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Problem Solving => Daughter in Laws and/or Son in Laws => Topic started by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 06:23:48 AM

Title: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 06:23:48 AM
I wasn't going to write about this.  I was just gonna leave it alone and try to cope.  I was afraid of being judged because actually this time I do feel stupid and take blame.  On Saturday we went to where DS was staying.  He didn't know we knew, and we didn't plan of letting him know, but he was unreachable by phone and we had urgent business we needed to discuss.  Future DIL (FDIL) was there and I know she and I are on VERY bad terms so I told hubby to ask for him.  FDIL slammed the door in his face and locked it.  It had been open and she saw him coming. Anyway, she did get son. Son came out and talked to us.  He had left a note with some money he owed saying this should "sever our ties".  I wanted to know if he meant that he never wanted to speak to us again.  I know it was written to mean just that.  I also know that FDIL helped him write it.  Son doesn't say things like "sever".  Anyhoo...he changed it to mean it should just settle our debts.  I was relieved and I told him that I loved him and that I always would, but that we just couldn't live together.  I said when I couldn't take my mother's rules anymore I left too.  That's how its suppose to be.  We hugged, we said we loved each other and I asked him to stop by the house later because his favorite aunt was there.  I also told him I had a gift for him.

He came by, but I didn't have the gift because it was in the car and the car was still at the shop.  The visit was short but nice.  He told me that he was paying rent at the place they were staying. Par tically bragged about it, but he hated that I asked him to pay twenty bucks a weeks.  Anyhoo...I acted thrilled and bragged on how handsome he looked.  He left and all was well. 

Silly, stupid me really wanted to give him the gift.  It was something cheap, but something personal that I knew he'd like.  So we were running errands and we had the book with us and the house was on the way.  This time I got out the car.  I thought that she would close the door in my face too, but that he would come out, I would give him the gift and all would be well.

NOT WHAT HAPPENED!!!!  FDIL said "YOU ARE NOT WELCOMED HERE!!!"  I asked, "Can you get my son, please."  FDIL, "I'm calling the police".  Me, "Fine. I'll wait for them."  So she's just going off.  This girl who I let live with us for a year and was very good to.  Finally, son comes.  He immediately sides with her.  He told me that she is his future.  I will NOT disrespect her. I shouldn't have come.  Afterall, I'm only his mother.  The mother of his past.  He was angry with me.  And all I wanted to do was give him a gift. 

So here I was holding this gift in my hand while these kids that I had taken care of up until two weeks ago, looked down on me with great anger and hatred.  For reasons that I will never understand.  I left.  I texted him via her phone since he didn't have one, or not one that I had access to.  I told her that he said he paid rent there otherwise I would not have come. She said he pays nothing.  I texted me that she is his future and if I didn't respect and accept her I wouldn't have him.  I said I demand to be respected too.  She wrote, "I have him and you don't, so leave us alone."  Oh and I'll never see the grandkids.   He said the same.  I apologized.  Told them I respect that she is his future and after our business is complete I will accept the fact that I have only two sons.  No reply.   BTW, I don't really care right now about any grandkids. 

I have decided that I don't care for a relationship with him or her.  Sadly, that will include any GC.  But such is life and I shall not die because of it.  Perhaps one day he'll remember he had a good family.  Perhaps not.  He's not dead.  Just a stranger to me.  This would probably hurt more if he were my only child or only son.  But I have two more that love me and tell me so everyday.  I have a husband who also supports me and has also been shunned by same son for no reason.  Hubby says he's fine with it and that DS will have regrets.  Hubby hasn't lost any sleep or had to join a forum.  My middle son tries extra hard to make up for his brother.  My mother calls to remind me of the things we did for them. 

I'm going to live as though I had only two children.  Only thing is that we live in a small town and I get sick thinking we may run into each other.  God, but I hope they move far far away. 

Thanks for letting me vent.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 07:00:45 AM
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I'm so sorry that woman is behaving this way. And that your son has sided with her. I will never understand how our family can turn on us like that. So sad for you. Maybe in time (like a long time) they will both mature and they can be a part of your life.  :'(

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 07:08:52 AM
Thanks so much for that ADIL.  Those hugs really meant a lot to me, as well as the words.  I really appreciate it.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 03, 2011, 07:15:58 AM
Sorry that this has gotten to the point it has, muffin.  I wish you peace and lots of happiness away from this negativity.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: tryingmybest on May 03, 2011, 07:21:31 AM
I am so sorry for the pain you are going through. Sending you a big hug too. I agree cutting off at this point is the only way to go. no contact, zero because sometimes that's the only way DS can really get a realistic look at his future wife. Right now she's blaming problems all on you and DH because she wants your son cut off from his family of origin.  When you are no longer in the picture things may clear up a bit for your  son. You have done every thing you could do!
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: LaurieS on May 03, 2011, 07:28:11 AM
Quote from: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 06:23:48 AM
Hubby says he's fine with it and that DS will have regrets.  Hubby hasn't lost any sleep or had to join a forum.  My middle son tries extra hard to make up for his brother. 

Oh Muffin... as hard as it is I'm glad you have kept a sense of humor.  Let him find himself and I'm sure he will eventually, don't just write him off.  His gf delivered her message with quite a punch and with some time and separation she too might mature into someone who can first view life through more then just the 'me' mode and also learn to articulate a tad better :) 

You have two other children who want you to be happy, healthy and productive... move towards that direction and you'll be fine.  So often we dwell on those that are pulling away when the easiest way to possibly bring them back is to find happiness in our own lives. Wishing you luck... I found that mani's and pedi's really help me calm down if only for an hour or two.

Let us know how you're feeling later today or tomorrow.. thinking of you
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 07:41:04 AM
Quote from: tryingmybest on May 03, 2011, 07:21:31 AM
IRight now she's blaming problems all on you and DH because she wants your son cut off from his family of origin.  When you are no longer in the picture things may clear up a bit for your  son. You have done every thing you could do!

Wow, TMB! You just opened my eyes to my SIL. She has done the same thing! Even went as far as to post " i feel like the drama has finally be removed and a weight has been lifted and i can live my life :)" .... Really? Because I RARELY ever saw you. How could I have brought so much drama to you?

My mom sees it too. She is waiting for her cut-off.  :'( How can people be so mean and self-centered?

Muffin, hopefully this does open DS's eyes to the true her. When he suddenly has no contact with anyone that he has ever cared about, he should realize what she has done. Just be there for him, when he comes back. ((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 07:43:18 AM
Thank you Overwhelmed and Tryingmybest.

I am sorry it has gotten to this point as well.  As I stood there while son looked at me with no love in his eyes, no recognition that I was his mother, I no longer saw my son.  There was this man and yes, he looked like my son, but I felt no connection to him. 

I wanted so badly to be a good MIL someday.  I wanted to treat my DILs like the daughters I never had.  But she never liked me, but even that wasn't her fault.  DS had really made me sound very controlling and a bit in need of therapy.  That truly hurt me because he was the son that I believed truly liked me.  We were very, very close.  It hurt to find out he had so many unkind things to say about me.  Anyway, when she moved in I thought she would see that I was a nice person.  And she said as much after we talked things out.  I thought she and I were actually getting along well.  And all was well until the day before they had to leave.  That was when she let her true feeling show again.  I felt like I had been stuck by a car.  I didn't expect that.  But boy was I glad she did it.  All that time I had her in my home, treating her like family, buying her gifts and trying to make her feel loved.  I even sided with her over him when he kept cheating on her.  I also threw myself between them and refused to allow him to hit her when she spat in his face.  I thought she cared for me because I had grown to care for her. But she didn't. She always hated me and she let it come out and I was actually relieved.  Glad to have known her true feelings.

Tryinmybest, you made a point that I had often thought about.  I do believe that she wants to cut him off from his family.  I believe it's because of her own insecurities.  When he was cheating on her and crying, I held her and she said, "Why does everyone leave me? Why can't they love me?'  That broke my heart.  See, she doesn't have a strong relationship with her mother, as her mother allowed her to be raised many years by family members who she said abused her physically and sexually.  I was so upset with my son for hurting her like that.  Anyway, I think that having him be alienated helps her feel secure that he will be dependent on her.  She'll be all he has and he'll have no place else to go and thus he will never leave her.  He owes her a lot of money and right now they are living in what I now know is her house.   He is totally dependent on her and that's just how she wants it.

I told DS a long time ago, that when you meet someone you love and want to share you life with, it doesn't mean you have them instead of your family.  It means you have them in addition to your family.  He has decided he doesn't need his family.  So sad....
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 08:03:35 AM

Muffin, hopefully this does open DS's eyes to the true her. When he suddenly has no contact with anyone that he has ever cared about, he should realize what she has done. Just be there for him, when he comes back. ((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))
[/quote]

ADIL--I'm afraid.  I don't know how I will feel about him when or if he finally decides to come back.  When someone hurts me very badly, someone who I've loved and devoted my life to, I have a hard time letting go.  When someone who I never expected to harm my heart does so with no regard, repeatedly I tend to go cold.  I don't know, perhaps a defensive mechanism.  I am so afraid because I don't know how I would feel about him if he came back.  I know I will always love him, but I just don't see me running to him with open arms and heart when he decides that I'm worthy of his love again.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 03, 2011, 08:05:21 AM
Muffin, I can't remember, have you been to a therapist or counselor about this yet?  If not, I think this would be a great time to get it all out to someone who can help keep you on the right track!
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 08:07:32 AM
Nope. you guys have been my only help. ;)  And  you're pretty dang good! :)
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 03, 2011, 08:09:55 AM
Hehehe, well there's no denying that.  Just know that there's always that alternative if you ever feel you need that extra, unbiased support! :)
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 03, 2011, 08:13:58 AM
Muffin,

I am so sorry. It sounds like you're doing a darn fine job of taking care of you, and that is all you can do at this point. I do think a lot of  what they were doing was a part of overreacting, and I think that with time, they'll simmer down and come back around. I know that doesn't take away some of the hurt, but  hopefully that is what we're here for.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Scoop on May 03, 2011, 08:14:44 AM
Muffin - hopefully this time apart will give him a chance to grow up.  I think he needs a healthy dose of reality.

I think that you've seen them at their worst, lying, stealing, cheating, fighting ect and maybe they're a bit ashamed about it.

I think you're only hope right now is time and space (and I don't mean weeks or months, I mean years - sorry).
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 08:18:21 AM
Quote from: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 08:03:35 AM

Muffin, hopefully this does open DS's eyes to the true her. When he suddenly has no contact with anyone that he has ever cared about, he should realize what she has done. Just be there for him, when he comes back. ((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))

ADIL--I'm afraid.  I don't know how I will feel about him when or if he finally decides to come back.  When someone hurts me very badly, someone who I've loved and devoted my life to, I have a hard time letting go.  When someone who I never expected to harm my heart does so with no regard, repeatedly I tend to go cold.  I don't know, perhaps a defensive mechanism.  I am so afraid because I don't know how I would feel about him if he came back.  I know I will always love him, but I just don't see me running to him with open arms and heart when he decides that I'm worthy of his love again.
[/quote]

Well, I'm still pretty young and dumb enough to fall for the repeat offenders lol.... They hurt me, leave me, come back, hurt me again, apologize, hurt me again, you get the picture.

My brother finds it nearly impossible to forgive someone and I am just the opposite. I forgive all the time. True, I don't "let go" of stuff when the person doesn't apologize, but Hey, they are only human.  :-\
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 08:20:23 AM
Thank you, everyone!  I feel SO MUCH better. 

Thanks for the words of wisdom Holly.  However, I don't see her ever coming around. I think she has mother issues in general.  I think Scoop may be accurate in her opinion of it taking years.  Personally, I've been imagining our death bed reunion, or an reenactment of the last scene of "The Imitation of Life".   ::)  Hmmmm....maybe I am a bit over the top, lol.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 08:25:44 AM


[/quote]

Well, I'm still pretty young and dumb enough to fall for the repeat offenders lol.... They hurt me, leave me, come back, hurt me again, apologize, hurt me again, you get the picture.

My brother finds it nearly impossible to forgive someone and I am just the opposite. I forgive all the time. True, I don't "let go" of stuff when the person doesn't apologize, but Hey, they are only human.  :-\
[/quote]

I admire you for that.  I truly do.  That's a gift and a blessing when one is able to forgive.  I wish I was able to do so.  I wish I knew how to let go and move on because I feel just as punished when I am unable to let go.    I am praying for the gift to be able to forgive and move on.  Don't get me wrong, I have forgiven many trespasses.  But there are some that attack my very soul and sadly, this feels like one of them.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 08:29:47 AM
Quote from: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 08:25:44 AM
That's a gift and a blessing when one is able to forgive. 

It's also a curse lol... it leads to the never ending cycle of happiness followed by pain....  :-\
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Pen on May 03, 2011, 08:36:14 AM
Muffin, I'm glad you're feeling better. When DS decides you're not evil and makes moves to reconcile, try not to go overboard even if your heart is bursting with all the pent up love and affection you've not been able to express. IMHO, you could scare him away if you're too enthusiastic. Think "skittish colt." Make slow, careful movements towards him only after he's made a move towards you.

That mani-pedi idea of Laurie's works wonders for me, too, but it could be anything that gives you confidence and brings peace to your troubled mind...so what are going to do for yourself today?

RE: forgiveness, it's the most difficult thing for me. I struggle daily. The old saying, "Not forgiving someone is like drinking poison
and expecting the other person to die," is true IMHO. I just get all caught up in my need for justice although I'm improving (slowly.)
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 08:37:33 AM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 08:29:47 AM
Quote from: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 08:25:44 AM
That's a gift and a blessing when one is able to forgive. 

