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Wise Women I need all the united strength of your wisdom,

My husband and I spent two years searching for the "perfect retirement home."  As all you MIL's know, raising children involves decades of sacrifice, financially and in every way.  This was going to be our time in a home we loved, rather than the OK home we lived in while raising our kids to save money for college tuitions.  Don't get me wrong; I didn't feel deprived; my husband and I always were together on saving money and putting the kids first.  Plus, I didn't grow up in a  mansion. But it was definitely not my dream house.

We saved and saved our money for retirement.  My wonderful husband was so forward thinking, he started saving when he was 27; at the time I couldn't figure why he was doing it.  Now of course I bless him for it every day.  When we saw this house, we were thrilled---and especially that we could afford it.  It met every single item on our wish list.  What could be better?

What follows is either bad Dolores Claiborne or a B Lifetime Movie.  In fact, I've actually thought of writing this as a movie script. 

Unbeknownst to us, we moved across the street from a family of crude, angry, uneducated people. (I hasten to add our other neighbors are all wonderful people.) The house they live in is old, but there are many such houses in this area, some very historic, so one could not tell from looking at it what kind of people were inside.  We would soon find out.  The guy is basically running a car/truck repair out of the garage next to the house.  Yes, it's against zoning, but have you ever tried to prove something like this?  I got a list of everything we would have to do and believe me, not even Nancy Drew could cope with it.  Since this is a rural area, we don't have what is called a "code enforcement officer."  I don't know what good laws do if they aren't enforced.  I should add these people are renters.  They do not own the home.  It has been cared for by a very out-of-state landlord.  He is not receptive to any complaints.

The noise from the repair work was horrific, particularly when he was repairing jeeps. He would rev the truck engines to the highest possible degree of engine noise, over and over, sometimes from 5 AM to 10 PM, while hangin' out with his buddies drinking beer.  I saw a couple of creepy guys over there that made my skin crawl; you shouldn't judge by appearances, but if ever there was justification for that, this was it.  Apparently, one other neighbor thinks, they repair these vehicles, then take them out as swamp buggies, run them into the water and bogs until the things die, then put them on a flatbed and bring them back, lucky us, to the garage.  It is difficult to believe that an adult male, a father, a grown man, can call this fun, but apparently he does.  Imagine the effect on the wildlife in our swamps and bogs.  Crude, ugly crude.  Anyone who loves animals has to hate this.

Our neighbor finally contacted the realtor who was supposed to be in charge--the neighbor thought.  This rental agent, or whatever he is, called the family. As he reported it to my husband, the wife got very upset.  She claimed there was no noise.  "We don't even have a radio," she said. (Of course, it wasn't about a loud radio.)  How she can have no noise when my floor across the street is vibrating is obviously a world-class case of denial.  The agent gave up.  He gave some rigamarole about how he was no longer in charge.  Chalk this real estate company off the list; we'll certainly never use them, not after what they've inflicted on this area.

There were three young children in the house; recently, they seem to mysteriously have disappeared.  The school bus never stops anymore, and yes, I've taken to watching (snooping on?) the house and its activities.

These are the kind of ignorant, dangerous people who feel the laws don't apply to them.  Last Friday the guy started an open fire near his garage (and also the flames headed toward the neighbor's place.)  He kept dousing it with chemicals. I walked up the driveway to get my mail and saw these huge flames shooting tree-high into the air.  This was enough.  We called the fire warden; there actually is one, and he was very concerned.  The firebug had no permit.  The warden came over, talked to him, issued a permit, explained the law.  How a guy gets a permit after breaking the law---?Welcome to no-man's land. 

I've been newly named to a conservation commission in my town.  The day after the fire I went to an annual meeting state-wide.  There is a society for protecting forests and we live on next to part of  that land trust.  It's across from the neighbors from h---.  I learned these renter people are not supposed to be parking their many vehicles on that land.  (They park there to make way for the repair vehicles; they park vehicles waiting for repair.) 

I came back and reported this to my husband.  He went to take a photograph of the vehicles on the land trust; it's time to start documenting this, right?  So I was told by several sources.  No documentation, no legal action can be taken.  You can't just accuse somebody; you have to prove it.

That was Sunday morning.  The wild witch of a wife/mother, whatever she is, came out saw my husband---on our property, not hers---with the camera, and came out like banshee screaming at him.  She used the "f word" over and over.  (He was standing on our land, I emphasize, not even on the public road, and he was photographing a vehicle on protected land, not her property.)  She screamed they had been here a lot longer than we have, we're not welcome, get the f--- back in your house before I call the cops on you, get out of this town, we don't want you here.  As far as the protected land, she screamed it their garage used to be on that f--- land and we had no right to tell them they could not park there.  (We happened to know a town official had previously told them to stop doing it.)  It was absolutely awful.

As far as their garage, what I think happened was that the owner of the house decided to donate land to the trust to avoid paying taxes.  The garage that was on it was moved next to the house these abusive people now rent.

And then she did just that.  She called the police.  The next thing we knew, a police car pulled up in our driveway, bubble popping red, we were being investigated by a policeman with a notebook for taking a picture from our own property.  After about three minutes, the policeman not only relaxed but started grinning and being very friendly.  He could tell the situation, I think.  Eventually he said, "I've known the guy since he was young.  Let's just say neither one of them is ever going to run Goldman-Sachs (spelling?)"

I should be able to get over this, but I am extremely upset.  I am red with anger that this woman screamed to my husband that way.  We have never had any encounters before with police like this (I suspect she has had many.)  I wonder why we weren't telephone first to determine if any crime had been even remotely committed.  My son had just come up from the city for Sunday dinner, and he had to witness the police cruiser driving up and the policeman coming in the kitchen.  I haven't been sleeping well, something I just got over having worked through the whole situation with my absent son and DIL.  Wow am I upset---and furious---and frightened.  Not a good combination for a relaxing evening.

Have any of you had the neighbors-from------?  What did you do about it?   I have never seen anything this bad in all our years of residential living.  The woman is a screaming meemee of possible psychotic behavior.  What are these creeps going to do next?  Come over here and shoot out our windows?  Worse?  I have been sending emails to our friends, to document what happened, just in case.  I am getting very homesick for that little old house with the bad kitchen we raised our boys in, with the little old man next door who got along with everyone (and when his wife got Alzheimer's, everyone in the neighborhood watched and the day she made it out the door, she didn't get a block away) and the dynamite young, beautiful couple across the street who cared for everyone.  If this house now is Retirement Dreamland, they can have it, because I'm starting to really hate it.

We live in an area of the country that is extremely set on where you were born. At another layer of this society is the class system.  After that, it's where you went to school.   If you haven't been here for generations, you can skip being accepted---ever---by certain groups and people.  (This is America?) I went to an area meeting last night and the first thing the guest speaker did was announce, thankfully, making a huge point of it,  that he was "not from the midwest."  There is often extreme bigotry toward "outsiders," a word I never heard growing up.  In addition many of the poorer people have a deep resentment toward neighbors who have more, particularly "outsiders," but I quickly add that the geographic bigotry is by far not an attitude just of poorer people.  Frankly, if my children (the two that speak to us) did not live in this area, I would have insisted on leaving this part of the world.  Educated people who otherwise would never look down on anyone for being of a certain religion, ethnic group, or sex, feel nothing about open insults about other areas of the country and places like Canada (always considered inferior here.)  I think this is part of this feeling of my neighbors, their powerless anger that "outsiders" have moved into their town and they are going to try and get us out.  Well, she screamed it, didn't she?  Whatever miniscule bit of power they feel is embedded in being a native.  That's my gut feeling.

Where I grew up, we were always interested in any newcomer from another state, area, or country.  I never heard of this "outsiders" until I came here.  I find it pathetic.

I know that life cannot be perfect; after all, I've watched enough Made-for-Lifetime movies on Mothers & Madness Weekends to know that.  Still and all.  Still and all.  This is hateful.  Do we have to go on living with it?  Am I right, or am I paranoid, to be afraid?  Or what?

Finally, I want to add that I come from a family of farmers.  My grandfather's people homesteaded in North Dakota.  I hate snobbery in any form, and there is definitely snobbery sometimes against people who make their living off the land.  That is not the case here.   I am not a snob against rural people at all; my family were farmers.  But this---this is not something I can cope with.

Thanks for letting me vent.  As a writer, it is so helpful to me to see a situation in writing.  I would so much appreciate and value any practical advice on how to deal with this.

Kathleen

PS There is a web site called Rottenneighbors.com.  You can vent there about your neighbors.  That seems to me to pose a number of potentially serious problems, among them possible retaliation. I wasn't comfortable with that and wouldn't advise anyone to use it.  But I do understand the desperation that inspired it and keeps it going.

Oh boy. I'm so sorry you have to live like this, Kathleen. We almost had an issue with one of our new neighbors who told me his plans for his property one day. I was so glad I could tell him that the CCRs forbade the kind of activity he was eager to start and so far he hasn't tried it. I glance over when I pass in the car and plan to drop a dime if I notice anything, but who knows if the powers that be will respond?

