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Problem Solving => Daughter in Laws and/or Son in Laws => Topic started by: justanoldgrandma on August 18, 2011, 09:17:00 PM

Title: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: justanoldgrandma on August 18, 2011, 09:17:00 PM
I know there are countless considerate, wonderful dils out there who are unselfish, giving, loving to family of their dh; who aren't controlling and demanding.   My sil for one was wonderful to my parents and called my mother "Mother"; made sure my brother's family was treated fairly and lovingly.  And I know that today there are great wives/dils so please don't think I am condemning all dils bc I am one myself!

However, it seems in reading posts there are many complaints about controlling "princesses" who cut out their ILs and discourage their husbands from seeing their FOO (us!)  My son was raised in our home where my dh, a proud and good man, would never take commands, bad treatment, rudeness, or neglect of his family. 

Son himself is intelligent and kind; yet as soon as he became serious with his now wife he completely bought into the "the girl always wins" meaning his future wife.  She fortunately has not done the "cut off" with us yet son gives her free rein to set all visits and holidays w her family; I know some of this is only natural but her mercurial nature, sulking, and downright sometimes rudeness to ds, her family, and to us is so NOT understandable!  (although she was raised as a princess.) 

The puzzle is why ds takes the sometimes demands, snappiness, total control of their social/family time...... he doesn't criticize her behavior, justifies it or ignores it..... seems to think it's the way it should be.  I am trying at a late date to be less sensitive to her remarks and sharpness but it's not fun being around a changeable, narcissistic dil who holds the keys to gc!  (DH and I do not complain to ds bc it would simply turn him away from us and we do have visits and want to keep seeing them.

Any ideas on why there seems to be so many complaints from us MILs about WHY our sons are so subservient to the controlling, self-centered princesses  that they have married?!
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: luise.volta on August 18, 2011, 09:38:16 PM
My take is that their wives receive their primary loyalty which is as it should be and they can't change them once all of the negativity surfaces.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Keys Girl on August 19, 2011, 05:51:19 AM
My answer in addition to the usual is ........sex.  Once the hostilities began, my future DIL made a point of have a very explicit conversation with a friend in front of me about her sexual prowess.  I didn't comment.  I thought she was crude and rude.  A male friend of mine recently assured me that men don't really understand women until their 40's.

I think some of these young women use the threat of having their husbands "sleep on the couch" forever if they don't cave in to their demands. 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Belle on August 19, 2011, 07:13:36 AM
There are indeed some of these DILs out there, but also a lot of MILs have misconceptions about their DILs.  I've seen it lots, and experienced it myself.  My own MIL has no problem telling everyone I'm a spoiled little "princess" and that I control eeeeeeeeverything in our home and relationships.  Simply put, its just plain false.  She doesn't know me at all, and if she did she'd know that I am anything but a princess.  And the second that anything doesn't go HER way (aka, she doesn't get to come drop in whenever she pleases, without warning) then suddenly I "control everything." 

I think you are right, to a certain extent.  There are LOTS of similar MIL complaints of "princess DILs," but I am realistic in knowing that at least some of them could be faulty perception.

 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: pam1 on August 19, 2011, 07:33:18 AM
I think it's probably impossible to know what goes on behind closed doors or other peoples marriages.  If it is indeed a case where a new wife takes control, the answer to me is simple -- because new hubby let her.  They found something in each other they like/love and feels works for them.  For some people and especially men, finding a spouse who is willing to take control of the housework and other grown up responsibilities is enough for them to hand over the reigns for *everything* 

For me, the better question is why would someone allow themselves to be treated this way? 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Sassy on August 19, 2011, 08:06:27 AM
I agree, there are some people who can't be understood.  Whether sons, daughters, DILs, mothers or MILs.  And often it is just a combination of the chemistry between two people, and not necessarily any one person "being" this or that.

My own MIL thinks I am a gold digging princess.  I noticed she began talking that way when DH and I were coming together as a closer couple and ultimately a little family. When we began to do things our way, instead of her way.  We would never tell her how to spend her time and money. I have always respected that's her decision, hers to make and her to own.  I don't think that spending our money and time the way we want makes me a princess.   But I've been made aware that my MIL does. (DH is my prince charming, but that's another story!  ;) )
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: justanoldgrandma on August 19, 2011, 08:14:31 AM
Good points, ladies.  Sassy, you are right; understanding other people, even our own families, is sometimes impossible!  What goes on in a couple's marriage is none of my business and thank goodness I've kept my mouth shut and not criticized to dil/ds whether I approve of something or not.  Sure way to get "cut out." 

Thanks..... good perspectives!
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Scoop on August 19, 2011, 08:37:03 AM
I know for *MY* DH, he was very much conditioned to obey the "mommy figure".  FIL's Mom died when FIL was young and so whenever SIL or DH would argue with their mother as teens, FIL would ALWAYS stand by MIL and tell the kids "You don't know how lucky you are to have a mother, don't talk to her like that." - how can you argue with that?

However, I think it puzzled my MIL when DH married me, and especially after DD was born, and *I*  became the "Mommy Figure".  And now he worships ME.

But really, he doesn't WANT to have to make decisions.  For crying out loud, he can't even decide what *HE* wants to eat, when he's hungry and we're going out and ALL the options are open to him.

I think he doesn't like to take responsibility for making a choice.  He doesn't want to be the one to blame if anything goes wrong.  For example: if he pushes for a visit to his P's, and things go south (they always do) and *I* have a terrible time, then he has to hear it from me AND he has to hear it from them.  (I'm not saying it's like this for you JustaGma, I'm saying it's like this for US.) 

It's very hard for him to be wrong.  It took a LONG time for me to convince him that saying 'sorry' wasn't a sign of weakness and it didn't mean he was "losing".  Obviously, growing up, he learned that being wrong meant you got blamed and shamed.

There's also a lot of weight behind the saying "happy wife, happy life".  He has to LIVE with me, and we both know that I have the power to make his life miserable 24/7.  Without even being "mean", I could just withdraw all of the things I do around the house that benefit HIM, down to knowing how much milk there is in the fridge.  It's just not worth it to him to rock the boat.  Can you imagine how hard it must be for a man married to a woman who's willing to be mean?

Scoop
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Sassy on August 19, 2011, 08:48:36 AM
What an interesting thread.

Expectations seems to play a role, too.  I saw it written once that expectations can be like a one sided contract.  For example, the daughter who has a baby and expects her mother will provide free babysitting around the clock. The daughter gets angry when her mother doesn't honor the contract that the mother never entered.

One of my earliest realizations of this feeling (though not articulated that way) was when DH and I were still dating, and planned a camping trip for Memorial Day weekend.  I remember MIL was angry and upset that we would "leave her alone on a holiday."   I felt a combination of being selfish for letting her down, and plain confusion.  I didn't want to hurt her and it honestly didn't occur to me that us going camping would hurt her.   I think that an expecation on both our parts, let to upset as if a contract was being broken.  Was it selfish of us that we planned a long anticipated camping trip finally made possible by the warming weather and a 3 day weekend free of work? I understand that to her it was selfish of us, because we made a decision and did not consider her when making it.

I didn't immediately realize MIL's expectations, and the implications they held for our relationship.  However, even once I was aware of some of MIL's expectations (such as the two of us, she and I, going on a girl's weekend trip to Las Vegas together) I still didn't meet them.   That's probably around the time the difficulties between us escalated to the point it became damaging.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: QuietStorm on August 19, 2011, 09:21:06 AM
My situation I look like a princess...I'm a grown woman so I say what I think and feel.  My MIL is one that thinks all opinions contrary to hers should not be said.  My DH had said to her time and time again that he is not going to "police" me so I guess that looks like he's "taking it" from me. 

The whole visitations thing always gets to me.  I am not fond of the way my ILs treat me.  So when a holiday rolls around I always think, I would much rather spend this day with my family.  I bring it up to DH and since he's too lazy to come up with a plan and he generally likes my family's company we go to my family.  The rare times we do go see his family it's because I've planned it.  I really believe a lot of the visitation issues that MILs have as another poster on another thread wrote is really due to lazy sons.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pooh on August 19, 2011, 09:26:28 AM
I think it is partially my fault and partially his dad's fault.  I think he saw me making all the decisions, all the housework, all the carpooling, all the homework time, all the disciplining, etc. and his Father doing nothing and having a grand ole' time.  I think he found those qualities in his mate and probably didn't realize there was a difference.  She does all that because she is a control freak and likes drama.  It gives her something to complain about although she is doing it on purpose.  He didn't realize that I became that way because if I didn't, we wouldn't have anything.  I wanted the help and couldn't get it.  I was a control freak because I didn't want the electricity cut off.

So, I think he takes after his Father and is lazy and likes the easy way out.  He found someone that would give it to him.  Her parents fix everything for them at their house and spend money on them.  He may have to listen to her constant complaining but he's not having to do anything.  I think he finds the payoff worth it.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pooh on August 19, 2011, 09:29:10 AM
Quote from: QuietStorm on August 19, 2011, 09:21:06 AM
I really believe a lot of the visitation issues that MILs have as another poster on another thread wrote is really due to lazy sons.

Ha ha ha....we were posting at the same time!
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Belle on August 19, 2011, 10:11:39 AM
Pam1 said :

QuoteFor me, the better question is why would someone allow themselves to be treated this way?

That's an excellent question, and for this particular thread topic, it begs to be answered.  Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had some DH's here to answer?  LOL - IF we could ever get a straight answer from them.

I'm again not discounting the fact that there are in fact some of these "princess" DILs out there, but I would take a chance on saying they are the exception and not the rule.  Grown men have the rights and ability to step up to the plate when either his wife or mother are being mistreated, or if they're not getting along, or if one wants to visit and one doesn't (ie. ANY situation).  When they don't step up, why is it so easy to say "oh, DIL must be controlling him" rather than "wow, my son is really a spineless piece of work.  Where'd he get that from?"

Remember that this shoe also fits on the other foot.  There are "princess" MILs out there too, and where your son isn't "dealing" with princess DIL, in some cases, he fails to keep his mother on the bright side of civil.  Its just as painful to see a marriage fall apart because DH lets Mommy control him (and/or his spouse) into adulthood.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pooh on August 19, 2011, 10:33:56 AM
Quote from: Belle on August 19, 2011, 10:11:39 AM
When they don't step up, why is it so easy to say "oh, DIL must be controlling him" rather than "wow, my son is really a spineless piece of work.  Where'd he get that from?"

