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Problem Solving => Daughter in Laws and/or Son in Laws => Topic started by: Chrisky on August 27, 2011, 01:51:44 PM

Title: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 27, 2011, 01:51:44 PM
Hello.  I been lurking here for quite some time and have finally convinced myself that I should get other opinions about my DS & DIL situation.
To tell you the truth, I am embarassed to say to any one how badly my DH & I have been treated by them.  This has been going on for over 9 years now, and has come to a head, again.  I say again, because I have already had a 1 1/2 hour conversation with DIL about 5 years ago where she called me & DH uncaring, unsupportive and that only her family was kind & caring.  I think I'll just list some things and see where this leads.
1. We have 2 GD.
2. He is our only son.
3. We had contributed quite a bit to their wedding costs & purchase of 1st home, as well as some minor help with 2nd home purchase. This was something we wanted to do for them.
4. We live 1 1/4 hrs.  away from them.  We do not show up unannounced, always check when it's convenient to come.
5. We do not criticize how they've raised the GD. As a matter of fact, DIL is excellent, and they have both done a wonderful job.
6. Initially when we visited them, & tried to engage her in any conversation, she would always differ to DS, never answer us directly.  Only recently within the past 2 years have they actually discussed any of their future plans as far as renovating their home, or her health.  She has had some health problems, but that seems to be in the past now.
7. Our DS's business is such that there are times when he is away from home for a few days, or has to work exceptionally long hours, which we don't know about.
8.  So when we call, leave message, there are times when no matter how many messages we leave, eventually only he calls us back after 3 or 4 days.  In all the times they have been together, she has actually only called us back 4 times.
9. We are the 'second-class' grandparents.  The only time we have actually taken care of the GDs is when we spent a week with them,on vacation, and actually took care of them for an evening and a few hours on another day. 
10. We leave messages for the GDs, and never get a call back.
Now, I will admit here that I did put my foot in it this Feb.  We were going away, and DS said when we see DIL on Skype, just call her and we can speak to the kids.  That comment just made by blood boil, so I questionedbthat statement, saying 'she'll actually answer us?'  He wasn't too pleased with my comment, I immediately apologized and said 'but it's true, she never calls us or returns our messages'

Subsequently, things have been strained, and DS first e-mailed us and asked why we 'hated' DIL.  We said we don't, but we feel like second-class GPs.
Now he says DH doesn't respect her.  We are going to see him in a few days to discuss this, but DIL will not be there.  Not much use IMO, as she is the one with the problem.
Sorry, for this long post, I'm a nervous wreck, because I know if things don't go well she will deny us access to our GDs. To tell you the truth if it wasn't for the GDs, we'd totally ignore DS & DIL.
Anybody have any suggestions?


Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Doe on August 27, 2011, 03:50:30 PM
Hi Chrisky -

I wrote a whole reply, then deleted it, newbie that I am.  Sorry if the post shows up twice!

I wanted to welcome you and tell you that this forum has helped me get my sense of humor about this MIL role and I hope it can help lighted your situation.

I am reckoning with this denial of GC access a little myself and have come to realize that I can practice self-abnegation only so far.  If I have to make myself into the cartoon image that my DIL has of the perfect MIL, then my GC will never know who I am truly.  That doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

I hope that you will make some peace with yourself about what you want before you go to this meeting.  It sounds like they are working overtime to misunderstand your intentions and behavior so I wouldn't expect a lot of understanding of your explanations of your intentions and behaviors.   

Good luck and come back here if you need bolstering after the meeting!
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 27, 2011, 04:22:23 PM
Doe, thanks for your reply.  I've made myself some notes so that I can keep focused on what we want and not get too emotional.  All we want is to have more interaction with the GDs, and if DIL doesn't want to be there, at this moment it's perfectly alright with me.  We just feel that DS is drawing away from us and has let this situation get out of hand.  DIL is extremely stubborn, is used to getting her own way, and DS doesn't like to argue or have any disagreements of any kind.  We're definitely in a no win situation. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Doe on August 27, 2011, 05:09:38 PM
I do understand about a stubborn DIL!  On the other hand, a quote that I try to keep in mind:  "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle."  It may be that they are struggling with something that has nothing to do with you.   Who knows.   All you can offer is your best.  Good luck -
Title: Hello
Post by: sesamejane on August 27, 2011, 06:35:43 PM
Hi Chrisky,

I am a newby too, but these are my thoughts.  It sounds like ds and dil are lucky to have you take an interest in them. You have certainly helped them out a great deal.  I have a question though.  Have you and dh ever asked to mind the children? or perhaps to take them for a weekend?  Maybe ds and dil would like a break.  it could be, especially after 9 years, that you and dil will never be close and perhaps your son is busy with whatever is going on in their household. 

I would not make any accusations re: dil.  Maybe something like:  "I know in the past that you felt we were uncaring or unsupportive of you two.  I want you to know that nothing could be further from the truth.  We love you and want only the best for you and your family. "  And then be quiet and see what she or he says. AFter some mending, perhaps, "We would really like to have the girls over for the weekend sometime before Christmas - maybe do some [xmas shopping, bake cookies, go see santa, etc. you fill in the blank]."

YOu are very generous parents, and everyone expresses their care and concern in different ways. Dil is used to her family and feels safe there I guess.  I am sorry she has not embraced you but that may never change.  Ds is caught in the middle.  Gp play such an important role in kids lives.  I hope they hear you and it goes well.  Post again. 

Lots of wisdom on these pages.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Ross99 on August 27, 2011, 06:38:08 PM
Chrisky- you've come to the right place for help and support. Your situation is virtually a carbon copy of my own and so many others.
It seems to follow the same pattern. MIL is especially viewed as a villain...almost like its instinctual on the part of the DIL. Son becomes a dish rag trying to keep peace in his home. DIL stops coming on visits. Phone calls go unanswered and every "signal" from them says "go away". Grandchildren are used as pawns by the DIL to keep In- laws at a distance . Son calls for "meetings" to discuss the situation...but he's hopeless and confused trying to keep peace because he's just as confused as you are!
Guess what I'm getting at is, this is more about them than anything you could possibly have done. All you did was exist and your son and DIL are who they are.
It's heartbreaking for you, I well know. Your son has turned into someone you don't even recognize and his wife, who doesn't really even know anything about you is slowly turning him against his own family. Every word you say is viewed with suspicion, every look mis-judged. Yet if her own mother said or looked the same way, she wouldn't give it a second thought.
I truly do hope things work out for you with your son and DIL...though your DIL is already withdrawing from spending any time with you and your DH. That puts your son in a pretty difficult place. You sound like a loving, mature adult, so I'm sure you already know his loyalties must be with his wife.
Something said often here is that you were a whole person before having children. You are still a whole and valued person with or without them. Go on being the wonderful, sweet person you are. I can tell just from your post that you treat others with respect....you deserve the same in return. It is not unreasonable to expect that from your son and DIL. You are fine just the way you are. As for your son and DIL.....dont look for logic where there is none.


Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 27, 2011, 08:31:22 PM
Welcome Chrisky :)

Please read the Forum Agreement under the category Open Me First.  Nothing wrong with your post, we ask all new members to do so :)

I actually don't see a whole lot of mistreatment.  Perhaps mismatched expectations, I do think expecting DIL to tell you things about her health is a little much IMO.  I think the best thing to do is to work on your relationship with DS and I would think he could give you updates on the gc and make plans with you.

Glad you found us!
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pen on August 27, 2011, 09:33:52 PM
Chrisky, welcome. I think that being kept from your GC and told by DIL that you are uncaring & unsupportive after you helped financially is a form of mistreatment. I do agree with Pam that you might want to work on your relationship with DS since he is the key. We've heard a lot of stories like yours here, mine included, and it seems to come down to the DS needing to step up to assure DIL that she comes first but his FOO is still important to him.

Thank goodness most DILs aren't out to separate DH from his fOO, but it does happen. I hope that's not the case with your DIL and that DS can be open to helping build a better relationship between you. Keep reading and writing, it can help during these painful times.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 28, 2011, 06:20:13 AM
Thank you everyone for your replies.  Reading them is helping me deal with this.
Sesamejane, we have continually offered to take care of the GDs by babysitting, taking them to a zoo, or a butterfly museum.  Three summers have come and gone and not one of our suggestions has materialized.  DIL manages to keep the GDs enrolled in summer school, day camp, off to their cottage to stay with her parents, family gatherings or birthday parties (not our family though).  In the past 3 1/2 years - 2008 - 2011- 44 months, we have seen them 28 times.  Both DH and I quite understand that they have other things to do and people to see, not just us, but it is disconcerting when speaking with the GDs on the phone, that they seem to think we are so far away, and ask when we will see them.  When they were younger we used to say 'soon', but now we say 'anytime', it's up to your mommy & daddy.  They invariablly ask to come to our house, and our response is also you can anytime you want.  I don't want to put the GDs in the middle, but I don't want to lie to them either.  Therefore that's why we say it's up to Mommy & Daddy.   Thanks again everyone.  I'll post the results of our meeting.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: herbalescapes on August 28, 2011, 06:45:02 AM
Is there a cultural difference between you and DIL?  When you mentioned that for the first years she always deferred to her husband rather than answering you directly, that immediately went through my mind.  Some people just don't like talking on the phone.  Or maybe she and your son have a deal that she deals with her family and he deals with his, so not returning calls isn't a slam against you, it's keeping an agreement they have.  I'm just trying to play devil's advocate her.  Maybe her health issues are/were more serious than you know and are a good reason they have been remote with you.  I have an uncle who didn't tell his wife he needed surgery until the morning of when he asked her to drop him off at the hospital on the way to work.  True story - some people are just that private about their health. 

Since you don't get to visit - in person or on phone - with GD that much, try writing to them.  Email, snail mail.  Make sure you don't criticize the parents in anyway (and what you consider criticism and what the parents consider criticism can be worlds apart, so be extra careful) and don't come off too needy.  Just tell them what's going on in your life.  Maybe make a little scrapbook. 

Good luck.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Begonia on August 28, 2011, 06:55:58 AM
Quote from: Chrisky on August 28, 2011, 06:20:13 AM
and ask when we will see them.  When they were younger we used to say 'soon', but now we say 'anytime', it's up to your mommy & daddy. 

Hi Chrisky:  Welcome here.  I am a newby too and so many things are similar about your interactions as GP.  I posted your quote because I said something similar to my GD on the phone and it caused WWIII.  After that call my DS and DIL said I could not call anymore.  And that lasted a couple years and still is not back to normal.   So even on birthday cards I do not say anything about when I will see them.  In retrospect, I can understand how that seemed to make my DS and DIL out as the enemy for not letting the GC do something they thought was fun. (And I was mad that DS and DIL were using the kids against me).  What I forgot was that DS and DIL are the parents and they have that power, like it or not.   You can bet I never stepped in that mud pie again!!!   8)

Good for you to see your GC  28 times~~~I wish my number were that high! :) 

Lots of good wishes to you.  What works for me is just to step back and give them space.  It sounds like their lives are just packed with stuff...which is the case with my GC too.  Good luck on your interactions with all. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Sassy on August 28, 2011, 08:24:20 AM
Welcome Chrisky to WWU.  I agree with Pam that these problems seems to be rooted in a lot of mismatched expecations. And more practical obstacles, such as busy schedules.   Although of course it would be wonderful if DIL was more engaged with you, it's also not mistreatment for her to be more reserved than you would like.  I've found it's fairly common for people not to be willing discuss financial (which extensive home renovations fall under) and health matters in casual conversation; some people feel that's private.   I understand that especially because DS works so much, it seems DIL would be willing to step up more to communicate "in his place" so to speak. But if she and DS simply don't feel that is her position to fill, that probably explains it best.  I don't know if that responsibility is something that someone outside their marriage can assign to her.

When you meet with your DS, I would keep the conversation about DS.  Not about his wife.  It seems safest.  If DS doesn't return your calls for 3 or 4 days, that seems to me, to be on him, not DIL.  I'm not sure how many messages you leave within those 3 or 4 days before you get a response.  But since you're aware of his return call pattern, and that his work requires travel and long hours, I'd leave only one message and then let him get back to you when he is ready.  I don't think that's something that's personal rejection, more of a just the way things are for them right now.  I don't know if it's appropriate to ask DS to tell you of his work schedule in advance, unless he knows in advance you two may need to reach him - say in regards to a scheduled surgery or, for instance, a hurricane headed your way. He may not always get a lot of advance notice.  So many details are required for work travel, especially for families with young children.  And if his workload is heavy, that in itself counters his ability to keep others informed about it. 

If the children are young enough to still need babysitters, they probably also are to young to retreive voicemail messages.  I imagine they would also need need help placing phone calls to you.  So I wouldn't take that as rejection by the grandchildren.   If you'd like the grandchildren to telephone you, that would be something to mention to DS that you'd like him to coordinate.

I would imagine the distance of more than an hour might present certain practical difficulties in babysitting.  For instance, if they'd like a two hour sitter to go to a movie, that would require more travel time for you (2 1/2 hours round trip) than actual sitting time. That may be factored into them limiting their requests.

