I woke up this morning at 5AM, determined to do something to fix my MIL/DIL relationship, determined to try once again. I lost the first post - POOF into the cosmos - so let me try again. This will be a much shorter version.
About a year ago, in order to please DS, I started a campaign to heal my DIL's hard heart. For 8 months I sent flowers, cards, a couple of short email messages, gifts, etc. In return I got absolutely nothing, nada, nichevo. You wise women here at WWU told me that my DIL was saying STOP in no uncertain terms. I stopped.
I need new advice, maybe just advice to go back to bed or stay my hand. I am contemplating (1) calling her and asking what I can do to repair our relationship, or (2) calling her mother and asking the same question.
[Full disclosure: DH and I have a good relationship with DS, even though we only see him for 2-3 days per year, when he comes home on his own. DIL won't come here. DH and I are not welcome at DIL's house.]
Is this fixable? Do I need to wait for a move by DIL? Advice?
Seasage, I have no advice. The only thing that changed my situation with DIL was, as you know, DS stepping up. Things are better now (DIL actually spent the night here although she complained about the bed, etc.), but we've yet to be invited to their home and we still get the crumbs while her FOO sees them daily and gets first pick for all celebrations, birthdays, holidays, etc.
I'm curious to see what the others say. I'm thinking of you {{{hugs}}}
I'd like to know more about your sons role in this relationship. Where does he stand or is he contently fence sitting? I'd leave her mother out of the equation, because most likely she feels that her daughter is justified in all she does. Mom may be a victim of the PB's (parental blindness) and of course anything you say will go right back to the daughter.. I think this is considered bonding to some parents. Nope if you decided to take on your beast of burden.. I'd do it directly, but first I'd take off any blinders and see what your own son is doing to contribute to this problem.
Quote from: Laurie on January 26, 2011, 08:58:13 AM
I'd like to know more about your sons role in this relationship. Where does he stand or is he contently fence sitting? I'd leave her mother out of the equation, because most likely she feels that her daughter is justified in all she does. Mom may be a victim of the PB's (parental blindness) and of course anything you say will go right back to the daughter.. I think this is considered bonding to some parents. Nope if you decided to take on your beast of burden.. I'd do it directly, but first I'd take off any blinders and see what your own son is doing to contribute to this problem.
Good question, Laurie. I used to think that he was an innocent victim in all this because he would cry whenever there was a meeting between us and DIL. The visits never went well. They always ended up with DS stressed, in tears, and me also in tears.
But I remember that when he visited us for 2 days last fall -
after I became a member of WWU -
after I started to get myself together - I started to see his complicity. He was explaining to us that DIL didn't like to visit our house because it has a open plan, and you can see the bedroom doors from the front (cathedral ceiling) entrance. He told us she was a very private person, and that was why she didn't like to come here. We immediately offered to put them up in a local hotel the next time the two of them came. BUT - after DS left, I said to DH that something smelled fishy. I didn't believe that the complaints about privacy came from DIL, but that they were an excuse offered by DS to explain her bad behavior. I told my DH that I was going to renege on the offer of a hotel, that I wasn't going to pay for them to stay somewhere else so that DIL could hide away from us. (Am I being a Grinch in this?)
Yes, I think DS is complicit. I think he does some really stupid things while acting as a GPO (Grand Poobah Overprotector).
There is no way I'd give them a hotel room when there is room at the Inn. I think I'd work on getting son to see his part in the problem first.. that is where I am with my own son.
Seasage, I went and reviewed some of your posts and in one of them you say that DIL has OCD. I'm sorry to say but you may not be ABLE to have a relationship with her. She probably won't come to your house because she perceives that it's not clean enough (I don't think it ever COULD be). She probably doesn't want you coming to her house to 'contaminate' her clean space.
And it's not that she doesn't WANT to have a relationship with you, she can't, because of a mental illness. And (from what I've read) it's a very anxiety laden one, so she's ANXIOUS all the time, that must be exhausting!
It's hard to say what to do. You can't talk to DS and say "So, is DIL really psycho?" or any other such insinuation (unless you know for sure she's been diagnosed?). All you can do is ask him what you can do to make it better, either for him or for her.
Keep the lines of communication open with DS, tell him you support him and you wish things were better with her, and if he thinks of something to please let you know. Then go on with your life knowing that you've done all you can do.
