here i am again, trying to cope with the fact that my son and DIL are refusing communication of any kind, and whats worse, we are shut out of our GS life! i have emailed and called, no response at all. my son at one point, shortly after my grandson was born, said he would always include us in our GS life no matter what happened. my father and i were estranged, so it was important for my son at the time for his son to have grandparents. all my life i have waited to be a grandmother, hoping to share and love and spoil a grandchild. part of being a grandparent means to me anyway, is we get to just share time and precious moments, love and admire our grandchildrens growth and achievements, all the while upholding their parents wishes, which to me means, we as grandparents get to have all the fun and then let their parents do all the "raising" of the kids.
we have never over stepped our boundaries, now we don't even know what we did to be completely ignored. are they holding our GS over our heads as punishment? for what? the only thing i can think of is a situation in which i told my son about, where i was dropping off some presents for them and the baby, when i remembered she told me i was not allowed to just "drop in" on them, so to follow her rules, (talk about walking on eggshells) i parked in a parking spot just 50 feet from their door, called and said i was in the neighborhood and would be by shortly to drop off their presents, she did not answer the phone, i knew she was home though, i could see the front door open, so i gave her the benefit of the doubt, thinking maybe she didnt hear the phone, gave it about 5 mins, got out of my car to take the gifts up to the house, when all of a sudden the garage door opened, and out she drove with my GS in tow! was she leaving because she heard my message? this is how it looked to me, i do know for a fact that when i call when she is home by herself, she does not pick up the phone. my son always answered, when i asked to speak with her, he always has some silly excuse as to why she cant come to the phone or wont answer when hes not home. some things i can believe, but 4 years of her not speaking to me? she is the most rude dishonest person i know, and yet we still wish to show her what a family is! my conclusion is, she has been so hurt in her past, she doesn't trust women, or elders. her family unfortunately, has said in their own words "she is hard to deal with", her own sister wants nothing to do with her or her family, I'm not saying were perfect, we all have our imperfections, but my family has stayed intact, yes even my estranged father has come around, i will never give up hope on anyone, but i am having a hard time coping with something i first off, don't understand, and second, why are we on ignore? we wish to see our GS, my heart is absolutely broken. especially with the holidays coming!! :'(
Erma, and lgrover,
I don't know what we as human beings are supposed to do about these kinds of people? Erma, can you even imagine what your son has to put up with? I don't understand it but she is like she is. Unfortunately for us, we are the recipients of her personality. I will almost guarantee you that none of us were raised like that.
lgrover, I'm so sorry your daughter is acting like she is. My gosh, what a waste of a life. I know she's angry with herself but that doesn't really help when you're in the middle of it.
Blessing to both of you.
I am so sorry, too. Who needs this? Who can possibly understand it? It's nuts! Sending love..
thank you for your kind words, and forgive my inquiry, who is "Igrover"?
I have no idea! ???
Quotewe have never over stepped our boundaries, now we don't even know what we did to be completely ignored. are they holding our GS over our heads as punishment? for what? the only thing i can think of is a situation in which i told my son about, where i was dropping off some presents for them and the baby, when i remembered she told me i was not allowed to just "drop in" on them, so to follow her rules, (talk about walking on eggshells) i parked in a parking spot just 50 feet from their door, called and said i was in the neighborhood and would be by shortly to drop off their presents, she did not answer the phone, i knew she was home though, i could see the front door open, so i gave her the benefit of the doubt, thinking maybe she didnt hear the phone, gave it about 5 mins, got out of my car to take the gifts up to the house, when all of a sudden the garage door opened, and out she drove with my GS in tow! was she leaving because she heard my message? this is how it looked to me, i do know for a fact that when i call when she is home by herself, she does not pick up the phone.
I am sorry, erma, that you are hurting. This sounds like a very tough relationship and one where no one really wins. I have to respectfully "agree to disagree" with barelythere and Luise though. While I certainly think your DS & DIL should be handling it better than what they are and could be nicer to you than what it sounds like, I can't tell you that the instance you gave in your story is ok, because it really is not. It's really not even an inkling better than showing up
completely unannounced.
Some people (myself included) do not like unannounced company and lots of people are like this. Whether I am at home or not is irrelevant, my house could be a mess (and this really embarrasses me) or I could be....idunno, bra-less or even "coital" (sorry for the yucky thought there)? Or maybe I just don't feel like company. Some people don't even enjoy having company ever. Hard to imagine for some folks, but it's true! I know lots of people like that.
My point is, it doesn't matter "why" or how you go about doing it, when people do not want to be dropped in on, and especially when they have verbally expressed it, it is really rude to do it anyway. Maybe they are annoyed by your lack of concern for her boundaries and this is why she avoids you? Especially those boundaries she has verbally expressed and you are fully aware of. I don't know all the details, I'm just throwing out a possibility based on the instance you gave.
I don't know, if my MIL were drive to my house to see if I'm home...then call...then just show up on my doorstep 5 minutes later...I would really feel "stalked" and creeped out. But that's just me. I really value my privacy, and a lot of people do. It's not unreasonable to feel that way, eventhough your DS and DIL should probably manage it a little better.
I can't speak for everyone on this forum, but I can tell you that the more my own MIL pushed and forced her way in with no regards to our boundaries, the faster she was pushed OUT, for good. That wasn't all there was to it, but her disregard for our boundaries played a big part. I don't want to see that happen to you, I never want to see that happen to anyone. It hurts all parties involved, and believe it or not, even the DIL (even when you think she's a heartless succubus).
Maybe you should give them some space for a while? And by a "while" I mean more than just a few days until it drives you nuts that you haven't seen DS. Don't call, don't email, don't drop in (especially, Lord ESPECIALLY unannounced!). Let DS come to you? Some people can't do that, but it might go a long way in showing them you want to respect their boundaries if you can make yourself do it.
Really sorry for the novel (I have been bored at work today with little to do). My prayers are with you erma, I hope this gets resolved peacefully.
Quote from: erma on October 06, 2010, 12:42:25 PM
thank you for your kind words, and forgive my inquiry, who is "Igrover"?
Erma, while you were posting your question, lgrover posted one too. A new member, I think.
Quote from: LaurieS on October 06, 2010, 02:03:52 PM
Erma
There are some DIL's out there that would rather play hurtful power driven games then to put the same energy into being civil. You would not be forced into resorting to this had someone had the decency to answer a phone call. These are control issues, demanding notification before being allowed to step foot in their lawn, yet refusing to ever answer phone calls. Bet she accepted the gift though.
All you can do is to continue being the person you are. One day DIL might change her behavior, but if she is so self-centered that she would use her own child as a pawn, you might not have a lot of luck in the near future.... Best luck to you and your family.
Laurie, I had not thought of it as a control issue but it is. I can't imagine doing that to anyone, especially the driving out of the driveway like a demon. I think this has been asked before but what causes people to be so controlling/borderline cruel? It is tiring and you just don't want to be around them anymore.
My take on "controlling" is that people who are fearful do it. They may be afraid of change or a thousand other things. Sending love...
QuoteI don't know, if my MIL were drive to my house to see if I'm home...then call...then just show up on my doorstep 5 minutes later...I would really feel "stalked" and creeped out. But that's just me. I really value my privacy, and a lot of people do. It's not unreasonable to feel that way, eventhough your DS and DIL should probably manage it a little better.
we have always been respectful of her boundaries, i DID call her before i left my house to let her know i was going out to shop and run errands and would call when i was near their area and let her know i was coming, and IF she was not home i would leave the presents on their front porch. the day just slipped away, and on my way home ( they live 5 mins from us) i drove by their house to drop the presents off, i was tired from errands and shopping, i know, its hard to believe that older people get tired and forgetful , ;) but not wanting to upset her, i called AGAIN when i realized i didn't call from somewhere 20 to 30 mins away, out of respect for her boundaries. I'm am not "stalking" nor would i ever do such a thing. i simply forgot to call as i was driving and thought i should call before i went to the door. i would be "creeped out" too if someone was driving by my house just to see if i was home. but really, i don't give her that much power in my life. i pray for her to be whole, so she can find some peace in her heart. she is my GS mother, and for his sake and my sons, i wish her peace.
and yes, she did accept the gifts, but not a "thank you" spoken from her though. :-\
Erma, at least you know you're not alone in this :)
Quote from: LaurieS on October 06, 2010, 04:55:13 PM
Quote from: erma on October 06, 2010, 04:43:37 PM
Quote i don't give her that much power in my life.
You did everything right and you've earned my respect by not giving her that much power in your life. Of course she wouldn't thank you, seems to be a trait in totally self absorbed people. Stay true to who you are, she may eventually grow up ;D
Ditto, Erma :)
Quote from: barelythere on October 06, 2010, 09:35:54 AM
Erma, and lgrover,
I don't know what we as human beings are supposed to do about these kinds of people? Erma, can you even imagine what your son has to put up with? I don't understand it but she is like she is. Unfortunately for us, we are the recipients of her personality. I will almost guarantee you that none of us were raised like that.
lgrover, I'm so sorry your daughter is acting like she is. My gosh, what a waste of a life. I know she's angry with herself but that doesn't really help when you're in the middle of it.
Blessing to both of you.
Erma, your story just kills me because you tried your hardest to do whatever she wanted and one little false move and it's done. I swear, so hard~~! Wishing you all the love in the world.
Erma, Please take a look at this from your Daughter in law's perspective. I have been in a similar circumtance from the other side. I am the Daughter in Law in my situation. I am not trying to argue or insult you. I would like to help you. In my situation I have been estranged for over twenty years from my Mother in law. This is how it started, with the visits and the phone calls. It got worse from there. In my situation I asked for calls before visits because I had a home invasion and I am afraid when home alone. I have PTSD. My Mother in law is not the only one who was asked to call first but she is the only one who didn't listen.
My Doctor said I was having a normal reaction and making a resonable request. My Mother in law called it demeaning and making an appointment. No, this is not the only reason for our estrangement but it was the begginging of the end of our relationship with her.
we have never over stepped our boundaries, now we don't even know what we did to be completely ignored. are they holding our GS over our heads as punishment? for what? the only thing i can think of is a situation in which i told my son about, where i was dropping off some presents for them and the baby, when i remembered she told me i was not allowed to just "drop in" on them, so to follow her rules, (talk about walking on eggshells)
I had a great deal of trouble with this part. You told your Son. I feel like you told on your Daughter in law. She was a bad girl.
Second: your Daughter in law asked to be called first, maybe she is a horrible house keeper or she likes to run around in the nude, maybe she just likes privacy it is her house and that is her call.
OK, you forgot but I think to have a good relationship with your Daughter in law, if she makes a request that you call first and you disregard it you can expect it to go badly. That is her boundary and when you stopped over you broke hers.
From my experience not answering the phone/door or visiting was a defensive move, self preservation thinking. You probably made things tense in their home with tattling and in order for them both the retain peace you are being avoided.
Walking on eggshells, oh my. Listening to your Daughter in law when she requested her privacy is not walking on eggshells. It's taking into consideration someone elses feelings and being considerate, whatever her reason for having them is.
i parked in a parking spot just 50 feet from their door, called and said i was in the neighborhood and would be by shortly to drop off their presents, she did not answer the phone, i knew she was home though, i could see the front door open, so i gave her the benefit of the doubt, thinking maybe she didnt hear the phone, gave it about 5 mins, got out of my car to take the gifts up to the house, when all of a sudden the garage door opened, and out she drove with my GS in tow! was she leaving because she heard my message? this is how it looked to me,
Maybe your Daughter in law had a Doctors appointment. That is what happened to me with my Mother in law. When I told my Mother in law that I was leaving for the Doctor she yelled at me that I didn't have my shoes on. It doesn't take long to put on flip flops in fact they were in the car, something I did a lot of when I was pregnant as I was then. All that and my Mother in law didn't call first then either.
i do know for a fact that when i call when she is home by herself, she does not pick up the phone. my son always answered, when i asked to speak with her, he always has some silly excuse as to why she cant come to the phone or wont answer when hes not home. some things i can believe, but 4 years of her not speaking to me?
If you knew that your Daughter in law has a problem with you then why call or visit when your son isn't home? If you call and you would like to ask a question ask your son, he lives in the same house and if he doesn't know the answer then he can ask. Don't put her on the spot, you may think that you are being friendly but if she has a problem with you then give her space. Tell your Son to say hello to his wife when you call but don't put her on the defense by asking for her.
Please look into the stalking laws in your area. The driving past and parking and walking to there home you may find yourself in legal trouble.
she is the most rude dishonest person i know, and yet we still wish to show her what a family is!
Ouch, please don't judge your Daughter in law by what others say. Only go by what you have experienced yourself to be true. If she went by what she knew about you she could say that you were estranged from your father. Give her the benefit of the doubt as I am sure you would want done for yourself. She already knows what a family is, if you said that to her she would shut down and not open to you again.
my conclusion is, she has been so hurt in her past, she doesn't trust women, or elders. her family unfortunately, has said in their own words "she is hard to deal with", her own sister wants nothing to do with her or her family, I'm not saying were perfect, we all have our imperfections, but my family has stayed intact, yes even my estranged father has come around, i will never give up hope on anyone, but i am having a hard time coping with something i first off, don't understand, and second, why are we on ignore? we wish to see our GS, my heart is absolutely broken. especially with the holidays coming!! :'(
But, your family is not intact, you aren't seeing your GS and your Daughter in law won't speak to you.
Again don't go by what someone else tells you. You don't know what may have happened that she doesn't get along with her sister. I don't get along with my brother and he can say some pretty mean things about me but he won't tell you that he threw me down a flight of steps and almost broke my jaw with my 8th grade Math book because I caught him dealing drugs in our parents home, which is probably why I had a home invasion. Realize there are two sides to every story and give her the benefit of the doubt.
Erma, please realize that your Daughter in Law is put off by you. She may feel threathened or maybe you insulted her although unintentionally. You don't think that you broke a boundary but your daughter in law probably thinks that you did. When you went to your son and told him the situation I'm sure she was even more livid then when you popped in for a visit. Please consider calling when your son is home. Plan your visits ahead of time and give advance notice. Your son already knew there was a problem because he has given you lame excuses for why she can't/won't come to the phone. Giving her the head on approach isn't going to bring you all together as a family. It may not be the Norman Rockwell image of a family but at least you may be on friendly or friendlier terms.
Don't end up like me. It's been over twenty years and I really wish I could have had a reasonable relationship with my Mother in law. Please consider calling your son and saying I have been thinking about my visit and I wanted to apologize for the way I handled it. I understand that Daughter in law would like me to call first and I regret that I didn't. I will call first and I would like to stop by sometime when everyone is home if that would be alright. Name the day and time and then be there, on time. If they aren't available try having them name the day and time. It may not work, they may need sometime. If they don't pick up leave a message saying that you are sorry for the visit and you regret it. Tell them you will try to do better and then try. Do not ask for your Daughter in law, Do not put her on the defense. Give it time and don't expect miracles overnight. Don' t be surprised if they don't answer. With the holidays think long term not short term. I hope that you have a Norman Rockwell. Maybe not this year but maybe Easter or next Christmas.
If you are lucky enough to get that visit. Don't stay long, be pleasant. Don't be confrontational. Tell Daughter in Law you are greatful for the visit. If she refuses to be there do not say anything bad about your Daughter in law to your Son. Do not say that her request of a call is stupid. In time I hope you move past this and have a normal family relationship with all of them. Do not think that one visit has fixed everything. It may take time to lose the eggshell feeling and just feel like family.
Only you can decide if it's worth it to be nice to her try to make her feel comfortable with you. If she has already not been speaking to you for four years it's going to take some time to fix this be patient.
Good luck and I will be praying for a better outcome for you and your family.
Rosie
Quote from: Rose on October 09, 2010, 01:07:39 PM
Erma, Please take a look at this from your Daughter in law's perspective. I have been in a similar circumtance from the other side. I am the Daughter in Law in my situation. I am not trying to argue or insult you. I would like to help you. In my situation I have been estranged for over twenty years from my Mother in law. This is how it started, with the visits and the phone calls. It got worse from there. In my situation I asked for calls before visits because I had a home invasion and I am afraid when home alone. I have PTSD. My Mother in law is not the only one who was asked to call first but she is the only one who didn't listen.
My Doctor said I was having a normal reaction and making a resonable request. My Mother in law called it demeaning and making an appointment. No, this is not the only reason for our estrangement but it was the begginging of the end of our relationship with her.
we have never over stepped our boundaries, now we don't even know what we did to be completely ignored. are they holding our GS over our heads as punishment? for what? the only thing i can think of is a situation in which i told my son about, where i was dropping off some presents for them and the baby, when i remembered she told me i was not allowed to just "drop in" on them, so to follow her rules, (talk about walking on eggshells)
I had a great deal of trouble with this part. You told your Son. I feel like you told on your Daughter in law. She was a bad girl.
Second: your Daughter in law asked to be called first, maybe she is a horrible house keeper or she likes to run around in the nude, maybe she just likes privacy it is her house and that is her call.
OK, you forgot but I think to have a good relationship with your Daughter in law, if she makes a request that you call first and you disregard it you can expect it to go badly. That is her boundary and when you stopped over you broke hers.
From my experience not answering the phone/door or visiting was a defensive move, self preservation thinking. You probably made things tense in their home with tattling and in order for them both the retain peace you are being avoided.
Walking on eggshells, oh my. Listening to your Daughter in law when she requested her privacy is not walking on eggshells. It's taking into consideration someone elses feelings and being considerate, whatever her reason for having them is.
i parked in a parking spot just 50 feet from their door, called and said i was in the neighborhood and would be by shortly to drop off their presents, she did not answer the phone, i knew she was home though, i could see the front door open, so i gave her the benefit of the doubt, thinking maybe she didnt hear the phone, gave it about 5 mins, got out of my car to take the gifts up to the house, when all of a sudden the garage door opened, and out she drove with my GS in tow! was she leaving because she heard my message? this is how it looked to me,
Maybe your Daughter in law had a Doctors appointment. That is what happened to me with my Mother in law. When I told my Mother in law that I was leaving for the Doctor she yelled at me that I didn't have my shoes on. It doesn't take long to put on flip flops in fact they were in the car, something I did a lot of when I was pregnant as I was then. All that and my Mother in law didn't call first then either.
i do know for a fact that when i call when she is home by herself, she does not pick up the phone. my son always answered, when i asked to speak with her, he always has some silly excuse as to why she cant come to the phone or wont answer when hes not home. some things i can believe, but 4 years of her not speaking to me?
If you knew that your Daughter in law has a problem with you then why call or visit when your son isn't home? If you call and you would like to ask a question ask your son, he lives in the same house and if he doesn't know the answer then he can ask. Don't put her on the spot, you may think that you are being friendly but if she has a problem with you then give her space. Tell your Son to say hello to his wife when you call but don't put her on the defense by asking for her.
Please look into the stalking laws in your area. The driving past and parking and walking to there home you may find yourself in legal trouble.
she is the most rude dishonest person i know, and yet we still wish to show her what a family is!
Ouch, please don't judge your Daughter in law by what others say. Only go by what you have experienced yourself to be true. If she went by what she knew about you she could say that you were estranged from your father. Give her the benefit of the doubt as I am sure you would want done for yourself. She already knows what a family is, if you said that to her she would shut down and not open to you again.
my conclusion is, she has been so hurt in her past, she doesn't trust women, or elders. her family unfortunately, has said in their own words "she is hard to deal with", her own sister wants nothing to do with her or her family, I'm not saying were perfect, we all have our imperfections, but my family has stayed intact, yes even my estranged father has come around, i will never give up hope on anyone, but i am having a hard time coping with something i first off, don't understand, and second, why are we on ignore? we wish to see our GS, my heart is absolutely broken. especially with the holidays coming!! :'(
But, your family is not intact, you aren't seeing your GS and your Daughter in law won't speak to you.
Again don't go by what someone else tells you. You don't know what may have happened that she doesn't get along with her sister. I don't get along with my brother and he can say some pretty mean things about me but he won't tell you that he threw me down a flight of steps and almost broke my jaw with my 8th grade Math book because I caught him dealing drugs in our parents home, which is probably why I had a home invasion. Realize there are two sides to every story and give her the benefit of the doubt.
Erma, please realize that your Daughter in Law is put off by you. She may feel threathened or maybe you insulted her although unintentionally. You don't think that you broke a boundary but your daughter in law probably thinks that you did. When you went to your son and told him the situation I'm sure she was even more livid then when you popped in for a visit. Please consider calling when your son is home. Plan your visits ahead of time and give advance notice. Your son already knew there was a problem because he has given you lame excuses for why she can't/won't come to the phone. Giving her the head on approach isn't going to bring you all together as a family. It may not be the Norman Rockwell image of a family but at least you may be on friendly or friendlier terms.