For my case only, it wasn't easy for me to say that, either statement.  Mine is not based on an assumption that she must be a princess because my Son wouldn't act this way if she wasn't.  Mine is based on witnessing her act that way for two years in my home, embarrassing me in front of other parents and friends with her attitude about anything that wasn't going her way and her treatment of everyone.  It's not just me that has been excluded.  It's been my entire family, his brother who used to be inseperable from him, his friends and anyone that wasn't her family or her chosing. 

It was also very hard for me to say, my DS is really a spineless piece of work.  I didn't raise him to be that way...or maybe I did unknowingly.  I can tell you that I never wanted to have to think that way about one of my children.  I never wanted to think that way about one of my DILS.  I have a case of both.

You are totally right and I think we all recognize here that there are MILS, DDS and DILS that are worthy of that title.  Heck, I know a few DSs that are worthy of that title!
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: QuietStorm on August 19, 2011, 10:38:17 AM
So I asked my DH to answer the question for the boards and he wrote:

"I married you.  I vowed to give you my time, my love, and my patience.  I promised your family, you and myself that I would live my life in a way that would make you happy.  I don't feel bullied when I do things you want.  If you want something and I can provide it and it doesn't bother me to do it, then why not?  I don't care that much what we do half the time so if you have a preference I go with it.  If my parents and my family can't handle that then that's their problem.  The saddest part of all of this is the fact that I learned my mother's love wasn't unconditional.  It was dependent on me doing things her way and that just isn't going to work.  Besides happy wife happy life."

Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: RedRose on August 19, 2011, 10:43:44 AM
They allow their wifes to treat them that way because they don't want to argue..they want to keep the peace. They have to live with each other. I have personally heard my ex- DIL threaten my son with NO SEX if he didn't do things her way all the time...everytime.

You don't have to change your priorities just because you get married. Respect for each other is all that is needed and respect for each others familys.

My son finally grew a spine and divorced her.

Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: pam1 on August 19, 2011, 01:06:27 PM
I think a lot of it has to do with wanting too.  I don't know many of the male species who don't do exactly what they want, when they want.  My DH will make plans with his buddies, sometimes including me and DD, sometimes not.  Before I quit inserting myself in his relationship with his FOO, I was the only one playing ball with them.  DH had took his ball and went home long before I did.  In our case, he went along to see his FOO to appease me, not his FOO.

It's just been my observation reading here and other boards aimed at IL issues that my situation is not anywhere near abnormal, this is typical.  For whatever reason, DH does not feel it is worth it.  Instead of him going to talk to his mother when issues started cropping up (before I was even involved with him) he buried his head in the sand.

I can't say he is right or wrong, beyond including me in a relationship that he won't put work in.  I think he had a responsibility to let me know what was going on in his head regarding his mother.  But other than that, I think most of the time it goes back to it's between Mom and adult Son, somewhere there was a breakdown and DIL is caught in the cross hairs.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Belle on August 19, 2011, 01:09:09 PM
RedRose you are so right.  It baffles me how people can allow themselves to be treated that way...but at the end of the day its not up to me.  If people choose to subject themselves to that lifestyle, its none of my business.

I think where so many people get tripped up in the "respect" issue is their own personal definitions of "respect."  In some families and cultures, the matriarch is to be feared and revered...that is her definition of "honor."  Her every whim is to be catered to without question.  My MIL comes from that train of thought, although apparently she adopted it for herself.  Everyone has told me that her mother was not like that, and her sisters are definitely not like that.  The fits she throws when she doesn't get her definition of respect are quite comical.  Even DH doesn't quite understand it...he says she was never like this until he started dating and forming serious relationships.  Our definitions of respect are quite different, and that's mostly where we clash.  I just can't do enough for her...and now neither can DH. 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Rose799 on August 19, 2011, 01:22:37 PM
Pam, does your mil know where you stand on the issue?  I'm just wondering if she's made the effort to work with ds rather than go through you?
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: lancaster lady on August 19, 2011, 01:41:06 PM
I wish someone would explain why my Ds allowed himself to be persuaded to become a dad while living
in a house that belonged to his GF's FOO.
After the baby was born they were asked to leave while remaining friends with her FOO.
They then rented a house which they couldn't afford .
Then my FDIL began planning  wedding when she knew they couldn't contribute anything towards it !
Is this a case of I want , and I want it now ?
No forward planning , no consideration of who would pay for everything.
Also when they asked her FOO to take them in , they were refused .
So the FMIL who was denied access to her GD was asked to rescue this poor delusional family .
I wish my DS had separated his brains from other parts of his body and actually sat down
and thought things out before jumping in with both feet .

Who knows what takes over our DS when they become entangled with the other sex !
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on August 19, 2011, 02:12:04 PM
Thank you for this thread so I can add my heartfelt thoughts.  Just having come back from visiting GC, 2 and 4 yo, I have fresh feelings and perceptions that bother me about the Princess Bride and Groom.  If you can indulge me a bit here, I'd appreciate it and try to get to the point.  Without going into my trip too much and giving too much attention and energy to that part of me that really makes me feel miserable, just let me say, *expectations* - *feelings* - these are changeable.  My experience influences me, but does not rule my behavior.  I have a head on my shoulders and moral direction and with the help of  WWU, I can *keep my eyes on the target*.  I got a lot of support from WWU before going to the visit and I think more now about what I learned and I think more about what I want from family and how to say that too.  Although I am no saint - neither are DS and DIL, that certainly levels the playing field so who ever is the host and whoever is the guest will help determine the appropriate behaviors.  Civilization is based on being polite and having manners.  Very common, typical stuff to have issues in the family, I agree.  It is the woman's right to build a nest and make the marriage rules, in order to raise children in a safe and secure home.  Men have input, but don't really care all that much, just tell them the rules and be consistent.  Women who rock the cradle really do rock the nation - I think we do!  I just need to realize that when I visit I only see a very very small part of their lives together -- seems less organized and predictable than I would like, but then that's my impression and certainly for sure is not the whole Truth.  I can cut me some slack for saying to get rid of all the junk food that it is not good for the girls -- as I wanted to fight back a little and say what I was thinking.  And I can cut them some slack for not ever cooking a meal for us, or offering to pick up the tab when we ate out.  So, sometimes there is hope for me -- like me noticing that what is a lot more important to me than my feelings, expectations, impressions etc, is getting to see the GC and feel part of their lives.  I am learning to work things out with my Son too - it is kinda touchy, but I am learning to be respectful nonetheless of their own lifestyle.  They do not necessarily want to *hang out* with 60 year olds who also are their parents/ILs.  That being said, after coming home, my DH and I spelled out to each other how unwelcome we felt with not being invited to a home cooked meal, or being offered to pick up the tab when we ate out.  But we were asked to come back after the girls were put to bed which we did and talked with the grownups; and, we also did not impose on them during the work week after we dropped off the girls.  Oh wells, poor us, we are no longer the primary roles in our family, right?  More importantly, now what will we do next?  We just bought our tickets for Thanksgiving to go visit them for a week.  LOL   :o  Again, we will stay at a B&B for a couple nights, again babysit so the parents will go away a couple nights, then stay a couple more nights back at the B&B.  We are still invited to sleep on the couch if we want - our choice is B&B thanks anyways - it is worth it to get a good night's sleep.  I have my limits too on cooking and cleaning -- Not Being In Charge of the Thanksgiving Dinner - but will I refuse to help?  Heck no - it is not who I AM.  I am more than happy to help where DIL would like me to (which is everything and everywhere - sorry couldn't help myself from saying that there).   I can and will be more than happy to set table, watch the kids, make a salad, make dessert, clean the kitchen, baste the bird, make stuffing -- you name it, but I refuse to do it all, and I refuse to let every little slight spoil my visit!  And that's how we are going to keep going, rant here and with my DH, and deal with things directly with Son in a respectful way.  I probably should apologize for criticizing the pantry full of junk food (I will apologize).  My point here is just that in our family it is not going to be acceptable to cut off, to give up, to hate, over stuff we can learn to deal with, because we are family.  We are it - we make it good and get through the bad.  We will work things out -- and that's what I learned, it is more important to me than the other crap.  My DS/DIL have their perceptions and feelings too --- why should mine be more important than theirs?  I chose to be a hardworking Mom and wife -- and in the end I got a divorce and dealt with teenagers dealing with drug issues.  Thank GOD, I recovered from my ex's extramarital affairs, thank GOD I was told about Al-Anon, and Thank God I have another day to learn to love more not only my family and friends, but myself as well.  thanks WWU - I appreciate being able to bring these feelings to the surface -- and  let them go.  I hope you can take what you want and leave the rest.  Peace, hugs.   
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Rose799 on August 19, 2011, 02:14:19 PM
"Love is Blind," LL...
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: pam1 on August 19, 2011, 02:30:41 PM
Quote from: Rose799 on August 19, 2011, 01:22:37 PM
Pam, does your mil know where you stand on the issue?  I'm just wondering if she's made the effort to work with ds rather than go through you?

Yes and no.  We had a series of a couple hour long conversations each where I could talk a tiny bit, she'd ask for an example and then tell me the ways I misinterpret or misunderstood.  Or, this was her fall back response, was that DH did not act like an adult before he and I were engaged so she is justified for her current behaviors. 

She does have a point, he didn't act like an adult.  They both engaged in an odd adult son/mother relationship, she would do things like shop for gifts for him to give others and he would pay her back.  So yes, she definitely has a point but again, it's an issue with her son and doesn't relate to why she chooses to make her issues with him my fault.

DH has had one conversation with her so far and apparently she pulled the same thing with him, asked for an example, then told him how he was wrong and misinterpreted and when that didn't work she spent the rest of the convo telling him how I was a crappy parent.

