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Problem Solving => Adult Sons and/or Adult Daughters => Topic started by: Bamboo2 on September 21, 2015, 06:34:28 PM

Title: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on September 21, 2015, 06:34:28 PM
First of all, warm greetings to Luise, who I feel I know already, from her wise and gentle posts.  I have read many forums but none as respectful and compassionate as this one.  Thank you for birthing this wonderful forum.  And thank you to the many posters who have given such helpful advice.  I have already read the Read Me First Articles and lots of posts, so here goes with my problem.

My 20 year old daughter moved out during the start of her senior year of HS to live with her controlling BF and his mom. DH and I have struggled to maintain a relationship with DD ever since.  Now DD has an apartment and moved him in, and she is taking a year off from college before she can retake a class.  She is a very hard worker, but struggles to stay ahead financially since the BF can't keep jobs or manage money.  In addition, DD's BF threatened my DH while drunk last year, causing DH to not have any more contact with the boyfriend.

We found out recently that DD let her boyfriend drive her car (he has no license), so we made her get her own car insurance policy, which is expensive.  Also, she recently asked if we would cosign on a credit card for her and I said no.  These two recent issues have led to her treating us contemptuously, icy tone of voice or one word texts, or no response whatever.  My DH sent her a letter by mail indicating that we don't owe her anything and she should be grateful for all we have done for her in the past year, which he itemized in the letter (college costs, car repairs, new tires, furnishings for dorm room, totaling over $12,000). DH wrote that she was acting like a spoiled child.  I added that we love her and want a relationship with her when she can treat us with respect. We deserve better than this.

She sent back our letter with a note at the bottom indicating she wasn't mad about the two money issues (not cosigning and making her get a separate insurance policy), but she is now mad about the letter we sent, especially DH's statement that she lacks appreciation.

What to do, Wise Women?  Let it be?  Let her contact us when she is ready?  What if this letter is the catalyst for an estrangement?  How could I live with that?  On the other hand, I know we have been extremely generous to her and forgiving of her many hurtful behaviors over the past two years.  She can be warm and loving, but also manipulative in order to get her way with us.  Those manipulative days are over for me.

True confession: the last few weeks have been more peaceful for me, since I know for sure that she won't be coming to visit when she is in town every other weekend, rather than the unknowing and trying to plan special things to compete with and/or coordinate with the many events of his large extended family.

Thank you so much for any advice you can give me, Wise Women!
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Pooh on September 22, 2015, 11:04:06 AM
Welcome Bamboo and thanks for reading the posts first.

Forgive me but this kind of reminded me of when my Son was little and I would catch him doing something he shouldn't be doing.  When I would get on to him, he would pout and I would say, "Are you mad because I got on to you?"  He would answer, "Nooooo...I'm mad because you didn't let me go outside earlier!"  I would get tickled because it was like he was trying to take partial responsibility for what he had done but still make it about me instead of him.

She may not be happy about the letter, but at least she now knows that you and DH will not tolerate being disrespected.  Frankly, when I was that age, if my BF had threatened my Dad while being drunk, that would have been the end of my relationship with BF.  I would never allow anyone to disrespect my parents like that.  I think that is something I will never understand nowadays about people. 

I personally would let her be and see if she comes back around.  But that is something only you can decide based off how personally you know her.  I actually have enjoyed the peace of the non-drama in recent years as well.
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on September 22, 2015, 01:17:27 PM
Thanks for your reply, Pooh.  Yes, this daughter knows how to turn the tables to put the blame on someone else instead of taking responsibility for her part.  And she wasn't around when the threat was made, and of course the BF lied about it and later had to ask people whether what he said was in fact a threat.  So many layers to this drama...

The only reason I would like to keep the lines of communication open is because she calls me when things are bad with him, like last month one night when he was drunk and busting her things, and she called the cops (not the first time he has done that; he is a mean drunk). But I think she always knows we will help her if/when things go south with him.
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Pooh on September 23, 2015, 08:52:50 AM
I get that, but she is an adult that has made her choices.  Which means she must also deal with the fall-out when things go badly with BF.   She may not have been present when the threat was made, but if she has had to call the cops on him herself and seen the behavior...well that's a no=brainer that she should have known it was the truth. 

