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Problem Solving => Daughter in Laws and/or Son in Laws => Topic started by: baker on August 13, 2011, 04:56:14 PM

Title: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: baker on August 13, 2011, 04:56:14 PM
I have a 33 year old son, whose has been married for 10 years, there are three grandchildren.   It is such a long story, when he was 19 he was in college, without him telling us, he moved into his girlfriends house, we thought he was still at the college, when we called after not hearing from him for about two weeks, we didnt know where he was.  so we launched a search, only to find out that evening that he had moved into his girlfriends house, and had declared his freedom from us... We tried to talk to him about leaving college but he got angry with us, and has stayed that way.  A year later, his girlfriend got pregnant and they got married, we paid for the whole deal,including a down payment on his house.   It has been a terrible and troublesome relationship, he would call us late at night, to rage at us, about all the things we never did for him.   It has been terrible,  four years ago, I had to move because of my work and he saw that as an abandonment and betrayal.  My daughters, who are both adults, and have children, didnt like the move but understood the situation, and have always been nothing but encouraging, helping us to co ordinate calendars so we could have an active part in the other 9 grandchildrens life.  My son, was never so kind,  he quit having anything to do with the rest of the family on christmas, thanksgiving, we never hear from him on mothers day, fathers day, or birthdays.   I have never forgotten him on those occassions sending him cards, $ or gifts.  I have never forgotten our grandchildrens birthdays, but have not been allowed to see them.   Recently, he broke all contact with us, sending us the cards and letters back, even the ones we send to the kids, and was angry when I went to my grandsons kindergarten graduation.  In another long ranting and raging phone conversation with his dad,  my son said I didnt have any right to come and see his children. 
My sons birthday was last week, and although I knew he probably would return the card, and not answer the phone, I tried to call him, he hung up on me three times before I quit.  I called my sister and was venting to her about my frustration and she called him, and asked him to come over to talk.  so he did.  she told him that family shouldnt be separated, and then my son told her, the reason he didnt want any contact with us is because we are judgemetal and angry.  but he would consdier letting us see the kids under certain conditions.  1 we would have to take them somewhere and buy them something, and 2, my sister would have to be present.  This is just crazy, and I know if I begin to get clsoe again, he is going to try to hurt us, but I dont know what to do... help... what do you suggest.


Title: Re: son problem
Post by: JaneF on August 13, 2011, 05:34:49 PM
I'm sorry for your ugly situation. Sounds familiar to me!  Personally I would not buy into his blackmail about demanding you buy the children something if he allows you to see them. That sounds like a pouting, demanding temper fit by a little kid! Like if I don't get my way I'll hold my breath! If he does not want to accept your cards for holidays, I wouldn't send him one. I do think it is unfair for him to withold ones to the children though. But unfortunately you can't control what he does. All this anger because he says you are judgemental according to him? Sounds like an issue a reasonable adult would have brought up and then suggested a discussion huh? I hope you do get to see the grandchildren, and I hope the situation with your son improves. I have not posted for quite some time, so I am behind on all the recent news on here. Keep your chin up!!!
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: luise.volta on August 13, 2011, 06:24:41 PM
Welcome - I am going to repost something here that I wrote today on another thread. I suggest you gather up your self-respect and end the conflict by stating that your door and heart are open should he even decide to alter his perceptions but that you will no longer condone the ones he holds.

============================================================

Just some thoughts: When someone describes a perfect childhood to me...I always add a measure of denial. Childhood is hard. Parenting is hard. Even those who grow up in ideal homes...sometimes find the world at large difficult, as a result. There are no easy answers. Childhood lasts for years and crises come and go. Life. People are responsible, kind, understanding...only when they are. There is no consistency in being human. For all of us, I think, out best can look different from one day to the next.
For me, there have been days when my best consisted of getting up.

I had two sons (one died at 52 from sleep apnea.) One as an adult chose to remember (embellish and misinterpret) every negative thing I ever said or did...and the other choose to remember (appreciate and learn from) every positive thing I ever said or did. That was about them, not me.

I worked for the Juvenal Courts system in Seattle. I saw horrible kids with wonderful parents and wonderful kids with horrible parents. There are endless factors involved in the whole. For me, it all comes down to "we did what we did."

Often we forgive for the simple reason that to be unforgiving is hard on us and we choose to let it go...but we can't trust again. Once our adult children turn on us and start bashing (and bashing can have many definitions)...trust can be a thing of the past. Forgiveness and trust are not the same thing.

Bottom line...they are adults and in charge of their own lives. They will learn what the learn by making choices and suffering from or reaping the benefits of the consequences. In the porcess, our expectations may be met or they may not. We are more than parents. We were whole before they were born and we can be whole again with or without their approval.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Pen on August 13, 2011, 07:39:55 PM
Baker, welcome. I too am sorry you are going through this but glad you found us. Many here are experiencing similar heartaches. You'll get lots of support and wisdom.

If you haven't already done so, please take a moment to read the Forum Agreement under Open Me First on the home page. Your post is fine, but we want everyone to know the forum policies.

