Since I'm taking this tele seminar with Josh Coleman I'm thinking more about the sociological issues affecting the family and couples.
So in the vein, I was reading this article about the situation young women find themselves in:
http://www.slate.com/id/2286240/pagenum/2
Interesting! Thanks! Sending love...
I don't think that this is a new issue of easy, free, cheap sex.... I believe free love without commitment actually became popular in the 60's. While casual sex is not on necessarily on the rise, the price is... more young women are turning away from abortions, the rise of std's .. guess it's all in how you look at it... I think they missed the mark in this article on where to place the dollar values of casual sex.
Laurie,
I found several points interesting especially that women are achieving more than men. (we are still not earning the equivalent, far from it)
Women seem to be having unwanted sex. I'm not sure that was true in the 60's and 70's, its possible.
and that:
"But just as critical is the fact that a significant number of young men are faring rather badly in life, and are thus skewing the dating pool. It's not that the overall gender ratio in this country is out of whack; it's that there's a growing imbalance between the number of successful young women and successful young men. As a result, in many of the places where young people typically meet—on college campuses, in religious congregations, in cities that draw large numbers of twentysomethings—women outnumber men by significant margins.
Good point that they didn't mention the std's.
Women have always had unwanted sex, to some degree...historically. The last word to enter our vocabulary, when I was growing up was "No." That was about anything, no just sex. Many of my generation, (growing up in the in the 1930s) weren't taught choice as a valid option. Compliance (at all cost) was highly valued.
Interesting point Luise.
I graduated hs in 62, in that time period women were supposed to abstain from sex till marriage. Not that we did.
I do hear friends talk about having sex when not in the mood to please or be kind to dh.
In my day we all (in my social-cultural group which was described as mid-west, upper middle class)) abstained from sex until after marriage. The few exceptions were "bad" girls. Most of the guys did, too. Through the war..through college. I started dating at 13 and was 21 when I married. Still a virgin. In many ways that ethic made things a lot easier. The down side was that the guys knew nothing and when two people know nothing it's zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. None of us could figure out what was so great about it. Even though I went through nurses' training I knew nothing and never inquired. It wasn't done. When I left my marriage after 18 years I was still uninformed and unawakened.
Very interesting Luise, thanks for sharing.
In my day even though we were supposed to be virgins, we could make out all we wanted.
Sexy slow dancing....and a little more.
We slow danced and we jitterbugged. At my school, (public) we averaged a formal dance every month. We did hay rides and kissing was OK but we behaved ourselves.
Quote from: Laurie on March 05, 2011, 04:47:42 PM
I don't think that this is a new issue of easy, free, cheap sex.... I believe free love without commitment actually became popular in the 60's.
I don't think there is such a thing as "free love without commitment" for women. That's the rub. Women's bodies release oxytocin - the bonding chemical - during sex. Good sex makes a woman want to stay with a man, to get married. But hey, if the love is "free", the man wants exactly the opposite!
I believe "easy, free, cheap sex" is great for the guys and terrible for women. I try to warn my daughter about the effects of oxytocin, but she doesn't do what women have traditionally done to protect themselves (the NO word). And so, when her guy gives her the heave-ho after a few months, she calls me in tears. It's a never-ending cycle.
Maybe it started with my generation, because sex was not a big deal. To be perfectly honest, I had to laugh at the term "wooing" that was used. In the words of Vivien the main character in Pretty Woman, "I say who; I say when;". I use to say that I wouldn't buy a pair of shoes without trying them on either.. Now in todays world that doesn't even hold true :) This article paints a picture of women appearing to only be looking for long term commitments and almost seems to be warning about weakening your chances for that relationship if they continue to have sex to early or easily.
Meanwhile the article clearly speaks about the declining rate of marriages and seems to equate the ease of gaining a sexual relationship with a female with that decline. But does not seem to factor in the reality of how many in this age group were actual affected by being raised with divorced parents and they are not entering into the same commitment as quickly.
I just don't know if these things add up to sex being the problem with society and the family unit. I believe that we have been raised and more so we are raising children who are not capable of self drive. Overindulgence and entitlement seem to be larger factors.