Scoop
I had a friend who dated an OCD girl and he grew tired of the rituals too. Because it wasn't enough for HER to stay 'clean', if he wanted to hold her hand, HE had to perform her rituals too. So he had to flush public toilets with his feet (how nice for the next 'normal' person!), he had to wash his hands and NOT touch the knobs after (unless it was with a paper towel) and he had to grab the exit door at the bottom or at the top when leaving the bathroom (not as many germs in those areas). Also, he had to wash his hands and not touch anything else before he could 'fool around' with her. He said it was a hard life and he felt bad for her, but he couldn't live with it.
Nope, don't go there. Sending love...
Seasage, You have been a wonderful MIL~~above and beyond the call of duty!!! You have done all that you can do...enough is enough!!!
As long as you have a good relationship with DS that is all that counts...In all due respect Seasage, I would not honestly waste another moment on her....Let DS handle her and take it from there, sooner or later the truth always comes out...Good for you renegeing on the hotel room~a grinch you are NOT!!!
DS does indeed has his hands full, just let him know you are there for him...Did she act this way before DS and her married~~I dont know...
Sending Lots of Hugs across the miles, Faith
Seasage,
I'll bite. Have you ever contacted her directly? If so, no, don't try it again. But, if not, then I don't think it can hurt. It eliminates the middle man, and it might put you on good footing. (I said...might!).
But, I'd like to know if you asked her personally first. I would take that phone call as nothing other than goodwill.
Good luck.
Quote from: Scoop on January 26, 2011, 10:10:55 AM
Seasage, I went and reviewed some of your posts and in one of them you say that DIL has OCD. I'm sorry to say but you may not be ABLE to have a relationship with her. She probably won't come to your house because she perceives that it's not clean enough (I don't think it ever COULD be). She probably doesn't want you coming to her house to 'contaminate' her clean space.
Keep the lines of communication open with DS, tell him you support him and you wish things were better with her, and if he thinks of something to please let you know. Then go on with your life knowing that you've done all you can do.
Scoop, I wasn't factoring in the OCD. That may be the real reason she doesn't want to come here, doesn't want me there. And I don't want to get into a situation where I have to perform her rituals. Enough reason to let a sleeping dog lie, I think.
Quote from: Faithlooksup on January 26, 2011, 11:03:30 AM
As long as you have a good relationship with DS that is all that counts...In all due respect Seasage, I would not honestly waste another moment on her....Let DS handle her and take it from there, sooner or later the truth always comes out..
DS does indeed has his hands full, just let him know you are there for him...Did she act this way before DS and her married~~I dont know...
Uh-huh, Faith. I think he knew before he married her. We were the ones who didn't know. When DS was here last fall, he let slip that she
never sits down on toilet seats! My thought at the time, although I didn't say it aloud, was "Great, that means I don't have to clean the toilet seat in the guest bathroom before she comes."
Quote from: holliberri on January 26, 2011, 11:18:38 AM
I'll bite. Have you ever contacted her directly? If so, no, don't try it again. But, if not, then I don't think it can hurt. It eliminates the middle man, and it might put you on good footing. (I said...might!).
But, I'd like to know if you asked her personally first. I would take that phone call as nothing other than goodwill.
Holliberri, ~ one year ago I asked her for a better DIL/MIL relationship by sending a handwritten note card. She never replied. I guess that was my answer.
Quote from: Laurie on January 26, 2011, 10:04:14 AM
There is no way I'd give them a hotel room when there is room at the Inn. I think I'd work on getting son to see his part in the problem first.. that is where I am with my own son.
Laurie, I agree with working on son to help him see his part in this. I'm not sure what form that will take, but I don't intend to shy away from it when the opportunity presents itself.
Thank you everyone for the advice. You saved me a lot of sweat and stress.
seasage
QuoteThank you everyone for the advice. You saved me a lot of sweat and stress.
seasage
That's what we're here for :)
Thinking about it all with a clear head, in the middle of the day, I am starting to feel sorry for DS. I am pretty sure his house-husband duties contribute to his daily stress. He works 2 jobs, commutes 3 hours a day. I think DS is in charge of cooking dinner for her when he gets home. I know DS is at least a 50/50 partner in all the housework, because he told me she won't do any on her own without him. She thinks that house cleaning on her own would be too much for him to ask. I also know that they have no social life at their house - no friends around - possibly because DIL is not capable of being a good hostess.