One of the hardest things to do with AC is to let them fail when they create situations.  If she is still with him after she had to call the cops herself, then that is no longer a mistake on her part, that is a choice she is making and she must learn on her own to deal with the consequences of bad choices. 
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: luise.volta on September 23, 2015, 10:26:18 AM
Welcome, B. Thanks for your kind words about WWU. I agree with Pooh. Maturity is not something easily gained. I think when we create a soft place for our adult children to fall it interrupts the process of the consequences of poor judgment. Tough love is the toughest on the person giving it! Your daughter has made a choice in a partner that is unsupportive and complicates her life. She's had four years to figure that out. She knows. The letter was a place to hide behind blame. Very handy. As parents, we all have to do what we are willing to live with and our solutions are varied. My take is that we can never expect respect when we take disrespect in our stride. Your DD is in a relationship of her own choosing with a person that doesn't respect her...she passes it on to you. Truth...it's not yours. Setting boundaries is very hard and you have done a great job with the insurance and cosigning a credit card. I say, keep up the good work and let her know that you love her dearly and always will but/and you do no support her choice and are not going to help her with the fall out. Sending hugs...
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on September 25, 2015, 11:03:17 AM
Pooh, thanks for stating the obvious that eluded my husband and me...yes, DD should have known the BFs threat against my DH was real when she has been living with his bad behavior for over two years now.

Luise, I appreciate your insight about passing the disrespect on from him to her to us.  It is like kicking the dog when your boss yells at you. 

If I may ask a follow up question, it regards my concern that BF is emotionally (and financially) abusing her.  At the present time, she has no one else to talk to about this..she has made his family and his friends her entire world.  As hard as it has been, I felt that I should be the one who keeps a relationship with her AND him, so she is free to be honest with me about his abusive behaviors, instead of lying so we would think well of him, which is impossible at this point.  So my question to you is: should I tell her that I am open to seeing him still?  I can hardly fathom it after she called the cops on him. I think she would be open to seeing me again if I opened myself up to including him. 

The other piece that I should point out is she was abandoned in childhood and took care of many young and disabled children before she joined our family.  She is now taking care of her BF in a similar  way.  We have tried to encourage her to see a therapist to work on these issues from her past but she is not interested at this time.  My heart goes out to her because I know the events of her childhood, over which she had no control, are influencing her decision to stay with this guy.
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: luise.volta on September 25, 2015, 11:45:57 AM
My take is you are enabling and calling it love. I could be way out in left field, always remember to take what you want here and leave the rest. Life is not easy for anyone. I'm a senior-senior...I am 88 years old. I have learned that those who tell of perfect childhoods are those in the worst trouble. Childhood is hard. Denial can be deadly. She has a past to learn from and leave behind, like most of us. It isn't your past or your need to learn and mature, it's hers. We able to help when they were young and we often think we still can and should. However, adulthood is earned...it can't be a gift. I would remind her that she has endless proof of your love and it will never change. However, you don't love what she is doing with her life or who she is doing it with and choose to step back and live your own life to the fullest. When you put up with the abuse she directs toward you...you are affirming her doing the same thing in her relationships. There is no self respect in it and you are providing a very poor role model for her to follow. I'd let her know that if and when she wants more in life and is willing to face the pain of growing up, you are there for her. Until then, you are not going to participate in any way with her choices and their consequences. Hugs...
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Pooh on September 25, 2015, 12:06:02 PM
I can't say it any better than Luise just did.  And don't think we are picking on you.  It is very hard to separate being supportive of our AC and enabling them to continue the behavior.  We all want to be there for our AC, so we really do understand.

No one can tell you what to do, all I can do is answer your question for myself.  There is no way that I would allow someone like him in my home, or be in the same vicinity as me after threatening my husband.  If that meant I didn't get to see my own child because of that decision, then so be it.  Her choices in life do not make them your choices.  She has a right to decide for her herself what she will tolerate and so do you.  I've seen too many families, in my line of work, allow someone like that in their home to keep harmony with someone else, find themselves in the middle of a fight because of that person's behavior.  And I know myself enough to admit, if I had a daughter/son that was living with a volatile person, and was telling me all the details, there is no way I could show them any respect in person.  You don't continuously hurt someone I love and get a free pass. The best I can do is to stay out of it and not be drug into it.  Again, this is just me answering that question. 

Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on September 25, 2015, 04:21:29 PM
Thank you both for your compassionate and/but "tough love" replies.  This is what I was looking for when posting this question.  I have decided that "loving detachment" will be the plan for now.  It will seriously make life easier for my husband and me in the near term.  The holidays could bring on more drama, but you have given me some useful phrases to use, should she be in touch.  I am feeling good  about not having to see the BF again, because that would be a farce to try to show respect after all he has done.  And why should I be put through that because of HER choice?  Hugs to you, Luise and Pooh!
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: luise.volta on September 25, 2015, 04:55:00 PM
Good for you! :D
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Pen on September 25, 2015, 09:23:36 PM
Welcome, B2. Loving detachment, with your boundaries in place, sounds like a good plan. You are not shutting your DD out forever, but she knows how she has to treat you if she wants to have a relationship. Now it's up to her.

Our AC know they can pull our chains because we love them so much we'll put up with anything! Until we won't...
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on September 25, 2015, 09:38:28 PM
Hi Pen, thanks for your support.  I have gained so much wisdom from this site; I feel that it will be a source of comfort and inspiration to me as time goes on. So many others have walked a similar journey and have come out the other side, no matter how their relationships turn out with their adult children. That gives me confidence to stay the course.  :)
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on October 02, 2015, 07:20:38 AM
Back again...DD called me a few nights ago, and I brought up her "cold shoulder" treatment of us.  First she denied it, then she blamed it on work stress. Finally, when pressed, she indicated being mad about the cosign and then later about the letter we sent.  I said we did not regret sending the letter and will not accept her cold treatment of us anymore.  She said, "My mistake for calling then." And that was that.  I knew it would upset her.  Part of me felt that I knowingly pushed her into getting upset just so I could justify maintaining my peaceful distance from her, and then I read a WWU thread that really helped me put it into perspective, titled, "Has Anyone Else Deliberately Made Their Children Mad?" It was like it had been written for me! I realized what I said was done out of self-preservation.  It was an "ah-ha" moment for me.  I've taken her perspective over my own so often I've forgotten what my perspective even is, or I've relegated it to second-class status. I can't tell you how much that post, and so many others that I have copied into my journal, have given me power and insight.

Now I have some questions.  What is my next step here? Wait for some apology and acknowledgement of the "cold shoulder" treatment?  What if there is nothing forthcoming before the holidays? Continue to extend the invitations anyway? 
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Pooh on October 02, 2015, 08:16:54 AM
Your next step is to determine what your goal is?   If it's loving detachment, then you can continue to extend invitations while setting your boundaries of acceptable behavior.  But the only way to do that is to not have expectations.  That's on you.  If you can extend invitations without "expecting" things to change, then you can do it.  But if you extend the invitations and expect a response or her to suddenly change, then you will be setting yourself up for being drug back into the drama.  And if your relationship is going to be based on you receiving an apology, then you have to leave it with her to see if it ever happens, but without setting yourself up to expect it to happen.

Now, that being said.  That was my original goal with my Son, but when the invitations went out with no response from him, I eventually stopped sending invitations and basically it became a complete cut-off between us.  I didn't expect him to respond, but at the same time, after a year of no response it finally dawned on me to ask myself, "Why are you even extending the invitations then?"  So for the last two years, it's all been in his court if he ever wants to make contact again.  My goal changed after awhile to leave it in his hands, while figuring out that live goes on without him.

Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Monroe on October 02, 2015, 12:11:38 PM
Bamboo - -

Good for you, bringing up the cold shoulder treatment from your daughter.   In my opinion, you were simply holding her accountable for bad behavior.   I think to sweep it under the rug, take her call and pretend like nothing happened, everything was fine - - just creates that elephant in the room.   By holding her accountable, and setting your boundary of what is acceptable behavior - you are sending her a positive message - tough love, maybe - but you are no longer enabling and calling it love. 

I doubt you will get an apology, and you don't really need one.   She acknowledged her bad behavior was a result of anger about the letter and not co-signing.   You sent the clear message that you will not accept that kind of treatment.   You have set your boundary.  Don't hold your breath waiting for an apology.   