I wish I had advice for you, but I've never dealt with anything like that. Please be careful; it sounds as though these people are thug status.

I think you and your good neighbors need to sue the owner of the property for violation of zoning regulations.  If the owner doesn't want the hassle of a lawsuit, he  might evict the renters.  If it were me, I would consult with an attorney.  If you win the case, the zoning officers will be forced to take action.

Oh, Kathleen.  That's horrible.

Unfortunately...I don't see the problem being solved unless one of you moves. 

Quote from: seasage on November 09, 2010, 03:47:50 PM
I think you and your good neighbors need to sue the owner of the property for violation of zoning regulations.  If the owner doesn't want the hassle of a lawsuit, he  might evict the renters.  If it were me, I would consult with an attorney.  If you win the case, the zoning officers will be forced to take action.

I agree with seasage.. I too just sunk a ton of money into what was  suppose to be my retirement home, or at least a good investment.  As one of the last homes built on the street, so we could see exactly the home  values around us.. my next door neighbors assured us that they were thrilled with the thought of getting neighbors. 

We noticed that they were often burning yard debris on a regular basis, this type of burning is allowed in our county..but once in the house I thought that they would take note of the fact that their smoke literally engulfed our home.. they burned every since Sunday rain or shine. My new house even with windows closed was being invaded with damaging smoke.. 1st time we spoke directly with them, they said oh ok... 2nd time we were having a picnic in the yard when they lit the fire.. oh sorry they said we didn't mean to ruin your lunch.  3rd time they saw us coming and put the fire out.. 4th time, it was yeah yeah yeah, but we have the right to burn.. 5th time I told them with a hose in my hand and the county was at their door the next day.  So I got along with my new neighbors for less then 2  months lol... There were several childish acts of retaliation on their parts which we ignored... then they said well we'll put up a fence and if your view to the pond is blocked oh well... I asked them not  to but legally they were within their rights so I ignored the fence going up.  They told the other neighbors that they were not  doing it for revenge, but I think it was a little obvious to all.. Same week the fence went up, their house was  broken into and thousands of dollars in cash and thousands in jewelry was taken.  They had the police come over  to see if I saw anything.. I said ahhh nope all I see is that fence.

You are well within your rights to protect your property value.  I would document document  and document... you also have the right to take photos, recordings or anything else that may prove your case.. As long as you don't step onto their property.  My neighbors while they were right and we are allow to burn, they were not allowed to destroy my  property in the process, they were ordered to stop.

Like you Kathleen, I'm looking around going 'what gives'.. and when you're in a mix of older historical homes you do have more of a chance to have a neighbor who simply doesn't care.  I sold my 1903 home that we  restored for 20 years in part because the city would not enforce their own rules.  Everyday I looked out and saw my property value sinking.  I used the lack of rule enforcement to effectively have my property taxes lowered.. But as I  explained to the county  appraisal district.. I'd rather pay more in taxes and know that my property was economically sound.

I would contact an attorney and speak to him about the county ordinances and bylaws.  Let us know how it goes..

Laurie dear Laurie,

Thank you so much for providing the first ray of insight and possible hope.  Your note about property values and applying for lowered taxes is absolutely great.  I never thought of it.  What's wrong in these situations is a community saying "This doesn't affect me, therefore it's your problem."  People who act out destructively should be a community problem.  That is awful about the fires.  And the retaliation.  What a way to live.

We have another very old house up the road and these people keep it perfectly.  She doesn't like the tenants either.  She told me she felt property values definitely were being lowered due to their behavior and the trashy way they keep the place.

Bless you.  Definitely will keep you posted.

So sorry you too are going through this.  It's so much stress, isn't it?  Feel free to vent with me any time,

Kathleen

Wow...when I read things like this I thank my lucky stars that my nearest neighbor is at least a quarter mile away (and she is a sweetheart).  Then again I have a livestock guardian dog that spends most of the night barking to keep the coyotes away so I'm sure people would be glad they aren't my neighbor, either. 

Kathleen, you're description of the midwest fits my rural midwestern community to a tee.  Most have been here for generations (including me) and it's next to impossible for "outsiders" to fit in.  So sad, really.  Makes for a very small world.  I love my community, but I hate the intolerance that runs rampant here....heaven forbid someone that's "different" than everyone else might move in.  Most don't stay long if they don't have some kind of roots or connections here. 

Kathleen,

Bringing in the county tax assessor to revalue your property is a GREAT idea!  Be sure to tell him/her exactly why you are asking for the revaluation, because it will have a bearing on future court cases as I will explain.  (The tax assessor may be called to court as a witness, and you want him to explain that the lower value of your property is due to to presence of an illegal business across the street.)

In order to sue in a court, you must have what is called 'standing', which means that you must be able to show that harm has been done to you, and that the court can mitigate your loss.  You will have standing if the value of your property is decreased by the business.  You might also want to check out local noise ordinances - your neighbors may be in violation of this also, although I would consider the noise secondary to your property value.

Sue the owner of the property for the loss in value of your property.  He will get those louts out really fast!  Especially since he is clearly not a member of the local mafia.  Dealing with the rental agent is clearly useless.  Besides, the rental agent has motivation to keep the tenants in place.  It will affect his bottom line, and possibly his contract with the owner, if he fails to keep the property rented.

You also need one or more observers at every meeting of your local zoning board.  You don't want the good-ole-boys to change the zoning laws on you, or to grandfather the current business.  If you and one of your neighbors can go to each zoning board meeting for awhile, state that these louts are in violation of zoning laws --- keep bringing it up ....  Yeah, I know, and I hate being a nuisance also, but sometimes it must be done.

Sorry about the trouble one has to go through to maintain a nice neighborhood.   I only know these things through experience, and my sympathies are with you.

We have checked on the noise ordinance and one does not exist; however, there is disturbing the peace and the police officer told us to contact him again if there was "unreasonable" noise at "unreasonable times,"so we will now have to document this through police action, if it continues.  Maybe that's a good thing, to have a record of what goes on over there.  We will also push for a noise ordinance to be voted in at town meeting next spring, but that won't help much now.

Threatening the landlord is a good idea.  We'll move on that; he just ignores all complaints, as he sits there collecting his rents. 

Seasage and Laurie you have been so very helpful.  Thank you again and again,

Kathleen

After thinking about your plight while taking a shower (where I do my best thinking).

1. Document the business.  Picture of vehicles, with license plates (to prove that the vehicles are not registered to the renters).  Document the time the noise starts, when it ends.
2. Go to a lawyer.  You may only have to pay him for 2 letters:  Letter #1 to the county tax assessor asking for revaluation on the basis of a business across the street.  Letter #2 may be to the property owner about your loss of property value, or to the local municipality, or whomever your attorney recommends. 

I think that the mere fact you are starting legal action will accomplish your goals.  A few well-placed letters will probably accomplish your aim.  But those letters MUST come from an attorney.

Also think carefully about what your aims are.  Do you want your neighbors to stop the illegal business, or do you want them to move?  Talk to your attorney candidly about this.  Take his advice.

Laurie, did you hire an attorney?

Seasage:  do you think it's better to hire an attorney from town, or out of town?  Will an attorney in town be part of the "outsider" thing where he may actually represent a longtime local more than us?  Or, would a local attorney have more clout and more knowledge?  What do you think?

Thanks for thinking of me during your shower-think time!

Kathleen

I would ask around town.  You want the attorney with the best reputation in the local courts, the best reputation as judged by other local attorneys.  You want that attorney who has the highest morals, etc.  (When an attorney is highly valued by the local judges, he will usually prevail in court.  And the local zoning officers, etc. will pay attention to what he says and does.)  This will probably be your attorney for all the things you might need to do in the future, so it pays to find the old "gentleman" of the courts.

Hi Kathleen
I'm very sorry to read your troubles, and I know how devestating bad neighbors can be, but you've got to calm down...that is first and foremost.

She can yell and scream at you as much as she wants, but you were on your own property...and she got upset, b/c she knows they are in the wrong.

The officer more then likely got a whole different story from her, believe me...the fact that he told you he dealt with this man before, speaks volumns...

Continue to document things, however, I wouldn't hold your breath that the neighbors will come along for the ride...but I will say this, if things get bad enough, they might.

In the end, this will all work out, but I would be very careful how focal you are about locally...come here and vent, however, try to say as little as possible for the safety of your own family.

Down south, and it sounds like you live down there, there seems to be a certain loyalty towards the "good ol' boys", meaning they stick up for each other, so be very careful.

The other gals here have also given you some good advice to chew on....so, first and foremost, try very hard to calm down...and remember, that neighbor woman only yelled at your husband, thats all.  I know it is instinct to want to be protective, however, he's a big boy and he wasn't hurt  as much as you were by her outburst, actually remember, the cop smiled.

Oh, and do something nice for the cop after this is over...not now, but when this is all over, write a letter to his Captain, telling him how good you feel this officer handled the situation, professionally and with great awareness.  This letter will be put in the officers file and go to bat for him when he is due a promotion.

