When you were kids, did you "duke it out" with DB/DS until DM/DF made you kiss and make-up, or did you have some negotiating/compromising skills then. I was definitely the former until DF made us find a compromise. While I no longer "duke it out" with DB (sometimes I'd like to lol), apparently he and I don't have those negotiating skills without the third party involved.
I do my best (don't always succeed) to see the situation from the other person's POV. My DB doesn't. I look for and see evidence that the other party is trying to make things better/compromise. (which my MIL is doing btw. I'm somewhat shocked by the change, but I think we will soon be *gasp* "friends"). My brother, well, unless it is 100% HIS way, he completely ignores all evidence of trying/compromise. He is certain that he is always 100% right in ever thing that he says or does.
So, how do you deal with a person who can't accept a half-way meeting point or ever give on their POV?
My SIL (DH's sis) has the same type of relationship with me unfortunately. Is there any hope for these relationships to have mutual respect?
Anyone think this is part of a "power" thing discussed in the "Lost for Words" thread? How do you develop a "balanced" ADULT relationship with the extended family members in your life?
Do we just need to sit back and wait for them to see the light or is there anything we can/should do?
Well, sometimes you can't - a balanced relationship implies participation by both people. If both people are not on the same page, and even one of the two is unwilling to actively seek common ground, there's no real basis for a balanced relationship. Sometimes, no matter how dearly you'd wish it, there's no action to be taken.
Adil, this is solely my opinion but I think you may be too close to the situation with your DB to evaluate him objectively.
In my FOO we just didn't fight too much or have a lot of sibling rivalry. We talked a lot, we verbally sparred a lot but I don't know that any of us consider that arguing. We were taught to be direct and to the point, talk things out. My parents encouraged us to work things out on our own and we all seem to be relatively well adjusted, well I think lol.
I agree with Eslieshaye, sometimes there's nothing you can do.
Adil I'm not commenting because I can't...Lol. My brother is 10 years older than me, so totally different dynamic. We were not allowed to duke it out because of our age difference.
Quote from: Pooh on May 19, 2011, 12:58:07 PM
Adil I'm not commenting because I can't...Lol. My brother is 10 years older than me, so totally different dynamic. We were not allowed to duke it out because of our age difference.
DB wasn't supposed to hit me back! LOL
Quote from: pam1 on May 19, 2011, 12:48:06 PM
Adil, this is solely my opinion but I think you may be too close to the situation with your DB to evaluate him objectively.
Sadly, you are probably right. I soooo wish I had an unbiased third party who could look at me and say, "Well, DB has been doing X X and X to try to make things better and you are just overlooking them."
DB and I talked a TON growing up, but it was always about economical issues, or Biblical stuff, or schoolwork, nothing that was a "relational topic" or anything close to "feelings." Everyone in my family has always bottled up their emotions and never discussed them It's annoying. It might seem Fruedian of me but I really do want to know "How does that make you feel?" lol Followed by the "What can be done to fix this?" and "What can you do to compromise and help move this forward?"
I can tell you that my boys were 17 months apart and for the first couple of years, I wouldn't let the older one hit the younger one back. I would tell him he was bigger and I would take care of getting on to the younger one. Finally, when the older one was about 4 and the younger 3, when he hit him...I looked at the older one and said, "Get him!" I don't know which one of their faces were funnier. Needless to say, the younger one stopped.
HaHa! I didn't think it was "Needless to say." My brother eventually hit me back, but I did NOT stop. WE did NOT stop until one of us couldn't move anymore (usually me lol).
Funny Pooh! I know a couple of my younger brothers that are physical fighters, they are both proud when they gave each other a bloody nose for the first time. Both examining who had more blood lol. But that was fairly uncommon and I can't recall any physical fights among the older siblings.
Adil, I do remember you saying at one point that your DB mentioned something about the first year of marriage being hard and something about you interfering when he first wed. Maybe you can try to examine your actions now that you guys are on a break? In the other thread you had going about it, I remember thinking this way too too too much drama for anyone to deal with and wasn't surprised when your DH blew a gasket. TBH, that much drama doesn't come from just one party.
You are right. Both sides are to blame here. I KNOW we must have done something to make them upset with us before the blow-up. I don't however know WHAT the something was to apologize for it and change going forward. :-\
I still have no idea what DB is referring to about interference during their first year of marraige. I barely saw them that year because of the guy I was dating. (DB and EX loathed each other and refused to be in the same room lol). I did break up with that bonehead (about 8 mo. marraige for them) and had a lot of issues with him (he made me cry a Lot). Hmmmm... Maybe I cried to him more than I realized. They never said anything. Shoot! I bet that's it. :-\ Dang! how do I apologize for that now? Kinda silly to me to resent someone over it.
Well, just had that "breakthrough." Maybe I can have one about why they hate DH and I so much lol
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 19, 2011, 10:48:47 AM
So, how do you deal with a person who can't accept a half-way meeting point or ever give on their POV?