What you do next is your choice.   You can extend the invitations, and see if she responds and behaves appropriately.  If so, this is all history.   But you don't tolerate such behavior in the future.   If she does behave inappropriately, you reinforce your boundary.   At some point, like Pooh, you may quit calling.   But if she respects your boundary and acts appropriately in the future, I see nothing wrong with extending some invitations.   

Best wishes. 
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on October 02, 2015, 12:59:44 PM
Thanks for your advice, Pooh and Monroe.  I agree with the idea of waiting till the holidays and extending an invite.  You are right, Monroe, it would be a long wait for an apology.  She would say she already gave me one, and I did hear the words "I'm sorry" couched within a lot of other excuse-like phrases that effectively nullified it.  It wasn't the type of apology that I have modeled to her on numerous occasions, and that she has given me in the past.  She knows.

I have learned here that holding too many expectations around the holidays will just bring me down, and now that she has had some holidays with BFs family, I have gotten past that.  The first year was the hardest, but it is easier each time now.  In fact, sorry to say, it is sometimes more relaxing without her there, knowing the BF drama or memories of past BF drama that sometimes accompany her.
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: luise.volta on October 02, 2015, 01:44:38 PM
My take is the ball is in her court...hold that line...and have a life. Just saying...
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: starfire on October 11, 2015, 05:32:30 PM
Bamboo-

I want to start out by saying you sound like an amazing and strong woman, but just from reading what you wrote I can tell this situation is taking a toll on you. I think the best thing for you at the moment is distance, however let her know that if she ever needs you, you'll be there. Explain though you will not accept this man with how he is treating her because she means so much to you and you can't stand watching someone treat her that way. Let her know that while it may be good at times if it gets to the point where she has to call the police it is not worth it. She may want to take care of him but in the long wrong it will hurt them both so it be better ending it sooner for both of them. I think at the moment she needs tough love. When I was that age I thought I knew best too, enjoy the peace and I hope things get better.

Good Luck.
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on October 11, 2015, 07:57:36 PM
Hi Starfire, and welcome! Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I am feeling that distance is really helping me now.  I know DD was in town last weekend and I didn't even spend much time thinking about her.  Also, I am intentionally not looking at her bank account transactions, which my husband still has access to.  I am trying to not do/read/think anything about her that will get myself thinking in a downward spiral.  This is fairly new for me and I'm kind of proud of myself.  (Got the idea from WWU...thanks for that  ;D)  Also it gets my husband and me to refocus on ourselves; that's been so good for us!

As for the BF, I only saw him twice (in public places both times) since he threatened my husband, and not after the police incident...haven't seen her since then either, and that was a couple of months ago.  We may communicate with her about Thxgiving since we travel five hours and she'd have to plan for the time off from work to join us.  But she has not been in contact with us and I don't expect she will. 

Yes, the tough love route is the way to go.  Drawing the boundaries about our choices vs. her choices is good.  And explaining why we won't see him again.  I liked Pooh's phrasing of not giving him a "free pass" when he hurts someone I love. But I can't really say anything more to her about her ending her relationship with the BF...tried that time and time again from as many angles as I could find, believe me! Now she has to figure that out for herself and I will zip my lips and not get in her way. She knows what DH and I think already. When she decided to break up with him a couple of times this past summer, she wanted me to be there with her to comfort and support her, but then changed her mind about breaking up when he cried, pleaded and threatened suicide. (I've given her resources on how to handle someone who threatens suicide, signs of emotional abuse and resources, etc).  Good thing I haven't gone down there when she's asked me, just to have to turn right around and drive two hours back home because she changed her mind! I've learned it can take 7 or more times before she might really leave him for good, as in most abusive relationships.  I wish I would have known that the first time she broke up and moved out, about 18 months ago, instead of having my hopes dashed and my emotions run through the ringer.  Now I'm wiser and calmer, at least in that regard.  Ha ha...I should have used "Getting Wiser" as my user name...or has that been taken already?   :D  Maybe that name describes all of us  ;)