It's also a curse lol... it leads to the never ending cycle of happiness followed by pain....  :-\

Awww ADIL, sometimes I think you're a younger me.  I can't hold a grudge, it's impossible for me, no matter how much I want too. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: tryingmybest on May 03, 2011, 08:41:52 AM
It sounds like your future DIL is really coming from a place of fear. I really still think that's at the heart of these conflicts. If DIL is afraid of being abandoned by her DH one way to head that off is to make sure she's the only one left in his life. If he's cut everyone else off, where's he going to go? And probably wacky Mil's  are dealing with the same fear of abandonment. I'd just love to see all women at every age coming from a place of confidence and support for each other as women. Oh well we can dream.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 03, 2011, 08:48:14 AM
Just remember- you can forgive someone for their actions toward you without forgetting how much they have hurt you.  There are different types of forgiveness.  There are people I will probably never speak to again, not because I haven't forgiven them, but simply because I remember how much they have hurt me and I don't care to make myself vulnerable to them anymore.  But my heart is clear of any ill will toward them.  Perhaps you will get to that point- and if you do, don't be hard on yourself.  We are only human.  There comes a point where self preservation kicks in, even if we forgive the past in our hearts.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 08:49:21 AM
Quote from: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 08:37:33 AM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 08:29:47 AM
Quote from: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 08:25:44 AM
That's a gift and a blessing when one is able to forgive. 

It's also a curse lol... it leads to the never ending cycle of happiness followed by pain....  :-\

Awww ADIL, sometimes I think you're a younger me.  I can't hold a grudge, it's impossible for me, no matter how much I want too.

It's funny, the only "grudge" I carry is for an old college classmate of mine. She always stole my homework, and I told her I thought she didn't like me for me and could we just leave the homework out of it. Well, she somehow made me into the bad guy for that and never spoke to me again. It makes me soooo sad to have lost such a good friend over something so silly. Sooooo I guess I hold a grudge for her not "forgiving" me, even though I didn't need forgiveness to begin with. People are too complicated! I'm going to live on an island with my dog! lol
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 08:50:01 AM
Excellent point OW!
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 03, 2011, 08:52:34 AM
I meant to also add, these 2 people sound like they have a lot of things going on.  Your son, being a compulsive liar for unknown reasons; and your FDIL who you have admitted has some family/mother problems of her own.  They are responsible for their own actions, but remember you are dealing with two people who very well could have some sort of undiagnosed problems.  Don't know if it's any consolation, but when I'm dealing with these types of people, I find it helps me to remember- their problems are about them.  Not me.  Doesn't mean I open myself up to getting hurt again, but it helps me resist asking, "what did I do to deserve this?"
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 09:11:00 AM
LOL OW.  I just get to the point where I'm done with someone or something and I don't care.  I have no idea if that is forgiveness or not, I'm told it is indifference. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 09:12:09 AM
I meant to say ADIL in my post above.   ???
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 09:21:41 AM
Hey Laurie!!!!

   You make me seem much funnier than I am, lol.  I wish I could be more like hubby.  Each night he comes home and hugs the dog like he never had a first born.  I hope he doesn't start calling Fudge, "Junior".  DS was his namesake.  I was just thinking about the GC threat, and thought, oh well, I'll just get a puppy if I feel needy. 

DITTO ADIL,  OW made an excellent point!  You guys are better than any therapist I could EVER pay for.  Not only have I recieved words of wisdom, humor, understanding, but I got it from so many Wise Women, who truly understand and relate.

ADIL and Pam are going to stay beautiful inside and out for a long time.  Holding grudges and being angry make you sick.  I know.  I can hold a grudge until the end of days.  Oh, and don't let me get a flash back.  It's just like playing a movie in my head.  I can remember things and detail.  Ummmm...Not a gift I assure you!

TMB,  You seem to have the same thoughts about FDIL as I do.  I am so relieved to know that the someone else sees this too.  Too bad DS doesn't. 

THANKS GUYS..  I am a city worker and some claim we don't work.  Well...today that was true.  I've worked about one hour in total so far. LOL
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 03, 2011, 09:23:27 AM
Quote from: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 09:11:00 AM
LOL OW.  I just get to the point where I'm done with someone or something and I don't care.  I have no idea if that is forgiveness or not, I'm told it is indifference.

Haha..well you can't be said to be holding a grudge if you don't care...so...maybe it's both?  :)
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 09:28:59 AM
Indifference.... Ewwww..... It is a 4 letter word IMO..... Why? because it is the lack of emotion. I would rather be hated than treated with indifference because then at least they still, in a way, care...... But, horrible me, I've realized that I am indifferent towards my MIL and her daughter. It was the only way to stop their hatred from ripping me apart, sooooo, maybe it isn't so bad after all?
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 09:35:54 AM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on May 03, 2011, 09:23:27 AM
Quote from: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 09:11:00 AM
LOL OW.  I just get to the point where I'm done with someone or something and I don't care.  I have no idea if that is forgiveness or not, I'm told it is indifference.

Haha..well you can't be said to be holding a grudge if you don't care...so...maybe it's both?  :)

I don't know.  I have a hard time with the concept of forgiveness but 99 times out 100 I will always give in to the other person.  So I seem to think on the 1 out of 100 times I ask for something, I should get it.  If someone continually denies me and then creates a fuss over my 1 time, I just seem to think they are not worth my time. 

Basically, I'm not a persistent person.  I'd be a horrible salesman, "oh you don't want that?  ok, good bye then" and out the door. 

For me, it's just much more important to feel like I did the right thing, try my best rather than having a specific outcome.  I don't know if that makes any sense.

Thanks TheMuffin :)  that's kind of you to say.

Adil, I know, that's why I'm not sure if my way is better or not -- indifference is the opposite of love, it's not hate as most people commonly think.  I don't know, it just seems to me if you try your best and you know it, there isn't much to hold on to. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 09:41:11 AM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 09:28:59 AM
Indifference.... Ewwww..... It is a 4 letter word IMO..... Why? because it is the lack of emotion. I would rather be hated than treated with indifference because then at least they still, in a way, care...... But, horrible me, I've realized that I am indifferent towards my MIL and her daughter. It was the only way to stop their hatred from ripping me apart, sooooo, maybe it isn't so bad after all?

Indifference is good!!!  There truly is a thin line between love and hate.  You explained indifference so well!  It takes effort to hate.  And yes, you have to care in order to hate.  But indifference means that it means nothing to you one way or the other, thus it can't effect your life.  I like indifference and I hope one way to feel that for FDIL.  Right now I'm torn between hurt and anger.

I was twenty something when I learned the opposite of love was not hate...it's indifference.

Oh, I was twenty something too when I learned a new lesson on love.  I remember thinking that true love lasted forever.  Sweet but not true.  I read this somewhere and I completely agree:

Yesterday's love is gone
Tomorrow's love is not here yet
And today's love has to be earned

Not as romantic or sweet but it makes sense to me.

Hugs WW!!!
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 09:45:21 AM
Quote from: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 09:35:54 AM
Basically, I'm not a persistent person.  I'd be a horrible salesman, "oh you don't want that?  ok, good bye then" and out the door. 

We had a family balloon-sculpting business for 6 years. We were horrible when it came to taking money. The kid would order the balloon (oftentimes WITH the parent right there) and walk away without paying. We never "hunted them down" for the money. Oh, being stiffed was NOT fun! lol
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: justus on May 03, 2011, 09:50:32 AM
Wow, Muffin, what a scene. I can just imagine you standing there with the book in your hand and your jaw on the ground in shock over such an extreme reaction to your presence.  What do you say in the face of all of that? Leaving was the best thing you could have done.

And, leaving them alone is the best thing you can continue to do. I sounds like you were way too involved in their lives when they lived with you. Just from what you wrote, you were the buffer, you put yourself into their relationship, probably at their invitation, and made things OK, smoothed things over. Now without you as a buffer, we will see how well things go. You never know, they might be able to work things out, but either way, whatever blinders they had on will be coming off very soon.

Just for future reference, it is a very bad idea to be in the middle of your children's relationships. I learned this from my M. My OS would run to M and tell her all about her problems with BIL. An hour later, OS and BIL and made up, but M was still mad at BIL for whatever he had supposedly done. OS was/is a notorious liar and knew how to turn truth into wild stories in which she was the poor victim. She got lots of sympathy, but family functions were awkward. OS finally got it that she was causing the rift, so she stopped being so overly dramatic about it, and found someone else to talk to. M expected me to tell her all the dirt and was very upset when I didn't let her into the middle of my M. She didn't like my first H, anyway, there was no way I was going to add fuel to the fire.

Best thing you can do is to listen and to empathize, but never, ever offer an opinion or take sides. Also, realize you are getting only part of the story. With your DS's GF, the better thing to do is to say you are sorry she is in such pain, but you are not comfortable talking with her about her issues with your DS and change the subject, hang up, or walk away. You know that whatever you say will be held against you so it is better to not go there ever.

Don't lose hope here. Neither of these two people sound very mature or very together. With only the two of them to bounce off of, things aren't going to be so sweet. I predict huge drama in the very near future and they are going to try to drag you into the middle of it. As much as it feels good to be needed and to be able to rescue them, don't do it. Let them deal with the natural consequences of their own choices. It will be hard, but they will never grow up or learn anything if you protect them.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 10:16:54 AM
You are so right Justus...  I was all up in the Kood-Aid.  I no it wasn't wise, but I have NO tolerance for infidelity.  I take it very personal and my DS knows that.  I tried to teach all of my boys that it was okay to walk away from a relationship if you weren't happy.  In fact, that it the only fair and humane thing to do.  I told them that it was wrong to hang on to a person if you really didn't want them.  If they aren't enough for you than let them go.  I stressed that you are given this one little life and the greatest gift you can give to a person is the gift of yourself, sharing the one life that God gave you.  You don't get to start over.  So if this person is not the one, care for them enough to let them go and perhaps find the one who will cherish their most precious gift....the gift of themself.  But here was DS cheating and flaunting it in her face. 

Talk about a ugly scene...FDIL finds DS and Other Woman (OW) in bed at my home.  DS tells OW FDIL is crazy and it's over but she won't let go.  FDIL is forcefully removed from room, falls to the floor crying her heart out.  MS calls me and tells me about it.  She texts me her little heart out and text challenged me takes hours trying to assure her she's lovable, and beautiful and it's his issue and not hers. Blah, blah, blah.  Everyday I sent her affirmations.  Just telling her she was worthy to be loved, she was smart or "You're beautiful".  ALL IN THE KOOL-AID.  DS probably wanted to tell me to butt out, but I could never condone wrong and just stand by and watch it happen.  I always told them that I would never defend them if they were wrong.

Oh, and just like you wrote, they made up and I'm sure DS was not pleased with me. So yes, I will not make the same "mistake" with the other two.  But must admit if they ever did treat women the way DS does it would be difficult for me to turn a blind eye.  But I will have to go against my character if I want to maintain a relationship with them I suppose.    I did try talking to DS when he first cheated.  I told him that it truly hurts and if he cared for a even a little, he'd leave her before he continued to break her spirit.  He pretended to listen.  I bet he was calling me names in his head.  YEP.I WILL MYOB!!!

Thanks again for all this wonderful advice.  Glad you don't charge by the hour, lol.

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: luise.volta on May 03, 2011, 10:53:19 AM
Tough stuff. It seems to me like you had a sort-of agreement until you took the book over. How often one thing like that blows the lid off. Had you mailed the book...my sense is it would only have been a matter of time. Sad. And I'm glad you have an e-family here. We do care...a lot.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 03, 2011, 10:55:03 AM
I most certainly did not have an affair with your son!!!  ;) :)  ;D
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 10:58:29 AM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on May 03, 2011, 10:55:03 AM
I most certainly did not have an affair with your son!!!  ;) :)  ;D

BEST LAUGH ALL DAY!!!  THANKS!! Laughter is the best medicine.

Luise, I know you hear it all the time, but you are an amazing person and what you have created here has helped so many lives.  I am so grateful to have found this place  Thank you so much for letting be a part of this amazing forum.  It has helped me more than any therapist ever could.  I know this because I used to go to them.  THanks for always caring enough to respond with some words of wisdom.  It truly mean a lot.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 11:03:31 AM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on May 03, 2011, 10:55:03 AM
I most certainly did not have an affair with your son!!!  ;) :)  ;D

LOVE!!!!! :-)
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: luise.volta on May 03, 2011, 11:17:31 AM
We shoot! I'm not having an affair with anybody's son!  :'(

And you are Welcome. It's comments like yours that keep me, Kirk and our Moderators going. I'm sending your kudos on to Kirk.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Unknown on May 03, 2011, 12:03:44 PM
Well I cant really give you advice or praise you because I dont have all the info. There has to be a reason why your fdil has so much hostility towards you. What role did you play trying to make your relationship better with her? How did you treat her when they lived with you ?I cant give you advice til I know all the info.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 12:08:54 PM
Unknown,

Muffin has given us plenty of info regarding how she treated FDIL while she was living under muffin's roof. She has put up with a lot. I hope that in the future their relationship will be mended.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 03, 2011, 12:10:44 PM
Unknown, not only has muffin given us plenty of information, but I don't think she asked for advice.  She's got a pretty good handle on the situation at hand.  She just wanted to vent.  Those of us who have been here do know the whole situation, though, and we seem to be in agreement here.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: justus on May 03, 2011, 12:18:35 PM
Muffin, that is good advice to give your sons. I have given my children similar advice. I have also told them all that if the person they were with didn't know he wanted to be with them and only them, he wasn't worth their time. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

I probably would have told my DS off over the same behavior, or we would have talked about it and I would have made it clear that I did not approve and was very disappointed. But there is such a fine line that is so easy to step over. It is somewhere between being a shoulder to cry on and being emotionally invested in the outcome to the point where you are just as much a part of the problem.  I know these two people have behaved badly and are out of line on many counts, but I can just imagine how smothered they felt.