The last line of your first post is something I wonder if DS and DIL can sense.  That if it wasn't for the grandchildren, you'd totally ignore DS and DIL.  Approach this meeting with an open heart and the goal to listen for better understanding about your son.  My hope for you in doing so is you won't feel as hurt by what sounds like, to me, a very busy DS trying to juggle a marriage, young children, a demanding career, house renovations, and so forth.


Title: Re: Hello
Post by: justanoldgrandma on August 28, 2011, 12:20:45 PM
I can see your heartbreak; you've been patient and extremely generous financially and considerate also.  Some poster mentioned that ds and dil probably don't want to discuss her health, his travel schedule, or house repairs.  I find that young adults like to be so independent that they don't want the gp to know much about their lives; they feel this is all their business, not yours.  This is hard for me, also!

We like to know about future house scoutings/buying of homes; ds's out of town schedule, and would be concerned about health issues.  But we find that a lot of things happen that we aren't kept "in the loop" about and questions seem to be intrusive to them at times.  It's hard to know that the other gps (maternal) may know a lot more than we do, bc dils chats on the phone w mother; I am fortunate that our dils do return calls and emails but we still are less informed..... they just have a much more personal relationship, of course.

But I do get the impression from dss that some of my suggestions on house buying, etc., is not my business, so I let it go.  I recall I didn't keep my own parents informed much, either, about those things as we weren't regular phone callers..... my parents had their own lives and were less concentrated on ours....... something I need to do myself..... get my own interests separate from the gc and their parents.

I don't know if your son may feel indebted somewhat to you for the financial help on the houses and therefore less anxious to share info about the house?  I know when giving or loaning money, the recipient sometimes feels a bit guilty and want more privacy for fear of the subject coming up although you haven't done that.

There may be a lot of friction between your ds and dil bc of his long work hours and frequent travel.  Although he has to do these things, dil may resent his absences which would make her more determined to ignore your phone calls.  Some young wives are so focused on their children that they don't realize what the husband may have to do to keep his job.

Our sons don't keep us informed all the time about their work, either; we usually find out in passing.  They have a lot on their plates making the wives feel better about their trips....  I agree w Sassy on that and her suggestion of leaving only one message he can return later when he's home.  The frequent calls probably irritate dil since she's so private.

I agree with the others that when you meet w ds that you keep all problems and conversation away from the topic of dil.  He will only feel that although you have reason to feel neglected, he will only defend her and be more angry w you. 

I liked what Sesame suggested on what to say to ds:  "I know in the past that you felt we were uncaring or unsupportive of you two.  I want you to know that nothing could be further from the truth.  We love you and want only the best for you and your family. "  And then be quiet and see what she or he says."  (I forgot how to quote!)

I try to make sure my own dss and dils know we love them, not just as the parents of the gc we adore.  And I know you want a close relationship w your son and in no way want to lose him.   I do hope after some good convo w son, you can suggest seeing gds more often; it may come later; you may need to reassure son of your love for him and for his wife before the "seeing the gds more often" suggestion. 

A wise lady told me that although she didn't care for a dil much, she prayed about it and decided that since her son loved this woman she (the mil) needed to love her, too, difficult as it was.  She tried to put the thoughts in her heart and head.

I do hope you can reach ds and have more access to gds.  I know how it hurts not to.  I get upset when I think our sons are angry w something I say; they are still "our boys" although I know the attachment has to be lessened. 

Sending lots of good vibes to you! 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 28, 2011, 03:33:05 PM
Quote from: herbalescapes on August 28, 2011, 06:45:02 AM
Is there a cultural difference between you and DIL?
Thanks for your suggestions.  No there isn't a cultural difference, she's just like that. 
I like your idea of snail mail.  The GDs are too young to use e-mail yet, but I have sent them a card or 2 and they really enjoyed that.  That's one thing I'll definitely keep up and they enjoy receiving mail addressed to them, as long as parents pick up the mail.  Where they live, it's not delivered to their door.  But I can always give our son a heads up to check the mail box.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 28, 2011, 03:55:17 PM
Begonia, good point about "it's up to mommy & daddy".  I'll have to think of something else to say, maybe "I'll speak to Daddy and find out what we can arrange?"

Sassy, thanks for your reply.  We don't want details about their financial situation at all, just a general conversation about what they might be thinking of doing.  As far as DIL's health is concerned, we already were told it was serious, but whenever we ask the reply from her is always "I'm fine", and months later we find out she's not nor has ever been fine and they've been dealing with this and not mentioning anything.  I guess I'm more open and even though I don't go into details about my health, when I'm not feeling well, I will try to explain the reasons so people don't think I'm being rude to them or ignoring them.

Justanoldgrandma, yes young people like to keep things close to the chest.  I think sometimes DS & DIL feel that if they tell us things we'll be critical.  But that hasn't been the case here at all, in fact we've constantly praised DS in his business venture and have told DIL & both of them how proud we are that our GDs are so well behaved and well spoken. 

I really appreciate everyone's responses.  I was so very nervous about our meeting with DS, it happened today.  I will post again once I get all my thoughts in order and let everyone know what happened.   
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Sassy on August 28, 2011, 06:39:31 PM
Chrisky, just so you know I did not get the impression you wanted details about their financial lives from your post.  You were clear you were trying to make conversation and show an interest in what's going on their lives.  I didn't think you were prying or inappropriate to do so.  If you knew someone has health problems and didn't inquire how she was, that could be construed as not caring.  Sometimes it becomes, what's a person to do?  I know how hard it can be to walk that line.   And conversation about the weather and the Dodgers can be so boring.  I only mentioned privacy just as another plausible explanation for her deferring to her husband on those topics.  Sometimes we can feel rejection when it's not about us, it's about them.

Looking forward to your update. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: justanoldgrandma on August 28, 2011, 07:03:07 PM
I'm with Sassy; I can tell that you and your dh are very supportive and noncritical.  I was just going by my dss who may ask for an opinion on a house and may not!  Actually, my dills are less touchy on those issues than dss bc dss feel it's their decision...... very thin line for us, between giving advice and acting like we don't care!

DILs are fairly private on their health issues; share w moms, I'm sure, which is understandable.  Have opened a bit more w time.  However, they haven't had the health issues your dil has had which makes a difference.   I would feel as you do, finding out later there was a serious issue.

Been thinking of you and hoping the meeting w ds went well. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 28, 2011, 10:38:50 PM
Since I'm up at this ungodly hour, decided to post about our meeting with DS. 
We saw the GDs, spent about 1 1/2 hours with them, it was great, took some pics. I had brought some mini bottles of nail polish for them and they proceeded to paint DH's toe nails this bright sparkly pink colour! It's an on-going joke with them- "only their grandpa wears nail polish"!
Then the GDs left, for lunch at some kiddies restaurant - don't know who picked them up, maybe DIL, but never saw her.
DS made coffee and we started.  I asked him to go first, wanted to know what he meant by we didn't respect her etc.  He did admit that all these little issues have ballooned into something big because of his lack of talking to us sooner.  It seems that it's a lot of little things that bother DIL, but neither of them say anything until 5 years down the road.  Things like DIL doesn't like how I said something, my tone of voice, or she thought we were favouring one GD over the other.  He also said because of his long hours at work, on the weekends he doesn't always want to have people over or go anywhere. We listened, agreed with some of his thoughts, were very conscious of not being critical or interrupting him.

Then I started. I had my list, and first of all showed him how little time we spend with his family. We told him we are very aware of his hours and how it affects family as he knows DH did quite a lot of shift work when DS was growing up, so I was the primary parent.  We told him that our biggest frustration was not seeing or even getting return phone calls from DIL & especially the GDs. I mentioned that we have absolutely no problem with DIL, we think they are both excellent parents, have both done well in raising them, that we're very proud of his accomplishments and the way DIL has spent time with the girls. We said we absolutely loved the time we spent on our one week vacation with them, we enjoyed spending time with him and felt a little closer to DIL.

We mentioned that we feel under a microscope whenever we're with them. That everything we say, do, look, laugh is scrutinized all the time.  We said we have no problem with her parents, in fact enjoy our conversations with them.  We feel that our family is second class, and that there have been occasions when family have been visiting from out of town (older family who they won't see again because they can't travel now) and they are never willing to adjust their schedule to at least visit these people even for an hour.  We said we were very hurt by that. 

We said we've offered countless times to babysit, DH has offered to paint etc. to help because they don't always have the time,
I've e-mailed DIL telling her (when she wasn't well) that I would do anything she asked of me, but to no avail. Not even a thanks, I'll let you know. 

We did say, and I think I repeated myself on this to DS, that we truly believe that DIL will never allow us to babysit the GDs. We've raised him to the best of our ability, we think we did a good job and he has turned out to be a kind, generous, thoughtful, caring person, and that we must have done something right, because DIL married him!

There were other things said, can't remember now, but all in all DH and I thought it went well. I told DS it's too bad DIL isn't here to discuss things, but I am willing to do whatever necessary to improve this situation.  We asked DS, "so now, what's the next step?  What do think we all need to do to improve this situation?"  His answer was that he hadn't thought about it!  (My thinking on this is he has to clear it with DIL, that's OK, but it would have been easier if she had been there)
I told DS, if DIL feels more comfortable, she can e-mail me and tell me one thing I could do to improve this

He listened, we listened, and in the end nothing was resolved.  I'm feeling better about this, not quite as nervous, but I really don't know what to think.  We'll see what happens in the weeks to come. 

Thanks for reading this exceptionally long post, and again I appreciate any thoughts and questions.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Begonia on August 29, 2011, 06:18:51 AM
He listened, we listened, and in the end nothing was resolved.  I'm feeling better about this, not quite as nervous,

Chrisky:  I think your quote says a lot.  That you each were listened to and that you feel better is real progress.  Sometimes there are no definite answers, just a feeling that things are going better.  And sometimes that is enough without dredging up all the why's and wherefore's.  I would congratulate you on this and your DS and DIL too.  Enjoy this first step without expecting more right now--I would bet the rest will sort itself out if you give DS and DIL some space.  And maybe just a little card to DIL saying you appreciate her as a mom to your GC, etc. so she doesn't feel left out, even though she did not want to be included.  Love is so powerful.   
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 29, 2011, 06:52:13 AM
Welcome Chrisky and so sorry for your troubles.  You have got great advice and I agree with the others, I think this upcoming meeting with DS will be important for the relationship.  I think you are really going to have to figure out the words to make him understand that you are not mad at DIL, just upset that you sometimes feel left out.  I think the key is going to be going through DS and hoping he carries the mail back that you guys just want to be more involved with the GC.  I would tread very carefully with any criticism of DIL to him, as most of the time, it seems with the stories here, that backfires badly.  If you can make it about you, GC, DH and him, it might go farther.

You said that DS feels like DH has disrespected DIL?   Was there an incident between them?
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Belle on August 29, 2011, 07:08:44 AM
Chrisky - it sounds like you overall did the right thing....you listened, and you were listened to.  So often, these "meetings" turn into arguments and fights.  I'm so glad that you all had the patience with one another to discuss instead of argue.  Kudos to you.

I'm in agreement that I don't consider any of that real mistreatment, but I definitely see a difference in expectations.  I can't help but notice a reoccuring theme in your posts, and I hope you won't be offended that I'm pointing it out.  You've mentioned several times that you value how DIL has raised your GD's, she's a good mother, etc.  That's a very positive thing, and I think your intentions are good when you say that.  But your DIL may perceive that differently than what you intend, possibly.  Ok, I am pretty sure I would (and I have).  Maybe your DIL is getting the vibe that its all she's good for to you, is to raise your granddaughters.  Maybe go a step further, and value her as the person she is, the person she was before her children.  I don't know, value her in other ways.  Fashion sense?  Career?  Creativity?  Is there a way you can engage her to make her feel valued as more than "Mommy?" 

When (if) speaking with her, I wouldn't even mention the children.  She knows she's a good mother, what she (and all of us!) need to feel is that we have some value other than being a mother.  Maybe she feels like your only interest in her is her children...I can tell you from personal experience, that hurts to think/feel that way...that your sole purpose on this earth is to provide someone else with grandchildren.  It feels rotten.  My own MIL has no idea who I really am.  I would bet $50 right now that she doesn't even remember my eye color or my middle name, or what my favorite hobbies are....all she knows about me is that I gave her a granddaughter that she can't see.  I'm just saying, there's a possibility that our situation may be different if she'd taken some time to know the real me, instead of being so tunnel-vision-focused on my daughter.  I'd be a lot more willing to work on this if I didn't feel absolutely discarded as a person and only thought of as "GC's wicked mommy."  Not that you feel that way, I'm just saying.   

Begonia was so right - love is so powerful.  Maybe your DIL isn't feeling the love.  Maybe she's feeling like you're only interested in her children.  I know you've tried to reach out to her.  Keep trying, but try to engage her in a way that doesn't push her buttons or boundaries or drive her mad or make her feel obligated.  You could invite her to a nice lunch (without the children!) or maybe invite her to go get a pedicure with you, send her a special card, just to her, or maybe send her an orchid.  Who doesn't love orchids? 