Quote from: seasage on March 05, 2011, 08:01:17 PM
Quote from: Laurie on March 05, 2011, 04:47:42 PM
I don't think that this is a new issue of easy, free, cheap sex.... I believe free love without commitment actually became popular in the 60's.
I don't think there is such a thing as "free love without commitment" for women. That's the rub. Women's bodies release oxytocin - the bonding chemical - during sex. Good sex makes a woman want to stay with a man, to get married. But hey, if the love is "free", the man wants exactly the opposite!
I believe "easy, free, cheap sex" is great for the guys and terrible for women. I try to warn my daughter about the effects of oxytocin, but she doesn't do what women have traditionally done to protect themselves (the NO word). And so, when her guy gives her the heave-ho after a few months, she calls me in tears. It's a never-ending cycle.
I don't think I'm that odd, but good sex was simply good sex... I did not find myself drawn towards marriage due to even fantastic sex.
I can't recall the age of your daughter Seasage. My dd is 23 and while I do not pry into her sex life, we did recently have a chat about 'Mr Perfect' and when sex came up I told her that I (meaning that she did not need to feel the same way) felt that sex is a huge part of marriage and that knowing that you are compatible was wise.
If a woman continues to say "no" when is she suppose to say yes? Could the breakup cycle be based more on her expectations of a long term commitment and pressures placed on that relationship that he may not be ready for.
My dd is 23 and while I do not pry into her sex life, we did recently have a chat about 'Mr Perfect' and when sex came up I told her that I (meaning that she did not need to feel the same way) felt that sex is a huge part of marriage and that knowing that you are compatible was wise.
Laurie, I'm impressed with the quality of communication you have with your daughter.
Thanks Tara... I've always had a easy time communicating with my kids. I use to purposely take them individually on short trips a few hours long, because I saw that my kids talk better and more openly when I was driving and constant eye contact was not made. Helping them realize that their fears and thoughts are often the same for others and that they were never abnormal for thinking or feeling in a certain manner. Also there was no subject that was off limits.. had to curtail a few subjects at the dinner table... but in the right place I'll talk to my kids about anything under the sun.
Unsolicited advise to DIL's with young children.... take your kids on long drives and let them talk away :) it really works
My take on the 60's/70's was that a lot of women were having unwanted sex and were often treated horribly by their so-called socially-aware, peace & love male partners. No one wanted to be called a prude or a tease or a frigid b-word, so many girls & women would give in when they weren't that into it. Even the grungy, less attractive guys felt entitled to strut around like desirable studs and often expressed anger when turned down. Good times.
I was very lucky to have had positive experiences. I'm grateful I had the good sense to bed & wed my DH. All men back then weren't prancing around like God's gift, LOL.
Laurie, I experienced the same phenomenon, just didn't know why it happened until you mentioned the eye contact thing. When I managed to be less chatty they'd say more. I was disappointed when headphones and earbuds became constant accessories.
Being a baby boomer and going to Catholic school it was simply "wrong" to have pre-maritial sex~~we were raised with the "Fear"~~I guess the fear of God or, as my Mother always impressed upon me~"Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free!" Even in highschool no one walked down our halls pregnant for no one was, vs now a days there are so many young girls pregnant, and they simply do not care if they are...There is no shame or blame.
When my Boys were growing up--OMG that was always a fear of mine--becoming a Grandmother when they were 15, 16 years of age!? And I would talk with them about this--don't play for you will pay etc etc.....when they began dating and heading out the door to pick up their girl my last words were always~~"Behave yourself..." and I would hear yea, yea, yea.....I guess I can say, that yes, I did become somewhat of a Nag when it came to dating and sex........But, it worked.
I don't see much respect in our world anymore~~babies are having babies and I find that sad, are they not aware of birth control???????????????
This is part of the problem as I see it Faith... parents are raising their kids and using the fear of God to try and prevent unwanted activities. While this may work for some it's proven that this method alone is unsuccessful. I rather that my kids be armed with the knowledge of natural consequences for their decisions then to blanket their personal responsibilities with the fear of God.
Quote
I don't see much respect in our world anymore~~babies are having babies and I find that sad, are they not aware of birth control???????????????
I would sit in the bleacher amongst other parents and listen to the constant cackling of the 'not my daughter' dialog. I would think, instead of telling the world that your daughter would not be a bad girl, why not arm her with the information and products that she needed to be a smart girl.