JaneF, nice to hear from you again!
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: not like the movies on August 13, 2011, 09:34:42 PM
welcome Baker, sorry for the circumstances that bring you here. All too familiar circumstances I am afraid. None the less painful. There comes a time when we do something different because what we are doing does not work. My husband always tells me when you are up against a brick wall turn around. There are so many myths of motherhood and one is that we never are suppose to be hurt or fed up with bad behavior from adult children. Trust me it is only a myth. I love my daughter but really can't stand her behavior so I don't get involved in it. My boundaries are so much more defined. When she is ugly I withdraw and love from a distance. She comes around but rebounds off and on. I just carry on with my own life and she gets happy in the same pants she got mad in or she doesn't. It's up to her not me.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: baker on August 14, 2011, 05:03:53 AM
Thank you all for you replys and your support,  Over the last several years, I have gone from blaming myself for his bad behavior to ignoring the situation all together.  Both my daughters, who are wonderful, giving, sweet, generous, and loving women, are always telling me, "mom, we are not like that, you didnt raise us to hurt people." and they are right, but something deep inside of me, runs through the movies in my head, where I lost my temper, or I grounded him, or did something that was not loving, and caused his hatred toward me.   I know its not true, but I still think about it.    Over the last few years,  I have retreated behind my husband, by letting him deal with him, because he seems to be able to take it better than I and it hurts too much.  But I have discoveredt that he hurts as much if not more than I,  when I found him with tears in his eyes over another encounter, where my son told him, that his grandchildren dont know him, and dont want to know him.  Its all so crazy and full of hatred... 

In spite of all of htis we still want a relationship with my son, but we are afraid of him hurting us again.   luise, posted that trust and forgiveness are not the same thing, I needed to hear that, because,  I can forgive him, but I will never trust him with my feelings.   Sometimes love is conditional, like if you do this, then I will do that... that is the kind of love he has come to know, and the only people in his life that gives him unconditional love is his parents... the ones he blames for his lot in life, the ones he feels safe enough to hate.   It is so crazy and none of it makes sense.   I want to see my grandchildren, although, I know that I will not measure up to his expectations of what I should do or should not do.   It has become a reality to me lately, that my relationship hopes may not lie with him, but with the little people that he produced.   So,  since he didnt say how much I had to spend,  Bubbles are only a 1.00 and time with them priceless..    The reality is that I may only be able to see them for just a short time, but I keep the cards he sends back and I have begun to keep a journal so they will know I love them.
I am glad that I have found this site, becase I am lost as to what to do or who to talk to since this has gone on for years, some just say, cut him out, dont pay any attention, let him go..  but I had three children not two and I love him, inspite of his tantrems..
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Pooh on August 14, 2011, 10:09:20 AM
Welcome Baker.  You have to do what keeps your sanity.  If that means you "choose" to buy the GC something to follow the rules because you get to see them, then do it.  Just guard well that the demands do not become higher over time.  I find that people that make demands (my way or the highway) tend to up the ante as time goes on.  When they have that type of mindset, it seems to be the more-more-more attitude.   

I don't like to use the word cutoff (although there are ladies here that have had to do that to either children, parents, stepparents, whoever for good reason).  I prefer to use the words "long timeout".  When my kids were little, we had a "timeout" bench.  When they misbehaved, they had to sit there for X amount of time, depending on the child crime.  While they were there, I couldn't look at them.  If I did, they would give a sweet face or pouty look, trying to get me to give them parole.  I had to go about my business and had to not look their direction.  That's where my OS is now.  He's on an adult size "timeout" bench.  He can be granted parole and probation at any time, but it will be based on his actions, not mine.

I was very glad to read you are keeping your DH's feelings in mind too.  Men tend to seem stronger but have feelings as well.  Great job!  He deserves a big hug too!
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: baker on August 14, 2011, 10:50:45 AM
My husband, thier father is an incredible man with deep and loving emotions. It absolutely tears him up.. and I really didnt realize this until about two months ago, which was our last conversation with my son.   He was a great dad, and my daughters turned out wonderful.   

I think my son wants me to be somebody I am not or somebody he has imagined I am.  He has told my sister that I am judgemental and preachy.  He told her that if I would quit my job and move back home and act like a real gramma, I could see him and the kids whenever I wanted too...  I am a professional and had to move because of my work.  I dont have the option of moving back, even if I wanted too.    It is so hard to deal with everything in my life right now, let alone a 33 year old , 2 year old, who does need a time out.    My gut is telling me to go slow and to realize that 'he may up the ante' which would be in his character, and be vigilant over my heart.    A part of me, is  saying that I didnt do anything wrong, and now just by abiding by his demands it is going to seem like and feel like I am admitting that I did.  He is going to claim his victory by thinking that he has brought me to my knees, that he has found my currency, to which he can place other demands upon me over time.  That has me worried too about following his demands so that I can see my grandkids. Long term this may come back and bite me big time. 
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: luise.volta on August 14, 2011, 10:59:25 AM
I like the saying "What you think of me is none of my business." He will think whatever he does. Pass on ever seeing his respect...and rely on your own self-respect. Nurture it and see it as your truth. "What you think of yourself is definitely your business." Sending love..
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: twinsmom on August 14, 2011, 07:50:55 PM
If it helps, I have two granddaughters that live within 30 minutes of me and I have been trying for four years to see them.  I have sent packages for every holiday, Easter, Halloween, etc. and never a thank you or acknowledgement.  I now send just cards and I have government bonds made out for all holidays.  I send the certificate that shows they have a bond and the amount; I keep the bonds and when the girls are old enough to understand I will turn all of their bonds over to them.  They will see by the date of the bonds that I thought of them on every holiday.  I never want my granddaughters to ever think they were not in my heart at all times. 
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: baker on August 15, 2011, 05:07:33 AM
Wow, that is a good idea,  I have never missed a birthday or a Christmas, but they probably dont know that.   Last Christmas, we actually went to his house to take gifts from us and his sisters for them and the grandkids,  they wouldnt come to the door, but did pick up the phone, as we called them as we stood in the driveway, they told us to put them in thier car it was unlocked.  Which we did,  we have never recieved any kind of acknowledgement for anything we have done or given them.  Thier memory is very short, and claim that "we have never done anything for them"   I had a therapist ask if my son was mentally ill?  He was never diagnosed with anything as a child except a learning disability.  I was told by one of his special ed teachers that he showed "some sociopathic tendencies"  which I never believed.  Now I think she may have been right.    Thanks for the idea,  hopefully as our grandkids grow older, they too will tire of a non relationship with us.  In the meantime, I guess we wait to what happens when they grow up, and pray they are not like thier parents.   
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Pooh on August 15, 2011, 06:26:14 AM
Don't ask me why this popped in my head while reading through your posts.  I guess it was the Christmas talking as it is my favorite holiday.  I just had another idea.  I'm going to start buying a personalized Christmas ornament for my GD every Christmas, with her name and date on it!  Or I will buy something that makes me think about her and write her name and date on bottom.  I will be able to have her with me at Christmas (via the ornaments on the tree), and when she grows up, if she chooses to look for me, I will be able to give her all those ornaments.  Hopefully it will show her that she was thought of every year and will give her a great start for her own Christmas tree!