Don't end up like me. It's been over twenty years and I really wish I could have had a reasonable relationship with my Mother in law. Please consider calling your son and saying I have been thinking about my visit and I wanted to apologize for the way I handled it. I understand that Daughter in law would like me to call first and I regret that I didn't. I will call first and I would like to stop by sometime when everyone is home if that would be alright. Name the day and time and then be there, on time. If they aren't available try having them name the day and time. It may not work, they may need sometime. If they don't pick up leave a message saying that you are sorry for the visit and you regret it. Tell them you will try to do better and then try. Do not ask for your Daughter in law, Do not put her on the defense. Give it time and don't expect miracles overnight. Don' t be surprised if they don't answer. With the holidays think long term not short term. I hope that you have a Norman Rockwell. Maybe not this year but maybe Easter or next Christmas.
If you are lucky enough to get that visit. Don't stay long, be pleasant. Don't be confrontational. Tell Daughter in Law you are greatful for the visit. If she refuses to be there do not say anything bad about your Daughter in law to your Son. Do not say that her request of a call is stupid. In time I hope you move past this and have a normal family relationship with all of them. Do not think that one visit has fixed everything. It may take time to lose the eggshell feeling and just feel like family.
Only you can decide if it's worth it to be nice to her try to make her feel comfortable with you. If she has already not been speaking to you for four years it's going to take some time to fix this be patient.
Good luck and I will be praying for a better outcome for you and your family.
Rosie
Don't end up like me. It's been over twenty years and I really wish I could have had a reasonable relationship with my Mother in law. Please consider calling your son and saying I have been thinking about my visit and I wanted to apologize for the way I handled it. I understand that Daughter in law would like me to call first and I regret that I didn't. I will call first and I would like to stop by sometime when everyone is home if that would be alright. Name the day and time and then be there, on time. If they aren't available try having them name the day and time. It may not work, they may need sometime. If they don't pick up leave a message saying that you are sorry for the visit and you regret it. Tell them you will try to do better and then try. Do not ask for your Daughter in law, Do not put her on the defense. Give it time and don't expect miracles overnight. Don' t be surprised if they don't answer. With the holidays think long term not short term. I hope that you have a Norman Rockwell. Maybe not this year but maybe Easter or next Christmas.
If you are lucky enough to get that visit. Don't stay long, be pleasant. Don't be confrontational. Tell Daughter in Law you are greatful for the visit. If she refuses to be there do not say anything bad about your Daughter in law to your Son. Do not say that her request of a call is stupid. In time I hope you move past this and have a normal family relationship with all of them. Do not think that one visit has fixed everything. It may take time to lose the eggshell feeling and just feel like family.
Only you can decide if it's worth it to be nice to her try to make her feel comfortable with you. If she has already not been speaking to you for four years it's going to take some time to fix this be patient.
Good luck and I will be praying for a better outcome for you and your family.
Rosie
Ask yourself if this is worth it, Erma. It wouldn't be for me. Apologize for bringing a gift and DIL not answering the phone? Come on. No relationship is worth giving up my dignity. Not even that of a son. Though if you do want one, you will have to grovel at her feet. I have a self-esteem to guard too but the way this one is arranged, I couldn't do it. DILs aren't the only ones to have PTSD.
QuoteDILs aren't the only ones to have PTSD.
Not only did you not give consideration to anything the poster said...and she had some good points and showed some places where it would be easy for miscommunication to occur, you deliberately minimized the reason the previous poster gave for her ptsd (being the victim of a violent attack whee she didn't know if she would live or die) and intimated it was silly.
Quote from: 1Glitterati on October 09, 2010, 04:25:59 PM
QuoteDILs aren't the only ones to have PTSD.
Not only did you not give consideration to anything the poster said...and she had some good points and showed some places where it would be easy for miscommunication to occur, you deliberately minimized the reason the previous poster gave for her ptsd (being the victim of a violent attack whee she didn't know if she would live or die) and intimated it was silly.
No, it's not silly and I didn't deliberately do anything. I am a survivor of horrific things. We are talking about Erma and her situation, not mine and not the posters. If Erma's DIL is a survivor of horrific things too, then my sincere apologies. I highly doubt it, though.
hello rose,
sorry you have PTSD. have you gotten some counciling for it? i have, for many years. im also disheartend that you havent communicated with you MIL for over 20 years. EVERYBODY changes, and it really saddens me to think that someone is missing out on a life of someone who may have changed. but this isnt about you, this is about my son and DIL. which i love very much, both of them. she is a wonderful house keeper and cook. we cook together over the holidays. we make cookies, fudge and all the trimmings. she has started her own traditions, to which im very respectful. my own DD does none of these things, (she cant boil water ;)) so to have a DIL who loves most of the same things i do is a joy. also, this has not been the pattern in the past, they have been MARRIED for 4 years. my DIL has no disorders what so ever. she comes from LARGE money. she has no horrific past, that we are aware of, encluding my son. when they started dating at age 17, she was at my home alot. when my son went to collage, far away, she would come here and sit, bake, cook, "hang out" until my son came home. we talked alot. she was a lovly girl. she still is, i thank god my son found his true love. she loves him like no other. she has been good to him, and for him. he is good for her. they compliment each other completely.
we, on the other hand, are simple people. we live in a farming community, rual area. you know, bake pies for church bake sale, put lights on the goats for the christmas parade and such.
we are hard working people, we cant take time away for cruises, trips to belize, ski trips to aspen co., travel 60 miles to go for a 300 dollar dinner.
no, im not jelous, i came from money too. we enjoy our life here. its simplicity at its best.
the problem started when we couldnt join my son, my DIL and her family on a week long fishing trip that would have cost us more than a ""i tell ya! it went down hill form there. by this time they were happily married, and went on many vacations with and without her parents. we were invited the first 6 months worth of outings, a couple we went on, and the rest, well, we simply could not afford to go. as time went on, thye stopped inviting us, which was ok, bcuz i just felt bad having to say no, we cant afford it. so, one day, we invited son, dil, and her family to our little cottage, (which is really a trailer by a lake, but i adore it) and we were told no. ok, no is ok for a while, but after a couple years of "NO" gets amnoying. so we called a family meeting at our house. which is what we did when we needed to work out issues in our family unit. they came, we all communicated, i asked why they didnt want to come to our little lake house, (which my kids grew up with, and loved) she said , what, that shack? really? " i was like a deer in the headlights, blink, blink. i asked my hubby, outloud, did she just insult us"? my hubby didnt say a word, it got quit, and then DIL said, and i will never forget the words, "WELL MY WHOLE FAMILY THINKS YOUR TRASH TOO"!
Quote from: erma on October 09, 2010, 07:22:06 PM
hello rose,
sorry you have PTSD. have you gotten some counciling for it? i have, for many years. im also disheartend that you havent communicated with you MIL for over 20 years. EVERYBODY changes, and it really saddens me to think that someone is missing out on a life of someone who may have changed. but this isnt about you, this is about my son and DIL. which i love very much, both of them. she is a wonderful house keeper and cook. we cook together over the holidays. we make cookies, fudge and all the trimmings. she has started her own traditions, to which im very respectful. my own DD does none of these things, (she cant boil water ;)) so to have a DIL who loves most of the same things i do is a joy. also, this has not been the pattern in the past, they have been MARRIED for 4 years. my DIL has no disorders what so ever. she comes from LARGE money. she has no horrific past, that we are aware of, encluding my son. when they started dating at age 17, she was at my home alot. when my son went to collage, far away, she would come here and sit, bake, cook, "hang out" until my son came home. we talked alot. she was a lovly girl. she still is, i thank god my son found his true love. she loves him like no other. she has been good to him, and for him. he is good for her. they compliment each other completely.
we, on the other hand, are simple people. we live in a farming community, rual area. you know, bake pies for church bake sale, put lights on the goats for the christmas parade and such.
we are hard working people, we cant take time away for cruises, trips to belize, ski trips to aspen co., travel 60 miles to go for a 300 dollar dinner.
no, im not jelous, i came from money too. we enjoy our life here. its simplicity at its best.
the problem started when we couldnt join my son, my DIL and her family on a week long fishing trip that would have cost us more than a ""i tell ya! it went down hill form there. by this time they were happily married, and went on many vacations with and without her parents. we were invited the first 6 months worth of outings, a couple we went on, and the rest, well, we simply could not afford to go. as time went on, thye stopped inviting us, which was ok, bcuz i just felt bad having to say no, we cant afford it. so, one day, we invited son, dil, and her family to our little cottage, (which is really a trailer by a lake, but i adore it) and we were told no. ok, no is ok for a while, but after a couple years of "NO" gets amnoying. so we called a family meeting at our house. which is what we did when we needed to work out issues in our family unit. they came, we all communicated, i asked why they didnt want to come to our little lake house, (which my kids grew up with, and loved) she said , what, that shack? really? " i was like a deer in the headlights, blink, blink. i asked my hubby, outloud, did she just insult us"? my hubby didnt say a word, it got quit, and then DIL said, and i will never forget the words, "WELL MY WHOLE FAMILY THINKS YOUR TRASH TOO"!
Erma..... :'(
sorry, hit the post button, wasn't finished. so anyhow, that's what started it, she is embarrassed i think. i can forgive, but she wants to have our DS all to herself i truly believe. if he chooses to not speak to us, then that's his choice. but my other post in sons and daughters really tells it all.
i am a very perceptive person, i read people very well. there are no "miscommunications" and no misunderstandings. i know when someone insults me, feels ashamed of me,and that's what she feels of us. we, as i said, are simple people, hard working and forthwrite.
the secret here is, we as women, can hold each other up or bring each other down. i chose to trust the women in my circle, and it gets smaller as we age, but we are all the same, we want to be loved and needed by our family's. that's it, simple, kinda like us. i hope your heart heals rose. i hope my DIL and mine do too. i pray for that each day. just trying to get some advice and success from other women who have been there. so i do thank you for your input rose. i will try to see her side, but as far as an apology, no. i didn't do anything wrong. and for the record, as she screeched out of the driveway with my grandson in tow, she was seen at TARGET" by my dear friend and neighbor, who was overjoyed to see my GS, (we saw each others kids grow up, and she let me know she saw my GS and DIL), so no, there was no doctor appointment. and last but not least, i do not judge, its not my job.
Quote from: erma on October 09, 2010, 07:54:10 PM
sorry, hit the post button, wasn't finished. so anyhow, that's what started it, she is embarrassed i think. i can forgive, but she wants to have our DS all to herself i truly believe. if he chooses to not speak to us, then that's his choice. but my other post in sons and daughters really tells it all.
i am a very perceptive person, i read people very well. there are no "miscommunications" and no misunderstandings. i know when someone insults me, feels ashamed of me,and that's what she feels of us. we, as i said, are simple people, hard working and forthwrite.
the secret here is, we as women, can hold each other up or bring each other down. i chose to trust the women in my circle, and it gets smaller as we age, but we are all the same, we want to be loved and needed by our family's. that's it, simple, kinda like us. i hope your heart heals rose. i hope my DIL and mine do too. i pray for that each day. just trying to get some advice and success from other women who have been there. so i do thank you for your input rose. i will try to see her side, but as far as an apology, no. i didn't do anything wrong. and for the record, as she screeched out of the driveway with my grandson in tow, she was seen at TARGET" by my dear friend and neighbor, who was overjoyed to see my GS, (we saw each others kids grow up, and she let me know she saw my GS and DIL), so no, there was no doctor appointment. and last but not least, i do not judge, its not my job.
Erma, I feel a wisdom in you by what you write that's not there with most people. I love that...we need it. I wish I could make this go away for you but I can't. Your Daughter in law is a very selfish, young woman. I wouldn't want to be in her shoes for anything because this son she has might grow up and marry someone just like her and it won't be pretty and you don't need to justify yourself here to any one. Stay strong. With all the blessings I can send to one dear lady. :)
BT :) :) :) thank you
so, one day, we invited son, dil, and her family to our little cottage, (which is really a trailer by a lake, but i adore it) and we were told no. ok, no is ok for a while, but after a couple years of "NO" gets amnoying. so we called a family meeting at our house. which is what we did when we needed to work out issues in our family unit. Perhaps this is a generational thing, perhaps not...I'm 40...so I may or may not be a different generation. Being summoned to a "family" meeting would not go over well with me. In fact, it would make me quite angry. First I would be shocked--along the lines of excuse me? was I just summoned like I was a child and asked to explain myself for daring to live my own life? And by someone who has no right to summon me? Then I would have gotten mad. Then I would have not gone. Being summoned to a meeting like that would forever change the tone of the relationship for me. Also...I don't consider my inlaws "family" in the same way I consider my parents family--which is why being summoned to a "family" meeting would make me feel so bent out of shape (in addition to the fact that I'm an adult and my parents no longer have any dominion over me). I'm also really sure dh doesn't consider mine his family either. they came, we all communicated, i asked why they didnt want to come to our little lake house, (which my kids grew up with, and loved) she said , what, that shack? really? " i was like a deer in the headlights, blink, blink. i asked my hubby, outloud, did she just insult us"? my hubby didnt say a word, it got quit, and then DIL said, and i will never forget the words, "WELL MY WHOLE FAMILY THINKS YOUR TRASH TOO"! I think it was tacky and mean of her to say that. I don't see a reason for that to have been said.
Erma, your DIL's rudeness and rejection of you are way out of line. If DS stands up for his FOO perhaps she'll come around, but it's unlikely you'll get an apology. Don't allow her to ruin your relationship with your DS, or your happy memories of your cabin, so ignore her rudeness as the result of poor parenting. Who's trashy? The inconsiderate one...Perhaps, as Glitter said, being summoned to a family mtg was too much for your DIL, but I kind of think she'd already made up her mind about you long ago.
I can't imagine me or any of my friends ever saying anything like your DIL's "trash" comment to anyone. Unbelievable. I agree with Glitter that it was uncalled for. My DIL comes into our home and criticizes our "out-dated" appliances and lack of square footage. When I visit people who live a less lavish life style than I, I find things to compliment and would never say anything disparaging about their home. Perhaps that's generational as well.
Very few of our DILs consider us "family" but I think they have different expectations for their DHs. My DIL's FOO has tried to absorb my DS in without even considering his, or our, feelings. He's had to stand up for himself and us many times since it never occurs to them that they're overstepping their boundaries. I don't think they get that he might not consider them family just as DIL doesn't consider us family. That pesky double-standard again :P
Best wishes to you. I'm sorry your DS isn't able to enjoy the cabin right now. Let's hope things change for the better. Our DIL is starting to come around to the idea that her DH might want to continue enjoying the "trashy" (?!??) activities and places he loved so much as a child, but he had to stand up for his right to do so. There's hope, but it starts with DS.
Erma,
I was not implying for you to grovel as was said earlier. If you/she wants to call it that so be it. All I know is that four years ago she called you a b!tch and I doubt seriously if you don't know why she said that. Whether it was justified is debateable. This has been going on for at least three years. It has festered and will only grow. Denying that you did anything wrong even to yourself is not going to fix it. I am sorry that she ran to Target but given the circumstances I'm not surprised, she's angry and you think it's alright to break her boundaries as long as you bring gifts, furthering her anger and resentment.
What I thought was if you apologized it would at least get them to listen to you. Possibly open the lines of communication and maybe as a family you could fix this and both sides could apologize. If she were the one I was talking to I would have said the same thing to her.
My husband used to take the kids to visit his Mother much the way your son did earlier this month. Because his Mother couldn't stop insulting our children and me he stopped. He said she picked on the oldest daughter because she looked like me and she picked on our oldest son because he wasn't as tall as his cousin and she frequently comments even now to them negatively about me. We also live in a small community, we see her infrequently. She has had several opportunities to show us she has changed, we shop the same stores and go to the same social events. We attended some family events over the years. We went back for a Christmas and to see my Husband's family together. Nothing had changed. In fact after speaking to other family members I have been told she is just the same and they are considering estrangement also.
As far as my PTSD yes as I mentioned earlier my Doctor said that my behavior and my request were understandable and appropriate. BUT, even if I hadn't had PTSD my Mother in law coming here without calling after being asked not to was not understandable or appropriate.
You can stand your ground and never apologize and never admit to yourself or your son that what you did was wrong and inconsiderate, just like my Mother in law, and when your GS graduates from High school maybe he won't go to his commencement because you will be there like mine did. Maybe someday you will have a GD and someday she will be asking her father how can she have her wedding and invite her Aunts and Uncles and not invite her Grandmother so she won't ruin it like she did her graduation, just like my Daughter did. As I said think long term.
As I said your choice only you can decide if it's worth it.
Hi Erma...
the only way to find out what is bothering people is to discuss it, talk it out....and I don't think you were wrong in calling a family meeting...I think it was wise and showed that you wanted to discuss it and communicate your feelings and were also ready to listen to they're feelings about the whole situation.
Your DIL handled it wrong...she probably felt like she was being put on the chopping block, b/c it was her and her family that didn't want to come. So, she had an outburst....which was so wrong, rude and belittling and I can totally understand your hurt...and had every right to be hurt....
However, to her, and I'm trying to look at this from a younger person's view, who doesn't have a lot of confidence, is immature, and used to money....someday, Erma, she will be sorry for what she said...
When she said that, what did your son say? Did they storm out directly after, what happened from that point on....
I bet she felt like she was being backed into a corner....and she became so angry and defensive, and she felt like she had to defend her parents actions...by not coming.....
What I'm trying to say here, is...I side with you totally, but, the fact of the matter is...do you want to honestly forgive and go forward? If you do, and if you want a relationship with them....free of any anger or blame, you are going to have to one day come to terms with her outburst and not see it as an attack against you, but anger and she said the first thing that came to her mind...
All right, now you know, she doesn't want to go, for what ever reason...however, you must push forward if you want a relationship with her, son and GC. Erma, I'm not saying you should swallow dignity, and she said some very hurtful things...But when Glitter said, she doesn't think of her in-laws as family....to be honest, a lot of DIL's feel that way...inlaws are people to, they want to be loved and they want DIL to feel like family...and we actually believe once our son's marry that nothing is going to change, and we'll continue as things were....however, DIL doesn't feel that way....
My God Erma, I was convinced my DIL was narcissistic...she is not...she is the most caring person...she just had her own way of doing things....when they first got married, we both made mistakes....but after time, I decided that life was not going to be right until I did what I had to do, to make this work...she was afraid of me, afraid I didn't like her, she actually thought I hated her for things she had done, and all both of us wanted was to be friends...
Regardless of what your situation was before son and she were married, once they marry, it's different, she is now the head of her house hold and wants boundaries...it's nice if you all can vacation together, however, it's a fact that most, not all but most DIL's want to be with they're family more...it's a comfort zone for them...it's what they are used to, and they are very close with they're mothers...
What we MIL's do, and we of course have every right to expect things to be like that, but we don't understand, why they don't want to be with us...so we start thinking it must be us, and what did we do...and we're uneasy and angry when we are around them, not to mention, resentful b/c we're hurt b/c they are not spending time with us....it hurts awful....and our son's go where they're wives want to be....
So, my question is, do you want to continue to be hurt, angry disallusioned, or do you want to try and figure this thing out?
If we try and understand why our DIL's feel the way they do...it's a much easier go...they have different perspectives, different traditions, values and feel differently about things. I bet you any money, she is very embarrassed about what she said, or will be someday, and could kick herself for saying what she did.
I'm not siding with her, by any means...but, lets together, try and figure out her MO, and by doing so, perhaps we can save you a whole lot of grief...pain, anger, blame...
Like Glitter explained, how she would feel if there was a family meeting called, that is probably how she felt...doesn't make her right or wrong...she just doesn't understand your family culture and felt trapped....hurt, and probably to blame...it's like cornering a mama bear, when you corner an animal, they're going to lash out, especially when they're young, and that is what she did....
So, lets take this further and discuss it remembering, there is no right or wrong here...but perspectives and culture...remembering, no matter what your life was like with her before they were married, for some reason it changes after they are married...
Lets be honest...do you call them a lot, do you stop by a lot...lets examine your behavior with them and see if we can figure this out together? Remembering...I'm not in the least saying your wrong, what I'm trying to do is figure this out, so that perhaps you can deal with her in a loving way, forgive her somehow and move forward...
In other words, I could post and say, she was wrong for saying what she said, she is wrong for being so thoughtless and selfish, rude, etc....but that isn't going to make your situation any better, however, we can discuss it and try to look at both sides here, and try and figure out, what is going on in her head, and why she feels the way she feels and maybe that will give you a whole different perspective of the situation, which might make things better...if you take the lead...
And I have to add, that Rose, gave some very productive views....as well as Glitter...and in order to help our situations along, we can't stay caught in this blame mode, and call our DIL's names, or say we didn't do anything wrong...We might not have done anything wrong in our way of thinking, but in order to figure it out, and move on, we have to view things from a different perspective, in order to understand why? Which means self exploration....putting ourselves in her shoes, and also considering, that while they're words or actions hurt us, it may not have been meant the way it sounded...
Apparently your DIL was raised with money, and going to a trailor to her at this point in time, might be beneath her, but, hopefully as she ages, in time, and it may take time, she will be very sorry she said that, it probably caused unrest at home with your son, and maybe she was defending her parents but really didn't feel that way?