I don't know where we go from here, I'm not sure there is any where to go lol.  I'm working on letting go for now, I feel I really did try my best and maybe it was just meant to be a lesson for me.  Here is a person with so much and this is what can happen when there are no limits?  LOL, I don't know.   GMIL (MIL's mother) has said several times to me she knows that MIL has issues, she's been like that since she was a child.  It made me think of all the parents who say they gave their kids everything, maybe that is the problem.  When you have so much, you don't care what you lose? 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Belle on August 19, 2011, 02:38:00 PM
SB@U - i want you to know how wonderful it was for me to read your post.  I think you sound like a wonderful MIL, and I would probably trade you for mine any.day.of.the.week.  But it's not because you're super-dee-duper nice and pleasant all the time, but because you have taken that "step back" that all mothers of adult children must learn to do.  You've realized how to pick your battles and zip-the-lip for the sake of salvaging the relationship you have with DS and DIL.  We all ahve to do that, MILs and DILs alike.  You've realized that you shouldn't be first-and-foremost in your son's life anymore, but that YOU are responsible for your own emotional well-being and happiness.  And that, to me, sounds very wise indeed. 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on August 19, 2011, 02:54:09 PM
Thank you Belle, for recognizing that I am working through my stuff - I like how you put it and will certainly take your feedback to heart - step back, pick my battles, and zip the lip and realize that I am not the primary relationship with my dear Son.  (BTW, Belle fits you - means beautiful :)  Thank you again for affirming me.  I did enjoy mothering my sons when they were young and thought I was preparing them to be good husbands someday - not a Mommy's boy.  Now, you are also right, to say that I am responsible for making myself happy or miserable now about my new role - how true is that -- You are a Wise Woman also.  Thanks,
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Rose799 on August 19, 2011, 03:35:00 PM
Quote from: pam1 on August 19, 2011, 02:30:41 PM
GMIL (MIL's mother) has said several times to me she knows that MIL has issues, she's been like that since she was a child.  It made me think of all the parents who say they gave their kids everything, maybe that is the problem.  When you have so much, you don't care what you lose?

I replied but somehow lost it, so this may appear twice.  I remember you saying that your mil has BPD, Pam.  I'm not sure how that reflects how she is with you & ds, but I am a firm believer in Maya Angelou's quote, "When you know better, you do better."  Maybe she doesn't know any better, Pam.   I note here at WWU, the majority, like Smilesback@u, are open to working things out.  Your being here shows your willingness, Pam.  I hope that your mil knows better soon & will meet you part way.  Don't lose hope.  My df was pretty set in his ways, but he mellowed along with the years. 

((hugs))
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: pam1 on August 19, 2011, 03:53:24 PM
Thanks, Rose :)  Yes, she was diagnosed with BPD and depression.  I try to think she doesn't know any better but there are large parts of me that really do think she knows what she is doing is wrong, otherwise she wouldn't lie when she was caught.  Or she'd be more willing to say these things to me or DH directly rather than saying them to the other or other people entirely.  For all her issues, it has never been clear that she doesn't know what she is doing, she is very good at manipulation.

I think there might be an element that she doesn't know the reaction she is getting now.  Up until recently she as able to get away with this kind of stuff, people will drop it b/c it was too much effort in talking to her.  DH and I haven't recently and I think she just doesn't realize that neither of us are in the mood or right frame of mind to put up with this stuff. 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Keys Girl on August 19, 2011, 03:57:49 PM
I just want to point out that you can never tell why people do what they do.  Some people don't even know why they are doing certain things.  I will say that if my son is a spineless wimp, he didn't learn that from me.  I taught him to stand up for what he wanted to and to express that verbally from the time he was a toddler.  I don't know where this spiteful, hateful and disdainful person came from but I suspect my ex had a hand in that.  I have seen many circumstances where a strong mother, a wife who calls the shots, produce a passive husband, and I wouldn't discount passive aggressive either. (at least in my case)

But trying to understand why people do what they do is just another way to explain it to ourselves.  It's a bit of a salve for the wounds.  I don't think it makes much difference in the end.  If you are treated badly by your adult children, they are choosing to do so and at some point in time, I expect my son's choice to limit his expectations for a future relationship with me.

I know I'll be pushing up daisies by the time it comes to that but I would like to see how he deals with his son(s) and their future wives........ooohhh to be a fly on the wall.......looking down from heaven.  (You didn't think I was going to hell did you?)

Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pen on August 19, 2011, 04:29:35 PM
I'm a DIL as well as a MIL, which I'm guessing most MILs here are or have been. I've had one awful MIL, one wonderful MIL, and currently have a rather sour, suspicious step-MIL I'd not met until recently. It gives one a broader perspective, I think, to have experienced both sides. Having never been a spoiled princess it never would have occurred to me to influence either of my DHs to turn against their FOOs or fade away from them.

It shocked me when DIL and her FOO started the takeover, and it continues to bother me although DS has stood up to them and reassures us that we are important to him and that he loves us. DH won't say anything but I could tell he was hurt when DS recently told us all about car shopping with his FIL. That's just one example of many regarding the takeover.

DS obeys DIL & her FOO because they can provide the shiny, new stuff. We just provided the boring old stuff that made DS's shiny new life possible.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: pam1 on August 19, 2011, 04:44:51 PM
Hey Pen, I saw this article and thought of you.  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/02/fashion/02studied.html 

It is something I suspect for a long time.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pen on August 19, 2011, 05:06:13 PM
Thanks Pam, it's an interesting article. I'm about up to here with being empathetic, LOL.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Rose799 on August 19, 2011, 10:06:06 PM
Quote from: pam1 on August 19, 2011, 03:53:24 PM
Thanks, Rose :)  Yes, she was diagnosed with BPD and depression.  I try to think she doesn't know any better but there are large parts of me that really do think she knows what she is doing is wrong, otherwise she wouldn't lie when she was caught.  Or she'd be more willing to say these things to me or DH directly rather than saying them to the other or other people entirely.  For all her issues, it has never been clear that she doesn't know what she is doing, she is very good at manipulation.

I think there might be an element that she doesn't know the reaction she is getting now.  Up until recently she as able to get away with this kind of stuff, people will drop it b/c it was too much effort in talking to her.  DH and I haven't recently and I think she just doesn't realize that neither of us are in the mood or right frame of mind to put up with this stuff.

As the commercials relay, depression hurts everyone.  That's a tough one in itself, Pam.  When you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, it's so easy to blame your lot on others.  "If only..."  Even so, it doesn't make life any easier for you & dh either.  I'm so sorry, Pam. 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Nana on August 20, 2011, 02:36:38 AM
Smiles...I love your post.....You are very honest with your feelings and like the way you feel....As Belle.says....... We (parents) have to accept not being #1 in our son/daughter's live anymore....we have to step back and let them  be.  Yet, we as parents also have the right to have a happy-healthy life. 

Belle...I loved to hear the dil's perspective....because we are probably old (I am 60) but still have a lot to learn.  I am now having a good relationship with dil but I had to worked very hard because she married my son with an anticipating plan of not letting us get close (thinking that we would be nosey, intrusive, controlling, etc) ...didnt give us a chance...... It took time for her to see that we were not that kind of people... She was not a princess lol...but she was very mean to my family (specially me).   My son ... told me that when she was mean...they would then fight at home.....and that he did not visit dil's parents anymore.....to get even with her.  She resented it because my son loved his mil and fil a lot..... and now he had distanced himself from her foo.
t was the way, he was honoring his parents (us).
   
Thinks are real good now.... But I had to step back.. call it a day.. and find my peace and balance.....until then.....she realized that we had done nothing wrong....on the contrary we were there to help....without conditions, interference, opinions,  NADA.

iT IS UP to us and/or our sons to accept this treatment.  Men owe loyalty to their spouse....but they can still speak....if a love one is being unfairly treated.    I think
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pooh on August 20, 2011, 06:14:54 AM
Smiles, you handled everything great!  You even recognized what they didn't do well and what you didn't do well without blame.  That's great and I'm glad you are already prepared to apologize for something you said that had good intentions, but you recognize it wasn't something you should have said.  We are human.  I think one of the hardest things for me to get my thick brain through sometimes is the feelings I have that if DS/DIL decided to mend the relationship and move on, would they truly recognize that I am human and although I can learn, there would be something I was going to say something that they didn't like or agree with in the future.  It's going to happen.  It's not anyone's fault, we are human.  Would we be right back here? Or would they have learned that things get said by everyone.  I've called my BFF a choice name or two when she's made a comment.  I don't get mad, I just kind of go, "Seriously, did you just tell me that I am...."  and we laugh and go on.  I think it takes a big recognition on both sides that people are not perfect.  You did great!

Pam, I have no doubt you have done your best.  Does your MIL acknowledge she has BPD?  I'm asking because if she doesn't, then she probably doesn't believe she is that way.  She may know what she is saying or doing but because she will not acknowledge that she had an issue, doesn't know why she does it or even think she's doing it.  I think many of our problems come back to "self-awareness".  I know I'm going to be a crabby butt this next two weeks because of my medicine.  I know it, acknowledge it and am aware of it.  Doesn't mean I will not slip up, but by having that awareness it will make me do better because I will try harder to recognize that I'm in a foul mood and not take it out on anyone.  I've already apologized to my DH, my co-workers and here because I KNOW what's going to happen and am asking for patience.  That makes it so much easier for people to cut me some slack if I do something because they know that I know.  I know your MIL is a pill (to say the least) and you have tried.  I think I said the same thing the other day.  I think much of our relationship problems are like dealing with an alcoholic that refuses to see they have a problem.  We will always have a problem with them until they come out of denial and start helping themselves first.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pen on August 20, 2011, 07:42:04 AM
Quote from: Nana on August 20, 2011, 02:36:38 AM
Smiles...I love your post.....You are very honest with your feelings and like the way you feel....As Belle.says....... We (parents) have to accept not being #1 in our son/daughter's live anymore....we have to step back and let them  be.  Yet, we as parents also have the right to have a happy-healthy life. 

Belle...I loved to hear the dil's perspective....because we are probably old (I am 60) but still have a lot to learn.  I am now having a good relationship with dil but I had to worked very hard because she married my son with an anticipating plan of not letting us get close (thinking that we would be nosey, intrusive, controlling, etc) ...didnt give us a chance...... It took time for her to see that we were not that kind of people... She was not a princess lol...but she was very mean to my family (specially me).   My son ... told me that when she was mean...they would then fight at home.....and that he did not visit dil's parents anymore.....to get even with her.  She resented it because my son loved his mil and fil a lot..... and now he had distanced himself from her foo.
t was the way, he was honoring his parents (us).
   
