Wanted to get outside opinion of fair visitation.
We live away from both FOOs and will be travelling across country to see them shortly. DH & I can't seem to agree so we end up going back & forth btwn his familys & mine. For the 2 wks we will visiting, we will be at his familys for 5 days and my familys for 8. The reason for the difference is that his just parents visited our home staying for 2 weeks.
IS THIS FAIR? Will is be perceived as unfair? Suggestions appreciated.
Oh no! Not the fairness game again! If you want to go straight down the middle with even time spent with each FOO, I think it's going to get very difficult.
Is there anyway to stay in a hotel for the whole trip? That's what I would do. When I visit my own FOO and stay with them it doesn't feel very much like a vacation. At a hotel someone makes my bed!
I don't know about your DH's FOO... but for me... 5 days with company, especially kids, would be way more than I could handle. But I don't think the 5 days and 8 days is unfair, unless someone is counting and getting insulted over it... in which case, the hotel suggestion is great.
It's not equal, but it's fair.
You won't be able to make everyone happy, so make your decisions (with DH of course) and go from there. You don't have to JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) your choices to anyone.
Are your IL's likely to complain?
I agree. I don't blame you one bit for wanting to stay with your FOO more since you just had his FOO for 2 weeks. Of course, I can see that and understand. I think Scoop asked the important question. Can they see that and understand?
My Take: You two need to agree. That's it. And the sooner you learn not to give a rip how it is perceived the better! ;)
how far apart do the GP's live from one another ?
do you ever get together as a whole , or always separate families ?
If you all got together for some days , then the separation wouldn't be an issue .
During the first year of being a GP , I was lucky to get one hour , so I think they both should
consider all visitation as a treat , either short or long ..
I say divide the 14 days into 3rds: one for his family, one for yours and one for your own little family vacation. Find a nice or fun motel/hotel and play in the pool and relax.
Well, hats off to you if you can visit family and stay with them for that long without some major conflicts. You must be doing something really right!! I always stay in a hotel these days but I didn't use to and I can never recall it ever being an issue where we spent more time.
I think you are very kind to think of this issue, though it is misplaced imho. Personally I would be thinking of quality of time, not quantity - for your family. Work it out with each other and tell the foo's what has been decided - no need to jade at all. They should love you and want you to do what works best for you. If there are any eggshell two steps involved, all the more reason to schedule what works for you and your husband. Phooey on what the foo's think - do what works for you. Just decide and get on with it and enjoy your time with both of them however it is divided.
Re: that JADE thing - yes, I agree that you don't have to explain yourself to anyone but it does help the FOO that gets less time with the family to understand what's going on. There are plenty of FOOs here who feel shafted when the other FOO gets more attention. I think it's thoughtful of you to be concerned about them.
Oh Elise, I don't think the OP's worry is misplaced. You know we're all dealing with the same type of person here, and some people are NEVER satisfied.
Once, early in our marriage, we went and spent a week with the IL's. Out of that time, we took a day and went to visit MIL's family, about 2 hours away. It was fun for DH to show me his GP's house and 'the lake' ect. When we got back, MIL told us that she expected us to stay another day because we took a day and we "owed" her.
Doe, I agree that an explanation would be nice, especially if you can say "well, sometimes we spend longer with you, sometimes we spend longer with my family, it's just not your turn this time". But again, it depends what kind of person you're speaking with. Some people are like the telemarketers who are trained to NOT take "no" for an answer, and for every "explanation" you give, they have a reason why it's not good enough. THOSE are the kind of people that should not get an explanations.
Is "JADE" the new buzz word? Like CO... and Time out... and 2yes-1no... and boundries, and Toxic? I've learned a whole new vocabulary since having DIL problems.. lol!! Sometimes out of common curtesy and respect one has to JADE in order to avoid hurt feelings. I see nothing wrong with explaining ones actions in order to have people understand the reasons behind it. Of course you (general) don't have to JADE, but that to me would indicate that someones feelings and/or misunderstanding the situation is not important and if they don't like it... they can just lump it. Not how one treats parents IMO. I think it's very nice of you to be concerned that they may be upset.
JADE's been around for several years, at least. It came up when I saw a counselor to deal with my issues with the son and daughter-in-law.
I was resistant to try it at first - it does sound rude. But as it was explained to me, women are socialized from birth to do it, and feel guilty if they don't. Men are not socialized to JADE. They say, "No, that won't work," and that's the end of it.