Title: Re: son problem
Post by: baker on August 15, 2011, 08:44:42 AM
Oh my, what a cute idea, I think I am going to do the same thing, then when they grow up, they will know that every year, I thought of them.   Thanks for the ideas...:)  I am feeling better already...
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Pen on August 15, 2011, 08:48:48 AM
I must be having a hormonal day, 'cos this thread is making me tear up just like Pooh's post about her mom on another topic.  :'(   What great ideas, I'd love to be able to see the GC's faces when they finally get to see proof of their GP's love.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: herbalescapes on August 15, 2011, 01:13:30 PM
I don't have a medical degree, but when you said your son calls late at night to rage at you, mental illness popped into my head.  There's no tactful way to suggest to someone that they might be mentally ill, so I don't know what you can do if you want to consider that possibility.  Maybe it could let you accept his behavior? 

I think the other posts have some good ideas about how to keep your gc in your life even if they aren't physically.  If the ideas here aren't to your liking per se, there are plenty of websites for gp's with geographically distant gc and ideas on how to stay close.  Adapt them to your situation.

Good luck.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: baker on August 15, 2011, 05:39:19 PM
Thanks, since this was a recent revelation to me, I am pondering it and thinking back to his many rages and issues over the yeas,  I never saw any of it when he was younger,  but as he went into his teen age years, we saw alot of anger, hitting, breaking things, and throwing things.   I have been thinking alot about the therapists comment and think that maybe it will help me to let it go a little easier.  But he has burnt so many bridges with his sisters.... I just dont know.  Thanks for the info on the web site for grandkids.   He isnt under any treatment that I know of... Thanks for your support...
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Canuck Grannie on August 15, 2011, 10:20:44 PM
I am so glad I found this site tonight.  I'll tell my story later on, but just know I've been played with like a yo-yo for the past ten years and have had enough.  I've spent the last two days aching and sobbing and wishing I could just forget I ever had my grown son and had run off to Paris when I was 18 instead! 

The wisdom and experience I see here has already helped me to get back into focus.  I've been denied access to my son and his two children for ten years now but the door was opened in July.  I met them - laughed with them - enjoyed meeting them (they are 9 and 11) - for a blissful 20 minutes.  We made plans for a get-together in August.  Their eyes sparkled at the prospect.

Now my son has slammed the door again over a very minor misunderstanding that he said nothing about in July, and the children will once again not be allowed to see me.  I ache for them as much as I ache for myself.  How did my kind and caring son become such an uncaring adult?  Is this our "brave new world"?  If so - where can I get off?

I'll be back.  Maybe next time with encouragement for a fellow sufferer!
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Pen on August 16, 2011, 07:16:09 AM
Canuck Grannie, welcome to the site. I'm glad you found us, but I'm sorry you've gone through such pain and sorrow. As you've already discovered this site is very helpful and full of wisdom, support, & understanding. Please keep posting & reading!

If you haven't already done so, please take a moment to read our Forum Agreement under Open Me First on the home page. Your post is fine; we just like everyone to understand the forum policies.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Pooh on August 16, 2011, 07:29:43 AM
Welcome Canuck!  I'm glad you found us.  Here, you will find encouragement, advice and most of all, people that understand.  Come back when you can and share more with us.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: luise.volta on August 16, 2011, 07:32:58 AM
You hit the nail on the head, CG...when you said that you would be back to help others. That's what makes this community tick. Thank you!
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: sesamejane on August 16, 2011, 10:14:26 PM
Is there a possibility that your son may be drinking or using drugs?  Substance abuse can look like mental illness, and sound like it too.

Again I am dumbfounded with the wisdom in these posts. Thank you ladies.

Wondering if there has been a discussion about gender?  My sister and I were talking about this and wondering if there was something about being a mother, a woman, that perhaps we are devalued.  Any thoughts ?
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: luise.volta on August 17, 2011, 06:04:34 AM
My guess is that we were the ones who were "there" and had to do the disciplining. Easy targets...
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: elsieshaye on August 17, 2011, 07:06:11 AM
I do think my son has absorbed his father's disdain for women to some extent - disdain for anyone he sees as weaker than he is, actually, male or female.  We had a talk about that this past week.  He still thinks that any emotion is a sign of weakness, and thinks that people are "irrational" if they don't think exactly the way he does.