Thinks are real good now.... But I had to step back.. call it a day.. and find my peace and balance.....until then.....she realized that we had done nothing wrong....on the contrary we were there to help....without conditions, interference, opinions,  NADA.

iT IS UP to us and/or our sons to accept this treatment.  Men owe loyalty to their spouse....but they can still speak....if a love one is being unfairly treated.    I think

Good post, Nana!
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on August 20, 2011, 09:48:24 AM
Quote from: Nana on August 20, 2011, 02:36:38 AM
Smiles...I love your post.....You are very honest with your feelings and like the way you feel....As Belle.says....... We (parents) have to accept not being #1 in our son/daughter's live anymore....we have to step back and let them  be.  Yet, we as parents also have the right to have a happy-healthy life. 

Belle...I loved to hear the dil's perspective....because we are probably old (I am 60) but still have a lot to learn.  I am now having a good relationship with dil but I had to worked very hard because she married my son with an anticipating plan of not letting us get close (thinking that we would be nosey, intrusive, controlling, etc) ...didnt give us a chance...... It took time for her to see that we were not that kind of people... She was not a princess lol...but she was very mean to my family (specially me).   My son ... told me that when she was mean...they would then fight at home.....and that he did not visit dil's parents anymore.....to get even with her.  She resented it because my son loved his mil and fil a lot..... and now he had distanced himself from her foo.
t was the way, he was honoring his parents (us).
   
Thinks are real good now.... But I had to step back.. call it a day.. and find my peace and balance.....until then.....she realized that we had done nothing wrong....on the contrary we were there to help....without conditions, interference, opinions,  NADA.

iT IS UP to us and/or our sons to accept this treatment.  Men owe loyalty to their spouse....but they can still speak....if a love one is being unfairly treated.    I think
Step back and let them be - and I believe in second chances too, cuz i have given unsolicited opinions and interfered some and that doesn't help DIL/son -- but cause some problems.  Nothing they can't deal with thought.  Thanks Nana for your positive outlook and experience. 

Also, I can really relate to your feeling that DIL is pushing us aside and the meanness AND the possible consequences between Son and DIL.  Little things get blown up out of proportion by me I suspect (just one example is I noticed that big wall photos of her family, while little photos on lower shelf of son's - kinda petty on my part).  Have you any idea how your DIL acts with her own family?  I ask you because sometimes we get a glimmer that DIL is bossy with her own family - with the consequence being they don't visit much (of course, money is a huge issue for them).  My son told me once that he just wanted me to know that her family decides when they will babysit too.  I pay attention to everything and later connect the dots.  Any mental problems she has are well understood by her family, and longstanding -- and they love her anyways.  So now, she is part of my family, and I am learning to understand her problems -- and well, they definitely are longstanding 10 years running, but learning to honor her as she is my son's wife and wish him and her well.  My son has his own problems that are also well understood by us, and he is no prince charming either -- he has his bossiness, strong minded, wilfulness side to deal with too.  In the end, I didn't cause any of their problems, can't cure it, and can't control it.  (Favorite Al-Anon saying).  But I certainly can contribute to the problem.  So I am responsible to check myself, my intentions, which are not pure believe me - I have a mean side like the next person to rein in.      Thanks for caring,
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Nana on August 20, 2011, 10:50:20 AM
Dear Smiles

I also believe in second chances....I have had a few of them during my lifetimes and I am grateful for that.  Dil, son and also ourselves can change..... I hate to hear...I am this way and cant change....we all can change when we have to change....when not changing bring uneasiness and problems into our lives.

I relate also to your post when you said about dil's family pictures in their wall,,,it happened to me too.  I would feel awful when I saw many pictures of her family in her walls and a small picture, if any, of us.  I felt I was ridiculous for feeling this way because its a small issue, but it truly hurt me.   Sometimes small things in marriage/relationships all put together amount to something big. 

My dil is sometimes rude with her own mother.....but always include her in everything.  Her mother takes it all, or fights back but still they are very close.  Dil's mother told me once that when I was having problems with her daughter...because she was mean and disrespectful to me, she told her daughter "Remember you also have a son" (my gs) and this could happen to you too when your son grows up.  So even dil's mother even acknowledge that her daughter was treating us poorly. 

Now that things are good between all of us, dil is getting much more from us -- more baby-sitting and financial help when they need it.  Like Pen said....it is true that also with money "dancing the dog"...even if dil didnt seem to care when she was rejecting us.  Now she is enjoying all this help, as well as my son. 
Sometimes I wonder, would it be the same if we didnt have anything to offer them...gues I'll never know lol.  But I always gtive the benefit of a doubt. 

Any how, I loved this post because there are many perspectives and or opinions and we learn more reading about different ways of seeing things that sometimes we do not consider.


Thanks for being here.

Love
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on August 20, 2011, 11:01:00 AM
Thank you Pooh for everything.  And the money is an issue...it can be the silent partner/ negotiator.  I used to give DIL/son a lot when they were struggling through college, and then with the babies...but with the bad treatment/ feelings I had, I stopped.  Now I give personal gifts, no money.  We will put aside money for college educations.  We don't announce that we won't give them money, but I am sure they wonder wha' happened?  Why no more gravy train?  I say - good, for them to think they fell out of favor and maybe should check themselves.  Anyways, we live and learn to be and let be.  love back ;)
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Belle on August 22, 2011, 08:44:13 AM
I've thought a lot about this thread over the past few days.  The talk of "unequal" treatment of the FOOs really hit home for me, its another one of my MIL's thousand complaints.  And she is right, I will give her that.  She isn't treated equally. 

LOL - its funny that the issue of "smaller portraits" came up, because that was one of the very first of my MIL's snide and uneccessary comments.  DH and I had just moved in together (this was years ago), and we barely had furniture to sit on.  But we combined our two apartments into our home.  One of my most valued possessions is a 16x20 family wall portrait we had made with my grandmother before she passed away.  That, some family photo albums, and an antique tea set were all I took from her house before the estate sale.  We hung it in the hallway, along with numerous other pictures to form "the family wall."

The only picture hanging in the hallway of his family are an 8x10 of DH and his sisters (an OLD picture), some 5x7's of his nieces & nephews, and a 4x6 snapshot of his mom & dad taken years ago before DH was even born.  It was special to DH, still is.  We didn't have any other pictures of MIL or FIL to hang up, but that was THE first comment out of MIL's mouth when she walked down the hallway to the restroom:  "Why doesn't ooooooooour family get a big wall portrait?  (huff, puff) We are just as important (hand on hip, more huff puff)!!!" 

It caught me so off-guard, the only thing I could muster up was "well, did you provide one???  I'll hang it as soon as you send it down."

To this day, I've never received even one picture/portrait of them.  We haven't had contact with them in a very long time, but DH still kept their snapshot on the wall.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: QuietStorm on August 22, 2011, 09:21:41 AM
My MIL is always complaining about things being uneven.  I don't know if I can ever make things even.  Thing I believe should be fair but even is another story.  If my family provides us with more love and support we spend more time with them.

One big thing MIL complained about was gift giving being even.  I've always done my best to make gifts fair for everyone and not to over gift to one family or the other but MIL wants everything to be exactly the same or the same dollar amount or whatever...

I think that families have to understand that everything won't always be exactly the same between the two families because you have to take into account how people are being treated, the amount of time spent, the distance to travel etc.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Scoop on August 22, 2011, 09:34:39 AM
The thing *I* don't understand is all of this money flowing down to "the kids".  I will admit that my parents supported me when I was in University, but I was careful to not ask for "too much".  My Dad used to ask to 'borrow' money, just to find out how much I had in my wallet, and then he would grumble when I didn't even have 5$ to "lend" him, as he handed over a $20.

Once I moved out and got a job, my parents didn't give me any money.  I was on my own.  They helped me of course, but not in paying bills or handing over cash.  It was more that I didn't have a car and they would drive me to get a load of groceries or whatever.

My parents would give my brother 'gas money' whenever they came home to visit, but it's because they didn't want them to NOT come, because money was tight.  My Mom was so worried about her DS, DIL & DGD that she would always ask if they needed money, one time, when my Mom asked what they were up to that day, my DB answered that he had taken the baby downtown to do some begging.  Well, that stopped the money offers, because they were handling it just fine.

Neither my DH nor my SIL ever got money from their parents (after they were out of the house).  Again, help was offered in terms of hand-me-downs or sweat-equity at our house, but not actual outlays of cash.

Could it be generational already?  My SIL is in her mid-30's, so it would seem that she would be lumped in with these "kids" but really, who are these people who expect their parents to 'keep' them into their adulthood?

AND even then, even THEN, I am totally working hard to "pay it back" to my Mom, for all the money she HAS put out for me/us.  And because she's stubborn, I've had to be sneaky!  I actually had to tell her not to worry about an "accounting" between us, that she in fact doesn't owe us any money, because she's always been generous, and now it's our turn to be generous with her.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pooh on August 22, 2011, 11:31:50 AM
I don't get it either Scoop.  Mine were allowed to live at home as long as they attended college and I would pay basic utilites, food, house payment.  Anything else they wanted as far as "fun money" required a job.  Two choices, attend school or get a job and get out on your own.  Youngest didn't and worked, but after about a year of him not seeming to interested in moving out, it became "It's time for you to do something with your life.  I don't care what you decided to make your goal.  If your goal is to be the Manager at McDonalds, then get on it, but you need to move forward."  He joined the military!  Lol.  Works for me.

Belle and Quietstorm, I agree that I don't think you can ever keep things even in families.  It's unrealistic and makes sense that the family you are closer to would have more pictures or easier to shop for.  I think as an MIL my problem would be when pictures were provided and you walked in and only the DILs family was displayed.  When I was on my DILs FB, she removed all the pictures that had any of my family in there from her wedding shots, only putting those that had her family on there.  When I remarried, and she was in our wedding, along with my OS, YS and SD, I tagged her with all the photos that she was in.  She removed them.  In that case, a missing picture is worth a thousand words!
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Belle on August 22, 2011, 01:38:41 PM
Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone "got" that?

I don't know, my FOO has its issues too.  We have family "snits."  There's always someone who's not doing what they should be doing, and so on.  But at the end of the day, we love one another, and its unconditional.  That doesn't mean we let one another treat us badly, we just don't treat eachother that way.  If my mom were to say something out of line (it happens), she apologizes immediately...otherwise she feels horrible.  I'm like that too.