My way is pretty simple. I don't.
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 19, 2011, 10:48:47 AM
So, how do you deal with a person who can't accept a half-way meeting point or ever give on their POV?
I am less open with this people that I normally would be. I pull back, and never debate and I basically treat their opinion as if I was hearing a factoid for the first time. I don't feel compelled to argue that way, and it keep the peace somehow.
There are some things that don't need a half-way meeting point too. If someone is talking about something in their lives and I know how obstinate they are, I sort of assume they don't want my point of view. I don't need to waste time telling someone else what they should be doing when they aren't going to change their minds anyhow.
My SisIL (DB's wife) is one of those people who is always right. Even if she changes her mind from what she was doing and does the COMPLETE opposite, she's STILL right. Once she even argued with me over how much her son weighed when he was born (and *I* was right!).
But we want a relationship with my brother and my niece and nephew so we put up with her. We let her talk and we don't pick a fight with her over the outrageous things she says. We know that if we cause a fight with her, then she can make it impossible for us to see my brother and the DN's, without batting an eyelash. So we just go on the "yeah yeah whatever" path. We let her talk and we don't comment about it. "Is that so?"
I know your DB tries to counsel you on financial matters, so, let him talk, "uh huh ... uh huh, oh well, we'll think about it".
Just remember that he can say whatever he wants, but you don't have to follow it!
Have you asked your brother why he is upset? If he won't tell you falt out there is nothing you can do to change. You can think of everything you think might have gone wrong but that might not be it at all. It could be something you are unware you did. Or maybe the simple answers is you did nothing at all and your brother is just well being a jerk.
I had a friend who got married the same time I did we got married 3 weeks apart, and we were both in each others wedding parties. I was so excited getting married at the same time, I thought we would have fun planning our wedding together. But it didn't turn out that way. A long list of crazy things happen:
1. She was excluding me from bridesmaids mettings.
2. Her first maid of honor was rude in planning the whole wedding shower by herself then demanded money for it. She didn't want help planning but we were to line her pocketbooks. I refused to pay telling her if she wanted my help she should have asked that I was not a bank.
3. She kicked the maid of honor out because she was starting fights and she was telling the bride she would wear her dress strapless if she liked it or not.
4. Two weeks before her wedding the harrassing phone calls began. Telling me that if I did not pay the former maid of honor back she would show up with her sister in toe at my former friends wedding and ruin her night. I called my friend and told her that I would do whatever she wanted no questions asked. She said pay the money so she could be assured she would not show up. I did and the wedding ran pretty smooth. I was late at her house because of a hair issue.
The day of my wedding came and I heard her make some comment to my other BFF. She was my matron of honor my sister was my maid of honor. They both made speeches. She made me smile and it was very nice speech. My wedding day was the last time I saw her. We talked because harrassing phone calls continued even on my wedding day from her former friend. They even were harassing her and making some pretty mean comments about her family. We talked right up though my honeymoon. Then she stopped answering her phone. Thinking she was just busy I called and one day her DH picked up. She sounded annoyed to be on the phone. I asked her if everything was ok. She said yes she was just tired. And everything seemed to be fine it was a nice conversation and we talked about a double date. Well it never happen I never heard from her again after that.
When I learned she was pregnant on classmates.com I congradulated her on her new baby. She wanted to be friends again but I needed to know why and she said she didn't want to get into it. That it was in the past. I told her how could I fix something if I didn't know what it was. It took me a long time to think but I sometimes wonder if it really was me who need to be fixed or maybe it was her. Did I maybe do something sure I can see a few things that I probably could have handled differently. But you know what I am human and I can't change what I did. And if she won't tell me if those are the things that bothered her then I cant tell her I am sorry.
Sorry this was long giving background. I can't change what I don't know and I can't change a person. All I can do is be what I can be and that's it. If they don't want to talk about it or explain then its not my problem its theirs and they need to fix it not me. The thing is if he does answer make sure you are a. ready to hear it and b. That you listen to what he is saying.
Quote from: Holly on May 19, 2011, 08:35:55 PM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 19, 2011, 10:48:47 AM
So, how do you deal with a person who can't accept a half-way meeting point or ever give on their POV?
I am less open with this people that I normally would be. I pull back, and never debate and I basically treat their opinion as if I was hearing a factoid for the first time. I don't feel compelled to argue that way, and it keep the peace somehow.
There are some things that don't need a half-way meeting point too. If someone is talking about something in their lives and I know how obstinate they are, I sort of assume they don't want my point of view. I don't need to waste time telling someone else what they should be doing when they aren't going to change their minds anyhow.
I wasn't refering to politics, religion, the economy, and those sorts of things about different POV. I meant how do you deal with the whole "they hate me and I don't know why?"