Quote from: Laurie on March 06, 2011, 06:48:47 AM
This is part of the problem as I see it Faith... parents are raising their kids and using the fear of God to try and prevent unwanted activities. While this may work for some it's proven that this method alone is unsuccessful. I rather that my kids be armed with the knowledge of natural consequences for their decisions then to blanket their personal responsibilities with the fear of God.
QuoteAgreed Laurie, however in my post I wrote "Being a baby Boomer" and going to "Catholic School" (for 8 years of my life) we were taught the fear of God.....However, I did not send my boys to Catholic school, nor did I raise them on the fear of God.....Its old school and its not happening anymore. That is simply how I was raised.....end of story.
I told both of my sons about "paternity suits" and the financial ruination they couldn't bring for decades...because in my time there was no DNA. I explained what it would cost them to be careless. One claimed he was the only virgin in the Marine Corps...and after marriage, strayed. The other was active at 13 but wise. When commitment came, he was ready for it. I'm not sure anything I said or did had anything to do with how either of them dealt with the issue.
I do a lot of work for Planned Parenthood (not as much anymore, but I still managed a trip up to NYC last week for a rally), and the statistics show that teen pregnancy is declining. I can't tell you what specific thing is working (abstinence, better access to birth control, more open conversation with parents)...but I would think a combination of all of the above is probably working....also, I can't tell you the impact Google (insert any search engine name in place) has had on my life. It's been empowering; so long as I verify sources. I imagine my kids will know how to search for answers as well. I learned about HPV this way, Shingles, and PUPPP. When I finally sat down with my doctor to ask him for help with my miscarriages, he said, "You know what? You know more about this than I do...so I should be asking you these questions. You've been to all the sites I was planning on researching to get back to you with answers." The only thing he could offer was making it all more concise for me.
I think if less babies are having babies, that's a step in the right direction. I have to check the statistics often b/c it seems like I keep seeing more and more teen moms. It took me a minute to realize...they're not teen moms, they're just younger than me. :o The good news is, the numbers are declining; bad news: no one seems to be able to point out why. There was a brief jump in 2008 (when a lot of states were in financial crisis...so I'd wager birth control/sex education access was affected, but it could have just been a very frisky year!), but the numbers declined once more and have continued that trend since.
I've been raised to believe that sex is every bit as enjoyable for me as it is for a man, and that "No" means "No." My mom was also careful to point out that "sex" was not synonymous with "relationship" but that didn't mean I couldn't have it. I had a friend with benefits for years before I met my DH, and I think that friend kept me from looking for trouble. Neither of us expected a relationship to come of that, though, which is why I think it worked. Only problem: DH and I are married, and he asked me not to talk to this friend anymore. Done. I do get that.
Laurie: 30 hour car ride 2 years ago with my dad across country = best healing we ever had. No eye contact works wonders. I wasn't even a teen then.
Great success story! :D
Quote from: holliberri on March 06, 2011, 10:12:30 AM
I've been raised to believe that sex is every bit as enjoyable for me as it is for a man, and that "No" means "No." My mom was also careful to point out that "sex" was not synonymous with "relationship" but that didn't mean I couldn't have it.
I believe that no spin balanced advice is exactly what kids/young adults need to become balanced people. As my dd was entering the 9th grade she learned that one of her classmates was pregnant.. she came to me and asked if this girl had ruined her life.. I said you know babies do not ruin your life but they do alter your direction... watching this girl was probably the best example of what not to do that my dd ever had.
Quote
Laurie: 30 hour car ride 2 years ago with my dad across country = best healing we ever had. No eye contact works wonders. I wasn't even a teen then.