Hugs and much love

Creme

For my Victorian house I did not need to hire an attorney as when we went to the appraisal district appeal, the board which is not associated with the appraisal district was very sympathetic and granted us the decreased values.  Had we not gotten that,  then we were going to be forced to hire an attorney.

My current neighbors thought we did hire an attorney, so they really towed the line when putting up the fence, even had their lot resurveyed because I told the association that I witnessed the husband messing with the property stakes.  After the county became involved with the "nuisance burning" my neighbors have ceased to have any more fires.  I would think that a protest of nuisance noise might have some bearing as well.

Bad neighbors are a major pain in the rump (Luise again).. but thank your lucky stars that they are renters. 

Here is the Victorian house.. broke my heart to sell this but you know an investment is an investment

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4036/5164855969_d7861c54d6_z.jpg)

Hey! That's my Granny's house!  :D

Lucky for me, my county doesn't even have building codes.

Laurie,

Your Victorian was absolutely gorgeous.  What was the issue that caused you to sell?  Are you considering selling your current home? 

I am so sorry you felt forced to sell a home as beautiful as this.

We're working today on going over our documents.  We will file an email I sent to the rental agent with the local police department as followup to their visit.  I kept careful notes on the noise all through October.  Starting to ask around for lawyers.  Have to get some kind of camera that isn't so obvious when taking photos.

More later,

Kathleen

I think the biggest deciding issue that pushed us  to sell the house was and is,age.   My dh hand painted that house, that and all the other renovations became grueling.  Additionally the devaluation of our home due to surrounding neighbors and the work suddenly became frugal. Combine that with HGTV and all the new and wonderful ideas that they show (not so much any more) the choice was heartbreaking but not hard to make.  Our biggest regret is the fact that my daughter wanted to get married on the porch.

I can post another photo of my house from down the street.  It's the photo that was blown up for the appraisal hearing.. Honestly, it's the slums then our house.. pity how some older neighborhoods are being destroyed and the city is letting their precious gems die. 

Hello, your story is so sad.  I live in the south and I know first hard how hard it is to be accepted.  We have had many, many problems with neighbors when we first moved south 20 years ago.  Now, we live in a subdivision that has rules.  Also, the county has matured to protect the rights of others.  We also called the fire marshall when we had this guy burning plastic barrels on the front lawn and poisoning all of us.  Another neighbor disabled his barking dog by cutting his vocal cords.  We reported to the human society.  They arrived immediately.  The poor animal was taken away. 

I feel you are in your right to stand up for yourself, protect your property and go after that owner of the home. Another idea is to get to know the other neighbors to sign a petition.  This has helped in our neighborhood when someone steps over the line with no regard for his fellow human being. 

Looking forward to hearing of your progress..... 8)

dablacks,

We lived for a short time in a vacation condo while we searched for this house, and believe me, this was like Laurie's town where the rules were completely ignored.  It wasn't quite as bad as what's going on across the street now, but it was very bad and there were more people breaking the rules than not.  Requests the the rules be enforced were met with contempt.  I am so glad your subdivision has rules and apparently enforces them.

I don't live in the South; in fact, when going there a couple of years ago, it seemed wildly friendly compared to where I live.  I did live in Nashville the first year we were married and found it far easier to make friends there than here.  But I am sure there are pockets everywhere of geographic bigotry and "outsidism."  (That's my term for the cultural ideal that no one is accepted unless they have lived there for---how long?  Here it is several generations.  Even then, if you didn't come from England four hundred years ago, you're very suspect.)

Laurie, I get it: your neighborhood just got so bad.  People probably trashed their yards or whatever.  This is a typical example of the "fight flight" syndrome we've also been discussing.  You either had to stay and keep battling it (despite your tax abatement, I am sure it was not easy) or leave. 
You chose to leave. 

Unfortunately, that thought also is entering my mind.

Kathleen

I was just asked by the home owners association if I would consider helping with the architectural deed restriction committee.. I agreed as it would be hard not to after the fire and fence complaining I did.  Since I'm so community oriented (their words not mine) I was asked if I would host a meet and greet at my home.. Dec 4th... I agreed and look forward to it.. but I thought it was just for the new residents.. I didn't realize that the entire subdivision was invited.

I need help Kathleen.. bring your bottle of vinegar and head over here asap.  I think there will be a couple of women helping with finger food.. I sure hope so I can't afford to feed an entire subdivision I can barely keep up with my daughters boyfriend.. yeah he's the 4 hamburger guy.

Don't give up on your home yet.. I know you just got moved in... but in the end.. I learned that a house is only a house if you can't make it your home.

Hi!!  I am sorry that your dream home is turning into a nightmare.  However, do not give in or up!!! Just because you are new in the neighborhood--does not mean you can be controlled.  They are rubbish for neighbors, unfortunately some people just do not care and that is the story with them.
i would go around to all the other neighbors whom live on your block and get signatures--power of numbers always works--this may take a while, however I am certain that this will be resolved and in your favor as well.
Do you have a court house in your area???  Go to the court house, see if you can sign some complaints against them, ask your neighbors to sign as well...The clerk of deeds, who ownes that house, write to the owner, show pictures, etc...If the owner does not want to become involved nor take action--simply lay it on the line--"Hey if something happens to either myself or my Husband due to the rubbish that you have rented to, I will hold you personally responsible!!!"  Sometimes, that may wake them up...
Take the owner to small claims court--Negligance of property...there has just got to be something.
Dont give up...Blessings and HUGS...

Quote from: kathleen on November 11, 2010, 01:57:35 PM
dablacks,

We lived for a short time in a vacation condo while we searched for this house, and believe me, this was like Laurie's town where the rules were completely ignored.  It wasn't quite as bad as what's going on across the street now, but it was very bad and there were more people breaking the rules than not.  Requests the the rules be enforced were met with contempt.  I am so glad your subdivision has rules and apparently enforces them.

I don't live in the South; in fact, when going there a couple of years ago, it seemed wildly friendly compared to where I live.  I did live in Nashville the first year we were married and found it far easier to make friends there than here.  But I am sure there are pockets everywhere of geographic bigotry and "outsidism."  (That's my term for the cultural ideal that no one is accepted unless they have lived there for---how long?  Here it is several generations.  Even then, if you didn't come from England four hundred years ago, you're very suspect.)

Laurie, I get it: your neighborhood just got so bad.  People probably trashed their yards or whatever.  This is a typical example of the "fight flight" syndrome we've also been discussing.  You either had to stay and keep battling it (despite your tax abatement, I am sure it was not easy) or leave. 
You chose to leave. 

Unfortunately, that thought also is entering my mind.

Kathleen

Here's an update on this situation:

My neighbor spoke sharply to the offenders, and to date they have stopped the noise. I was very happy for a while.  But  I expect them to pick it up again this spring.

Last week we learned, however, that this stupid community we lived in feels it cannot stop an excavating company that is going in one mile from our house.  We bought in a pristine area assured that nothing like this could happen as we are otherwise surrounded by conservation land.  There will be one truck every 12 minutes leaving from the site filled with gravel and sand, and many of these trucks will be 18-wheelers. That doesn't count the noise from the excavations, the damage to wildlife, and the destruction of the hillside.  I sat through two hours of the worst lies I have ever heard the other night from the company's sleazy lawyer and more-sleazy "road consultant."

The people in this town do not know what they have, and they have no idea what is coming if they allow this to go through.  Of course, it's all about the taxes---stupid and short-sighted, because if property values drop because of this industrial park, so will tax income.  This is going to make my noise problem with my neighbors look like jelly donuts.

So much for our retirement "dream" home.  I don't know how these people sleep at night.

In total disgust,

Kathleen

Hey there Kathleen... I think I would be folding and moving on if it's possible.... We don't get many chances for a dream retirement home, so I would be looking at plan B.  The destruction to the land alone will kill your property value, and yes the constant traffic could possibly effect a future sale.   Approximately how many home owners do you have in your area and I can't remember do you have a HOA or a POA?  I would sure be firing off letters, especially since you do write amazing well, to your local government and state officials.  A quick letter campaign may be the only thing to put a temporary hold on the project.  I take it that none of the nature or wildlife reserve will be affected.  I wonder if they've done an environmental study.  In the meantime I'm really sorry this has happened.. it's heartbreaking to put money, time, and your heart into a home that you thought would be the perfect home.... please keep us posted

We had a similar issue in our area a few years back, complete with 24/7 rock crushing machines, 18 wheelers, asphalt plant, etc. Although we're fairly rural and not known for being a hotbed of environmental or any other kind of action, a group was formed that fought back! So far we've kept that project at bay. I am so sorry you're in the midst of this nightmare and hope it can be resolved to your satisfaction, whatever constitutes the very best outcome for you.

What a sad, sad story. It really bothers me to miss threads. If any of you notice that I am not in on one, would you send me a P.M.? I can't figure why I am "mostly" notified of new subjects but not always.

I don't know much about the legalities but I do know that sometimes we need to know, "When to hold 'em and when to fold 'em." I'm so sorry, Kathleen. A life-dream. It just breaks my heart. Sending love...