I am glad for all of you that they are out of your house. Maybe with distance and time things will settle and you can establish a more adult relationship with them.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Unknown on May 03, 2011, 12:22:49 PM
Hmm where all she said was she told her son she left too when she couldnt abide by her parents rules. What rules? But I do applaud her son for asking for respect for his future wife. Sounds to me the poster cant accept her son's future marriage.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 03, 2011, 12:26:25 PM
Again unknown, being that you're new, you don't know the history of this situation.  So it's probably best for you to sit this one out instead of judging unfairly.  I don't think it would be fair to muffin to rehash her entire situation.  Once you've been here for awhile and become acquainted, you'll know everyone's stories.  That is, if you decide this place is for you.  From what I've read, I think that is questionable.  You seem very defensive for never posting here before.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Unknown on May 03, 2011, 12:26:41 PM
@ Anonymous sometimes relationships cant be saved. But maybe there is hope for this one.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 12:28:07 PM
Respect is a two-way street. The FDIL should be respecting her as well. The world would be a much better place if everyone would just show each other a little respect and forgiveness....
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: luise.volta on May 03, 2011, 12:32:05 PM
Unknown - I am going to ask you not to post anything further until you have had a chance to interact with your Board Moderator, Holly. Thank you.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Unknown on May 03, 2011, 01:04:50 PM
Thanks Luise I already talked to Holly.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 03, 2011, 01:07:17 PM
Unknown,

I mentioned in the other board you posted on to review our Forum Agreement. I also mentioned to read some of the stories on here first. Muffin, in particular, has been very forward and specific with details and has also said she wanted to vent. This is not a place for attacking, and she was only looking for some sort of support.

I can edit/remove posts and I can also recommend deletion of an account. I hope that isn't necessary. If you can not objectively state your opinion about this without making it personal, please do not post.  I'm sure you have noteworthy experience you can rely on to give advice, as opposed to making assumptions about what the original poster has or  hasn't done to her FDIL.

You are coming in here on the defense; that's the only reason why people are being curt with you. People disagreeing with you is by no means attacking.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 01:13:29 PM
Just returned from lunch and saw this.  Thanks to ADIL and OW and JustUs and Luise for defending me in my absence.   :) It felt like a warm hug!  ;D

Okay...I have to say YIPPEE!!!!  This place is so good for the soul.  A week or two ago I would have been so upset to read Unknown's remarks.  But because of this site, because of all of you ladies  I am already so much stronger and open minded.   ;D

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: SassyDI on May 03, 2011, 01:32:46 PM
How do you read past stories?
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: luise.volta on May 03, 2011, 01:33:40 PM
Wonderful endorsement, TM!  :)
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 01:39:55 PM
Quote from: SassyDI on May 03, 2011, 01:32:46 PM
How do you read past stories?
If you click on the person's name it brings up their profile on the lower left side it says "show posts." Then you can see everything they've posted in the past.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Keys Girl on May 03, 2011, 03:26:01 PM
Themuffin, there's an old saying, "Do what you can with what your have where you are".

It hasn't really been very long since they left your home if I'm reading these posts properly.  Their emotions are still pretty intense, I'll bet.  I would take the time away from them to concentrate on your own life, and move on.  Given that your son was reluctant to pay for rent when he was at your home but is paying it now, it doesn't speak well to his sense of responsibility for standing on his own two feet.  It's very sad, but sometimes as far as I'm concerned ya gotta kick them baby birds outa the nest and let them fly for themselves.  I speak from experience here, my son and future DIL cut off contact last year and it was agony for the first couple of months.  It's pretty quiet now and I've grown fond of the peace and quiet and no blame shifting and squabbling.  It's not really what I had envisioned for his future but some times you don't get what your ordered in the "Big Restaurant of Life". 

Good luck and like the English say "Keep calm and carry on".
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 03, 2011, 04:47:34 PM
Quote from: Keys Girl on May 03, 2011, 03:26:01 PM
Themuffin, there's an old saying, "Do what you can with what your have where you are".

I don't know if it's the situation with dd, or things in the news in recent weeks, but I'm feeling pretty low lately.  How do move forward when you have no motivation? 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 04:49:19 PM
Beer.

Ok, just kidding.  When I get really low I start taking a look at my 'Bucket List'  Do you have one? 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: alohomora on May 03, 2011, 04:58:32 PM
Muffin,

From a DIL perspective, maybe I can offer some advice here if you choose to try and work towards a better relationship.

Given that there were already hard feelings between the two of you, stopping by their house unannounced wasn't a good idea. Doing it once and getting the door slammed in your face should have been a good indicator that you weren't welcomed. The home belongs to both of them - who pays rent there doesn't concern you and shouldn't come into question - its both their homes. I understand why you went the first time, being unable of communicating with your son. And he was clearly happy to see you despite your issues. That's great.

But showing up again, for whatever reason, unannounced, and in such a short period of time...bad idea. Sounds like you knew the reaction you'd get.

As for your DIL...well her comments to you are rude and childish. She's clearly engaged in full on drama mode. Best to avoid her for the time being.

If I was her...right now what I'd want from you is maybe an apology for invading their space, maybe let them know you love them and will not be coming by again unannounced, that your door is open, that sort of thing.

Its frustrating, I know, having to bite your tongue. But I know from experience, I too was like your DIL. And my MIL was overly aggressive and meddlesome until we had to go into a two year cut off. That was over five years ago. We now have a very close relationship, and love and respect each other. Growing pains sometimes, just hurt.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 03, 2011, 05:02:28 PM
No, no bucket list...  Maybe that's the problem, I'm not thinking big enough.  Skydiving?  Pole dancing?  Mud wrestling?  For now, believe I'll stick with beer/wine... : )   

Thanks, Pam
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 05:03:29 PM
Rose?! Pole-dancing?! LOL Fabulous bucket list!!!
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 05:09:45 PM
Quote from: Rose799 on May 03, 2011, 05:02:28 PM
No, no bucket list...  Maybe that's the problem, I'm not thinking big enough.  Skydiving?  Pole dancing?  Mud wrestling?  For now, believe I'll stick with beer/wine... : )   

Thanks, Pam

Wow, that's an exciting bucket list lol.

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 03, 2011, 05:16:48 PM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 05:03:29 PM
Rose?! Pole-dancing?! LOL Fabulous bucket list!!!

On second thought, make that "pole leaning."   I found the wine, now all I need is cheese~   :)
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 03, 2011, 05:22:33 PM
I hope you have a better day tomorrow Rose.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 05:27:40 PM
Quote from: Rose799 on May 03, 2011, 05:16:48 PM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 05:03:29 PM
Rose?! Pole-dancing?! LOL Fabulous bucket list!!!

On second thought, make that "pole leaning."   I found the wine, now all I need is cheese~   :)

What about stand up comedy?  You make me LOL all the time here.  Including the comment above  ;D
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: SassyDI on May 03, 2011, 05:53:08 PM
Quote from: alohomora on May 03, 2011, 04:58:32 PM
Muffin,

From a DIL perspective, maybe I can offer some advice here if you choose to try and work towards a better relationship.

Given that there were already hard feelings between the two of you, stopping by their house unannounced wasn't a good idea. Doing it once and getting the door slammed in your face should have been a good indicator that you weren't welcomed. The home belongs to both of them - who pays rent there doesn't concern you and shouldn't come into question - its both their homes. I understand why you went the first time, being unable of communicating with your son. And he was clearly happy to see you despite your issues. That's great.

But showing up again, for whatever reason, unannounced, and in such a short period of time...bad idea. Sounds like you knew the reaction you'd get.

As for your DIL...well her comments to you are rude and childish. She's clearly engaged in full on drama mode. Best to avoid her for the time being.

If I was her...right now what I'd want from you is maybe an apology for invading their space, maybe let them know you love them and will not be coming by again unannounced, that your door is open, that sort of thing.

Its frustrating, I know, having to bite your tongue. But I know from experience, I too was like your DIL. And my MIL was overly aggressive and meddlesome until we had to go into a two year cut off. That was over five years ago. We now have a very close relationship, and love and respect each other. Growing pains sometimes, just hurt.

Ireally hate the term I won.  Nobody wins when there is a family rift.  Going though all your post is hard being a mother of a three year with a hubby in a wheel chair its just way to hard to leaf though all of them.  I did agree  with the above post.  I think clearly its a boundry yes the dread boundry issue.  I can not stand people showing up to my door unannounced or uninvitied.  Christmas 2010 DH told FIL and his wife not to show up at our doorstep.  They did and yes I slammed the door in his face beyond pissed lets just say i saw red.  For me its about this is my home call me and I/we will let you know if you are welcome and FIL just thought I am his father I don't have to list.  When infact he does.    I never do surprise visits even to my bff or my own mother and I equally hate when my mother has done them to me in the past.  She is a quick learner she now call.

I also agree best to stay out of the money situation.  Is it wrong that he didn't pay you rent?  Of course it is but it still doesn't make it your buisness what he is doing outside your house is should not be between the two of you. I'd be thankful I got rid of him lol.

Hope your doing well
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 06:19:32 PM
Hi Sissy and Alohomora,  In hindsight I completely agree.  You've no idea how much I wish I didn't return.  I didn't want to be invited in,  I didn't want to chat.  I just wanted to give him the book.  I imagined he would say "Thank you, Momma", perhaps another hug and that would have been the end of it.  I guess I was pushing it.  Funny, but hubby said the said thing after the fact.  He did say not to bother before, but I didn't think because he thought there would be an ugly scene. He said DS didn't deserve a gift.  I truly did not know that was the reaction I would get.  I like peace. I am new to this.  I mean for a year they lived in my home up until two weeks ago. I didn't imagine I couldn't ring the bell to give my son a gift.

I don't see us ever having a relationship.  Not even years from now. 

Hi Keys Girl-  you made some great points.  I think I should have listened to hubby and not allowed him to come back when he fell on hard times, but I didn't know how. I thought family was always suppose to look out for each other. I thought he needed me and I didn't know how to turn him away.  At that time I didn't want to. 
Irresponsible is right.  We allowed him to get on our car insurance so that he would have a much cheaper rate.  He messed us up very bad, with speeding, parking tickets, and careless accidents.  Thus, they have given us to the 12th of this month to get him off or our policy will DOUBLE!  We are paycheck to paycheck people and have no extra.  If we move to another company we'll still be paying more. He's had almost three months to find his own car insurance. We even offered to help with the first payments. He has not done it and when hubby asked him about it tonight, he pretty much said he'd do it when he felt like it (or if he felt like it) and it was because I went over and upset his GF.  I asked hubby did you just tell him all I wanted to do was give him a gift?  Hubby said that he didn't want to upset him more.

So now my 22 yr old son is power playing us.  At this point I don't care about us having a relationship.  I just want him to get his own insurance and forget he had a mother.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: SassyDI on May 03, 2011, 06:48:02 PM
Quote from: themuffin on May 03, 2011, 06:19:32 PM
Hi Sissy and Alohomora,  In hindsight I completely agree.  You've no idea how much I wish I didn't return.  I didn't want to be invited in,  I didn't want to chat.  I just wanted to give him the book.  I imagined he would say "Thank you, Momma", perhaps another hug and that would have been the end of it.  I guess I was pushing it.  Funny, but hubby said the said thing after the fact.  He did say not to bother before, but I didn't think because he thought there would be an ugly scene. He said DS didn't deserve a gift.  I truly did not know that was the reaction I would get.  I like peace. I am new to this.  I mean for a year they lived in my home up until two weeks ago. I didn't imagine I couldn't ring the bell to give my son a gift.

I don't see us ever having a relationship.  Not even years from now. 

Hi Keys Girl-  you made some great points.  I think I should have listened to hubby and not allowed him to come back when he fell on hard times, but I didn't know how. I thought family was always suppose to look out for each other. I thought he needed me and I didn't know how to turn him away.  At that time I didn't want to. 
Irresponsible is right.  We allowed him to get on our car insurance so that he would have a much cheaper rate.  He messed us up very bad, with speeding, parking tickets, and careless accidents.  Thus, they have given us to the 12th of this month to get him off or our policy will DOUBLE!  We are paycheck to paycheck people and have no extra.  If we move to another company we'll still be paying more. He's had almost three months to find his own car insurance. We even offered to help with the first payments. He has not done it and when hubby asked him about it tonight, he pretty much said he'd do it when he felt like it (or if he felt like it) and it was because I went over and upset his GF.  I asked hubby did you just tell him all I wanted to do was give him a gift?  Hubby said that he didn't want to upset him more.

So now my 22 yr old son is power playing us.  At this point I don't care about us having a relationship.  I just want him to get his own insurance and forget he had a mother.

I don't think you really mean that last line I hear a lot of hurt and angier more then anything.  And don't get me wrong you have every right but no matter what a son does a mother never truely loses love for their child.  Worrying about him getting insurance proves you still care.  But you need to just drop him and let him deal with it.  Its on him if he doesn't have insurance.  DOn't mention it again just let it the insurance drop after all he and adult.  And take back the gift or sell it on ebay. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 06:59:43 PM
Muffin,

As hard as it is, I think you need to allow DS to "fail" now. Take him off your insurance. It is his responsibility to get more. If he doesn't HE will be the one who ends up paying the consequences. It isn't your job to be his caretaker anymore.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 03, 2011, 07:06:59 PM
I would have a hard time cutting my child off my insurance for one reason only: if you get caught driving without insurance, some states put you in jail. I'd be hardpressed to find a mom that wouldn't bail her child out of jail if the unthinkable occurred, particularly over something like insurance (versus domestic abuse, drug trafficking, etc.). I don't think I could resist bailing my child out, so essentially, they wouldn't be facing the consequences at all, without my intervention.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 07:14:15 PM
Yeah, I dunno, tough call.  I do know that in some states everyone living together has to be on the same insurance policy.  I think that's about the right time frame for kids to start taking care of their own.  I think if I get to that point where my child is facing jail for not following the most normal of laws -- we got bigger problems.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: SassyDI on May 03, 2011, 07:17:04 PM
Quote from: Holly on May 03, 2011, 07:06:59 PM
I would have a hard time cutting my child off my insurance for one reason only: if you get caught driving without insurance, some states put you in jail. I'd be hardpressed to find a mom that wouldn't bail her child out of jail if the unthinkable occurred, particularly over something like insurance (versus domestic abuse, drug trafficking, etc.). I don't think I could resist bailing my child out, so essentially, they wouldn't be facing the consequences at all, without my intervention.