Wasn't right, surely it wasn't however, why did she react the way she did?
What happened after she said what she said? What has occurred since then?
Hugs
Creme
hello all,
thanks for all the input. i will try to answer some questions here. first let me say, i don't call them but maybe twice a month, if that. i NEVER stop by their home. we have gone to their home thru invitation only, except the time i dropped off gifts we purchased while on vacation for them. i had them sitting in my front room for a month before i took them over there. i wished for my GS to have them before he outgrew them. :P
yes I'm quit sure my DIL and DS grew up in different cultures so to speak. that's OK by me, you know the old saying "two people can look at the exact same thing and see something totally different". i get that, i knew this as a child. we did not back her in a corner although she may have felt that way. i could see that, but no need to be rude. i guess maybe its the generation thing. she not only attacked me, but my family and our way of life. after she said that, we put a stop to it, and yes, they left shortly after, my DS hugged me good by, and we never spoke of it again. i don't ask about what goes on in their marriage, none of my business. unless my son WANTS to tell me or say something to her for that matter, we can do nothing but wait. every one changes. i think she will in time , but for now shes immature and selfish and selfabsorbed. i believe we all are at times in our lives, its called self preservation. NEVER COMPREMISE YOURSELF.
i have been call a "B" by the best of them, sometimes for good reason, sometimes no reason. so if we all were to be "real" here, we must look to ourselves first. which is what i do. i don't claim to be perfect or to know it all, if i did, id be "six feet under" so to speak. meaning nothing left to learn. i believe she wants our son all to herself, to cut him out of our lives. she became a different person the minute she said "I DO". in my heart of hearts, i truly believe she thinks our family, among others, is beneath her. I'm hurt, but not disillusioned, i claim my part of everything i do, if i didn't, well, frankly id be acting like her. i have been humbled by them as well, but i am no ones doormat. i believe she holds her head high, but is in the clouds. she cant see yet.
no she doesn't feel were her family. sad. i also am a DIL. love my MIL though. shes said hurtful things to me, not out of spite, just the way she is. for me its not about blame or shame. that goes back to my childhood thought of, 2 people look at the same exact thing and see some thing totally different. its all in how we perceive things, as well as how we handle our attitude towards things.
i will say, she is good to my son. she loves him and respects him. so for her to have picked him, i must have done something right while raising him! ;) ;) ;)
so in wrapping up my novel here, (sorry) i have faith that it will come around, just not as fast as i would like, (whaaa) i do miss them, all of them, because i know how sweet she CAN be.
Quote from: erma on October 10, 2010, 09:11:10 AM
hello all,
thanks for all the input. i will try to answer some questions here. first let me say, i don't call them but maybe twice a month, if that. i NEVER stop by their home. we have gone to their home thru invitation only, except the time i dropped off gifts we purchased while on vacation for them. i had them sitting in my front room for a month before i took them over there. i wished for my GS to have them before he outgrew them. :P
yes I'm quit sure my DIL and DS grew up in different cultures so to speak. that's OK by me, you know the old saying "two people can look at the exact same thing and see something totally different". i get that, i knew this as a child. we did not back her in a corner although she may have felt that way. If she felt that way, then you DID back her into a corner. I would totally be offended to be summoned to a family meeting when it wasn't my family. And, even if it was...I would be offended to be summoned to a meeting as if I were a child. As an adult I do NOT answer to my parents. They are no longer in charge of my life. I am. i could see that, but no need to be rude. i guess maybe its the generation thing. she not only attacked me, but my family and our way of life. after she said that, we put a stop to it, and yes, they left shortly after, my DS hugged me good by, and we never spoke of it again. i don't ask about what goes on in their marriage, none of my business. unless my son WANTS to tell me or say something to her for that matter, we can do nothing but wait. every one changes. i think she will in time , but for now shes immature and selfish and selfabsorbed. i believe we all are at times in our lives, its called self preservation. NEVER COMPREMISE YOURSELF. And just as you have the right to never compromise yourself...so does she. It's a two way street.
i have been call a "B" by the best of them, sometimes for good reason, sometimes no reason. so if we all were to be "real" here, we must look to ourselves first. which is what i do. i don't claim to be perfect or to know it all, if i did, id be "six feet under" so to speak. meaning nothing left to learn. i believe she wants our son all to herself, to cut him out of our lives. she became a different person the minute she said "I DO". in my heart of hearts, i truly believe she thinks our family, among others, is beneath her. And...she may. There isn't anything you can do to changer her idea of that. She'll have to realize she is wrong on her own. I'm hurt, but not disillusioned, i claim my part of everything i do, if i didn't, well, frankly id be acting like her. i have been humbled by them as well, but i am no ones doormat. i believe she holds her head high, but is in the clouds. she cant see yet.
no she doesn't feel were her family. sad. i also am a DIL. love my MIL though. shes said hurtful things to me, not out of spite, just the way she is. for me its not about blame or shame. that goes back to my childhood thought of, 2 people look at the same exact thing and see some thing totally different. its all in how we perceive things, as well as how we handle our attitude towards things.
i will say, she is good to my son. she loves him and respects him. so for her to have picked him, i must have done something right while raising him! ;) ;) ;)
so in wrapping up my novel here, (sorry) i have faith that it will come around, just not as fast as i would like, (whaaa) i do miss them, all of them, because i know how sweet she CAN be.
well, it sounds like your doing all the right things, your patient and your able to view another perspective....and you are able to see your own flaws...I like your attitude...it is one of truth...meaning, you are certainly able to look at both sides....but it's never about you or DIL doing anything wrong, it's about perspective and cultures...and your parents raised you well...
My only suggestion is to be patient, yes, she will mature in time...and someday hopefully she will apologize, however, and I'm certain you already know this, some people can't come out and say, "I'm sorry I was wrong" I don't know why, but it's the most difficult thing for someone to say, but in they're actions they apologize...and I like the way you refuse to compromise your identity, it's you, who makes up that very special person.
Yes, patience and kindness....when she is around you, make it a point to give her a compliement, or ask her for a recipe, or something to that effect.
One thing that comes to mind, and this may not at all pertain to you, I'm simply thinking out loud...
Once when I was visiting, my son and I became excited about somewhere where we were going, and were talking about it...this was a long long time ago...and it never dawned on me until just recently....anyway, she said in a kind of hurt voice...."may I go along" and I looked at her shocked adn said, "of course".....and I bet she was hurt, b/c DIL's know how MIL's do like to speand quality time with they're son's once in a while, but during that visit, she was working and DS and I did go to lunch together after spending an afternoon touring...
but for her to actually think that she might not be welcome????? Really surprised me, b/c I automatically thought of her as an attendee, for lack of a better word...anyway....I think we should all keep this in mind...
so, it sounds like you yourself are on very firm ground...and doing the very best you can for the time being....
however, do come in and vent, cry, ask, or just read, which may help....
Your a very understanding lady...and you were very fortunate to have parents who taught you about different perspectives....
I struggled with that when I was young and thought if someone didn't agree with me, they were attacking my personality...and it was pointed out to me, which helped a great deal, but you were far ahead of the game....
big hugs and thanks for hanging in there with me, without taking offense...
also, our DIL's in here can give you a perspective, b/c they are DIL's and I've found them to more times then not give wise advice...don't take them as if they are insulting you, but trying to help you look at things from your DIL and son's perspective...it always helps me...as you say, we're not 100% perfect, never will be, life is a constant work in progress, however, if we are able to view perspectives of others, we move along much faster...and believe me, it took me a long time.... ;D
Creme
QuoteGlitter If she felt that way, then you DID back her into a corner. I would totally be offended to be summoned to a family meeting when it wasn't my family. And, even if it was...I would be offended to be summoned to a meeting as if I were a child. As an adult I do NOT answer to my parents. They are no longer in charge of my life. I am.
Glitter....it's not about Answering to your family...it's about communicating to each other your feelings and why you feel that way....I do get why your saying this, b/c I do feel her DIL felt like you do....however, I cannot speak for Erma, but as for me, no matter who it is...I want to sit down and communicate to each other where we might have hurt each other or what we might have said that set us off on the wrong foot...doesn't make anyone right or wrong...and, after being to counseling, and reading, that the reason two people get off on the wrong foot is due to lack of communication...one person cannot express they're true feelings to another due to fear of loosing that relationship....
My counselor told me, "do you know most divorces occur due to the lack of an ability to communicate to each other?"
I think Erma was raised in a family that believed in communicating problems, and a family that did call family meetings, deciding things together, talking things out...however, it is not your culture, which you have stated how you would feel...and maybe you feel that way, b/c your parents dictated to you, what you should or shouldn't do...
However, Erma did unknowingly back DIL into a corner, I'm sure she felt that way, however, it wasn't Erma's intent, it was her culture, what she was used to, how she was raised...and that is one thing DIL needs to realize, DIL feels it was wrong to do...she felt targeted, probably like she was being blamed...and was upset...and she lashed out as a protective mechanism....
So, Glitter, what do you suggest now? Say you were her DIL, what do you think Erma could do to help DIL understand that she wasn't attacking her, but doing what her parents did, and she did as a parent.
My family did the same thing Glitter, we discussed things together as a family, found out how everyone felt about an issue...and went from there....if someone's feelings were hurt, we made each other aware of it...however, as a child, I didn't get it...I thought I was being blamed...and wrong...but I wasn't...
Quote from: cremebrulee on October 10, 2010, 10:12:39 AM
QuoteGlitter If she felt that way, then you DID back her into a corner. I would totally be offended to be summoned to a family meeting when it wasn't my family. And, even if it was...I would be offended to be summoned to a meeting as if I were a child. As an adult I do NOT answer to my parents. They are no longer in charge of my life. I am.
Glitter....it's not about Answering to your family...it's about communicating to each other your feelings and why you feel that way....I do get why your saying this, b/c I do feel her DIL felt like you do....however, I cannot speak for Erma, but as for me, no matter who it is...I want to sit down and communicate to each other where we might have hurt each other or what we might have said that set us off on the wrong foot...doesn't make anyone right or wrong...and, after being to counseling, and reading, that the reason two people get off on the wrong foot is due to lack of communication...one person cannot express they're true feelings to another due to fear of loosing that relationship.... You cannot communicate with someone who doesn't want to communicate with you. I think the family approach is a great approach when the kids are kids. When they are adults...I don't think so. I don't think so because the parents are no longer in charge of the family. Family meetings are nice...but ultimately decisions are made by parents because they have the ultimate responsibility and power. That responsibility and power end when your children are grown. Perhaps it would have gone over better if the dil had been asked..."Do you want to discuss this?" rather than being summoned. As I said...from my pov as a dil...that would REALLY make me angry.
My counselor told me, "do you know most divorces occur due to the lack of an ability to communicate to each other?" I don't disagree with that. Lots of divorces also occur over money issues and inlaw issues. Parents have no place whatsoever inside their child's marriage. (That's just a general comment...it has nothing to do with Erma or her post.)
I think Erma was raised in a family that believed in communicating problems, and a family that did call family meetings, deciding things together, talking things out...That may be. Fine. Cool. Dil was not raised in that family and it's silly to think she would be responsive to that way of doing things. I'm also still harping on the issue of calling a family meeting for the purpose of chastising an adult child and their spouse. That would not ever fly with me, and frankly I think it's amazing that a parent thinks they have the right to do that kind of thing to an adult child. however, it is not your culture, which you have stated how you would feel...and maybe you feel that way, b/c your parents dictated to you, what you should or shouldn't do... Actually...my parents were in charge when I was a child. As it should be. It was their job, they were the parents. As an adult...I am in charge and responsible for what I do. I neither want nor need my parents to tell me what to do or how to do it. If I want advice, I'll ask for it--and I have in the past and I'm sure I will in the future.
However, Erma did unknowingly back DIL into a corner, I'm sure she felt that way, however, it wasn't Erma's intent, Intent doesn't matter, results do. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I'm sure we've all been guilty of doing something with good intent and having it turn out badly, just as I'm sure we've all been victims of someone doing it to us. it was her culture, what she was used to, how she was raised...and that is one thing DIL needs to realize, DIL feels it was wrong to do...she felt targeted, probably like she was being blamed...and was upset...and she lashed out as a protective mechanism....
So, Glitter, what do you suggest now? Say you were her DIL, what do you think Erma could do to help DIL understand that she wasn't attacking her, but doing what her parents did, and she did as a parent. I don't know how to fix it. Perhaps offering her the option to sit down and talk as opposed to summoning her? Leave the ball in her court. It would then be dil's choice to discuss the issues or not. And, be prepared that dil may not want to discuss the issues.
My family did the same thing Glitter, we discussed things together as a family, found out how everyone felt about an issue...and went from there....if someone's feelings were hurt, we made each other aware of it...however, as a child, I didn't get it...I thought I was being blamed...and wrong...but I wasn't...As I said...I think that approach works good with children, not adults.
Glitter, thanks so much for what you've offered...I do understand where you coming from...and why you feel the way you do....
Maybe it will help Erma in the future to understanding how to communicate with her DIL...and she has learned that, that is not the way to do it...
I think Erma was concerned with getting to the bottom of the problem and moving on and did it the only way she knew how, never realizing what you've written here in refrence....and it just sadly went from bad to worse.
I think Glitter, you've offered some very good points...that we must consider, if we want to make it with out DIL's.
Family culture does not always mean that our DIL's are going to understand it or take it the way it is intended...
Thanks so much for your idea on how Erma might be able to change it...
What do you think Erma, or anyone else here for that matter? Is it worth considering?
See I can understand how you might feel Erma, b/c I think family meetings are great...however, they may certainly not be great for everyone...and can now see Glitter's point. To me it's like theorpy, getting the things out that hurt and insulted one another...but I really do believe your DIL took it like she was being attacked....
and I haven't had any family meetings with my son or DIL, I"ve addressed the person I've had the problem with, which is what I've learned works better for us...
my parents were the ones who had family meetings, aunts, uncles, children etc...
Creme
Quote from: cremebrulee on October 10, 2010, 10:40:43 AM
Glitter, thanks so much for what you've offered...I do understand where you coming from...and why you feel the way you do....
Maybe it will help Erma in the future to understanding how to communicate with her DIL...and she has learned that, that is not the way to do it...
I think Erma was concerned with getting to the bottom of the problem and moving on and did it the only way she knew how, never realizing what you've written here in refrence....and it just sadly went from bad to worse.
I think Glitter, you've offered some very good points...that we must consider, if we want to make it with out DIL's.
Family culture does not always mean that our DIL's are going to understand it or take it the way it is intended...
Thanks so much for your idea on how Erma might be able to change it...
What do you think Erma, or anyone else here for that matter? Is it worth considering?
Creme
FTR...I do want to say that Erma was exactly right earlier in pointing out that two people can see the exact same thing and come away with two different interpretations.
What I've learned over the years is just to flat out ask the other person if I'm understanding them clearly. Ex "Is this what you think/feel in regards to ______________?" No...it's not comfortable, but it gets easier.
Also...as far as the lake thing...what about saying "If you'd like to come up to the lake, just let us know a good time for you."? or even asking "If you're not fond of the lake, what are some other things you'd want to do together occassionally?"
Now...the kicker with that is...you have to be prepared for the answers. If there's a possibility dil will say...well...you know...I really don't want to do anything with you, I just don't feel that way about you...then it's gonna hurt. You have to be willing to hear and deal with the answer when you don't know if it's going to be good, bad, or ugly.
I still believe that some MILs/DILs are just looking for excuses to cut us off. They know going in that they are going to sabotage the relationship and get their way. In Erma's situation that may be why DIL is being obstinate and unyielding. Glitter is right; you cannot make someone communicate if they don't want to; you're hitting your head against the proverbial brick wall.
As I said previously, DS is the key here. If he stands up for himself and his FOO, DIL may choose to come around. If not, if the stakes are too high, his FOO is out. Sad, sad, sad. Who knew that DILs had that much power? I think we knew about the wrath of some MILs (jokes abound) but experiencing my DIL's powerplay suprised me when it suddenly happened. Thank goodness my DS stood up for us...things are improving.
Dear Erma,
Something about your story hurts me for you. You had said that you kept asking your son and DIL to come by your cabin and they said no and no became a long, long time. I know there were issues with your not being able to go with them places you couldn't afford. I was just wondering if her family was going also on these trips? The reason I'm asking is that, this is just a thought, do you think her family felt slighted by you not going and didn't comprehend that you couldn't afford it, just that maybe you didn't want to be with them??
You never know what people might be thinking. Relaying an incident we had with our first son: her parents invited us to go to dinner with them. We went and enjoyed it. Our son comes to us about 3 weeks later and says, totally out of character for him!!!, "WHY ARE YOU AND DAD NOT INVITING DIL's FAMILY OUT TO DINNER!!!!!!!!?????? THEY INVITED YOU!!!!!!!" (I'm shouting because he had his voice raised) This was before they married and obviously she had told him her parent's feelings were hurt and to come tell us off.
You know? I honestly had to ask myself why we hadn't? It wasn't anything at the time except we just hadn't gotten around to it. (we paid for our portion anyway, it wasn't like they paid for it) I think that hurt their feelings. I wouldn't have given it one single thought myself. I don't count calls or invitations. Others do. I was just wondering if your DIL's family got their feelings hurt because you couldn't keep up with their lifestyle??? Grasping for straws here.
Maybe her outburst that you were trash and her whole family thought so too was based on that? I guess what she said would hurt to the core so much that I might never get over it. Your son and GChild are in the mix now so you have a vested interest in how it turns out. I am so sorry this happened. We come from a land of "calling a family meeting too", not that we've used it but that's how things were done back when and it is only a term, not a command.
Bless you, Erma. I've thought of you all day. We might have some expectations and maybe they're out of line sometimes but we at least would like to be treated with dignity. Running off when you drove up had to hurt. How do you move past this? How are you going to? You sound a lot stronger than I am so I suspect you will be okay. You're a great person, I can tell. :)
You make good points, BT. There may be many reasons. I've been thinking of Erma today as well. Bless us all.
thanks BT!! :) and yes my son needs to be the one to intervine. as far as "calling a family meeting" that IS just a term. we did not command them in anyway, first we asked IF they would like to talk at all, we ASKED if there was a time and place THEY would like to meet. and glitter your absolutely right about DIL. it is not how she was raised. we however, believe in communication. you see, no one can be forced into believing or changing something that either they are not ready for, or that they hold their beliefs in. that IS why we communicate with people period. to have the understanding of their side of the story. never playing the blame, shame game, just trying on the "other persons shoes". and believe me, we make sure they know their welcome at the lake ANYTIME. they are aware they are welcome, anytime. maybe we are to available. maybe that's it.
we DO NOT give advice unless asked. even then its "take what you want, leave the rest" and as far as money goes, with her parents i mean, i don't believe they felt anything. we are not involved with them, and they not us. not good, not bad, indifferent. and yes, my ds and dil go on frequent trips and vacations with her family. she was all to happy, according to my son, to tell her family we couldn't afford to go.maybe one day they will go with us. to see how our family interacts too. but all in time. then again maybe not. which would hurt.
yes, things she says hurt, but i have seen the "other side" of her. so, i understand when she lashes out, she is preserving. as you said glitter, maybe she just doesn't like me, or our family, and maybe she just wants nothing to do with us. that would really hurt to the core. but if so, for me anyway, i would like to know, and why. what set her off, why her family thinks were "trash"?. she certainly didn't give us that impression when she spent countless days , nites, weeks, here before they were married. like i said, the minute she said "i do" things really changed quickly.
my intire issue is, why the abrupt change, not just in communication, but attitude. we are not doing anything different than before the marriage. i am not one of the meddling mothers, i raised my children as i was, "well pick you up and dust you off once, the next fall is up to you."
now mind you, i think it goes without saying, this is for adult children. i have my life as they do theirs. just sometimes would like to share it.
Quotei would like to know, and why. what set her off, why her family thinks were "trash"?. she certainly didn't give us that impression when she spent countless days , nites, weeks, here before they were married. like i said, the minute she said "i do" things really changed quickly.
my intire issue is, why the abrupt change, not just in communication, but attitude. we are not doing anything different than before the marriage.
Did you ever get a chance to ask those questions? Or did her throwing out the trash comment pretty much end the conversation?
Do you think it would cause WW3 if you asked her "why the abrupt change, not just in communication, but attitude. we are not doing anything different than before the marriage"?
How is it that once you become a mother-in-law it's almost assumed that you can no longer understand what it's like to be a daughter-in-law? Why is it that upon becoming a MIL every move you make is now objectionable?
Erma, I still say that your actions while delivering the gifts was acceptable. Your DIL had the option of answering your phone call and at that point she could have requested that you not come by, or come by at a later time. She could have reached you on your cell had she realized that she needed to desperately get to an appointment, Target or whatever she was rushing off to do.