Thanks, again, wise and caring women, for all your support! 
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Green Thumb on October 27, 2015, 05:22:40 PM
Your daughter's behavior has some red flags for me and it sounds a lot like one of my daughters. I suggest you read Dr Phil's Life Code and see if any of it helps shore you up. It could be that your daughter is just spoiled but she may also be a narcissist and incapable of putting anyone other than herself first. In that case, every time you set a boundary, you flick her off. She wants what she wants and she'll do whatever to get it as others don't matter. It is her and her only. I don't think your daughter is going to get nicer, first she will escalate the negativity. You can either have the self respect of standing your ground and doing what is really best for her or you can give in and get run over time after time. If she is doing drugs or drinking a lot, her behavior will be erratic. These are things to watch for. Since BF drinks so much, I would guess she drinks alot, too. People are drawn to others who have their same patterns and 'hobbies' because their normal is the same.

It isn't easy to be going through this. Having a hateful child is very hard and I wish you peace of mind.
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: luise.volta on October 27, 2015, 06:34:17 PM
GT, if you get a moment would you be willing to go to our Homepage and under Resources, enter a short review of Dr. Phil's 'Life Code', so we don't lose track of it? I think it's what my best friend is up against with her niece and am recommending it to her. Thanks!
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on October 28, 2015, 01:59:11 PM
Hi Green Thumb,
Thank you for your reply and book recommendation.  I will check it out.  In our situation, I think we created our own monster, so to speak, esp my husband, by giving her so much.  She is very pushy when she wants something.  We have had to anticipate every possible desire of hers so we wouldn't let her walk all over us, and it is exhausting.  She has softened up with the latest boundary I initiated, and I think we are done caving in to her.  I think she will fall in line.  She does have a heart of gold, and that is the truth, which I forget sometimes.  She made me lunches for an entire year when she lived at home.  She did a lot of cooking for us. She is really caring with the disabled people she takes care of, and advocates for them something fierce!  As for the drinking, she is taking care of the boyfriend and monitoring his access to alcohol.  She is a caregiver....has been doing it for years before joining our family at age 9.  She drinks, or at least has done it, which she told me.  But now since she is parenting the BF she probably is trying to provide a good example.  He is abusive when he drinks, and that has scared her.  But she is not ready to leave him at this time and I have stopped holding my breath and just let it go and live my own life, which is the only thing I have any control over.  I'm so thankful to the WWU website, which has given me a blueprint for living my life regardless of what happens with my adult child (soon to be two adult children!). Thanks again, Green Thumb, and I am sending warm thoughts your way.   :)
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on October 30, 2015, 12:27:08 PM
Hello, all, just an update.  DD came over today to bring us a big cream pie. Yum! She also said that her BF says hi and happy Halloween to me.  (I found out later he was out in her car waiting for her...so relieved she didn't bring him in the house).  As we ate some pie, I told her that I really don't want to hear any more about BF since he has continued to hurt someone I love and I can't give him a free pass when he has continually made her life so hard.....got that choice of wording from Pooh.....thanks, Pooh.  And I said that she is an adult and makes her own choices, and so do DH and I. Got that from Luise....thanks, Luise!  She had tears in her eyes as I told her all that, but she didn't say anything in reply. She said she will be moving back to our area soon, and BFs mom is helping them find them an affordable place.  I said NOTHING...thanks to you all for that great advice!  I'm not going to ask any questions either.  The less I know, the better.  The less I say, the better.  Ignorance really IS bliss  :D. You rock, ladies!  I have made some great strides in a relatively short time, and I give so much credit to you all.  I constantly sing the praises of WWU!
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: luise.volta on October 30, 2015, 01:55:31 PM
We share...but/and YOU do the work!! Sending hugs...
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Pen on October 31, 2015, 01:58:41 PM
So proud of you, B2! It's liberating and empowering, isn't it? I love this site and all my WWU sisters :)
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on October 31, 2015, 08:26:59 PM
You've got that right, Pen.  And I have a page filled with "Penisms"...most notably something you wrote a few years ago about detachment and what that might look like in practice with a loved one.  (Those examples are so useful). I'm going to practice that dance of detachment over the holidays if needed.  I'm going to be okay, with support from my WWU friends as needed.