See and this type of thinking is what drives the DIL/SIL insane when your stepping in so your adult child doesn't fail.  I can see help them out of a crisis but if your grown son doesn't want to buy insurance and lands in jail.  Then guess what his dumb butt(Can't say the word I want ) deserves to be in jail.  And buy continuing to pay because he won't do it only mean he is holding your emotionally hostaige and not learning a thing.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 03, 2011, 07:31:55 PM
I don't have a DIL or a SIL, so I'm not worried about driving one insane...I'm also not sure I'd be worried if I did have one and my child needed bailing out. It's not about the DIL/SIL at that time...it's about a person in jail.  20 year olds are notorious for letting their insurance lapse for a little bit b/c they're taking a "risk" and would rather make the cell phone payment. I would think a trip to jail (do not pass go, do not collect $200), even with mom and dad bailing them out would be a good hard lessoned learned. Someone will need to bail them out eventually, and an insurance lapse, while dangerous, seems like a minor infraction when compared with DWI, theft, etc.

If my kid is in jail...the failure has already happened...people in jail generally need bailing out by someone. Maybe I look at it different, I was scared straight for merely being questioned by police for theft after I sent 15 pizzas from 5 different pizza places to my girlfriend's house. I really don't think I did a lot wrong, but for 15 seconds, I thought my entire life was over. I was going to need someone's help to get out of it...I didn't have enough money to pay back the pizza joints. So...I had to call mom and dad. I was then doing chores for a VERY long time to pay that money back...I was 19. I see an insurance lapse as the same thing.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: SassyDI on May 03, 2011, 07:41:09 PM
Quote from: Holly on May 03, 2011, 07:31:55 PM
I don't have a DIL or a SIL, so I'm not worried about driving one insane...I'm also not sure I'd be worried if I did have one and my child needed bailing out. It's not about the DIL/SIL at that time...it's about a person in jail.  20 year olds are notorious for letting their insurance lapse for a little bit b/c they're taking a "risk" and would rather make the cell phone payment. I would think a trip to jail (do not pass go, do not collect $200), even with mom and dad bailing them out would be a good hard lessoned learned. Someone will need to bail them out eventually, and an insurance lapse, while dangerous, seems like a minor infraction when compared with DWI, theft, etc.

If my kid is in jail...the failure has already happened...people in jail generally need bailing out by someone. Maybe I look at it different, I was scared straight for merely being questioned by police for theft after I sent 15 pizzas from 5 different pizza places to my girlfriend's house. I really don't think I did a lot wrong, but for 15 seconds, I thought my entire life was over. I was going to need someone's help to get out of it...I didn't have enough money to pay back the pizza joints. So...I had to call mom and dad. I was then doing chores for a VERY long time to pay that money back...I was 19. I see an insurance lapse as the same thing.

But all your doing is making yourself feel better and nothing else.  I can't stand the my poor baby thing with grown adults.  The way my FIL wife talk about her children you would think they were children.  They are like 12 years older then me.  Its kind of creepy.  And if they are married its not up to you anymore.  Sorry but if I need bailing out of jail its up to my hubby not my mother.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 03, 2011, 08:00:04 PM
SassyDI,

Let's square a few things: I would never bail my child out to make myself feel better. I would never bail my child out when their spouse would not. I don't look at my child and think "poor baby..." not even now, and she IS a baby.

I was talking about a completely hypothetical situation, where a single "young and dumb" kid makes one honest mistake, like forgetting to pay their insurance bill for the month. It happens. Kids do get arrested for that when they get pulled over from time to time. There IS a way to help and be firm at the same time.



Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: SassyDI on May 03, 2011, 08:08:30 PM
Quote from: Holly on May 03, 2011, 08:00:04 PM
SassyDI,

Let's square a few things: I would never bail my child out to make myself feel better. I would never bail my child out when their spouse would not. I don't look at my child and think "poor baby..." not even now, and she IS a baby.

I was talking about a completely hypothetical situation, where a single "young and dumb" kid makes one honest mistake, like forgetting to pay their insurance bill for the month. It happens. Kids do get arrested for that when they get pulled over from time to time. There IS a way to help and be firm at the same time.

Ok but in this instance it wouldn't be him forgetting to pay a bill. OP said he said he is not getting insurance because he is mad at his parents.  He is stompping his feet like a two year old not a twenty two year old.  So if he went to jail its because he isn't getting his way.  And what if he then doesn't get insurance again and continues to stomp his feet then what?  Do you in time buy him insurance so he doesn't have to go back to jail?  I mean really when you choose the behaivor you choose the consquence. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: SassyDI on May 03, 2011, 08:09:53 PM
OP sorry for using your son in my example I should have made a general statement.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 03, 2011, 08:13:57 PM
That my original point, SassyDI,

Given the circumstance, *if* I were in any sort of situation where I was afraid to drop DD from my insurance b/c she wouldn't get her own insurance, I would make very certain that before I dropped her, I could totally make sure that when she calls to be bailed out, I would resist the urge to bail her out. Easier said than done, particularly when the inevitable happens. That takes a thick skin, that's all that I was saying.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 03, 2011, 08:17:00 PM
Hey, FWIW, I took pole-dancing lessons and they were awesome!  Great workout and very empowering!  Highly recommend for all women!

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 03, 2011, 08:19:39 PM
It sounds a lot more fun than those 10 lbs weights I strap to my legs on the way to work in the morning....
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 03, 2011, 08:24:17 PM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 03, 2011, 06:59:43 PM
Muffin,

As hard as it is, I think you need to allow DS to "fail" now. Take him off your insurance. It is his responsibility to get more. If he doesn't HE will be the one who ends up paying the consequences. It isn't your job to be his caretaker anymore.

The hardest thing I had to learn as a parent... "Say what you mean & mean what you say."  He knows he's put you in this bind, so it isn't coming as a shock.   It doesn't matter how old my dc get, that will remain a tough one for me. 

I read somewhere that dc will sometimes fight tooth & nail to keep from having to do something they sense is harder, like going out in to the real world to find a job, for example.  By fighting & laying guilt trips on you over the insurance, if you back down, ds doesn't have to get off the sofa.  It's the path of least resistance...  Do you remember our parents saying, "This is going to hurt me a lot more than it will you?"  It seems ds is counting on it.  Good luck Muffin...


Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 03, 2011, 08:29:03 PM
Was that your 15 minutes of fame, Holly?  I can't imagine you doing such a thing!  :)  I'm feeling better already, thanks.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 03, 2011, 08:30:34 PM
Hey, she stole my man.  ;)

We laugh about it now. It cost me $325.00.

If you're going to pull a prank like that...make it all plain and SMALL pizzas.

...and...block your number. Ooops.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: luise.volta on May 03, 2011, 08:39:35 PM
Here's a tru story for you. I got a call at 2:30 AM from the police that I was to come to the station regarding my son. I did. He and a friend, (I thought they were sleeping at his friend's house and his mom thought they were sleeping at our house,) had taken a bunch of cedar logs that had been donated to the Museum to be split for shakes for a new roof. They were going to sell them. They drove down an alley to pick the cedar up and didn't know that a store owner was sitting in his darkened store with a loaded shot gun because of recent thefts. He stepped out and held them in his sites and rang the alarm for the police, who arrived from each end of the alley, boxing the boys...(age 17) in.

The Chief of police (dead-pan) told my son that he had better select some other career because he didn't have the makings to become a successful criminal and added that he had never seen anything so dumb in his entire time on the force.  We didn't bail him out. He had to pay a fine, do community work and deal with a lockdown curfew.

Mortified, my son became an ordained minister instead.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 03, 2011, 08:40:21 PM
Quote from: Holly on May 03, 2011, 08:30:34 PM
Hey, she stole my man.  ;)

We laugh about it now. It cost me $325.00.

If you're going to pull a prank like that...make it all plain and SMALL pizzas.

...and...block your number. Ooops.

:D :D   Warning noted...  BF probably slept with his eyes open all night.  :o

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 03, 2011, 08:43:10 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on May 03, 2011, 08:39:35 PM
Mortified, my son became an ordained minister instead.

Scared straight!!!  :D  I bet he wasn't the only one mortified~
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 03, 2011, 08:47:58 PM
LOL, Luise. I don't think I could live a life of crime either.

No, Rose, I can't say I was very rational back then. I also hid in a tree all night one night so another girl could spy on her ex boyfriend. She wanted company in the tree. We got caught doing that too. And I wonder why I had to leave town to get married. 

DH got bailed out by his parents one night. He took the fall for his best friend for a drug paraphanalia charge. DH was speeding and got pulled over after curfew. His friend (in the passenger seat and of age, took the blame for speeding and took the ticket). At that exact same time, his paraphanilia fell out of his pocket. The cops said they had to take it and charge someone. DH felt so bad about them being there for his speeding that he took the blame, and despite passing the drug test, was charged anyway. I think his parents did the right thing in that instance, although they always say he should have let the friend fry. They never thought he should spend the night in jail for having a bleeding heart. LOL.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: luise.volta on May 03, 2011, 08:53:42 PM
My son became a very successful Youth Pastor and he told the kids...whatever you have done or are planning to do I've been there and done that, so don't write me off as Pastor Goody Twoshoes. It's just totally stupid and I have some other suggestions I'd like you to consider.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 03, 2011, 09:01:10 PM
Quote from: Holly on May 03, 2011, 08:47:58 PM
No, Rose, I can't say I was very rational back then. I also hid in a tree all night one night so another girl could spy on her ex boyfriend. She wanted company in the tree. We got caught doing that too. And I wonder why I had to leave town to get married. 

Lucy & Ethel~  ;D

DH got bailed out by his parents one night. He took the fall for his best friend for a drug paraphanalia charge. DH was speeding and got pulled over after curfew. His friend (in the passenger seat and of age, took the blame for speeding and took the ticket). At that exact same time, his paraphanilia fell out of his pocket. The cops said they had to take it and charge someone. DH felt so bad about them being there for his speeding that he took the blame, and despite passing the drug test, was charged anyway. I think his parents did the right thing in that instance, although they always say he should have let the friend fry. They never thought he should spend the night in jail for having a bleeding heart. LOL.

That's a tough one, not so easy to blow off...
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 03, 2011, 09:04:20 PM
They certainly taught their son to stand by his principles if nothing else...lol.

You won't believe the extra paperwork we had to go through for the adoption for that. When we explain what happened (just as I did here), everyone rolls their eyes and asks..."Why would you ever do that?"

Would I have done it in his place, probably not...but the guy I married would still do that today.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 03, 2011, 09:32:31 PM
I understand Holly, dh & his bf, my db would probably do the same.  You wouldn't believe some of the things those two did!  When we first started dating, db warned me about dh, the steaker.  Db referred to me as, "my sister, the nun."  I laughed it off, till months later when I learned dh did actually flash his way out of their favorite bar, with db waiting at the curb...  They were constantly pulling pranks on one another.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Keys Girl on May 04, 2011, 01:20:16 AM
the muffin, regarding the car insurance, or anything else, if bills aren't paid, they aren't on the other person's priority list, if they aren't on the other person's list, they aren't on mine.  That extends to all bills, and responsibilities, as far as I'm concerned.  I've found it helpful to say "Is this on someone else's priority list? it's not my problem, and drive on". 

It's very easy to others to try to get us to take care of their priorities and they'll use guilt or whatever will work to motivate us (but only if we let them).  I have found that when I'm not devoting time to someone else's priority list then I have a lot more time for whatever is on mine.

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 04, 2011, 05:39:19 AM
Good Morning WW!!!

   Gosh, it's good to see that this thread is still going strong and loaded with such amazing thoughts and opinions. And we've mostly all been kind to each other.  I am so pleased.

   Although I didn't mention it last night a pole and some wine and cheese....and BEER!!! were sounding wonderful.   ;D

   Well, thanks for the advice about getting DS off the insurance, but we can't!  Believe you, me...we aren't trying to save him from failure.  At this point I think he needs to see if he will swim or sink without his family.  The reason he has power over us is because our insurance won't let us drop him unless we present proof that he has insurance elsewhere.  We have a great rate with our current insurance company because just like our credit record, or driving record is EXCELLENT.  Son has a bad driving record and credit record.  His rates are gonna be over the moon.  And no, I don't feel badly for him.  Hubby didn't want to put DS on insurance in first place.  Hubby mom didn't allow him on her insurance.  Hubby paid full price for a teenaged boy with no driving experience and he was responsible about it.  DS at the time was working, and paying for college.  I was proud of him and thought I was being a helpful, supportive parent by allowing him to save so much.  BTW, I wouldn't bail son out of jail.  I would let him call his "Future" so she could bail him out.