And sometimes, in any relationship, we have to create an interest.  Idunno, scrapbooking for example.  If she enjoys scrapbooking maybe try something like "I've heard you make beautiful albums.  I'm just no good at it, would you be willing to help me put one together?"  You two may indeed not have much in common, but if you're willing to share her interests in order to get to know her, she may be more willing to share your interest...ie, your grandchildren.  :)   

I really do believe that your situation hasn't reached the point of no return, it can still be mended.  But it sounds like she's feeling shafted somehow, and I wouldn't expect her to make that step to reach out to you.  You may have to put a little thought and work into it.  Some relationships just require some work!  Exhausting, possibly, but so worth it. 

But at the end of the day, you can only try so hard.  I realize I've thrown a lot out there, but this isn't all about DIL, this is about you too.  We all have to accept responsibility for our individual parts in our situations.  If at the end of the day you can look in the mirror and feel good about the efforts you've put forth, then no one can expect more than that from you.  Hey, at least you are willing to try and talk to your DIL, mine really won't have anything to do with me, never did.  But when I got pregnant with our first child, her claws and fangs came out in anticipation of the pending birth.....like a bloodthirsty warewolf, and she starting crying "grandparents rights! Grandparents rights!" before there was even a child to visit.  Who wouldn't withdraw from that???  I'm sure that's not the way she meant to come accross, but that's definitely the way it felt to me and she never attempted to correct it.

Sending lots of love your way.  I hope it works out, you sound like a wonderful person,  maybe you could come be my MIL.  :)

   
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: justanoldgrandma on August 29, 2011, 07:30:45 AM
Belle has some good points there about making dil feel important in her own right, not just someone to have ds return phone calls and to arrange for you to see gd.  She doesn't sound like a cooperative dil by any means and certainly doesn't make efforts to make your family closer; so some of Belle's ideas could work to boost her feeling of being worthy and loved; perhaps she suffers from some self-esteem problems and feels close only to her own family; you and dh may be seen as people taking ds's home time away since he travels so much.  In fact, her actions seem jealous and selfish since you don't get any feedback from her as to her neglect of you.

You and your dh have done so much to help the family and it's not fair that they haven't returned calls and allowed more visits from gd.  But as Begonia said, your ds and you both spoke and listened and he will be the messenger to tell his wife she is NOT hated at all by you and dh.  I would continue not to criticize dil; the grievances you have toward her not allowing the gd to visit and such have been said; you could keep it in no longer and it's good to have it out.

I would try to feel that your grievances have been said and move on from there.  It's in ds's court now to relay the messages.  It sounds like he doesn't feel that you "attacked" his wife at all and that's very important. 

With his work and travel you may not get a lot of feedback from him for a while..... if you can wait, he may get back to you w some solutions that you asked for. 

It is important not to criticize dil in any way bc it's all been said, well, all that you could say.  Just trust ds's love for you and dh; that he will convey to his wife your concerns and try to include you more in their lives.

I do think you've done all you can for now bc the big meeting is over and after some time I feel you will hear from him on all this..... like time w them..... and a card to dil as someone said, small things to know she's valued may speed things along.

You did well!  Now try to relax bc other than small gestures to dil, the ball is in ds's court!
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 29, 2011, 07:45:11 AM
Begonia, I like your card idea, I'll have to think about what to say.

Pooh, there has never been an incident between DIL & DH.

Belle, I understand what you've written and appreciate your comments.  I didn't mention it but I have complimented DIL on a lot of other things.  Her decorating skills, choices of colours, her excellent food that she serves whenever we eat. When we were decorating our other home, I showed her our paint colours and asked her opinion about what she thought.  After her operation we sent her flowers when she returned home (no thank you for that).  I'd love to do something with her, but I don't know what she likes to do at all.  That stems from her lack of conversation with us.  I know she likes to do cruises, but when we ask about the cruises they've taken, even ask her directly, it's DS to answers. We have to beg to see pictures.  Yes, I know it's not just about DIL, but really, I'm trying to bend over backwards here to do anything she wants to improve this and she doesn't even want to sit down and discuss it at all.  DS told us yesterday that she feels she's tried.  Tried? How, by ignoring us? Not even showing a minute concern for how we are? 

Hopefully DS will get our message across to DIL that we truely want to improve this and want to move forward.  We'll see.

Justanoldgrandma, I was just finishing this post when your message came. in.
I'm glad you mentioned the self-esteem problems.  That has been suggested to me as well by a friend who deals with women that have that problem.  I'm not saying DIL has these problems, but it's a thought. 
Yes, I will not critize DIL, we've had our say and want to move ahead.  The card suggestion is excellent.  Maybe I can find one with already printed message that is appropriate.  I'm afraid if I write something myself I'll blow it.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pen on August 29, 2011, 07:59:53 AM
I'm sorry, but I'm looking at this way differently due to my situation.

DIL loses nothing by not being part of a resolution. She keeps her man, her kids, her FOO. DS is then put in a position of losing his FOO or losing DIL & the children, but at least he gets a choice. The ILs lose DS, DIL & the GC and don't get a say in the matter, just because they had the audacity to give birth to a son. They have the most to lose, so they are the ones dancing around trying to please a DIL who really can't (or won't) articulate what they've done wrong and what they need to fix. My take is that she knows she's got the power and she's playing games with it to see who will dance to her tune. If they dance, win! If they don't, double win!! She's rid of them!

For us it took DS speaking up & demanding time with his FOO to turn things around. It's not close to equal, but it is much better. I still do a bit of a dance, but at least DIL is dancing, too. Perhaps one day we'll be completely relaxed and comfortable around each other.

Belle, your suggestions for broaching a relationship with a DIL are great, and I hope they work for you, Chrisky, if you ever decide to try them. (My DIL wouldn't want to spend any more time with me than she has to, so they wouldn't work in my situation. When she's forced to be here she's watching movies on her phone with ear buds in...we're pretty boring to her, I guess.)

Chrisky, from my POV you've been a thoughtful, kind MIL. I hope your DS can communicate your thoughts well and that your DIL is open to them. Best wishes to you all.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 29, 2011, 08:01:08 AM
I think you did a great job with the meeting and it truly is in their hands now.  I love all the suggestions and I think you have opened the door for them to step through.  I hope they take that step.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Belle on August 29, 2011, 08:01:31 AM
Idunno then, I'm stymied here.  Maybe she's happy with an "arm's length relationship," some folks just are.  It doesn't help those who want to be close to them, but no one can change that if that's just how they are.  She may just be one of those people.  I would just back-off altogether.  Send a card when its appropriate to remember a birthday or whatever, but don't push a personal relationship.  She may not want that like you do.  I'm just thinking if you back off and give her space, she wouldn't have a reason to make up reasons to push you away, ya know?  Your one-on-one time with your grandchildren may not ever reach the level you want it to, but do appreciate and value the relationship you DO have with them because so many grandparents have lost that priviledge. 

You can find other ways to be there for your grandchildren besides just babysitting them.  Maybe ask DH and DIL if it would be ok for you for come to their dance recitals, soccer games, school programs and events, etc.  I'm sure you're already taking advantage of those opportunities.  :)  It means a lot to kids when their families come to those sorts of things, not just their parents. 



 

Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Begonia on August 29, 2011, 08:30:16 AM
Chrisky:  Great awareness!!  There is so much to learn from each other!  I really relate to your posts about this. 

I agree that one of those cards that just have a message without you writing a bunch of things is best.  The message you want to give is that DS, DH and you did not gang up on her when you had your meeting.  Just my opinion. 

And since we can never know what goes on in our DS and DD relationships, it might be there are reasons that you have never ever thought of that she is distant.  In my own case with DIL, I can see that with her father in prison and her mother still hanging in there with him after years of abuse, prison, arrests for DUI, etc. that DIL is just plain embarrassed that I will ask something in the way of conversation...."How's your mom doing?"  and then she feels as if she has to say something.  I get bits and pieces from my DS but never, ever ask anything anymore---I have heard enough of the drama already anyway. 

And I never get a thank you either, as I have mentioned on other threads.  But I believe in my heart it is not mean-spirited, although I get hurt about it, I can see just how much is on their plates.  Just the other day my daughter said, "Did ___say thanks for the gift card? I told her to."  Well, GD is a teenager...I really don't expect it.  I made sure my DD knew I was not holding DD responsible....we joked about it. 

And you say your DS is gone quite a bit. I can't remember all you have said about that, but that is a struggle for any wife and it does cause lots of problems between couples that are private.  My son travels for work and he is in exotic places while my DIL keeps all the schedules for the kids plus worrying about her dysfunctional family...and she is not well herself.  And if I would go there and take care of the kids, what might her mother say to her?  It is very complicated to be a MIL, DIL or a couple.  Lots of pressures.   

I have certainly found that less is best...since I have lowered my expectations of DD DS, etc.  Things have been smoother.  At first it tore my heart out that I was not invited to events but then I realized it was a favor because of DIL's goofy family.  And I told both DS and DD years ago that I didn't want to hear about their personal problems or finances.  That caused a two year rift but we got through that too. 

Blessings to you for your BIG heart and your willingness to look at so many angles.  Choose what you want and leave the rest is something I saw on a post when I first posted here.  That has served me well. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 29, 2011, 08:48:42 AM
I guess I'm pretty confused by the responses here.  By all accounts the DIL *has* stayed in touch and visited, the issue seems to me that it is not enough to Chrisky's liking.  Not that DIL hasn't, won't or whatnot. 

My perspective is that the visits and amounts that Chrisky has listed is a very normal and reasonable amount.  Add into it that the DIL from all accounts has been suffering from a major illness and I'm not sure how this is all adding up to the OP being maligned or cut out.  It sounds like DIL is a woman with a very full plate and doing the best she can and the results are obvious, she has good kids! 

IMO, this is the last thing the DIL needs to hear.  I think everyone has a natural right to their privacy and medical information, I think everyone has the right to decide what kind of relationship they would like to have with others. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Sassy on August 29, 2011, 08:53:16 AM
QuoteIdunno then, I'm stymied here.  Maybe she's happy with an "arm's length relationship," some folks just are.  It doesn't help those who want to be close to them, but no one can change that if that's just how they are.  She may just be one of those people.  I would just back-off altogether.  Send a card when its appropriate to remember a birthday or whatever, but don't push a personal relationship.  She may not want that like you do.  I'm just thinking if you back off and give her space, she wouldn't have a reason to make up reasons to push you away, ya know?

Belle, that is the impression I am getting, too.

QuoteWe told him that our biggest frustration was not seeing or even getting return phone calls from DIL & especially the GDs.

Chrisky, maybe this is a situation where seeing the glass as half full can help you enjoy what simply is.  It's wonderful that you do get to see the GCs.  29 times in 44 months, about every 6 weeks, doesn't sound bad, but I am not a grandmother.  Going away on a week long vacation with them sounds amazing.   I see there is a lot of opportunity for you the way things are.  I know it's not as much as you'd like, but (as my own grandmother used to say) it's nothing to sneeze at either.

Whether or not DIL returns your calls is not up to your son, as you know. Which I understand is why you hoped DIL'd be a part of this meeting.  But if she happens to be satisfied with and accepts how things are presently, then she wouldn't feel compelled to attend.  If DIL doesn't want to talk on the phone, my personal feeling is it's probably best she doesn't.   I myself don't want people to call me socially out of a sense of obligation, but rather out of desire.  If the desire to talk to me is not there, intrinsically, that's going to be reflected in the quality of the conversation.   My thought is while it might make you feel good momentarily to have her phone you, in the long run that could make more trouble.

It is entirely up to DS if he returns your calls faster than 3 or 4 days.  If you thinks she's witholding messages from him, perhaps he has a cell to text to, or work number, or email you can also try him on.  Or if he'd be willing to keep you abreast of his travel schedule each week, so you know when to expect a returned call.  Is that checking-in in advance the kind of relationship a man wants with his parents, I'm not sure.  DS may also become willing to assist his children in phoning you.  Since the phone calls are your biggest frustration, I hope what DS took away from the conversation is what he can do to help alleviate your frustration.

If the situation doesn't change, I hope that you can enjoy the many blessings you do have.  No relationship is perfect, and I hope you can find comfort in the positives in this one.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: herbalescapes on August 29, 2011, 10:51:14 AM
I recommend reading some of Deborah Tannen.  She wrote a book about 25 years ago about communication styles and has since written many more on different subsets of communication differences.  A lot of misunderstandings arise because we have different styles of conversation, but because we are unaware of style differences, we make moral judgements.  Consider someone who has an indirect questioning style.  They would never dream of asking about someone directly; instead, they make statements about themselves and expect the other person to makes similar statements about themselves.  If I were an indirect questioner I would say something like, "My kids all had the flu last week."  I expect you to say, "Two of mine did, but the youngest didn't."  But if you are a direct questioner, you feel like I'm full of myself because I talk about my kids but didn't bother to ask about yours.  When our conversation styles are similar, it goes smoothly.  When our styles differ, problems arise.  And what starts as a style difference can lead to huge family rifts.