In my apology, I commmmented that we have felt the tension between them and us for a long time and it was wrong of us to not adress it sooner and just let it reach the point of blowing up.... To which my brother responded "Yes, it has been causing tension between Wife and I." Uh, What? I wasn't talking between the two of them! I was talking between DB/SIL and DH/ME. He also thinks that he and wifey have never ever done anything wrong. I know that I'm not perfect and know that I must have done Something to make them act this way. Soooo, by POV I meant natural accurences in life like that.
Quote from: Scoop on May 20, 2011, 04:57:32 AM
My SisIL (DB's wife) is one of those people who is always right. Even if she changes her mind from what she was doing and does the COMPLETE opposite, she's STILL right. Once she even argued with me over how much her son weighed when he was born (and *I* was right!).
But we want a relationship with my brother and my niece and nephew so we put up with her. We let her talk and we don't pick a fight with her over the outrageous things she says. We know that if we cause a fight with her, then she can make it impossible for us to see my brother and the DN's, without batting an eyelash. So we just go on the "yeah yeah whatever" path. We let her talk and we don't comment about it. "Is that so?"
I know your DB tries to counsel you on financial matters, so, let him talk, "uh huh ... uh huh, oh well, we'll think about it".
Just remember that he can say whatever he wants, but you don't have to follow it!
I have that "Yeah whatever" approach (DH apparently does not loll and neither do DB/SIL). I used to argue with my brother, but now I let it go. He is like your SIL and thinks he is always right on every subject. *eyeroll* lol
Hi Anon. Yours is the DB who called or emailed your and DH's friends, and told them all DH was a liar, because one time when people were telling animal stories, DH shared that he once drove by a bear in the mountains of Pennsylvania (where bears live) ?
Quote from: SassyDI on May 20, 2011, 05:01:26 AM
Have you asked your brother why he is upset? If he won't tell you falt out there is nothing you can do to change. You can think of everything you think might have gone wrong but that might not be it at all. It could be something you are unware you did. Or maybe the simple answers is you did nothing at all and your brother is just well being a jerk.
If they don't want to talk about it or explain then its not my problem its theirs and they need to fix it not me. The thing is if he does answer make sure you are a. ready to hear it and b. That you listen to what he is saying.
The "jerk" thing.... I really try to see the best in people. I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one-- that I did something sooo unmentionable that offended them to the very core of their being. But, I have asked him in the past and he always says "Nothing." and stupid stuff like that. DH and I had a loooooooooooong talk about it last night and we both came to the same conclusion that he is just a jerk. :-\
So, it would seem that the problem is theirs and that there is nothing that I can do to fix it. Soooo, have things worked out with your friend? Are you friends again? I'm hoping so because it will give me hope that things will work out with DB.
Ready to hear it.... I'd like to think I'm ready, but I'm just not sure. I'm so hurt because this has seemingly come from nowhere. I've tried to think what I did or could have done differently, but am at a complete loss. Last Oct? DB told me that he didn't like me complaining to him about my IL's. Well, I did not complain to him again. Soooo, I view that as a moot point and not worthy of a cut-off because I completely changed my behavior. I knew it bothered him so I stopped. DB also claimed that DH is a racist (he is NOT by any means, he just isn't a fan of the president). Well, DH stopped any and all comments that could in any way shape or form be construed as racist. (This was over a year ago so once again moot point in my eyes).
DH thinks they just wanted some lame excuse to cut us off so we wouldn't go with them to OC this year. "WE"-- DB/SIL/DH/I/Few other friends-- have been taking an annual trip to OC since DH and I first got together. Thing is, even if we had been invited this year or wanted to go, we couldn't because DH is in school on the weekends that he can't miss.
I'd really like to think that my brother isn't a jerk, but it really seems like he is.
Quote from: Sassy on May 20, 2011, 05:33:58 AM
Hi Anon. Yours is the DB who called or emailed your and DH's friends, and told them all DH was a liar, because one time when people were telling animal stories, DH shared that he once drove by a bear in the mountains of Pennsylvania (where bears live) ?
Yep, he's the one. He also made a few other claims that DH said "xxx" and I thought "OMG! DH is a jerk!" I ask the friend that "xxx" was supposedly said to and she wanted to know what I was talking about. My DB expects me to believe everything he says to me no matter what. If there is a way to verify (another friend involved), I will always find out both sides before passing judegment.
My DB is the opposite. First person to share the story must be the one telling the truth. Thing is, there are different "shades" of the truth. One person will remember something one way and another will remember it another way. The Actual 100% Beyond a Shadow of a Doubt Truth is somewhere in the middle.
We are facebook friends if you call that working it out. She added me trying to bebest friend me and nope it didn't work. By that point my DD was 2 and we had been both married for 6 years and after 6 years I was over it. I don't dislike her but I don't have the feeling of friendship for her that I use to. So sorry can't give you that happily ever after.
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 20, 2011, 05:45:47 AM
Quote from: Sassy on May 20, 2011, 05:33:58 AM
Hi Anon. Yours is the DB who called or emailed your and DH's friends, and told them all DH was a liar, because one time when people were telling animal stories, DH shared that he once drove by a bear in the mountains of Pennsylvania (where bears live) ?