But DH's FOO....wow.  Constant family drama.  One person's peril is family business, if MIL is mad, then SIL will call you to tell you about it, and nothing is sacred.  And then you have those "oh-I'm-the-PEACE-maker" people in his family that put themselves in the middle, and all they do is keep the pot stirred.  Someone is always stabbing someone in the back, and thre is NO neutral territory in those situations...you MUST pick a side and if you pick the wrong one, you are ousted for at least 5-10 years.  Its too much for me to deal with.  DH told me from the very beginning, even before I met his parents, how his family is and that I didn't have to participate.  We live far enough away that we don't have to.  DH moved away from all that madness before he ever met me. 

But that drama, the constant whirlwind of daytime soap opera-like madness is why certain members of his FOO don't get equal treatment.  They're not  loving and supportive of us, our marriage, or our children.  Shoot, they're hardly even civil, some of them are barely tolerable for 10 minutes.  Even when we were on "civil" terms, his mother hardly ever called, asked about the children, anything.  She'd call only if she needed a place to crash for a few days on her way to somewhere else, or she'd write a nasty letter to us when she was feeling slighted.  And then at Christmas she'd want us there, pronto, because that was hhhhhhhher holiday tradition.  Psssssht, yeah right! 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pooh on August 22, 2011, 02:05:10 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if everyone got that?  All families have tiffs and say things wrong sometimes.  Everybody's human and it's easy to say, "I'm sorry."
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: pam1 on August 22, 2011, 02:42:36 PM
Scoop, I have similar thoughts.  My background was similar, my parents helped me out some with college but most of it was paid through the military.  Other than that, there was no real need for their monetary help.  I don't understand this epidemic of young adults and (haha, ok adults in their 30's, is that still considered young?) needing parental money support. 

I didn't realize until this year that DHs parents were supporting two of his sisters b/c they don't live within their means and apparently MIL doesn't feel they should have to.  To me, that's entitlement the parents taught them.  They will probably never fully support themselves but they are also paying for it, heavily.  They don't do anything without their parents and what MIL says, you better believe it's gonna go.  Ick, no amount of money could keep me in that but since it works for them, who am I to say anything? lol
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: luise.volta on August 22, 2011, 08:00:32 PM
Beautiful!  :) (Statement and guy!)
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pen on August 22, 2011, 08:16:06 PM
Quote from: Pooh on August 22, 2011, 11:31:50 AM
Belle and Quietstorm, I agree that I don't think you can ever keep things even in families.  It's unrealistic and makes sense that the family you are closer to would have more pictures or easier to shop for.  I think as an MIL my problem would be when pictures were provided and you walked in and only the DILs family was displayed.  When I was on my DILs FB, she removed all the pictures that had any of my family in there from her wedding shots, only putting those that had her family on there.  When I remarried, and she was in our wedding, along with my OS, YS and SD, I tagged her with all the photos that she was in.  She removed them.  In that case, a missing picture is worth a thousand words!

Yup, our pics aren't anywhere to be seen either, even though they have some of us from the wedding. When DIL needed pics of DS as a child for a presentation the wedding photographer was putting together she did not use those that included any of the rest of us, but her childhood  photos included her FOO. I'm not stupid, I get it! It's beyond "I feel more comfortable around my own FOO." We've got a major inequality happening in our situation. As I've said before, I sometimes feel like a salmon whose usefulness is over - spawn & die, LOL. Just point me upstream *sigh*
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pooh on August 23, 2011, 06:39:46 AM
Well the good news is Pen, if we are swimming upstream....we are leaving behind the crap!  Lol.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: pam1 on August 23, 2011, 07:25:45 AM
There are zero pictures of DD, DH and I in PILs home.  There are tons of pix of DH pre-Pam though.  And tons of pix with DHs siblings and their spouses and children.  I don't know what to make of it but whatever.  We don't hang many portraits at home, mostly DD school pix so that's one less thing I have to make sure is equal :)
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on August 23, 2011, 12:30:51 PM
I had to hear you from my heart, Pen - and empathize:  "I'm not stupid, I get it! It's beyond 'I feel more comfortable around my own FOO.' We've got a major inequality happening in our situation. As I've said before, I sometimes feel like a salmon whose usefulness is over - spawn & die, LOL. Just point me upstream *sigh*"  You are not alone - it is the circle of life, n'est pas?   Hugs,         
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: herbalescapes on August 23, 2011, 12:37:44 PM
On the original topic, it may be that the DS wants the Princess Bride to make all the decisions.  It may be that DS just doesn't care about where the holidays are spent or what gifts are bought or how often calls are made.  Think about how much time a woman spends picking out a wedding gown compared to how much time a man spends renting a tux. Men and women tend to have different priroities.  It causes problems in romantic relationships, so maybe it causes more problems than we think in mother-son relationships, which turn into MIL-DIL problems.

The things that matter to a MIL may not matter so much to her son.  He may be happy with one phone call a year or seeing his FOO every third Christmas, so he doesn't make the effort and doesn't understand why his mom is complaining.  Since he doesn't understand the complaint, he can't see why he should spend time trying to fix it.  Even if MIL thinks her DS is listening to her complaints and requests, it may all be in-one-ear-and-out-the-other.  It may boil down, in some cases, to men are from mars and women are from venus. 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on August 23, 2011, 12:49:51 PM
Thanks Nana for relating to my hurt and always giving the benefit of the doubt.  I meant to tell ya sooner and have been thinking / re-reading our posts here. 

Belle - maybe you being the one to solve the problem of no ILs picture is the solution to show you care and it matters to you?  Just a thought. 

Thanks Quietstorm for your honesty - we are not cut-&-dried about gift giving, and we try to feel we are being fair, which is different actually than being fair, even-steven and all that.  My feelings do matter. 

Scoop,  Pooh and Pam,  I just relate totally.  The adults today think they need more help from their parents than we did - and yet maybe they do???? The cost of housing, downpayments, cars, college - everything keeps going up and up and up.  So do salaries, but it is still tough to get ahead these days, to have a home to raise kids and pay for their college.  I remember when there were no "student loans" only scholarships for the underprivileged or athletes.  We thought everyone deserved to go to college, not just the poor and rich, and thus financial aid was born for middle class too.

Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on August 23, 2011, 12:50:42 PM
Totally agree herbalescapes -- that's why MIL need DIL to help build family ties, right? 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on August 23, 2011, 01:10:14 PM
Also I want to say that yeah, some kids are like footballs and need a good kick :)  And there is a difference in raising sons than daughters in USA.   And also I do want to help my family if they are helping themselves, like living in a budget and spending wisely.  My DS asked a couple times on our last visit how does anyone live on $60k a year?  I listened and listened to him and then understood better that they ARE trying to change their spending habits.  I can see he is trying to relate how he was brought up to where he is at now -- he is a lot better off than we ever were so it is different for him.  We didn't have the money to eat at restaurants, so I planned meals, cooked breakfast, packed lunches, avoided the high cost of convenience foods, bought clothes at garage sales, clearance, off-season and managed the household living expenses within our budget.  Personally, I didn't go to a beauty salon, no manis, pedis, no hair coloring and told myself I don't need any of that.  I prided myself on being a smart shopper, frugal, thrifty and able to feed and clothe the family.  We still didn't have much money to save, invest for college or retirement.  I think tough times do help you learn to budget and I won't take that away from my DS and DIL.  I think raising sons is a Men Are From Mars thing - you find out how far they can go by stretching them, because you know that either you toughen up or life breaks you down.  They need to be tough and strong for their families.  My 2-cents worth, is just that. 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: luise.volta on August 23, 2011, 03:35:50 PM
I agree, Smiles. I left a marriage after 18 years. We had a home with 180 view of Puget Sound, had a cabin cruiser...belonged to the Yacht Club. Got it? I left and eventually moved to hook up with a guy in Florida who left me there. (Home is WA State.) I was in charge of medical records in a hospital and made $85. a MONYH. I rented a place on an alley that was lined with ripe garbage cans...and I saved $1.00 a month for something for myself. Many years later, back in WA...I left another 18 year marriage and a waterfront home with all the trimmings...and hit the road, alone, in an old motorhome. There is a knack to all of that. You lower your standard of living to where it works with your income. Those who establish a standard of living and then try to pay for it when they can't are on a serious learning curve. because they're trying to do it backwards. Sending love...
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: justanoldgrandma on August 23, 2011, 03:50:10 PM
As someone said, it is true that young men aren't into the pictures of family on the wall of homes or on Facebook; it seems to be the planning of the young woman or her mother or husband's mother to do the albums, plan the social calendar, etc...... our sons work away from home and in the home, helping out, and there's no time to do all that even if they were so inclined; so they aren't thinking, gee this isn't fair to my FOO.  They are less into the equality thing.  (I know many, many young wives work away from home; I always did.  Our holiday planning was shared by both sides of the family.)

Seeing daughters calling their mothers, arranging visits, etc., for the first time, made me wish I had had daughters instead of sons; but then, no I couldn't envision not having our sons even though they may phone once a week instead of once a day.  And I had gotten off FB so I don't see the dils post pixs of their FOO and very few if any of us; pictures on the wall?  I'm used to it.  Whatever bothers me I try to ignore.

Some sons (mine, for instance,) do want to stay in contact and do want family dinners and for us to be a big part of gc's lives; they called for cooking advice from me when single and call dh for advice on cars and repairs.   Dss do expect for us to see them around the holiday time (no, they don't plan the calendar, my dils do) but they do help their wives choose our gifts and bday, Mother's/Father's DAy, etc. cards which is huge.  They do care..... they just don't think that the pictures and such a priority bc they are the breadwinners in the families and frankly, swamped.  Pictures are more "women's work" to them, right or wrong; dh feels the same; doesn't care.  They aren't even on FB;  so we Skype or email or call.  Not too often; they are busy w their own lives.

Dils and their FOO (in our case) insist on The DAy get togethers bc it's tradition; so ours have been put off to other times bc we can't change it and also, why make everyone miserable when it does no good.  Sons have other things to consider and know their wives are happier that way.  They know dh and I are not going to have a tantrum and risk losing the family.  What's sad is our dils' FOO insisting on their traditions, disregarding our happenings.   Wonder why.... when we all get all fine when together.

Not all; my dh's family and my family took turns on holiday dates and as a dil I never dreamed of not including my ILs who did feel free to express their expectations w no fear of a "cut off" if they spoke up.  My IL (sil) are great in considering my family.

I do hope the husband and wife both think of the others' families; why cause anyone any unhappiness and feeling left out just bc "they can?" 