   Luise, Love that true story.  Especially the last line.....Ordained Minister!  Talk about a smart young man you learns from his mistakes...and takes it to a higher level! ;D

   Holly, you sound like a lot of fun.  You made me think of this joke:

1. When you are sad -- I will jump on the person who made you sad like a spider monkey.

2. When you are blue -- I will try to dislodge whatever is choking you..

3. When you smile -- I will know you are plotting something that I must be involved in.

4. When you are scared -- I will rag on you about it every chance I get.

5. When you are worried -- I will tell you horrible stories about how much Worse it could be until you quit whining.

6. When you are confused -- I will use little words.

7. When you are sick -- Stay away from me until you are well Again. I don't want whatever you have.

8. When you fall -- I will point and laugh at your clumsiness....

9. This is my oath.... I pledge it to the end. 'Why?' you may ask; 'because you are my friend'.

Friendship is like peeing your pants, everyone can see it, But only you can feel the true warmth.

Send this to your closest friends, Then get depressed because you can only think of a few.

   I hope it was okay to post that, if not , I apologize in advance. 


Hugs WWU!!!

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 04, 2011, 05:59:27 AM
That was funny! I totally just stole it lol.... Ut oh, Now as my SIL says "Everything in my house is stolen!" ROFL!
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: LaurieS on May 04, 2011, 06:27:45 AM
Your son and his gf sound like two people who have obtained a little dose of power in their lives and don't know how to properly handle it.  Instead of doing something positive in order to  better their lives and relationships they are out to show the world that they stand united and are willing to attack anyone who dares to penetrate their little bubble. They will most likely turn on each other eventually as this is all they will have left.  The sad part is, anger, hurt, hatred is all their relationship may be based on.  We've all witnessed couples who live their lives like this, they just end up missing out on what life if really about.

I hope your other two son's make the conscience decision to live happier more fulfilling lives...those are the relationships that are worth investing time and energy into... Saddest part...one day your oldest will look at what use to be his family and wonder why you all changed so much and left him out of the mix.

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: SassyDI on May 04, 2011, 06:31:00 AM
Then I would be taking him to court then sorry I know so mean but your insurance is about to double and that is not something you should be paying for. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 04, 2011, 06:54:34 AM
Muffin,

They will not even take a termination on him to take him off at the end of the current month?  My gosh, I've never heard of that...that seems like it shouldn't be legal (for these very reasons).  I would understand if you tried to do it retroactively and say that he left 2 months ago and you need them to retro it back to then, but this?  That's awful.  Is that the law in your state?  I'd be calling the department of insurance!  What state do you live in...of course, don't answer if you aren't comfortable with that!
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 04, 2011, 07:06:09 AM
The insurance laws are insane...it's the same as creidt card cosigning and business credit cards. Once you're  on the hook for someone else's mess...just try getting yourself out of it. It's so frustrating. MIL thought we needed help boosting our credit (I have always been *A* paper on credit, as has my husband). She decided to put us on her business card without our permission.

Came time to buy a house...hmm...my credit rating dropped...AND I needed a letter explaining why the $15,000 in credit card debt our name was now tied to was not really my own. In the end, we had to get approved for our second choice house b/c of that credit card. We have begged them to shut down the card and start anew, but it's  be to no avail. We have also had her call AMEX (as well as have called ourselves) and that's been to no avail. Next step, we're getting a lawyer involved.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 04, 2011, 07:11:25 AM
My gosh, that is crazy.  I work in the insurance industry- but it is health insurance, which is apparently way different!  What a mess.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: pam1 on May 04, 2011, 07:12:14 AM
Quote from: Laurie on May 04, 2011, 06:27:45 AM
Your son and his gf sound like two people who have obtained a little dose of power in their lives and don't know how to properly handle it.  Instead of doing something positive in order to  better their lives and relationships they are out to show the world that they stand united and are willing to attack anyone who dares to penetrate their little bubble. They will most likely turn on each other eventually as this is all they will have left.  The sad part is, anger, hurt, hatred is all their relationship may be based on.  We've all witnessed couples who live their lives like this, they just end up missing out on what life if really about.

I hope your other two son's make the conscience decision to live happier more fulfilling lives...those are the relationships that are worth investing time and energy into... Saddest part...one day your oldest will look at what use to be his family and wonder why you all changed so much and left him out of the mix.

"it's true...it's true!" *i am bouncing up and down*
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 07:22:07 AM
Wow...  Muffin could you open a new policy for ds & drop out after the 1st month?    Then again, with a bad record, he may be denied altogether.  Gosh, that's so unfair.


Holly, is it because there's a balance on the card?  If so, maybe your Mom could move it to a new 0% transfer account?  (if they still exist)
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 04, 2011, 07:28:25 AM
She refused to do that. I guess business credit cards are hard to get approved. She said we should trust her judgment and trust that she'll make payments on time. I suppose if I stole said credit card and maxed it out and then refused to make payments myself...she'd be coming after me in a lawsuit.

But, this is the same woman who has taken out a life insurance policy on my DD without my permission. I realize it has a cash value after awhile, but it's like $500 at that. She's already said several times that money is for her to use as she sees fit should anything happen to DD. I better stop, I feel like getting sick.

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 04, 2011, 07:47:43 AM
Great news!  I just saved a whole bunch of money on my car insurance!!! ;D  I just took away DS's power.  I went to another company and got a rate that's only $15 more than if we got Jr. off.  For peace of mind $15 is pretty cheap!!! ;D

Sassy, I was thinking the court route too.  I'm so glad it doesn't have to go there.

Hey Laurie!!! 

As so many others on this forum understand, I just don't know why my DS has so much resentment toward me.  It can't be becaue of FDIL because he saw how well I treated her when she lived with us.  Even after I told him that they had to leave I didn't imagine how evil she would turn toward me.  It wasn't like she couldn't go home.  I don't know what her current relationship is with her mother, but it was good enough for her to be able to stay with them until she could make other arrangements. You are right about their relationship as well.  But there's even more to it.  He feels an obligation to her because he owes her so much money.  She uses this debt as a noose around his neck, always reminding him of how she came to his financial rescue.  It's almost as if she owns him.  It is a sad situation and I can't believe of all of my sons he's the one that has turned against me.  I thought we were so close, even with the lies and stealing.  I don't remember if I told you guys, but we took him to therapy for that and the therapist said he felt no remorse, but a feeling of entitlement.

;D ;D  LOL Pam, that cracked me up!!! 

Whoa, Holly!!!!  That is seriously messed up!!!  That was so wrong of her.  And the laws about that are strict.  I don't think even she could removed you if she wanted to.  My sister was on an account with me and she was the only one using the card.  I wanted off but they wouldn't let me or her remove my name .  I can't believe she won't do a balance transfer.  That is so WRONG!!  So sorry she has done those things.

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 04, 2011, 07:54:47 AM
Sorry OW (Not other woman, lol)  I forgot to answer.  I'm in New York.  According to my insurance company the law prevents them from removing him from our policy although our record is excellent and they would like to retain us as customers. I explained the whole ugly situation and still they could do nothing.  A neighbor who said that his ex wife put him thru the same thing told us he was forced to steal her plates and mail them in before they would remove her.

Hubby actually considered it.  I could just see DS calling the cops now telling them how hubby robbed him and FDIL bouncing up and down saying "it's true..it's true."
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 04, 2011, 07:58:55 AM
Pam, you are too much! LOL

I'm glad you are able to go another route, Muffin! That's wonderful.

Holly, That's insane! My MIL did the same thing to DH. When he was younger, and by younger I mean under the legal contract age, she took out a home equity line and had him as a co-signor. EXCUSE ME! That is a No, No, Missy *hand on hip waving other hand* LOL... DH found out shortly after that and he has been removed from said LOC. Although, when he started his business he borrowed money from mommy. I soooo wish I had been in his life then. I would have told him what a BAD idea it is to borrow money from family. She will finally be paid off June of next year (Although quite frankly I think she was paid off August of last year, but her record-keeping skills are horrible. As an accountant, I do not approve! lol)
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 04, 2011, 08:00:44 AM
That is GREAT news, muffin!!!  Are you going to tell him, or send him a letter that explains the policy is cancelled?
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 04, 2011, 08:06:32 AM
THANKS!  Nope, can't tell him even if I wanted to because he's not talking to me, (and btw, I don't wanna!).  He knows when the policy is going to expire so I feel no guilt on my part.  We asked him to do this many weeks ago. 

He's so angry with me that I truly felt he would let our policy lapse and get his own insurace only after he messed us up.  Now we don't have to depend on him. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: pam1 on May 04, 2011, 08:11:43 AM
Quote from: themuffin on May 04, 2011, 08:06:32 AM
THANKS!  Nope, can't tell him even if I wanted to because he's not talking to me, (and btw, I don't wanna!).  He knows when the policy is going to expire so I feel no guilt on my part.  We asked him to do this many weeks ago. 

He's so angry with me that I truly felt he would let our policy lapse and get his own insurace only after he messed us up.  Now we don't have to depend on him.

Good :)

He's going to have to learn the hard way that it is no fun being bought.  Look at it this way, at least he'll learn now.  I've got two sibling in laws who still haven't picked up on it in their 40's  ::) 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: overwhelmed123 on May 04, 2011, 08:12:50 AM
Well..if he was made aware when it was going to expire...then I guess he'll have to learn a tough lesson!
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 08:13:28 AM
Quote from: Laurie on May 04, 2011, 06:27:45 AM
Your son and his gf sound like two people who have obtained a little dose of power in their lives and don't know how to properly handle it.  Instead of doing something positive in order to  better their lives and relationships they are out to show the world that they stand united and are willing to attack anyone who dares to penetrate their little bubble.

I read this to dh.  He agreed that it's an accurate description of dd.  It explains a lot – the prom, why I never got a campus tour, why she didn't wait for me to shop for her wedding dress, why things happened when both gc were born, why she resented my keeping ogs those 2 years (but hey, it was a freebie), why I'm never asked over, & why she very rarely visits us.  I was thinking more in terms of immaturity, insecurity, & jealousy...or maybe it's a little of each.

Saddest part...one day your oldest will look at what use to be his family and wonder why you all changed so much and left him out of the mix.

This was why I felt low yesterday.  Dd's last cut was the deepest.  Though she's thrown crumbs my way recently, I'm realizing how much I've changed.  I'm becoming apathetic where dd is concerned.  It doesn't feel like it's a change for the better.  It's not me.  It certainly is a long stretch from the gal who said she'd go to the ends of the earth for her babes...  I really resent dd for putting me in this position.

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 04, 2011, 08:21:47 AM
I am sorry Rose, I wish we could somehow not allow ourselves to be affected by others...but it is just near impossible...even for an introvert like me.

Muffin...congrats! I am glad that you are able to "legally" step back as you'd like to do now.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 08:27:01 AM
Well, it least it helps to explain a few things.  It'll pass, I'm going through the withdrawal phase since stepping back at the 1st of the year.   :o

Muffin, I know how tough it must be to cut ds off the ins.  I hope he's a fast learner for your sake, as well as his own.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 04, 2011, 08:27:09 AM
Quote from: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 08:13:28 AM
Quote from: Laurie on May 04, 2011, 06:27:45 AM
Your son and his gf sound like two people who have obtained a little dose of power in their lives and don't know how to properly handle it.  Instead of doing something positive in order to  better their lives and relationships they are out to show the world that they stand united and are willing to attack anyone who dares to penetrate their little bubble.

I read this to dh.  He agreed that it's an accurate description of dd.  It explains a lot – the prom, why I never got a campus tour, why she didn't wait for me to shop for her wedding dress, why things happened when both gc were born, why she resented my keeping ogs those 2 years (but hey, it was a freebie), why I'm never asked over, & why she very rarely visits us.  I was thinking more in terms of immaturity, insecurity, & jealousy...or maybe it's a little of each.

Saddest part...one day your oldest will look at what use to be his family and wonder why you all changed so much and left him out of the mix.

This was why I felt low yesterday.  Dd's last cut was the deepest.  Though she's thrown crumbs my way recently, I'm realizing how much I've changed.  I'm becoming apathetic where dd is concerned.  It doesn't feel like it's a change for the better.  It's not me.  It certainly is a long stretch from the gal who said she'd go to the ends of the earth for her babes...  I really resent dd for putting me in this position.

Rose, I can really relate to what you are saying.  I don't know if it will pass, but I don't feel any great sadness at the "loss" of my DS.  Now that this car insurance thing is almost behind us I don't care if we don't speak anymore.  I remember when he was a teenager sometimes he seemed so sad that I wondered if he ever thought of suicide.  I remember talking to him about suicide and telling him (and meaning it) that if he ever died I would die to.  "So if you ever kill yourself, you should know that I'll be right behind you, okay".  Today, I don't care if he moves to the other end of the earth.  Still don't wish him unhappiness, but it sorta feels like my son has died.  I do take comfort in knowing he's not actually dead, but to my heart he's gone.  That stranger that stood by FDIL was not my son.

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 08:36:15 AM
Quote from: Holly on May 04, 2011, 08:21:47 AM
...even for an introvert like me.

Hi Holly, my name is Rose; it's a pleasure to meet you.   :)
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Pen on May 04, 2011, 08:42:00 AM
Rose799, I'm coming in a bit late, sorry. I hope you're feeling better today. {{{hugs}}}

Muffin, good job! My BFF's DS was the same age, same scenario minus the live-in FDIL. DS was acting like an ungrateful, rude, entitled jerk instead of the considerate, loving (although a bit spoiled) son he'd been (long story on his upbringing.) BFF had to cut him off from her car & med ins and that's what kicked him into responsibility mode. He's doing well now, paying his bills and attending college.

Even if you never speak w/him again (& chances are you will, IMHO) you will be at peace knowing he's handling his issues like an adult. That's what most of us want for our kids, isn't it? We hope our relationship will continue into adulthood but mostly we want them to be happy, responsible, productive citizens. You've done your job.