Yep, he's the one. He also made a few other claims that DH said "xxx" and I thought "OMG! DH is a jerk!" I ask the friend that "xxx" was supposedly said to and she wanted to know what I was talking about. My DB expects me to believe everything he says to me no matter what. If there is a way to verify (another friend involved), I will always find out both sides before passing judegment.
My DB is the opposite. First person to share the story must be the one telling the truth. Thing is, there are different "shades" of the truth. One person will remember something one way and another will remember it another way. The Actual 100% Beyond a Shadow of a Doubt Truth is somewhere in the middle.
And let me guess when you confronted him about the lie he got all mad that you asked the friend.
Adil, I doubt they hate you. I think since he said it is causing issues between his wife and him, there may be some boundary crossing neither know how to deal with. It doesn't mean they won't admit they are wrong, rather they are in a similar boat as you -- confused.
If you went to them about an Ex that was hurtful, I think an older brother would be suspicious of any other significant other. Is it possible you tell DB/SIL a little too much? I gather when he said they don't want to hear about your ILs that maybe they feel a little put upon with hearing some of these issues. It might feel like a burden to them.
I know my friends don't want to hear me ranting about my ILs, they like hearing the amusing stuff though lol.
Dang! I'm still their FB friend, but I've blocked their statuses from coming up in my news feed so I don't have to read SIL's passive agressive comments... Well, I'll still hope. DH stilll has hope. thinks it is going to take a few years though.
Actually, I never confronted DB about his lie. As far as I know, he has no idea that I found out. I caught SIL in a similar lie. She told me a color choice was my mom's idea. I asked mom "Aren't you concerned that the girls in cream and the guys in white might make it look washed out?" She told me "That's what SIL wants."... I never confronted SIL about her lie either. While Honesty is important to me, I don't feel the need to "out" the liar. I just don't believe 100% of everything anyone tells me.
Quote from: pam1 on May 20, 2011, 05:56:07 AM
Adil, I doubt they hate you. I think since he said it is causing issues between his wife and him, there may be some boundary crossing neither know how to deal with. It doesn't mean they won't admit they are wrong, rather they are in a similar boat as you -- confused.
If you went to them about an Ex that was hurtful, I think an older brother would be suspicious of any other significant other. Is it possible you tell DB/SIL a little too much? I gather when he said they don't want to hear about your ILs that maybe they feel a little put upon with hearing some of these issues. It might feel like a burden to them.
I know my friends don't want to hear me ranting about my ILs, they like hearing the amusing stuff though lol.
I know now that I definitely don't tell DB/SIL too much. I don't talk to them about DH at all. Learned my lesson on that one. I didn't think it was an issue since BOTH of them complained about the other to me, but it was apparently an issue for them so they haven't heard a single thing about DH since last September.
I haven't "ranted" about my IL's anywhere around them since last October. I did mention at a game night they came to a funny remark DH's sister made "I mean, everything in their house is stolen!" I thought it was the funniest thing that I've ever heard and so did everyone, BUT DB/SIL.
And once again, SIL's family was drug through the mud for us for a year and a half while DB/SIL had cut them off. So, I didn't see it as an issue. (We incidentally were caught in the middle of that war because we are good friends with SIL's family) My DB really seems to have a HUGE issue with double standards. He can do whatever he pleases, but I'm not allowed.
Too too too much drama.
I think once you get to a certain age, you really can't compare siblings. "Why does he get to that and I don't?" It's useless and frustrating b/c neither of you are going to change the other, you are both grown ups.
I'm guessing he is at a loss as you are in changing this dynamic in your relationship. It might help to pick up a modern etiquette guide? I really think that's a good portion of your issues with him Adil.
I doubt he hates you and cares about you a great deal, that maybe why his reaction seems extreme to you.
Quote from: pam1 on May 20, 2011, 06:18:39 AM
I'm guessing he is at a loss as you are in changing this dynamic in your relationship. It might help to pick up a modern etiquette guide? I really think that's a good portion of your issues with him Adil.
I don't understand. I'm changing the dynamic of the relationship because... I was the last to get married? ... I don't talk to him like I used to (per his request)? ... We'd like a relationship as a couple?
Do you think deep down he would have preferred I didn't get married at all because he doesn't like change?
I had a VERY hard time when he got married. We were VERY close. I'm VERY shy. All my friends were his friends. We did everything together-- bowling, skating, game nights. I had 0 friends apart from him. He started dating SIL my junior year in college. I lived on campus that semester. He had just graduated and I was completely alone (my roommate was his newly dumped ex-gf. Awkward!). It was a really bad time for me. I got up went to class, went to my room, did homework, slept. I didn't like to eat in the dining hall because I didn't have anyone to sit with (roomie wanted nothing to do with the sister of the guy who dumped her). I NEEDED my brother very much. Too much. (But I actually didn't see him at all that semester or the next beyond a few minutes in passing and when he came down for my b-day which was a few weeks before he met SIL). Do you think he misses that I don't need him anymore at the same time hating how much I did need him?