While many DIL's (not yet MIL's) have stepped up and offered some sound advice, there seems to be a theme which is that you will play by their play book, or else. You did not commit a deployable act of violence, you were dropping off gifts. Of course I would attempt to call my DIL (as you did) before stopping by, and she would do the same, but if for any reason those calls were missed and she stopped in unexpectantly, I would not become angry. Some previous postings have included numerous reasons for why this would ruin their relationship with a person but I really feel that it is a control issue. I haven't asked but I'm sure some DIL's will post their feelings, but do they require this type of demand communication from all their friends and relatives or just their IL's? If one of their own family members were to stop in would she/he be treated in the same manner?
If my house was not as clean as I would have liked it to be when I had unexpected company, I would simply say..oh well you caught me on a sloppy day. If I was braless, I'd say, hey come in I need to change quickly and leave it at that.
You can open the lines of communication without handing out an insincere apology. And if you did then the other party (DIL) would not feel backed into a corner to issue her own apology. I don't think running around apologizing for every breath you take is the answer, nor is walking on egg shells... I'm sure when Erma tried to get everyone to open the lines of communication she was not treating anyone like a child.
no, the trash comment was just that. trash. so moving on, yes, i did ask if she was upset with us, (me) or my family, why we were on permanent ignore. her response was " i dont know what your talking about, I'm not ignoring anyone'. and if we call them now, which is less and less, maybe 2x a month, he answers the phone, but is only allowed to talk to us on speaker phone. this i truly dont understand. she only started this after they were married. i will not and have not spoken ill of her to DS ever. that would hurt him as well as us. so where the insecurity comes from is not us, something in her past maybe. but her refusal to admit the obvious to us, really? actions always speak louder than words. maybe you can shed some lite on that for me.
you are so wise laurie! thank you thank you thank you!!!! i love your words of wisdom! :) :) :)
Quote from: erma on October 10, 2010, 03:34:03 PM
you are so wise laurie! thank you thank you thank you!!!! i love your words of wisdom! :) :) :)
Laurie is very wise and tells it like it is. Thank you for that!! I like that she doesn't tippie toe around the subject.
Erma, you mentioned that your son had to have the speaker phone on. Yes,
some of the DILs demand that. They want to hear whatever tone you're using and if you say anything about them, I guess. For Heaven sake, I don't get that but it is sometimes the way it is. You'll find a recurring theme here of them changing radically when they get married.
Some have practically taken up residence with the family before the tie the knot and for some reason they get territorial after they do.
Does your son know what she said about "trash?" You can't tell him!! He will tell her and that will give her enough ammunition to push you over. I have a basket full of things done to us by both DILs, done and said that we've kept to ourselves. If we tell them, we're out forever. This sounds like a huge conspiracy but it isn't, it's just a heartbreaker. Kind of an insidious war where words and actions are used instead of swords but kill just the same.
QuoteWhile many DIL's (not yet MIL's) have stepped up and offered some sound advice, there seems to be a theme which is that you will play by their play book, or else.
Laurie...I think that is true. I'll even admit to being like that a good bit in my life.
Why? (I'm speaking in a general life sense here...not singling out inlaws...but talking about EVERYONE in my life.) Because I've reached a point in my life where I'm tired of being around unpleasantness or things I just don't like. Or putting up with a bunch of drama from a person who sees no need to change their behavior. Sucking it up for the greater good never really made me feel anything but put upon. Especially as I didn't feel it (the sucking up and compromising thing) was a reciprocal thing with many people in my life. This is not to say I don't compromise...because I do compromise sometimes with other people. I just happen to do it with the people who reciprocate.
Maybe I have gotten harsher as I've gotten older. But I can tell you this...I"ve gotten HAPPIER. As I eliminate drama and b.s. from my life it just gets better and better.
Hey Glitter.. I agree with you... I don't have time for BS and I'll tend to lay it on the line.. but I do try to be understanding at the same time.... I know some hate when you say the word expectations here, but I do expect to be treated the way in which I treat others, and I think most sound minded people have that same expectation, don't you?
yes, yes, we've a basket full ourselves. certainly not something we can share. :-X maybe just age difference. seems alot of young folks are this way. not all, but alot. i would have never even thought of treating my MIL this way. no, i do not believe she treats her friends and family as she does us. she interacts with them in ways she used to, with us. before marriage i mean. so heartbreaking. i feel in some ways, like i not only lost (for lack of a better word) my son, but DIL too, and now we have a beautiful GC involved. i feel the way laurie does, if someone drops by, their here to see me, not my dishes in the sink, or braless persons, HA! i just had a visual, now that's funny! ;D
i think really i just need an answer, just communication, all of it. the good, the bad, the ugly. like glitter says, their adults, they should be able to communicate like one. right?
Quote from: Laurie on October 10, 2010, 04:12:23 PM
Hey Glitter.. I agree with you... I don't have time for BS and I'll tend to lay it on the line.. but I do try to be understanding at the same time.... I know some hate when you say the word expectations here, but I do expect to be treated the way in which I treat others, and I think most sound minded people have that same expectation, don't you?
Yes...I do think most people want to be treated as they treat others. I think the problem with expectations, however, is that people don't have the same expectations. For example...holidays are a huge area where expectations differ and feelings get hurt.
Example...I've never had a Tgiving at my house---in nearly 20 years. I wanted to do it this year. I can't. My mom is having surgery before and can't climb stairs...there are stairs into my house. No other way to get in. So...I'll go to her house and cook. Next year...It's at my house...period. I'd like my parents to come...but if they don't want to drive...then oh, well...see you next weekend.
I'm not going to spend my children's holidays doing what other people want. It seems to me that many people do what their parents and grandparents want at the holidays when they have small children...and figure they'll get to do what they finally want when they have grandchildren. I'm not going to operate under that assumption. I'm choosing to operate under the assumption that DH and I will likely be the afterthought when it comes to holidays---that the boys and their wives will want to do their own things. If they want to come, they'll come. If they invite us, we'll go. Otherwise dh and I can do something fun together. If things remain inclusive...that'll be great and it'll be gravy. If not...I won't have my feelings hurt because I don't have the expectation that they'll rearrange their holiday schedule to suit me.
Quote from: 1Glitterati on October 10, 2010, 04:21:56 PM
Quote from: Laurie on October 10, 2010, 04:12:23 PM
Hey Glitter.. I agree with you... I don't have time for BS and I'll tend to lay it on the line.. but I do try to be understanding at the same time.... I know some hate when you say the word expectations here, but I do expect to be treated the way in which I treat others, and I think most sound minded people have that same expectation, don't you?
Yes...I do think most people want to be treated as they treat others. I think the problem with expectations, however, is that people don't have the same expectations. For example...holidays are a huge area where expectations differ and feelings get hurt.
Example...I've never had a Tgiving at my house---in nearly 20 years. I wanted to do it this year. I can't. My mom is having surgery before and can't climb stairs...there are stairs into my house. No other way to get in. So...I'll go to her house and cook. Next year...It's at my house...period. I'd like my parents to come...but if they don't want to drive...then oh, well...see you next weekend.
I'm not going to spend my children's holidays doing what other people want. It seems to me that many people do what their parents and grandparents want at the holidays when they have small children...and figure they'll get to do what they finally want when they have grandchildren. I'm not going to operate under that assumption. I'm choosing to operate under the assumption that DH and I will likely be the afterthought when it comes to holidays---that the boys and their wives will want to do their own things. If they want to come, they'll come. If they invite us, we'll go. Otherwise dh and I can do something fun together. If things remain inclusive...that'll be great and it'll be gravy. If not...I won't have my feelings hurt because I don't have the expectation that they'll rearrange their holiday schedule to suit me.
Dear Glitter,
I think you really do try to understand where we are coming from and I'm grateful. I hope you do keep those expectations under control because you're right, we do have them. I never knew I had them until all this happened. I was raised where it was family first and I know lots of people even today who still think that way. I envy them because many are young mothers who keep the inlaws and their own families as loved ones in their lives. Blessed be the tie that binds....
In your future (you mentioned your boys) I hope you can not get your feelings hurt if you have to take a backseat. I don't think you will get them hurt because you know maybe what is coming. We just didn't. It was a shock to us, a lot of us on this board. The last thing we needed was to be cut out. Some of us were already wounded in our lives so cut out of the only family we had was too much. I'm not cut off from our kids. Thank you, God. It's just that I never know what might be coming around the corner. You never know what might set off the A-Bomb.
Great going, you! :)
I see your point Glitter.. when I speak about expectations it usually has a basis of courtesy and respect. Once kids reach adulthood and even before then, they have the right to spend their holidays as they wish. If something very special was taking place (way above the ordinary) then I'd hope that they would make a little special effort if we requested it.
You are way past the point of getting to try your hand at the Thanksgiving meal.. my MIL became wheelchair bound and I also had stairs leading to my front door.. but a couple of strong guys took care of that issue. I know this year my kids are going to be spread all over.. I may have one son and his gf here along with some of my dh's family. I love my SIL, I'll cook, and she'll keep the wine glasses full.
I'm sure in my previous post you've seen where I have an issue with my DIL always inviting her family anytime we are invited to visit with the kids..And I do have the expectation that we should be able to visit without her whole family involved each time.. I sum that up to mutual respect but I'm sure others would see it differently.
Talk to you all soon.
Quote from: barelythere on October 10, 2010, 04:35:28 PM
Dear Glitter,
I think you really do try to understand where we are coming from and I'm grateful. I hope you do keep those expectations under control because you're right, we do have them. I never knew I had them until all this happened. I was raised where it was family first and I know lots of people even today who still think that way. I think that what is happening is that many people today consider family the nuclear family. To them...they ARE putting their family first. Their spouse and their kids. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, ggrandparents, cousins, etc are considered extended family. I think there is a generational shift in how family is defined. I envy them because many are young mothers who keep the inlaws and their own families as loved ones in their lives. Blessed be the tie that binds....
In your future (you mentioned your boys) I hope you can not get your feelings hurt if you have to take a backseat. I don't think you will get them hurt because you know maybe what is coming. This is my hope. We just didn't. It was a shock to us, a lot of us on this board. I can see where things could have been/were shocking to some. I can see that. The last thing we needed was to be cut out. Some of us were already wounded in our lives so cut out of the only family we had was too much. I'm not cut off from our kids. Thank you, God. It's just that I never know what might be coming around the corner. You never know what might set off the A-Bomb.
Great going, you! :)
Quote from: 1Glitterati on October 10, 2010, 05:00:49 PM
Quote from: barelythere on October 10, 2010, 04:35:28 PM
Dear Glitter,
I think you really do try to understand where we are coming from and I'm grateful. I hope you do keep those expectations under control because you're right, we do have them. I never knew I had them until all this happened. I was raised where it was family first and I know lots of people even today who still think that way. I think that what is happening is that many people today consider family the nuclear family. To them...they ARE putting their family first. Their spouse and their kids. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, ggrandparents, cousins, etc are considered extended family. I think there is a generational shift in how family is defined. I envy them because many are young mothers who keep the inlaws and their own families as loved ones in their lives. Blessed be the tie that binds....
In your future (you mentioned your boys) I hope you can not get your feelings hurt if you have to take a backseat. I don't think you will get them hurt because you know maybe what is coming. This is my hope. We just didn't. It was a shock to us, a lot of us on this board. I can see where things could have been/were shocking to some. I can see that. The last thing we needed was to be cut out. Some of us were already wounded in our lives so cut out of the only family we had was too much. I'm not cut off from our kids. Thank you, God. It's just that I never know what might be coming around the corner. You never know what might set off the A-Bomb.
Great going, you! :)
I have seen the DILs say that the Grandparents, etc. were considered extended family. I never thought of it like that and am sure most other MILs/FILs didn't either. We just thought we were all family. I guess that's where this big divide has ocurred. We don't know the rules but we're learning. Thank you, that really answers a lot of questions that made us feel so hurt.
Quote from: Julia on October 10, 2010, 07:40:50 PM
Erma, I am not a MIL or DIL.
What goes around comes around..if I was you I would give them so much space they will wonder if you dropped of the face of the earth.
[color=navy]Julia, wanted to ask you about these two sentences. It's almost like a riddle... if I'm not a MIL or DIL what can I be ;D ... Welcome even if you're not a M/D-law
If it didn't break your heart, giving them endless space would be a great option. I certainly don't have to speak to my kids and there 'significant others' daily by any means but it's great to share their accomplishments and disappointments. Unfortunately the space is sometimes a requirement.
[/quote][/color]
Laurie i can see the confusion. Actually I am a dil. My mil lives in another state and we very rarely see her. She never appeared to be to interested in any of us and I could have made her phone calls to us and very occasional visit into a drama, and make her life and ours miserable but I didn't have the time, inclination or energy to be bothered instead I was polite and had very little to do with her. She has serious dementia now and refuses to leave her home even though she is incapable of looking after herself. She lives 900k's away from us, has no neighbours she can call on for help because she isolates herself and she alway's was "just better than everyone else." She told my dh and os that if she doesn't answer the phone after 2 day's she would have died!! and to organise to get her. How selfish, and my husband has spent the last 2 xmas's with her instead of his family so she isn't left on her own at Xmas. That makes me wild because it puts my dh on the highway at Xmas time for 16 hours. Her 2nd husband died years ago.
My mil told us years ago she would take us to court to get visiting rights. OK.. that is because we would not put our young children on a commercial flight to visit her. Safety issues etc. Anyhow that scenario blew over. She is racist which annoyed me as she would push her opinions on our young children. Politics, religion, don't get me started. I always felt i wasn't good enough for her ds, she told my 13yr old she was going to be short and fat just like her!! She checked my glasses for cleanliness before she used them. I could go on, it did bother me when my children were small but it didn't consume my whole being and my life. If she turned up unexpected I would have asked her to ring first. If she set a time and was little late or early I would think she can take me as I am bra or not, grubby kids, unwashed dishes, if she didn't like it she could go home. I honestly just didn't feel like a "real dil" just because she is absent I suppose. I think some mil's can "try" to hard ( not mine though)
I have a really great relationship with my mum.
The thing that really bugs me and causes me stress is she insists on vacuming the house and cleaning the oven everytime she comes here to visit (about 1x month) she does the same with her dil (I don't know what dil thinks of that she might be pleased it is getting done.) My dp came to stay while we went on holidays and when i rang my dm and dd were cleaning all our windows without asking!! i do advise mil and dm to ask before doing dil housework, if she says no chances are she means no. She will ask if she needs your help.
Not being a mil myself yet (my eldest is 20) I can imagine how dreadful it would be to be cut out of gc lives. Absolutly heartbreaking, I was not implying it was easy to give space, i just hope for erma's sake, ds dil contact her after a few weeks and arrange a visit.
[/quote]
I'm sorry about your Mother in law. I just want to say something about doing things when we're not permitted or hadn't asked first. Most of us have been "doers" all our lives. We think we're helping when we're doing so maybe if you can, overlook your Mom and let her have a little joy if that's what she's getting by doing the windows? We don't know any better, some of us, so chalk it up to stupidity and enjoy the view . :)
I just want to say something about doing things when we're not permitted or hadn't asked first. Most of us have been "doers" all our lives. We think we're helping when we're doing so maybe if you can, overlook your Mom and let her have a little joy if that's what she's getting by doing the windows? We don't know any better, some of us, so chalk it up to stupidity and enjoy the view . :)[/b]
[/quote]
yes BT you are absolutely right, i do always appreciate and thank my mum, but when she does housework for me I think to myself she must thinks I'm useless or not coping, I will look at it differently from now on. Stupitity now way!! just kindness
Quote from: Julia on October 10, 2010, 10:09:07 PM
I just want to say something about doing things when we're not permitted or hadn't asked first. Most of us have been "doers" all our lives. We think we're helping when we're doing so maybe if you can, overlook your Mom and let her have a little joy if that's what she's getting by doing the windows? We don't know any better, some of us, so chalk it up to stupidity and enjoy the view . :)[/b]
[/color]
yes BT you are absolutely right, i do always appreciate and thank my mum, but when she does housework for me I think to myself she must thinks I'm useless or not coping, I will look at it differently from now on. Stupitity now way!! just kindness
[/quote]
Hey Julia,
It doesn't mean we think you're useless and not coping! We think we're helping and we love it.
Back to the op....I've got to agree with Rose, and by the way, Rose was a new poster, new member, she came in to give her feelings and opinion and I don't believe it was polite or kind in any way, to view her as anything other then a member of this forum, and not a DIL/MIL....she gave her opinion, and we may not agree with it, however, after her very first post here, her post was answered in a way that made her feel like she was not welcome...and her feelings were brushed under the table. I for one don't think that's a way to represent Luise and this forum....I also think it's important to remember, we're not ever going to always agree with each other, and that's ok, but it's not ok to insult someone because we disagree with them, or, b/c they are a DIL/MIL....we are people, human beings, and not one sided or against each other....
I agree with Rose...after reading the OP's story, there has been problems with DIL, I don't know why, but as several have tried to explain, there are problems, that we know....no one is saying anyone must let go of they're dignaty or identity....however, if your having problems with someone and you want to fix it, you don't completely ignore they're feelings and proceed as you always have. A bell should sound in your head saying, hey, there is something wrong here, and I've got to fix it.
So, Erma knew her DIL was not answering her phone, and again, I'm not saying her DIL is right but common knowledge tells you, if someone is avoiding you, it means they don't want you to stop over unannounced, they don't want you to call...period. To go ahead and do it anyway, is wrong....and just gives her DIL more reasons to be upset.
It's like after reading all your posts...just b/c your a MIL, it seems like that gives us the right to do anything we want to do, regardless? If someone isn't speaking to me, answering they're phone, I'm certainly not going to go over to they're home uninvited, and certainly not going to drop off gifts, gifts are the last thing on that DIL's mind at present....
Being a MIL, doesn't entitle anyone to overstep boundaries...regardless....if the DIL is being unreasonable or not. That is still the DIL's home...not ours...and we are guests there only.
I agree that this particular DIL is acting improperly and is being mean, but why? Is it b/c she is immature, unreasonable, spoiled, what or she feels that her MIL has done some things in the past that has upset her? What is the root of the problem....? That has got to be addressed before assuming that anything else Erma does is the right thing to do...DIL is angry at Erma for a reason...and that doesn't make DIL's feelings any less valid then Erma. What we MIL's don't realize is, just b/c son married her, doesn't mean we are automatically accepted as a friend/mother, mil, etc...and that is her home, her comfort zone, her place that she can and should feel safe and secure and we should remember, we are guests....no more and no less, and to assume that its ok to walk in someone else's home and do windows, clean, etc...is wrong....if we first ask, then that's different...however, to just do things without being given permission to do is, is rude, unthinking and a total lack of respect for the home owner, your DIL, along with your son....that home, doesn't give any MIL a freeee card just because son lives in it....and while so many here talk about respect, respect first, has to be earned....and second, DIL's deserve respect as well....
I don't think Erma's Dil is being mature or considerate about this, but if I know someone is like that, I'm certainly not going to walk up to her home as if everything's all right and leave gifts....I'm first going to try and resolve the problem between us.....
Erma, I've posted before that I believe your doing everything right, except that part....I suggest, you not push it...and just give her time....continue to try to talk to her, but don't assume that it's ok to call when your son is not home, if she's not answering the phone, she's saying "I don't want to talk to you, I'm upset with you?" So, why is she upset, that is what you have got to find out and resolve, before you take any liberty to just stop by unannounced...and if she isn't grown up enough to discuss it with you, then go to your son and ask him....or call him, let him put you on speaker phone and ask them both what is going on? Why is she upset with you, and you would like to discuss it?
Adding, I really think we should all find Rose's post...and go over there and try to bring her back....her feelings were really hurt, and we must remember to watch what we post, so as not to upset people or insult them, especially a brand new poster, that is no way to welcome her or anyone, to discount they're feelings.
Just my 2 cents....
Creme
Quote from: cremebrulee on October 11, 2010, 04:34:19 AM
Back to the op....I've got to agree with Rose, and by the way, Rose was a new poster, new member, she came in to give her feelings and opinion and I don't believe it was polite or kind in any way, to view her as anything other then a member of this forum, and not a DIL/MIL....she gave her opinion, and we may not agree with it, however, after her very first post here, her post was answered in a way that made her feel like she was not welcome...and her feelings were brushed under the table. I for one don't think that's a way to represent Luise and this forum....I also think it's important to remember, we're not ever going to always agree with each other, and that's ok, but it's not ok to insult someone because we disagree with them, or, b/c they are a DIL/MIL....we are people, human beings, and not one sided or against each other....
I agree with Rose...after reading the OP's story, there has been problems with DIL, I don't know why, but as several have tried to explain, there are problems, that we know....no one is saying anyone must let go of they're dignaty or identity....however, if your having problems with someone and you want to fix it, you don't completely ignore they're feelings and proceed as you always have. A bell should sound in your head saying, hey, there is something wrong here, and I've got to fix it.
