Good morning, ladies. I had the talk with my MIL. Mind you, this was the first time we had spoken since our huge blowout last February. It was not the easiest thing I had ever done, but it was completely necessary in order to have some peace back in my family. I'm not going to lie to you all about my feeling towards my MIL before this little chat that we had. I was really hurt and angry with her and I expected a heartfelt apology from her and if I didn't get it, I was not going to reconcile. An apology seems like such a little thing and most people have laughed at me because I was so "hung up" on getting one. Believe me when I tell you those two little words can really have a huge impact on the soul. Those words have the ability to soften even the hardest of hearts. To say you are sorry is to surrender to yourself and take back the things you said or did, even if you thought they were justifiable. This is my opinion, however and I know others may not view it the same way. I am happy to tell you that I did get an apology. Did it heal all wounds? No. I am still working on putting myself back together, but it was a start.
Getting this apology was not easy. Not because I had to squeeze it out of my MIL, but because I had to surrender my feelings on the matter and I had to own up to my part in this. When I answered the phone, I knew that I had to say that I was sorry before I said anything else (Yes, you read that right). Not because I instigated a fight with her, but because I reacted to her verbal attack in a way that did not fall in line with my own beliefs. When I struck back at her, I let myself down. I reacted in exactly the opposite way that I should have. How much different would that situation have been if I would have tried to diffuse it instead of escalate it? I have always taught my own children to be a better the person and walk away from a verbal attack and I didn't set a great example of this. (Side note: I think my applogy made it easier for her to say that she was sorry. It brought her defenses down.) So yes, an applogy was needed on my part, too.
After we said our apologies, MIL didn't want to talk about the matter any further and wanted to let it go. I explained to her that we have always swept things under the rug before and never spoke of them and that I wasn't going to allow that this time. We were going to put it all out on the table. I wanted to confront her on the things she said to me and I wanted to let her know, in a respectful manner, how those things made me think and feel about her and myself. Yes she apologized, but it is easy to say you are sorry when you don't actually have to confront and own up to what you did head on. Bringing the issues to light is necessary, in my opinion. However, I let her know that once we talked about what was said and done, that we would not bring it up again. We closed the issue and tied up all loose ends. It's over. That does not mean that there are not scars and hurt feelings; I am still licking my wounds. It just means that the healing can finally begin and that will take some time. I have no illusions about that. Our relationship is still badly torn and it will take a while to repair. And, infact, it may never be the same again. That is a very real consequence of family feuding. Wounds heal, but they leave scars as well. Scars can change you. I also explained to MIL that when you have children and there are challenges involved, you want your family to support you. Not tear you down. Family is the one resource that should always back you up. When that familial support is not there, is makes it harder to have a relationship with them. Nuff said.
Dh and I decided that we would deal with the boundary issues as the arrive. We are taking one step at a time and slow steps at that. I am still very guarded about MIL. I think that it is best to keep it casual for the time being. That may not be what she wants, but it is all I can offer. So, ladies, what are your thoughts on all of this?
If I had a hat handy, it would be off to you! Beautiful! I can think of a lot of other ways to describe your courage and depth...but "beautiful" pretty much covers my sense of what you did...what you put into it and what you got out of it. Sending love...
I'll match your "beautiful" and raise you one "brave". :D
It does sound like you did a good job and you got the result you wanted! I think it's great that you took a look at how you could have contributed to the whole situation. That's a big deal.
From what you've written, your MIL does sound awful but speaking from a MIL position, I hope you'll be able to start finding some good things about her and begin to validate them. Like with little kids, we try to commend the good behavior so that it might move to the forefront over the bad. I have a feeling that underneath all this retched behavior is a MIL who is missing her role as a Mom like many of us are. When I think of her, I think of someone who is floundering in her new "Not The Mama" role.
Just my 2ยข. I think it's great that you care enough to keep your family intact.
@ Louise and sassy- Thank you, thank you!