I knew that something was really bothering my son when he was about 8 or 9ish.. We went on a ride and he finally said, "mom I think there is something wrong with me" it was all I could do not to pull the car over.. but he went on to explain that when he took showers that he allowed himself to drift off into a world of make believe and he always became some heroic superpower. While showering in his mind he was capable of saving the world.. that also probably explained the thumping and jumping I always heard as he apparently had to physically restrain some of those villains :) I smiled and said do you want to know who I was when I was in my own little world.. Samantha from Bewitched.. how many of us tried to get that nose wiggle down :)
I knew something was up when in his senior year of college he found that I had to drive quite a distance to pick up my daughters Christmas puppy... and he piped up with hey if you're alone would you mind if I ride with you.... to this day I think the best conversations are in the car and if it's my husband and he doesn't like the conversation, well it's not like he's going to jump out.. I have a captive audience 8)
Quote from: Laurie on March 06, 2011, 12:34:11 PM
I knew that something was really bothering my son when he was about 8 or 9ish.. We went on a ride and he finally said, "mom I think there is something wrong with me" it was all I could do not to pull the car over.. but he went on to explain that when he took showers that he allowed himself to drift off into a world of make believe and he always became some heroic superpower. While showering in his mind he was capable of saving the world.. that also probably explained the thumping and jumping I always heard as he apparently had to physically restrain some of those villains :) I smiled and said do you want to know who I was when I was in my own little world.. Samantha from Bewitched.. how many of us tried to get that nose wiggle down :)
I had an aunt that pretended she was Whitney Houston singing "I Will Always Love You" in the shower after The Bodyguard came out. It was always an interesting morning listening to her butcher it.
Haha...your poor son! I think we all let our imaginations take over in the shower! It's a good think he asked you about it!
Having been through this, I can tell you that there is not "one" approach that works. I was raised in a house that we didn't talk about sex. It was just one of those subjects that you didn't talk about with your children then. Everything I learned, was from friends, and half of that was exaggerated and wrong. I remember my Mother saying things like, "Do not get pregnant" but that was the extent of it.
So I decided when I raised my sons, that sex was going to be a subject we covered. Any subject was open for discussion, and we had many of them. They were told that sex was not bad, but that is was wonderful when it was with someone you loved. I told them that I was not condoning them having casual sex, but that if they decided to, then this is how you protect yourself and her. It became not just about being pregnant, but about diseases and also that they could never assume a female was on the pill. They came to me with questions about everything, and I always answered them honestly. They were even told that if they decided to have sex, but was embarrassed to go buy protection, that I would go get it for them. We actually had that type of relationship.
So it was a shock when my 17 year old sat me down and told me his 16 year old GF was pregnant. I was so angry at him because we had talked about it. When all was said and done (and I had control over my emotions) I asked him honestly, "Why did you not use protection when you knew you needed too?" His answer was, "I did know it, but when the opportunity hit, I didn't have any. And our emotions just got carried away in the moment Mom. I knew better, but at that moment, all logic left me."
Let me tell you, the emotions that I had during that first month were horrible. I felt like I had failed him. I questioned my decision to discuss sex openly with them. I wondered if I had not taken this approach, and we had not discussed it, maybe it wouldn't have happened. I felt like a total failure as a parent. Another girl who's mother I knew well, got pregnant about a month later and she called me in tears. She knew I was going through it and she needed someone to talk to. She was blaming herself as well, because she was very religious and had not talked to her daughter about it outside of, "You do not have sex before marriage." So she was saying she should have talked to her more about it and how to protect herself, but thought she was doing the right thing. That conversation helped both of us because I was able to say "I did talk to him about it" and she was able to tell me she didn't. It made us both realize that neither way had worked in our situations and that they had just made bad decisions.
So true, Pooh. Adult decisions are just that, those of an adult, really no matter what the parents did or said beforehand. It's just tough b/c sex is one issue that begins somewhere in between adulthood and childhood. I think no matter what you do as a parent, as long as the support is there, you're doing A-Okay...regardless of what your child might do. My mom and I had very open discussions about sex, but I doubt she would've offered support had I become pregnant as a teen. I think that's the thing that makes or breaks a parent, not their advice.
Quote from: Tara on March 05, 2011, 07:17:40 PM
Interesting point Luise.
I do hear friends talk about having sex when not in the mood to please or be kind to dh.
And you guys knew I couldn't let this one go..... ;D
Let me see if I can put this in perspective on how I feel about this. There are times when I have had a bad day and want to talk about it with DH. He in turn may not feel good, or had a long day and just wants to chill. But he will take the time to sit down and listen to me.