JADE-ing is a submissive behavior. It's something you have to do to people with power over you - your bosses, your teachers, and other authority figures. But once you're an adult woman, you have to resist this behavior. If you routinely "show submission" to other adults, they will begin to behave as if they have authority over you and your decisions. Then the real problems start: they try to change your mind by wheedling, arguing, invalidating your feelings, and so on.
It's a chicken-and-egg problem: do women JADE because they have less status and importance, or do they have less status because they feel compelled to JADE?
Anyway, a quick (one-sentence) explanation to the parents is probably okay. If they accept it, that's great. But if it turns into a five-minute interrogation, or they get hurt feelings, then that's a danger sign, and you need to stop JADE-ing with them in the future.
I can understand how "JADEing" can be constrewed as submissive, how ever the "I don't owe you an explanation for anything" is just plain rude... especially when it's used to hurt someone or disregard their feelings. Of course no one owes anyone an explanation, but what a callous would we would live in. When it's used that way against family or people who are supposed to be loved ones, it can be hurtful. There are ways to deliver verdicts without being callous. There are ways to spare the feelings of others. I don't think it's proper to hurt someone just because you can or have a right to. I have a right to wear a string bikini, but that doesn't make it less hard on the eyes... right? I think the operative word here is being "considerate" of how others are affected by our actions.
I think this will always be a slippery slope because of perceptions. Some would never ask for an explanation or even think about it...some would want more of an explanation...some wouldn't accept any explanation and some would argue the validity of all explanations, It can a social-cultural-personal thing. I just loved my mom's, "Because I said so!"
I know it isn't realistic, but wouldn't it be great to be able to say, "Question any of this, and your name gets dropped off the list!"
I once knew a girl named JADE...and she was nice...
Obviously, frostily retorting, "I don't owe you an explanation!" is going to offend. No one's arguing that.
However, calmly and pleasantly saying, "No, that won't work for us," is perfectly polite. Remember, men interact in this way all the time, and no one's feelings are hurt.
In stilltrying2010's case, I would actually recommend not bringing up how long they'll be visiting other family members. The conversation can go like this:
---------
* st2010 "Hey, we'd like to come visit you for 5 days!"
* mil: "Sounds good; we'd love to see you!"
---------
Rather than this:
---------
* st2010: "Hey, we only have 2 weeks of vacation, and we want to see you for 5 days of it.
* mil: (silence)
* st2010: "Well, uh, yes, we'll be with my family for the rest of the time. Eight days, actually. But it's only because we saw you so recently."
* mil: (silence)
* st2010: (a little desperately). "We're not favoring my family, I swear! It's just because we saw you for two weeks. We like you as much as them. We just want to be fair. My mom will have hurt feelings otherwise."
* mil: (starting to wonder what st2010's mom's problem with her is) "Oh. Okay."
---------
Which conversation is actually more polite? Which would you rather be on the receiving end of?
I don't think any Dm/MIL would object to seeing both sets of GP's , if they did , then that's being picky
and unreasonable .
The fact that they wanted to stay with me for any length of time would be wonderful .
Unless there is a history of problems ,if there isn't , what's the problem ?
Everyone gets to see the family , it's a win win situation .
Of course it isn't fair. Life ain't fair and no matter how fair you try to make it, someone can always spin it another way to feel like they're getting the short end of the stick. The best thing would be not to draw attention to the disparity of number of days. If someone notices and asks about it, saying that that was what the voices in your head said to do might bring the conversation to a halt. Expecially if you can manage to drool and bug out your eyes at the same time.
If the side with less days is complaining, you can just point out that the per-person-visit-days is actually in their favor. Five days divided by two people is 2.5 visit days per person. For the 8 days side, as long as there are 4 or more relatives you visit, they are getting less per person. Now, if the more days side complains, just leave early.
I used to have a very nice jade necklace.
I guess I just find it very difficult to imagine any FOO being offended that they are not getting the exact same amount of days for a visit. This is something that I would never think to be upset about. As I said upthread.. a 5 day visit complete with kids would be more than enough for me.... and God-Bless the other GM for putting up with 8 whole days of disruption and noise. I love my son and GKs very much, but sometimes smaller doses given more often is a much better thing. So since this is so far out of my rhelm of thinking I guess I erroneously jumped to the conclusion that the DIL must be exaggerating or making up problems where they do not exist. Sorry. There must really be MILs that would carry on about this sort of thing after all. It's just not something that would have crossed my mind..
Also... JADE makes lovely earings too...