@ Doe- Thank you, too. I really do recognize the the "not the mamma" issues with MIL. She does like having things "her way" and like to call all the shots. Makes sense. I will try very hard to find the good things about MIL and point them out to her. It is something I need to do, but it has often been hard because I have always been on the defensive mode with her. I will keep that in mind.
You did great and remained very poised. I think the hard work for you is now ahead. Trying not to let anything she says pull you back into the past offenses. I think when we are guarded, and understandably so, it's easy to let the past sabatoge what's happening now. You did wonderful.
Pooh, you are very right about that! Remaining guarded is exactly why I am easing into this one toenail at a time. Jumping in with both feet is not an option for me. It will take a while to gain the trust back in this relationship. MIL tore me down and ripped from my foundations as a wife, mother and as a friend It will take a while to rebuild and make myself whole.
My DIL and I put all our cards on the table , it was the only way we were going to continue .
It's tough and takes a lot of guts , but I wanted a relationship with my Gd , as I think my DIL
and I are too different to ever gel . We tolerate each other mostly .
It took time to renew our relationship , but a lot of space and mutual respect worked for us .
Time will tell after this last five months of living together , I think she will head for the hills
never to be seen again ....we shall see.
Quote from: momof2 on November 02, 2011, 01:50:03 PM
Pooh, you are very right about that! Remaining guarded is exactly why I am easing into this one toenail at a time. Jumping in with both feet is not an option for me. It will take a while to gain the trust back in this relationship. MIL tore me down and ripped from my foundations as a wife, mother and as a friend It will take a while to rebuild and make myself whole.
She doesn't define you, remember that. You had the guts to do what a lot of people in your place wouldn't -- you confronted it head on. Take it easy on yourself
Quote from: momof2 on November 02, 2011, 01:50:03 PM
Pooh, you are very right about that! Remaining guarded is exactly why I am easing into this one toenail at a time. Jumping in with both feet is not an option for me. It will take a while to gain the trust back in this relationship. MIL tore me down and ripped from my foundations as a wife, mother and as a friend It will take a while to rebuild and make myself whole.
This is how I feel about my DIL; her treatment of me has torn me down and created doubt & insecurity - and it is taking me awhile to rebuild and become whole again. The difference is that I cannot face DIL head on because I'll lose DS. It may be awkward & painful for DILs to confront their MILs, but the risk isn't the same as it is for MILs who must confront a rude, overbearing DIL.
That said, I think you did well, Momof2. You handled your situation in a way that left MIL with her dignity but also stood up for your family. I hope your MIL continues to progress.
The risk of addressing the issues is not the same for mistreated MILs as it is for mistreated DILs. It is a different risk. MILs risk the mother-adult son bond becoming more tenuous, and risk time with the grandchildren. For the most part, MILs probably aren't risking their marriage, home, and young children's lifestyle by addressing issues with their grown son's wife.
DILs can feel like their if their life partners start to believe only 5% of what they're being erroneously accused of, it will create cracks in the foundation of a marriage and family. Like a gardener is actively planting seeds of hate in your marriage, that may have 50 years or more before they sprout and grow. If I have trouble with his mother now, how will he feel about me after she's gone; will he blame me? Even the strongest romantic love bond can feel in jeopardy when your husband's mom, the woman he loved before any other, thinks you're a bad person and tells him why every chance she can. Moms do have a lot of credibility with their adult kids. It's hard for an adult to let go of the concept that their parent must be looking out for his best interest, on some level. As a DIL to a MIL who's decided I am bad for her son, bad for her family, unloving, selfish, materialistic...I am acutely aware that my whole marriage, life, dreams, and future rests on my DH's ability to be able to see, on every level, that the single mother who raised him, is fundamentally "wrong."
Quote from: Sassy on November 03, 2011, 04:53:55 AM
Moms do have a lot of credibility with their adult kids.
I wish!
