50's my parents bought a house in a brand new neighborhood on the very edge of the City. All the houses were new. I remember all my summer days hearing the sound of hammering and construction as more and more new houses were going up. Most of the people buying those houses were the members of the "Greatest" generation. The WWII boys and their wives. Us kids (oh and there were a lot of us in that neighborhood) well... WE were and are the Boomers. But I'm off on a tangent.. lol!!! (I do that more and more in my old age)... anyway, what I was going to say was that my parents had absolutely scads of friends.. All young couples with kids. They all met each other by going to the local tavern.. which in those days was more like a club house or meeting place. OR they met in Church. So these young couples would then visit each other at their homes. My mom would make a phone call to see what Millie and Joe were doing and if they would like to come over to play cards. Or Peggy and Woodie would call my parents to invite them. Us kids would tag along and get to stay up late...and listen to them sing.. after the cards and a few drinks.. lol!! When they got to Indian Love call by Jeanette McDonald and Nelson Eddie... well, we knew it was soon time to go home.. Ahhh... fond memories of people actually interacting face to face.. People just don't visit any more..
LILLYcache so well said and my sentiments exactly, this new ME generation is missing so much by no fault of their own it is the culture they live in now. Visiting, letter writing, long phone chats are all part of the past. It is so sad as I saw my parents generation ( WW ll) being so very different even from my own generation and there will never be another one that good. I just wish everyone had time to slow down and really enjoy life instead of this fast track we all live on now . As reports on the news and other places so many churches will be closing in not so far away years as the young couples don't go to church and the old ones are dying off.
Not everyone in every generation is exactly the same. I'm old, and I no longer write long letters either. I prefer to text or email, actually. Haven't bought a stamp in years! I'm a pretty good writer, but I panic when all I have is someone's home address & I need to contact them.
I think letter-writing on proper paper will eventually make a comeback (you know, the retro thing, lol.) It's already happening amongst artsy young hipsters who appreciate the craft. There are a ton of sites selling beautiful, handcrafted, artistic writing papers. When young parents see the delight on their kids faces when they get a letter or card in the mail, they may embrace the old, slow way of communicating. It will become special, I think.
Point being, we shouldn't generalize about this or that generation...it's far more productive to pay attention to our own behavior. Some of those generalizations are used to manipulate us into black/white thinking instead of taking a broader, more tolerant view, IMO.
I can only go by my parents and their friends. In the 50's, no internet or cell phones.. Heck.. very few even had TV's in the early 50's They visited. They played cards. and since not many in the group even had a car they walked to each others homes. My dad didn't get a car until I was 12 years old.. we took the bus if we wanted to visit anyone far away. Fond memories though. It was a much simpler time.
I'm in my 60's. I'm pretty savvy internet wise and I prefer to e-mail ( I don't text though) I drive and don't walk anywere very much. times have changed
My 62-year old boyfriend texts like a 15 year old girl, and taught me to text (I'm 42). I don't own a car, and he has never not owned a car. I agree with Pen that generalizations are not productive, regardless of what they're about. It may temporarily help a person detach from feeling hurt, but it inherently makes the person or group being generalized "less than." They stop being people and individuals with worth, and become lumped into a faceless, inhuman group. Ditto for living in the past and looking at it as though it was somehow better than now. What we have to work with is what's happening right now, with individuals, and all we really -can- work with is our own actions and beliefs. Not theirs, especially not if we stop looking at them as people.
I understand about the generalizations , I also don't mail letters anymore except i do send birthday, Christmas etc still vs internet . Growing up in the south things have always been a slower pace and now it is all on the fast track. I think having fond memories of the past is fine , accepting the changes in today as in the book " Who Moved My Cheese" , change is going to happen no matter what it is, how and what you chose to do with it . Being an educator I'm use to all kinds of groups, reaching all the different levels and meeting the goals of all I teach , so I know each and everyone is different just like the snowflakes , that i how I see each one of my students. So I understand about generalizations and I also have attended lots of workshops on theories , studies and research that we are constantly studying so that we understand all of the students we teach in order to reach them . Not meaning to step on toes
Doingmybest, Facebook, YIKES! The most sophisticated way to be excluded and ignored and a true sign of these times. Electronic voyeurism! Yes, I have fired FB for the 4th time at least! (on a 12 step program as we chat) mmmmm"let's see what the kids r up to..." only to find more detail on my exclusion from the day to day stuff. How bout all those self portraits w/ the iPhone. Where the heck do ya think they call everything "i" something? (innovation is not part of the acronym) Should be called "me" phone, "me" pad, "me" everything. U, oh u r not special, ONLY ME! I must share every insipid detail about my day! I am just that important and I know all my 9999 "friends" must know that I burnt my pinky on that elusive slice of toast, stuck in my toaster. As if anyone REALLY cares?! I found out my GS1 lost his first tooth via FB. God forbid a direct convo! Nope FB is another tool for check the box. MD card mailed, check, obligatory "how ya doing" phone call, check, obligatory answer, "fine and you" check...Small talk of the smallest form! My DIL lists all "family" (FOO ONLY) but not the groom's family, not me either! Just so hard to speak over the phone! Cannot check the box that way. May mean some direct interaction and accountability? "so much easier to text" is the excuse. REALLY?! Talking is just about as challenging as breathing! It's those dang convos that make me uncomfy cuz maybe someone will ask me to spend a sec on something for someone else. Gosh, i might feel something?!