Laurie, Pen and Luise,

Thanks for your responses.  Yes, Laurie, wildlife in the area will be decimated from the noise.

The worst aspect of this is citizen inaction.  I serve on the Conservation Commission and they are acting as if nothing is happening.  I requested that we spend the bulk of time at tomorrow's meeting on this issue and didn't even get the courtesy of a reply; instead, the agenda was sent and almost the entire meeting will be devoted to what I call "fancy hats," issues that make people feel important and environmental while the horse is running out of the barn and they do nothing.

You must live in a good community, Pen, if people stopped a project like this.  Were you personally involved?  Can you send details of how this was done?

A strong excavating lobby and a weak citizenry resulted in a law that said towns must accept excavating projects.  I wonder if this isn't un-Constitutional.  It doesn't sound right to me.

It's not going to be easy at our age to just pack everything up and move again.  Plus I am terrified at what will happen to the value of my house.  I don't know if we can absorb the financial loss.

Very depressed,

Kathleen

Kathleen,

I don't know how one fights against the money and power wielded by industrial development.  Especially when the neighbors don't seem to care.  Is your street paved?  I certainly hope so because those big trucks are going to throw up a lot of dirt along with the noise! 

We are also trying to fight industrial development in the neighborhood.  We sit atop the Marcellus Shale, and the fights are for our health, the safety of the water that comes out of our wells, as well as the look of the neighborhood.  If the big gas developers win - and I expect them to in spite of our activism - our neighborhood will look like the pictures in this trailer for the movie Gasland: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZe1AeH0Qz8.  We live a mile from a major gas pipeline, which means the gas companies would love to get in here because connecting from a gas well into the trans-continental pipeline would be so easy and cheap, so our neighborhood will be one of the first to go down that awful road.  The choicest field for development is just a few hundred yards from my house.  The gas company survey trucks have already been in there, and I am pretty sure that some seismic testing has already been performed.  Part of our fight is with neighbors who are big landowners - who have already collected fistfuls of cash from leasing their land and stand to collect wheelbarrow loads of cash when the drilling happens.  Small landowners like us have the most to lose.  The big landowners will take their cash and move to Florida.  We small homeowners will be stuck with polluted wells and homes we cannot sell.  We live in a semi-rural area that will never get city water, due to the estimated $10 million to bring it to our neighborhood.

At least we have quite a few neighbors who are willing to stand up to the town board and try to get something done.  I can't imagine what it would be like to be alone in this fight.

One of our tactics is to try to get more of the local land designated as conservation easements.  I am wondering, who are the owners of the conservation land near you?   Don't they care?  Or will they be making lots of money from the rock-crushing?

Preparing myself to be one of those lay-down-in-the-road activists,
seasage

Seasage,

Thank you for sharing that.  I appreciate it.

Isn't there some way to make these companies pay for lost property damage?  This seems totally un-American to me.  If I walked into a convenience store and stole some candy, the police could be called, but corporations can walk off with decimating an entire neighborhood or more, and nothing happens?

The company in our case has said they will not drive the trucks on our road.  So, they are going to drive them on a highway that goes directly into the next town and right past an elementary school.  So, this is OK with our citizens?  Seems to be they care nothing for their neighbors, either.

We need some national activisim on behalf of all citizens who are facing these very serious issues.

I hope you will keep me updated,

Kathleen

Quote from: kathleen on January 09, 2011, 08:50:19 AM

Isn't there some way to make these companies pay for lost property damage?  This seems totally un-American to me.  If I walked into a convenience store and stole some candy, the police could be called, but corporations can walk off with decimating an entire neighborhood or more, and nothing happens?

That's one of the Catch-22s.  You have to prove there is damage and that the corporation caused it.  In the thousands of documented cases of water contamination from gas drilling, almost no one has been able to prove anything.  Citizens are left with worthless homes, water they can't drink, pets and farm animals that are dying, many horrendous cases of cancer, and a landscape filled with gas wells.  The gas companies have big pockets and big law firms on retention. 

I honestly don't know what we citizens can do.  All our state and national legislators, even most of our governors, are in the pockets of big business.  Corporations rule the world.  And I don't know where to run and hide, or where to retire.

seasage

I think you are right, Seasage, and there are places corporate decay won't reach in your life time. I'd start researching and move! This nightmare is not retirement...it's just that, a nightmare. I'm so deeply sorry. Sending love...

Here is the update on the industrial park moving into my neighborhood:

I received a communication this morning informing me that the real reason to allow it is to keep families out, that there could be "40+ children or more" if a housing development came in.  Therefore we should allow toxic noise, diesel air pollution, decimation of wildlife, and destruction of a mountainside instead.  We won't have to spend money on our school system.

My thoughts and emotions on this right now are far too hot to write.  I must wait until I calm down before saying more. 

Except, I can't resist, isn't the writer so lucky that people did not take this tact when she was young and being raised in a family?  Now, she wishes to keep others from that experience in this community. 

Kathleen

Terrible, Kathleen. (She's probably 10th generation. As I have said, I would sell and run for the hills.

I am so touched by all of this. I think for some of us the home (as in house) becomes not only a symbol of who we are and what we are about but it can also become an extension of that...the container of it. I have examples of that in my own life that I won't cloud this thread with but I can feel the intense energy here.

Oh Kathleen, what a horrible situation.

Isn't it amazing how our memories and histories become so tied to an object or place?  I had a wonderful childhood, spending countless hours of my youth at my grandparents.  I drove by their old house for the first time in 20 years right before Christmas, to show my DH and we had to turn around and go back, because we passed it.  When I finally located it, it was so changed and nothing was the same.  They had taken great pride in that house and yard.  They were poor, but everything was always neat.  Now it was run down, siding falling off, yard grown up...etc.  I cried as we sat staring at it, devastated while my DH comforted me.

It took me a few minutes to realize that it didn't matter about the house.  My memories and stories are in my head and they will remain with me always.  I can close my eyes and still see how the house was, so it doesn't matter what it is now.  It is now just a house, in my memories....it will always be a home.

So Kathleen, although devastating and painful, I am with Luise.  I would move.  You can be totally right, but politics in a town are very hard to defeat.

Quote from: kathleen on January 10, 2011, 01:26:31 PM
Here is the update on the industrial park moving into my neighborhood:

I received a communication this morning informing me that the real reason to allow it is to keep families out, that there could be "40+ children or more" if a housing development came in.  Therefore we should allow toxic noise, diesel air pollution, decimation of wildlife, and destruction of a mountainside instead.  We won't have to spend money on our school system.

My thoughts and emotions on this right now are far too hot to write.  I must wait until I calm down before saying more. 

Except, I can't resist, isn't the writer so lucky that people did not take this tact when she was young and being raised in a family?  Now, she wishes to keep others from that experience in this community. 

Kathleen

I am aghast that anyone would even voice an idea such as that.  I simply can't imagine what goes on in someone's head when s/he can state with a straight face that they are saving your community from children and the expenses that go with such an awful pestilence.  Where do we derive our morality in this country? 

I love to watch BookTV on CSPAN on the weekends, and this past Saturday I found a very special author who addresses the problem of public perception and public morality.  http://www.booktv.org/Watch/11851/The+Honor+Code+How+Moral+Revolutions+Happen.aspx
Appiah, who is a Princeton professor, talked about the ways in which society decided that slavery was wrong, that female genital mutilation can be stopped, and other moral revolutions.  It made me start to think about the moral revolutions we need in our own country and to ask myself what (if anything) I can do to contribute to the cause.  I began to realize that writing/preaching/complaining about the environmental cost, etc. was not the whole answer - if indeed it ever was any answer at all.  I began to see that we need to always discuss the morality of our actions in order to change how society thinks.

And with that in mind, today my own response to this reporter would focus on the morality of children vs. a gravel pit. 

   

I have been wonderfully amazed by the eloquence of your responses, and your caring.  I have been touched by your outrage and it has emboldened me to continue without desperation or fear.  I am so grateful.  It has focused me away from my nearly-terminal rage at my situation, to the caring others can give.

Luise, I was really taken by your observation of the intensity of this subject and the responses.  It made me glad.

I have a gift:  I'm a newspaper writer with considerable experience as a reporter.  A reporter's talent has to be to "smoke people out."  So, I was able to get this municipal official to put her discriminatory view against children in writing.  I then contacted the next highest up town official and informed him, without using names.  He sent back a snappish reply full of fear:  the town "insurers" were glad this was not an official "vote" of the commission on which I serve but any anti-child position of any "municipal official" is "reprehensible."  Fine.  They are on the run!  They are fearful!  And they should be.  Because a lot can happen with media coverage and I've already formulated a possible plan for that.

Here's a little portrait of me which helps in my reporting work: I am diminutive, with a good smile people trust, and especially a very soft "good telephone voice," one friend said; my cousin who has known me since we were two months old says it is a "sexy" voice on the phone.  I have fooled many a tough lawyer into giving away the farm with my little voice which, by the way, still makes me sound fifteen.  It's also a gift.  I have "smoked out" so many fakes that I have won writing awards for it.