BTW, I do know some paternal MILs are just as insistent as some maternal MILs on holidays and such;  sharing and consideration pays off in good will.  Good for the gc to experience, too.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on August 23, 2011, 04:55:03 PM
I just love this thread - thanks luise and justanoldgrandma for keeping it going with your wisdom.  Certainly sounds like you know the highs and lows of budgeting and how to start, stop and go again in life, luise.  I admire that in you.  It is kinda sad too, Justanoldgrandma, to think we have to be afraid of "cut off"s from our families because we spout off.  Thanks, I feel I am connecting with you, and I do feel understood, and I want to say that it is okay that we do not always really "get it".  Sometimes the shoe is on the other foot, you know?  Funny thing about that learning curve.  I love my sons and honor my motherhood.  It certainly looks and feels somewhat the same sometimes, regardless of how old I am.  I still have to set limits on their behaviors :)  Anyways, I am cleaning out my home office getting ready for the fall school year, and came across this and want to share it with you all.  It came from an art project at UW Medical Center, Seattle, WA.  I don't know if it is still there in the lobby.  But I liked it a lot.  It was a two-door closet that allowed the viewer to stand and look through a peephole in one door and see this room; and then you could move over and see through the other door's peephole at the same room.  Only, what you saw was somewhat different, you saw the same room, but what you saw in it depended on which door you looked through.  This is what the artist posted next to it:

Our view of reality is conditioned by our position in space and time not by our personalities as we would like to think.  Thus, every interpretation of reality is based upon a unique position...two paces east or west and the position is changed. -- Gayle Bard

Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Belle on August 24, 2011, 07:45:50 AM
QuoteOur view of reality is conditioned by our position in space and time not by our personalities as we would like to think.  Thus, every interpretation of reality is based upon a unique position...two paces east or west and the position is changed. -- Gayle Bard

How wonderful is that!
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pen on August 24, 2011, 08:34:16 AM
Our perceptions are formed by our limited view at the time....wow, great quote, thanks.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on August 24, 2011, 11:24:17 AM
Thanks, glad you like it.   :)   This is the time of year when I get inspired. 

"I can be changed by what happens to me. But I refuse to be reduced by it."   "I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better."
— Maya Angelou
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on August 24, 2011, 11:29:53 AM
Maya Angelou nails the generation part of MILs and DILs that we have been talking around lately: "The truth is, we make a mistake when we think that generations can be separated. The truth is you need me so that I have shoulders you can stand on, and we need you because you have shoulders somebody else can stand on. We are one."
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Begonia on August 25, 2011, 07:01:07 AM
Just read through some of the posts in this thread...so many wise posts here!  Something that seems to come across is the ability of those posting to cinch in our belts and work hard for financial success.  Luise's post about having a lot of "things" and then not having them and learning how to live that way said it all.  I have done the same...I could live on dumpster diving if I had to!! 

But my DS and DD are so wasteful.   And my DIL is totally a princess---she shops designer everything for the whole family and throws out more food...if the kids eat one bite of a chicken breast the rest goes in the garbage.  My SIL basically turns over his paycheck to my DD who has had one bankruptcy already. It is very difficult to watch their spending.  I changed my beneficiaries because of this.   

Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pen on August 25, 2011, 08:07:37 AM
Wise decision, Begonia, but I'm sure you wish it could be different.

What you describe sounds wasteful to me, but to someone else it might be normal. I have a friend who doesn't have her clothes dryer hooked up, she hangs out everything. But the food waste at her house is too much for me! I feel virtuous if I hang out half my laundry, lol, but I can use leftovers a million different ways. My SM thought we were wasteful when we paid for DS's college tuition. Perceptions are funny..

I too know people who spend like crazy after a bankruptcy & foreclosure. It boggles the mind.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: justanoldgrandma on August 25, 2011, 10:15:24 AM
Quote from: Smilesback@u on August 24, 2011, 11:29:53 AM
Maya Angelou nails the generation part of MILs and DILs that we have been talking around lately: "The truth is, we make a mistake when we think that generations can be separated. The truth is you need me so that I have shoulders you can stand on, and we need you because you have shoulders somebody else can stand on. We are one."

This says it all.  If we would only realize that we can be there for each other in countless ways, all the petty things would fall away (speaking for myself here!)  Friends sometimes take the place of family bc family isn't always tolerant and loving enough or available or whatever.  I just know we help our family (our parents and siblings and now the younger generation)  more than we do anyone else and that our youngsters and their wives will be there for us when we need them;  already we have gained priceless joy from experiencing the closeness of gc that just melts our hearts.  Was it Robert Frost who said in a poem, (paraphrasing here):  "family is where you can go and they can't turn you away."
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Begonia on August 25, 2011, 11:46:43 AM
Pen:  Yes, I do wish things were different but the past is the best indication of the future and if things have not gotten better as far as my DD and DS acknowledging me in the last five years it is doubtful things will change now.  Doesn't mean we don't love each other under the layers of hurt.  Oprah said one day, "Forgiveness is giving up the hope that the past could have been any different." 

(Off topic, please sorry but this just came to me). My mother passed on in 2006.  She kept everyone informed, at peace, and never held grudges (except towards my DIL who never even gave my mom the time of day).  Our family fell apart after she left us.  Nobody has stepped into her grandmotherly role and I think we are all lost without her role as a soothing go-between or a good laugh about our antics.  She was a hero to all of us.  Neither my DD or DS can even go to the town where she lived because it is too painful, they say they miss her too much. 

But my sister and I are different women than my mom: we love to travel, hate to cook.  We do get along great, which is just a blessing since we are 10 years apart.  But we have worked hard at it too, there have been rocky times as expected.  My mother would say, if we were having a tiff, "Oh you girls are both so stubborn."  Then we could laugh and move on. 

MY DD and DS take every word so seriously, there is no joking or moving forward.  So I have to be a good role model for my GC and move my life along. 

Thanks to ALL of you, even those of you who just read and don't post...because we are all strong together. 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: nicelady on August 30, 2011, 12:03:45 AM
Oh goodness, this thread had me 'thinking allsorts',even brought a smile to my face, this is the similar situation I am going through with my ds,and his gf,[not married yet].
Reading all of these ww & dil thoughts has given me 'food for thought'.
As a parent I've only ever wanted what is 'fair & right', nothing more nor less, to be told I'll give you 1/2 hour here and there,of my time,and now no time,leaves us  feeling 'less than'.
We noted gf ignored ds for hours upon end,if we wanted to spend time together with ds.
Ds has stated gf 'creates',and it's stressfull trying to keep us all happy.Thus why he wants us to leave him alone,so gf is happy, 'fair and right', I can only hope, oneday.

Health issues  this past year didn't help and so painful ds didn't come to visit me in hospital.
For now trying to step away look after myself and dh
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pen on August 30, 2011, 12:16:09 AM
There were no warnings in any of the baby books I read that stuff like this could happen after raising a son. It came as quite a shock to me.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: nicelady on August 30, 2011, 01:45:11 AM
I wonder what we would have done if the baby books told us this,lol.
I understand my son is 'angry', very much with me because he couldn't do as he pleased,we had rules n boundaries, like good parents do,protecting to keep safe etc,and like many mums here I  did all that was necessary,and now I'm at the forefront of his anger.
We have tried every which way, compromising etc,to no avail.
I have hibernated  for far to long, now it's time for me to be proactive, as hard as it is somedays to put one foot in front of the other.
I now receive some spiritual counselling and it has certainly helped me to at least , understand ,I cannot control my ds behaviour ,and his choice ,but I can control my own,albeit the walk is long and slow, but progress is progress no matter how little,one day at a time.
thoughts and prayers with all.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pooh on August 30, 2011, 05:41:59 AM
I think if a book had told us this would have happened, we wouldn't have done anything different.  I would have set the same boundaries, discipline, rules and such.  They would have received the same amount of love.  What does that tell us ladies?  We know we did our jobs because we would have done them the same even if we knew and still made mistakes because we are human.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on August 30, 2011, 08:33:29 AM
My heart aches sometimes thinking of how I *should* be treated and am not as I can read we all have these feelings at times.   I have not lost my
identity by becoming a MIL.  I used to set limits, boundaries on how I wanted to be treated by my sons.  Somewhere along the way, I got stepped
on, and it hurt.  Now, I re-learn to detach so my sons can lead their own lives.  I wish them well and will stay connected in love. 
That is my stance today...I wish them well, detachment with love, not anger.  It is easy to have this saying as a guiding light, and another thing
to walk the talk. 

When we visit my DS/DIL in Thanksgiving, I determined that I will be a help in the kitchen, and not the head chef.  I suggested to son to make
it easy on themselves by buying the *dinner* from Safeway.  Son got mad and said if I didn't want to help with the dinner that's okay (it is an
issue for DIL to cook for DS family).  I told him he was jumping to conclusions as I am happy to help with salad and dessert.  So next step,
I will follow through and put a lot of love into that salad and dessert.  I will not behave as if I am expected to buy and cook the Thanksgiving dinner.

For some reason, it does seem that here is my role as a MIL, setting limits and being happy with my own life, esp when I visit - Did you see
Madagascar?  *Should we tell them...no, just smile and wave (girls)  ;D 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: nicelady on August 30, 2011, 05:47:59 PM
Hi all.
I agree we wouldn't have done it any different ,even if a book,mentioned this,I would have given same rules/boundaries,shown the huge amount of love.
My ds used to love the hugs n cuddles,I did this as I didn't experience this myself as a child, and decided I would be there 100% for my children,no matter what.I vowed to tell n show them as I know for me I missed that terribly.
My ds has at least acknowledged that.
A love for a gf/dil is different to the love of parents, however it can and should  be shared,but some gf/dil I perceive are not happy or willing to share, like I have read if ds has no 'spine' to say, anything, but is made to 'choose', then that's not 'fair or right'.
 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: luise.volta on August 30, 2011, 06:04:19 PM
"Fair" and "right" often don't have much to do with what many us us are up against. Each situation is different and we have to be careful with generalities.

I think I would give my eldest son less attention, if I had it to do over again, and my younger son more.  Yet it the eldest who hated me and youngest who is my very dear friend. Guess it's just as well I don't have it to do over, come to think of it.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: pam1 on August 30, 2011, 06:11:19 PM
Quote from: nicelady on August 30, 2011, 05:47:59 PM
Hi all.
I agree we wouldn't have done it any different ,even if a book,mentioned this,I would have given same rules/boundaries,shown the huge amount of love.
My ds used to love the hugs n cuddles,I did this as I didn't experience this myself as a child, and decided I would be there 100% for my children,no matter what.I vowed to tell n show them as I know for me I missed that terribly.
My ds has at least acknowledged that.
A love for a gf/dil is different to the love of parents, however it can and should  be shared,but some gf/dil I perceive are not happy or willing to share, like I have read if ds has no 'spine' to say, anything, but is made to 'choose', then that's not 'fair or right'.