Sassy, you are right on! That is exactly the difference between MILs and DILs (at least in my situation). My MIL hay have lost some time with her DS and GC, and I'm sure that was painful. But I can tell you that the turmoil caused by my MIL's accusations felt as if it nearly ripped my marriage in two. MIL was able to hang up the phone or walk away from the fight and the situation and go back to her quiet, peaceful home. I, on the other hand, was left to clean up the bomb she set off in my home. For me to walk away, I would have had to leave my DH or my home. It is where I lived. MIL caused trouble in my only place of refuge and that, I think, is a lot more than what she had to suffer. There was no escaping the disaster for me. It was in my face constantly causing my DH and I to argue. I really don't think MILs really understand the trouble that they can cause in their children's marriage. If they were to see and hear all the things that happened behind closed doors, they would probably think twice about what comes out of their mouths. Then again, I think some MILs want their children's marriage to be destroyed and that some of the find pleasure in all of it. It was their goal from the beginning to be a destructive force. I can only speak from my own personal experience that my situation with my MIL felt as if she set fire to my home and then walked away to leave us to clean up the disaster. She said her peace and left us in the chaos and rubble. If she had to suffer at all, it wasn't anything like what my DH and children had to go through. She managed to destroy our place of refuge and our place of safety all the while she was able to return home and continue on with her life. Although I am sure it is hurtful to MILs to be set apart from their DSs, it's not the same kind of hurt that we as DILs feel. Our homes literally fall apart because it is hard for the DHs to separate their past from their future. My DH took a vow to love me, forsaking all others. I don't think my MIL truly understands what that means. I think the Biblical passage about the sons leaving the mother and father and cleaving to the wife sets a clear image of what a marriage should be. The people under the DHs roof come first, then everyone else. It's not to say that they are not important or loved less, but that their role in the DS's life has changed. I think that those words were meant to have a purpose in today's society. We are so obligated to technology and are constantly in contact with one another in one form or another that we often forget that there are boundaries that are there for a reason; To give some sort of separation, even if just a little separation, between the homes and families that live under them.
This has been debated here before and it all boils down to everyone suffers. There is no DIL suffers more, MIL suffers more...everyone suffers. I can say that because I have been on both sides. An awful MIL that interfered in my marriage and home as you guys are describing and now an MIL myself that has lost a Son. They are both painful in their own ways and I assure you, they both hurt terribly. If it is an MIL causing issues, it hurts the DIL terribly and when it's a DIL causing issues, it hurts the MIL/FOO terribly.
FWIW, both our parents gave us grief at times, but my husband and I never allowed that to come in between our marriage. We got married when we were older, maybe that was the difference. We were already far away from the parents and had no doubts about how their opinions affected our lives.
I think it's the boundaries thing again. You protect your home and family from toxic people and situations.
QuoteAs a DIL to a MIL to a DIL who's decided I am bad for her son, bad for her family, unloving, selfish, materialistic...I am acutely aware that my whole marriage, life, dreams, and future rests on my DH's ability to be able to see, on every level, that the single mother who raised him, is fundamentally "wrong."
Let me rephrase this - as a MIL who's decided that I am bad for her son, her family, unloving, selfish, materialistic (and crazy to boot) ... I am acutely aware that my efforts in parenting unselfishly and loving and giving without any expectations or reciprocations rests on my son to believe that I am and never was the "evil" person that is broadcast to a world of listeners and gossipers. I can't defend myself and having to go from an esteemed member of a family and a church and a career and a neighbourhood to "crazy" is very hard, indeed. Momof2 - both sides are equally painful.
Quote from: jdtm on November 03, 2011, 07:44:47 AM
QuoteAs a DIL to a MIL to a DIL who's decided I am bad for her son, bad for her family, unloving, selfish, materialistic...I am acutely aware that my whole marriage, life, dreams, and future rests on my DH's ability to be able to see, on every level, that the single mother who raised him, is fundamentally "wrong."