You say DS says DIL feels she has tried with you and DH.  Maybe in her communication style and lifestyle she has tried with you, but in you can't recognize it because you have a totally different frame of interaction.  So you feel she never tries and she feels you ignore her attempts then complain about her. 

How often should GPs see the GC?  Geography and work schedules certainly play a role, but there's no one answer.  Think of it this way.   Let's say a couple has sex once a week.  One partner might feel they have sex all the time; the other may feel like they never have sex.  Assuming they are only having sex with each other, who is right?  They both are.  There's no correct answer to how often a couple should have sex. One couple may be happy with once a month, one couple may be happy with once a day.  It's only a problem when one partner wants only once a month while the other partner wants once a day.  It's the same with visiting family.  For some, once a week is not enough.  For others, once a year is too claustrophobic.  It's only a problem when relatives have different expectations. 

I would recommend not comparing your situation with the other GPs.  There are a host of reasons why the maternal and paternal sides of the family get different treatment.  Gone are the days when the wife is the family social secretary so you can blame DIL if your side of the family feels second rate.  However busy DS is, you are his relatives and therefore his responsibility.  If a DIL wants to pick up her husband's slack, that's great.  But if she doesn't want to for whatever reason, you shouldn't feel she is slighting you.  I know this gives the maternal relatives a huge edge since women are still better adept and willing to maintain family ties.  Maybe think of it as payback that you never had to worry about DS coming home from school pregnant.  Sure, he might have impregnated someone, but that's not the same. 

It sounds like you have some good stuff going on in the family.  Wasn't it Oprah that pushed the gratitude journal?  I did that for awhile and it really made me appreciate what I had more.  I wasn't having family issues at the time, but we had just moved to a new area, I didn't know anyone and I had two little ones.  I felt really isolated.  The journal helped me appreciate what I had. 

There are plenty of ways to stay in touch with distant GC.  It may be only an hour or two away, but think of it like a three day's journey and try other means of staying in touch.  If calls aren't returned, don't give up.  Soon the GDs will be old enough to listen to messages on their own.  They may not return your calls either, but they'll know you stayed in touch.  Check out the internet for different ideas. 

Good Luck.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Belle on August 29, 2011, 11:06:50 AM
Herbalescapes - that post was BRILLIANT.  It puts so much into perspective about what we expect from our communications with others (or lack thereof).  I MUST go read that book.  I'm intrigued!  :)
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Ruth on August 29, 2011, 12:21:44 PM
I found this topic and all the replies very interesting and important.  It may be a great deal of what this forum's about - acceptance.   This situation seems to me one that may just have to be accepted, the suggestions were great and I especially liked the one about attending recitals, game, graduations etc as a means of staying in touch with g/c, I initially liked the one about scrapbooking or finding a common hobby, but after reading more I don't think this will work, because frankly, it seems to me that the DIL just isn't interested, she doesn't find MIL relevant, or she doesn't especially like the MIL's style.  It may not be anything that can be remedied at this time, but most of all I would not try and 'force the matter to its conclusion.'  Many of us here have had to come to terms with not being in the life at all of one of our children.  It is very hard.  We cannot make another person want us in their life.  I think MIL's have a harder time grandparenting a son's children than a daughter's.  The mother of the children is largely in charge.  You didn't cause this problem, Christy, and I hope you can come to terms for the time being with it as it is.  You know life however has a way of changing things, and the road will turn somewhere up ahead and you may be viewed differently by your DIL.   This might be one of those times when the thing to do is the thing that's prized in my DH's family - act as if nothing had ever happened.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Sassy on August 29, 2011, 12:37:03 PM
Herbalescapes, how very interesting is the information you shared about "direct" and "indirect" questioning styles!

I have been thinking about this, and about Chrisky's situation.  How DS has expressed that he feels his wife is being disrespected. How her DS said his wife feels she's tried, and Chrisky's musing (to us, I assume, not said aloud to her DS) Tried how? By ignoring us?  And it struck me: well, perhaps, yes. 

If DIL was a personal acquaintance of mine and did not return my calls, I would eventually realize she did not wish to talk on the phone to me.   There is, to me, a very clear although "indirect" message sent by several unreturned phone calls.   (And more so by years of them.)  And that message is simply that the recipient of those calls chooses to decline the opportunity to speak on the phone.  Perhaps the multiple phone messages, or that DIL calling them is being  presented again and again to DS or DIL, that DIL is expected to place phone calls to them, despite her sending the clear message that she does not wish to, is part of what makes DS and DIL feel that she is being disrespected.  I understand Chrisky's and her DH's phone messages are being ignored.  Yet it seems DIL's phone messages are being ignored, as well.  Just a thought. 

If her DIL's messages that she does not want to place phone calls is something that Chrisky and her DH can accept, and DIL starts to feel her limits are being respected in that regard, I wonder if that would allow room for eventual improvement in other aspects of the relationship.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 29, 2011, 04:39:56 PM
Quote from: Pen on August 29, 2011, 07:59:53 AM
I'm sorry, but I'm looking at this way differently due to my situation.

DIL loses nothing by not being part of a resolution. She keeps her man, her kids, her FOO. DS is then put in a position of losing his FOO or losing DIL & the children, but at least he gets a choice. The ILs lose DS, DIL & the GC and don't get a say in the matter, just because they had the audacity to give birth to a son. They have the most to lose, so they are the ones dancing around trying to please a DIL who really can't (or won't) articulate what they've done wrong and what they need to fix. My take is that she knows she's got the power and she's playing games with it to see who will dance to her tune. If they dance, win! If they don't, double win!! She's rid of them.

You may be right with that statement.  If believe if she was really interested in improving our relationship she would have been there.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 29, 2011, 04:44:36 PM
Quote from: Belle on August 29, 2011, 11:06:50 AM
Herbalescapes - that post was BRILLIANT.  It puts so much into perspective about what we expect from our communications with others (or lack thereof).  I MUST go read that book.  I'm intrigued!  :)

I need to read that book as well, I'm positive that we communicate very differently which is part of this problem.  But after all we are all adults, why is it that DH & I can get past DIL's different communication skills and she can't?
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 29, 2011, 05:03:00 PM
Quote from: Sassy on August 29, 2011, 12:37:03 PM
Herbalescapes, how very interesting is the information you shared about "direct" and "indirect" questioning styles!

I have been thinking about this, and about Chrisky's situation.  How DS has expressed that he feels his wife is being disrespected. How her DS said his wife feels she's tried, and Chrisky's musing (to us, I assume, not said aloud to her DS) Tried how? By ignoring us?  And it struck me: well, perhaps, yes. 

Well yes, she is ignoring us in any way she can.  We get mixed messages from her & DS goes along with these messages.  He can be naive at times.  They say,"DS is busy, likes to relax at home on the weekends with family, so call anytime during the week, and come over to see the girls"  Well, we do call, leave a message, and wait, and lo & behold who calls back but DS, saying come over next weekend, I'll be home.   ???
Then we're critized for not visiting during the week.  Well, I just plain give up.

The thing is Sassy, she is not happy with the situation, and according to DS is the one that keeps telling DS to have a talk with us and sort things out. I believe she hopes we'll say something terrible, and she'll be able to say "see, I told you they don't like me", and/or she wants us to just completely agree with everything she says, never express an opinion about anything.
It just keeps going round and round, like a dog chasing it's tail and never catching it.  (sorry, terrible example). 

I appreciate all your thoughts.  There have been things mentioned that I had not really considered.   
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Doe on August 29, 2011, 05:20:43 PM
I appreciate the whole message but this part gave me pause:

Quote from: herbalescapes on August 29, 2011, 10:51:14 AM
I would recommend not comparing your situation with the other GPs.

This looks good on paper but I don't see how it can play out in real life unless the person just pretends not to know certain things.  I'm not sure what is the benefit in ignoring a truth.

In my case, noting the difference in how DIL is with her family vs our side provides lots of information to help me sort out how to approach my relationship with her. 


Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 29, 2011, 06:12:46 PM
Quote from: herbalescapes on August 29, 2011, 10:51:14 AM
However busy DS is, you are his relatives and therefore his responsibility.

Maybe think of it as payback that you never had to worry about DS coming home from school pregnant.  Sure, he might have impregnated someone, but that's not the same. 


I'm glad I don't feel this way about my DH and his family, nor he with mine.  They are both our responsibility. 

#2 I'm just going to say you are right, it isn't the same.   It is totally different with an entirely different set of worries, but I assure you, it is just as hard.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Sassy on August 30, 2011, 05:54:03 AM
I think sometimes herbalescapes tempers parts of her posts with a bit of levity, or allegory, and all the words are not always meant literally.

This is a link to a NY Times article from the spring called "Don't Call Me, I Won't Call You" http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/20/fashion/20Cultural.html?pagewanted=all

"I remember when I was growing up, the rule was, 'Don't call anyone after 10 p.m.,' " Mr. Adler said. "Now the rule is, 'Don't call anyone. Ever.' "
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 30, 2011, 06:30:13 AM
Sassy, I must be getting old.  I still like to phone my friends, to hear their voices.  When having a phone conversation I can hear by their tone of voice, their joy or disappointment with whatever we are talking about.  I'm of the opinion that with all this texting many people can't even write a proper sentence.  This generation does not have any social skills.  It's much easier to text someone, than talk face to face or over the phone. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Ruth on August 30, 2011, 06:41:19 AM
That was a good article Sassy!   I think protocol is changing (changed) nowadays and frankly I'm pretty glad because I have never enjoyed the telephone.  There's entirely too much 'communication' going on in this society in my opinion, and I can't see much good that's come of it.  I've continued to think about your situation Chrisky, and I still can't figure this out.  DIL hasn't been nasty to you as far as i can tell.  If DIL says come by during the week and see the girls, I for one would have galloped over there and maybe phoned a few blocks away, left a message if needed that 'I was dropping by to see the girls with a little treat for them, look forward to seeing you for a few moments Irene, thanks for being so kind to extend the invitation', or something to that effect.  I think maybe you are a very methodical person and perhaps she isn't.  Maybe you're making this harder than it really is.  Please don't feel I'm being insulted, I am also very methodical and like all loose ends tied up, but I know many people don't live that way.  Has she a healthy relationship with FOO, divorce issues etc?
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 30, 2011, 07:11:31 AM
Quote from: Ruth on August 30, 2011, 06:41:19 AM
I've continued to think about your situation Chrisky, and I still can't figure this out.  DIL hasn't been nasty to you as far as i can tell.  If DIL says come by during the week and see the girls, I for one would have galloped over there and maybe phoned a few blocks away, left a message if needed that 'I was dropping by to see the girls with a little treat for them, look forward to seeing you for a few moments Irene, thanks for being so kind to extend the invitation', or something to that effect.  I think maybe you are a very methodical person and perhaps she isn't.  Maybe you're making this harder than it really is.  Please don't feel I'm being insulted, I am also very methodical and like all loose ends tied up, but I know many people don't live that way.  Has she a healthy relationship with FOO, divorce issues etc?
Her FOO relationship is good.
Ruth you're right, she hasn't been nasty to us at all.  You know, we actually did think of just dropping in as you suggested, but we felt  so uncomfortable doing that because her invitation was preceded with the mention of a phone call first.  But, in retrospect maybe we just should have done it to see what happens.  I don't know if we'd feel comfortable doing that now, or that DIL would even allow it, but if that sort of invitation ever comes up again, we'll just jump on it. 
I am very methodical, but DS isn't, DIL is.  So I believe she expects him to invite us and when he doesn't, or forgets ::), she doesn't prod him into action. 
Ruth, it makes my head spin trying to figure them out.  But this a.m. DH e-mailed DS about something not related to this and he answered him back quite quickly.  So.....
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Begonia on August 30, 2011, 08:11:33 AM
But this a.m. DH e-mailed DS about something not related to this and he answered him back quite quickly.  So.....


Chrisky:  This is an important observation.  In my experience my DS and DD do not want to always be talking or interacting about some kind of drama (that can't be solved anyway) or why or why not, even though I may have been barely sleeping because of it. It does not always have to be all sorted out if we can just move forward.  A good guy friend told me one time, when I was going on and on about some slight, to "Drop the hatchet."  That has stuck with me a lot of years.  Your DH and DS are leading the way and this gives good reason to just let the past drop and move on to subjects that do not need explaining or discussion or "talks."   But, I think women can learn important lessons from men, who can fight like crazy shouting and going on and on about some football team, then go golfing as if nothing had ever happened. 