I'm not him so I can only tell you what I would think...
Needing a sibling is too much for anyone. It's a lot of pressure, not having friends apart from your sibling and your joint circle of friends probably hasn't helped. I think you may be inadvertently relying on him too much, in a way a grown sibling can't handle.
I think it has nothing to do with your marriage; it's a long held dynamic that is probably not very healthy for either of you. I think you're underestimating the effect this dynamic could have on him and his marriage. When he told you he felt as if you interfered with his first year of marriage that's not something said lightly by most people, imo. He truly felt that way and in saying it and after apologies from you, it's still isn't an easy thing for a newly married couple to just shrug away. I've noticed you say they should get over it or people shouldn't let words get to them quite a bit, imo it comes across as trying to control another persons reaction. They may feel that this is the dynamic they have with you and don't know how to change it.
I don't think it's a case of where one side is bad and the other is good, it's much more complicated than that. You talk about him a lot so I gather you care about him quite a bit but you haven't seemed to be able to accept how his personality really is. It's difficult for anyone to be in this kind of dynamic.
Soooooo, you think the "pressure" of interference was there for them, even if I wasn't actually there because he worried about me too much?
I do have friends apart him now. I maintain friendships with our joint group of friends from college. I'm not friends with most of "their" friends now. For the first time in 25 years we lead completely separate lives. Sooooo, my relationship with him was more of a parasitic one and was unhealthy for him--even though I had pulled away considerably when he met SIL.
Sooooooo, even though it breaks my heart to say it, I shouldn't try to mend the relationship because it was unhealthy (I don't want it to be the way it was, just want them to come to game nights) and we haven't figured out how to have a healthy relationship at this point on either end. He really is much better off without me in his life. :'(
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 20, 2011, 07:20:02 AM
Soooooo, you think the "pressure" of interference was there for them, even if I wasn't actually there because he worried about me too much?
I do have friends apart him now. I maintain friendships with our joint group of friends from college. I'm not friends with most of "their" friends now. For the first time in 25 years we lead completely separate lives. Sooooo, my relationship with him was more of a parasitic one and was unhealthy for him--even though I had pulled away considerably when he met SIL.
Sooooooo, even though it breaks my heart to say it, I shouldn't try to mend the relationship because it was unhealthy (I don't want it to be the way it was, just want them to come to game nights) and we haven't figured out how to have a healthy relationship at this point on either end. He really is much better off without me in his life. :'(
Nah, that's a little dramatic. Relationships ebb and flow. The key to maintaining them is flexibility. I have childhood friends that we speak to often and then kind of slow down at different times in our life, marriages being one.
He probably just needs some space.
QuoteSooooooo, even though it breaks my heart to say it, I shouldn't try to mend the relationship because it was unhealthy (I don't want it to be the way it was, just want them to come to game nights) and we haven't figured out how to have a healthy relationship at this point on either end. He really is much better off without me in his life.
DB and SIL don't like game night. That's why they don't (often) come to game night. He's decided he's better off right now, without
game night in his life. You've said they told you they don't like your friends. You've observed they don't find the same stuff funny. DB and SIL not coming to game night is not Anon punishment, it's DB personal preference. You're feeling punished or abandoned because you want that outcome (google "letting go of attachment to outcomes") and not getting it. To you, it's like he's witholding something. But he's doing something for himself, not
to you. Can you respect he knows what's right for him? I can say with absolute certainty: Not coming to game night doesn't = hate Anon.
QuoteI meant how do you deal with the whole "they hate me and I don't know why?"
Assumptions. You certainly don't know they hate you. I highly doubt they hate you. Space (that elbow room) is good for growth. Make the most of it. You can make the most of it by focusing on you and not him during it. Every time your thoughts wander to him,
catch yourself, calm yourself, and bring it back to you.QuoteHe also thinks that he and wifey have never ever done anything wrong. I know that I'm not perfect and know that I must have done Something to make them act this way.
You
must have done something to make them act this way? You/me/anyone can't know
what they think. Assumptions. Because you think they think they're perfect, or, because they act as if they think they're perfect, does not mean they're perfect. They act this way because it's what is working for
them right now. If telling a bear story sets off a spate of he's lying emails, it does not mean you did something other than tell a bear story. (Secret: People who act like they think they're perfect often are extra certain they're not, and are trying to hide and compensate for it.)
There's a huge long dysfunctional history between you and DB (the school scenario was like reading a story of an elderly widowed woman who lost her spouse; it was not functional). You've both grown since then. There's a dynamic with each of your spouses thrown in the mix. There's extra tension on top from DB's (delusiony) hysterics and your habit of assuming the worst. Habits can be broken. Taking a breather, elbow room, space is the healthiest thing right now. The future does not exist. Stay in the now. Stay in the space you're actually in.