He also tends to loom over me and get in my personal space when we have a disagreement.  Not on purpose, and backs off when it's pointed out to him, but it definitely reminds me of his father's confrontational style.  DS is -not- happy about acting like his father.  I didn't actually tell him he was acting like the X (them's fighting words in his mind), but just pointed out the behaviors when we were both calm.  He turned 8 shades of pale, got very quiet, and then very honest for the first time in a long time. 

I also think that I am a "safe" target.  He knows that I will always forgive him, always be in contact, always be there when he's ready to talk - that's not true of his father at all, and I have noticed that he works out a lot of his anger at his father on me.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: baker on August 17, 2011, 01:29:52 PM
Interesting comments, yes my son, has in the past trouble with alcoholism, however, he has been angry since little.  I can remember, broken windows, holes in the walls, and damaged vehicles because of his anger.  Many trips to the emergency ward, when he would hit the wall with his fist and hurt himself.  We actually put up a punching bag in the basement that he would go and punch at when he felt a rage coming on... it saved on the walls of our new house.  While he was little, from 1-15 could not eat in a resturant with him, becuase he would get 'upset' over something, a waitress or the wrong food...ect...  as I look back, it has been evident that there are some mental issues,  I guess as his mom, i just didnt notice it.  But the reality is that we still have to live and manage his life if we want him to be a part of ours.  His wife, I am sure his wife, has been verbally abused, much like we have.  I am not sure if he has ever hit her... someone once said that wonderful parents can have terrible kids, as well as terrible parents can have wonderful children...  I am going to try to call him tonight, so to see the grandkids,  wish me luch...
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Sassy on August 17, 2011, 02:52:51 PM
Baker I too think something is wrong with your son, that comes from within him and not anything that was done to him.  I am not a doctor or anything remotely like that, but the word disorders (just for example, bipolar, paranoid, borderline, antisocial, narcissistic) came to my layperson mind.   I have first hand understand that when untreated, disorders might be just as bad for the people who love those afflicted with them, as they are for those who have them.  The relationship with someone who's disordered is often that of "Blamer" and "Target". The blamer is convinced the target (parent, spouse, child, sibling, friend; each or all of the above) is responsible for their bad feelings.  The more convincing the Blamers is at blaming, the more horrible and guilt ridden the Target will feel.

I understand it's hard to think about the past, without blaming yourself.  I read you peel back layers of your memory and I can only think how brave you are to do this.  It went from, he wasn't so hostile until he was a teenager, to, from age 1-15 he couldn't dine in public because his anger might erupt.

Please understand I am not attempting to "diagnose" your son in any way. I certainly am not, and no one who's never met him can be qualified to do this.  But there are patterns of behavior you mention here that are universal signs of: It Is So Not Your Fault.   I am only sharing my observations with you in an attempt to give you relief and comfort.  I will put some links on another post that I found comforting and you might, too. Just the understanding that some people's mind literally works so much differently than what we're used to, was one of the greatest sources of relief for me in my own experience loving someone who's probably disordered.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Sassy on August 17, 2011, 03:06:18 PM
This link is not to a medical or clinical website.  It is not about how to treat illnesses or conditions.   It is a website for families and friends who love someone who appears to be suffering from mental conditions, and want understanding and insight for themselves when coping with their loved one.   "Out of the FOG."  FOG is the acronym for "Fear, Obligation, Guilt."  We often feel like we're in a FOG of those feelings when in a relationship with them.  Sound familiar?

http://outofthefog.net/
http://outofthefog.net/Relationships/Parenting.html
http://www.outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/Top100Traits.html

A Lightbulb Moment
http://www.outofthefog.net/CommonNonBehaviors/LightBulbMoment.html

Love to you and your husband.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: baker on August 17, 2011, 03:27:49 PM
Thanks, Honestly, I think he may have some mental issues too... thats horrible to say about my son.  I am the target, and I dont know if I want to take another bullet.   I have spent alot of time thinking this week, and this website is helping me alot to sort out alot.  I am sitting here with the phone in  my hand. My sister, spoke to my son last week, and he said that I could see the grands, with some "parameters", and I was almost ready to call him, but I realized that 1.  i dont know what to say to him anymore, 2. I am afraid that this is just going to open the door to him hurting me and his dad again.  3.  that I am somehow going to have to apologize for my reaction to his horrible behavior, just to be able to see my grandkids, who I suspect, I wont be able to see anyways.   Does that make sense....  I think I just want to let him go..... it hurts less, and I know I am not going to be able to live up to his expectations.. anyways...  I have forgiven him,but I dont trust him.   I just cant bring myself to calling him...he probably wont pick it up anyways..
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: luise.volta on August 17, 2011, 03:34:25 PM
None of it makes sense. Please let go of any attempt to make sense of it. Focus on your own survival. Sending love...
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: baker on August 17, 2011, 04:13:37 PM
Your right, none of it makes sense... my own survival right now, includes not feeling bad about something I didnt do.  I put the phone down, at least for today.  Thanks for your words of wisdom.. 
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Sassy on August 17, 2011, 04:16:44 PM
Oh baker, I know that FOG you are in.  Its so confusing and, well, foggy. That broken record skipping on What to do, What to do.