Let me rephrase this - as a MIL who's DIL has decided that I am bad for her son, her family, unloving, selfish, materialistic (and crazy to boot) ... I am acutely aware that my efforts in parenting unselfishly and loving and giving without any expectations or reciprocations rests on my son to believe that I am and never was the "evil" person that is broadcast to a world of listeners and gossipers. I can't defend myself and having to go from an esteemed member of a family and a church and a career and a neighbourhood to "crazy" is very hard, indeed. Momof2 - both sides are equally painful.
Quote from: jdtm on November 03, 2011, 07:44:47 AM
I can't defend myself and having to go from an esteemed member of a family and a church and a career and a neighbourhood to "crazy" is very hard, indeed. Momof2 - both sides are equally painful.
Hear, hear, jdtm.
Sorry - meant to correct an error - not post twice (and still did not correct the error).
first sentence should read ..as a MIL whose DIL etc. etc. etc.
Quote The difference is that I cannot face DIL head on because I'll lose DS. It may be awkward & painful for DILs to confront their MILs, but the risk isn't the same as it is for MILs who must confront a rude, overbearing DIL.
Pooh, I agree. Pain is pain. Suffering hurts. I was expouding specifically on something about
risk of confrontation, written above. Pen is right, the risk is not the same. I really need to remember to include quotes on exactly what I'm referring to. I think sometimes it might appear that all a DIL is risking, is her relationship with her MIL: someone she may not have known well or for very long, and may never have been close to. For a MIL the possibile ancillary casualty of acknlowledged conflict with her DIL, is her bond with her beloved son. It may be less obvious that for a DIL, the possible ancillary casualty of conflict with MIL, is her bond with her husband (and father of her young children).
Also if the DS is weak he believes everything his DW tells him and cannot think for himself or make
his own judgements or opinions .
A stronger man would fight for his relationship with his Mom while trying to pacify his wife .
Most of them sit on the fence and let the women get on with it !
Of course there are mitigating circumstances , unless he is there to witness it , a lot of it is hearsay .
He could really sort a lot of friction out on both sides , but as usual he is trying to keep them both happy .
He could put his Mom in her place , he can also set his DW straight too , and we would still love him !
C'mon guys step up and control your women !!
I was speaking from my own experience & I understand everyone has their own perception. I should have made it more personal and less of a general statement.
Just for the record, I have experienced a broken marriage due to an overbearing MIL. It was very painful and left me in a shambles. But now I know the marriage wasn't strong to begin with - if my XDH could be so easily swayed by his DM, there wasn't a great foundation to build on anyway although I was madly in love. Speaking of financial security, I took a major hit when I divorced...XDH & his FOO were extremely wealthy & I took nothing, not even the engagement "boulder." Left all my stuff, got out & spent the next few years struggling to rebuild a life. Even when I'd get the big Christmas letter from XSIL detailing the FOO's ski trips in Europe or summers at the lake house, I was glad to be out of it. I'm grateful now that it turned out the way it did, because I married a great, supportive guy & have two wonderful AC.
The pain of my bad marriage and subsequent divorce in no way equals how I feel about being in last place now with DS/DIL or in threat of a cutoff if I make one misstep or stand up for better treatment. Losing access to a child, even an adult child, is immense for me. My now-DH would stand up for me against all comers, so no worries there. In my life, there's no risk in standing up to now-MIL (not that I would) but extraordinary risk in standing up to DIL. But that's just how it is for me.
Lancaster Lady - CONTROL? Really? Ugh - I was with you until that last line.
Personally, I don't think a DIL can break a *strong* relationship between her DH and MIL. She can stretch it, but not break it. I think that the relationship can't have been too strong to begin with, if it's that fragile.
My MIL would tell you that she had a wonderful relationship with her DS before I came along. However, it was only wonderful 'in her head'. She didn't respect him as an adult. Nor did she try to get to know the adult version of him. She didn't see him as anything other than her little baby boy, in a grown up body. Guess how well that's worked for her?
I smiled when I saw your name up in reply ......that was meant to be the jokey bit .....love you Scoop :)
Quote from: Scoop on November 03, 2011, 08:40:49 AM
I think that the relationship can't have been too strong to begin with, if it's that fragile.