We can practice
catching the myriad of Assumptions as they're created (you could start by looking for them when others make them, which is what I am doing). We can recognize, acknowledge how little we actually know. That way we can avoid the distress caused by reacting to false or invented thoughts, such as "they hate me."
Quote from: pam1 on May 20, 2011, 10:53:45 AM
Nah, that's a little dramatic.
I wasn't trying to be "dramatic" :-\ Just the progression of my thoughts. As I described myself, even I wouldn't want to be around me. It was a very unhealthy relationship. It really does sound parasitic.
Sassy, I understand what you are saying. I need to stop over-analyzing the situation. Everyone is allowed to make the decisoins that are best for them. And as much as I hate it, space really is for the best.
Quote Everyone is allowed to make the decisoins that are best for them.
I think what could be comforting is not that he's
allowed to make his decisions, but remember that
his decisions (some of them, anyway - histrionic emails aside) are meant for helping him, not for hurting you. He
has to make the ones that are best for him and SIL, in order to grow. What you'll find eventually is that most of ones he makes
because they are
genuinely best for him (lies about DH to mutual friends aside) are probably best for you, too.
Hey Anon, I thought about you last night. I wished I was at game night.
I was thinking about what you had written, and pam. Three thoughts popped up. One was about boundaries. One was about family systems theory and family styles. The other, related, was pam's excellent suggestion about the modern etiquette books. Manners really truly are a way to have, keep, and respect boundaries without making yourself or the other person feel uncomfortable. When people get uncomfortable pain, impatience, being short, even lies come out. I have heard manners referred to as grease for the wheels, to keep it running smoothly. The cogs between you and DB get jammed, and I agree the grease will help. I sincerely hope this is something you look into. As in, going to the bookstore this weekend and finding one that you enjoy the writing style of. Especially during this "space" time, so you can be all brushed up on them when the tide rolls back in.
Sometimes when someone wants boundaries, and they have trouble maintaining them, they end up doing things to keep them, that end up hurting someone even when they didn't mean to. They just wanted to keep up their boundaries. I may have asked this question before, please forgive me I don't recall : If you invite DB and SIL to game night, and they pass on the invitation, would you or DH ask them, "Why not" or "Why can't you come?" Would them saying "No, but thank you" be enough?
If you do ask them for a "valid reason" so to speak (which I cannot recall and don't know), it seems you may not realize not realize that asking someone "why not" is pushing past social boundaries. It's inappropriate. It will make someone uncomfortable. It is not good manners to ask "why not.". If your DB and SIL have their boundaries violated like that (by being asked something that is 100% not the asker's business) and they don't have the etiquette set yet, to stay mannerly when their boundaries are violated, such as explaining "sorry we won't be able to join you", they may end up letting their violated feeling take the best of them, and "lie." They may say "oh we have another party" in an attempt to "grease the wheel" while maintaining their boundaries.
Accusing someone of lying, when they were trying to maintain boundaries against being crossed, may have felt like a double-cross. For example, supposed I asked someone if they bleached their hair. That would be a nosy question. It would be rude of me. If I asked a stranger, it would be obviously rude. But if I asked someone I expected to have less boundaries with, such as a good friend, I may not feel I was being rude. I might assume, They're not supposed to have boundaries with me, we're supposed to be close, which for me means we have no boundaries between us! In response to my boundary crossing question, someone with easy manners at the ready would demure "A lady never tells." Someone else might tell me "That's is none of your business!" A third person might "lie" say "No I don't." If then find a box of hair bleach in their bathroom, and indignantly accused her of lying to me, you can see where that would go downhill fast.
The sad part about the story is, my hair bleaching lying friend did love me, did want to be close to me. But she also wanted some privacy. More than I realized. And by pushing past her boundaries by violating her privacy (the same respect for privacy I would know to give a stranger) , and getting angry at her when she had done something I deemed "unethical" or "hurtful" to maintain them, the original closeness is at risk. If I had respected her boundaries, and then respected her right to maintain them with the skills she had, then we could have stayed close.
Your topic here is going From Child to Adult Relationship. When I think about your days in school, and how close you and your brother were, I see there were almost no boundaries between you. You were more like a social couple, one unit, than two separate siblings. Family systems styles evolve as families grow and change. There is a family systems style called "enmeshed." Enmeshed families have open or fluid boundaries. When you and your brother were close, there was no privacy, and you each felt you got a say in the other's private affairs as if they were their own. Your brother still feels he has a say in your marriage, and you want and deserve a boundary from that.
As he left school and you got older, your family style changed. You were supposed to became more separate individuals, instead of the unit. I think the adjustment from one to two was difficult for both of you, but absolutely necessary for you to have other adult relationships. Your brother said he felt his first year of marriage was interfered with. When you had a bad relationship with your ex, or when you didn't have one, he may have felt like he was supposed to still be "one" with you. But he had to form a new social unit, that of he and his wife. I imagine he went through a lot of internal struggle when he had to extract from you. And its possible SIL felt like you were wanting to share DB (her husband) and like any new bride, she doesn't want to have such open boundaries, lack of privacy, to that degree, with anyone else except her spouse.