These estranged adult children seem to be choosing to be adults we don't recognize right now, whether influenced by a mate or not. I've felt that "death-not-dead" feeling about my DS too. ...and I know how that can hurt but as you said, Muffin, it helps you detach...I wish none of us had to go through this. There wasn't a chapter at the end of the baby & child-rearing books I read about this...we're often caught completely by surprise.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: justus on May 04, 2011, 08:44:59 AM
That is good new Muffin. I took our kids off of health insurance last year and felt really guilty about it. It was an extra $600 a month, they were both over 21 and had access to insurance for themselves, and it was just time. I gave them plenty of warning, and just did it. I still worry that something will happen to them, because DS's situation changed and he couldn't afford it, but now he can and DD has Grad. student insurance which isn't very good. I don't feel guilty about it anymore.

Grace, I am beyond apathy with my SM. I still love her, and will do whatever she needs, withing reason, but I don't expect anything from her and accept whatever she gives me. I am the stand in mother who she pulls out of the locked closet when her own mother fails her. I don't, however, accept abuse. I finally got to the point where I understood that it wasn't about me and there was nothing I could do to change things. This was all about her, and she would probably always be like this, which was no reflection on me, but on her, her poor coping strategies, her entitlement issues, and her mother's abuse. Given I can't change her, I decided on boundaries I could live with, and I totally lowered my expectations of her. She knows she can count on me and I know I can't count on her. Somehow, knowing that what I do for her is totally my choice, and I do it without expecting anything in return makes things a lot easier. That isn't to say I don't get upset with her or that I am not occasionally hurt, but those times are brief instead of taking up loads of my energy, and time and impacting my relationship with DH. I can only control me, so I do what can in that department.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 08:48:42 AM
Quote from: themuffin on May 04, 2011, 08:27:09 AM
Rose, I can really relate to what you are saying.  I don't know if it will pass, but I don't feel any great sadness at the "loss" of my DS.  Now that this car insurance thing is almost behind us I don't care if we don't speak anymore.  I remember when he was a teenager sometimes he seemed so sad that I wondered if he ever thought of suicide.  I remember talking to him about suicide and telling him (and meaning it) that if he ever died I would die to.  "So if you ever kill yourself, you should know that I'll be right behind you, okay".  Today, I don't care if he moves to the other end of the earth.  Still don't wish him unhappiness, but it sorta feels like my son has died.  I do take comfort in knowing he's not actually dead, but to my heart he's gone.  That stranger that stood by FDIL was not my son.
[/quote]

I can only imagine what you've been through with ds.  I've been a work in progress for about 15 years.  ;)   With many thanks to WWU, I can now say my cup is more than half full.  This is a new day...onward & upward, Muffin. 


Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 09:14:21 AM
Quote from: justus on May 04, 2011, 08:44:59 AM
I totally lowered my expectations of her. She knows she can count on me and I know I can't count on her. Somehow, knowing that what I do for her is totally my choice, and I do it without expecting anything in return makes things a lot easier. That isn't to say I don't get upset with her or that I am not occasionally hurt, but those times are brief instead of taking up loads of my energy, and time and impacting my relationship with DH. I can only control me, so I do what can in that department.

I've let go of expectations.  But I felt guilty, as though I was giving up on her.  I hear what you all are saying.  Dd is flying solo & doing a fine job at it.  You're right Pen, that was the main goal...  Yes, I do feel better, thanks to you all. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 09:22:26 AM
Thanks for sharing, Justus, it really helps to know I'm not alone...  I've been feeling like the weird duck~ 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 04, 2011, 09:30:24 AM
Quote from: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 09:14:21 AM
Quote from: justus on May 04, 2011, 08:44:59 AM
I totally lowered my expectations of her. She knows she can count on me and I know I can't count on her. Somehow, knowing that what I do for her is totally my choice, and I do it without expecting anything in return makes things a lot easier. That isn't to say I don't get upset with her or that I am not occasionally hurt, but those times are brief instead of taking up loads of my energy, and time and impacting my relationship with DH. I can only control me, so I do what can in that department.

I've let go of expectations.  But I felt guilty, as though I was giving up on her.  I hear what you all are saying.  Dd is flying solo & doing a fine job at it.  You're right Pen, that was the main goal...  Yes, I do feel better, thanks to you all. 


I think that's great Justus. I also have lowered expectations of my son (I don't have any), but I don't expect him to count on me either.  I know that's probably a bad parent thing to say.  But if this continues on its present path, I can't imagine that he could come to me for anything short of death, that I would help him with.  Perhaps, just maybe I would bail him out of jail, but that's because I work in Corrections and I know those horrible jail stories are true.  Other than that I wouldn't help him.  If ever he should find himself homeless, he will remain so if he thinks he's ever coming here.  I don't ever want to live with a thief again.

When I think of FDIL I wonder if she's really thought of the character of DS.  Sure her ego is stroked that he chose to defend her over his mother.  But I can't help but to wonder why she's not a bit concerned that if he treats his own family this way, what would he do to her?  I would be a bit weary of a man like that.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 09:32:25 AM
Oh my, Holly...  Do you think maybe it could be dealt with through small claims court?  It's not like you're asking a lot to have your names removed from the account.   For someone who cries as she does, I'm amazed she can be that bold. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 04, 2011, 09:34:07 AM
I think that it is honorable and admirable for a husband to stick up for his wife. Especially to his family. However, I think it is more honarable and admirable for a husband to tell his wife when she is wrong. DH has no problem with either. Nor do I.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 09:39:35 AM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 04, 2011, 09:34:07 AM
I think that it is honorable and admirable for a husband to stick up for his wife. Especially to his family. However, I think it is more honarable and admirable for a husband to tell his wife when she is wrong. DH has no problem with either. Nor do I.

In the movie, Immediate Family, Glenn Close & dh, James Woods were trying to adopt a baby.  I like the part where she said they have a rule that only one of them can be crazy at a time.  Thank goodness, it's worked out that way with dh & I.  I'm in a crazy phase right now.  My poor dh...  It's a great movie, if you haven't seen it. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 04, 2011, 09:39:58 AM
I don't know. I get frustrated b/c DH and I have never asked MIL to be on the hook for our debt/mistakes/money issues or whatever. So I am not sure why she thought she was doing us any favors.

She says its not her fault the credit card companies aren't fair. Which, it isn't, but that's exactly the reason why I had my dad cosign for TWO months and then refinanced my car when I was 18. I needed his help establishing credit, and then once I had some credit established, I made sure his name was off of my car loan. It cost me the processing fees, but the peace of mind I got was tremendous.

All she needs to do is a balance transfer and then close that account. It's asking the world.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 09:47:48 AM
Quote from: Holly on May 04, 2011, 09:39:58 AM
She says its not her fault the credit card companies aren't fair.

No, but it's her fault your names are on the account.  Isn't there a word for that?  Fraud? 

I opened a savings account for dh & I once, but couldn't close it without him either going with me to the bank, or faxing his signature with a copy of his driver's license.  It was out of state & there was only $15 left in it. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 04, 2011, 09:48:11 AM
I agree ADIL.  I would have so understood if DS had said, "Mom, you really should not have come and please do not come again."  And to FDIL, "I understand you are upset, but she is my mother. Please next time just call me to the door." 
As his mother I deserved that much.  Even if he told me to leave and not come back. 

Holly,  would it cause more harm than good if you and DH sat and talked about this with MIL?  From that situation alone, I can SOOOO understand why you are here.  I just can't imagine doing something like that to anyone, especially someone I love, and than use the word "fair".   That's just wrong and selfish on so many levels.  And she knows she wasn't doing you any favors.  If she truly wanted to help you she would simply transfer the balance.

I love that movie, Rose!! But it's been a long time.  Better watch it again! ;D
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 04, 2011, 09:56:25 AM
We've been talking about it for 2 years come December. She cries and says she is hurt that we would suggest she isn't responsible with money. (Which we've never done that...she's very good with her money). She also says that she interprets our desire to be removed from the account as our way of shunning their successful business.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 10:01:53 AM
Quote from: Holly on May 04, 2011, 09:56:25 AM
We've been talking about it for 2 years come December. She cries and says she is hurt that we would suggest she isn't responsible with money. (Which we've never done that...she's very good with her money). She also says that she interprets our desire to be removed from the account as our way of shunning their successful business.

Remember that book someone mentioned, "In Sheep's Clothing."  I haven't read it, but it's about dealing with manipulative people.  It might be helpful to you, Holly.  How does your fil feel about it?
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 04, 2011, 10:02:29 AM
Quote from: Holly on May 04, 2011, 09:56:25 AM
We've been talking about it for 2 years come December. She cries and says she is hurt that we would suggest she isn't responsible with money. (Which we've never done that...she's very good with her money). She also says that she interprets our desire to be removed from the account as our way of shunning their successful business.

Sorry Holly but the "good with her money part tickled me".  Sorry she's so manipulative.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 04, 2011, 10:04:41 AM
He has told her time and time again, "Whatever they ask, take care of it. Get it done." He believes a little too much in gender roles and he believes that handling that stuff is a woman's job. He agrees with us, but he woudn't take care of it himself...even though he's the CEO of the company and probably has a lot more clout than his accountant expert.

I'm not trying to be snarky. He sides with us, but he also feels that it isn't really his problem.

I am going to pick that book up.

Muffin, I didn't even notice I wrote that! LOL. Freudian slip, I suppose.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 10:05:37 AM
While you're at it, you might want to look for a book on Tazmanian Devils...   ;D
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 04, 2011, 10:13:17 AM
It sounds like you may have your hands full for a long time to come, Holly.  Your fil is stepping back so as to not get caught in the crossfire.  Wise man...  I think maybe you, being another woman, will have better luck getting through to her.  But it might be wise to read the book first. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: justus on May 04, 2011, 12:23:34 PM
I am glad I could help Rose. You are not the odd one. I think most people have issues with their grown children no matter how good the relationship. People are people.

Muffin, in your place, I would probably be the same way, but SD has never asked for anything unreasonable and has never taken advantage of us, well, since she became an adult that is. The problem lies with her psychotic treatment of me. Either I am her best friend, or I am dirt. She has gotten better of the years, and her M failed in her and GD in a huge way recently, so I don't think she is going to have the same loyalty issues she used to have, but I refuse to expect anymore of her than I have right now, because I will most likely be disappointed as I have been in the past. I will be golden until she makes up with her M. This, and she and DH are on good terms. She is his only child, and he will always be there for her. It is best for my M if I am also there for her, but with the caveat that what she needs/wants is reasonable.

At one point when she was planning on moving to a place I didn't want to live, she had DH convinced that we should move there, too and he started looking for jobs in the area. After a month of this, I sat him down and told him it was up to him and I to choose where we lived, not him and SD and if he wanted to move to that area, he could, but I wasn't going with him. Boy, he changed his mind on the subject pretty quick and he got the message that he was married to me, his first loyalty was to me, and any big decisions would be made by US, not him and SD, as SD's first loyalty was to her DH, etc.... He has pretty good boundaries, I just have to remind him of them sometimes.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 04, 2011, 12:32:53 PM
Justus- I like your hubby!!! ;D

Sometimes I'm torn about DS.  A part of me wants them to live happily ever after.  I don't want them to have any issues for which he'll ever have to turn to me.  And at the same time there is this part of me just waiting for him to fall on his face and see that he truly does need his family.  But heck, I can't even enjoy imaging that because it means he would have to turn to me.....geesh, I have to wrap my mind around what I want, lol.

"I'll take "Fall on His Face" for $200 Alex".
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: justus on May 04, 2011, 06:11:28 PM
Please don't pick "Fall on your Face." It was what I was rooting for with SD. I knew that moving closer to SD's M was a mistake for them, she knew it, we all knew it, but she had issues she really needed to work out with her M. They lived in her M's basement for a year, were totally miserable and it took SD that long to get more than a part time job that paid minimum wage while SIL worked in a box store. When they lived here, SIL had a job with benefits and a future and they owned a house. It has been a year and a half,  SIL finally has a decent job and they can now afford insurance. In the mean time, they found out that SD's half-sister had been sexually molesting GD. They suspect the girl's F of molesting her, and are glad they found out now because GD is approaching the age in which they think he began molesting the half-sister, which would have put GD in danger of being molested by him.

SD now says they should never have left. She knew in her gut it would turn out badly. I knew it would, too, and I have to say I secretly occasionally thought through this last year and a half that she was getting what she deserved, and I was angry at her at first about GD being molested, because she took GD into that messed up household. Her decision to move was selfish and not because of the family they left behind, but because her decision to leave was all about her and did not, even for a minute take SIL or GD into consideration except long enough to justify her decision. But, I would take it all back if GD would not have had to experience what she experienced. SD learned some really tough lessons, but I wish she could have learned them some other way.

So, take "He messes up and faces some pretty severe, but not fatal or scarring natural consequences that I will not rescue him from, then he grows up and starts taking responsibility for his own choices and comes to appreciate and respect me as a person, not just as his Mom" for $00.00.

So, be careful what you wish for.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Pen on May 04, 2011, 06:29:29 PM
Wow, Justus, I'm so sorry. You're right, we really don't want our adult kids to fail as a way to "get it." But sometimes we want a little justice and vindication. I have some work to do in that area  :P

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 05, 2011, 05:01:37 AM
Wow Justus- That is a terrible ordeal and I'm so sorry for all involved.  But that is NO WHERE close to what my post meant.  What you described is a devastating, life changing tragedy.   :'(

I understand where you are coming from and I appreciate your reply, but my post NEVER indicated that I wanted him to experience a tragedy.  My understanding of the term to "fall on your face" is to realize you made a big mistake, you screwed up, you tried your best but it didn't work out.  As I stated I have mixed emotions about DS right now.  A part of me wants him to just go on with his life and be happy, and part of me wants him to see that he made a big mistake when he discarded his family like trash.  But NO part of me wants him hurt in any way shape or form.