I want to tell you something and I hope you eventually absorb this, because I believe it to be the truth:  Mental issues are nothing to be ashamed of.  It is no more horrible to say you suspect as such about your son, than it is to say you suspect he may have a broken leg or a clogged artery.  It is what it is and that's it.  There is no shame.  Recogizing the possibility is a fortunate thing for you (the lightbulb moment).  I understand in the past there was great stigma on cancer, as if having a cancer was a sign something was bad about the person.  Yes, there is a lot of misunderstanding and a broader cultural  ignorance about mental issues that can appear to give it a "stigma" but that is imposed from the outside.  As more and more people identify and cope with it, and talk about it, that is and will continue to lessen.  Just as it has with cancer.  It's no one's fault.  We cope and we move on.

Most of all, it is not your fault.  You don't have to call anyone or do anything at all, if you don't want to.  Maybe it's best to do it at a time when you and your husband feel stronger and more prepared for the challenges of interacting with him. On your schedule.

Whatever happens and whatever you choose to do, know you will be okay.  You will be okay.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: luise.volta on August 17, 2011, 04:30:15 PM
Good for you!
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: baker on August 17, 2011, 05:10:36 PM
Him having a mental illness has been just a recent revelation for me, (light bulb moment)... but although, things are coming together and behavior is being better understood,  I understand now many things that happened when he was little and growing up.  It  still does not help me in handling or managing the relationship.   I have no control over him to get him into therapy or medication.  If I even mention that to him and encourage him to get help, I know that will permanently end the relationship.    It also does not diminish the fear of him I have, or the hurt that he can inflict on us, although, "if it isnt his fault or isnt my fault and it doesnt make sense, then what?   I still feel helpless, because now I have some information that could help him, and I cant use it.  I want to see my grandchildren, but like you said, this may not be the time, I need to be stronger.  On my time... I like that.. Thanks so much for listening and responding, I did check out the websites,and he definately is sociopathic disorder.  I answered yes to almost every question. 
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: pam1 on August 17, 2011, 05:35:06 PM
(((baker))) mental illness in a family member is very hard.  My MIL has bpd, the best advice I've received so far is this:  If she were holding a stick that she has hit you with several times before with and is *now* threatening you with again, what would you do?  Would you run away, would you hit her back?  The answer for people with mental illness is to take the stick away from them.

As an example my MIL hurts us with gifts and gift giving, very long background on this one.  So our "taking the stick away" is to not accept gifts.  Now we obviously can't make her stop, can't physically stop her going to the store and mailing us stuff or dropping it off.  But for our sake of mind. the gifts go straight to the Salvation Army.  We took her power to hurt us away without banging our heads against a brick wall trying to make her do something.

Limits are a good thing for any relationship but more important with a person who has a disorder.   Have you noticed that the better you treat DS, the worse he treats you?  He is looking for a limit but is not mature enough to impose limits on himself.

"Stop Walking on Eggshells" is a good, good book.  It is mostly written on how to survive a relationship with a person who has bpd but I think a lot of people who have trouble with placing limits on others hurtful behavior can really benefit from it.  I can't recommend it enough.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Sassy on August 17, 2011, 06:50:06 PM
QuoteI have no control over him to get him into therapy or medication.  If I even mention that to him and encourage him to get help, I know that will permanently end the relationship.

You are so wise.  This is very true.  The knowledge is all for you.  Knowledge is power.

What enlightenment will help you with, over time, is to really grasp that how he behaves is not your fault.  That what yur dear son says and does is not in your control and never was.  There's nothing you should have, would have, could have done differently to change the outcome.  He is behaving according to his issues, not according to how much you love (or discipline, or anything) you've given him.  That knowledge will help you will come to understand in your heart that the demon he's fighting is not and never was, you or your family.   No matter what he says, no many how many times he may say it's so, it's simply not you.  Eventually, that knowledge will be freeing.  I used to fret, what if I did this, would she have done that?  If I do this, will she be mean or kind?  Eventually, you learn to let go of worrying about things you can't control.  The load is lifted.   You learn to let go of what's not up to you to handle.  The sense of eventual peace (yes, peace!) won't come overnight, but it will come.

In most relationships, and especially parenting relationships, we are so conditioned to accept personal responsibility:  "If the relationship is wrong, we must have done something wrong."  But with enlightenment, you'll find out that tired conditioning is totally inaccurate in certain situations. You will accept that you didn't do anything wrong. It's just the cards that were dealt and that's it.  Not in your control, so whew, you can relax.

You love your son, and it's perfectly okay to loathe his issues.  Love the man, hate the disease.  As you can see here, you are not alone.  Labels or no labels, so many of us have been where you are.  You've been through so much and you deserve to heal from it, too.  Healing takes time and love, and sometimes its two steps forward one back,  but we humans are built with the ability to love and to heal.  Hugs.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Pooh on August 18, 2011, 05:28:27 AM
Excellent post Sassy.

You are definitely right baker.  You should not mention any possible disease or mental issue you think he may have.  If he truly has some mental issues, he more than likely does not recognize it and will deny it.  It will anger him further to think that you think something is wrong with him because he is probably in denial and doesn't realize how he behaves.  If your relationship gets to the point where you can carry on a civil conversation with him without his raging, gently suggesting he speak with someone because he seems so stressed or overburdened would be the better approach.  Telling him you see how hard he trying with everything and that everyone needs someone neutral to talk to every once in a while might be accepted better, but only if he is willing to listen without being mean.  If he will go talk to a therapist to discuss his stress, if he truly has a mental problem it will come out while he is talking.