DS is a fabulous person. He is the guy all the parents wanted for their daughters. He is the guy who goes into the kitchen and cleans up, doesn't drink too much, is super-smart and very funny.
There is something I don't understand about his choices in women!
Choice in a mate...is the mystery that has come down through the ages. Sometimes it looks like many would fare better if a number was drawn out of a hat. Maybe strange chemistry that others can't see starts is off and when that fails, nothing is left. I sure don't know. ???
Seasage, I don't get my DS's choice either. She is devoted to him, and they seem to be working out whatever issues they may have had, but they don't share similar qualities or even interests.
Scoop, the OCD thing may be a factor in my situation with DIL. I have joked here about feeling like she thinks we have cooties, but she may really think we have cooties! Perhaps it's more about her and less about me. Imagine that.
Hey Seasage,
I wouldn't have responded to a handwritten letter either; I wouldn't know what to write, and I would be afraid that you would be afraid to be put on the spot with a phone call.
(I admit I have confontation issues).
To me, if I received a letter, it would be easier to pretend everything is fine by not responding. Poor decision in thinking about it, but a possible decision just the same.
But, it could very well not be you at all. Although I see no reason why even though you don't stay there and she doesn't stay at your house, why your relationship might not be improved in other areas.
Good luck.
Quote from: Scoop on January 26, 2011, 10:10:55 AM
Seasage, I went and reviewed some of your posts and in one of them you say that DIL has OCD. I'm sorry to say but you may not be ABLE to have a relationship with her. She probably won't come to your house because she perceives that it's not clean enough (I don't think it ever COULD be). She probably doesn't want you coming to her house to 'contaminate' her clean space.
And it's not that she doesn't WANT to have a relationship with you, she can't, because of a mental illness. And (from what I've read) it's a very anxiety laden one, so she's ANXIOUS all the time, that must be exhausting!
It's hard to say what to do. You can't talk to DS and say "So, is DIL really psycho?" or any other such insinuation (unless you know for sure she's been diagnosed?). All you can do is ask him what you can do to make it better, either for him or for her.
Keep the lines of communication open with DS, tell him you support him and you wish things were better with her, and if he thinks of something to please let you know. Then go on with your life knowing that you've done all you can do.
Scoop
I had a friend who dated an OCD girl and he grew tired of the rituals too. Because it wasn't enough for HER to stay 'clean', if he wanted to hold her hand, HE had to perform her rituals too. So he had to flush public toilets with his feet (how nice for the next 'normal' person!), he had to wash his hands and NOT touch the knobs after (unless it was with a paper towel) and he had to grab the exit door at the bottom or at the top when leaving the bathroom (not as many germs in those areas). Also, he had to wash his hands and not touch anything else before he could 'fool around' with her. He said it was a hard life and he felt bad for her, but he couldn't live with it.
I just wanted to say ditto to what Scoop has posted. My DH has OCD and if you don't have a partner with OCD (or live with someone who has OCD), you could not possibly understand the frustration and anxiety that people with this problem go through. My DH's mother recently visited and was complaining that he didn't do certain things anymore (like go to the gym)--I had to explain to her in explicit details all of the rituals that he "had" to do everyday and how those were compounded x10 when he went to the gym (because it is "dirty" there). She simply had no idea (and how could she? She hasn't lived with him in 18 years). She was dumbfounded and finally "got it" that it wasn't a matter of him not wanting to do something--he simply cannot do it. It is hard for people who are not directly involved in the situation to understand OCD. Your DS may well be telling the absolute truth about your DIL's fear of your home's layout. Or, she has another irrational fear that he is not telling you about (and he shouldn't--she deserves her privacy when it comes to embarrassing details of her illness). Trust me, my DH has some very weird issues too. The best thing you can do is read up about OCD so that you can understand that it can truly be a crippling disorder.
Quote from: seasage on January 27, 2011, 08:35:24 AM
Thinking about it all with a clear head, in the middle of the day, I am starting to feel sorry for DS. I am pretty sure his house-husband duties contribute to his daily stress. He works 2 jobs, commutes 3 hours a day. DIL works 1 job, commutes 1/2 hr. I think DS is in charge of cooking dinner for her when he gets home. I know DS is at least a 50/50 partner in all the housework, because he told me she won't do any on her own without him. She thinks that house cleaning on her own would be too much for him to ask. I also know that they have no social life at their house - no friends around - possibly because DIL is not capable of being a good hostess.