So glad your DH and DS are talking. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Begonia on August 30, 2011, 08:18:02 AM
Just to add an afterthought to my post:  Most support groups are made up of women.  We solve our problems by getting them out there and getting feedback. Generally, men make a decision and move ahead without having a dozen meetings about the color of the living room or buying a new shirt. Trying to find that balance between gender perceptions is always an interesting situation, especially in family dynamics.   :o
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Belle on August 30, 2011, 08:18:37 AM
I totally get what you're saying Begonia, it makes sense.  BUT, how many of our DH's would rather "sweep issues under the rug" and pretend they never happened.  DH's whole family is this way, and over the generations most of them have reduced down to a "carte blanche" way of behavior that they believe should always just be "overlooked" with no consequences.  I don't know about you, but for me this doesn't resolve anything and it gives me no reason to move forward.  In DH's family, all this way of thinking has accomplished is creating behavioral monsters....DH included. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Begonia on August 30, 2011, 08:24:58 AM
Great point, Belle.  It gets dicey when we assign importance to issues. "Geez, let it go," is some good advice that I have been given and it is lifetime work to try live that!!  I always ask myself, "In the big scheme of things, how big is this?"  Sometimes it's big and sometimes it's just not worth it to stir up the hornets.  ::)
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 30, 2011, 08:39:57 AM
Quote from: Begonia on August 30, 2011, 08:11:33 AM
But this a.m. DH e-mailed DS about something not related to this and he answered him back quite quickly.  So.....


Chrisky:  This is an important observation.  In my experience my DS and DD do not want to always be talking or interacting about some kind of drama (that can't be solved anyway) or why or why not, even though I may have been barely sleeping because of it. It does not always have to be all sorted out if we can just move forward.  A good guy friend told me one time, when I was going on and on about some slight, to "Drop the hatchet."  That has stuck with me a lot of years.  Your DH and DS are leading the way and this gives good reason to just let the past drop and move on to subjects that do not need explaining or discussion or "talks."   But, I think women can learn important lessons from men, who can fight like crazy shouting and going on and on about some football team, then go golfing as if nothing had ever happened. 

So glad your DH and DS are talking.

This is a great point.  Some things will not be solved and sometimes it is an issue that we have to work out for ourselves.  It's not necessarily anyone elses problem.  I can see where Belle is going but I
think that is a separate issue when two parties are having problems.  This seems like a one party issue.

And that's what I see going on here, Chrisky.  I'm thinking you're DS/DIL weren't unaware of your feelings before that talk, they know.  Perhaps it's a case of "not my problem."  I don't think they see
what you're seeing as a problem for them.  It's yours. 

It occurred to me last night the disrespect DIL was seeing is perhaps in not having her feelings acknowledged.  She (or rather DS) has mentioned incidents with facial expressions, tones of voice etc. 
I think it may be important for you to examine this area, Chrisky.   Human communication is mostly done through body language and I don't think it is unusual at all for anyone to pick up our thoughts
and feelings.  It is very easy for most people to tell when they are not liked or respected or someone is upset with them. 

In being upset with DIL over an issue she doesn't see as an issue, it can come across as disrespectful to her.  That's where I think the letting it go and dropping the hatchet comes in.  I can imagine long
term tension is not something most people want to deal with. 

Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pen on August 30, 2011, 09:04:34 AM
Body language and facial expressions can be misinterpreted, IMO. It depends on how we learned to read them while growing up. DIL expects me to react the same way her DM reacts to certain things. She'll sometimes ask during a minor annoyance over something inconsequential, "Are you mad? Are you upset?" Her DM is pretty moody & demanding although very loving to her family.

My DIL would be better able to read me if she spent more time around me. She doesn't know what to do with our more relaxed personalities. I'm thinking that to her, a hands-off, non-overbearing style = lack of love. A mild display of annoyance = major rage.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 30, 2011, 09:10:40 AM
That's true, Pen.  DH and I experience a similar thing.  It doesn't always register with him (he says b/c he is used to it) when his Mom rolls her eyes, sighing, pouting and pinched faces.

However, I do and no, I didn't grow up with my mother doing that.  Or really, any grown woman I know doing that.  It reminds me of junior high lol. 

In Chrisky's situation she asked her DH for one thing to do to make it better, I think he already gave her a suggestion.  IMO, it would be worth examining. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Rejected on August 30, 2011, 09:36:20 AM
Usually I am better with words. When I tried sugar coating this post I ended up confusing myself so it is a bit candid. Sorry if I offend. I'm just trying to help identify possible problems and give other perspectives.

Chrisky, it seems as though you aren't letting your DS fly away. To call multiple times and leaving messages each time all regarding the same thing is a little much. I know with my own MIL she'll send an email or leave a message and our schedules are so crazy that we take a few days to figure out a plan and then get back to her. Since your DS's work schedule has him leaving town often for days at a time, I'm sure it may take them some time to make plans and get back to you. And in regards to your DS's work schedule, unless you have plans with your DS, it is a little much to want to know his work schedule. And I don't know why this stuck out to me but why do you feel the need to give your DS a heads up to check his mailbox. Do you call often for things like this? To have him check his mailbox?

I'm sure if your DIL has called you uncaring and unloving, whether it's true or not, then she is uncomfortable communicating with you. If you feel that someone is uncaring and unloving are you going to want to answer their phone calls, call them back right away, make sure that they are in the loop of everything going on in your life and babysit your kids? 

I'm uncomfortable communicating with my MIL so in my marriage my DH is responsible for communicating with his FOO. How often/when he chooses to talk to them or see them is up to him. I do the communicating with my FOO which is a heck of a lot more often then my DH is with his FOO. If DH wants more time with his FOO it's up to him to plan it and he doesn't, but he's an adult and it shouldn't have to fall on my shoulders to keep his relationship with his FOO active. I refuse to nag my DH to call his mother if she has called and left a message. He can listen to his voicemail or the answering machine just like me, and he can pick up the phone and dial. I do, however, remind him of Birthdays and things of that nature but it's up to him to write in the card and send it off.

It sounds as though your DIL is just as confused as you are. If she says she wants things resolved then I'm sure a part of her really wants to have a good relationship with you. But then there are the little comments that slip (ie "'she'll actually answer us?'") that turns her away and she gets upset for a little while so she ignores you which confuses you and upsets you...and so on and so on.

After having many talks with my MIL, I've discovered that she is more open, up-front, and honest when she is talking to my DH about issues and I'm not there. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Belle on August 30, 2011, 09:56:49 AM
Rejected - your post made total sense to me, and I didn't feel as though it was too candid.  But you did bring something to light:  That it's DH's responsibility to maintain his own relationship with his FOO.  I'm sure others won't agree with that idea, but I'm in favor of that concept.  I simply do not have time to be the family secretary, but often times, such as in the situation of this post, the DH hasn't taken that responsibility.  It makes it easy to point a finger.  Maybe that's why DIL feels like she's been disrespected or shafted somehow, maybe she's catching on to the idea that DH's parents are making communication with them her responsibility, and holding her responsible when it doesn't happen.  If that kind of pressure were put on me, I would surely withdraw.  That's just my opinion. 

   

Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 30, 2011, 11:34:14 AM
Ok, reading thru this thread again I just realized that I guess I am very old fashioned! Lol.  I just can't get on board with the "his" and "her" responsibility thing.  I see my marriage as a partnership.  I am the better cook, so I do it more often and he will wash the dishes more because I do.  He is better at picking movies so he does it more often.  We both have areas that we are contributing more to because we do better than the other one at it.  My DH is very intelligent and caring, but let's face it, most men don't remember events, birthdays, etc.  Not because he doesn't care, but simply because his brain doesn't function on that level, so I am naturally the social planner for both sides of the family.  Heck, I remind him when it's his buddies birthday or that he told a friend he would help him move a gunsafe today.  I don't feel slighted because he appreciates that I do it and when his Mother thanks him for remembering she had a doctor's appointment, I see the smile on his face.  Totally worth it.  I'm not saying that a woman (let's forget DIL/MIL title) has to do everything, just that I know for every thing I am doing more of, he is doing more of in another area.

Now I totally agree with you guys if you have a DH that is trying to make you responsible for his FOO and he does think it's your responsibility.  I would put it back on him in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Jillinthesky on August 30, 2011, 11:56:59 AM
Rejected, I picked up on that too.  If you know someone has a hectic work schedule that takes them out of town frequently as well as young children, I am not sure the point of multiple messages.  Now, if there is an emergency or something really time pressing, sure.  But in general, it doesn't sound like their family and time is being respected and instead, things are on Chrisky's schedule which may not mesh.  Expectations again. 
That being said, Chrisky, you seem pretty reasonable and caring to me.  Maybe as early posters suggested, you just have different styles than your DIL and even your DS.  There even may be issues outside of you that you are unaware of.  I know when I am busy with work and family, and then some issue pops up, be it health or finances or anything, I tend to withdrawal from outside and handle what ever business needs to be handled.  When people push for contact and I can't give it, and then the push some more, I can become resentful.  I don't think you are trying to be pushy or intrude, I just wonder if your general style might come across that way, especially if your DIL is an introvert. 
I know that I found this statement "To tell you the truth if it wasn't for the GDs, we'd totally ignore DS & DIL" to be particularly telling.  I would bet you money that your DIL can pick up on that.  We as humans are never as good as we think we are at hiding our true feelings.  You also said that "This generation does not have any social skills" which I found to be a tad harsh and overgeneralizing.  I could be reading to much into things but to me, you do seem to have a strong personality with set opinions.  Of course this is just from reading a few posts but maybe you have said things in a manner to or around DIL that she interpreted in an unfavorable manner, when they may have not been meant that way and as a result, she just withdrew. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Belle on August 30, 2011, 12:04:43 PM
I have to agree to disagree with you Pooh, at least for my household.  I do good to keep my own schedule, I couldn't imagine keeping anyone else's.  I would venture to say I'm not alone in that boat.  Remembering events, birthdays etc. is one thing, but upholding communication with FOO's is somehow different to me.  DH can get a calendar if he needs to remember events or birthdays.  I didn't instantly "click" with my MIL, and DH didn't instantly "click" with my FOO either.  The thought of being the one responsible for upholding the lines of communication with his FOO, especially when I felt most of them were quite stand-off-ish and waiting for an excuse to jump me for something....too much pressure for me

Whether we want to admit ot or not, ANY outsider that comes into our families through marriage isn't instantly given the "key to the city" so to speak.  Outsiders (SILs/DILs) are met with only a minimal level of trust that can be built or depleted, and we are held under a microscope to determine whether we are "good/not good enough" for our spouses.  Outsiders aren't trusted 100% in the beginning (some of us never are), and one teenie-tiny incident (didn't return a call, email, didn't RSVP for an event, forgot to send a thank-you note for a family gift, etc.) can mark us FOREVER.  Too heavy of a burden for me to carry, IMO.  I'd rather not deal with DH's FOO in that regard...those things are HIS responsibility.  He deals with his, and I will deal with mine.  If his FOO communicates with me directly, via phone or email, text, etc. (and they don't, they never did, except for "hate mail"), I will respond appropriately...but general calls to the house, a message left on the machine from MIL?  HIS job to deal with. 

That might be different if our situation were different.  I think my MIL messed up the way a lot of MILs do...they expect an "instant" relationship by default.  It doesn't work that way.  The MIL/DIL relationship has to be created and nourished just like any other...I'm sure some would argue it takes even more effort than any other relationship. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 30, 2011, 12:22:53 PM
I get you.  It's not a diagreement, just differences of opinion :)  I guess I have always been very open to different personalities.  My SIL and I, oh...a whole different animal.  She's high maintainance, very girly-girl, kind of flaky...total opposite of me.  We accept each other and get along fabulously because we know we are different and are ok with that.  Now I will say that your outsider theory intrigues me.  It intrigues me that that you said SILs/DILs.   I inserted MILs into that same sentence and it fits the bill for my situation with my DIL too. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 30, 2011, 12:28:43 PM
Ahh Pooh, you just hit something on the nail.  It seems like in these situations that the DH is better at communicating with his FOO and that is why his FOO has been assigned the responsibility.

I can say the exact same thing until I'm blue in the face and my MIL will insist and still push to get her way.  DH?  He only has to say it a couple times lol and while she may not like it, she listens to him.

It does seem like when there are issues between MIL/DIL that it comes down to really issues between MIL and DS.  Or DIL and DS. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Rejected on August 30, 2011, 12:29:23 PM
Pooh, I'm afraid you've misunderstood me. FOO relationships have nothing to do with who does the laundry or washes the dishes in a marriage/relationship. My DH and I support each other 110% and we work together through everything. We both cook, do dishes, laundry, mow the lawn...etc even though that has nothing to do with this thread.

My DH knows and understands that I don't like his mother (he can barely tolerate her) so we have agreed as a couple that he is the one to do the communicating with her. It has nothing to do with diving out chores, he's protecting me from her.