This is really interesting to me, Nicelady.  I love my FOO, a lot but that has nothing to do with the amount of time I spend with them.  It's always been to me that our love is strong enough to survive
not seeing each other for awhile. 

While in my husbands family it comes across to me that they are lacking in true affection and security in one anothers love.  By pushing for more and more and demanding their expectations be
fulfilled at the drop of the hat, it comes across that my MIL is not sure at all how much her DS or anyone else loves her for that matter.  I think at that point it is more about her than any common
in law relationship.  She's not accepting what is offered, IMO.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: nicelady on August 30, 2011, 09:23:13 PM
Hi,all.
one thing I tried was to be 'equal' in all aspects of my ds's upbringing,even making sure one didn't have without the other, even down to last $, to be fair.

pam, I understand .
It's difficult to put into words, yes I do feel insecure, I don't think I'm demanding 'more /more', we asked for some fairness,  that  he at least kept in touch,or come for tea once a week,or pop in for 'coffee', but to be told I'll give you 1/2 hour of my time,  now n again,to be 'allocated' a time birthdays/xmas etc, we made compromises time after time, because gf demands he be with her at her foo 24/7, our ds words gf 'hissyfits' if doesn't get own way.

I 'm wondering if I'm not humble enough to accept what is being 'offered'.

There was true affection/security,family/friends even his peers, would say what a good relationship we all had,a girl once stated to me,your ds is always talking about you n his dad, he really loves you, even some of his peers saying they wished they had a good relationship with their mums like he had with me, that was up until this gf saw how we interacted.
I mean talking,laughing, hugs,kiss goodbye,just pleasant interaction, not over the top,however,gf glared at me when son gave me hug goodbye, she didn't like it,that day he also asked for my opinion on something he was wearing, which I had brought for him at xmas, before I could respond, gf, stated, it doesn't matter, I'm your gf, with this I shrugged my shoulders and smiled, after that day our ds, stopped the pleasant interaction, 'fun/hugs laughter',and began ignoring us altogether.
Until it became unbearable, and he left.
We didn't hear from him for apx 3-4months, until I got 'breast cancer',he did send me 'love n hugs', but still didn't visit me in hospital, again that would have been nice, and a way he could have shown his love n support, but,he didn't.He did start to come around again after apx 7 months, to help dh in garden we had laughs, fun etc,it was good.
Gf would txt if he was with us, 'are you enjoying yourself', he replied, no, but he appeared our old ds around us ,even saying he enjoyed us, but had to keep gf happy,and that means being with her & foo 24/7,again ds words.
He did leave gf & foo house for awhile,although still saw gf, to go live with friend ,and we saw him at least 1-2 times week,but last 3-4 months he's moved back into gf & foo home, and we are back to how we were 2 yrs ago,no contact or interaction.

Maybe my expectations are high, what I would have liked is some balance & fairness for both sets parents/family ,not  all one sided as what we have now,and having to accept what is offered,because gf insists.
Yes he does have a good heart,is kind loving, but he doesn't have 'spine' to say anything, because gf ignores him for hours/days on end if he does.

His 1st gf, they would come n go, visit each family, no set times, or limits, a real joy, but sometimes things do not happen according to what we envisage.

I am trying to be as diplomatic as possible.

I have 'issues' with regards to my own childhood upbringing and I daresay there is an element of 'me' in there, which I work on very hard, to not make it 'about me'.
I too am hoping that our love is strong enough to survive this,I'm praying that everyday.

I do not expect to see/speak to my ds 24/7 ,once /twice week would be nice, but that's a wish.
Why do some gf/dil,  not like the mum/son relationship, and call their partners 'mummy's boys', and  in our case insist it's all their way,or the highway.

I have offered to my ds to invite gf over many times, to try and build some foundation of respect for each other, but  he states , [that's when he did communicate], no, you wouldn't get along, she has a rude manner is opinionated,and you would react,mum, because I know you don't tolerate rudeness and disrespect.
He knows me well, but I explained,  I would 'grin bear & tolerate it', for him, just so we could be a part of his life.

I in no way want this to be misconstrued, as sometimes writing doesn't always come across, as we intend, but know this is written with the utmost consideration, without sounding, either judgmental or bitter.

It's just written from a mum who is extremely sad,hurt ,at the moment trying to process every thought, trying to reach an amicable solution.I don't want to fight,argue, enough of that, we have sat with ds many, many times 'talked/explained tried to reason',compromise, but I'm not sure what else I can do to 'mend' the fracture we now have within our family.I didn't think wanting your child to communicate,  & to participate,for reasonable time in family events,ie birthdays,xmas etc, was to much to ask.

maybe you could help me understand,and I am 'missing the point',I'm open to try anything,I'm not closed minded.

peace love hope & prayers. 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 07:43:18 AM
I understand what you are saying nicelady and bravo to you for noticing your own insecurities that are probably playing into it.  I think for us to truly heal, we do have to examine ourselves first.  I can always change things about myself. 

One thing I did stop saying was 'it's not fair'.  As I have matured (cough, cough) I have gained the wisdom that life isn't fair period.  If it was, then everyone would get the same amount of pay, vacation and perks.  I have always worked hard and still struggle at times to afford new tires but yet watch some people take the easy way out of everything, don't work at all and go on lavish vacations 4 times a year.  Fair?  I think not. 

I am all about quality versus quantity.  I guess I am weird but I in no way ever expected either son to come by or call once or twice a week.  That's alot of pressure and they have lives to live.  I had no expectations of a set time frame.  I guess if I had to pick something, a phone call once a month and a visit a couple of times a year?  Would like to see them at some family events if possible which happens maybe 4 times a year?  And I'm flexible on that.  Show up for one and I would be tickled.

Sure, if there are GK's you would hope to see them more, but I would be good with skype, pictures, phone calls with that too.  I really didn't have any expectations of my adult kids being around more than that, because that was what I always thought my job as a Mother was.  To prepare them to live their own lives and just enjoy being on the sidelines.  I wanted to be on the sidelines, not be benched!
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: pam1 on August 31, 2011, 08:02:25 AM
Nicelady, I echo Pooh's "bravo!"  Good on you for acknowledging your perspective is playing a role. 

I understand what you mean.  Sometimes reading MILs stories I'm reminded of when a good girl friend gets a new boyfriend and they fall in love and girl friend totally forgets about her
other girl friends for awhile.

Did you guys ever have that happen?  It's happened to me a lot and I think it's just one of those things.  Young couples get so caught up in each other and new love, it's exciting and all
consuming.  Kind of like a drug, they're in a fog and fair/equal or even consideration towards others is put on the wayside for awhile.  But when that fog is lifted, all of sudden their
stomping around for their old friends...lol

I think some of the paternal MILs are getting sort of caught in this fog.  Maybe the trick is to ride it out and let them come to you when you're ready.  When I think of my girl friends in the
love fog, I doubt they'd seek me out when the fog has lifted if I had called too much and bothered her. 

Just a thought
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 08:17:08 AM
That's a good point pam and understandable.  I think that would be easy to swallow for many, even me,  if they had "forgotten" everyone.  I remember the love fog and doing that to people but the entire world disappeared.  We ignored everyone...Lol. 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: pam1 on August 31, 2011, 09:56:04 AM
Yeah, but I'm thinking a girl would naturally turn to her mother when she is in love and a boy wouldn't?  At least, that's what I've seen and experienced. 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pooh on August 31, 2011, 10:33:22 AM
I'm sure they would.  I still expect most daughters to be closer to their FOO anyway.  I think that's actually just reality.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: nicelady on August 31, 2011, 07:09:51 PM
Hi all, thankyou for your support.

Oh yes I know where I 'fall down', my entire 'mothering' has been about 'family' and how important it is, coming from a family where  love/affection was never displayed ,brothers met dils and we never saw them,I witnessed my own mum,and I to left, it's only now I begin to understand why my mum acted as she did, but thats to long a story now.
It's my own 'inner' child of abandonment,I get that.
I understand that 'my fear' is repeating itself, as that's how I feel, the same 'emptiness of abandonment' I felt as a child.They say 'history repeats'.

Why it's so hard is ds lives at gf foo house and spends every momment there, am I envious ,yes of course I am,especially when gf mum interfered in enabling my ds, and 'took over' our parenting role.GF/gf mum 'planted seeds' into ds head, yes he is an adult, but ds is easily influenced,always has been.A 'people pleaser' .

When ds was coming around,he told us this, we talked about it,and we feel this gf mum' overstepped the 'boundary',none of us parent the same,each parent has 'their way', but I can say without fear or favour, never ever would I overstep the 'boundary'.It's not my place to say another parent is 'wrong n I'm right' or vise /versa, I say we parent differently, and as such if how they choose to parent is upto them, but I'd appreciate this gf mum stepping out of our parenting.
Of course I'm willing to listen to constructive critisism, anyway I can improve, I'm willing to learn.

On advice given to us,My dh went to speak with gf df & dm ,df was polite, didn't really say much, but dm was very vocal in her assumption of our family, as ds had also 'spun a web', of not 'quite the truth', took off the 'sharp points',played the 'victim', again a long story,but from the onset of how gf dm affronted my dh, 'waving arms in air',it appeared not 'adult like' or even respectful.
T o explain the whole story begin to end  would take a long time, and I have spoken with various  people to try and comprehend, and people who know me ,know I tell the truth, not 'my truth' but the truth what was stated from both sides, I also keep a journal, as I grew up with 'lies/deciet', and was led to beleive 'things were in my mind',they weren't as I later found out through 'other family members',this is why it's important for me to teach my ds to be mindful of when telling others his 'side',that he tells the 'whole truth'.

We do know ds, and we do know gf demanded ds be at her beck n call 24/7,yes the 'fog' I also understand that, trying to understand some gf/fdils, though are not satisfied with 24/7, gf has her foo,and our ds.