DS is a fabulous person. He is the guy all the parents wanted for their daughters. He is the guy who goes into the kitchen, cooks and cleans up, chats to the parents, doesn't drink too much, is super-smart and very funny.
There is something I don't understand about his choices in women!
Seasage- I wouldn't worry too much. This sounds like the schedule lots of women manage to keep up with little or no help from their DHs. Their marriage works for them, and if it doesn't it is up to them to fix it.
Seasage, you say that you think DIL is not capable of being a good hostess. That's a pretty harsh judgment, considering the OCD. Without knowing exactly what's it's like, I can imagine that it would be like letting pigs that had just rolled in poopy-muck into your house. And then you have to be nice to them as they sit on your sofa and use your bathroom. What if one of them reached in the salad bowl and plucked a tomato out? Gag, right? Can you imagine the stress your poor DIL feels over having company?
As for cleaning. I don't clean when DH isn't around either. It's not a job only I can do. Why should I give up MY leisure time to scrub toilets? He certainly doesn't. My DH works long hours, partly by choice because he's not good at prioritizing, he's not efficient and he doesn't delegate. He doesn't get paid more for working longer hours. Our compromise was a house cleaning service every 2 weeks. Seriously, that is the KEY to marital harmony and I recommend it to anyone. (Sadly, it's doubtful your DIL would ever consider the house clean enough if someone else did it.)
Seasage,
It is possible that your DS is exactly what DIL needs in her life to cope with her OCD. I don't have OCD, but I need my DH to meet me 50/50 on housework, despite the fact that he works full time and goes to school. Since I do all of those things too, our quality time together and with our DD would be limited if I had to do housework/cooking alone. We get it done faster together, and the payoff is more time spent with one another.
I'm sure she appreciates all that he does, perhaps moreso than other people that don't even have OCD.
My best friend has OCD, and I have to wait an hour or so at her house as she double checks all the knobs on the stove and all of the light fixtures to make sure they're completely off, over and over again. She tells me constantly that I'm the only one that understands what she's going through (although I don't, I just allow her to be her). I can only support her. If wasting my time while she does that is giving her the support she needs, I'm okay with that.
Seasage,
I believe everything you're saying; my DD is 7 months old and I let her crawl around in dog hair, mud, whatever. And, if DD begins to manifest OCD, I might have to change my habits. It has nothing to do with how I raised her or what I exposed her to.
I can't reason with my best friend (and she's not even OCD about dirt, she's manifesting her anxiety differently than other people).
I know functional hardwoking common folk that are plagued by their own OCD, for various reasons.
OCD people miss out on plenty that is good for them, sadly. But when you worry about how this is affecting you, please imagine how it is affecting HER. B/c to go through that has got to be harder than watching her (and watching your DS struggle with her) going through it. Your DS sounds like he's doing a tremendous job loving his wife regardless of whether or not she has OCD.
I'm willing to bet the same thing for BPD and bipolar disorder, although I don't know enough about them.
As for princesses...legitimate illnesses do not amount to entitlement issues, and I'm not sure its fair to lump them together.
Seasage-
You seem to think that people want to have OCD or that they're doing it because they think they're better than others or because it makes them happy. For someone who has seen her DH literally in tears because he can't stop washing his hands until they BLEED let me just say that it is incredibly insulting for you to dismiss this serious anxiety disorder in this way. No, people with OCD did not get that way because they were raised around people who are too neat. My DH's parents are much more in line with how I am in the "clean" department, but guess what? DH and his brother both have anxiety and OCD. I doubt you would be talking this way if your DIL had diabetes--would you suggest that she just eat some sugar and quit trying to be so fancy? How truly and utterly insensitive.
Quote from: holliberri on January 27, 2011, 12:14:44 PM
As for princesses...legitimate illnesses do not amount to entitlement issues, and I'm not sure its fair to lump them together.
Good point, holliberri! Thanks for keeping me on my toes.