Mature people with a different set of skills would have been able to maintain their boundaries without getting snappish, or even nasty. But DB and SIL were-are not mature. So they use the tools that a child has - yelling, lying, throwing elbows, as it were. In an attempt to extract themselves from enmeshment (families with young children are enmeshed, it is healthy to be enmeshed in that stage, but not much past it) into a healthy relationship with actual boundaries. To get from enmeshed to "flexibly connected" or another appropriate adult family style requires grace and skill. If your DB lacks these, he may just be able to go from enmeshed to disengaged.
The book Boundaries by Cloud & Townsend can help explain why healthy boundaries help relationships, and how to use them.
Here's a chart of family styles: http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/PS1012/images/circumplexmap.jpg
(Another link related to family systems theory: http://www.webofloneliness.com/publications/critical/systems_theory.htm )
Quote from: Sassy on May 21, 2011, 05:22:04 AM
If you invite DB and SIL to game night, and they pass on the invitation, would you or DH ask them, "Why not" or "Why can't you come?" Would them saying "No, but thank you" be enough?
When I originally asked, SIL's response was "That's my brother's b-day party." Her sister, my BFF "That's my brother's b-day but I don't know what day we are celebrating yet, I'll get back to you."... Okay, I didn't say anything to either of them except maybe "Bummer, maybe next time" kind of thing. I must say that I viewed SIL's response as a lie because the party wasn't planned yet (I sent the text to all the people on the list at once so it wasn't like I asked SIL and THEN asked BFF.)... I was VERY disappointed. I know I said as much to DH because they have never come to one of our game nights, but we are expected to go to all of theirs. (Our house is larger and more comfortable for hosting, which I think annoys my DB.) I DID NOT say anything to them.
When the time of the game night finally came around, I saw SIL's post on her DB's wall about seeing them for his party the next day. Hmmm.... I saw this as yet another lie and passive agressively (wrong I know) updated my status about loving it when I catch people in lies on FB. Yes, this was VERY immature of me and I shouldn't have done it. ... Anywho, I told DH, he asked if I wanted to re-extend the invite to them and I told him NO because I didn't want to see them. Well, DH went BEHIND my back and texted SIL. She told him "No, we are going to my brother's party." And DH called her a liar. ... (Incidentally she hadn't seen my FB status update until well after this. If I had known DH was going to pull this baloney I would have taken it down.)
Soooo, I was disappointed that they weren't coming to begin with, and I did assume it was a lie, but I figure it was because they just didn't want to come to our house.
As far as their boundaries with us, I just don't give them any info from our side lol. And they no longer gave info on their side and I certainly wasn't asking. It is interesting to note that my BFF (SIL's sister) lives with them.... Guess boundaries are only for DB's side of the family. :-\
I guess the question wasn't that important. It's a bigger picture than that. I still think the manners education will make dealing with them, and their rudeness, easier for you. The great thing about manners is you can use them even when someone else doesn't. Anyway, I hope you read the rest, and checked out the link on different family styles. Pertaining to your broader topic of "From Child to Adult Relationships" changing family styles as we grow, naturally can create growing pains. Especially with mismatched expectations. Yesterday I thought I saw a lot of self-blame from you, I ached for you. I hoped a tangible explanation of at least part of what seemed to be going on (changing family styles) could help you see the dynamic more objectively as natural, and not somuch with blame or fault for either side. Take care and have a peaceful lovely weekend...
Anywho, my point.... I'll definitely look into a modern ettiquette book and read it to DH as weel since he is the one who started this whole mess. I felt that I (apparently not DH) had maintained pretty healthy boundaries(at least since last Oct. lol) with DB/SIL. SIL used to be very open with me. She and DB were trying to have a kid and running into lots of problems. I NEVER asked because quite frankly I don't really care to know any of the details. If I were in her shoes I wouldn't have been sharing the details she was sharing. Her family is more open about sex lives and that sort of thing, I am NOT! (I swear, I have no idea why she felt the need to share that kind of info.)
Soooo, it's weird I didn't feel like she set up any boundaries with me until I got married. Not when she got married, when I got married. Do you think it is just because they don't like my DH? (which is obvious by the fact that DB has stated it lol). Do you think it is because they feel that HE isn't respecting their boundaries (which he obviously isn't-- I don't care how things are done in his family. Talk about enmeshed! Sheesh!).
Does it seem possible that because they don't like DH and don't want to let him into the "circle" that they feel I need to be out now? They have repeatedly told me that I've done nothing wrong (and they don't want to cut "me" off), but the just can't trust DH (i.e. "WE" are a unit, but you and your husband aren't allowed to be a unit). Unfortunately, I don't know how it got to this point or if there is any way of fixing it. DB believes that DH is a liar and nothing will change that belief.