My husband and I have won two major, similar battles in the past, one which cost a town $700,000 in a tax judgment for a plaintiff we supported who had been severely discriminated against.

So right now, we've opted to fight.  We may very well, as we did before, opt in the end to leave.  But not without a fight.

I have questioned myself carefully as to whether or not I'm up for yet another fight "at my age."  Insomnia won:  I won't sleep anyway, so why not engage?  I can quit anytime.

As I write, my husband is at a board meeting expressing the formidable results of his three days of solid research, point by point.  We shall see.
Perhaps the lid will come off of all of this.

I understand, Laurie, your leaving your home; you shouldn't have had to; but I know why you did.  We took that option once and didn't regret it in any way.  This is not my home in the deep sense of your attachment, so in that sense I have already left it.  I can leave it anytime, that is, if I can now sell with a gravel pit in my back yard.  But to not speak out against such injustice is wrong.  We may go down, but we will go down fighting.  I am still so sorry you had to leave your home and that this happened to you; you have written about this before.  But, I get it.

Luise, you live in the Pacific Northwest.  Portland, Oregon, has the toughest noise and other socially conscious laws in the nation.  Seattle and environs are only a dream where I live; I have been in your area and it is pure love.  It is gorgeous and wonderful, but my children live here.  Can I really leave them to go so far away?  I don't know.  I want to be near them, just as I wanted to be near my family of origin but was thrust out by my husband's career decisions.  I would love to live where you live, and I understand so much your feelings about my situation based on your geography.  But the some of the country isn't like your heavenly place.  It's hard and mean and not congenial to change.  It's inbred with fear of "outsiders" and retribution of them for trying to make change.  I can live with that. But I'd rather not.

Again, I am astonished at the intensity and wonder of your replies.  Seasage, I have checked out your link and it's great and will watch in entirety; I, too, am a great fan of BookTV.  I so much appreciate your consideration of morals in this society and the approach this author from Princeton has taken.  I could not agree more.  What have you decided to do about your home near the gas threat?  I thank you for your notes and for that link.  It's positively inspiring.  I read your post out loud to my husband, particularly the last, great quote:  what's in a reporter's eye, a gravel pit. vs. children?  I'm telling you, we could go to town with that.  You are so, absolutely, right on.  I love, revere, admire, the entire idea of morality restored in this country, specifically and generally.  Thank you for your heartfelt commentary.

So, like the aftermath of any body-blow news, it's getting a little better. 

We really do become a family here.  It's amazing, since we have never met.  I got a letter today from my pen pal in England; I was increasingly anxious about her husband going thru surgery, as uncharacteristically I had not heard from her in several weeks; I felt so much relief to know he go thru it OK.  I have never met her!  Yet we are sisters---as you begin to feel to me.

Always, thank you, back soon,

Kathleen

You cry, we cry.  You laugh, we laugh.  You fight politics, we scream the WWU war cry!   YA YA YA YA YA YA YA YA YOOOO!!

That's how we roll....   ;D

I know that every area and state is different, but here, if there is water involved, the Army Corp of Engineers have to do studies on flood issues and such before changes can be made.  They might have something to help you?  Don't know if that is true in your area, just throwing it out there.

Thanks Pooh.  A long day today of researching this from all sides.  Remember when we talked about fight-flight, and you understood exactly what it was?  I'm in it. Either stay and try and defeat this, or leave.  Doesn't leave much room for serenity either way.

We already checked on the Corps of Engineers and it's our understanding they only do this for federal properties but that could be wrong.  Do you have info to the contrary?  This is a piece of private property being sold to a private corporation (it's impossible to get info on them.  They are not publicly held.)

Love ya,

Kathleen

Remember Kathleen, it only takes one person to make a difference.....be that person.

Thank you, Faith, yes, I'm working on it.  Sent a long letter to the head of selectmen and head of planning board, researching other options.  By now you know I've got a little talent with writing and I zeroed in on a scenario from another town destroyed by this kind of action, including figures I got of actual drops in property values (one home started at $250,000 and after the trucks rolled, five years later was sold for $90,000)

By now I've gone through the stages:  the first hard flashes of rage, an incredible week of insomnia and heart palpitations, the bargaining stage---trying to figure what we could do to stop it---and now am in a depression.  At least the anger is gone and in total exhaustion I slept finally last night.

I have learned this is, as Seasage knows, going on all over the country.  Here is the corporate modus operandi:

Select a town without deep pockets for your industrial wasteland.  Plan carefully behind closed doors.  Try to bull through your proposal around Christmas, when people are preoccupied or away.  Hire a slick lawyer who doesn't care about spending the rest of eternity in hell for planned, blatant lies and the destruction of a community.  Bring along a sexpot female lawyer to distract the men at the hearing.  (In our case, the blonde just sat there and never said a word.  I did, however, stare at her for a long time and finally when she met my gaze, she looked ashamed.  It told me a lot.)

You need to be a corporate con artist/sociopath who cares nothing for children, the elderly, wildlife, or the values your country supposedly is built on.  You probably already have many millions from your rape of other communities but of course that is of not the slightest concern.  After all, your dumb fat son is sitting next to you in the hearing, yawning as the townspeople express their outrage and fear, and since he is not the brightest bulb on the tree (all he wants is to get home and watch sports tv) he will have to be provided for.  You are hideously bald, beer-bellied, and cadaverous yourself, so you probably figure it's your right to get back at the world for that and for producing your lump of lard son who probably doesn't do anything but play video games.

Indicate in every possible way that if your proposal is not accepted and permits not granted, you will use your pathologically thin-nosed, horse-faced lawyer to litigate and wipe out the town coffers.  This, as you know, adds more fuel to the bonfire of fear now burning throughout the town.  Secrecy will permeate and citizens will look at each other with suspicion, as you know.  This also inspires the very worst emotions in people and will help to fragment public opinion.

You do this because you do not believe in God, the American Constitution, any rights of others, or the future of this country.  It's all about you and now and what you can get from other people's hard work and honest sacrifice to earn what they have.

I spoke to a lady lives directly near the coming industrial park (I call it that snappishly, they don't like that claiming a gravel pit is not that at all.  Ha.)  She was a single mom like many on our list; she is 60, has no retirement, and depends on her job until she dies.  She already has considerable noise from the road and told me she probably will not be able to withstand the constant truck noise to come.  She said there already is a home near the site in foreclosure and hers will be "worth nothing" if this happens.  What in this world has our country come to, to repeatedly allow this scenario to occur?

That's pretty much what is happening here.  It's a cautionary tale.

I'll keep you posted, thanks again to all for the great support. 

Kathleen

OK, Kathleen,  being you are a writer, would it be possible for you to write an article regarding this matter in your (town/city) newspaper????   Write a "long" article, take it in to your local news paper office and ask them to print it.....Freedom of speech, or have we lost that too????

Just throwing this out into the cosmos~~maybe and maybe not.....but it sure is worth the try.

Kathleen
I cannot tell you in words, how much I admire your stamina and successes...you go girl...

It is very very diffcult to go thru something like this....however, your do diligence will pay off, I'm certain of that...

Best of luck girl...

and yes, you cry, we cry, Pooh is absolutely right...

remember, your an amazing woman!!!!!

Sorry Kathleen, somehow I missed your question.  I know they are federally ran, but I thought they helped everyone.  I could be totally wrong as I was working for 911 when we used them several years ago.  Their website shows public help on some issues. 

Kathleen, I've given up on PMing you, so I'll give you the info from my neighbor here:

1. Establish when the rock company got a permit to operate in your area. If you bought your property after that date you may be eligible for a refund since no one disclosed that information to you.

2. Establish lack of need for the product. That was the biggest help in our fight; our part of the state was facing a building slow-down and really didn't need the gravel that would be produced.

3. Environmental/historical impact reports are critical! Get as many professors to analyze and write up their findings.

4. Keep bugging the powers that be by mail, editorials, letters to the editor, and most importantly a presence at all governmental meetings regarding the project. They must let you know when these meetings are although they will try to do as much as possible behind closed doors. Don't let them.

5. Attend meetings of every community organization you can from Girl Scouts to PTA to Kiwanis Club and so forth. Present your concerns with a focus on what will affect your audience the most so you can gather signatures on petitions and bodies to help you fight. We focused on highway safety being jeordized due to increased truck traffic on our highways and through our little towns. Once the county commissioner understood exactly how much big truck traffic there would be she fought with us and helped turn things around.

6. It took 6 years to close down our project; they got sick of fighting us. The company (a huge world wide corporation with a hooty bird as its logo) still owns the land so we may have to fight again, but for now it's all good.

Quote from: Pen on January 18, 2011, 08:18:11 AM
2. Establish lack of need for the product. That was the biggest help in our fight; our part of the state was facing a building slow-down and really didn't need the gravel that would be produced.