So, Erma knew her DIL was not answering her phone, and again, I'm not saying her DIL is right but common knowledge tells you, if someone is avoiding you, it means they don't want you to stop over unannounced, they don't want you to call...period. To go ahead and do it anyway, is wrong....and just gives her DIL more reasons to be upset.
It's like after reading all your posts...just b/c your a MIL, it seems like that gives us the right to do anything we want to do, regardless? If someone isn't speaking to me, answering they're phone, I'm certainly not going to go over to they're home uninvited, and certainly not going to drop off gifts, gifts are the last thing on that DIL's mind at present....
Being a MIL, doesn't entitle anyone to overstep boundaries...regardless....if the DIL is being unreasonable or not. That is still the DIL's home...not ours...and we are guests there only.
I agree that this particular DIL is acting improperly and is being mean, but why? Is it b/c she is immature, unreasonable, spoiled, what or she feels that her MIL has done some things in the past that has upset her? What is the root of the problem....? That has got to be addressed before assuming that anything else Erma does is the right thing to do...DIL is angry at Erma for a reason...and that doesn't make DIL's feelings any less valid then Erma. What we MIL's don't realize is, just b/c son married her, doesn't mean we are automatically accepted as a friend/mother, mil, etc...and that is her home, her comfort zone, her place that she can and should feel safe and secure and we should remember, we are guests....no more and no less, and to assume that its ok to walk in someone else's home and do windows, clean, etc...is wrong....if we first ask, then that's different...however, to just do things without being given permission to do is, is rude, unthinking and a total lack of respect for the home owner, your DIL, along with your son....that home, doesn't give any MIL a freeee card just because son lives in it....and while so many here talk about respect, respect first, has to be earned....and second, DIL's deserve respect as well....
I don't think Erma's Dil is being mature or considerate about this, but if I know someone is like that, I'm certainly not going to walk up to her home as if everything's all right and leave gifts....I'm first going to try and resolve the problem between us.....
Erma, I've posted before that I believe your doing everything right, except that part....I suggest, you not push it...and just give her time....continue to try to talk to her, but don't assume that it's ok to call when your son is not home, if she's not answering the phone, she's saying "I don't want to talk to you, I'm upset with you?" So, why is she upset, that is what you have got to find out and resolve, before you take any liberty to just stop by unannounced...and if she isn't grown up enough to discuss it with you, then go to your son and ask him....or call him, let him put you on speaker phone and ask them both what is going on? Why is she upset with you, and you would like to discuss it?
Adding, I really think we should all find Rose's post...and go over there and try to bring her back....her feelings were really hurt, and we must remember to watch what we post, so as not to upset people or insult them, especially a brand new poster, that is no way to welcome her or anyone, to discount they're feelings.
Just my 2 cents....
Creme
Creme....
I don't post much anymore, I know...but the 4 or 5 times I have I have been ignored. New posters don't have to be treated any better than the old ?
I do NOT agree with Rose...
I agree with all the others...
I expect to be treated the same way I treat others...with respect and courtesy.
Quote from: RedRose on October 11, 2010, 07:08:09 AM
Quote from: cremebrulee on October 11, 2010, 04:34:19 AM
Back to the op....I've got to agree with Rose, and by the way, Rose was a new poster, new member, she came in to give her feelings and opinion and I don't believe it was polite or kind in any way, to view her as anything other then a member of this forum, and not a DIL/MIL....she gave her opinion, and we may not agree with it, however, after her very first post here, her post was answered in a way that made her feel like she was not welcome...and her feelings were brushed under the table. I for one don't think that's a way to represent Luise and this forum....I also think it's important to remember, we're not ever going to always agree with each other, and that's ok, but it's not ok to insult someone because we disagree with them, or, b/c they are a DIL/MIL....we are people, human beings, and not one sided or against each other....
I agree with Rose...after reading the OP's story, there has been problems with DIL, I don't know why, but as several have tried to explain, there are problems, that we know....no one is saying anyone must let go of they're dignaty or identity....however, if your having problems with someone and you want to fix it, you don't completely ignore they're feelings and proceed as you always have. A bell should sound in your head saying, hey, there is something wrong here, and I've got to fix it.
So, Erma knew her DIL was not answering her phone, and again, I'm not saying her DIL is right but common knowledge tells you, if someone is avoiding you, it means they don't want you to stop over unannounced, they don't want you to call...period. To go ahead and do it anyway, is wrong....and just gives her DIL more reasons to be upset.
It's like after reading all your posts...just b/c your a MIL, it seems like that gives us the right to do anything we want to do, regardless? If someone isn't speaking to me, answering they're phone, I'm certainly not going to go over to they're home uninvited, and certainly not going to drop off gifts, gifts are the last thing on that DIL's mind at present....
Being a MIL, doesn't entitle anyone to overstep boundaries...regardless....if the DIL is being unreasonable or not. That is still the DIL's home...not ours...and we are guests there only.
I agree that this particular DIL is acting improperly and is being mean, but why? Is it b/c she is immature, unreasonable, spoiled, what or she feels that her MIL has done some things in the past that has upset her? What is the root of the problem....? That has got to be addressed before assuming that anything else Erma does is the right thing to do...DIL is angry at Erma for a reason...and that doesn't make DIL's feelings any less valid then Erma. What we MIL's don't realize is, just b/c son married her, doesn't mean we are automatically accepted as a friend/mother, mil, etc...and that is her home, her comfort zone, her place that she can and should feel safe and secure and we should remember, we are guests....no more and no less, and to assume that its ok to walk in someone else's home and do windows, clean, etc...is wrong....if we first ask, then that's different...however, to just do things without being given permission to do is, is rude, unthinking and a total lack of respect for the home owner, your DIL, along with your son....that home, doesn't give any MIL a freeee card just because son lives in it....and while so many here talk about respect, respect first, has to be earned....and second, DIL's deserve respect as well....
I don't think Erma's Dil is being mature or considerate about this, but if I know someone is like that, I'm certainly not going to walk up to her home as if everything's all right and leave gifts....I'm first going to try and resolve the problem between us.....
Erma, I've posted before that I believe your doing everything right, except that part....I suggest, you not push it...and just give her time....continue to try to talk to her, but don't assume that it's ok to call when your son is not home, if she's not answering the phone, she's saying "I don't want to talk to you, I'm upset with you?" So, why is she upset, that is what you have got to find out and resolve, before you take any liberty to just stop by unannounced...and if she isn't grown up enough to discuss it with you, then go to your son and ask him....or call him, let him put you on speaker phone and ask them both what is going on? Why is she upset with you, and you would like to discuss it?
Adding, I really think we should all find Rose's post...and go over there and try to bring her back....her feelings were really hurt, and we must remember to watch what we post, so as not to upset people or insult them, especially a brand new poster, that is no way to welcome her or anyone, to discount they're feelings.
Just my 2 cents....
Creme
Creme....
I don't post much anymore, I know...but the 4 or 5 times I have I have been ignored. New posters don't have to be treated any better than the old ?
I do NOT agree with Rose...
I agree with all the others...
I expect to be treated the same way I treat others...with respect and courtesy.
Dear Red Rose,
I wish you did post more. You had a hard go of it. I think so highly of you.
Personally, I think Erma is owed an apology. She was a new poster too.
Rose, if you were treated with disrespect here, I'm so sorry. This is one place where you should be treated well. Maybe it's the only place.
Erma, your story was hard and sad to hear and this message goes to you too. If anything was said to you that hurt you on here, I am so sorry.
Quote from: barelythere on October 11, 2010, 07:19:33 AM
Quote from: RedRose on October 11, 2010, 07:08:09 AM
Quote from: cremebrulee on October 11, 2010, 04:34:19 AM
Back to the op....I've got to agree with Rose, and by the way, Rose was a new poster, new member, she came in to give her feelings and opinion and I don't believe it was polite or kind in any way, to view her as anything other then a member of this forum, and not a DIL/MIL....she gave her opinion, and we may not agree with it, however, after her very first post here, her post was answered in a way that made her feel like she was not welcome...and her feelings were brushed under the table. I for one don't think that's a way to represent Luise and this forum....I also think it's important to remember, we're not ever going to always agree with each other, and that's ok, but it's not ok to insult someone because we disagree with them, or, b/c they are a DIL/MIL....we are people, human beings, and not one sided or against each other....
I agree with Rose...after reading the OP's story, there has been problems with DIL, I don't know why, but as several have tried to explain, there are problems, that we know....no one is saying anyone must let go of they're dignaty or identity....however, if your having problems with someone and you want to fix it, you don't completely ignore they're feelings and proceed as you always have. A bell should sound in your head saying, hey, there is something wrong here, and I've got to fix it.
So, Erma knew her DIL was not answering her phone, and again, I'm not saying her DIL is right but common knowledge tells you, if someone is avoiding you, it means they don't want you to stop over unannounced, they don't want you to call...period. To go ahead and do it anyway, is wrong....and just gives her DIL more reasons to be upset.
It's like after reading all your posts...just b/c your a MIL, it seems like that gives us the right to do anything we want to do, regardless? If someone isn't speaking to me, answering they're phone, I'm certainly not going to go over to they're home uninvited, and certainly not going to drop off gifts, gifts are the last thing on that DIL's mind at present....
Being a MIL, doesn't entitle anyone to overstep boundaries...regardless....if the DIL is being unreasonable or not. That is still the DIL's home...not ours...and we are guests there only.
I agree that this particular DIL is acting improperly and is being mean, but why? Is it b/c she is immature, unreasonable, spoiled, what or she feels that her MIL has done some things in the past that has upset her? What is the root of the problem....? That has got to be addressed before assuming that anything else Erma does is the right thing to do...DIL is angry at Erma for a reason...and that doesn't make DIL's feelings any less valid then Erma. What we MIL's don't realize is, just b/c son married her, doesn't mean we are automatically accepted as a friend/mother, mil, etc...and that is her home, her comfort zone, her place that she can and should feel safe and secure and we should remember, we are guests....no more and no less, and to assume that its ok to walk in someone else's home and do windows, clean, etc...is wrong....if we first ask, then that's different...however, to just do things without being given permission to do is, is rude, unthinking and a total lack of respect for the home owner, your DIL, along with your son....that home, doesn't give any MIL a freeee card just because son lives in it....and while so many here talk about respect, respect first, has to be earned....and second, DIL's deserve respect as well....
I don't think Erma's Dil is being mature or considerate about this, but if I know someone is like that, I'm certainly not going to walk up to her home as if everything's all right and leave gifts....I'm first going to try and resolve the problem between us.....
Erma, I've posted before that I believe your doing everything right, except that part....I suggest, you not push it...and just give her time....continue to try to talk to her, but don't assume that it's ok to call when your son is not home, if she's not answering the phone, she's saying "I don't want to talk to you, I'm upset with you?" So, why is she upset, that is what you have got to find out and resolve, before you take any liberty to just stop by unannounced...and if she isn't grown up enough to discuss it with you, then go to your son and ask him....or call him, let him put you on speaker phone and ask them both what is going on? Why is she upset with you, and you would like to discuss it?
Adding, I really think we should all find Rose's post...and go over there and try to bring her back....her feelings were really hurt, and we must remember to watch what we post, so as not to upset people or insult them, especially a brand new poster, that is no way to welcome her or anyone, to discount they're feelings.
Just my 2 cents....
Creme
Creme....
I don't post much anymore, I know...but the 4 or 5 times I have I have been ignored. New posters don't have to be treated any better than the old ?
I do NOT agree with Rose...
I agree with all the others...
I expect to be treated the same way I treat others...with respect and courtesy.
Dear Red Rose,
I wish you did post more. You had a hard go of it. I think so highly of you.
Personally, I think Erma is owed an apology. She was a new poster too.
Rose, if you were treated with disrespect here, I'm so sorry. This is one place where you should be treated well. Maybe it's the only place.
Erma, your story was hard and sad to hear and this message goes to you too. If anything was said to you that hurt you on here, I am so sorry.
Erma,
I hope you won't leave us. Oh my goodness...please don't. Sending lots of love to you!
thanks BT, Rose,Red rose, and Cream, no hard feelings, just everyones OP's.
so to answer cream, i don't call her unless my son is there now, i know "shes upset with me for a reason" i show her respect for that and all of her boundaries, PERIOD!
MY QUESTION , is why? if i knew what she was upset about i wouldn't be posting here. but i will call my son and ask him to try and explain.
i want to "fix" it, but sometimes for me anyway, giving space is the best policy. i wasn't dropping off presents to kiss up to her, nor was i trying to see if she was home, or anything of sorts.
we drop things off at each others homes on a regular basis, not anything new, her attitude towards me and my family is whats new. i will not be a doormat for anyone! i have done nothing to deserve her rude behavior. if i, we, the family, if anyone of us have, we would like to know what it is so we can fix it and move on! i want a solution, not more problems, and i certainly don't intend to make things worse. since i dropped off the gifts, she has not spoken to us, but my son made an unannounced appearance to my home with my GC. i posted that in the adult son daughter section. i didn't say or ask anything about her, i just enjoyed my GC and my son. it was pleasent and warm fuzzys all over. so back to my DIL, i love her as my own, i am understanding more and more from other DIL posts here, that maybe she doesn't feel the same about us.
OK i get that, but i read a post where someone said, "their nuclei family", well to put it bluntly, my DS is part of our nuclei, do the DIL's now days just wipe out his side of the family all together and insert her family instead? with no consideration for his side? I'm sorry, that's rude, immature, disrespectful, and controlling. if she wants to be treated with respect and for us to ad hear to her boundaries, i suggest she treat us the same. just because we are MIL's now, doesn't mean we aren't human beings without feelings for heavensakes. since when did it become OK to have one sided relationships? for ANYONE to think only DIL's have the exclusive on boundaries, is wrong. we all have them. i have mine, she has hers, i respect hers, she pulverises mine as if i didn't exist. it hurts. so again, if i knew what the problem was, we could find a solution, make apologizes, what ever necessary to move forward. but this game of putting us on permanent ignore without letting one know what they did to upset in the first place, is childish. seems to me they act like children, buy demand we treat them as adults, kinda contradicts itself doesn't it?
Quote from: erma on October 11, 2010, 09:02:23 AM
MY QUESTION , is why? if i knew what she was upset about i wouldn't be posting here.
we all have them. i have mine, she has hers, i respect hers, she pulverises mine as if i didn't exist. it hurts. so again, if i knew what the problem was, we could find a solution, make apologizes, what ever necessary to move forward. but this game of putting us on permanent ignore without letting one know what they did to upset in the first place, is childish. seems to me they act like children, buy demand we treat them as adults, kinda contradicts itself doesn't it?
Good Morning Erma... you certainly asked the million dollar question "WHY" Seems to me that if someone wanted to work through any issue they would state their reasoning upfront. And you brought up a great point... if you knew why you probably wouldn't be posting here... many posters are asking the same question. As I've stated in the past, if you thought you already told me why and I still did not comprehend then say it slower or in smaller words, because until I can understand the why's any direction I choose will inadvertently be the wrong direction.
It's funny that you mentioned Target, as I was in my local Target the other day.. There was a young mother and her little girl (approx 2.5 to 3 years old). I did not catch the beginning of the conversation but I heard the little girl say well then Mommy, I don't love you (I'm sure she did not get her way about some issue) The mom said oh really then I'm not going to talk to you.. and she didn't... the child cried and carried on, the crying escalated into a state of panic, as she continued to say I'm sorry Mommy I love you, I'm sorry Mommy I love you, I'm sorry Mommy I love you. This went on for quite some time, by now everyone in the area stood and just watched in disbelief... Finally after the child could no longer muster another apology not from lack of wanting to but because she was almost gasping for breath, then and only then did the mother finally say fine I'll talk to you but you better not ever tell me again that you don't love me.
I am mentioning this incredibly sad moment I witnessed, because it's possible that people don't understand how they effect others. I have to wonder if you are the type of person to behave in this manner, is it saved for just your MIL, or your dh when you feel you need to make a point, or does it begin to flow over into the rearing of your own children. Why would this mother feel the need to have her own baby begging for forgiveness? Or is it a simply matter of this mother's boundaries being invaded for a fleeting moment?
Quoteerma
is why? if i knew what she was upset about i wouldn't be posting here. but i will call my son and ask him to try and explain.
i want to "fix" it, but sometimes for me anyway, giving space is the best policy. i wasn't dropping off presents to kiss up to her, nor was i trying to see if she was home, or anything of sorts.
I don't know why Erma? Its a never ending struggle when people won't communicate they're feelings to you...here's the thing I'm afraid of...what if you do ask your son, and it makes her even more resentful, then what? I just don't know what the answer is here...and don't know what you should do...however, there is a reason why she is upset with you, and in case I didn't make myself clear in my last post....it's not that I think you did anything wrong...you were being you, but she's got her knickers in a ruffle for some reason?????
I'm not religging on my feelings about not going over unless you call first....however, not everyone feels like that, and I get that...I know some of my friends love unannounced company....some don't....I don't, but then, it's all about understanding how others feel about things like that....
wish I had answers for you...but maybe since she makes your son put you on speaker phone, she might not be as offended if you say, I'm addressing you both on this....it's beyond me, why but I surely would like to make it clear...and hope you understand....there is definately something bothering her, how she is acting isn't right, but until you understand what her boundaries are, I wouldn't push it right now....it's mind numbing sometimes, trying to figure others out....and a full time job when it comes to family....maybe time will mature her? But it sure would be nice to know what she thinks you did wrong, wouldn't it? She'd probably realize it was just you being you and not intended to purposely hurt her at all....
Hugs
Creme
RedRose, sometimes not being responded to feels personal even when it isn't. We're here because we're in pain, and unintentional slights or misunderstandings can be salt in a wound; I know, I've felt it before. Usually I realize that it isn't personal and that my emotions are all over the place due to stress or whatever. Sometimes a post doesn't get a response because another topic takes over, or we may not have experience in that particular topic, or it gets lost in the shuffle for whatever reason. I try to go back and read all the old posts but when I get busy or sidetracked I miss a few. I'm sure other WW have similar reasons. We all need to remember that our feelings are raw and we may need extra TLC. I'm sorry if I inadvertently snubbed you - I really don't like it when it happens to me, so I understand your pain.
It's good to hear from you...I was wondering where you'd been, along with the other "oldies but goodies" who haven't posted in awhile.
Erma, the MILs/DILs we're dealing with are a different breed...they are not diplomats but seem more like tyrants. It's not fair, but we're stuck with them. The difference between MILs and DILs is that MILs are losing a relationship with DS, whereas DILs are only losing ILs who they more than likely didn't care about anyway. No amount of wondering, bargaining, venting or cutting off can fix it unless DS steps up and defends his FOO. In many cases the stakes are just too high...it's easier for DS to go along with DIL and her FOO to keep the peace. He has to live with her day in and day out. We have no leverage anymore, and although DS may be hurt by the situation he's better able to compartmentalize. My DS once said, "I know you will always love me, and you know I will always love you." IOW, he doesn't need to be around us or communicate with us regularly to feel like he's still a part of his FOO. Meanwhile, we're devastated. In my case, DS stepped up & things are improving so far. He and DIL actually commented that they appreciated our IL style...apparently DIL's FOO was getting a little too smothery. I hope it all works out for you.
Laurie, it would be interesting to know how that insecure mother in Target felt about her ILs. If her DH spends any time or attention on them does she stop talking to him too? Just wonderin.'
Quote from: Pen on October 11, 2010, 10:27:43 AM
RedRose, sometimes not being responded to feels personal even when it isn't. We're here because we're in pain, and unintentional slights or misunderstandings can be salt in a wound; I know, I've felt it before. Usually I realize that it isn't personal and that my emotions are all over the place due to stress or whatever. Sometimes a post doesn't get a response because another topic takes over, or we may not have experience in that particular topic, or it gets lost in the shuffle for whatever reason. I try to go back and read all the old posts but when I get busy or sidetracked I miss a few. I'm sure other WW have similar reasons. We all need to remember that our feelings are raw and we may need extra TLC. I'm sorry if I inadvertently snubbed you - I really don't like it when it happens to me, so I understand your pain.
It's good to hear from you...I was wondering where you'd been, along with the other "oldies but goodies" who haven't posted in awhile.
Erma, the MILs/DILs we're dealing with are a different breed...they are not diplomats but seem more like tyrants. It's not fair, but we're stuck with them. The difference between MILs and DILs is that MILs are losing a relationship with DS, whereas DILs are only losing ILs who they more than likely didn't care about anyway. No amount of wondering, bargaining, venting or cutting off can fix it unless DS steps up and defends his FOO. In many cases the stakes are just too high...it's easier for DS to go along with DIL and her FOO to keep the peace. He has to live with her day in and day out. We have no leverage anymore, and although DS may be hurt by the situation he's better able to compartmentalize. My DS once said, "I know you will always love me, and you know I will always love you." IOW, he doesn't need to be around us or communicate with us regularly to feel like he's still a part of his FOO. Meanwhile, we're devastated. In my case, DS stepped up & things are improving so far. He and DIL actually commented that they appreciated our IL style...apparently DIL's FOO was getting a little too smothery. I hope it all works out for you.