One of the things gf mum stated to dh when he went o speak with them july 2010,  was prior xmas 2009,  that was 1st year ds left,wasn't good for us,  every year as we had done since ds could write, they had to give us xmas list, we asked for his , for 2 months which he didn't give us, so instead I got little bit's n bobs' & brought a beautiful card to 'our son' with lovely verse, in it .I wrote, this xmas is different to others, however when you decide what you would like we can go on a huge spending spree, just let us know, ended with 'all the tea in china all the stars in the sky' thats how much you are loved, never forget it,which we had always written in there cards since little.
Ds cried when he read it,and said he would let us know.
GF mum berated dh for this, stating ,no child wants to go 'shopping' with their parents, dh tried to explain that we understand that but he could go shopping by himself to look then tell us what he would like , bear in mind my ds went shopping every week with gf,& gf mum,and just recently gf mum went overseas with her ds on shopping trip, am I missing something here, or does this sound like 'double standard',sightly hypocritical, cos I'm sure wondering why, is it ok for gf/gf mum and yet we are told we are wrong,for wanting same.

I apologise if sometimes I go a little overboard ,I cannot always articulate in writing as when I'm speaking 'face to face', that always appears easier  for me.

As the months draw closer and holiday times are coming, I'm dreading it,I'm going to try to be 'humble' although it's hard for me, & knowing gf/gf mum 'demand' he be there, if he states he will visit, which will be a positive, how do I handle it if he says I can only give you 2hrs,either xmas or boxing day, as have to be with gf & foo, I'm thinking how stressful it will be knowing we have to 'give in' to whats been allocated to us by, gf/gf mum. I 've always maintained to include/share holidays with OS gf/foo,and would love to do same with younger ds, but I can't fight, I'm tired.

I've considered  saying ,well thats not really acceptable, but I'm at a loss to know what to say or do, any suggestions, please.

It's fathers day here on sunday, havn't heard from ds, so not sure if he will even visit, dh, he hasn't experienced this sort of pain before, and he is struggling to, although I have some kind of 'experience' from my childhood,I hope for dh sake, ds remembers ,those good times with dad.
peace love hope & prayers to all 

Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: luise.volta on August 31, 2011, 08:03:32 PM
We just have to stop trying to understand it and stop getting stuck in expectations. My husband didn't even get a card from his son on Father's Day and they live an hour from here. And on his 100th birthday next month, they are going to be away on a trip.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Rose799 on August 31, 2011, 08:13:30 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on August 31, 2011, 08:03:32 PM
We just have to stop trying to understand it and stop getting stuck in expectations. My husband didn't even get a card from his son on Father's Day and they live an hour from here. And on his 100th birthday next month, they are going to be away on a trip.

I can't answer for ds, but I bet I know of a few hundred "cyber daughters" that would love to be there to help celebrate Val's 100th!  Love you, Luise
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pen on August 31, 2011, 08:25:57 PM
I'm having a hard time with this. I think it's sad when our "white hairs," which is a name of respect in some cultures, aren't honored.

How did we miss teaching our kids about this stuff? What happens to a society when there are no consequences for those who only think of themselves?

I guess I'm having a rough day; too much selfishness & impoliteness (outright anger, actually) directed at me today in the workplace. I've had it; hope there's a calorie or two left for a glass of wine, lol. And sign me up for the birthday party! I'd love to be there!
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: luise.volta on August 31, 2011, 08:33:54 PM
Sending lots of love, Pen. There are days that take us down...we all have them. I love you.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pen on August 31, 2011, 08:37:22 PM
And me you...you're a treasure, L.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: nicelady on August 31, 2011, 09:45:17 PM
Agh yes the expectations, it is hard to realise those and 'drop them' or put them to the side.

Some of my expectations, were a compromise, and an agreed upon, time/date etc, with ds, but then changed, without ds advising us,'plan changes', bc gf, demanded he be with her, fine, I can accept, a 'change' ,but to ignore  us when things were already in place,by a 'no show' not even a txt, at least that would be courteous.
I feel when something is agreed upon, then it's not an unrealistic expectation, but when the 'agreed upon' is not followed through then that expectation is 'violated',and thats what causes the inner turmoil.
He lives with gf foo 10 min drive away.

I' m sending you birthday wishes to pass on, from a 'newbie'.
That's a huge milestone,and a pity ds  does not or choose to see or acknowledge that.

'pen'
yes the cultures that 'respect' the 'white hairs', as I beleive they say 'honour thy family'.
I believe I was teaching my DS that, well I at least got it 50% right, OS is proof of that,but in saying that younger ds was like that to up until new gf.
He even had our family name tattoed on his arm along with 'loyalty respect' and 'you get what you give', not that I condone or agreed to these 'tattoos',  but it was not another 'battle' I chose to engage in with him  ,it's his life and choice,just somewhere he's forgotten what they mean.

I have often discussed this with friends about the me society and impoliteness that appears around, yes I agree it's an 'anger' that is displayed, and I'm unable to comprehend that sort of mindset.
I'm a believer, and tried to teach my ds's .do unto others' etc', and treat others as you want to be treated, treat girls with utmost respect,do not use them for your own gratitude, etc.

a bit off track but,

YDs 1st gf, mum whom I got along with well, once said to me, your yds is so lovely and puts up with so much from my dd he has so much patience with her, treats her like a queen and she doesn't treat him to well, but ds stood by and took it,we did try and explain to him,that gf had no problems with how well we all treated her for apx year, but,how gf was treating him at this point, was not nice and playing games, up until she well, I'll stop there.
I think what I'm trying to explain is that sometimes, you think you've done the right thing, maybe I went to far in teaching or 'drummed' into him, that you treat girls with much respect, maybe he misinterpreted it to mean ' be a doormat', he deserved the same respect in return.
It's his life, I know but it's hard to stand by and watch.


peace & love and big 100 birthday wishes.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Begonia on September 01, 2011, 06:16:24 AM
Quote from: luise.volta on August 31, 2011, 08:03:32 PM
We just have to stop trying to understand it and stop getting stuck in expectations. My husband didn't even get a card from his son on Father's Day and they live an hour from here. And on his 100th birthday next month, they are going to be away on a trip.

First of all, a very happy 100 young years to your husband!   My mother had terminal cancer and was just recovering from having a kidney removed when we had her 80th birthday...we knew it might be her last.  She had been very good to my DS and DD, even buying a car for my DS when he went to college.  Did he show up for the party?  Nope.  That was a hard one for me to get past at the time.  Now I realize that he just could not face the fact that his GM was not going to be around--it has been very difficult for him to lose her, he just clammed up about it completely and probably has never grieved it.  His way of dealing with sorrow or pain is to withdraw.   
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Pooh on September 01, 2011, 06:28:38 AM
Nicelady, I think you already know what you need to do.  From your posts, it's obvious you are hurt, worried about him and miss him.  We all do in our situations so that is totally understandable.  What struck me is you take responsibility for your shortcomings and you also state several times that you know that you need to let him go.  You get it...now you have to do it.  You taught him right, you have discussed things with him in regards to his situation and he is still choosing that life.  You did what you could do and now it's on him.

If he says he can give you 2 hours...jump for joy and enjoy every second of it!  Make it a wonderful 2 hours and let things go!  If you do that, he may have a good time and feel relaxed and want to come back for 2 more hours!  If he sees you just worried the whole time and stressing because you are thinking about your limited time, he's going to feel the tension.  Is he making mistakes?  Maybe, but they are his to make and you have done your job.

What is something you can do for yourself today for just 15 minutes?  Baby steps.
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on September 01, 2011, 10:17:17 AM
Just want to say I appreciate everyone's heartfelt feelings here; and thank you for giving each other some tenderness.  It makes us stronger.  I am
also grateful for hearing from mothers of sons especially when we go through these feelings and need some comforting.  I agree wholeheartedly
with most everything, esp about how unfulfilled expectations cause upsets.  It isn't so much about the past, but what will we do next.  It is a lot
easier to figure that one out, with help.  Thank you all!  Happy Birthday to Val the Centurion!  (That's sad to not see son acknowledge it).  Sending
love...       
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Doe on September 01, 2011, 11:09:54 AM
And another Happy Birthday to Val!

FWIW, when my son missed my last birthday, I sent him a funny belated birthday card saying that  I was sorry he had missed it and told him how much fun I had.   He was mortified and came through with some make-up chocolate right away!
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: Smilesback@u on September 01, 2011, 11:16:33 AM
Yup, works every time -- a sense of humor, a bit of a nudge, and a good dose of "how could you" helps some realize what they should be doing. 
My Dad has chose to do that to me -  :-[  sometimes.    I learned. 
Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: nicelady on September 01, 2011, 04:27:08 PM
Hi,
'doe' loved that you did that.lol

'pooh'
you are correct, it's getting the 'do it' part,like you said 'baby steps'.
I'm at the momment giving myself a 'talking to',some days I cope better than others, this week has not been to good, but I will 'get there'.
peace love hope

Title: Re: Why do our sons "obey" princess wives?!
Post by: justanoldgrandma on September 02, 2011, 11:36:58 AM
Quote from: luise.volta on August 31, 2011, 08:03:32 PM
We just have to stop trying to understand it and stop getting stuck in expectations. My husband didn't even get a card from his son on Father's Day and they live an hour from here. And on his 100th birthday next month, they are going to be away on a trip.

Luise, I need this printed on my forehead about the "stop trying to understand it and getting stuck in expectations."  And then look in the mirror and read it every 30 minutes (if printed backwards!) 

We (or I) spend so many years devoted to our children and then grandchildren that we forget our dhs and other parts of our lives, like hobbies, friends, spirituality.  My parents were into their own lives more while we were young (not neglectful, just not so hovering) and were into their own lives so much more than dh and I are.  They worried about the big things w us but didn't expect sleepovers w gc, visits on bdays, just holiday dinners when we could congregate, letting the ILs have The Day most of the time w/o resentment.  My father was my mother's one and only and I know I need to concentrate more on dh while we still have each other!

My parents and dh's parents just didn't fret as I do and were happier for it.  No real jealousy over ILs and equal time.... venting was done but not to the ILs; and then it was over. 

Maybe we (I) are too vested in our adults children/gc and forget how busy and preoccupied we were when raising kids/working?  There were days that went by when I forgot my parents!  and yet I expect my kids to keep in at least weekly contact w us when they are swamped and exhausted.  So the dils call their moms; I wrote to my mom once a week; it's the way it is.  I'm just glad my dils are in contact w us some!

Dear old mom and dad did some things right and I need to remember those things!