I would walk a thin line with this one and heed Sassy's advice for now and just know it's not you.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Sassy on August 18, 2011, 07:15:22 AM
Pooh there's a word for what you describe, it's called Anosognosia.  It means unawareness of illness.

I saw it written that in perhaps about half of people, or more, who have mental issues, the mind does not allow them to realize they have them.   "People will come up with illogical and even bizarre explanations for symptoms and life circumstances stemming from their illness, along with a compulsion to prove to others that they are not ill, despite negative consequences associated with doing so." -X.Amador

Luise is so right on when she advises not to look for logic in the illogical, not to try to make sense of the nonsensical.


Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Pooh on August 18, 2011, 07:19:59 AM
That statistic doesn't surprise me.  How many of us know someone that has a drinking problem and they do not think they do?  I bet everyone here knows someone.  I think denial of medical, mental and bad things we do to ourselves is very common and the key to being able to fix it.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: baker on August 18, 2011, 09:02:18 AM
Wow,  All of this has been so good for me, to have someone other than family to talk about this issue.  I have hurted so long over this and I feel some of it releasing, and perhaps some actually healing can take place.  My relationship with my son, has been one of my biggest regrets and embarrassments in my life, that somehow I really screwed up with him.  ( I jsut didnt know how)

  The idea that perhaps he does have a mental illness has been a OMGosh moment,  how come I didnt see it?  I know it doesnt matter, but, I am really feeling like, I need to create some boundaries.  I am not ashamed about him anymore.  and I do notice how the nicer I am the meaner he is to us, and that is why, I need to be a little stronger before I make any phone calls to him about anything. So that I can take the stick away...  The grand kids will grow up, and hopefully, will be able to discuss stuff with us someday.  I feel in my heart that our beautiful grand daugther will come and want to know us... in the future.   Thank you so much everyone.  my journey isnt over but with all of you, I know I can make it now.  Hugs..   
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Ruth on August 18, 2011, 09:22:48 AM
Luise I decided to copy and paste the response you wrote to the sad situation, I thought it was so profound and I want to re=read it many times.  I am deeply sorry Baker for the anguish you are feeling with having to live with such a disappointment.   All of us here have similar war stories, but I think that the grandparents have the most heartwrenching time of it.   As horrendous as it is having to accept that your child has cut you off, there is no way to express the pain and frustration as being cut off from your grandchildren, I think there is a hot place in hades for people who perpetrate this action without a colossal good reason.  The children being deprived of a willing and loving G/P is just evil.  I am pulling for a good resolution to this for you. 
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Ruth on August 18, 2011, 09:27:49 AM
Quote from: elsieshaye on August 17, 2011, 07:06:11 AM
I do think my son has absorbed his father's disdain for women to some extent - disdain for anyone he sees as weaker than he is, actually, male or female. 

This is my situation also, elsiehaye, the rift began when my DS was 2 yrs of age.  There was never a time in his life that he did not treat me with what ran the gamut between apathy and contempt.  He mirrored his father's attitudes and it stuck like glue.

CG, my heart bleeds for you, I am so sorry about the dashing of your hopes to build a relationship actively with your two G/C.  Keep your chin up and know that there is always a tomorrow.
Title: Re: son problem
Post by: Ruth on August 18, 2011, 09:28:48 AM
sorry I think I made a mistake on that last post, I didn't know how this 'quote' feature works, the first paragraph is quote from elsy, and the last is my take on it.   sorry folks
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: baker on August 30, 2011, 05:14:15 AM
Its been a couple of weeks since I posted.  I took my sisters advice and waited, then called him, every week, once a week, for the last two weeks,  I have even facebooked his wife... but he is still not picking up the phone and she returned the emails.  I have been praying that eventually there will be a door opened somewhere, some time, but his wife is caught up in this craziness, and I am actually not sure that she isnt alot like him, anyways.  But, I am going to keep praying that just one time, he picks up the phone.   Right now, my life is so busy, with so many crisis' at work, that it is hard to concentrate on much else.  It however, has been a wonderful distraction this week as my daughters three little ones have come to spend the week with us.  My girls are so wonderful, they have changed thier schedules, rearranged thier activities, so that we could spend some time together with them and the grandkids we do have a realtionship with, especially before school starts.  But there will never be a day go by that I dont think of the other three grandkids that are being told lies about me and thier grandfather.  It actually just sickens me... but I am going to take some ideas from this site and use them to prove to those children who will grow up someday, that we loved them too.    I will keep in touch.. Blessings.   
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: Scoop on August 30, 2011, 05:25:59 AM
2 things:

Baker - you have to stop calling.  From their end, I bet you a dollar they think of it as harassment.  I think you need to take another step back from this, because you're banging your head against a brick wall, hoping it'll turn into a window. 