In my house we have a big dry erase calendar. At the start of each month I write down all the birthdays on both sides, work schedules, events we're attending, even what is for dinner each night. My DH can look at that calendar as often as I can and know as much as I do, and what he chooses to do with that info is up to him.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 30, 2011, 12:33:24 PM
Quote from: Belle on August 30, 2011, 12:04:43 PM
I have to agree to disagree with you Pooh, at least for my household.  I do good to keep my own schedule, I couldn't imagine keeping anyone else's.  I would venture to say I'm not alone in that boat.  Remembering events, birthdays etc. is one thing, but upholding communication with FOO's is somehow different to me.  DH can get a calendar if he needs to remember events or birthdays.  I didn't instantly "click" with my MIL, and DH didn't instantly "click" with my FOO either.  The thought of being the one responsible for upholding the lines of communication with his FOO, especially when I felt most of them were quite stand-off-ish and waiting for an excuse to jump me for something....too much pressure for me

Whether we want to admit ot or not, ANY outsider that comes into our families through marriage isn't instantly given the "key to the city" so to speak.  Outsiders (SILs/DILs) are met with only a minimal level of trust that can be built or depleted, and we are held under a microscope to determine whether we are "good/not good enough" for our spouses.  Outsiders aren't trusted 100% in the beginning (some of us never are), and one teenie-tiny incident (didn't return a call, email, didn't RSVP for an event, forgot to send a thank-you note for a family gift, etc.) can mark us FOREVER.  Too heavy of a burden for me to carry, IMO.  I'd rather not deal with DH's FOO in that regard...those things are HIS responsibility.  He deals with his, and I will deal with mine.  If his FOO communicates with me directly, via phone or email, text, etc. (and they don't, they never did, except for "hate mail"), I will respond appropriately...but general calls to the house, a message left on the machine from MIL?  HIS job to deal with. 

That might be different if our situation were different.  I think my MIL messed up the way a lot of MILs do...they expect an "instant" relationship by default.  It doesn't work that way.  The MIL/DIL relationship has to be created and nourished just like any other...I'm sure some would argue it takes even more effort than any other relationship.

Very good points.  I have read that it takes nearly a decade for MIL/DIL to build family ties with each other, if it even happens.  I know MILs feel like they are walking on eggshells so to speak, it's often
said here.  But I remember meeting all of my SO's parents, the nervousness, the jitters, hoping that they like me.  MILs at least have their family at the start of this relationship while DILs are walking
into unknown territory and hoping their SO is leading them the right way.  It seems too many times the SO started them off on the wrong foot...
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 30, 2011, 12:35:46 PM
Quote from: pam1 on August 30, 2011, 12:28:43 PM
Ahh Pooh, you just hit something on the nail.  It seems like in these situations that the DH is better at communicating with his FOO and that is why his FOO has been assigned the responsibility.

I can say the exact same thing until I'm blue in the face and my MIL will insist and still push to get her way.  DH?  He only has to say it a couple times lol and while she may not like it, she listens to him.

It does seem like when there are issues between MIL/DIL that it comes down to really issues between MIL and DS.  Or DIL and DS.

Amen!
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 30, 2011, 12:41:06 PM
Quote from: Rejected on August 30, 2011, 12:29:23 PM
Pooh, I'm afraid you've misunderstood me. FOO relationships have nothing to do with who does the laundry or washes the dishes in a marriage/relationship. My DH and I support each other 110% and we work together through everything. We both cook, do dishes, laundry, mow the lawn...etc even though that has nothing to do with this thread.

My DH knows and understands that I don't like his mother (he can barely tolerate her) so we have agreed as a couple that he is the one to do the communicating with her. It has nothing to do with diving out chores, he's protecting me from her.

In my house we have a big dry erase calendar. At the start of each month I write down all the birthdays on both sides, work schedules, events we're attending, even what is for dinner each night. My DH can look at that calendar as often as I can and know as much as I do, and what he chooses to do with that info is up to him.

Sorry rejected, I created confusion.  I wasn't answering you directly, I was kind of making an in general post about why I didn't mind being the communicator with my DH's family more than him.  It was more of an "I think it all equals out in the wash" in my household.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Belle on August 30, 2011, 01:08:55 PM
Quote
Sorry rejected, I created confusion.  I wasn't answering you directly, I was kind of making an in general post about why I didn't mind being the communicator with my DH's family more than him.  It was more of an "I think it all equals out in the wash" in my household.

I wish it did in mine.  When one FOO is particularly harder to deal with than the other one, it can create more stress on the person who's FOO it isn't, when it's just easier for the one who's FOO it is, to communicate with them (erm, does that make sense?  I'm lost!).  They grew up with them, they know how to communicate with them, and if that person's FOO is particularly difficult to deal wtih, that person should do it....IMO.   
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 30, 2011, 01:20:13 PM
I had that with my first MIL Belle.  We'll just say she wasn't a nice person and let that go.  It would have been nice and yes it was stressful on me to have to communicate with her because her son was an idiot.  I did do it because of my kids, not because of him.  My sons loved her and she was good to them even if she wasn't to me.  I put up with her nonsense for their sake and I put up with his nonsense because....because....well....because I was stupid! Lol.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 30, 2011, 01:49:54 PM
Quote from: Rejected on August 30, 2011, 09:36:20 AM
Usually I am better with words. When I tried sugar coating this post I ended up confusing myself so it is a bit candid. Sorry if I offend. I'm just trying to help identify possible problems and give other perspectives.

Chrisky, it seems as though you aren't letting your DS fly away. To call multiple times and leaving messages each time all regarding the same thing is a little much. I know with my own MIL she'll send an email or leave a message and our schedules are so crazy that we take a few days to figure out a plan and then get back to her. Since your DS's work schedule has him leaving town often for days at a time, I'm sure it may take them some time to make plans and get back to you.

I'm uncomfortable communicating with my MIL so in my marriage my DH is responsible for communicating with his FOO. How often/when he chooses to talk to them or see them is up to him. I do the communicating with my FOO which is a heck of a lot more often then my DH is with his FOO. If DH wants more time with his FOO it's up to him to plan it and he doesn't, but he's an adult and it shouldn't have to fall on my shoulders to keep his relationship with his FOO active. I refuse to nag my DH to call his mother if she has called and left a message. He can listen to his voicemail or the answering machine just like me, and he can pick up the phone and dial. I do, however, remind him of Birthdays and things of that nature but it's up to him to write in the card and send it off.

It sounds as though your DIL is just as confused as you are. If she says she wants things resolved then I'm sure a part of her really wants to have a good relationship with you. But then there are the little comments that slip (ie "'she'll actually answer us?'") that turns her away and she gets upset for a little while so she ignores you which confuses you and upsets you...and so on and so on.


[/quote/

I'm sorry, maybe I didn't make it clear enough, I don't multiple times in one day or for that matter multiple times in one week. I call once a week, to speak with him or the GDs, and if his job has prevented him from being home for 3 or 4 or 5 days, (he's not out of town by the way), we don't hear anything.  I don't have to speak to DIL if she so chooses, but a phone call from the GDs would be very nice.

Well, she doesn't answer.  This is a two way street, why is it that we have to bend over backwards to comform to what DIL thinks we should do, how we should act, speak.  It's not as if we've ignored them, not offered to help etc.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 30, 2011, 01:54:15 PM
Quote from: pam1 on August 30, 2011, 08:39:57 AM
Quote from: Begonia on August 30, 2011, 08:11:33 AM
But this a.m. DH e-mailed DS about something not related to this and he answered him back quite quickly.  So.....


Chrisky:  This is an important observation.  In my experience my DS and DD do not want to always be talking or interacting about some kind of drama (that can't be solved anyway) or why or why not, even though I may have been barely sleeping because of it. It does not always have to be all sorted out if we can just move forward.  A good guy friend told me one time, when I was going on and on about some slight, to "Drop the hatchet."  That has stuck with me a lot of years.  Your DH and DS are leading the way and this gives good reason to just let the past drop and move on to subjects that do not need explaining or discussion or "talks."   But, I think women can learn important lessons from men, who can fight like crazy shouting and going on and on about some football team, then go golfing as if nothing had ever happened. 

So glad your DH and DS are talking.

This is a great point.  Some things will not be solved and sometimes it is an issue that we have to work out for ourselves.  It's not necessarily anyone elses problem.  I can see where Belle is going but I
think that is a separate issue when two parties are having problems.  This seems like a one party issue.

And that's what I see going on here, Chrisky.  I'm thinking you're DS/DIL weren't unaware of your feelings before that talk, they know.  Perhaps it's a case of "not my problem."  I don't think they see
what you're seeing as a problem for them.  It's yours. 


So not seeing our GDs is our problem, not theirs?  So who corrects this problem? I can't, they have to. That was the point of the talk.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 30, 2011, 02:12:33 PM
Pooh, regarding your reply #51, I am in agreement there.  I also believe a marriage is a 50/50 proposition.  If a DIL's job is such that it takes her away, or her hours are inconvenient for family visits, than its should be the son that takes up the slack and tries to arrange visits or whatever, and vice versa.  My understanding from some of the posters is that because my DS's
job, very frequently, occupies so much of his time, that we are to stop leaving one message a week because we are not DIL's FOO and she is just too busy with GDs and her FOO to make a 5 minute phone call so that we can speak to the GDs?
I'm sorry, I do not agree with that at all.  I was in that same situation when our son was growing up and DH worked long hours or shift work and could never to off on holidays.  I was the one who called my MIL to tell her what was happening to us and how her GS was doing.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Belle on August 30, 2011, 02:39:06 PM
I can tell Chrisky that you are frustrated.  I've seen it on this site many many times "take what you want and leave the rest."  Not everyone's opinions or suggestions are going to work for your situation. 

I can also tell that you are a very strong person, and I sense that you are concrete in your beliefs.  I also fear that your DIL may be picking up on that, and maybe that's why she's withdrawing from you.  I could be wrong.  Your focus seems to be more on the GD's, but I will tell you one thing for absolutely certain as a DIL that it probably won't happen without some work on the relationship with DS and DIL.   

One thing I have learned in life is: the more I push the issue and make demands, the less I will get my way.  I do agree with you that this issue is partly DIL's to help you fix, but if she refuses you can't change that. 

As far as the phone conversations go, your GD's will reach the age where they can call you if they want to, without assistance from DS or DIL.  You may have to be patient and wait for that.  And I think you should be prepared for the event that the level of relationship you have with your GD's doesn't reach the level you want it to be.

I can't tell you how valuable it is that you actually WANT to sit down and work it out with your DIL.  I wish my MIL were willing to discuss our situation and reach a resolution, instead of simply demanding that I adhere to her wishes, take it or leave it.  I keep telling myself that this can't go on forever, something has to give.  At some point, she will grow tired of not seeing her son and GD and she will come around.  I know it will happen for you too Chrisky, just be careful not to push it.  Let it happen in due time. 

My offer still stands, I'll trade you for my MIL!  :)             
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 30, 2011, 03:03:05 PM
Quote from: Chrisky on August 30, 2011, 02:12:33 PM
Pooh, regarding your reply #51, I am in agreement there.  I also believe a marriage is a 50/50 proposition.  If a DIL's job is such that it takes her away, or her hours are inconvenient for family visits, than its should be the son that takes up the slack and tries to arrange visits or whatever, and vice versa.  My understanding from some of the posters is that because my DS's
job, very frequently, occupies so much of his time, that we are to stop leaving one message a week because we are not DIL's FOO and she is just too busy with GDs and her FOO to make a 5 minute phone call so that we can speak to the GDs?
I'm sorry, I do not agree with that at all.  I was in that same situation when our son was growing up and DH worked long hours or shift work and could never to off on holidays.  I was the one who called my MIL to tell her what was happening to us and how her GS was doing.

And you have every right to that opinion but where your right ends is at DS and DIL decision for their own marriage. 

Yes, in my statement above I do think it is your problem to deal with the expectation you have set forth to see your gc more.  As it is your expectation and you do not have DS or DILs agreement or
commitment to see your expectation through. 

We all have disappointments in our lives but it's up to us to manage them, since they are ours.  We can't expect everyone else to just succumb or give in to our every wish. 

I think a lot of MILs here would *love* to see their gc and DS/DIL every 6 weeks.  Add on to the fact that your DIL is ill and she is still making sure the gc see you reasonably enough.

Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Sassy on August 30, 2011, 03:25:25 PM
QuoteSo not seeing our GDs is our problem, not theirs?  So who corrects this problem? I can't, they have to. That was the point of the talk.

Is it possible it may be a matter of preference for quantity?  Visits with the GD are happening, at an average of every 6 weeks (29 times in 44 months).   Suppose DS's daughters seeing their grandparents every 6 weeks or so is the schedule DIL and DS prefer, and if actions speak louder than words, it seems this could well be the case.  If it were, they would not see that particular issue as the problem needing correcting. 

According to what DS has said, this is what DIL sees as the problems:

Quote
It seems that it's a lot of little things that bother DIL, but neither of them say anything until 5 years down the road.  Things like DIL doesn't like how I said something, my tone of voice, or she thought we were favouring one GD over the other.

While for you and DH the point of the talk may have been about the number or frequency of visits with the GDs. For DIL the talk she requested DS to have with you, seems to have been about less quantifiable things.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Sassy on August 30, 2011, 03:38:17 PM
Quote I also believe a marriage is a 50/50 proposition.  If a DIL's job is such that it takes her away, or her hours are inconvenient for family visits, than its should be the son that takes up the slack and tries to arrange visits or whatever, and vice versa.

That is the kind of negotiation that each couple tends to work out between themselves.

QuoteI was in that same situation when our son was growing up and DH worked long hours or shift work and could never to off on holidays.  I was the one who called my MIL to tell her what was happening to us and how her GS was doing.

It sounds like that was an arrangement worked very well for your marriage.  And worked well for the lovely individuals in it :-)   

However, if it's not an arrangement that the individuals in DS and DIL's marriage wish to persue, it's not for them.