Pen, I'm echoing your post, and really hope Red Rose does understand....also, geeze louise....I'm so so happy to see what you wrote....I never ever knew exactly how to respond to you, b/c your situation was rare and very hard to advise but I'm so happy to hear there is improvement, congratulations!!!!!!!! That is great news!!!!
Creme
Quote from: erma on October 11, 2010, 09:02:23 AM
thanks BT, Rose,Red rose, and Cream, no hard feelings, just everyones OP's.
so to answer cream, i don't call her unless my son is there now, i know "shes upset with me for a reason" i show her respect for that and all of her boundaries, PERIOD!
MY QUESTION , is why? if i knew what she was upset about i wouldn't be posting here. but i will call my son and ask him to try and explain.
i want to "fix" it, but sometimes for me anyway, giving space is the best policy. i wasn't dropping off presents to kiss up to her, nor was i trying to see if she was home, or anything of sorts.
we drop things off at each others homes on a regular basis, not anything new, her attitude towards me and my family is whats new. i will not be a doormat for anyone! i have done nothing to deserve her rude behavior. if i, we, the family, if anyone of us have, we would like to know what it is so we can fix it and move on! i want a solution, not more problems, and i certainly don't intend to make things worse. since i dropped off the gifts, she has not spoken to us, but my son made an unannounced appearance to my home with my GC. i posted that in the adult son daughter section. i didn't say or ask anything about her, i just enjoyed my GC and my son. it was pleasent and warm fuzzys all over. so back to my DIL, i love her as my own, i am understanding more and more from other DIL posts here, that maybe she doesn't feel the same about us.
OK i get that, but i read a post where someone said, "their nuclei family", well to put it bluntly, my DS is part of our nuclei, do the DIL's now days just wipe out his side of the family all together and insert her family instead? with no consideration for his side? I'm sorry, that's rude, immature, disrespectful, and controlling. if she wants to be treated with respect and for us to ad hear to her boundaries, i suggest she treat us the same. just because we are MIL's now, doesn't mean we aren't human beings without feelings for heavensakes. since when did it become OK to have one sided relationships? for ANYONE to think only DIL's have the exclusive on boundaries, is wrong. we all have them. i have mine, she has hers, i respect hers, she pulverises mine as if i didn't exist. it hurts. so again, if i knew what the problem was, we could find a solution, make apologizes, what ever necessary to move forward. but this game of putting us on permanent ignore without letting one know what they did to upset in the first place, is childish. seems to me they act like children, buy demand we treat them as adults, kinda contradicts itself doesn't it?
Erma,
I am so glad you are posting still. I don't know if I could. This is only my opinion so take it for what it's worth but I would NOT talk to them both on the speaker phone about the situation. NO NO NO! This will cause her to completely shut down toward you in my opinion (again). In her mind, you will be interfering in their lives and telling them what to do.
Try to back off, then find some way to do something (only you know what's meaningful to her) for her. Just her. Do not focus at all on your son. Oh, please don't tell your son about the trash comment. She might deny it and it will only make you look like you're trouble. I wish I could help...what a mess. Even messes get resolved, though, Erma. Someday it will. Sending bushels of love to you. :)
Quote from: Pen on October 11, 2010, 10:27:43 AM
Laurie, it would be interesting to know how that insecure mother in Target felt about her ILs. If her DH spends any time or attention on them does she stop talking to him too? Just wonderin.'
My first thought was what a horrible way to control a child... to me the better question is, how does she feel and interact with anyone... I could see this young mother acting this way towards friends and extended family, if you are willing to take this course of action with your own child...*shaking head* I doubt that anyone else of off limits.
Tell ya what, next time I see some bs like this going down, I'll tell them that I'm conducting a survey and ask :) It was just shameful the way this mother handled the situation, but it really did show me how shallow some people are. At first I had a hard time understanding when some women talk about their own DIL's or MIL's as being vile contemptuous humans but after watching this women I had to realize that she probably is someones DIL, and will one day be someones MIL... but that poor baby she's in the now and it was simply sickening to watch.
Just wanted to comment on the lady at Target.. Don't you sometimes wonder what on earth is going through some peoples head? It is heartbreaking to know there is a little girl out there living with that mess!
Op, I can only say follow your heart and what you know it right. Lord willing things will work out for the best with your family. God Bless, Annie
Quote from: cremebrulee on October 11, 2010, 10:38:21 AM
Pen, I'm echoing your post, and really hope Red Rose does understand....also, geeze louise....I'm so so happy to see what you wrote....I never ever knew exactly how to respond to you, b/c your situation was rare and very hard to advise but I'm so happy to hear there is improvement, congratulations!!!!!!!! That is great news!!!!
Creme
Hey, Creme, thanks. It's due to you and all the WW on this site that I can take a deep breath and think before I say or do something because my feelings are hurt that will jeopardize this oh so fragile web we're weaving. When I say things are improving, I mean at least DIL will occasionally allow time in their schedule for DS/DIL to spend time with us. They see her FOO every day, literally, and every holiday. She hasn't been overtly rude or critical during the past few visits, and I appreciate that. Remember, she told DS she hated us (no reason, just didn't like us) over a year ago and she & her FOO shunned us for a long time. Either she has no idea we know her feelings, or she has chosen to pretend she never said it. How she's justifying the obvious shunning, I don't know. We're choosing to let it go.
Perhaps they've started counseling or DS is continuing to stick up for us or both - whatever it is, I believe DS is the key and that means a lot to me. It's enough for now, most of the time.
Unfair or not, it's the MILs and the DS's FOO who have to back off when the DIL and her FOO think they're the only ones who matter. It's worth it to me to play the game so I can see my DS every now and then, but sometimes I get tripped up by the incredible lack of balance. If I say anything about it I'm through in her eyes, so I'm silent. That's how I choose to deal with it; I know that's not everyone's style.
Pen, I'm very serious...I forget a lot...can't help it...and I apologize, but how long has this been going on with DIL?
I'm just so glad there is improvement...baby steps dear lady...
I know your hurting and it's a thing of pride...however, it's the only way, so hang in there and be brave...keep telling yourself, regardless, there is something in this for you to learn...that is how I got thru it...
Much love and best wishes
Creme
Sometimes when I read what all you lovely ladies are going through....MIL's and DIL'S both....I just get so upset.
Erma's story is so like mine. I just hate it when grandchildren are used to punish grandparents. Why prohibit all the love those children could receive? If boundries are broken then talk about what needs to be done. If you forget a boundry apologise and promise never to do it again. I hate the term boundry...cross this line and you've started a war. Courtesy and respect for each other is what is needed.
Aren't we all adults? Talk to your dil and son (alone or together..whatever works).
Cut-offs to me are so mean and unnecessary...In Most Cases.
I always chose to be silent, especially when I knew my dil was upset over something(didn't have to be me). If I didn't...my grandchild would be kept from
visiting me.
My son did the same...went along with her...it was easier...he had to live with her. She was and probably still is a very controlling young lady.
My son left her for these reasons and the fact she cheated..her second child is not my son's. He had a hard time trusting her again. The divorce will be final soon.
Quote from: RedRose on October 11, 2010, 06:13:30 PM
Sometimes when I read what all you lovely ladies are going through....MIL's and DIL'S both....I just get so upset.
Erma's story is so like mine. I just hate it when grandchildren are used to punish grandparents. Why prohibit all the love those children could receive? If boundries are broken then talk about what needs to be done. If you forget a boundry apologise and promise never to do it again. I hate the term boundry...cross this line and you've started a war. Courtesy and respect for each other is what is needed.
Aren't we all adults? Talk to your dil and son (alone or together..whatever works).
Cut-offs to me are so mean and unnecessary...In Most Cases.
I always chose to be silent, especially when I knew my dil was upset over something(didn't have to be me). If I didn't...my grandchild would be kept from
visiting me.
My son did the same...went along with her...it was easier...he had to live with her. She was and probably still is a very controlling young lady.
My son left her for these reasons and the fact she cheated..her second child is not my son's. He had a hard time trusting her again. The divorce will be final soon.
So well said, Red Rose....it's like we're playing some kind of game and we don't know the rules. The game keeps changing just enough to keep us off guard. It's sad but it's also crazy making.
Barelythere,
It's been said here many times...I was always walking on eggshells
Quote from: RedRose on October 11, 2010, 07:12:04 PM
Barelythere,
It's been said here many times...I was always walking on eggshells
I remember Red Rose...you did that dance of the eggshells like a pro. At least it's almost over and you can be a part of your GS's life. So glad. Sorry it took a divorce..so senseless.
Quote from: Laurie on October 11, 2010, 07:28:11 PM
Red Rose... once your son is divorced how do you perceive your future relationship will play out concerning your grandchild? That would be a tough set of circumstances to find yourself a part of. This is a personal question and don't feel required to answer if you rather not, but the second child, your grandson's brother/sister, have you been close to this child as well? I would be torn having separate visitations for each child. Complicated isn't it?
My son has my grandson 1 full week and his ex-wife has him the next. My son has been spending at least 3 or 4 days here at my home the week he has him. He works and I take care of my grandson for him. This arrangement is in their divorce agreement...the week that one or the other has my grandson..they need to find someone to take care of him that they both agree to.
I hope this continues for a long time.
I was close to her other child too...I knew the truth since the day she told us she was pregnant. My son agreed to raise him as his own...but...it was not meant to be. She has been living with the other man (in his father's home) for quite a few month's now. I never see that child. She and that man will not let that child have anything to do with us.
Sad....
But.....I am glad they are almost divorced. I know that sounds bad.
I am hoping for a happier more peaceful life for my son !
My grandson is 3 1/2 now....the younger one is 1 1/2 now.
My grandson was very confused at first...but he is adjusting to daddy's turn with him and then mommy's turn
Quote from: RedRose on October 11, 2010, 07:58:42 PM
My grandson is 3 1/2 now....the younger one is 1 1/2 now.
My grandson was very confused at first...but he is adjusting to daddy's turn with him and then mommy's turn
So sad but kids are adaptable and can rise above it with love.
Yes, he tells me and my husband everytime he leaves..."I love you and I'll miss you"...so much love
Good nite....love to all
Hi Erma and Good Morning
I've been thinking about this all night and would like to get back to the topic of your problem
I believe some women here yesterday thought your feelings were being hurt by what we were posting to you.
First, Erma, you came in on your first posts with perspectives and wisdom....you were trying to account your DIL's feelings, and I believe several of us picked up on that....so, a DIL and I came in and posted how we were seeing it....and I really feel that you understood we were not picking on you or saying you were wrong.
what we were saying is...ok, you tried it this way and it's not working....you've got two options...as many of us do...you can either continue on, doing what your doing, or, try it a different way...and that different way is to slowly back off your son and DIL....give them space and time....
It is not easy to view how someone else may be feelings, when we're all caught up in hurt, despair, confussion and self sympathy, and yes, we feel sorry for ourselves, I did, everyone does....however, there comes a time, when we have to decide, do we want to fix this or keep it like this. I don't think any of us want it to continue as it is....
So, Erma, I want to extend my apologies to you if your feelings were hurt and you thought we were ganging up on you....we were not....what we were doing was evaluating your post and considered you to have perspectives beyond what most of us have at this time, and you would be able to see it from your DIL's side, who is right now, very young, very immature (and I don't mean that as an insult...at they're age, we're all very immature, inexperienced and impatient)
I also would like to explain to you Erma and everyone here....when a DIL who is posting in this forum comes into a thread, and posts....they are always feeling like they are the bad guys for posting they're opinions...they are not....what they are really doing, which some of us cannot see, is, taking they're time to not only read your posts...but to try and give you a look at the situation from the other side of the coin....
No one is wrong or right here...it's all about life experiences, culture, how sensitive we all are, and we must ask ourselves, are we so sensitive that we are not going to be able to view a DIL's perspective ever? Because if we are not, it's never going to get better. I think a lot of us have forgotten how immature, we were when we were young.....yes, we were different, b/c we came from a different culture, we didnt' talk back, we simply did what we were told to do and we were told to respect adults....including our MIL's....so, speaking for myself....I never treated my MIL like this, however, she was a real pain in the neck at that time....now, and only now, can I understand why she did what she did...however, I'm 62 years old....it takes time to reach that point and some never do....
No one's feelings are being ignored here....and again, I'm saying, if a DIL comes in to our threads and posts they're feelings on the subject, instead of taking insult, we should feel rather honored that she is coming in and giving you her thoughts on what our DIL's might be feeling. No one is saying your wrong...no one...however, some here take it as if we're ganging up on a poster or telling them they are wrong, and that seems to be the important factor here....no one is wrong or right....personal experiences are all different....however, after reading a thread, if someone doesn't agree with your feelings on the subject, what they are doing is trying to help you see that even though your DIL to you is acting out, she is doing it for a reason, everyone reacts for reasons, wrong or right, so something is bothering her and if we can together trouble shoot the situation, and find out what is bothering DIL, and if we can get MIL's to understand, that maybe if you try to react differently to her, she's going to feel change over time and she herself will not feel threatened by you.
It's not about giving up your dignity, it's about realizing that this other individual isn't you, she is not going to feel like you, react like you or believe in the same things that you've been doing all your life....is she wrong, yes and no, are you wrong, yes and no, because all our lives, no matter who we are, we react to situations the way we were raised to believe...so, we didn't have the same parents, so we're not going to feel the same way about things....especially if a DIL grew up very hard, in a bad family atmosphere.....it's even going to be tougher....
I was told Erma, that some here yesterday felt sorry for you...and it made me feel awful....and I understand, we were simply trying to help you....yes, we could have come in and said, "oh your DIL is awful and how can she act like that, and she is so mean and immature"....and yes, that would surely validate your feelings, and maybe we should have, however, will that solve the problem? No, it will prolong the problem, b/c the sooner you or any of us start to come out from that black pit of endless hurt, tears and pain, the sooner we can change our attitudes and start to answer why DIL is acting the way she is and make changes. We can't change if we view it as she is wrong and I am right, or I didn't do anything....no, you didn't do anything that you haven't done all your life, however, you now have two complete strangers who are thrown together that love the same man and wants personal time with that man....our sons....and then they have children and if your problems haven't been solved by then, there is a good chance, that you won't see your GC as much as you would like...is it right, heck no, however, as women do, we don't forget, and one thing builds on another then another, and young women, not all but most of them are afraid to express they're feelings to they're mil's....so it festers and builds, and the mil continues her same habits, not realizing that it's really annoying DIL, and DIL doesn't something hurtful back, and it builds some more and more.
Is any of this right, NO, is it fair, NO, and some DIL's refuse to change, others as they grow older do, but we MIL's have one tool, experience and hopefully maturity to resolve this whole situation...and that is to back off, let our son's go, and get used to not having him around so much and depending on him, loving him so much....no one is saying you have to love him less....what we are saying and I say this through experience, is....you have to change your way of thinking to make this work...if not, if you are not able to say to yourself....ok, "what am I doing that is upsetting my DIL....not what am I doing wrong", but "what is upsetting her?" And if we want things to change, we've got to be the one to change, b/c DIL is not....she won't understand this, until she ripens with age....and she is now a MIL....and some people never get it, both MIL's and DIL's....but the fact of the matter remains, this is not about telling anyone they are wrong.
Several of us have been trying to say, let it go....and I don't believe some of you are understanding what we mean by that, and you think we're saying, give up your son's....no, we're not....however, life as you know it with your son is definately going to change, whether you have a nice understanding DIL or a DIL with some jealousy and controlling issues.
Your son's also, want you to respect the fact that they are now men, in charge of they're own families, and quite frankly do not have the time you would like them to have to invest in you any longer....they have they're own lives and they're own families...doesn't mean they love you any less, however, change is going to happen, and your not going to have the same relationship with son that you had before...
It is in fact, like a love triangle....without the sex....and I know some of you were appauled by that concept, but if you can grasp it, it is absolutely what is happening, two women who love the same man, fighting over him...and if you can grasp that concept, it will in fact, tend to embarraase you and humble you snapping you back into reality, as it did me.
I had to humble myself, forget about my feelings and realize, by fighting this, it was not working....I had to change my attitude, and explore what it was that was hurting DIL....otherwise any relationship I wanted to have with them was doomed, and it is....
Most DIL's are not going to appologize, so if your waiting for that, it ain't going to happen....believe me....she might years later down the road, when she matures, and she might in her actions, you may never hear the words, but if you can try what I and some of the DIL's here are suggesting, she will say I'm sorry in her actions, by accepting you...but first, she's got to trust that you are backing off....and allowing her, her own life with her husband. And that is not going to happen in a week or two, it may take months and years, b/c she is afraid that if she all of a sudden allows you in, your going to start taking over again, by calling way to much, stopping by way to much and giving way to much advice or whatever it is that is bothering her.
I don't know what is bothering your DIL's....but what I do know is, you and only you have the power to make it better....she is not going to....so you have two choices,
1. Continue as things are
2. Change your attitudes
It's very hard, very very hard....but when you start doing it, your going to experience a change in her, and in time, you will slowly build a relationship with her.....but you will never ever have the same relationship with your son again....he's not going to be there for you all the time, he doesn't want you to call him every day, week or call him at work.....let them call you....let them call you....b/c they're viewing your calls as smothering...if DIL has cut you off from her life, unfair as it is, there is a reason and you've got to find out what it is, and change it...before it's to late.
So, I apologize to you all if your feelings were hurt....or if you thought we were attacking either you or Erma...we were not, and when you can start seeing it that way, is when things for you will start to change....
I guess what I'm saying is, stop taking everything as a personal attack and please start seeing it as good firm advice...and please stop seeing MIL's or DIL's as the enemy here...they are taking time out from they're busy schedules to post and try to help...they are not saying you are wrong, they are trying to explain to you, please be able to understand, that we don't all see things the same way, and they are trying to point out to you, how to change it.
We can't always have our ways, life isn't always fair....but if we humble ourselves and stop being so stubborn, sensitive, and let go of "I didn't do anything"......some of us may have a chance at not only healing this but having a healthy relationship with our sons....they're wives and our GC.
We are not always going to get our ways anymore, we are no longer in charge, like we used to be....we much be greatful and thankful for what we get....we have to stop analyzing situations/words and seeing it as though someone is saying this, writing it or doing it to hurt me....
And one more thing.....a while ago, I had invited a gal to this forum who was having a problem with her MIL....I told her she would be received well....that we have both MIL's and DIL's here who would support her....she had been reading in here for some time, and her very first post....someone came in and b/c she was a DIL, completely disregarded her post, by saying, "Oh that is so wong"......she is not a DIL, she is a human being with a problem and until we start recognizing that fact, we are not WWU.....
and Erma, again....someone wrote me this morning and told me they felt sorry for you, b/c they felt that we were attacking you....if you felt that way, I'm really sorry...and to me, the entire purpose of this forum is to help....this is unlike any other forum I've ever been a part of....we're all here b/c we have problems...but what we've got to stop doing is thinking that people are attacking each other....please slow down and read the words that are being written....don't just see that someone disagrees with you, and right away take it as an insult, but that someone is trying desperately to help you see another perspective so that you might be able to resolve the issue....and by the way, this will also help you be successful in other relationships....as well....don't take things so negatively....be open to suggestions....be aware of the fact that someone is trying to help you....when someone writes that this is what they see your DIL feelings, they are not saying, YOUR WRONG.....and I believe that is all some of you see....instead of realizing that your DIL has feelings, right or wrong, and in order to find out the whys' you've first got to understand her and see things from her eyes....not your own.
Erma, know that we care....
Rose, please return and don't be offended b/c some here disagreed with you...we're all human, we all make mistakes and we all perceive things differently...and most of all, all of us here are part of a circle....we are not a click, no one is wrong or right, we're all here b/c we're struggling with an issue....and to try and do better so that the healing and resolve can be accomplished....
Sorry for the book, I just don't know how else to explain this so that some of you understand....no one is attacking anyone or trying to hurt anyone....more so, we're all trying to help each other, as a team....and we all have different feelings....about sugbjects....you can take what you want from everyone's post and apply what might work for you to your life...no one really knows your situation but you, and it sure wouldn't hurt to try something different, b/c it ain't working as it is...and anyway, ask yourselves.....what do I have to loose....absolutely nothing....doesn't hurt anyone to drop the pride and try....stop being so stubborn and blaming, and just try a different approach....otherwise, nothing will ever change....
I hope you know, that I do care.....so very much....
Creme
Quote from: cremebrulee on October 12, 2010, 05:10:29 AM
Hi Erma and Good Morning
I've been thinking about this all night and would like to get back to the topic of your problem
I believe some women here yesterday thought your feelings were being hurt by what we were posting to you.
First, Erma, you came in on your first posts with perspectives and wisdom....you were trying to account your DIL's feelings, and I believe several of us picked up on that....so, a DIL and I came in and posted how we were seeing it....and I really feel that you understood we were not picking on you or saying you were wrong.
what we were saying is...ok, you tried it this way and it's not working....you've got two options...as many of us do...you can either continue on, doing what your doing, or, try it a different way...and that different way is to slowly back off your son and DIL....give them space and time....