On mental illness .... what organ do you use to self-diagnose problems with your body?  Your brain.  What if the problem is with your brain?  You can't expect someone to use an organ that's not functioning normally to diagnose their problems.  He'll either come to it, through the help of people he trusts (his DW, maybe his Dr), or he won't. 
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: Pooh on August 30, 2011, 05:38:59 AM
Thanks for the update baker, been wondering about you.  I'm with Scoop, stop calling.  You have opened the door and it's time to leave it in their hands.  They now have assurance that you want to talk to them by your calls and facebook message, so it's all up to them.  Step back and concentrate on your work stuff as that it probably enough on your plate right now. 
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: baker on August 30, 2011, 06:31:44 AM
Thanks,  I am sure glad I posted today.  I guess I just thought, that if my sister said, he would take a call, he would take a call.  But after two tries, its probably not going to happen.  I miss him so much, I guess calling, even without him picking up, gave me some sense of connection with him.   I appreciate the advice and will quit calling him.  I  so thank you for your help,  I know that I am not seeing, hearing or feeling correctly about this, because in my mind, it just doesnt make any sense at all.  I am going to have to learn to live in the "unknown" of the situation, and enjoy what I do have.:) 
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: Ruth on August 30, 2011, 06:49:26 AM
The first few weeks I stopped calling my DS, I had to put myself in a strait jacket.  It got a lot easier, and finally I have a little self respect, I haven't contacted him since the first of the year.  I've relegated it to a different level of management.  After I've gotten away from it emotionally, many of my 'sweet' memories have returned.  Last night I was awake at 4 am and I had such vivid memories of bringing him home from the hospital, the first few months of his life that were just so good.  It wasn't painful any more to go there like it used to be.  One thing I know for sure, if I had not backed off invading his privacy with my phone calls and emails, his contempt for me would have certainly continued to escalate.  It may still do so, but I am certain my 'neediness' only made him more determined to avoid me.  I have finally accepted that my Ds will not be a part of me unless he is able at some point to come to be honest with himself, to be able to look at his history and his style in an honest way, and unless he feels a need to ground himself. 
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: luise.volta on August 30, 2011, 09:53:58 AM
Sometimes we just need to step out of the drama. We need to step back and rescue ourselves from it. We need to let others go their way and we need to rest. Sometimes we need to turn away from the darkness of failed and failing relationships and allowing healing to occur...by looking toward something else that is supportive. Sometimes we have to pick ourselves up by the boot straps...and let go...to survive.
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: baker on August 30, 2011, 03:14:17 PM
I know that, in my head, but my heart, still sees my little boy, with curly blond hair, and a sweet loving smile.  Yes, there were alot of tantrems which... well just were.... But,  I miss him, I miss my son... I deal alot with death in my profession, and this is a fate worse than death, because he is still alive..  and it feels like he is dead....  My grandkids are being fed poison, and my daughter in law is not helping anything.  It was so easy for her to cut her own father out her life, when he divorced her mother.   That really scares me too.  Because it has been almost 15 years, and she still has nothing to do with him (as far as I know anyways).. I having a pity party right now.  I know what I have to do, and I will do it, but I wonder will I ever feel peace about it?
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: luise.volta on August 30, 2011, 03:26:13 PM
We find peace when we accept. At least that is true for me at 84. I lost my eldest son 11 years ago. And for many years before that, he was lost to me. We can either focus on loss or on peace but seldom both.  When my head is full of everything I don't have and I mourn...there is no room for what I have and joy.
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: Scoop on August 30, 2011, 05:29:06 PM
Baker - if your grandkids are really being fed poison, then you should cal 911.

If they're not actually being fed poison, you shouldn't say it.

I don't have anything nice to say about sweeping melodramatic statements like that, so I'm going to go do something else now.
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: luise.volta on August 30, 2011, 05:49:06 PM
I actually missed that...the food thing. Please clarify.
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: baker on August 31, 2011, 05:12:07 AM
Oh My!  I was using melodramatic language as it was put... poison is a term that can be used in the literal sense as poison, " a toxic substance causing death or injury",  or poison, a metaphor for slander, inuendos and lies.  I was intending the latter.  Pain is a strange beast... isnt it?

Thank you for reminding me that we are all in different places in our journeys.. lol..
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: luise.volta on August 31, 2011, 07:57:09 AM
Good for you for "getting it". Thanks! My son often reminds me that I overstate to make a point. It's easy to do.
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: herbalescapes on September 02, 2011, 03:31:21 PM
This may not make you feel better, but it might be that your gk with ds aren't being told anything about you.  It could be outta sight outta mind.  That has drawbacks, but on the plus side, down the line you won't have to call their parents liars.  Pretend you're a doctor and follow the Hippocratic Oath: First do no harm.  If you think anything you try to do to gain a relationship with your son and his kids would backfire, don't do it.  It sounds like your daughters and other grandkids provide a lot of comfort.  Enjoy those relationships.  It'll always hurt being estranged and it certainly ain't easy coming to terms with a big hole in your life where your son and other gk should be, but you can learn to cope.

Good luck.
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: baker on September 03, 2011, 05:45:54 AM
Thanks,  actually that is reassuring.  I would rather them not being told anything, rather than the idea that they think we have abandoned them, (which is what it feels like sometimes, even though we have tried).   My daugthers and my other gk, are wonderful, and we enjoy a great relationship with them.  I know that a big hole is in my heart, and will be..  But like you said, I need to keep moving on, living our lives.  These gk's will grow up, and hopefully, I will have another shot at it later on.
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: Pen on September 03, 2011, 10:20:26 AM
Baker, you've probably already read what some of the other estranged GMs do; scrapbooks, bank accounts, diaries and the like so later their GC can see how much they were loved by their GPs. It might be a good place to put all the love you have but can't share.

I know how painful this is for you, but the others are right; revel in the love and attention from your DDs and your other GC and take the time to cherish yourself.

