Well I'm sitting here drinking a cup of coffee and happy to be halfway through the holiday season. DS and DIL did Thanksgiving with us Friday, after of course being with her FOO for the day, the way it will always be. We 'LL get Christmas Eve, so...well you know. And I know I don't have anything to complain about, just need to handle my anger at being clearly - less important.
If they were bonding as a couple I would be okay, my son is just getting sucked into her family and I'm so not okay with that. I'm okay with my DIL, but I am furious with her mother, it feels like SHE's stealing my son. She has just made it clear that her traditions MUST continue unchanged. She is kind of a scary controlling demanding woman, no one challenges her. :o.
if children come into the mix, this is going to get really tough. Well anyway Happy Relaxgiving, and thanks for being here. " Detach with love"... Going to make a t-shirt!
hello TMB: You Say:
I don't have anything to complain about, just need to handle my anger at being clearly - less important.
I think that is the key, to learn to accept things that are out of our control without letting the anger take us over. As someone who has struggled with my DS MIL issues and my DIL's issues over the years and feeling so angry so many times I think I have made progress. The progress happened because, like you mention, I "detached with love."
Last summer I got to a place where who did what when and with what family ceased to affect me because I started planning my life without my DS and DD. Forward to this holiday. Surprise!! I was invited to my DD and DSister but declined and I thought they would be mad but my cat got sick so she rescued me from getting tangled in excuses. It's too soon after our estrangement for me to be "stuck" five hours from home if things go wrong with DD.
Then my son stopped to have lunch with me on his way to help his MIL move....(get this: he was not even spending Thanksgiving with his DW and children because he was going to help the (pathetic, IMHO) MIL.). I know it is to keep peace with his DW. So when he started talking about MIL problems I switched the conversation every time. One time I said, "Let's talk about something fun." I did slip up once when DS said, "she has nobody to help her." I said, "Well, you know, some people like to be a victim." Then I caught myself. Oooops. But I had my DS all to myself and we laughed and had a great time. He even brought presents for me that the GK had wrapped. DIL had even shopped for lovely things for me!!! Wowwwweeee! I will send a lovely thank you.
So the detachment is working, but now my family is reaching out and I am being very careful about being the same overbearing and overloving person that I used to be. I am detached. I did call DD and Dsister on Thanksgiving, they were so happy to talk!! I had just seen DS and was not going to call him at MILs!! But a note from him saying he got back home just fine, so that is another FIRST...
Detachment is hard work, and just letting things unfold without expectations is also hard work. For now this seems to be working. I need to apply this same formula to Christmas. Good luck to you TMB...I believe you are equally important to your son but I think this is how it happens when they are with DW. Hang in there....
Wow, TMB, I could have written your post! I try to be grateful for what little time I have w/DS, but something doesn't feel right. This T'day DS seemed even more engulfed by DIL's FOO; it was obvious that his focus is on them and not on his FOO. He's not interested in discussing anything but them and their expensive stuff. We were a duty call, nothing more. It's heartbreaking and painful.
Hey, at least I've stopped sobbing and have moved on to occasionally tearing up. DH didn't know what to do T'giving night, poor guy. On to Christmas :P
Begonia, I'm glad your detachment is working out for you & that you had a good visit w/your DS. How nice of DIL to send gifts! And a note about arriving safely home is very considerate. Yay!
Quote from: Pen on November 26, 2011, 07:32:47 AM
This T'day DS seemed even more engulfed by DIL's FOO; it was obvious that his focus is on them and not on his FOO. He's not interested in discussing anything but them and their expensive stuff. We were a duty call, nothing more. It's heartbreaking and painful.
Pen - my heart goes out to you, with your son blinded by what you know to be superficial, meaningless values. I recently read a column by David Brooks - about the Haimish Line - Just Google - David Brooks Haimish Line -- and you'll find the column he wrote a couple of months ago. It's about how the more expensive things and experiences are rarely the ones that are the most memorable or enjoyable. No, it won't change your son - but it might validate you and your values. And make you feel better that somebody like David Brooks understands and agrees with you. My only wish is that your son comes to understand these things eventually. I suspect he will - although it may take years. But you raised him right - the seeds are there. They will grow again someday.