Thanks for being here  ;D
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Monroe on October 31, 2015, 10:08:16 PM
Quote from: Bamboo2 on October 31, 2015, 08:26:59 PM
You've got that right, Pen.  And I have a page filled with "Penisms"...most notably something you wrote a few years ago about detachment and what that might look like in practice with a loved one.  (Those examples are so useful). I'm going to practice that dance of detachment over the holidays if needed.  I'm going to be okay, with support from my WWU friends as needed.

Thanks for being here  ;D


Bamboo - could you re-post what Pen wrote about detachment?   I could use a refresher.   Thanks

Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on November 01, 2015, 08:54:40 AM
Sure...I will post it under a new thread called Loving Detachment 101.  Luise, I will put it under Adult Children, but if you want to move it to another area, feel free to do so.  I have found great info from Pen and Elsieshaye that helped clarify what loving detachment can look like, and that is what I will post on that thread.  Thanks!!
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Pooh on November 06, 2015, 08:53:56 AM
Good job Bamboo!  You did that really well.  And Luise is right, we offer suggestions but you did the hard part!
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: QuietSong on November 08, 2015, 05:49:12 PM
Bamboo,
Sounds like you are doing really well here.  I am glad for you.  Thank you for your help too.  I can't add anything to what all these wonderful gals have suggested.  But I am glad to be a newbie with you.  I just got done working my three/12's.  I am tired but feel good emotionally.  I have suffered for the last six years with this son.  I know he is an adult and can make his own choices.  I just wasn't dealing well with his choices.  First he joined the Army at age 27.  (I don't like fighting of any kind)  Then he met this woman on FB.  Site unseen.....he fell for her. 
Before all of this he and I were buddies.  We had actually become friends once he was a young man.  He had moved out, which was fine.  We continued to be buddies and would talk on the phone a couple times a week.  Even after boot camp......he would call me approx. once a week.  But then I noticed he called less and less.  I just figured he was busy doing his Army thing.  Nope.  He was busy FBing with her.  I'm not real bad with that "no woman is good enough for my son" thing.  At first........I welcomed her with open arms.  But within a couple of days I learned that she didn't give a care to what I thought.  She had hooked him and I was gonna be out of the picture.  If you have heard the new expression "he was catfished" then you'll know what I am talking about.  Learned it from a nurse at work.  Catfished = a person on the internet poses as one person but is another.  ("I am a white man.............in reality, person is a woman of another race") ad infinitum. 
This son was always naive.  Nothing I could do.  Nothing I could say or I would have totally alienated him.  Course considering he has only called me twice this year.........total alienation isn't far off is it.  No the Army doesn't keep him that busy.  He actually calls it going to work.
Anyway Bamboo..........that is a little more of my story.  No I don't call him.  I don't like being put on speaker phone without knowing it so his wife can listen to the conversation.  And no it's not one of those.......we'll all have a conversation thing.  I'm not asked or told that the speaker phone is on.  I am not respected anymore.  This is the relationship's affect on my son.
So I'm done rambling for today Bamboo. 
Thinking of all the great wise women here.   :D
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on November 11, 2015, 02:44:56 PM
Hi QuietSong,
Thanks for your post. It must be so hard when you had those years with your son as friends.  My daughter was just 17 when she met her BF, and believe me that the red flags were flying.  Even she saw them and turned away several times.  But desperation got the better of her.  She couldn't handle being abandoned again and took the guy who would never leave her.  She turned away from us, and it was almost inevitable that she would move out of our house shortly after she met him.  So we have missed out on this close adult-to-adult relationship like you had with your son.  I get why you have been hurting. Six years is a long time out of your life.  Now in some ways it is better not to hear from them so much as it doesn't perpetuate the pain, don't you think?  We can just focus on the people who are still part of our lives and the things that make us feel useful and happy.