I am so, so sorry about what happened to your family.  Truly.  But that is no where close to what I was thinking.  Not even in my worst thoughts. 

I just wanted to clear that up so this thread doesn't head down the wrong road.

HUGS WW
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: justus on May 05, 2011, 05:49:19 AM
Muffin, I didn't think that was what you meant, I certainly didn't want anything like that for SD or GD. I just expected SD, well, I am not sure what I expected, except that her relationship with her M would fall apart dramatically. Unfortunately GD had to get hurt for that to happen. I am just saying to be careful what you wish for because life will throw a lot more your way than you ever expected. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: LaurieS on May 05, 2011, 06:23:38 AM
Muff I don't think anyone was feeling that you were wishing anything harmful to happen to your son. 

I do agree with you, there is a time to step back and let the chips fall... sometimes we know there may be serious consequences but you can't run buffers for someone their entire life.  Once a child declares that he/she is an adult and moves away from home they are accepting (in my mind) responsibility for their own lives.  For some, the school of hard knocks is the only way they learn... actually I think it's how we all learn.  It's back to for every action there is a reaction and for every decision there is a consequence.  Some people just catch on a little easier... I wasn't a quick learner in school... I sure wasn't in life ... but... came out fine on the other end.  As long as we have the ability to support their decisions even when we don't fully agree oh and remembering not to point out the hard knocks that they felt.. this is where I always had difficulty, it was like I was saying.. yeah how did that bumpy road feel.  That part is a no-no.. still working on that one myself.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 05, 2011, 06:36:52 AM
))))))))))HUGS((((((( Justus

I know you never expected that.  And of course you didn't want that.  Never in your wildest dreams did you imagine or wish for something like that to happen.  And it didn't happened because you may have wished for the M to fail.  It's just one of those things that happen without rhyme or reason.

Although I haven't wished it or prayed on it, I will admit that I have fantasied about DS and FDIL having a fallout.  But simply because it's the only way I can imagine that we may ever unite again.  I know your thoughts were along those very lines as well.

Justus, you know something?  I don't believe in wishes.  If I did I would wish that none of this never happened.  Life does sometimes throw more your way than you ever imagined.  The thing is that sometimes I imagine the worst.  What is something happened (like death) to DS or myself and we haven't spoken?  I was always taught to never go to bed angry because you never knew if you weren't going to wake up.  And as it stands I am not speaking to my own son, who I love very much.  I get scared thinking that life is so unpredictable and short. 

"Ill take "United Family" for a $1,000, Alex"
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 05, 2011, 06:42:58 AM
Quote from: Laurie on May 05, 2011, 06:23:38 AM
Muff I don't think anyone was feeling that you were wishing anything harmful to happen to your son. 

I do agree with you, there is a time to step back and let the chips fall... sometimes we know there may be serious consequences but you can't run buffers for someone their entire life.  Once a child declares that he/she is an adult and moves away from home they are accepting (in my mind) responsibility for their own lives.  For some, the school of hard knocks is the only way they learn... actually I think it's how we all learn.  It's back to for every action there is a reaction and for every decision there is a consequence.  Some people just catch on a little easier... I wasn't a quick learner in school... I sure wasn't in life ... but... came out fine on the other end.  As long as we have the ability to support their decisions even when we don't fully agree oh and remembering not to point out the hard knocks that they felt.. this is where I always had difficulty, it was like I was saying.. yeah how did that bumpy road feel.  That part is a no-no.. still working on that one myself.

Thanks Laurie,

What you wrote is exactly the path that I want and plan to take.  It is what I am feeling about this situation.  I also, wasn't a quick learner.  It's strange but for the longest time, even though I know I was an adult by any means of the word, I didn't feel like one.  I don't know when I realized I was a "true" adult, but its only been a few years and I'm in my 40's.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that even now I feel as if I have so much still to learn. 
Oh, and I am very bad with the "I told you" so's.  I will have to work on that to, because already in my mind when I imagine DS I see me pointing out all the errors of his ways.  If we do unite I know I should not do that.  BUT IT WILL BE HARD!!! :P
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Keys Girl on May 05, 2011, 09:03:20 AM
themuffin, I'm happy that you were able to find an alternative policy and allow your son to be responsible for his own car insurance, and since you aren't on speaking, then I don't think there is any reason to notify him..........I have to say however that I would be very careful that he doesn't come to follow through on the "backback" scene.  My first thoughts were that he would "key" your car or damage it in retribution for you giving him the opportunity to act like an adult and be responsible for his own life.  I don't think he'll like it when he finds out that he isn't on the policy somehow and I would caution you to be on your guard.

Congratulations on protecting yourself first and letting him fend for himself.  It's hard to do that, we've held them in our arms since their first breath, so it's like no other bond on earth. 

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Pen on May 05, 2011, 09:19:42 AM
Quote from: Keys Girl on May 05, 2011, 09:03:20 AM
.... we've held them in our arms since their first breath, so it's like no other bond on earth.

Yup
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 05, 2011, 09:44:44 AM
Thanks KeysGirl-You know I'm not really worried about DS doing anything to us or the car, but it's not beyond FDIL.  She and her family brag about how they physically assault people who they feel have offended them.   Just around xmas time she was bragging about how she, sis and mom were going to beat the woman who is currently with the mom's ex.

I personally would never resort to fighting but that's how her family "settles" things.  And they happen to be very proud of it.  I'm not afraid of her, but I am watchful.

Quote from: Pen on May 05, 2011, 09:19:42 AM
Quote from: Keys Girl on May 05, 2011, 09:03:20 AM
.... we've held them in our arms since their first breath, so it's like no other bond on earth.

Yup

Ever see "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"?  I feel no bond to the man who looks like my son. I wish no harm to anyone in the world, and I wish no harm to "that man" either.  He can't be the baby that lived beneath my heart. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: LaurieS on May 05, 2011, 09:45:41 AM
There is a difference  between allowing your kids to venture out and make their own mistakes vs setting them up for a fall.. Muff I believe that you owe it to your son and all others driving on the highways with him that he no longer has insurance coverage.  If not on speaking terms, mail him the notice, taking him off the insurance without notification will prevent him from seeking out his own insurance and possibly set up a whole sequence of bad events.

Hey btw.. I emailed you.. did you get it, have not heard a response and it was kinda important.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 05, 2011, 09:47:39 AM
I'd mail it certified. I'd be covering my own and I would want a clear conscience.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: LaurieS on May 05, 2011, 09:48:13 AM
ok.. I was typing and working..  I left out a word but can no longer modify it.. I was attempting to say  you owe it to him and the rest of society to tell him that he has been removed from the policy
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 05, 2011, 09:53:02 AM
Hey Laurie,

   I haven't checked my email yet, but will do right now.  Will respond about DS in a min.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 05, 2011, 09:53:30 AM
Quote from: Holly on May 05, 2011, 09:47:39 AM
I'd mail it certified. I'd be covering my own and I would want a clear conscience.

Good idea, Holly...
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 05, 2011, 10:16:19 AM
I completely understand where you guys are coming from, but DS won't be blindsided.  He knows that on May 13th, the policy will expire.  We discussed this about two months ago when they first sent us the notice.  We have asked him repeatedly to get his own coverage.  Hubby went to his job just Tuesday (will never go to home where FDIL lives again) and told him that the policy is going to expire next week.  He asked him to please chose his new coverage.  Son said that he was waiting on some money and would do it next week.  Hubby said we'd give him the money for the first month now.  Son said he didn't want ANYTHING from us.  Then son said that "mom came over acting all nice and hugging and everything and then she comes back and pulls that blank".  Hubby said he wasn't there to discuss that and left because he didn't want to cause  conflict at his job.

So basically what DS is doing is power playing us.  He knows very well when the policy expires he's just either not going to do it, or going to wait until the very last minute to do it, so he can spite us.  He knows this policy cannot and will not be renewed with him on it.  He knows this is not a bluff.

DS is going to do what he wants to do.  I just found out on Monday that he has a criminal driving record, meaning he was caught driving with a suspended license.  He doesn't know we know.  YS got a ticket and must pay a fine because DS let him drive his car and the inspection ticket had expired.  DS told YS not to tell us. We stayed home unexpected one day and got the mail before they could.  DS said he'd take care of it.  Never did.  YS got a notice of intent to supsend his license. I assure you sending DS a certified letter telling him something he already knows is NOT going to make him do the responsible thing.  In fact, it may just make them both angrier.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 05, 2011, 10:51:00 AM
The letter has nothing to do with whether or not he does the responsible thing..if I were you, I'd be worried about other drivers. People wind up in court over the silliest things, and I'd be afraid of someone my child got into an accident with (thinking the worst here, hoping it doesn't happen), would drag me into court for negligence for dropping him from my insurance without telling him (meaning, nothing in writing). I wouldn't need that aggravation. It has nothing to do with him really, it has to do with protecting yourself. I don't think it'd be too far fetched for your son to just say he never knew he was going to be dropped, no matter how many times he was told. 

Is that unlikely? Yep. But, I've read court cases where it has happened...it'd be a bunch of extra grief I wouldn't need, no matter how successful my case would be in the end.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Keys Girl on May 05, 2011, 10:54:54 AM
themuffin, I would check with my lawyer and insurance company to make sure that you aren't held for any possible future liabilities regarding your son's knowledge of the insurance issues.  I'm a firm believer in a big paper trail when dealing with people like this, and I wouldn't assume that you might not be liable somehow without getting some advice from a professional.

Better safe than sorry.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 05, 2011, 10:56:26 AM
Excellent Point, Holly!

And being as he is fairly young, he probably doesn't have much if anything of his own for someone suing to go after.

I'd definitely advise the certified letter.... Maybe even certified return receipt.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 05, 2011, 11:17:07 AM
Awwww....  I finally get what you are saying.  DS is a big liar.  If busted for driving without insurance he could always say, "Mom and Dad dropped me and didn't tell me!"  Sending him a letter would be more for covering my butt in case DS does something dirty.

LADIES.....I LOVE YOU!!!!  Never crossed my mind until you brought it up!

THANKS!!!
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: MoonChild on May 05, 2011, 11:40:10 AM
Hello Muffin, I am so sorry to hear your state of affairs with your DS and FDIL. It is interesting how a parent's good intentions can actually, in turn, be perceived as an attack or threat of sorts. I am not sure of the chain of events that have played out and in turn gotten your family to the point of a break in your relationship but perhaps some of my experiences can help shed some light on your situation:
I will say that growing up my parents made sure that I had any opportunity that I wanted, they wanted me to be able to succeed in life, as any parent would want for their child. However when I made the decision to put college on hold our relationship became strained. I was so used to having them provide everything for me a place to live, food to eat, my own car, spending money, etc. Now they never took any of this away out right, but they did begin to limit things and they expected me to find a job and begin to pay my own credit card bills. They wanted me to learn the value of the money I was earning and to do this I had to fail, and I am so thankful they let me fall!
When I moved out it was hard for all of us, they didn't want me to leave and I didn't want to leave 'the good life', but I knew that if I didn't get out there on my own I never would and I would never be able to prove to them that I could make it on my own. When I would get into financial trouble I was always too scared to tell my parents for the fear of them being disappointed, or the thought of them thinking 'I told you so'. The only thing worse than an angry parent is a disappointed parent, at least in my mind. It took me over a year to get my finances in order and learn how to handle my money. I had to go through closing my credit cards, paying off my debts, having my phone turned off a couple of times, living without a car, the list of learning experiences goes on and on. Over time though I was able to establish a budget to meet my expenses and needs. 
Sometimes as children, especially spoiled children, when our parents provide everything for us we begin to just expect these things without a question, and then when they begin to take these things away we don't initially realize that they are trying to help us grow. Instead, at least in my experience, we begin to think things like 'why don't they love me anymore, am I not good enough anymore, etc'. In my situation, I was able to accept their decision to stop paying my bills when we all sat down and they verbalized their feelings on the entire situation and gave a clear explanation as to why they were doing this and the ways they would still like to help me to achieve my goals of living on my own, by helping me create a budget. When I began to prove to them that I was serious about everything we agreed to, that is when our relationship began to heal and grow on many new and different levels; now they were seeing that I was taking responsibility for my past, my present and my future. It is hard to see the ones we love fall but to see them climb and learn from their missteps is such a joy for all involved.
Keep the lines of communication open, even when my parents and I were in a rough patch they still made a point of inviting me to dinner every Sunday, for me it was their way of saying 'we love you, we understand that you want to be on your own but we are always here for you and you will always have a spot at the dinner table.' It is easy to cut someone off but it is so much harder to say 'I'm sorry'. Sometimes we have to fall to learn to grow and sometimes we have to let someone go so that they can come back.

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 05, 2011, 11:54:51 AM
I think there should be another Woodstock.  I'll start making reservations for ydd...    ;D ;D

I don't know your dp's, MoonChild, but I know they must be awfully proud of you!
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: MoonChild on May 05, 2011, 12:27:11 PM
I hope they are. As children, for me anyways, we want nothing more than for our parents to be proud of us and our accomplishments. And hearing those words 'we love you and we are so proud' is the only thing we want to hear. As one who is still trying to overcome my self-imposed pressure to 'be good' I will often doubt myself and become a bit depressed because I feel like I am not living up to my parents' expectations. I wonder if other children create false parental expectations in their own mind too that causes them unnecessary stress? When I vocalize my feelings to my parents they always make a point of assuring me that their only expectations of me are that they want me to be happy in life and then they tell me how proud they are and that they love me. Sometimes it is the simplest things we say that have the most profound impact, good and bad. If we all made a point of telling those we love that we love them and we did so everyday would that put everyone's fears of acceptance at bay and thus we may all have less conflict in our lives?