P.S.
I have a lovely lavender JADE ring ..... :)
And I've heard of some JADE carvings running into the $$millions! :o
It happens even to the nicest MILs, Lillycache.
I have a dear cousin who just became a grandmother four years ago. She actually has a very good relationship with her DIL. When the baby was born, my cousin marked visits on her calendar. At thee end of the year, she was hurt that she only saw the baby for 22 days in her first year of life. The other grandmother had seen her for something like 42 days.
Sounds unfair, yes?
Well, the 22 days represented ALL of her son's vacation from work that year. He had gone nowhere else. He hadn't stayed at home to catch up on projects on his days off. He hadn't even been to see his wife's family for a year.
The other grandma got more days because the DIL (as a stay-at-home parent) had traveled alone with a colicky baby to visit her family. She had also asked her mother to stay and help out while she was having surgery, so her husband could save his vacation days for his FOO.
Regrettably, my cousin complained to them about the discrepancy. Since they felt that they had already gone "above and beyond" to give her time with her grandkid, they were pretty angry.
And the next year, they were *scrupulously* fair - her son spent exactly 12 days with his family, and exactly 12 days with hers. If the DIL spent any additional time with her own family, they were careful not to tell my cousin.
Eventually, my cousin managed an apology, and they forgave her. Things are better now. But it was still a pretty tense year.
I have a great relationship with my Mother and am not submissive to her wishes, but do offer explainations. Like she asked me last week if we were coming to a family get-together on Sunday at an Aunt's house. My response was, "No, we will not make this one because we had already planned a bike outing for the day but we'll be there for the family 4th." Ok. I didn't feel the need to explain because I'm submissive (and anyone that knows me would laugh if you someone used that word to describe me!), but just as a common courtesy to my Mother. I also don't feel guilty about it.
My husband also does his Mother the same and doesn't just say "Nope, can't make it." So not all men are that cut and dry. He also does it to be respectful and courteous.
Now, I do agree if you have someone that you have shown common courtesy to in the past and they did complain about it, lay a guilt trip or try to change your mind, I probably would take the "Nope, can't make it" route and not try to explain the next time knowing it wouldn't do any good.
I never not gave an explanation (really short although) until in law problems. If I couldn't make it to anyone's party, I usually said the truth "we already had plans, sorry!" same with my FOO. So I did that with my in laws too and they would want to know what plans. I'd tell them. They'd want to know when I made the plans. I'd tell them. They would want to know why I wouldn't cancel my plans. I was silent. They would then go to DH to tell him, as if he didn't already know and question him. And try to get him to change his mind and then mine. There were also plenty of guilt trips thrown in along the way, "Pam considers her friends more important than us!" This went on for years so eventually I heard the JADE concept and just started saying "I'm sorry, we can't make it." Or rather DH started saying it once I heard the he deals with his family, you deal with yours.
One of our trying to mend the relationship conversations included personal growth I had to do -- it included canceling my prior plans and commitments to prove to DHs FOO something. I still don't know what they wanted me to prove!
I think that was the right thing to do for your situation Pam. You tried the courteous route and it wasn't accepted back with the same courteous manner. I would have stopped too trying to offer an explaination and went with that. That's when I think the JADE comes in.
That's why I was reserving my answer on the OP until she could offer if they would be receptive or not. If not, then I'm with the others that said to just say, "We're coming for 5 days." If they have in the past shown themselves to be receptive and courteous, then I think telling them their plans with a "Since we just saw you for two weeks..." goes a long way with no hurt feelings.
How thoughtful of the OP to consider the feelings of her ILs. I hope those involved appreciate it!
Some of us ILs who really do get the short end of the short end cannot speak up for fear of sounding whiney & nitpicky. Rock, meet hard place. This thread has it a nerve w/me - my DS's FOO controls his vacation time, where it's spent & with whom it's spent.
DS spoke up once, so now we get part of every other Christmas Day before they head off for the annual fabulous trip w/ILs that uses up all DS's vacation time & travel budget.
now Pen , that is definitely unfair visitation .
I know that I will never get a Christmas with my DS and family , so I don't bother asking .
I have just accepted second place and learned to be happy with it , no point in me complaining
look where it got me last time ....without any visitation at all .
Quote from: Lillycache on June 27, 2012, 07:41:09 AM
I have a right to wear a string bikini, but that doesn't make it less hard on the eyes... right?
lol!