Their "hatred" is for DH's whole family. BIL through the bachelor party. They were shooting skeet and targets. So he divided the ammo cost between the GM's and split DH's portion amoung them. DB had a royal fit. "They are trying to get me to pay for the whole thing!" So, DB didn't go. DH was crushed. We ended up paying my brother's share. And no, we never told him. Unfortunately, my DB continues to bring the bachelor party up. One of these times I'm going to end up telling him.
I guess these are just growing pains for the new family. I'll check out a book and DH and I will work through it together.
ADIL I think you need to just stop worrying about if they show up or not. Honestly it will at least make you feel better. I host parties at my house all the time I invite my one BIL and his boyfriend(the other two live out of state) and my sister and FBIL. My sister has showen up once and I just don't view it as a snide I just know she is busy. MY BIL and his boyfriend are kind of the same way. And its ok because I don't let myself stress about it.
I use to stress about Christmas. I am the kind of person who doesn't extend an invitation to other's if they have been asked by someone else. FIL wife does Christmas Day sometimes too and if she already invite people I back off. FIL Wife not so much when we invited the whole family (including them) for DD first Christmas she refused to come. So she decided not caring that i had invited everyone had her own Christmas party. The family showed up to my house and was going to their father's too but he got sick so he was in the hospital. That was the last Christmas I hosted because I wasn't going to stress myself every year. So I switched it to a breakfast Christmas Eve morning. She then tries to take over that too. Last year I invited just the sibs and it was fun but still I felt stressed because BIL tried to take it over. So you know what I am not doing any Christmas for his side anymore they can come visit when they want whatever time they want. My DH doesn't care because well he told me to stop years ago (Before DD was born)doing Christmas. because he didn't like the stress it caused him. So the lesson here girl just stop caring or just stop inviting them all together for you own sake.
Thanks, Sassy....
I definitely have a LOT of self-blame because I have pretty much NO self-esteem. lol ... Growing up, it was obvious in my family. DB was PERFECT and could do no wrong and well, I was in trouble all the time. I was told that "we" didn't get invited places very often because people didn't like me and when we did the people just put up with me becuse they like the rest of the family.... I think that why I have such a hard time making friends. I do have some friends and I know they love me just the way I am so this "belief" isn't true, but part of me (especially when hit with rejection from my DB) still thinks it is true... He even told me that in college. :-\
I'll admit, I am not always "tactful" and I am more than a little blunt. (I can be VERY diplomatic at times, but I have to work hard to be that way lol). Diplomacy comes natural to my DB. He would be a great politician. He LIES and tells you just what you want to hear. We are complete polar opposites. I don't have enough confidence in myself and he has waaaaay too much. I finally got a little vindication when he "attacked" one of our mutual friends. Finally someone else sees him as he really is.
SassyDI, it took me a sec to realize it was the "other" sassy lol... I thought, Wow, she has a FILW too! LOL
My SIL does the "take-over" too. Annoying as I don't know what! She will play hostess when she is at MY house/event. Really?
Quote Do you think it is because they feel that HE isn't respecting their boundaries (which he obviously isn't-- I don't care how things are done in his family. Talk about enmeshed! Sheesh!).
Have you observed that DH doesn't respect DB and SIL's boundaries? (Other than this latest instance?) Because sure, boundary stomping, even when done with the intentions of trying to bring someone close, can certainly be rude. Which will make people uncomfortable and want to avoid being treated rudely. As you may have observed for yourself, with some of DH's family.
QuoteDoes it seem possible that because they don't like DH and don't want to let him into the "circle" that they feel I need to be out now?
I was also looking around for the quote that DB doesn't like DM's BF either but can't find it. I think it was you who wrote that. Jealousy is a real possibility. But, I was also wondering about loss of control. Your DB obviously had control over you for a long time. (And not always in a good way, and for that I am very very sorry). From that I suppose it's possible DB may then see you as "someone to be controlled," and thus he could perceive DH as "the one controlling you" now, instead of him. Same with DM and BF? Like those other men took away his power to control? Look, this is a random shot in the dark about DB, but have you ever read anything about OCPD? (not OCD).
I can't think of any difinitive examples of DH overstepping boundaries with them at this moment. DB and DH are very different in personality and skills. Before DH came along, DB really was top dog in the group. DB was the only one anyone ever asked for advice on anything--even auto repairs, plumbing, etc. Well, DB knows squat about those areas, but everyone thinks that he knows. Well, DH actually KNOWS this stuff. I really think that DB is threatened by DH.
DH's family is more "upfront" and "blunt"? I think those are the terms I want lol... If you state something and don't know what you are talking about, DH's family will tell you so. Whereas, in DB's circle, we will agree that DB is right even if he isn't because his cranky attitude isn't worth dealing with. The knowledge that he is wrong even if he won't admit it is enough.
I think your point that he desires control over DM/I is very astute. When DF passed, he became the "man of the house." and I think it went to his head. DM was out of it for quite a while and DB pretty much took care of everything.