It is not easy to view how someone else may be feelings, when we're all caught up in hurt, despair, confussion and self sympathy, and yes, we feel sorry for ourselves, I did, everyone does....however, there comes a time, when we have to decide, do we want to fix this or keep it like this. I don't think any of us want it to continue as it is....
So, Erma, I want to extend my apologies to you if your feelings were hurt and you thought we were ganging up on you....we were not....what we were doing was evaluating your post and considered you to have perspectives beyond what most of us have at this time, and you would be able to see it from your DIL's side, who is right now, very young, very immature (and I don't mean that as an insult...at they're age, we're all very immature, inexperienced and impatient)
I also would like to explain to you Erma and everyone here....when a DIL who is posting in this forum comes into a thread, and posts....they are always feeling like they are the bad guys for posting they're opinions...they are not....what they are really doing, which some of us cannot see, is, taking they're time to not only read your posts...but to try and give you a look at the situation from the other side of the coin....
No one is wrong or right here...it's all about life experiences, culture, how sensitive we all are, and we must ask ourselves, are we so sensitive that we are not going to be able to view a DIL's perspective ever? Because if we are not, it's never going to get better. I think a lot of us have forgotten how immature, we were when we were young.....yes, we were different, b/c we came from a different culture, we didnt' talk back, we simply did what we were told to do and we were told to respect adults....including our MIL's....so, speaking for myself....I never treated my MIL like this, however, she was a real pain in the neck at that time....now, and only now, can I understand why she did what she did...however, I'm 62 years old....it takes time to reach that point and some never do....
No one's feelings are being ignored here....and again, I'm saying, if a DIL comes in to our threads and posts they're feelings on the subject, instead of taking insult, we should feel rather honored that she is coming in and giving you her thoughts on what our DIL's might be feeling. No one is saying your wrong...no one...however, some here take it as if we're ganging up on a poster or telling them they are wrong, and that seems to be the important factor here....no one is wrong or right....personal experiences are all different....however, after reading a thread, if someone doesn't agree with your feelings on the subject, what they are doing is trying to help you see that even though your DIL to you is acting out, she is doing it for a reason, everyone reacts for reasons, wrong or right, so something is bothering her and if we can together trouble shoot the situation, and find out what is bothering DIL, and if we can get MIL's to understand, that maybe if you try to react differently to her, she's going to feel change over time and she herself will not feel threatened by you.
It's not about giving up your dignity, it's about realizing that this other individual isn't you, she is not going to feel like you, react like you or believe in the same things that you've been doing all your life....is she wrong, yes and no, are you wrong, yes and no, because all our lives, no matter who we are, we react to situations the way we were raised to believe...so, we didn't have the same parents, so we're not going to feel the same way about things....especially if a DIL grew up very hard, in a bad family atmosphere.....it's even going to be tougher....
I was told Erma, that some here yesterday felt sorry for you...and it made me feel awful....and I understand, we were simply trying to help you....yes, we could have come in and said, "oh your DIL is awful and how can she act like that, and she is so mean and immature"....and yes, that would surely validate your feelings, and maybe we should have, however, will that solve the problem? No, it will prolong the problem, b/c the sooner you or any of us start to come out from that black pit of endless hurt, tears and pain, the sooner we can change our attitudes and start to answer why DIL is acting the way she is and make changes. We can't change if we view it as she is wrong and I am right, or I didn't do anything....no, you didn't do anything that you haven't done all your life, however, you now have two complete strangers who are thrown together that love the same man and wants personal time with that man....our sons....and then they have children and if your problems haven't been solved by then, there is a good chance, that you won't see your GC as much as you would like...is it right, heck no, however, as women do, we don't forget, and one thing builds on another then another, and young women, not all but most of them are afraid to express they're feelings to they're mil's....so it festers and builds, and the mil continues her same habits, not realizing that it's really annoying DIL, and DIL doesn't something hurtful back, and it builds some more and more.
Is any of this right, NO, is it fair, NO, and some DIL's refuse to change, others as they grow older do, but we MIL's have one tool, experience and hopefully maturity to resolve this whole situation...and that is to back off, let our son's go, and get used to not having him around so much and depending on him, loving him so much....no one is saying you have to love him less....what we are saying and I say this through experience, is....you have to change your way of thinking to make this work...if not, if you are not able to say to yourself....ok, "what am I doing that is upsetting my DIL....not what am I doing wrong", but "what is upsetting her?" And if we want things to change, we've got to be the one to change, b/c DIL is not....she won't understand this, until she ripens with age....and she is now a MIL....and some people never get it, both MIL's and DIL's....but the fact of the matter remains, this is not about telling anyone they are wrong.
Several of us have been trying to say, let it go....and I don't believe some of you are understanding what we mean by that, and you think we're saying, give up your son's....no, we're not....however, life as you know it with your son is definately going to change, whether you have a nice understanding DIL or a DIL with some jealousy and controlling issues.
Your son's also, want you to respect the fact that they are now men, in charge of they're own families, and quite frankly do not have the time you would like them to have to invest in you any longer....they have they're own lives and they're own families...doesn't mean they love you any less, however, change is going to happen, and your not going to have the same relationship with son that you had before...
It is in fact, like a love triangle....without the sex....and I know some of you were appauled by that concept, but if you can grasp it, it is absolutely what is happening, two women who love the same man, fighting over him...and if you can grasp that concept, it will in fact, tend to embarraase you and humble you snapping you back into reality, as it did me.
I had to humble myself, forget about my feelings and realize, by fighting this, it was not working....I had to change my attitude, and explore what it was that was hurting DIL....otherwise any relationship I wanted to have with them was doomed, and it is....
Most DIL's are not going to appologize, so if your waiting for that, it ain't going to happen....believe me....she might years later down the road, when she matures, and she might in her actions, you may never hear the words, but if you can try what I and some of the DIL's here are suggesting, she will say I'm sorry in her actions, by accepting you...but first, she's got to trust that you are backing off....and allowing her, her own life with her husband. And that is not going to happen in a week or two, it may take months and years, b/c she is afraid that if she all of a sudden allows you in, your going to start taking over again, by calling way to much, stopping by way to much and giving way to much advice or whatever it is that is bothering her.
I don't know what is bothering your DIL's....but what I do know is, you and only you have the power to make it better....she is not going to....so you have two choices,
1. Continue as things are
2. Change your attitudes
It's very hard, very very hard....but when you start doing it, your going to experience a change in her, and in time, you will slowly build a relationship with her.....but you will never ever have the same relationship with your son again....he's not going to be there for you all the time, he doesn't want you to call him every day, week or call him at work.....let them call you....let them call you....b/c they're viewing your calls as smothering...if DIL has cut you off from her life, unfair as it is, there is a reason and you've got to find out what it is, and change it...before it's to late.
So, I apologize to you all if your feelings were hurt....or if you thought we were attacking either you or Erma...we were not, and when you can start seeing it that way, is when things for you will start to change....
I guess what I'm saying is, stop taking everything as a personal attack and please start seeing it as good firm advice...and please stop seeing MIL's or DIL's as the enemy here...they are taking time out from they're busy schedules to post and try to help...they are not saying you are wrong, they are trying to explain to you, please be able to understand, that we don't all see things the same way, and they are trying to point out to you, how to change it.
We can't always have our ways, life isn't always fair....but if we humble ourselves and stop being so stubborn, sensitive, and let go of "I didn't do anything"......some of us may have a chance at not only healing this but having a healthy relationship with our sons....they're wives and our GC.
We are not always going to get our ways anymore, we are no longer in charge, like we used to be....we much be greatful and thankful for what we get....we have to stop analyzing situations/words and seeing it as though someone is saying this, writing it or doing it to hurt me....
And one more thing.....a while ago, I had invited a gal to this forum who was having a problem with her MIL....I told her she would be received well....that we have both MIL's and DIL's here who would support her....she had been reading in here for some time, and her very first post....someone came in and b/c she was a DIL, completely disregarded her post, by saying, "Oh that is so wong"......she is not a DIL, she is a human being with a problem and until we start recognizing that fact, we are not WWU.....
and Erma, again....someone wrote me this morning and told me they felt sorry for you, b/c they felt that we were attacking you....if you felt that way, I'm really sorry...and to me, the entire purpose of this forum is to help....this is unlike any other forum I've ever been a part of....we're all here b/c we have problems...but what we've got to stop doing is thinking that people are attacking each other....please slow down and read the words that are being written....don't just see that someone disagrees with you, and right away take it as an insult, but that someone is trying desperately to help you see another perspective so that you might be able to resolve the issue....and by the way, this will also help you be successful in other relationships....as well....don't take things so negatively....be open to suggestions....be aware of the fact that someone is trying to help you....when someone writes that this is what they see your DIL feelings, they are not saying, YOUR WRONG.....and I believe that is all some of you see....instead of realizing that your DIL has feelings, right or wrong, and in order to find out the whys' you've first got to understand her and see things from her eyes....not your own.
Erma, know that we care....
Rose, please return and don't be offended b/c some here disagreed with you...we're all human, we all make mistakes and we all perceive things differently...and most of all, all of us here are part of a circle....we are not a click, no one is wrong or right, we're all here b/c we're struggling with an issue....and to try and do better so that the healing and resolve can be accomplished....
Sorry for the book, I just don't know how else to explain this so that some of you understand....no one is attacking anyone or trying to hurt anyone....more so, we're all trying to help each other, as a team....and we all have different feelings....about sugbjects....you can take what you want from everyone's post and apply what might work for you to your life...no one really knows your situation but you, and it sure wouldn't hurt to try something different, b/c it ain't working as it is...and anyway, ask yourselves.....what do I have to loose....absolutely nothing....doesn't hurt anyone to drop the pride and try....stop being so stubborn and blaming, and just try a different approach....otherwise, nothing will ever change....
I hope you know, that I do care.....so very much....
Creme
Dear Creme,
There is so much here to digest and once again your wise advice is so good. Thank you for being there for us :)
Erma, this is my opinion and mine only, your DIL is being a little brat. She is showing extreme unhappiness and has no right to treat you in this manner. I hope you come back here and will not feel beat up again after being beaten up by a brat. That's the last thing you need.
good morning ladies!
wow! cream, what a reply! ok, ill try not to insult, offend, tromp on, or hurt anyones feeling either. whew! i will start by saying, no offense taken. however i will say that i don't think some of you understood what i was trying to convey in my posts. don't want to offend anyone here, but i believe some posters here have been wounded so badly that no matter what the poster has to say, its going to be taken out of context and conformed to their beliefs, like salt in an open wound.
now, back to why i came here and posted in the first place. my DIL has an issue with me and will not communicate to me what it is. and like i have posted before, iii do no meddle in their lives! i learned with my first born thank goodness, some of whats to come with DIL. i do not claim to know everything, and as Ive stated before, if i knew everything, id be six feet under.
as far as "backing off" i am about as far removed, taken a backseat, backed off, let go, what ever you call it, as i can get. first, these are not fresh out of the nest kids, they are 26, and 27 yr olds, who have college educations, and make a nice 6 figure income for them selves. still young i agree, but old enough to know right from wrong behavior. second, i never claim i am right, Innocent, or haven't gotton my feelers hurt once in awhile. so again, i am giving them their space, first bcuz, their grown adults and no matter what i feel, its their life, not mine, second, i don't ever want to put my son in a position where he has to chose, and i believe i have let go. i didn't have children to have them grow up and be on my skirt tail all their lives. my kids all left home at 18. and my oldest is 34. so we've been empty nesters for a long time. hubby and i adjusted along time ago, hard to do at first ill admit, but in order to find peace in our lives we had to persue our lives.
now, for an update. DS came to our house again last nite. with my heart! (GC) lovely as always to see them, but again, no DIL. i asked "wheres_______?" ds replied Home. that's all that was asked or said. we went about our visit, which this is his second visit in 2 weeks! wow! what a blessing! so i again am perplexed as to what to say or do. my gut feeling is to just let it be. i am praying that she is not hurting my son. i know where we (i) stand with him, and if he must stop seeing us until she heals, then so be it. but that will have to be a choice he will make. life certainly gives us all choices doesn't it?? that would really hurt, but i do not want my son to hurt either. they will find their own way in life, i am confident of that.
so, in reality, i am getting just what i came to this site for. i am looking to bounce things off of others, to help me understand. i am not of stagnant nature. i need to move ahead, grow, learn, understand. even when i read or hear things i don't like. especially when it hits a cord. that to me means, i need to look at it harder bcuz it struck a cord. and life its self is a bunch of choices we made, good, bad or indifferent, we made them, or are in the midst of making our choices, to live "happily ever after". so like it or not, the choices we make are what were made of. good news though, if you don't like it, change it. which is what life's all about, change.
so ill keep reading, posting, changing, until satisfied, until the next thing comes along!
thanks ladies, glad you all have so much input, and take the time to post. we all have a common thread here. we are all women who are loving, caring, understanding women, all deserving of love and caring and understanding. that's why i came to this site, was to understand better. we all have wounds that need healing, and talking with others that have the same and have gotten thou it helps. i believe that's what this site was created for. healing.
so, with a lite heart, i say, cheers ladies! we've made it this far! :)
Quoteerma
however i will say that i don't think some of you understood what i was trying to convey in my posts. don't want to offend anyone here, but i believe some posters here have been wounded so badly that no matter what the poster has to say, its going to be taken out of context and conformed to their beliefs, like salt in an open wound.
Exactly and the reason for my last post, I don't know how to help them understand, that no one is against them, and or saying they are wrong....and some of the DIL's here feel the very same way...they only want to help, and so do I, in the worst way, but some of these women here were indeed hurt so badly, they are not able to understand, they didn't do anything wrong...but they're DIL's were hurt by they're actions or reactions and in some cases, that is what started this whole thing...thank you, if you were here I'd hug you....
Quotenow, back to why i came here and posted in the first place. my DIL has an issue with me and will not communicate to me what it is. and like i have posted before, iii do no meddle in their lives! i learned with my first born thank goodness, some of whats to come with DIL. i do not claim to know everything, and as Ive stated before, if i knew everything, id be six feet under.
I know you don't and know you've done all that you humanly know possible and can tell by your posts....
Quoteas far as "backing off" i am about as far removed, taken a backseat, backed off, let go, what ever you call it, as i can get. first, these are not fresh out of the nest kids, they are 26, and 27 yr olds, who have college educations, and make a nice 6 figure income for them selves. still young i agree, but old enough to know right from wrong behavior. second, i never claim i am right, Innocent, or haven't gotton my feelers hurt once in awhile. so again, i am giving them their space, first bcuz, their grown adults and no matter what i feel, its their life, not mine, second, i don't ever want to put my son in a position where he has to chose, and i believe i have let go. i didn't have children to have them grow up and be on my skirt tail all their lives. my kids all left home at 18. and my oldest is 34. so we've been empty nesters for a long time. hubby and i adjusted along time ago, hard to do at first ill admit, but in order to find peace in our lives we had to persue our lives.
Great post, you and Luise should get together and write a book, you both have the ability to say so much with very few words, I wish I could do that, and probably the whole WWU community here wishes I could to.... ;D
But, you have a very healthy and realistic way of viewing this whole thing....
Quotenow, for an update. DS came to our house again last nite. with my heart! (GC) lovely as always to see them, but again, no DIL. i asked "wheres_______?" ds replied Home. that's all that was asked or said. we went about our visit, which this is his second visit in 2 weeks! wow! what a blessing! so i again am perplexed as to what to say or do. my gut feeling is to just let it be. i am praying that she is not hurting my son. i know where we (i) stand with him, and if he must stop seeing us until she heals, then so be it. but that will have to be a choice he will make. life certainly gives us all choices doesn't it?? that would really hurt, but i do not want my son to hurt either. they will find their own way in life, i am confident of that.
welp, he pretty much said, he didn't want to discuss it, didn't he? Yes, I'm glad he has the smarts to recognize your needs and the needs of your GC. and yes your son and his wife will find they're own way, unfortunately, in the process, your hurting....so, what do we do about that?
Quoteso, in reality, i am getting just what i came to this site for. i am looking to bounce things off of others, to help me understand. i am not of stagnant nature. i need to move ahead, grow, learn, understand. even when i read or hear things i don't like. especially when it hits a cord. that to me means, i need to look at it harder bcuz it struck a cord. and life its self is a bunch of choices we made, good, bad or indifferent, we made them, or are in the midst of making our choices, to live "happily ever after". so like it or not, the choices we make are what were made of. good news though, if you don't like it, change it. which is what life's all about, change.
You are definately not in a stagnate nature....but, as all of us, still will continue to grow, but I am confident, you will grow in a very positive way....b/c you are able to view things beyond your own feelings....and that is so healthy....you have a very good attitude....
Quoteso ill keep reading, posting, changing, until satisfied, until the next thing comes along!
thanks ladies, glad you all have so much input, and take the time to post. we all have a common thread here. we are all women who are loving, caring, understanding women, all deserving of love and caring and understanding. that's why i came to this site, was to understand better. we all have wounds that need healing, and talking with others that have the same and have gotten thou it helps. i believe that's what this site was created for. healing.
Please please keep posting, I feel that you are a tremendous inspiration....to all of us....and am glad you choose to not put son in the middle. Sometimes it is necessary to talk to son, and sometimes, it is not, knowing when is a good thing...
Quote
so, with a lite heart, i say, cheers ladies! we've made it this far! :)
Erma, thanks so much....I really appreciate you and I think the other ladies do as well
maybe together and in time, we will all be able to figure this thing out, but for now, plan something else over the holidays, change your traditions if you can, and do something really exciting, to give yourselves something to look forward to....do something you've always wanted to do, but never have....
create other dream come trues....
and forgive me for the book before....
big hugs
Creme
Erma, the example you gave in your first post sounds like it was a misunderstanding over a boundary.
What I think happened is that the boundary was given to you as "call before you come over" but what it really was "call and speak to someone to get the ok to come over." I also think the short time frame (sitting 50 ft away while calling) didn't help in the mix up. I also think your DS has a lot more responsibility in this than has been talked about and I will get into that later in my post.
I am a DIL and we have had very similar misunderstandings at times with my MIL, so I know how this can get blown out of proportion and how the lack of clear communication can be a HUGE factor. We even had a really similar incident as this during the summer. (except we've been going over this issue with MIL for 2 years so I'm having a hard time understanding why she hasnt gotten it yet! lol)
I do not like the drop ins or the unannounced arrival on my doorstep. I also dislike when ~anyone~ calls me up and expects me to drop what I'm doing (hey, I'm a busy gal!) I also just did not grow up that way, everyone in my family of origin calls, sets up dates and they are very streamlined and organized. And that's how I like it! I also dislike the concept of cell phones b/c now I think society tends to think that you need to answer that call, right now, right then, drop whats in your hands and answer the call! I don't operate like that and my MIL doesn't get it. If I'm doing dishes or taking a bath or doing any other chore, I don't run to the phone to answer and from what I gather, MIL thinks I avoid her. MIL could be having surgery and she's going to answer that phone! I don't, I do that with ~everyone~ Same with emails, I don't keep logged in to check things the second they come in to respond to someone, I just don't. I'm way too busy with work and kids to be able to get at every single email within 5 minutes.
With that said, I know a lot of people like me. I don't think it's unusual at all. So I can see why your DIL would be upset to find out you were calling from 50 ft away without giving her anytime or space or leeway. It doesn't seem like the call was much of a heads up, which is what she asked of you in the first place, but again I think that goes back to the murky communication and your DS has a BIG, GIGANTIC role in that mix up.
I also don't think your type (the spontaneous) is unusual either. My MIL and DH are both of the spontaneous variety. In fact, when these situations kept happening, DH couldn't understand why they would upset me and we had to struggle through that. Bottom line, I am the rock of this household (I sound so uppity lol) I make the schedules, I keep the kids cleaned and fed, I make sure everything is running smoothly and ticking along. I make sure the trash gets out on time (before me, DH would often forget trash day and would have 2 months, yes you heard me, 2 months worth of trash sitting in his garage.) I could go on for days with examples of what I do to make sure we are safe, comfortable, fed and healthy. And you know what, thats a big reason why DH loves me, I'm the yin to his yang and vice versa.
DH had to feel natural consequences for awhile, you skip a dentist appoint b/c MIL called 20 minutes before the appointment and wanted to go to dinner? You still owe the dentist 50 bucks for a missed appointment and no cancel call before 24 hours. That kind of stuff was more acceptable as a bachelor but as a father, you miss DD's dentist appointment, not only are your paying for that but you also aren't getting your kids health seen to at time, you have to wait another month for her to be seen and then she has a cavity. Or the only available appointment within the next few months is during school, so then DD has to be pulled from school....all because MIL and DH liked to be spontaneous. And the thing is, as grown ups, I'm certainly not going to explain the cause and effect on our life to MIL, I'm a grown up! She just doesn't know what every single detail in our life is and if I drop everything to answer her call or door ring what the impact is on me. She doesn't know but I do, so IMO it would be nice if she'd trust me that I'm doing what needs to get done and it's not personal to her.