So when he is in the mood and I am not? Yes, I have had sex when not really in the mood. And I have done this to be kind to DH or to please him. Because he does things for me that he is not in the mood for like above. It is a give and take in our relationship. And I have said this before and it sounds selfish, but it is true. Because I do this for him, he does things for me. When he does things for me, I am in the mood more. When I am in the mood more, he is appreciative and does more things for me. It is a cycle that we both enjoy and our relationship benefits, and we benefit as individuals. I put his needs above my own, and he puts my needs above his own, which actually ends up meeting both our needs.
Pooh, have you thought about your own love line?
I took a surprise visit up to see DH this weekend as he was finishing up a visit. Needless to say I woke up to a whole car packed for me and breakfast waiting for me when I came downstairs.
I hadn't expected him to do anything at all, but I think you just highlighted a pattern for me that I hadnt noticed. ;)
Woot woot! ;)
It's a running joke amongst our friends that they want he and I to hold sessions with them.
That's it Holli. He told me that two of the most important things I do for him are 1. Thank him when he does things, even if they are things that he should be doing because that makes him feel appreciated and needed. 2. Show him appreciation in the bedroom. He says that men don't want a thank you card, or flowers....they feel appreciated during sex. Lol.
And I told him two of the most important things he does for me are 1. Shows me appreciation OUTSIDE of the bedroom, which gets him appreciation IN the bedroom. 2. Thanks me when I do things for him that I should be doing anyway.
He called me yesterday while at work, and asked what I was doing. I told him that I had finally decided to tackle our closet and had been working on it all day to get it organized and get rid of clothes I don't wear. He came in last night with a bouquet of flowers and a thank you card. He wrote in it that he appreciated me spending my off day doing something for us and how special and beautiful I was. Psssshhhhh.....I gladly referred to his rule number 2!!!!!!
Let me see: I think I need to stay in the discussion by adding my two rules regarding sex...
#1. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
#2. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Ha Ha...that wouldn't stop my DH! ;)
That's because:
#1. You are not 85.
#2, He is not 85.
;D ;D ;D
Hee hee ;D
Faith. I also attended Catholic School elementary and high school. Of course it was run by nuns. One Nun would always tell us "Girls, your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit..Dont let anyone touch you"... boy do we all remember her words. When we get together for Class Reunions....we always repeat her words. My children attended the same schools I did because I did like the discipline and like how they taught other principles. But more than morality, I spoke to my children of the consequences they may suffer for wrong choices and how it can change their lives forever. We can teach our children...but it is still their decision when making choices.
'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Nana! Do you know what you get when you cross Holy Water and Castor Oil????
A Religious movement.......
;D ;D ;D
Pooh.. that was bad .... sooooo bad ;D
I can see that you're back to working it up to get me in trouble again.. some how, some way.
Quote from: Pooh on March 08, 2011, 12:03:42 PM
Hey Nana! Do you know what you get when you cross Holy Water and Castor Oil????
A Religious movement.......
;D ;D ;D
Bahahahaha! :o
Hey Pooh,
dh is a catholic and I just told him your joke. he LOL 8) 8)
Hee hee, glad he liked it. I have a friend who is Catholic, and I told her that joke awhile back. She laughed and then looked all serious at me and said, "This....coming from the girl who's religion includes rattle snakes." I started laughing and said, "Hey, say what you want...but we have the best bands!"
So, this sweet old guy died and went to heaven. St. Pete was showing him around and as they passed a door they looked in on everyone seemingly having a great party. As they passed...Pete said, "Those are the Methodists." They passed similar parties being held by the Baptists, Lutherans and Presbyterians. Then Pete said..."We need to tip-toe past this next door. The Catholics are in there and they think they are the only ones up here."
I get to tell that since I was once a very serious Catholic. LOL!
Ha ha ha...good one.
A Priest, a Rabbi and a Preacher went fishing. After a couple of hours they ran out of bait because they were catching so many fish. They looked across the lake and saw a bait and tackle store. So the Priest said, "I'll get some more", and he walked across the water and back. An hour later, they ran out again and the Rabbi said, "I'll get it this time", and he walked across the water and back. A couple hours later, they ran out again so the Preacher said, "My turn" and stepped in the lake and sunk.
The Priest looked at the Rabbi and said, "Guess we should have showed him where the rocks were."
(yes we call them Preachers in COG, so I can tell this one) ;D
Love it! ;D ;D ;D