Quote from: tryingmybest on November 26, 2011, 06:08:15 AM
If they were bonding as a couple I would be okay
Trying - so if they're not bonding as a couple? Maybe not a permanent situation? Good for you for detaching - then let the chips fall where they may.
And thanks for your support and thoughtful comments on a previous thread. I deeply appreciated your understanding and support - just was too raw to post back for a while. Take care of yourself.
Quote from: tryingmybest on November 26, 2011, 06:08:15 AM
She is kind of a scary controlling demanding woman, no one challenges her. :o.
LOL - just knowing this would entice me to become her nemesis somehow.... 8) (looking for the evil grin face)
Quote from: Shelby on November 26, 2011, 08:37:08 AM
Quote from: tryingmybest on November 26, 2011, 06:08:15 AM
If they were bonding as a couple I would be okay
Trying - so if they're not bonding as a couple? Maybe not a permanent situation? Good for you for detaching - then let the chips fall where they may.
And thanks for your support and thoughtful comments on a previous thread. I deeply appreciated your understanding and support - just was too raw to post back for a while. Take care of yourself.
I think Trying meant that it wouldn't be as hurtful if DS & DIL took holiday time apart from
both FOOs to bond, not that they weren't bonding at all. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Trying! I feel the same; if my DS & DIL were building their own traditions, being apart would be the natural way of things. The pain comes from knowing DS is now spending time with a shiny, new family and is forgetting about his dull, old FOO.
Remember..."less important" is a value judgment. It originates in another and has absolutely nothing to do with you. If, however, you were taught that you were "less important" when you were growing up, it may have been internalized. If so, there may be a place in you that agrees. That is about you and we can do something about what is "ours." It may be a long and arduous task but we can heal the misinformation given us. Right here and WWU, right now is a good place to start.
It is so sad to hear about the rigid MIL who reigns supreme. She is, of course, the most insecure person on the planet and has nothing but her biological history to define her. No wonder she will fight to the death to defend it.
What besotted young man in going to be able to put his foot down and say, "Not in my house." He is sometimes so besotted that he doesn't even know it's his house. It sure looks like it has somehow become "Her House"...without much of a democratic process. Old alliances fade away when the present looms to such a degree. Besotted morphs into "Where do my mom and dad fit into all of this?" And often what follows that is a whimper..."Oops...just thought I'd ask...please don't stop being cuddly and sweet. I am really hooked on cuddly and sweet."
See? We are back to besotted. Sometimes it lasts a lifetime. Other times it fades into..."Yes, dear."
Look back to where we started. A young guy, inexperienced, full of hope and wonder...never for a second willing to even consider betraying the love and trust he feels toward his family of origin. Never.
There are endless variations of this saga. There is the stereotypical MIL who brings her DIL to her knees on contact and never lets her get up. And we know about the DIL who says she is now the big cheese and no MIL on either side dare whisper..."Why? What for?"
In each case and in all of the ones not described...someone took over and a reign of terror commenced. (Occasionally, oh, so lovingly.) In each case, whether war was openly declared or insidious, someone wasn't challenged and stopped. The consequences of even thinking about stopping her melted the options into a puddle of fear that became a lake and then an ocean.
We don't study Conflict Resolution 101. It's not a required course, it isn't even on the list of subjects offered. We just don't know how. And "they" count on that. There are endless "they(s)." Look around.
@Penn and Shelby, both right ladies! it would hurt a lot less if DS and DIL were starting their own holiday traditions, they're not, just going on with hers. but the bonding as a couple isn't happening either, they spend every weekend with her family! 12 hours on Thanksgiving, Friday with us, now it's back to her FOO. Every Sunday there is the required Sunday dinner. I was always concerned that DIL didn't seem to have any friends... Now they have no couple friends and if it's not work they are with her family going to this endless list of required traditions. My son looks so stressed out, it breaks my heart. The DIL's family has money and my DIL has very high expectations. Her family isn't giving them things, just making it clear it's my son' responsibity to provide them. I get the feeling that she ' s whittling away at his self esteem, because at this point he can't. Add to that the constant emeshment with her family and all that she left behind to marry him, and I'm scared for my kid.