Ouch
QuoteI think it's the boundaries thing again. You protect your home and family from toxic people and situations.
I agree! When your DH loves the person engaging in toxic behavior, and you yourself feel genuine love for the person, hope springs eternal. We love the person, not the behavior. My DH is an only child raised by a single mother. Mom was his FOO. I know the pain cuts her not to have her son in her life. I have seen the tears, heard the words and read the letters.
I confess that we both pray that our boundaries against her toxic behavior won't have to be a brick wall forever. We're adults who have had other long term relationships. We support ourselves. We're in true love. We've done premarital and post marital counseling about this. We've invited her to counseling. He's invited her to three different counselors. We both read this website regularly. We've made our one contigency clear to each other and to her: When she doesn't call me horrible names, he / we will spend time with her. We, and every counselor we've seen, thinks it's a reasonable, even necessary, contigency. Still doesn't take away the pain of her absence for my DH, or for her. He misses her! I miss her!
Not enough that DH thinks we should do what it would take for her to stop calling me names. Such as, pay on her department store bills, take her on vacation with us, text or talk on the phone with her several times a day, have her drop by at her whim, ask for her opinion on our private matters and follow through on her suggestions. He did pay on a lot of her bills, and repainted her condo almost every year, before we married. I did talk and text with her daily, opened the door every time she knocked, and included her in some personal decisions, before we married. When I turned down a weekend girls trip to Las Vegas with just her, she was horribly rejected. When DH stopped paying on her bills to save for the wedding and plan for a home, she called me a golddigger. (She would be surprised if she knew about our finances). She told DH's Grandmother, Aunt and cousins that I was, too. It all went downhill from there.
My whole life I was encouraged to take responsibility for my actions, and consider how they affect others. My whole life I was taught it takes two to tango and it takes two to argue. Having to stay away from his mother, to protect our marriage from the slow erosion of hateful and blaming talk, feels selfish. It might be the "good" kind of selfish, self-protection. But it still feels selfish to me. It's not lost on me that my failed relationship with my MIL, is the reason DH doesn't talk to his mother. I'm not naive enough to think it can't feel that way to DH sometimes, too. Or that it really won't feel that way when she's gone forever. I have confidence in us as a couple, but I can't take for granted that our love will fix it all. I am all too aware family rifts are serious and the pain runs deep, to hidden places where rational thought doesn't always shine.
Beautiful post Sassy
Quote from: Scoop on November 03, 2011, 08:40:49 AM
Personally, I don't think a DIL can break a *strong* relationship between her DH and MIL. She can stretch it, but not break it. I think that the relationship can't have been too strong to begin with, if it's that fragile.
Do you have an hour for me to tell you the story of how this can happen?
Thank you Pooh. Thank you Luise for giving me this opportunity for catharsis.
QuoteI was speaking from my own experience & I understand everyone has their own perception. I should have made it more personal and less of a general statement.
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Pen I liked your statement. I agree and I was expounding on it with my own corresponding perception, hoping it could be of value. We all feel that looming threat of being unloved and rejected, if we take the risk of letting someone know what we want and what we find too painful to tolerate. Reading about the pain of the very loving moms on this site has helped me maintain compassion for my MIL. If I let myself harden too much and turn to bitterness, make his mother the other, I think most hope of reconcilliation would be off the table.
QuotePersonally, I don't think a DIL can break a *strong* relationship between her DH and MIL. She can stretch it, but not break it. I think that the relationship can't have been too strong to begin with, if it's that fragile.
Well, shoot. Then, if a DH and his wife have a strong relationship to begin with, no mere MIL is any threat to break it either.
*fingers crossed mine is strong enough*
Quote from: Doe on November 03, 2011, 09:19:40 AM
Quote from: Scoop on November 03, 2011, 08:40:49 AM
Personally, I don't think a DIL can break a *strong* relationship between her DH and MIL. She can stretch it, but not break it. I think that the relationship can't have been too strong to begin with, if it's that fragile.