He started getting it and started getting that just b/c he and his Mom were different, doesn't mean that I'm bad for being different, I'm just different.
So the solution? You and DIL are different. Just like you and your friends are different, if you know one of your friends has boundaries of when you can come to her house, when she answers phone calls, you respect them, right? You don't see the need to change it. It's more of an acceptance, oh you know Jane, she calls back, she likes to make plans, that's Jane! It shouldn't be any different with DIL just because she married your son. Give her the same space you'd give a good friend with that type of boundaries, try to shift the perspective from this is my SON to this is how DIL is. Because bottom line, this has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with in law or family issues. This is a personal boundary issue of your DIL's.
As far as your DS, I will tell you my DH at times doesn't make things easier. Especially when we first moved in. MIL would do one of her drop ins or last minute phone calls and I'd say to DH that I don't like that, I don't respond well, can you ask your Mom to give me some time and warning. And the thing is, DH knows how I am, he knows I am organized, he knows his Mom is spontaneous. So what would he say to his Mom? "Mom, can you call before you come over?" When that wasn't the boundary, lol. It should have been "Mom, Pam is organized, she likes to know things ahead of time. It's better if you call and set stuff up with her, she doesn't respond well to last minute things." As his wife and his housemate, I deserve that consideration to live in a "safe" home to me. Just as DH deserves that consideration, if my father came in and took over his house and made him feel uncomfortable, it is my DUTY to protect my husband and protect his "safe" zone.
And again, I'm like this with every single person in my life. Which I'm betting your DIL is too. It's nothing personal but the more my MIL made it personal, made it out to be some attack on her, the more I pulled away and saw her less and less. I would do it with a friend, with my parents, with my neighbors if they all behaved the way my MIL did in regards to my boundaries. It was not personal until she made it that way.
My advice, don't make it personal. Drop the rope. Your DIL is an organized person and likes to be in charge of her plans. And that's it.
Laurie, I'm going to add my 2 cents here....
consider this....no, it is so wrong for DIL's to cut off family but, what if, the MIL has been ignoring boundaries for weeks, months, years? I mean, I remember as a DIL, being so afraid to call my MIL on it, so I left it go, on and on and on, and it built up and built up until I actually felt like a prisoner in my own home....she was constantly calling, constantly coming over, honestly, we couldn't even have any physical intimacy, he worked, I worked....and we only had weekends....if we wanted to have a matinee, we first had to consider, "Oh we better not, b/c mom might come over"....what in the world kind of life is that? Or, how bout, ok, we are taking Sunday off, we're going to have some "me" time together, and engage in some mental intimacy as well as physical intimacy, and snuggle watch a movie together have some pop corn, or watch a foot ball game, and "MOM calls"????????? Or worse, stops by...the whole mood is gone...that special day we planned is gone forever, now, is that any way to live? Or MIL calls and asks, "how come you were not in church today??????"
My God I thought, give us a break, and actually, she made it very easy for me to not like her....
Do you know, that my MIL and I love her to this very day....was a good part of the reason, why I left my son's father? She was awful....and now I understand, but back then, I was young, selfish, anxious to have my own life, family....husband, and she was not able to let go....and just give us some privacy...our counselor finally told her son, my husband, if you don't cut the chord, your marriage will fail....and it did....
does anyone here want to be responsible for they're son's marriage not working out???? I sure as heck did not want to be....b/c if it does and MIL is part of the reason why, believe me, son will never again feel the same way about you...he will love you, but please, consider this....
I was there and I felt it....
thanks laurie! ;)
well, it sure seems that way doesn't it. DIL being upset over my dropping off gifts. when i called earlier in the day to say i was going to run errands and would drop off their gifts on the way home, she did not answer. i left a voice message. ( i did not know when i left a voice message she was avoiding me) so imagine my surprise when i did arrive, only to see her door OPEN.
that is when i thought to my self, "self, maybe she didn't hear the phone, give her another call and let her know your in the area, and will be there in about 5 mins" . i truly thought i was giving her the benefit of the doubt, giving her another call. she had 4 hours in between the first call and the next. if she didn't want me to drop stuff off, she could have called and said, well, anything, and i would have obliged her. but she did not. she chose NOT to call, she chose to AVOID me all together. we both are guilty of dropping things off on each others porches. that is nothing new. if she didn't want me to know she was home, close the door. so if that is what upset her, how petty. i believe i did give her a "heads up" she chose to ignore/avoid instead. is she upset/ embarrassed because she "got caught avoiding me"? leaving out the garage when she thought i was 5 mins away? ok, i can see embarrassed at her behavior, i don't expect an apology. i have "dropped the rope". i am trying to move forward, with the ole, lets pretend it didn't happen" attitude we as MIL must cope with once in a while. pam, you sound like a very fair and endearing person. you didn't cut off your MIL for crossing a boundary, as laurie said. this is the first time she has done this. "cut off" i mean. i guess that's my missunderstanding. and by the way, yes, she is organized and in charge, and I LOVE THAT ABOUT HER!
Quote from: Laurie on October 12, 2010, 09:11:00 AM
Quote from: pam1 on October 12, 2010, 08:35:01 AM
Bottom line, I am the rock of this household (I sound so uppity lol) I make the schedules, I keep the kids cleaned and fed, I make sure everything is running smoothly and ticking along. I make sure the trash gets out on time (before me, DH would often forget trash day and would have 2 months, yes you heard me, 2 months worth of trash sitting in his garage.)
Pam
I love the way you phrased this paragraph for starts. Ok the garbage part was a little over the top...j/k.
I feel that everyone has boundaries and they should be respected. But you also did not say that if you MIL overstepped that boundary at any time would she be forever cut off from the family. I think that is where some are having issues, there is a huge difference between crossing over an invisible line with good intentions, vs crossing over the line as in child molestation, and some people almost seem to react to the first as aggressively as I would act toward the latter.
I had two of my kids home for the weekend with their bf and gf. Hectic as everyone had planned activities (thankfully not really including us) there was the Renaissance Fair for one, scuba diving for the other.. just busy. The house was the home base and all I had to do was to cook and keep the kitchen straight... I WAS EXHAUSTED by the end of the weekend and waved vigorously as they drove down the street heading for their homes. This was a not so gentle reminder of what life was like when we had younger kids.. As we forget the pain of birthing, we also forget how many hours a day can be demanded of you for the family.
What I think you may have one up over Erm's DIL, is you don't sound like you are in a power struggle with your MIL. If her DIL does refuse to return calls, and refuses to attempt to communicate then she very well may be egging on a bad relationship.
Now that this situation has escalated to where it is now, do you think there is a remedy? You don't strike me as a person who would ask that someone grovel at your feet for acceptance, so I really am interested in hearing your views. What I did get from your posting Pam was simple... I heard mutual respect being applied, no where did I hear you say, my way or.... Thanks... Laurie
LOL, I'm serious Laurie. 2 Months of TRASH. Dead serious. I swear, I wish we just bought a new house together instead of moving into his.
I'm not sure that Erma's DIL is in cut off. I think she and DS are probably in a space stage which is completely normal. DS is doing what comes normally to him, dropping in at Moms. Erma and DS are ok with that. DIL is not. Is that bad? Take a step back and look at it....No, it's not. It's enforcing boundaries AND keeping autonomy. DIL is doing what works best for her (making plans) while her DH is doing what comes best for him and Mom, dropping in. It can BOTH work.
The trick is, approach each of them as individuals. Erma, DS and DIL are all in a readjustment period which is completely normal. Erma and DS can keep up their relationship. And in the mean time, Erma and DIL can take this time to readjust. Erma *now* knows how to approach DIL. Make plans with her, that is the key to DIL. The golden ticket, the green light....it's all right there. Make plans with her, give her time. You want to see her? How about going with the 3 day rule. You want to see her Friday....call her on Tuesday. Erma has a TON of options right now to steer the ship back on course.
As far as cut off, I don't think in Erma's situation it is even near that close, I think that is jumping the gun. All it is is space time.
In my situation, DH has tossed around cut off. That's another topic b/c I think he says it so he doesn't have to continue to confront all of these issues, not just this one. Also, as I've said....we've had this issue with MIL going on for over 2 YEARS. This is extremely frustrating. Yes, at first there was bad communication. Now? I'm not sure what the problem is, other than MIL just doesn't want to abide by my boundaries. And frankly, I don't get it. Her sister, aunt in law (AIL) is so similar to me, it's eerie. But for some reason, MIL has no problem not dropping by her house, not calling last minute etc. MIL is able to accept AIL, but not me.
It's a difficult time b/c now that it has gone on for so long, I start to wonder and combined with other issues, if MIL just feels some sort of entitlement to my life since I married her son. When DH and I were in counseling and we'd bring up the different things that happened and DH would say over and over again how MIL just didn't understand. And really, it was the same dang thing over and over and over again (lol) but MIL always had a different excuse/reason. Finally the counselor just said flat out "DH, do you realize it just doesn't matter that your mother doesn't understand. All that matter is that she respects it. She needs to respect Pam" And then BINGO, all the lights went on for DH.
During the summer DD and I both came down with something awful. Both laid up in bed, we both could barely move and DH had to go to work. Later in the evening MIL called and wanted to meet us the next morning for breakfast. We couldn't, we were sick and even if we weren't, that is the kind of the thing that drives me nuts lol. Make plans!!!! Anyway, MIL went on and on about how we didn't love her, didn't care for her, DH is arguing with her, I'm waiting for my chicken broth DH was making (hadn't eaten all day) DH was going to give DD an oatmeal bath etc. You get the drift and here MIL and DH are arguing over something when DD and I are both so SICK and need help, all over an issue that could have been solved since Day 1 if MIL would respect me. I was on a short fuse then, I was sick, taking care of sick DD all day when I could barely MOVE and then had to deal with that same dang issue AGAIN. I about threw in the towel at that point and I think if I had been slightly less sick where I could get up and hang up the phone on her, I would have. That was NOT the time. And after years of dealing with this issue where MIL at any point could have given us a few days, a little space to make plans instead of demanding show times.....sometimes it just doesn't seem worth it.
I'm not saying it's worthy of cut off but I am saying that it can lead there. You just don't know how much someone will take, how far it will take them before they break. You don't know every nuance of their life. That's why it's better to listen to them, to hear them, to give them the space to be them.
Creme
I was not trying to inject the worse case scenarios into Erma's postings. I never got from what she wrote that she had all but jumped between them as they slept.
You seem to be blaming your own MIL for the demise of your marriage and that may be the case, but do we go through life afraid of having relationships? By asking my son to understand that his family would like to celebrate life with him and his wife on occasion, is this jeopardizing his marriage.
The scenarios you have chosen to share, I feel show a lack of respect between the husband and wife not the MIL. I'm not alone when I can say that if I'm having an intimate moment with my husband... ahhh he's not picking up the phone for anyone.
Pam brought up a great point.. with our never ending forms of communication, everyone feels like you have to respond immediately and you don't. I was lectured by my own son because I didn't pick up the phone twice when he called within a 3 minute time frame. I was out in the yard, I garden to escape the demands of the world, so no I would not have my phone with me. If a couple chooses to let outside influences alter what they were doing to that extent then I can see how a marriage could fail.
Once again you and I will disagree when you say, "
does anyone here want to be responsible for they're son's marriage not working out???? I sure as heck did not want to be....b/c if it does and MIL is part of the reason why, believe me, son will never again feel the same way about you...he will love you, but please, consider this...." because I do not feel that Erma has invaded their lives with unnatural demands.. I don't see where she is demanding anything, and I still believe that had the DIL be courteous at any point to return one single phone call then there probably would not have been an issue.
and cream, i don't meddle like you MIL did, sorry for that for you. but i did learn through this that somepeople cant be taken at face value. i by no means "just fell off the potato truck" i have dealt with many people who have lied straight to my face. i guess i just never dreamed it would be someone i love and cherish.
:'(
Pam and Erma... I was generalizing when I used the term cut off.. There are so many people here who cut off a family members as a first response.... I only meant to imply that Pam sounded more mature and self assured and that cutting someone out of her life did not come through as a requirement for setting and maintaining boundaries in your posting .... Sorry for the confusion..
Quote from: Laurie on October 12, 2010, 10:03:18 AM
Creme
I was not trying to inject the worse case scenarios into Erma's postings. I never got from what she wrote that she had all but jumped between them as they slept.
You seem to be blaming your own MIL for the demise of your marriage and that may be the case, but do we go through life afraid of having relationships? By asking my son to understand that his family would like to celebrate life with him and his wife on occasion, is this jeopardizing his marriage.
The scenarios you have chosen to share, I feel show a lack of respect between the husband and wife not the MIL. I'm not alone when I can say that if I'm having an intimate moment with my husband... ahhh he's not picking up the phone for anyone.
Pam brought up a great point.. with our never ending forms of communication, everyone feels like you have to respond immediately and you don't. I was lectured by my own son because I didn't pick up the phone twice when he called within a 3 minute time frame. I was out in the yard, I garden to escape the demands of the world, so no I would not have my phone with me. If a couple chooses to let outside influences alter what they were doing to that extent then I can see how a marriage could fail.
Once again you and I will disagree when you say, "
does anyone here want to be responsible for they're son's marriage not working out???? I sure as heck did not want to be....b/c if it does and MIL is part of the reason why, believe me, son will never again feel the same way about you...he will love you, but please, consider this...." because I do not feel that Erma has invaded their lives with unnatural demands.. I don't see where she is demanding anything, and I still believe that had the DIL be courteous at any point to return one single phone call then there probably would not have been an issue.
yanno Lauri, because my mind moves a thousand miles a minute, I believe that is part of the problem....I wasn't interjecting that Erma was being that way...and I love my ex MIL to peaces now, and fully understand what she was doing, she wasn't mean, a bit controlling yes....and the marriage would have slit up with or without her being so interferring....however, at the time, it didn't help matters....and I'm not at all bitter about it, but better for it.
QuoteI was not trying to inject the worse case scenarios into Erma's postings. I never got from what she wrote that she had all but jumped between them as they slept.
Lauri, where did that come from????? ;D I don't know if it was this thread or another, that I said you made some very good points....and I never said you wrote that she all but jumped between them as they slept...where do you come up with this stuff????? really?
I don't disagree with you and feel you make some very valid points....
Quote from: erma on October 12, 2010, 10:06:48 AM
and cream, i don't meddle like you MIL did, sorry for that for you. but i did learn through this that somepeople cant be taken at face value. i by no means "just fell off the potato truck" i have dealt with many people who have lied straight to my face. i guess i just never dreamed it would be someone i love and cherish.
:'(
I wasn't saying you meddle like that....and again Iapologize...I was reliving events in my life and sharing...yanno, that is a good point...I'm going to have to specifically mention that when I write about my life experiences....Erma, honestly, I feel you've been handling this situation well, and it's my fault you are taking my post literally like I was talking to you, but I wasn't....it was an example I was sharing with everyone, forgive me for getting off topic....I do that a lot and I shouldn't.
Lauri, I get it and get why you made that statement....
I didn't say my MIL was jumping between the sheets with us....what I said was, or the point I was trying to make here, and not to Erma, but sharing with everyone....that my MIL was so intrusive, as to stop by constantly without calling first....never considering that maybe we needed some me time....
DING!!! YOUR FRIES ARE DONE!!! :D
"INTITELMENT" yes! that's it! i guess i do feel kinda entitled to her a bit because she is married to my son. WOW! what an eye opener! i guess i thought if we open our hearts, extend our love, expand our family, take her under our wing, that means shes part of OUR family.
ok, i see it now, :o she is not part of our family, she has her own.
ok, point taken, it hurts, but ill take it.
now what? i plan on giving her space and time. any other suggestions?
and thanks laurie, cream, and pam! i get it!
Quote from: cremebrulee on October 12, 2010, 10:22:05 AM
Lauri, I get it and get why you made that statement....
I didn't say my MIL was jumping between the sheets with us....what I said was, or the point I was trying to make here, and not to Erma, but sharing with everyone....that my MIL was so intrusive, as to stop by constantly without calling first....never considering that maybe we needed some me time....
Cream.. it was all encompassing phrase.. nothing more
Quote from: erma on October 12, 2010, 10:29:31 AM
DING!!! YOUR FRIES ARE DONE!!! :D
"INTITELMENT" yes! that's it! i guess i do feel kinda entitled to her a bit because she is married to my son. WOW! what an eye opener! i guess i thought if we open our hearts, extend our love, expand our family, take her under our wing, that means shes part of OUR family.
ok, i see it now, :o she is not part of our family, she has her own.
ok, point taken, it hurts, but ill take it.
now what? i plan on giving her space and time. any other suggestions?
and thanks laurie, cream, and pam! i get it!
Whew, I'm so glad you do, there for a moment, I thought you misunderstood me, of course, I don't always write clearly....now when Laurie calls me on things, well... ::) but when both of you saw it, now I need to sit up and take notice....Just kidding Laurie...
yes, give her space, and lots of time.....
gosh, when my son and his wife got together, I was extatic to have a daughter, and thought things were going to be exactly the same as they were, (little did I even guess) LOL....
I believe for now, lets give her time, and see what happens, in the meantime, come in here and write with us...maybe here and there you'll pick some things up....maybe not...read, get involved in something new, and forget about them for a while, and see where life leads you all, hopefully back together, in a whole new way....
Oh you make me so happy....
Creme
DING, your fries are done....LOL, good one...
Quote from: Laurie on October 12, 2010, 10:33:14 AM
Quote from: cremebrulee on October 12, 2010, 10:22:05 AM
Lauri, I get it and get why you made that statement....
I didn't say my MIL was jumping between the sheets with us....what I said was, or the point I was trying to make here, and not to Erma, but sharing with everyone....that my MIL was so intrusive, as to stop by constantly without calling first....never considering that maybe we needed some me time....
Cream.. it was all encompassing phrase.. nothing more
well, phrase or not, it thru me for a loop, it really sounded creepy...and not at all what I meant....not near what I meant....so, see...yanno kiddo, you and I have a history of locking horns, and perfect examples of how two personalities can clash....
perverted mil would be a new topic
Quote from: Laurie on October 12, 2010, 10:48:51 AM
perverted mil would be a new topic
huh??? :o
you lost me, I thought you said it was just a phrase?
i know, i know, i think that darn potato truck ran over me!! ;D ;D ;D
Erma, don't you just love those aha moments?
My only other suggestion is to maybe take a look at what other issues the entitlement thing could have affected. I know in my situation there are a lot of things, sometimes even little things, that just plain add up and cause me to step back quite a bit. Some of it I think is pretty obvious but I also think there tends to be a blind spot when it comes to me, I'm supposed to be ok with everything DH is ok with etc.
weird how one word is all it takes sometimes to change the whole dynamic of things. yes, i have been thinking of ALL things that i may have done or said, to cause her reactions to me. however, i still believe the rude inconsiderate behavior was not justified. maybe in her eyes, but not mine. I'm going to chalk that up to age difference.
BUT, i am from this point on going to be more Conservative in my approach to her. i feel we already walk on egg shells, so this may be a little tricky. i deeply want to mend things with her, more than that, i wish her to feel comfortable like a warm blanket when their around.
UPDATE: OK ladies, i had a phone conversation w/ DIL last nite. i called my son to find out about something that concerned my GC, and, behold!!!, my DIL ANSWERED THE PHONE!!!!! ;D this has not happened for a long time! i remember my mother once telling me, when your talking on the phone, smile, people can hear your smile! so, I did! i think she heard my smile, i was truly happy to hear her voice! we blabbed for 45 minutes! we talked about GC, the holidays, gifts we want to get for my son, ect... it was nice.
in going back to my "ding your fries are done" moment, i was careful not to be "PRESUMPTOUIS" in my thinking. IT WORKED! she seemed happy, not giving me just yes or no answers, but really conversing. oh happy day! i feel like doing the snoopy dance! i don't know what happened, maybe they (DS/ DIL) had a talk, i don't know, i don't care. its a beginning. i will be aware of my presumptions, and entitlements from now on, all from my heart mind you, but she is who she is, and my DS picked her for better or worse. and we will prevail! (sounds so cheesy huh) ;)
so for today, i will do the snoopy dance, and enjoy it, for tomorrow will be another day, god willing!
cheers ladies! ;D
Erma, that's terrific!!! ;D ;D ;D
That is SO awesome, Erma!
Echoing everyone else here, Erma, that is great news...congratulations....
Erma, I'm so glad you made contact with your DIL. You sound like a wonderful person, your original post nearly broke my heart. I really don't want your family to live like mine, that is why I posted earlier. Enjoy your lovely family. I wish you all the best.
Rosie
Rosie....you are so sweet.
See....we can be a great big family....WWU.
Love