Quote from: MrsKitty on January 27, 2011, 12:25:06 PM
Seasage-
You seem to think that people want to have OCD or that they're doing it because they think they're better than others or because it makes them happy. For someone who has seen her DH literally in tears because he can't stop washing his hands until they BLEED let me just say that it is incredibly insulting for you to dismiss this serious anxiety disorder in this way. No, people with OCD did not get that way because they were raised around people who are too neat. My DH's parents are much more in line with how I am in the "clean" department, but guess what? DH and his brother both have anxiety and OCD. I doubt you would be talking this way if your DIL had diabetes--would you suggest that she just eat some sugar and quit trying to be so fancy? How truly and utterly insensitive.
Mrs Kitty,
I'm truly sorry that OCD affects your DH so severely that his hands bleed. I can't image how awful that must be. My only real long-term experience with OCD is my cousin, his wife, and his son. The whole family is OCD. They walk around with their hands held high in the air, avoiding contact with all furniture, doorknobs, and other people. They are almost completely unable to make up their minds about things. I have watched my cousin spend over a week on his computer trying to decide which car to rent at the airport for their next vacation. If we try to go out for dinner, we all drive around for hours, stop at many restaurants, wait in the car while he checks out the establishments, and usually end up back at the cottage because he cannot find anything suitable for his family. I admit that I have not had much patience with the time I have spent waiting for this family, living with them at our cottage, etc. However, I have always been ultra-polite in their presence, and never said anything bad about them. Yes, I do breathe a huge sigh of relief when it is time for all of us to part.
And I don't think it's fair for you to say that I am "truly and utterly insensitive".
Seasage-
I don't understand how you can be so polite and understanding of your cousin's family's problems with OCD and yet view your DIL's problem with the same anxiety disorder (and the other mental illnesses you list) with so much less compassion. Yes, I do think it is insensitive to imply that people are just being "silly" if they can't understand how good/ok it is to be exposed to dirt and germs. People can't "will" themselves out of a mental illness or an anxiety disorder. People can't "will" themselves to get over diabetes or a broken arm or cancer--it just isn't possible--the same is true with mental illness and anxiety disorders. People who have OCD know that it isn't logical--they KNOW it they just can't STOP it. I can't express how powerless and hopeless they can feel because if it. I need to take break now.
Easy...easy...OK?
Seasage.. has your dil been diagnosed with OCD? And if so to what degree, was she affected as a child? Everyone seems to be turning this into a cleaning issue and that hasn't been my take on this form of mental illness from what I've read.
Laurie,
I don't know anything about her childhood. I doubt she was diagnosed OCD, but the family has a lot of internal turmoil --- about which I do not wish to hear.
Also, in deference to MrsKitty, I am not going to continue this discussion.
seasage
Are you aware that you, since you started this post can either lock the topic or completely delete the topic and all contents?
Seasage,
Your DIL is very effectively giving a performance of the Princess and the Pea. Your house simply isn't suitable for her; you provide her with 100 mattresses, but she still wakes up with a pain from the pea at the bottom.
It's so frustrating to be in this no-win situation with a passive-aggressive son. I think it may be more a male attitude here than anything you raised him with. I have seen this before, where a male will sit back and enjoy a situation of two women not getting along. It confirms a general belief system about women.
One of my son's girlfriends had OCD and hers was almost completely controlled by drugs and behavior modification. She was in my home and at family functions many times and never manifested as anything but normal. I never knew she had a problem until son told me. Since when is an illness, if that's what this is defined as medically or psychologically, permission to be rude-to-cruel to other people? As holliberri said, no entitlements here.
I think your DIL may be looking under every mattress for an excuse not to relate to you. Where reality stops and something else is there is anyone's guess. If she is really mentally ill, do you want her in your home? I know you want to see your son, but this kind of compulsivity would drive me crazy. It must be terrible dealing with this, worrying about every speck of dust and the front door and the whole nine yards.
The bottom line is that no matter what you do, until she makes up her mind to be a decent human being (and/or seeks serious help, which clearly is available if my son's girlfriend is any example---and that girl, apparently, had a bad case of it) this is probably not going to be anything much but a waste of your time and effort. I, too, periodically review my situation and try to write new scripts for new pacts with the devil. In the end, I throw it all away in frustration. I cannot control her. Or him. It's that simple.
You certainly deserve far better.
Still stuck with it myself,
Kathleen
Thank you for the wise counsel Kathleen.