Kathleen and Pen,

I was thinking about your problem, Kathleen, and item 2 of your answer, Pen, while watching a TV interview of Eliot Spitzer.  Spitzer was asked about the recent arrests of over 100 members of the mob.  After saying that this was at least the 18th obituary of the mob he had heard in his career, and that the statement the FBI had driven "a stake through the heart of organized crime" just wasn't true, Spitzer went on to discuss how the mob operates and where they will turn up again and again.  Twice he said the mob controls concrete.  The way they operate is to "extract a price for people to do business".  They "go after cement, go after trucking". 

Thus the importance of item 2. in Pen's list.  Is this gravel pit necessary?  Aren't there plenty of operating sand and gravel pits in the area?  Is this one really necessary, or is it possible that it is being started up by someone who is into organized crime?

The interview may be seen on youtube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwSjIut6RL0

That's actually kind of funny - organized crime being in the gravel business, gravel being a component of the cement mobsters supposedly use to make "shoes" for their victims, LOL. Way to keep it all in-house!

Quote from: Pen on January 21, 2011, 09:00:23 AM
That's actually kind of funny - organized crime being in the gravel business, gravel being a component of the cement mobsters supposedly use to make "shoes" for their victims, LOL. Way to keep it all in-house!

Pen.. it's a sick mind that makes that connection :) good job

Well, it starts with a good visual. Thanks, Seasage!

Here's an update on what's happening with the gravel pit proposed for our town.

Pen, thank you again for the action steps.  I've distributed them now to members of several boards, of course with nothing to identify you.  I cut and pasted just the body into Word and did it that way.  They will never find you, Pen.  The corporate thugs can never throw you into their pit.

There is now news that a second gravel company has just filed with the state.  If the first one is approved by the zoning board, they have to then approve the second one.  You can't say yes to one and no to the second. 

A citizens group formed and met last week and will meet again on Tuesday.  It was very well attended.  The main purpose was to get the word out and get people writing statements and submitting them and coming to the big zoning board hearing either to read them or have them read by the town secretary.  The more the better.

Two of those citizens near the site hired a lawyer who will present for them at the hearing.

The chairwoman of the Conservation board verbally resigned at the last meeting.  Since she has provided no leadership for years and has been responsible through inaction for this horror, it's right that she leaves.  However, it's in the middle of the crisis, leaving us without a leader, and at the same time she has failed to formally submit her resignation to the correct board, very purposefully, I think.  To sum up, what a jerk.  I believe she joined in the first place to "network" for her little "marketing" company in town.  I asked her once about wetlands and she had no idea what I was talking about. (!!!!)  She did not even come to the first, very important zoning board hearing on the pit.  Just never showed up!

Two of the most powerful men in town, one heads the most powerful board, are proposing me as the new chair of the Con board this Monday night.  I was stunned to get the first phone call, also astonished at the strength with which they want me.  I had no idea I was even being considered.  I've now had this invitation in writing in an email from the second most powerful man in town.  Amazing. 

I believe the outgoing chairwoman has not resigned in writing yet because she is trying to get as her replacement the most tight-lipped, mean-spirited woman in town, the same woman that sent me that email stating a housing development with kids would be a "disaster" compared to the pit.  (I found out she and her ilk erroneously believe they will get tax money from the pit, which is a joke.  The total taxes the company would pay is a few thousand a year).  Mean Spirited also has no people skills or presentation skills, so in every way she will be a worse continuation of what's gone before.  If she becomes chair of the Con board, I will probably leave; I have nothing in common with her in any way and would in essence be supporting issues I find immoral.

If I don't get the chair, it will be because a) I am very new in town, a possibly valid reason, and b) I am the proverbial "outsider" from the Midwest,
a part of the country akin to the third world in the minds of many ignoramuses here, a bigoted and wrong reason to reject me.  It will be interesting to see.

An emergency Con board meeting has been called, and a second citizens group meets, both this week.  The big hearing is Feb. 2. 

I am dreaming that Joan Baez will show up with her guitar and start singing songs about gangsters restoring little homes to poor people.

We're giving it a good fight, and thanks for all your support.  It has been extremely helpful!

Stay tuned,

Kathleen

No worries, K. I'm glad you could use my input. I'll pass your post along to my neighbor sans identifying info, if you don't mind. She'll be glad the fight continues elsewhere and that all of her hard work is helping.

Pen, please do pass it on. 

I got an email from the outgoing Con chairman last night that now she, too, is nominating me for chair.  I expect now to get it; my husband said she saw which way the wind was blowing and went with it, although originally she wanted the other woman.  One of my goals will be to take this outward and make more connections with other towns and groups sharing our problems.  So I'd be happy if my comments can help,

Kathleen

Today a chairwoman, tomorrow a governor?  :D

Keep me posted on everything. Good luck.

Tonight's the meeting.  Let me hear that MIL Unite fight song!  Rah rah zis boom bah, fimalacky fimalacky foom ah hah!

Kathleen

Maree
Mari
Ipple
Sipple
Si
Wiggle
Waggle
Diggle
Dagle
We're from Royal Oak High!

Oops!

Sending out good Juju, even if slightly obsolete (circa 1944)  ;D

"We are Wise Women, mighty mighty Wise Women. Everywhere we go-o, people want to know-o...who we are...so we tell 'em..."

Good luck, K!!

Yes! You go, Kathleen!

Oh I have no doubt Kathleen can hand it to them!  But my concern is she is dealing with stupid people and she is logical.  Stupid people usually don't understand logic!

But I am with you too Kathleen!!!  Rip em' a new one!

Thanks, Pen, Luise and Pooh.

Little do they know I have the MIL Superbowl all-star winners standing behind me.

Pooh, send Margaritas.  I will need about five when it's over.

Kathleen

Don't forget Laurie...she is "The Fiercest of Them All!"  >:( >:( >:(

5 Margaritas on there way including margarita salt (was going to send margarita rim sugar too but remembered the healthy post sugar thingy).  Actually, guess you should forgo the salt too!

Rah Rah Ree...kick em in the knee...Rah Rah Rass...kick em in the.....other knee!

Quote from: kathleen on January 24, 2011, 08:00:42 AM
Tonight's the meeting.  Let me hear that MIL Unite fight song!  Rah rah zis boom bah, fimalacky fimalacky foom ah hah!

How did it go, Kathleen? 

Rose and all,

I didn't update you sooner because at the Monday night meeting to discuss the excavation pit, the chairman's election was simply put off.  It was on the agenda but the meeting ran late, as always with this chaotic unfocused group, and everyone simply left.

I had taken on an assignment to write a draft of the statement of the Conservation board to deliver to the all-important hearing next Wednesday, where the zoning board will decide on the pit permit (or not.)  A writer's nightmare is to write by group and that's what's happening now.

Another woman and I agreed to start the draft together.  She and a third woman wanted to be co-chairs of the board, so you can imagine what happened.   They both did everything possible to undermine me.  The third woman was brought in and started re-writing, producing ghastly and unreadable copy.  I sent a clear rewrite in good form.  Instead of using it, they submitted their draft to a special meeting last night.  My draft didn't even include much of what they had since they sent it to me too late to use it.

All that is a long-winded description of just some of the antics and games that have gone on with this board.   At a meeting a few weeks ago, the town secretary, an irascible no-nonsense man, raged that the "Conservation board has done nothing, nothing, to prevent the pit."  The board could have required a large bond and taken other actions to prevent this nightmare but didn't.  You can see why.  People are far more vested in games and ego trips than in getting to the point of doing something good.

So last night before the special meeting I sat and wrote the pseudo-chairman an email.  I said that roles were getting confused and clarity was needed.  I had decided if they didn't hold the election for chairman last night, I would see them through the zoning hearing and leave.  I was so upset by the time I wrote I'm sure my blood pressure was sky high.  He took it seriously, they had the election, the two cats didn't want me but had no choice as it was felt we needed a chairman before the big hearing.  So I got elected to the probably thankless job.  Today I received yet another statement draft from the woman who wrested control, eliminating all I had written.  So now it is getting nasty.

I can never understand why people cannot stick to the bottom line of a project or issue, particularly when it is this important.

I didn't sleep well and am exhausted.

And angry at the folly of some human beings, who will risk an entire town for a little bit of ego.  Are they that pathetic in their own lives that all they can do is scrap for a tiny bit of negative recognition? 

Kathleen

Hi Kathleen.....OK~~~Stay Strong and focused the fight is on.....Do Not focus on the "scrap & crap" for of course they are going to throw that at you...remember you are the new kid in town and people usually do not take to highly with new people changeing things, but that is just to bad for you are doing what is RIGHT.....Do NOT drown in their negativity and stupidity for that is what they want.....BUT you know better and that is what makes the difference....

Stay focused on what is right...you can turn this all around and make those 2 women cats look stupid.  People, will, unfortunately do what ever it takes to get a scrap of recognition no matter how negative it is...BUT you know better and have caught on to it, so let them know.....You have got the tools which is knowledge, now use it....sharpen your claws and gooooo girl.   Negativity does NOT win Kathleen remember that.......Get your 3 cents worth out there and show'em what your made out of................YOU go Kathleen.....WAR CRY...... ;D

Sending Positive Vibes your way.....Faith

Good grief, Kathleen!  You are a WW with a lot of spunk, just don't allow them to wear you down to the point of getting sick.  Your health takes first priority... 