Wouldn't another Woodstock be wonderful; unfortunately the mainstream 'music' nowadays is a headache and all of the artists we loved from yesterday have almost all left us. And I am not sure if the youth of this new generation even appreciate real music, but that is just my opinion.
I was flabbergasted the other day when I was watching TV and they were doing an interview with a new 'artist' who is about my age (24) and when asked of who her influences were she stated something along the lines of: 'I am really influenced by a guy named Freddy Mercury, he was the lead singer of a band called Queen.' In my mind I was sitting there thinking who on earth needs an explanation as to who Freddy Mercury was?! He launched a music revolution that should have been a one word answer, QUEEN! No explanation needed.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 05, 2011, 12:33:23 PM
Moonchild,

I am very curious. Were you home-schooled by any chance?
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: MoonChild on May 05, 2011, 12:39:02 PM
No home school for me, I did go to a private Catholic school from K-12, the same school my Dad went to<3
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: lancaster lady on May 05, 2011, 12:39:17 PM
Well Radio GaGa to you too Moonchild !

you should write a book for all those young people , when they leave home for the first time !

I did all those things for my daughter you have just described , and you know , she said without me she wouldn't be the
strong individual confident person she is today . that was the best compliment she could ever make ...and of course
I cried !! lol
However , I am still bailing her out sometimes ....so maybe that compliment was her insurance ..lol
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: MoonChild on May 05, 2011, 12:51:11 PM
I would love to write a book about my experiences to share with others, but what I also have realized is that we really do have to make our own mistakes to learn from. We all have different backgrounds and different life experiences and those are what make us unique. How we choose to handle the situations life presents us is what helps us grow and learn who we are and who we want to be. We may not always make the right decision, but if we can recognize and accept our mistakes then we can overcome them the next time we are faced with a similar situation.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: luise.volta on May 05, 2011, 12:54:18 PM
I often wonder if there are any mistakes...but only "learnings" and redirection. Sending love...
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: MoonChild on May 05, 2011, 01:05:17 PM
Lan when you state that you bail her out are you speaking of financially? For me when it comes to finances, especially now understanding the value of my money and realizing how reckless I had been with my parents' I make a point that if my parents choose to help me financially (only if I ask first) we set up a payment plan that everyone is in agreement to so that way they do not feel like I am still relying on them and I do not feel dependent of them. This was my decision to ask to be able to reimburse them for assistance they have provided.

Luise you are correct, learning experiences and redirection, 'mistake' carries such a bad connotation. Perhaps the language we choose to use when describing situations can be unhealthy in that it may, without us realizing, be turning our simple statements into something else completely all because of the words we choose and how others perceive them.   
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: lancaster lady on May 05, 2011, 01:15:33 PM
Moonchild;
Yes financially , there is always a problem or other cropping up ....moving flats ...etc .
Being a uni student is a long hard slog , and debts do mount up .Now she is a graduate , but not yet in the job she would
like to be .
If it's a large amount then yes , she has to pay me back . Small amounts I let her away with , yes I know I shouldn't
but she is my youngest only DD .Her DB's I'm not so soft with .  That's moms for you , this one's a softie ...!
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: MoonChild on May 05, 2011, 01:38:03 PM
There is nothing wrong with being a softie. We tend to look at being 'soft' as a weakness but for me I think it just means that you have so much love you tend to let it cloud your vision. My parents would tease me that while eating dinner the dogs would always sit next to me because I was a 'sucker' for their cute begging puppy faces, and I would always retort that I was not a sucker I was a LOVER!
I am impressed with your daughter Lan, that takes a lot of time, effort and commitment. I wish her, you and all of the other wonderfully wise women here: hope and love in all of your lives<3
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: lancaster lady on May 05, 2011, 01:40:49 PM
 :) :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 05, 2011, 05:46:15 PM
Hey Guys,

Just got home, two hour commute!  Soon as I got settled I checked in here and I must say!!

I ADORE MOONCHILD!!!!

Oh, how I wish DS was just a fraction like you.  The situation with DS is complicated.  I try to analyze it but it doesn't make sense.  DS changed when we moved.  He was in his last year of HS.  We actually held off the move so he could graduate at his HS with his friends, but he didn't make the grade and had to do an additional year.  He seemed to adjust very well to the move. He was popular with girls and had guy friends.  He got his first car and he when he graduated HS he got a job and started college.  He seemed happy.  But...he had a curfew which he didn't like, but other than that life was good.  Than FDIL entered the picture and I saw DS begin to change.  He weren't really carrying him financially.  We did help to make it so his bills were less, like adding him to our insurance, getting him a phone on our account, but he paid for those services.  When he started falling behind in his bills (college, credit cards,overdraft fees) I became his accountant, so to speak.  He would give me a portion of his check to put away so that he could make his bills on time. It was going very well.  He got spending money and if he wanted extra he simply asked.  He even had a nice savings account.  Never did I take one red cent of his money and he knew this. I just helped him manage it.  FDIL resented this.

Around the time he and FDIL became serious he said that some changes were going to be made.  And than he sat us down and said that it was his money and he wanted it.  I told him he always had it.  He said he didn't want me to help him any more.  We said fine. 

He went completely backward.  His savings became negative $748. He would use his bank card to rent a $1 redbox movie and pay $34 in overdraft fees. He did that quite a few times. I pointed out he could have bought the movie, but hey, I'm only his mom. He stopped paying his college tuition and dropped out of school almost two years ago, he's still being billed; still not paying. He got credit cards and would never make a payment on time.  The late fees amounted to more than the debt he owed. I mean he was just making every bad choice you could make. He was getting all kinds of tickets and parking violations, not paying, additional fees were added. He was doing as bad as he could.  This is when he became indebted to FDIL.

Finally, he got fired from the job that he had for two years because he was eating food and not paying for it.  Something he knew he shouldn't do.  He ended up losing his job and having to pay them back for the goods. Before he got fired from this job he had the big falling out with his brother (they worked at the same place).  DS told all the co-workers brother was gay and a wierdo without friends.  He said many other things.  DS didn't know that these people actually liked brother and they were upset that DS would be so hurtful toward him. They told brother and he came to us because he was so hurt. That was the night  we called a family meeting to discuss it. DS went crazy!  He denied everything, but we all knew it was true (FDIL later confirmed it when she was upset with him after OW in bed).  He cursed at his father like a sailor and tried to attack him.  He also went to attack brother but dad stopped him.  He broke his bedroom door and then went to female co-worker house to confront her. Brother called her and told her not to open door.  He than went to male co-worker (his former best friend who dropped him when he saw was liar he was) and made a huge scene. This former friend lived with his pastor grandparents right across from the church they ran.  I was so ashamed.  He was cursing and acting like a person with no upbringing.  The pastor tried to comfort me.  He told me that he had treated DS as a son. DS had spent much time with them.  It was just such a sad situation.  At the end of this he still loved me, but it was dad who he had attacked.  This was the event that forced him to move.  A year later he had to come back.  It's been almost two years since he and his brother have spoken a word.....and well I've already told the rest.  I let DS and FDIL in our home and it was like I let in demons.  When they left it was like there was an exorcism.  The house is so peaceful...and yet this is not how I wanted peace. 

Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 12, 2011, 12:03:01 PM
Just had to update---I WON!!! ;D

Well, son did not do the right thing with the insurance.  He did try and has a pending application with a new company, but they said they needed more info and he never provided it.  I explained our situation and they contacted him and told him he would be uninsured as of 12:01 am tomorrow and that for each day there was a fine.  Great, more coverage for my butt that he was notified, but no good for keeping our current policy. 

Anywhoo, called the back up company and had almost completed the process down to credit card info when they did the final step.  Guess what?!!!  All of DS Jr's accidents were showing under DH Sr's name!!! >:(  Thus, the computer would not allow him to process our application until that was cleared.  Contacted current policy and was told they could send a letter.  No good.  System needs to updated, it can't read a letter.

So hubby and I were going to be without insurance.  I ask current company who was going to be liable for our laspe in coverage since it was them who mixed up DS and DH.  Well, after being transferred and placed on hold forever they decided to that due to all the notes in our file and the many years we've been with them, that they would renew our policy WITHOUT DS!!!!  I have his new address and new telephone number (which he doesn't know I have) the company he applied with has this info on file too if my company needed to verify. 

I am so WIRED right now I feel like I can bounce off the walls.  OMG, this is such a relief.  I think DS is screwed.  Other company was waiting on his driving history.  Ummm...it's very bad.  I know I should feel bad for him, but I just don't!   ::)
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: luise.volta on May 12, 2011, 12:13:29 PM
Wonderful! What a weight off your shoulders! Good for you for not giving up!  :D :D :D
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 12, 2011, 12:14:52 PM
Thanks Luise!!!  I haven't felt this good in weeks!!  I've been doing the happy dance at work.  I just hurt my back doing the cabage patch dance! ;D
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 12, 2011, 12:31:20 PM
Quote from: themuffin on May 12, 2011, 12:14:52 PM
I've been doing the happy dance at work.  I just hurt my back doing the cabage patch dance! ;D

I'd like to see that!  ;D  Hopefully, those fines will get ds' attention.  No telling what's next; ds may start appreciating all you've been doing for him. 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: LaurieS on May 12, 2011, 12:43:18 PM
Really like a giant Ahhhh moment
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Pooh on May 12, 2011, 12:51:38 PM
Yay Muffin! I'm so glad you got all that straightened out!  You shouldn't feel bad for DS, he did it to himself.  Like Rose said, maybe he will learn.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: SassyDI on May 12, 2011, 12:59:10 PM
Quote from: themuffin on May 12, 2011, 12:03:01 PM
Just had to update---I WON!!! ;D

Well, son did not do the right thing with the insurance.  He did try and has a pending application with a new company, but they said they needed more info and he never provided it.  I explained our situation and they contacted him and told him he would be uninsured as of 12:01 am tomorrow and that for each day there was a fine.  Great, more coverage for my butt that he was notified, but no good for keeping our current policy. 

Anywhoo, called the back up company and had almost completed the process down to credit card info when they did the final step.  Guess what?!!!  All of DS Jr's accidents were showing under DH Sr's name!!! >:(  Thus, the computer would not allow him to process our application until that was cleared.  Contacted current policy and was told they could send a letter.  No good.  System needs to updated, it can't read a letter.

So hubby and I were going to be without insurance.  I ask current company who was going to be liable for our laspe in coverage since it was them who mixed up DS and DH.  Well, after being transferred and placed on hold forever they decided to that due to all the notes in our file and the many years we've been with them, that they would renew our policy WITHOUT DS!!!!  I have his new address and new telephone number (which he doesn't know I have) the company he applied with has this info on file too if my company needed to verify. 

I am so WIRED right now I feel like I can bounce off the walls.  OMG, this is such a relief.  I think DS is screwed.  Other company was waiting on his driving history.  Ummm...it's very bad.  I know I should feel bad for him, but I just don't!   ::)

He's a grown adult if his record is bad thats on him and you shouldn't feel bad.  And you shouldn't have him on your policy even more if he is a bad driver.  Hopefully this will teach him how to stand on his own two feet.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 12, 2011, 01:00:18 PM
YAY!!!! MUFFIN!!! Whoop! Whoop! *Happy Danicing*
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: LaurieS on May 12, 2011, 01:05:06 PM
I'm always all for the big party and celebration, but all I can feel is sadness and empathy for your son.  He has done this to himself and it's his responsibility to handle the best he can.  I'm a firm believer in reality checks, but I just have this nagging feeling that this, does a party not make.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Rose799 on May 12, 2011, 01:33:29 PM
How old is your son, Muffin?  Are either of them working? 
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Sassy on May 12, 2011, 04:08:07 PM
Hooray for you Muffin.  Getting someone off a car insurance policy that you've been paying for, that he has known for a long time would expire on Friday the 13th and had every opportunity to prepare for ... is indeed something to celebrate.  Freedom for him to fly as he wishes, and freedom for you to fly without that resentment of feeling taken advantage of.  I feel your victory.

Now if Holly's name and credit line can come off off her MIL's business credit card account to free up Holly's own hard-earned good credit line for her own use, I will do a double happy dance.  DH and I both have credit alerts set up because we anticipated my own MIL trying to do something along those lines, and she did.  We had it shut down before it went through, and we did not press charges...
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: holliberri on May 12, 2011, 04:24:01 PM
I am glad you don't have to worry about him being on your insurance anymore, Muffin. I am sad for your son, however. I hope he is able to get things straightened out like a grown adult eventually...err...rather quickly, is more like it.
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: AnonymousDIL on May 12, 2011, 04:36:46 PM
Wow! The irony just hit me. It is expiring on Friday the 13th!
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: themuffin on May 13, 2011, 05:35:22 AM
Hi all,

  Thanks for the happy thoughts!

   Rose799, DS will be 23 in August.  August 21st, in fact.  We share the same birthday.  He was a wonderful gift at the time.
   ADIL, THANKS for the support.  I did the running man, the cabage patch and the robot!  ;D
   No worries Laurie,  DS phoned hubby late in the afternoon and it seems he did get a policy. I have no idea how much they are charging him but I can't imagine it's anywhere close to the rates that he had with us.  I truly hope he can make the payments.  I don't want him to fail.  Failure would mean that he might want to come home, and I DON'T want that!!!
   Thanks Sassy, it was such a great feeling that he didn't win his little power play.  And to think we did it solely to help him.  I also hope it all works out for Holly.  I'm sending positive thoughts and energy her way until it is resolved. ;D

Happy Friday the 13th Wise Women!!!! ;D
Title: Re: FDIL said she won.
Post by: Pooh on May 13, 2011, 06:08:31 AM
Dang, I never have been able to master the running man.......