And Luise you are very perceptive, I grew up with the constant message that I was less important, and have spent years working hard to turn that around, but the buttons are still there and getting pushed big time!
:P
Begonia I'm glad to see the approach works, it's keeping me going. Doe, I got in trouble with DH at the wedding for humming the theme from "Jaws" when the MIL walked into the reception. I hope I can keep from taking her on, but I wouldn't make book on it! ::)
Luise, how true that we don't have to buy into another's value judgement. I understand what you are saying about learning to value ourselves. Sometimes, though, I think we're talking about our relationships being seen as "less important" rather than feeling devalued ourselves.
IMO, when the value of "less important" is placed on a person, animal, plant or object, that judgement affects the treatment of it. That's why we put landfills in the "barren" desert instead of on the beaches of Malibu, and why we trap rodents but cuddle poodles. The rodents don't buy in to that value judgement (as far as anyone knows), but they are certainly affected by it. My issue regarding being seen as "less important" by DS, DIL & DIL's FOO has more to do with how that judgement affects my treatment by them, and less about my valuing or devaluing myself.
On any of the millions of TV shows about getting organized, one of the main points about clutter and hoarding is that if you truly value something you won't let it rot or rust out in the garage. You would care for it, cherish it, and maintain it properly. What my DS and DIL think about me doesn't determine how I see myself, but what they think about our relationship is going to determine whether it rusts out in a shed somewhere or is dusted off regularly and put in a place of honor in their lives.
Whoa, deep thinking going on here. Must be all the pie :)
Yes, judgment inspires conduct, no contest. My experience is that I thought it was rational thought and believed it was deserved.
We don't have a TG celebration , so have nothing to complain about except .................
Go back 12 months when I wasn't getting to see my GD , lots of excuses buy mainly the weather .
Here we are again , winter , no snow just rain and wind !
Speaking to my DS yesterday on msngr ,'' we'll drop by this weekend for some more stuff .....will confirm after talking to
DW .''
Today he texts me , '' will wait and seee how the weather is tomorrow to see if we are coming !''
Now I hate to even think this BUT is this a case of ''here we go again ?''
My DSister who is elderly and disabled came to see me today . she lives 20 miles away , he lives 30 !
If she can brave the harsh weather (not ) , why can't they ?
I was ever hopeful of a change for the better , and I hope I am wrong .
They have had the money for the wedding , they lived here free for 5 months , they obviously
don't need to keep up the pretence any longer !
We will wait and see how this progresses . If Mohammed won't come to the mountain , then the mountain
must come to Mohammed ! My GD and I deserve better , our friendship means more to me
than petty contests of authority !
Quote from: tryingmybest on November 26, 2011, 12:00:18 PM
Begonia I'm glad to see the approach works, it's keeping me going. Doe, I got in trouble with DH at the wedding for humming the theme from "Jaws" when the MIL walked into the reception. I hope I can keep from taking her on, but I wouldn't make book on it! ::)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D If you can laugh at her, I think you have her beat!!
LL, sending good thoughts your way. I hope all goes as planned.
Luise, your post on the besotted young husband who fears his wife's "not being cute and cuddly" any more....wow! So that's what's wrong with some of these dss that we raised! Even a sulk which looks ridiculous to us (and to my dh who would either laugh at me or be angry!) melts the heart of our dss so that one of my ds kept asking, "What's wrong? What's wrong?" So much so that my other ds (before he got smitten himself) thought it was ridiculous!
As for apologizing for any little thing, enduring snappy remarks (I'm not the only one who gets these remarks; everyone does!) I'm working at stopping this...... actually walked out of the room recently, retorted once, gave a look like huh?, never once apologized! (I read somewhere in being assertive, never explain,never complain; I think also, never apologize! ((to a controlling person in my case.)) Now that's a challenge!
I'm keeping your words of wisdom, Luise, bc if helps so much to "understand" the dss we raised....and not to let their disregard devalue our worth...... work in progress for me....thank you!