Agreements like that aren't "one size fits all."  Much like whether to have an at-home mom, or working mom and daycare. Or whether to buy a big house as an investment, or rent and save money in other ways.   Whether to trade in new shiny safe cars every two years, or dive old hoopties til the wheels fall off.  Or as was mentioned earlier, how many intimate snuggles a week work (A married friend of mine recently confided in me it's been a year since she and her husband snuggled, and says they're both fine with it!). Or even whether one marries someone of the same or opposite gender. 

Variety is the spice of life.  If we all did the same things the same way, life could get boring very quickly.


Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 30, 2011, 03:48:39 PM
Lol Sassy, DH just told me I don't cuddle anymore and I said I do every night!  I allowed him to sleep in our bedroom again (had to force him to get a sleep study done after I got my second
black eye) and since we're in the same bed, that's cuddling in my book. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Sassy on August 30, 2011, 04:18:56 PM
QuoteAhh Pooh, you just hit something on the nail.  It seems like in these situations that the DH is better at communicating with his FOO and that is why his FOO has been assigned the responsibility.

Pam, and Pooh, this is great clarity of insight.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Jillinthesky on August 30, 2011, 05:03:28 PM
Chrisky, your frustration is palpable.  Just looking over the posts, I can see your defenses are high.  You didn't clarify the number of phone calls so we made an assumption, perhaps a wrong one, about the number of calls.  And just because you took care of the phone calls in your family doesn't automatically make it your DILs job.  The more your post, the more your frustration and dare I say anger shows.  I know you are hurt and it's a reaction, but I know, for me, if I picked up on that from someone in my life, I would ignore you too.  You seem to have very set ideas of what your DIL should be doing, what they should be telling you.  Life isn't fair.  People always throw that around and it's true.  We don't always get what we want.  So we as people need to adjust our expectations.  And if what you are doing and have been doing isn't getting you what you want, why do you think continuing the behavior is going to work?  Try something different.  Try a different approach.  If your DIL doesn't respond to your communication style, change it.  And yes, this isn't fair.  And yes, she is responsible for your relationship too.   But at this point, she seems to be the gatekeeper to what you want.  And, in my opinion, unless you approach it differently, she will continue to be standoffish.  Sometimes someone has to step down, even if they aren't in the wrong in order for all parties to move forward.  Again, this is just my thoughts.  I am not trying to attack you or make you feel bad.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Jillinthesky on August 30, 2011, 05:19:29 PM
I was washing dishes just now and thinking about all of this and I thought that maybe we could be giving advice for the wrong thing.  Chrisky, do you even want a relationship with your DIL or do you just want access to your grandchildren?  In your first post you said "To tell you the truth if it wasn't for the GDs, we'd totally ignore DS & DIL."
So you are ok with cutting of your Son and DIL as long as you get to see the grands? 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 30, 2011, 06:08:10 PM
Quote from: Sassy on August 30, 2011, 04:18:56 PM
QuoteAhh Pooh, you just hit something on the nail.  It seems like in these situations that the DH is better at communicating with his FOO and that is why his FOO has been assigned the responsibility.

Pam, and Pooh, this is great clarity of insight.

You know, reading Belle's post above about how a DH knows his parents better it got me thinking, he absolutely should have a better grasp on communication with his parents.

If he doesn't, that says something is wrong there that the DIL can't fix *anyway*  How can the DIL be expected to communicate with her husbands parents better, if he can't at all?

Interesting stuff
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pen on August 30, 2011, 10:24:17 PM
Just as DILs can pick up on MIL's unspoken feelings, I thing DHs can pick up on their DW's unspoken feelings. A DIL who says she doesn't prevent her DH from contacting or visiting his FOO can still influence him not to. My DS calls/visits when DIL is out of town - what does that tell me?

DS explained to me that he realizes DIL's FOO will always be very important to DIL and will always hover, so he decided not to fight it. He makes an effort to get along well with his ILs (he was raised well, don't you know.) There's not a lot of time left for his FOO. So, too bad for us, I guess.

"Just once I want you to get what you want and me to get what I want, and for them to get nothing!" (Lorelai Gilmore, speaking to her daughter about her manipulative, wealthy parents.)

I know how she feels.


Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 07:16:35 AM
Chrisky, hang in there.  The ladies are right here about you and I.  We did choose to do things as DILs.  Nobody made us, we choose to do it because we felt it was the right thing to do.  I can look back now and see how stressful it was for me, but I still would have done it again for my kids sake and for family.  We do have to honestly say that we choose it though.  We didn't have to, we just did it and I'm glad I did because my Sons are close to their GPs and have good relationships with them.  Some of our DILs here are dealing with MILs that are not good for their children and are protecting them.  I didn't have that.  I had an MIL that wasn't good for me, but treated the kids great so I never worried about that.  That made a huge difference in how I could put up with it.

They are also right that we probably have a harder time understanding why our DILs and DS's choose not to because we did do it.  It does boil down to that was a choice we made and it just doesn't happen to be our adult children's choice now.  It's frustrating and doesn't feel good but we have to accept it's their decision.  We don't have to like it, but we have to accept it.  I haven't seen my GD in almost 2 years (different story) and I know how hard it is when you just want to love them.  I will get my chance someday, and so will you.

Pen, I know my DH picked up on my frustrations with DIL too.  There is no way he could not have and I'm sure he felt caught in the middle.  She was pushing him to not come around his family and friends and he is responsible for that decision, not her.  Yes, she was an influence, but the ultimate decision was and is in his hands. 

Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 31, 2011, 07:30:03 AM
 :) :) Thanks for the comments Pooh, I'm hanging in. I appreciate all comments.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 07:48:07 AM
You'll find that we are really good here about having different opinions and not always agreeing, but willing to listen to everyone.  Everybody here gets frustrated sometimes (including me) when a post hits close to home, but there is so much support here from both DILs and MILs.  It's great to see other viewpoints and outside perspectives.  Kudos to you for keeping an open mind.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 31, 2011, 07:52:58 AM
Hey, I wanna find one of those men who do whatever their wife wants, I got some dishes and paint that needs finishing up!  (hopefully this guy is handy lol)

All jokes aside, I do think men generally do whatever they want and aren't held back by what is fair or equal in relationships.  So if he chooses to support his wife's wishes, it is his choice and an active
decision he made.

Well, and I know from my experience it wasn't ever a secret that I found MIL unpleasant.  As his wife, I tried talking to him multiple times while he had "head in sand" syndrome.  He never
had to decode how I felt or even how DD felt. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Belle on August 31, 2011, 08:14:43 AM
QuoteWell, and I know from my experience it wasn't ever a secret that I found MIL unpleasant.  As his wife, I tried talking to him multiple times while he had "head in sand" syndrome.  He never
had to decode how I felt or even how DD felt. 

Isn't that "head-in-the-sand" syndrome something!  My DH is STILL dealing with that.  Every now and then, after MIL has showed her tail (again), I have to remind him that our young daughters behave better than she does, and that's why she's not allowed around them.  Then, the next time he pops up wanting to take DD's to their house to visit them (usually the result of a crying, antagonistic guilt-trip or more threats from MIL), I just have to remind him "remember what she did last time?  And the time before that?  And the time before that?  And the time before that?"  And remember the letter she sent, about how she would 'find ways to see her GC's without us knowing?'  Has there EVER been a positive outcome when she gets time with DDs?  Track record, sweetheart.  Get your head out of the sand.  Your mother is a crazed common criminal, she just hasn't been arrested yet." 

Then he's like, "oh, yeah.  You're probably right.  Not a good idea." 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 08:20:38 AM
Quote from: pam1 on August 31, 2011, 07:52:58 AM
Hey, I wanna find one of those men who do whatever their wife wants, I got some dishes and paint that needs finishing up!  (hopefully this guy is handy lol)


I'm being serious when I say this, and it's going to sound bad.  I have one of those if I wanted to.  I truly could get him to do anything I wanted because he loves me so much.  Now, I don't use that against him, but I easily could.  Isn't that awful?
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Doe on August 31, 2011, 09:22:48 AM
There's a word for that:

uxorious:Adjective: Having or showing an excessive or submissive fondness for one's wife

(DH pointed this one out to me)

Title: Re: Hello
Post by: justanoldgrandma on August 31, 2011, 09:50:06 AM
I think Pooh's post says for me the generational difference for some of us..... we just took it for granted that we would see both sides of the family (we had no serious conflicts although we did let a lot of things that bothered us go for the sake of harmony.) 

Quote from: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 07:16:35 AM
Chrisky, hang in there.  The ladies are right here about you and I.  We did choose to do things as DILs.  Nobody made us, we choose to do it because we felt it was the right thing to do.  I can look back now and see how stressful it was for me, but I still would have done it again for my kids sake and for family.  We do have to honestly say that we choose it though.  We didn't have to, we just did it and I'm glad I did because my Sons are close to their GPs and have good relationships with them.  Some of our DILs here are dealing with MILs that are not good for their children and are protecting them.  I didn't have that.  I had an MIL that wasn't good for me, but treated the kids great so I never worried about that.  That made a huge difference in how I could put up with it.

They are also right that we probably have a harder time understanding why our DILs and DS's choose not to because we did do it.  It does boil down to that was a choice we made and it just doesn't happen to be our adult children's choice now.  It's frustrating and doesn't feel good but we have to accept it's their decision.  We don't have to like it, but we have to accept it.  I haven't seen my GD in almost 2 years (different story) and I know how hard it is when you just want to love them.  I will get my chance someday, and so will you.


My parents and dh's treated both sides equally as possible and so have we.  My dh does things for my FOO as well as for his; I send bday cards and buy presents for both sides of the family...... we don't say, "this is your family, take care of them and I'll take care of mine."

I do understand some dils have horrible MILs and that changes things.  When there is no real reason to favor one side of the family a great deal more than the other, then this is heartbreaking.   Is this generational?  Because as dils we were expected to honor dh's family..... I know I had to let some remarks/actions slide by for the family's sake...... so did dh as when at first my parents weren't too wild about him (this gradually changed and they love him now.) 

This is why it's so hard to "get" the favoritism or in OP's case, the neglect from the dil.....
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 31, 2011, 09:54:26 AM
justanoldgrandma, I tell myself all the time to let.it.go.  I'm curious, did your ILs and parents let stuff go?  Were they ok with sharing holiday time and that kind of stuff?

In DHs FOO it does seem like my GMIL was a lot more relaxed than my MIL as a grandparent.  DH has said his grandmother would have open house style holidays and he remembers having
private immediate family time every holiday.  Even now, she is certainly a more let it go type of family member.

So, I wonder if let it go only works when all parties are able to?
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 31, 2011, 09:58:12 AM
Quote from: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 08:20:38 AM
Quote from: pam1 on August 31, 2011, 07:52:58 AM
Hey, I wanna find one of those men who do whatever their wife wants, I got some dishes and paint that needs finishing up!  (hopefully this guy is handy lol)


I'm being serious when I say this, and it's going to sound bad.  I have one of those if I wanted to.  I truly could get him to do anything I wanted because he loves me so much.  Now, I don't use that against him, but I easily could.  Isn't that awful?

Pooh, I'm quite serious but you've got a gem there.  Ever since I joined and you've posted about your DH, I can see the love you and he have for each other.  I don't think it's bad that your DH
loves you that much, I have no doubt you return the same love to him. 

Title: Re: Hello
Post by: justanoldgrandma on August 31, 2011, 10:04:45 AM
Quote from: Pooh on August 29, 2011, 06:12:46 PM
Quote from: herbalescapes on August 29, 2011, 10:51:14 AM
However busy DS is, you are his relatives and therefore his responsibility.

Maybe think of it as payback that you never had to worry about DS coming home from school pregnant.  Sure, he might have impregnated someone, but that's not the same. 


I'm glad I don't feel this way about my DH and his family, nor he with mine.  They are both our responsibility. 

#2 I'm just going to say you are right, it isn't the same.   It is totally different with an entirely different set of worries, but I assure you, it is just as hard.


I agree w Pooh that both sides of the family are the responsibility of both dh and dw.
As far as a son impregnating a gf, I worried about this a great deal because our sons would have taken responsibility and perhaps married too young, etc.  They not us would have shrugged it off.  No payback in my book there!

Unless the ds fights his wife for visits w his FOO (if there is an inequity), and if the dil doesn't feel the need for dh and gc to see dh's FOO, then the sons' FOO are left trying to please the dil, walking on eggshells, bc it's too hard to give up seeing the family altogether; never did I dream this would be the case when a son married......
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: justanoldgrandma on August 31, 2011, 10:18:28 AM
Quote from: pam1 on August 31, 2011, 09:54:26 AM
justanoldgrandma, I tell myself all the time to let.it.go.  I'm curious, did your ILs and parents let stuff go?  Were they ok with sharing holiday time and that kind of stuff?

So, I wonder if let it go only works when all parties are able to?

Pam, yes, my ILs and parents let things go; my father didn't approve greatly of dh at first but grew to respect and love him.  My mother could criticize her dil to me (petty things) to vent but didn't confront her dil bc dil was really a great dil! 