Hugs,
Rose

Faith and Rose,

Needed your wise words today like a desert needs water.  Thank you.

It's always especially disheartening when women gang up on another.  There was a famous article from MS. mag's early days called "Trashing."  It perfectly outlined this kind of ganging-up and trying to destroy another "sister."  (Ha.  We are past those days of using that word.)  I wish I still had it.  I had a job once where this happened.  Four women in lesser positions (I was running the organization) ganged up, first on my predecessor---which I didn't know when I took the job---then on me.  My predecessor ended up having a nervous breakdown, unable to work again for months.  I wasn't that bad but did have to leave and was jobless, so I went to graduate school to try to understand it and to make sure it wouldn't happen again.

Women can be the best (here) or the worst (my board.)  We really have not learned to work together in any professional or similar setting, in too many cases.

Loved your replies,

Kathleen

Oh my gosh.  I just looked up "Trashing MS Magazine article" and it immediately came up.  Apparently it was the most commented-on article to date (1976) when it was published.

In my next Reply I will send the URL so you can read the entire article.  I think every one of us should read it, as some of the wisdom in this article applies to the behavior of some of our DIL's.

Kathleen

Here is the definition of the term from the article: Strong words:


"What is "trashing," this colloquial term that expresses so much, yet explains so little? It is not disagreement; it is not conflict; it is not opposition. These are perfectly ordinary phenomena which, when engaged in mutually, honestly, and not excessively, are necessary to keep an organism or organization healthy and active. Trashing is a particularly vicious form of character assassination which amounts to psychological rape. It is manipulative, dishonest, and excessive. It is occasionally disguised by the rhetoric of honest conflict, or covered up by denying that any disapproval exists at all. But it is not done to expose disagreements or resolve differences. It is done to disparage and destroy."

Here is the URL for "Trashing: The Dark Side of Sisterhood."  I'm so glad to have found it again.  When I was being trashed in a feminist-run job, this article was my Bible. 

The use of only first names, "Joreen," "Bev," etc., surely takes me back to my early days in the feminist movement.

Although the situation here is far different from what we go through with our DIL's, some of the tactics described are the same, particularly in my case the covering over of the truth with a facade that we, in fact not she, are responsible for what is happening due to her actions.

Kathleen


http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/trashing.htm

Good Lord Kathleen,  I have Not read the entire article, I did do a lot of skimming, but I get the jist of it all.  I have also seen this happen to women I have worked with...great women being "trashed" and I refused to be involved, of course by then your neck may become next on the platter.    Women are jealous as well as  big bullies....to demean another human being for your own self satisfaction~gratification is pretty sick in my book.....They are pathetic.....

BUT, with your 2 women Kathleen, remember you are new...so they are thinking "who the hell are you to come into my town and tell us what to do.."  Then, they know you are not stupid so they are going to play ring around the rosy with you...Like I said as long as you let them know the games they are playing they might back down...Just come out and tell them..."Hey I am not here to play games with you...I have more important things in my life going on---I do NOT need your drama, nor am I going to get hooked into your crap."  Just tell them "BACK OFF BI@$#"  and walk away.....   Kathleen, they are not signing your paycheck, nor are they paying your mortgage, they have NO value in your life so give them a hard time too..... ROOOOAAAAARRRRRR says the big kitty....  GOOOO get them... :)

I just finished this and the article and I am with Pen on this.  Where I used to live in a small town, any new female that came in that had brains and common sense, was considered a threat.  I can't tell you how many times I heard the phrase Pen said along with "She thinks because she has a college education that she needs to come in and save all us poor country hicks."

Don't get me wrong, I actually did see several of those type of women come in and think that country people didn't know anything, but those like you, that sincerely wanted to help, were unfortunately often lumped into that category too.  Even though you are having trouble with a couple of female dogs, to be elected shows there are people that are on your side and believe in you.  So congratulations on the election and you stick to your guns.  Psssshh.....after dealing with some of our DILS, taking on a whole town is nothing!

ROOOOOAAAAAARRRRRRRRRR!!!!

"Did I say that?"

Dear Pooh, as much as I love adulation, I don't believe I can take credit...or else my memory is really poor. It could go either way.

Kathleen, you know what you're up against and what is required. Don your armour, pick up your spear, get into warrior mode. We're here for you all the way. Thanks for the link, I'd read that article many years ago but had forgotten about it. We will probably always have to deal with trashing in some form or another, unfortunately.

Oh lol!  My bad....it was Faith!  Sorry Pen!

Kathleen~~~Where are you and what is going on NOW????  Remember ROARRRRR like a lion..

Faith

We're all growling...hear our mighty roar? We're with you K.  >:( >:( >:(

Well, I'm not sure you guys really want the details of the latest mess with the gravel pit, but since you asked, here goes nothing.

Once more trashing me, one of the two women giving me trouble put out the meeting agenda for the next regular meeting next week.  This is the job and right of the chairperson, and never goes out earlier than two days before the meeting, so clearly she was chopping me off at the knees. (She would like to kill me, but so far can't get away with it.)  As this is the job of the chairman (lucky me) it was an open act of war against any authority I might have and yet another of her efforts to show me up as a complete idiot (which I am, for joining this board).  Next, I reported problems (sans any names) to a man on the board.  He can be a nice guy or a total egomaniac, but he is always 100% sure his opinions are correct.  I think he was enjoying the cat fight.  He informed me the board has absolutely no such communication, delegation, role, or agreement problems such as I reported.  Denial is sweet.  Think Emperor's New Clothes.

Since then I have been cut out of any information circulating from the board at all. 

Meanwhile back at the ranch, the lawyers for the gravel pit met in a closed session with the town secretary and gathered a bunch of documents (intimidation.)  Then, suddenly this morning, after re-scheduling the hearing once already for a snow storm, the date was changed from the 9th (this week) to the 22nd, and not on the regular Zoning board night.  My own opinion?  The lawyers for the other side wanted it to happen during Presidents week when many here take their kids and go south or on vacation.  They further confused the issue by picking a night that wasn't regular for Zoning.  That way, fewer citizens are likely to show up.

I met with the man who proposed me for chairman.  He suggested I "take the bull by the horns" (only in this case it's not a bull but a big cow) and force the agenda we need for the next regularly schedule board meeting (are you still with me, or have you rightfully left to watch Oprah?)
So this morning I tried, going outside to another source to complicated to report here.  You can guess what this got me:  an overwhelmingly loud, long, silence.

The man who proposed me also told me straight out that the "hidden agenda" is to accept this pit instead of a housing development.  I think that's why the two women continue to act out against me, as they know I'm sincerely working against the pit.  Snakes in the grass they are,
with their "hidden agendas." 

My best friend is screaming at me in emails to resign; I think if I don't, I won't lose her friendship but certainly her esteem.  It's so important for me, she says, to see it's a no-win situation and that every transaction with these clowns will end in humiliation and stress.  So I'm planning my resignation letter probably to be submitted in a day or two.  I can't stand it any longer and just want my life back.  Hubby says if the pit goes thru, the house goes on the market. My friend agrees with you, Luise, when you said there are plenty of good places to live where a gravel pit doesn't own the town.  I'm very sad about the man who organized the citizens group against the pit.  He knows all about the members of the board and thought I was the biggest hope on the board.  He has done such a great job of organizing people and getting them involved, educated, and moving.  I think he is the true hope for the whole thing.  He was so excited, overjoyed, when he found out I was Chairman.

Well, you asked!  The only decision left is whether or not to tell them the real reason I am resigning (after 10 days as chair) or leave them to their imaginations.  Having successfully opted for the high road in many past dealings, including with my DIL, I will probably send an oblique one or two sentences citing the "sudden press of business" and leave them to their graveyard.

Pen, thanks so much for all your support.  I truly value it.

Pooh, as you said, this is a small town---320 people (soon to be 318, I hope.)  To think I came here to escape the grind of the city!  Now only a different kind of grind is available, and it ain't coffee!

Thanks for sharing,

Kathleen

Politics will forever be nothing more then politics.. always  someone pushing their own agenda with no regard to the general population.

I'd tell them why you were leaving if that is your final answer.

How about a letter exposing all the nefarious doings dropped into the in box at the local newspaper on your way out of town? Or to 60 Minutes?

Kathleen, all we want is for you to be safe and happy. You gave it a good try and you can be proud of yourself. Not many people step up like that. Take care.

I would do my best to get the man who organized against the gravel pit named as chairman in my stead.  Can you, as the real chairman, appoint him as interim or acting chairman?  I really love to see how fast your two usurpers fall down on their knees to a man.

I have never heard of a town with so few people and so many committees.  Seems the smaller the town, the more drama over power. 

What a rough road, Kathleen! Sending love...