I was so tickled when I finally got that I am OK just exactly the way I am. I matter because I do. And I do not have to explain, apologize or change. Whoa! What a relief!
Then I realised the same was true for everyone else. Bummer...
;D ;D ;D love it !
Yes, I am in on this one, *all in* as they say in poker. We just got back from our trip for THG with DS/DIL/GC in NY and survived the de-icing of the plane on our way there, so you can imagine a cross-country trip is expensive, not the most fun thing to do, but you do what you have to do to see the GC. We earned our badge on this holiday, I believe. So weighing in, I have to say that I have had this feeling of "less important" inside and out. I am working on the inside job now as we speak, with a supportive group here, and in context with my feelings so that I don't get sideswiped again and again. I wish I could say it will all go away someday soon, because I will have earned the respect of my DS and DIL. I think that will happen as the saying goes, *when hell freezes over*. This issue of sharing holidays is par for the course, I think, and it goes without saying that, this is how it goes, and it blows, actually. You go along to get along. And, you swallow your pride. It is what it is until it isn't anymore. I am sorry for all that pithiness, but I really do get "it" now. I think luise said it well -- and I think these issues really are beyond our control. I am choosing to not participate in the chaos or be manipulated by DIL's actions and words. I refuse to feel like a second-class citizen and have waved goodbye and let that ship sail without me. It goes and it blows. I am getting healthier though because it is more and more about me now, that is, if I am happy with what I do to enjoy the holidays. Life is short, you know? We chose to fly to NY and stay at a B&B around the corner from DS/DIL, so we could have privacy and sleep in. If plans were not made with us, we made plans. If meals were not fixed for us, no hard feelings, we ate out. My DS thought this was weird that we were not spending every waking moment and second at their apartment/home ---but you know, the relationship is built by what we do together. I am the way I am because they are the way they are. AND they are the way they are because of the way I am. Very much so. We learn from each other. So let's think again about family in a different way, we are happy to spend time together, but not every waking moment. There is only so much giving we can do for DS/DIL/GC, and then we have to take care of ourselves. So I get that I am supposed to give to myself so that I don't become needy and burdensome. After this visit, we figure that we will visit them once a year while the kids are young, and build those memories. Then, it is up to the parents to nurture our relationship by visiting us. It certainly does reflect on our relationship if they visit, call, write or not...it will grow or rust, I totally agree with pen's metaphor. Don't get me wrong, we love our GC, just that we are a different generation where we believe GC are their parents' children, with GP who love them too. I did enjoy myself, I brought activities to do with them and that was my plan, that we would make Christmas cards, handprint wreaths, individual gingerbread houses, sugar cookies, and build some memories together. I liked my part a lot, I babysat and had the place spicnspan, laundry done for when parents returned too -- I was so proud of myself that I did this with love -- it is so ME :) And that, my WWU friends, is how I am getting my groove back, and getting healthier. I am reclaiming my identity -- and like it or lump it, I do not have to be perfect. Spend time with me or not, it does matter to me, but what matters more is not what you think of me, but what I think of myself ...because...(hear the drumroll?) I AM IMPORTANT :), my feelings matter and there are people who care about me. Like my husband, my sons, friends and who knows friends I have not made yet. Let me back up a bit...we have had several issues in the past with DS/DIL, about cooking, DIL does not cook for us, remember my post about THG, I was so concerned that I would end up being expected to do all the cooking? My plan was to entertain the GC and be a support person. Pretty much that is what happened, so cannot complain. The devil is in the details, and I will not bore you with them. Just suffice it to say, I really get it. You can too! You are loved and understood. Believe me...I mentioned in passing to a stranger in NYC that we were visiting the GC and she piped up with a comment that showed me, she was a GP and going through these types of issues to some degree too. Fun to feel connected, affirmed and understood. It just is what it is, my friends. We love you, until you can love yourselves a whole lot more. Sorry for this long post, wanted to check -in, but not steal the post away.
Welcome back Smiles...and thank you for that. What a win! Sending love...
Smiles, so great to hear from you! I'm glad you are sounding strong and sure. You did well, yay!