My parents and ILs shared holidays w no problem.  It was "whatever works out for the most people" we will have the dinner, even if it wasn't on The Day.  Both sides were great about that. 

Now if all parties weren't able to "forget" remarks or "hogged" holidays, we'd have had to negotiate...... dh and I would have had to tell our families that we were going to alternate holidays..... inappropriate things were said at times and I know feelings got hurt; there were tense times until forgotten; we just didn't do the "cut offs" bc we wanted harmony; I frankly didn't know any of my friends (back then) who didn't see both sides of the family, even though sometimes they weren't too crazy about some of them!
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on August 31, 2011, 10:46:59 AM
Quote from: justanoldgrandma on August 31, 2011, 09:50:06 AM
I think Pooh's post says for me the generational difference for some of us..... we just took it for granted that we would see both sides of the family (we had no serious conflicts although we did let a lot of things that bothered us go for the sake of harmony.) 


My parents and dh's treated both sides equally as possible and so have we.  My dh does things for my FOO as well as for his; I send bday cards and buy presents for both sides of the family...... we don't say, "this is your family, take care of them and I'll take care of mine."

I do understand some dils have horrible MILs and that changes things.  When there is no real reason to favor one side of the family a great deal more than the other, then this is heartbreaking.   Is this generational?  Because as dils we were expected to honor dh's family..... I know I had to let some remarks/actions slide by for the family's sake...... so did dh as when at first my parents weren't too wild about him (this gradually changed and they love him now.) 

This is why it's so hard to "get" the favoritism or in OP's case, the neglect from the dil.....
[/quote]

Both DH & I treated both sides of the family equally as well.  It didn't matter who's birthday, anniversary it was and especially for holidays, we'd split our time between the 2 families.  So, yes, perhaps it is a generational thing.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 10:58:15 AM
I'm sure that factors into it. (When we are not talking about crazy MILs).    Let's face it...I look back at the "Leave it to Beaver" 50's and think those women were crazy being so subservient and never doing anything for themselves.   To them, I would have been considered a wild woman!  Lol.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: elsieshaye on August 31, 2011, 11:38:52 AM
Quote from: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 08:20:38 AMI'm being serious when I say this, and it's going to sound bad.  I have one of those if I wanted to.  I truly could get him to do anything I wanted because he loves me so much.  Now, I don't use that against him, but I easily could.  Isn't that awful?

No, it's not.  He obviously picked exactly the right woman - someone that he loves enough that she could totally use and abuse him, but someone who loves him enough (and is decent enough) not to.

Win-win!
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Sassy on August 31, 2011, 11:39:59 AM
Speaking of marriage roles, I learned this week that traditional thank you notes for hospitality are written only to the hostess, and not also addressed to her husband.  Because traditionally ladies alone used to handle a couples' correspondence.  I don't know if this tradition was established before or after the right to vote was granted.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Sassy on August 31, 2011, 11:55:59 AM
My mom, who's been happily married to my dad since she was a teenager, once told me a story about her stepmother (not her MIL).   My mother's natural mother died when my mother was a child. Her father soon remarried the woman who became to me my grandmother. 

When my mom was first married to my dad, my mom was excited to host her parents for a dinner in their first apartment.  She carefully set the table, cooked, and proudly served Chicken Cordon Bleu.  After, as my mom set the coffee and prepared dessert plates, my dad cleared the table.   Dad began rinsing off dishes and stacking them to wash later.

My grandmother called my mother in from the kitchen and waved her over to the chair. Grandmother whispered to my mother harshly "You will never keep a man if you don't learn to keep up with your woman's work! Send your husband back in here to visit and you rinse your dishes!"
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 11:58:38 AM
Quote from: elsieshaye on August 31, 2011, 11:38:52 AM
Quote from: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 08:20:38 AMI'm being serious when I say this, and it's going to sound bad.  I have one of those if I wanted to.  I truly could get him to do anything I wanted because he loves me so much.  Now, I don't use that against him, but I easily could.  Isn't that awful?

No, it's not.  He obviously picked exactly the right woman - someone that he loves enough that she could totally use and abuse him, but someone who loves him enough (and is decent enough) not to.

Win-win!

Thanks Elsie!  It's true....he could bend me around his little finger too if he choose to. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 12:01:18 PM
Quote from: Sassy on August 31, 2011, 11:39:59 AM
Speaking of marriage roles, I learned this week that traditional thank you notes for hospitality are written only to the hostess, and not also addressed to her husband.  Because traditionally ladies alone used to handle a couples' correspondence.  I don't know if this tradition was established before or after the right to vote was granted.

Now that's interesting...I've never heard that one.

Love the GM story! 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Sassy on August 31, 2011, 12:18:27 PM
The roles my grandparents had seemed to have worked for my grandparents, since til death did they part.  And my parents division of labor, while different than the ones in the home my mom came from, work for them, as they're still happy together.  Dad still clears the table.   When we're eating over there, before we get up to pitch in, we invariably tell dad to get back over here and visit and let mom do the woman's work!

That people in couples tend to do what they're best at, reminds me to remind my DH he is the best at changing the litter pan!
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 02:03:37 PM
Ha ha ha...you go girl!
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 31, 2011, 02:15:21 PM
Quote from: justanoldgrandma on August 31, 2011, 10:18:28 AM
Quote from: pam1 on August 31, 2011, 09:54:26 AM
justanoldgrandma, I tell myself all the time to let.it.go.  I'm curious, did your ILs and parents let stuff go?  Were they ok with sharing holiday time and that kind of stuff?

So, I wonder if let it go only works when all parties are able to?

Pam, yes, my ILs and parents let things go; my father didn't approve greatly of dh at first but grew to respect and love him.  My mother could criticize her dil to me (petty things) to vent but didn't confront her dil bc dil was really a great dil! 

My parents and ILs shared holidays w no problem.  It was "whatever works out for the most people" we will have the dinner, even if it wasn't on The Day.  Both sides were great about that. 

Now if all parties weren't able to "forget" remarks or "hogged" holidays, we'd have had to negotiate...... dh and I would have had to tell our families that we were going to alternate holidays..... inappropriate things were said at times and I know feelings got hurt; there were tense times until forgotten; we just didn't do the "cut offs" bc we wanted harmony; I frankly didn't know any of my friends (back then) who didn't see both sides of the family, even though sometimes they weren't too crazy about some of them!

justanoldgrandma, this sounds ideal.  And I think I approached our marriage in a similar way, for me, it was just too much being accused of stuff again and again.  I think the odd remark and selfish behavior is typical of everyone and we all have to let some things go in every relationship.  For me, it was more than that and quite toxic. 

I'm not sure what drives the DILs to cut their ILs before giving them a chance...I suspect they operate like my DHs family.  Outsiders are a threat, if you're not blood your not family.  Screwy ways of thinking that would probably take them years and exposure to a healthier way of living.  DH really did not know of another way.

I also wonder if some MILs (used to the status quo) may take advantage of saying the odd remark and should let it go.  Maybe there is a more relaxed familiarity b/c that's what they did and it is taken too far. 

Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Begonia on August 31, 2011, 04:04:20 PM
As far as roles go, there was not divorce in my family or my XH family, so we did not have to have all these different rules and schedules. After I got divorced we still spent holidays with my mom and XH mom because they both lived in the same town.  Then, after my DS and DD got married and divorced themselves it was splitting up hairs. DS and X never had children so that was less complicated than DD.   

"How will the holidays be split up this year?"  was always a question I asked my DD.  So my DD has to make sure she kept the GC schedules right so her X and his very close family shared equally.  Then My X and his wife wanted Christmas with DD and family, and I wanted some time with them too.  And everyone lives in towns at least 2-8 hours away.

So I stopped with the whole Christmas deal and now do gifts at all different times of the year and DS and DD are free to plan however they want.  I try to connect with them sometime between Thanksgiving and New Years but I live where weather is very unpredictable, so we keep plans very loose.  If it were up to me I would use all the money my family spends on gifts and (junk...oooops just MO) make sure it went for a worthy cause, like buying children's books for the library, or bringing flowers to the nursing home.   
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Begonia on August 31, 2011, 04:06:29 PM
Oh I had to laugh at my crazy sentence that sounds like my DS and DD divorced themselves.   ;D
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 04:26:28 PM
Shoot...there's been times I want to divorce myself!!!!!
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: pam1 on August 31, 2011, 04:29:13 PM
Hey, I've told myself I'm not talking to myself today!   :-X
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Begonia on August 31, 2011, 04:55:01 PM
Too funny....thanks for seeing the humor Pooh and Pam1 :)
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Belle on September 01, 2011, 09:08:44 AM
QuoteI'm not sure what drives the DILs to cut their ILs before giving them a chance...I suspect they operate like my DHs family.  Outsiders are a threat, if you're not blood your not family.  Screwy ways of thinking that would probably take them years and exposure to a healthier way of living.  DH really did not know of another way.

I also wonder if some MILs (used to the status quo) may take advantage of saying the odd remark and should let it go.  Maybe there is a more relaxed familiarity b/c that's what they did and it is taken too far.

Pam1, you hit it right on the head for me, as this is exactly the way my MIL is.  From day 1, it was clear that I was an outsider and would be treated differently than the "blood" kin, in a bad way.  Not being the blood kin relegated me to treatment not much better than the family dog, and put me in the spotlight for constant scrutiny.  MIL's comments to me were absolutely rude and nasty, however I was expected to just stick around and take it from her, whatever she decided to dish out, no matter how rude or ugly, and NEVER, EVER say anything or defend myself in any way...for that was her definition of "honour and respect."

When DH told her to keep her commentary to herself and try to treat me a little better, he "dishonoured and disrespected her."  When I stopped subjecting myself to her ridicule and awful behavior and just told her bluntly to stay away from me and my children....I "dishonoured and disrespected" her.    When she said "I've done nothing to apologize for, YOU'RE the one that needs to apologize!" and we told her not to contact us again until she could work on her behavior...we "dishonoured and disrespected" her yet again.   

I realize that our definitions of those concepts vary greatly, and they are all different.  MIL's definitions of those concepts and mine don't match....at all.  I guess I am jaded now, because every time I see that verbiage "DS/DIL have dishonoured/disrespected me," I too wonder if that person just thinks they get a "free pass" because they consider themselves a "grey hair" and I wonder in the back of my mind what the other side of the story is.  Conflicts are NEVER one-sided, and no one person is ever 100% responsible.  We all play our own parts in our situations. 

But that's not why we're here.  We're here to gain support and encouragement based on the info we're willing to share and how we've perceived it.  We're here to try to get a new perspective and attempt to "make sense of the senseless" by sharing thoughts and ideas, even suggestions.  I get a lot from all posts, MIL/DIL alike.  There are some real doozies out there, on both sides of the fence!                 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Chrisky on September 20, 2011, 10:25:22 AM
I'm sorry I haven't been on here much, although I have been reading other threads.  There hasn't been much change with our DIL/DS.  We haven't seen the GDs since the last time in August, but have spoken to them on the phone.  DH has been talking to DS more frequently as DS is moving his business office and DH has been checking out some things for him.  We haven't mentioned our discussion with DS, except yesterday DH asked if there was anything happening with DIL, and DS said he was working on it.  Whatever that means. 
I would like to say, I have been reading a lot of threads, and the advise given to everyone and I'd like to thank everyone who posts here.  I'm not feeling quite so upset and nervous with our situation.  I've been keeping busy, and now planning for a short 10 day vacation with DH.  I just don't want to think about this too much, and find I'm less stressed if I don't.  So we'll see what the future brings.  I'm not counting on any great improvement. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: forever spring on September 20, 2011, 11:06:18 AM
Quote from: justanoldgrandma on August 28, 2011, 12:20:45 PM
A wise lady told me that although she didn't care for a dil much, she prayed about it and decided that since her son loved this woman she (the mil) needed to love her, too, difficult as it was.  She tried to put the thoughts in her heart and head.



I love this sentiment quoted a few weeks ago. How true! And however difficult it is for me, I'll work on it, trying to put that thought in my heart and head, thanks justanoldgrandma from another justanoldgrandma who still has a lot to learn.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: forever spring on September 20, 2011, 11:33:40 AM
Quote from: herbalescapes on August 29, 2011, 10:51:14 AM

I would recommend not comparing your situation with the other GPs.  There are a host of reasons why the maternal and paternal sides of the family get different treatment.  Gone are the days when the wife is the family social secretary so you can blame DIL if your side of the family feels second rate.  However busy DS is, you are his relatives and therefore his responsibility.  If a DIL wants to pick up her husband's slack, that's great.  But if she doesn't want to for whatever reason, you shouldn't feel she is slighting you.  I know this gives the maternal relatives a huge edge since women are still better adept and willing to maintain family ties.

I've just started to read this thread and I've come accross so many amazing ideas that I have to post again. Everything which is said is so comforting and supporting of the way I have chosen to live my life now. Everybody is taking so much time to reply and shows so much concern for Chrisky and everybody else. I'll keep reading, maybe I'll be back with another quote. Thanks.