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Yikes, did I hijack this blog or what?! Sorry, not my intent. Please understand that I am not bashing current technology! i just hate the self love shown on dang Facebook. Only MY opinion. I do not look into history anything other than avoiding the repetition of past mistakes and to understand human and American growth/ development. I am NOT one to dwell on the "good ol days" There are 3 time orientations baked into personality types, past, present and future. There is nothing wrong with any of these. it takes all to make our human world work best. i happen to be, u guessed it, set in the FUTURE.
I am a Project Manager by trade and an inventor and craftsman by hobby so i LOVE technology and look forward o the future. technology that replaces humanity is my issue and the point I was attempting to make here!
So now I return you to the originally scheduled program, " She's just not in to YOU!
good point and well stated thanks
I miss those good old days. Remember when marriages were forever (even if abusive)? When girls were girls and boys were boys and acting outside the accepted gender roles could result in complete ostracization? When racial divides were deep and unbridgeable? When cancer was a 100% death sentence? When we fought the Nazis and, hmmmm, were the Nazis? When having a mental illness was a source of deep shame? When having a child with a mental disability was a source of deep shame? When victims of rape knew it was their fault because of how they dressed or acted? When if your teenaged daughter got pregnant it was socially acceptable to throw her out on the streets? When drunk driving was legal? When bullying was a rite of passage? Yep, miss those good old days.
True, Herbal, there was a lot of prejudice in the olden days. All the things you mentioned. Notice though how much these OLD hatreds and standards are trying to resurface in a lot of politicians' speeches?! i feel like it's back in the 50's or worse (when these things didn't affect me bc I was a baby.....!
It's hard for me to realize so many people still harbor these homophobic, anti-poor and anti-mentally ill feelings, "if you had a positive attitude you wouldn't be sick" anthems, only the well-off should get med. care, no family planning, no equal pay for women..... and some of these issues some politicians are trying to legislate! (not going to go into politics here; just some of the speeches are frightening!)
In a way, i feel we are worse off than in the olden days when there were some values, although there were struggles for women's and civil rights; i thought we had conquered these issues....guess not....
I want it all: old-fashioned courtesy but tolerance and rights for all....
Anybody wants my twopence worth? I think we are only at the beginning of a long progress towards true humanity. And it often seems we are going two steps forward, one step back. It needs much more time to eliminate all the ills of people living together, and sometimes it feels as if we will never improve as a species. When we look back at history the mistakes we make have been made over and over again by other cultures.
Look at German history, how the country tried to recover from 12 years of madness and made an attempt to exonerate herself as a true democracy (with the help of the big friend USA in the case of West Germany). This was in my view only possible because of past efforts by German artists, philosophers and writers who had created a sound basis for the Humanism which people could adopt again. (Those books were burnt by the Nazis in 1938). It shows how humanistic thoughts and belief in a higher power does prevail. Nowadays the united Germany is not perfect by all means but it's trying hard and has enough well educated young people who may make the difference in the future.
So what I'm actually saying is that in the face of adversity we need to keep up hope in the future and celebrate the small steps forward and not get hung up on those in the wrong direction. The world will never be perfect and whole but if it's alright for most people, we can rejoice. Neither we nor our children, maybe not even out GC will experience this. We have made such immense process in technology, the human progress is sadly lagging behind.
I don't like FB either and left it a few months ago, I thought I might miss it, but haven't. Now I know that people want to contact me personally and it works well. I haven't lost anybody by not being on FB any more.
Whoops, long message.
She's just not that into you is so true. We have chemistry with some people and not with others. It becomes tragic in a way if the chemistry with our 'nearest and dearest' doesn't work and what do we do then? Well, I suppose if there was a hard and fast answer to this, WWU wouldn't have to be here. Glad it is though. :)
Lots of good discussion, but I think it can be wrapped up about now.
I do want to ask the board to please stay away from the generalizations, both Pen and Elsie explained it so well that I don't think I need to get into it again.