I just learned a new phrase...catfished.  I learn something new every day.  You know the saying...fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.  Our AC have both been fooled but now their eyes are open.  Hopefully they are learning.  ::)
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: QuietSong on November 17, 2015, 06:04:10 AM
Yes Bamboo...........I too hope they are learning.  I started a new thread because I learned something new recently.  That although my DIL sends lots of cards and gifts to her FOO...........she does not do this (nor does my son) for my ES's FOO. 
I still have times where I can't believe things are they way they are.  My son was 27 years old when he met his wife.  I never ever thought he would drop 98% of his communication with me.
The first couple of years after he moved out.......were fine.  He was here in 2009 just before he left for the Army.  He never came back and ALL of his personal belongings are still here.  Yes the Army changed him a little........but before he met his wife on FB......he and I still talked approx. once a week.  Sometimes he was off for special training........but he would email me when he could.
It just never never crossed my mind that things would be this way.  It's hard to believe...........but I think he already had the ability to drop his mom before he met her.   Ya know.......maybe he was just kind of tired of the relationship........or maybe he thought now that he had a love interest he could drop mom a whole lot and he would be whatever he pictures a man to be.
:-X
Hard telling.  I'll probably never know what went thru his mind.  Doesn't matter.  I have decisions to make for myself.  ES has a new baby.  She is part of this decision I am making for myself.  I haven't decided whether I will send her gifts or not.  Once I stop all contact with them.......they may decide to give the baby's gifts away or just throw them away.  That is a waste of money.
So I haven't finished working all the details out in my head.
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Green Thumb on November 18, 2015, 01:49:19 PM
QuietSong, About sending gifts, well what I have found most helpful for me is to do what keeps me less attached to the AC and the pain. For example, if sending a gift makes me think about them receiving it, opening it, liking or disliking it, whether or not I get a text, call or thank you note. Mostly not sending gifts helps me detach and have less to think about or worry about regarding the estranged AC. Not sending gifts keeps me focused on myself and sending gifts makes me think about them. Other times I may send something small, one AC gets a magazine subscription every year (that she likes). The daughter that was so nasty at her wedding last month will not get a Christmas or birthday gift this year. Nor any contact from me. I just can't do it any longer, the time spent thinking of a nice gift, the HOPE that they like it, the dashed hope, sorrow and ostracized feeling when you get nothing in return. I am just tired of focusing on them and their alienation and being sad.
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: QuietSong on November 18, 2015, 06:15:21 PM
Thank you Green Thumb.
What you said makes sense.  I am tired of hurting too.  i may write more later.
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Bamboo2 on December 28, 2015, 05:12:46 PM
Here is an update: After that last talk I had with her in October, we didn't hear much from our daughter except an occasional call with questions related to moving back to our area and getting a job.  But she was busy behind the scenes trying to get an apartment and jobs for her and her BF, as well as moving everything, dealing with utility company issues, many adult tasks. So she called us and came over after accomplishing all of those things, just a couple of weeks ago.  She came over to visit, bake cookies, eat and chat four times in the past 10 days.  We even went to see her apartment briefly, which she so wanted us to do, and made a point of telling us beforehand that her BF wouldn't be there.  She has been nothing but considerate with us.  She even offered to get her own health insurance since it is offered with her new job.  Wow!  DH joked that she might live too close now, lol.  I don't have any expectations that things will stay this way, but it is a nice change for now.    :)
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Green Thumb on December 29, 2015, 07:23:47 AM
This is great, Bamboo2! There is something empowering about solving our life problems like she is doing on her own for herself. Happy New Year to you!
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Pen on December 29, 2015, 12:29:48 PM
Yay!
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: luise.volta on December 29, 2015, 12:37:09 PM
The same thing is true at the end of life. I was so tickled with myself that I put up my outside Christmas lights! Under a window and on a small faux tree, no climbing, of course!
And I set up all of my inside decorations, too. I'm still a demon with an extension cord!  ;D
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: Pen on December 29, 2015, 12:59:59 PM
Good for you, Luise! In lieu of a bevy of hunky young handymen to do your bidding, you are taking care of things  ;D

"Yes we can!" As long as we have an extension cord, lol..and maybe duct tape.
Title: Re: Heading toward estrangement?
Post by: luise.volta on December 29, 2015, 01:55:20 PM
P., my son, Kirk qualifies, but I love to surprise him! I actually receive a lot of care giving. My pacemaker saved my life but didn't return me to my former activity level. My meals are prepared for me, Kirk comes up to mop my floors, vacuum and scrub my tub, my neighbor drives me to doctor appointments. A friend does my laundry...am I lucky, or what?!