Kathleen,

It doesn't matter what your two ladies submit, nor does it matter what they call it, it can't be the true agenda, because the agenda comes from the chairman.  As chairman, I would submit an agenda and then wait to see what happens.  Is the board serious about you as chairman of this committee or not?  If not, there is your reason to resign.

Of course, you aren't going to win this one, but if you knew me better, you would know that I would be spending my shower time plotting ways to embarrass your two ladies.  Even if it were nothing more than an invitation to coffee at a public cafe.  Someplace where they might not want to discuss their underhanded actions.

I am putting them on my much-used, imaginary raft and pushing them out into shark-infested waters.  >:(

I don't understand the insistence of your two ladies in taking over your committee.  Are they actually that power-hungry?  Or?  Are they being supported by someone, some corporate interests?  I would be really curious to know whom they talk to.  Who comes to their homes to discuss this gravel pit?  Was one of them at that meeting between the gravel pit representatives and the town secretary?

Not that it all matters.  But it doesn't make sense to me.  Two women, both determined to rule this committee.  I have never known a case where two women would be so quick to undermine you.  Are they worried that you might prevail?  Are they acting on behalf of others?

Quote from: luise.volta on February 07, 2011, 03:12:25 PM
I am putting them on my much-used, imaginary raft and pushing them out into shark-infested waters.  >:(

I agree with Luise!!!

Kathleen, you have given it your all, now give yourself a pat on the back...You did ROOAARR there are just two many games being played as usual..... and who needs that?????

I will have to side with what your DH said~~put that for sale sign up and get out of Dodge before the whole town turns into a gravel pit and then whom is going to buy any property in that town???

Kathleen, do what you think is RIGHT to do..what you will be happy with......I know you will make the right decision...and what ever that may be I am behind you 101%....

Sending good thoughts and Hugs your way...Faith

I think you are a great person for taking the high road, but I'm with Laurie, I would have to write out my true reasons for resigning.  They don't want a chairperson, they want a scapegoat to blame everything on.

And I am truly sorry, as I know you just wanted to stand up for what was right.  I had as many reasons to hate the small town I lived in for 20 years, as I did to love it.

Sea & all,

The situation is so complicated as to be almost impossible to describe.

There were two women who wanted to take over the writing of the statement against the pit; one serves as assistant town secretary, and she is the same person who sent me that original email back about a month ago stating she wanted the gravel pit over a housing development.  She is the one busy undermining me at every turn, the big problem.

The Commission itself is under fire for having done absolutely nothing over the past six years, when it had many tools at hand to stop this kind of
activity from coming into our town.  The members are known as do-nothings who simply enjoy sitting back and acting important. 

The woman in question, I believe, truly resents me because my family didn't come over on the Mayflower.  I forgot to mention to her that my husband went to Harvard; that would have solved a lot, but it's too late. 

Each act of this woman is designed to secretly undermine any effort the Commission made to stop the pit.  The statement she drafted is much weaker than it could have been.  By taking over the agenda, she completely eliminated any demands I made to focus that meeting on a plan regarding the pit.  She wants that pit in, and she is willing to do anything underhanded toward that goal.  The male problem is married to a woman who is on the Zoning board.  I think she's going to vote for issuing the permit to open the pit.  So you see, this is yet another group with a round, rosy mission statement, busy behind the scenes doing the opposite.

She may also be a classic sociopath who enjoys passive-aggressively manipulating people just for the sake of doing it.  My best friend has been involved in commissions as a necessary part of her work and says this type of personality never stops insulting/deceiving/manipulating. 

So in the end, at least the way the members are acting, indeed they simply want a schill to put out up front.  They make it absolutely impossible for me to function, but I will certainly get the blame if things go wrong.  This is the classic responsibility-with-no-authority nightmare situation.  I gave it one last ditch attempt yesterday to force the excavation pit onto the agenda for the regular Commission meeting next week.  Denied.  I'm not showing up at that meeting with two agendas being passed out; that's what happened with the written statement, they producing theirs, and I, thinking mine was the final draft, producing mine.  Eyes were raised at me.

However, it is all a moot point by now because I am resigning firmly tomorrow, not just from the chairmanship but from the Commission.  I would do it today except there's a Citizens meeting tonight and I don't want it dominated by a discussion of why I'm leaving.  I also think the fix is in; all this effort is for nothing; the permit will be issued, and the excavation company will probably move in by spring.  I'll still be active in the Citizens group; I can do much more there anyway, and the guy who runs it thinks I walk on water (or did, maybe won't after I resign.)

I will really be glad when the whole thing is over.  This is very much a no-win.  What will probably happen is the problem woman will become chairman.  She can then work openly, long and hard, to keep children out of this town.

Kathleen

I've got a good line for you, Kathleen. My family came over on the Mayflower and when I married the son of a Belgian immigrant, he said...are you ready...."The Immigration Laws are a lot stricter now!"  ;D ;D ;D

I'm putting your line on a pillow, Luise, so as never to forget it.  As far as the snob schools go, did you hear the one about the Unabomber, that Yale graduate?  They say they would have caught him sooner if he'd gone to Harvard.

By the way, I just looked him up and his land is for sale in Montana for $69,500 without the cabin.  "Very secluded."  Perfect for a woman who wants to get away from all the children in the world.  Do you think I should send her the listing?

Very funny, Luise, and gave me a lift!

Kathleen

Oh, definitely pass that listing on!  ;D ;D ;D

LOL..

When people show you who they are, believe them.

                                                                       —Maya Angelou

Great line, Pen, and here's one from "Dodsworth" that is very similar:  Do you ever notice how transparent people are when you really look at them?

Kathleen

Quote from: Pen on February 08, 2011, 02:28:45 PM
LOL..

When people show you who they are, believe them.

                                                                       —Maya Angelou

That's great Pen!  I'm putting that one on a pillow!

MIL's,

I was up in the middle of the night drafting my resignation from the Commission.  Once I got it, I slept well for the first time since all this started.  I submitted it this morning.

The good news is that there is a very well-run citizens group forming against the pit.  We met last night.  Great people, a real agenda, equal dialogue.  I will be active with them.   I think I will actually have friends on it.  It will be so nice not to be an object of games and hostility anymore.  It feels like a huge boulder has been lifted from my shoulders.  And who knows, maybe I'll make it into Guinness for having the shortest term of a Conservation commissioner in history!

As for this afternoon, I'm going to watch a Lifetime movie and take a nap.  Maybe two Lifetime movies; maybe two naps.  Maybe coconut candy.

Thanks for all your support.  It was so helpful, so invaluable, to have a place to go with all this.  You guys are tops.

Appreciatively,

Kathleen

Good news, Kathleen! I'm glad you got out of that situation. Good for you! Enjoy your afternoon...

Good to hear Kathleen that it gave you a good nights sleep.  And congrats on finding a nicer group.

Thanks again to all of you who wrote with such great suggestions and support about my neighbors. They are gone!

They moved out a few weeks ago.  Then one Sunday they came back.  Hubby was at his health club and I was in the kitchen when I heard a loud engine noise.  I thought gee, it's Sunday, there aren't big trucks on the road today.  So I went to the window and saw their truck in my driveway.  There is no chance they drove down my driveway by accident, because they lived just across the street.  I think they saw me at the window and and pulled out. Who knows what they wanted? Made my sons and hubby nervous so hub is getting estimates on a driveway gate with an automatic shut and open on it.

That afternoon that they returned was their usual three-ring circus, with many other trucks coming and going and revving engines and parking on conservation land.  They had left the place in quite a state, so now they were throwing some of their yard junk on the backs of the trucks.  Finally they were gone and as Hub said, "It's like hitting yourself with a hammer, when it stops it feels so good." 

We pretty much thought that was the end of it, until Hub stopped into the police station yesterday to talk to his buddy, who runs the desk, for advice on who builds the best security fences.  He got a recommendation, and also the news that the neighbors from h had been evicted!  For non-payment of rent! 

This means that the landlord/owner who refused to help us got stiffed on his rent; the rental agent at the local real estate company who also refused to help and was so nasty had his reputation damaged; and the neighbors had to move in the middle of the school year.

Do you believe in karma, what goes around comes around?  I feel badly for the kids, but they were approaching becoming teenagers and I was imagining having a couple more in that household fixing cars, snowmobiles, and shooting around in loud ATV's.  On that score they practically wrecked the owner's lawn and ran the vehicles on their abutter's land until those people had to get it stopped.  And I don't feel bad for the others involved since they did nothing to help us and our other neighbors. 

Happy days are here again!  Onward to the gravel pit; that outcome doesn't look so good now, but it's not over yet.

Kathleen

Buy the place quck and maybe donate it to the conservation piece!

Show me the money honey and I'll do just that!!!

Kathleen

Hi Kathleen,  Glad to see you are back :) along with the good news as well...However, I do hope the landlord just does not go and rent it out again to some troublemakers~~ then on the upswing he may now become more careful with his choices!!!!!  YAY for you.....Keep a lookin up~never down.....and keep up the GREAT work!!!

Hugs across the many miles, Faith :)