My big stumbling block is my desire for justice. When things aren't fair I want someone to pay, someone to be punished. It's not likely to happen and the only person I hurt is myself. Much better to move on and make your life as good as it can be!
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: SunShine on September 05, 2011, 12:37:57 PM
I'm sitting here wondering, how much of an affect your daughter in law has had on your son? I also wonder... did he want you to save him from his girlfriend and all the mistakes he made in life? Does he think he made mistakes? I would think a 19 year old ditching college to live with a girlfriend is making a mistake... and then to have children through it all. Did he ever become what he wanted to in life? Is he taking his rage out on you, because he can't take it out on his wife? This is misplaced anger imho. This happened to us and it also was so hard emotionally on my DH. My DD had a boyfriend who wanted to march her down the aisle and not let her finish college, which we were paying for. My DH, against my better judgment, told my daughter's boyfriend to take a hike and leave her alone. There would be no marriage, etc. He told the guy's parents. As it turned out, my daughter wanted to be rescued and dear dad did just that... which I didn't think he should have done. At the time, I felt at 21, she should rescue herself. He again just rescued her from the effects of hurricane Irene. She had no electric, etc. She was so nasty and stubborn about how she could handle it all and didn't need us, until she didn't even have a working toilet. I would prefer not to rescue her when she abuses us, but I'm outvoted. So, my DD makes mistakes, abuses us and then expects us to rescue her. My DH does just that and I say, no you should not rescue her, not if she's abusive at the time. Besides, after high school, they should be responsible for their own mistakes. Your son made his bed with his decisions and imho he may not like laying in it. It seems to me, he is raging at you for the life he feels he may have messed up. He probably has no idea why he is angry in life or even thinks he has messed up. This really has nothing to do with you at all. This has to do with him making decisions and hoping you'd rescue him from them years ago (imho). I think that you did the right thing. I wish my DH wasn't always rescuing our DD from herself. She'll never learn to make the right choices in life. I think you have a wonderful DH for him to take so much upon himself, since your son seems to be raging at you. I think you need to tell your DS that you aren't responsible for his life decisions, but I think others have said that. It's so true. He thought he knew it all at 19 and you let him make mistakes. You were right to let him make mistakes and now he's mad that you didn't save him. That's just my opinion on why your daughters are just fine and he's in a rage. Also, like I said, he may hate his situation and can't rage at his wife. You have supported his decision and at 19 he was an adult, so there was not much you could do or should have done, other than support him in this. I'm guessing misplaced anger, but I could be wrong... just a thought. I know it's hard for you to take his bad temper, but really, he's angry at himself and just won't admit it. Again, as I say in most of my posts... it's just my opinion. I don't really know. Guessing here. Sorry you are going through this and I guess all any of us can do is make suggestions as to why something might be happening and perhaps something will click that helps.
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: luise.volta on September 05, 2011, 12:46:12 PM
And we can never make sense of the senseless. Sending love...
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: baker on September 05, 2011, 04:01:00 PM
Its funny, cause misplaced anger, for messing up his life, is my daughters opinion, on why he rages at us, especially me, cause, I spent alot of time (in his growing years) rescueing him from bully's, ect... I took a part time job once, on top of a full time, to pay for a special tutor, cause his teacher,  was 'not teaching him'...., my words not his...  I think back and wonder why that teacher could teach other children, including my daughters but not him.   He had run in's with principals in middle school, got caught by a high school counselor, transfering a suspicious substance, which they never pressed charges against, cause I rescured him and promised the school it would never happen again, and it didnt to my knowledge.
I warned him about his wife, being trouble, cause she had a history... he left college for her, and then two years later, she ended up pregnant, by him, while already having another child by another man.   Its so seedy.. and we have always felt that she manipulated him.. which doesnt negate his responsibility, but he cannot get angry at her, so he probably gets angry at us... His life has been very hard, and he has been very upset for a very long time, with his sisters, for "being rich"  which they arnt, they just have a few things easier than he does.  For a long while, he was fine with us, as long as I gave him money, but in the last five years and the bad rescession, everyne has suffered, including us.  So no extra money for him.  And even what we did give him, which was thousands of dollars, hes forgotten... 
I am trying to get on with our life, and today spent the day with my daugthers and grands, at the science center... it was great fun... we just got home.  Thanks so much for thinking of me and my plight.  If anything, I am not blaming myself anymore.  and although, i will never like it,  i can live without him.. the grands they will grow up.. and I will hopefully have an opportunity to show them how much I thought of them and loved them every day.   
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: sesamejane on September 05, 2011, 09:33:06 PM
yes Baker, it sounds like he has a life long history of poor decision making, and it sure isn't going to get any better if others rescue him or put up with rudeness from him.  It is sad to watch our children make choices that we know are disastrous and will hurt them in the long run.  However, I have to say that in the past I have also been dead wrong about what I think is the right or wrong thing for my children.  So as adults we choose our own path, for bad or good, and have to live with those choices.  All of us do. :)

imho I think you are doing the right thing in letting him sort this out.
Title: Re: I'm In The Same Boat
Post by: baker on September 06, 2011, 05:36:13 AM
Thanks,  its so hard though, we want him to be a part of our family and all that we enjoy.  But like my middle daughter says,  its his decision, he has made these choices not us,... yup.. even this one.. he chose. 

But it is nice to know that I am not alone.. for a long time I thought I was, and the shame of carrying that and trying to figure out what I did wrong was a terrible burden.   I did what I did, and I thought I did the best I knew.    He wasnt abused although there were many times, I did want to... lol..  I am of the mind set that he may have a mental illness too.. which has given me the ability to give him and myself some grace and forgiveness in all of this.