Have most of us missed the point of the original concern? I know I jumped in with assuming the FOOs are/might complain about unfairness, but rereading the OP, is it that DH and DW are not in synch on what's fair? That can be a major problem that JADE won't solve (unless dh is offering a whole lotta the jewelry sort...)
Anyway, if DH is crying unfair because his FOO gets less days, then that calls for serious discussion. Is it that he really thinks it's unfair or just imagines his FOO will think it's unfair? Very different scenarios with different solutions. As long as DH and DW are on the same page, then everyone else's complaints are just nuisances. I love Karenna's story because it highlights how important it is to get all the facts and not put your own assumptions/motivations/conclusions on someone else. I know I've stuck my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion because I assumed someone thought or felt or was motivated same as me.
Good Luck and I hope however your trip goes, it is lots of fun.
Good point, H. Here's my original post but I got distracted by the debate:
My Take: You two need to agree. That's it. And the sooner you learn not to give a rip how it is perceived the better!
Quote from: Scoop on June 26, 2012, 10:09:32 AM
It's not equal, but it's fair.
You won't be able to make everyone happy, so make your decisions (with DH of course) and go from there. You don't have to JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) your choices to anyone.
Are your IL's likely to complain?
;D I love what you wrote. I never heard of JADE....brilliant!!! ;D I will be borrowing that.
BTW, I agree with Scoop 100%
This JADE thing sounds so defensive to me, having been on the other end of it. There are several times that a little explanation from my DIl/DS would have helped ease family tensions. Once I was trying to work out an upset with my DIL - and she said she didn't have to explain anything to me. That was correct, she didn't - but I was trying to understand her more and build our relationship.
I have this feeling that not JADE-ing is a bit of a cop out when someone doesn't want to work on a relationship.
To JADE or not to JADE, that is the question...
As with most things, it'll vary situation to situation and person to person. I've known people who I wished would have practiced this technique because most of their communications were TMI (too much information). I don't think there's anything wrong with (politely) asking for an explanation or reason behind a decision - once. If the person (politely) declines to offer further info, then you have to accept that. I think JADE was intended to help people circumvent an infinite circle or questions upon questions upon questions. Parents JADE their young children all the time (Because I said so!). It's not uncommon for people of all ages to try to get someone to change their mind by relentless questioning, so this technique let's you put a halt to the whining.
I think if a person is trying to improve a relationship but comes across the JADE technique, then the burden is on that person not to jump to conclusions about why the other one is using JADE. Some people are just more private than others. Maybe the explanation involves a third person who doesn't wish certain info to be made public.
Quote from: Doe on July 01, 2012, 07:03:00 AM
This JADE thing sounds so defensive to me, having been on the other end of it. There are several times that a little explanation from my DIl/DS would have helped ease family tensions. Once I was trying to work out an upset with my DIL - and she said she didn't have to explain anything to me. That was correct, she didn't - but I was trying to understand her more and build our relationship.
I have this feeling that not JADE-ing is a bit of a cop out when someone doesn't want to work on a relationship.
I feel the exact same way Doe. Of course no one has to explain anything to anyone... if you live on an island. OR if you don't give a rat's patoot about the other person or their feelings. But if you value someone, and you consider them an important part of your life, your DH's life and your kids' lives, you can at the very least offer a rational reason for your actions. You don't have to submit... you don't have to acquiese, but you really should be kind. You can let that person know that you are not bargaining or negotiating, but at least they will be made privy to your thought process and have an understanding of the situation. There is nothing worse than sitting and wondering what the other person is thinking or what the reasons for their actions are.
I agree!
..but I can see there might be times when not JADEing is needed. I will not JADE to my evil SM or to the unlucky telemarketer who interrupted my dinner or my favorite show (we don't have a DVR.)
Quote from: herbalescapes on July 01, 2012, 09:55:12 AM
I think if a person is trying to improve a relationship but comes across the JADE technique, then the burden is on that person not to jump to conclusions about why the other one is using JADE. Some people are just more private than others. Maybe the explanation involves a third person who doesn't wish certain info to be made public.
lol - and maybe the person who is trying to understand will chuck the whole project of trying to understand because the other person who is not JADEing is soooooooooooooo complicated to figure out!
Sometimes it's not understanding that is needed - it's acceptance. At least that's what I found with my in laws, they questioned because they didn't understand, so they said. On the other hand, incessant questioning is an age old technique of trying to get someone to change their mind. At this point, the answers didn't matter to them, IMHO.
It's a fine line, that's for sure.