"Looking under every mattress for an excuse not to relate to you" hits an old cord. I especially felt that way when DS asked us to sit down and talk. That was two years ago, our last contact with DIL.
I just spent two hours shoveling the driveway, and my back hurts, but my heart is at peace.
seasage
I have received an email sharply critical of my use of the phrase, "Do you want this mentally ill person in your home?" I meant this as specific to this type of behavior, and not a general comment that no one with mental illness should be included in a family.
There are mentally ill people who are psychologically or physically dangerous and I wouldn't be equipped to handle the kind of OCD behavior described here. I should have spoken only for myself. Maybe OCD isn't even a mental illness. I don't know much about it.
I have very close relatives in my family who suffered from mental disorders such as manic-depression, but with treatment they were not abnormal. Being cruel to others under the guise of mental illness isn't something I could tolerate.
I'm glad my email was of some comfort to you, Sea. Please excuse my tactless use of the term.
I seem to have spent the last several days defending myself against criticism. Pardon me if I don't write again for a while, as I'm weary of mounting a defense over words and need a break.
Kathleen
Quote from: kathleen on January 28, 2011, 09:05:54 AM
I seem to have spent the last several days defending myself against criticism. Pardon me if I don't write again for a while, as I'm weary of mounting a defense over words and need a break.
Kathleen
Ditto. A sauna in the showy woods sounds good right now.
seasage
I will meet you there. ;)
Seasage, I think you have gone above and beyond trying to make your DIL feel comfortable, and I do think that her lack of response is your answer. I think you have done what you can and it is now up to her.
If DS is willing to come without her for visits, then just rejoice in those and enjoy your time with him. I will say what Laurie did...don't go with the trying to contact her Mother route. I did that while my DS and DIL were dating and we started having problems, because I had known her Mother for a long time. I thought that if I sat down with her and we talked about what was happening between me and her daughter, that she might be able to give me some advice on how to get along with her. The only thing I learned was exactly where the Daughter got her entitlement from! And she did go back and tell DIL everything we had talked about, creating a bigger rift between us. I later apologized to DIL and tried to explain that I knew that her Mother would know her best, and I was simply looking for some pointers on how I might better get along with her. Ummmm....that went over like a ton of bricks too! My DIL has been on medicine also since she was a teenager for something. I am not a 100% sure, but I think it was some type of anxiety/depression medicine from what little my DS has ever said in front of me. We don't discuss it as I felt like it was her business and not mine. It's kind of a catch 22 though. If I ask so I can learn more about it...I'm getting into her privacy. If I don't ask to give her the privacy, then I may be doing things then I could probably have more patience with, if I knew how things affected her.
Sometimes our best intentions backfire.
Pooh,
Thank you for the good advice.
seasage
I don't think illnesses and afflictions should give anyone a free "bad behavior" pass, especially if help (meds/therapy) is available but not utilized.
Also, unlimited access to everything isn't appropriate for everyone anyway - for example, as an older woman I do not attend raves. I'd just make everyone uncomfortable. There are places some of us should not go.
Quote from: Scoop on January 26, 2011, 10:10:55 AM
I had a friend who dated an OCD girl and he grew tired of the rituals too. Because it wasn't enough for HER to stay 'clean', if he wanted to hold her hand, HE had to perform her rituals too. So he had to flush public toilets with his feet (how nice for the next 'normal' person!), he had to wash his hands and NOT touch the knobs after (unless it was with a paper towel) and he had to grab the exit door at the bottom or at the top when leaving the bathroom (not as many germs in those areas).
Oh boy, I am reading this going I'm not OCD really!! I just feel public toilets are discusting and...I won't swim in public swimming pools either....I always think when using paper towel to turn the taps on and off that it is really gross when the person beside me doesn't. Why bother washing them at all if you touch the germ ridden taps afterwards? My children have the "phobia" and yes we all use our feet to lift the lid. Doesn't it make perfect sense to not use door handles either especially when the person before turned off the taps after "washing their hands".
Quote from: Julia on January 29, 2011, 02:47:01 AM
Oh boy, I am reading this going I'm not OCD really!! I just feel public toilets are discusting and...I won't swim in public swimming pools either....
Well you are one up on me... I won't even go into the public with a bathing suit on.
Nice One Laurie ....lol
You always lift the situation .......Me too ...I would scare away the bathers ... ;D