Do you have an hour for me to tell you the story of how this can happen?
I'd be interested to hear, can you start a new thread? You provide a unique take on situations and I then realize I don't know much about yours. Please do
Oh Pam, you caught me!
I've started to tell this before but never hit the post button. I'll do that sometime soon.
Quote from: Pen on November 03, 2011, 08:33:30 AM
I was speaking from my own experience & I understand everyone has their own perception. I should have made it more personal and less of a general statement.
Just for the record, I have experienced a broken marriage due to an overbearing MIL. It was very painful and left me in a shambles. But now I know the marriage wasn't strong to begin with - if my XDH could be so easily swayed by his DM, there wasn't a great foundation to build on anyway although I was madly in love. Speaking of financial security, I took a major hit when I divorced...XDH & his FOO were extremely wealthy & I took nothing, not even the engagement "boulder." Left all my stuff, got out & spent the next few years struggling to rebuild a life. Even when I'd get the big Christmas letter from XSIL detailing the FOO's ski trips in Europe or summers at the lake house, I was glad to be out of it. I'm grateful now that it turned out the way it did, because I married a great, supportive guy & have two wonderful AC.
The pain of my bad marriage and subsequent divorce in no way equals how I feel about being in last place now with DS/DIL or in threat of a cutoff if I make one misstep or stand up for better treatment. Losing access to a child, even an adult child, is immense for me. My now-DH would stand up for me against all comers, so no worries there. In my life, there's no risk in standing up to now-MIL (not that I would) but extraordinary risk in standing up to DIL. But that's just how it is for me.
I understand where you're coming from, Pen. But I think it's a catch 22 -- if you don't stand up for yourself there is only a slim chance things will get better with DS and a *great* chance your self esteem and self worth will get a lot worse. Looking at it as an outsider I think you have more on the losing side by being quiet.
I think you need to put yourself first in some of these situations. And I think you might be surprised, Pen. People take note of the strong, they recognize it in a person and even if they don't agree with them, they *do* respect them.
Quote from: Doe on November 03, 2011, 09:29:11 AM
Oh Pam, you caught me!
I've started to tell this before but never hit the post button. I'll do that sometime soon.
I'm going to hold you to it! ***foot tapping***
:)
Oh Scoop ;D
Not having access is different than a "broken" relationship...if you were referring to my post, wink wink.
DS & I have always been fine. He calls, texts, visits & invites us to meet up when DIL is otherwise engaged. DH & I rarely instigate a meet up. DIL's FOO is overbearing, bossy and belittling, but they are inked in solid on DIL's (& therefore DS's) social calendar while mellow DH & I go about our business grateful for dribs and drabs. We defend DS/DIL's marriage and support it, so it would never come down to a choice for DS between his DW & his FOO. (I'm not sure DIL knows that we refused to dump on DIL with DS when he came here angry & frustrated by DIL's treatment of us. We told him she was his priority now & he had to work it out with her. I understood that might have been the last time I saw my DS, but it was the honorable thing to do.)
I guess DH & I should have been more forceful in promoting our FOO from the start, but it's not our style. We thought we'd be appreciated more for backing off. Oops! Our loss, DIL's FOO's gain. I'm wiser now, but alas have no more sons, lol.
Ha ha ha...Doe got caught....Doe got caught.... ;D
Pen, I didn't mean you specifically. Your DIL continues to baffle me.
However, your post does illustrate my example. Because your relationship with your DS is strong, you still have one. No matter how hard your DIL has tried, she hasn't broken it completely. She's stretched it, certainly, and (I believe) maliciously. However, your DS hasn't thrown in the towel and neither, it seems, have you. That speaks of a strong relationship.
I just wanted to point out (again) that it's the DH / DS who has the burden to maintain or even "fix" the relationship with his P's. Sassy, you said you hoped that MIL wouldn't have the power to interfere in your relationship with DH, well, it would be up to your DH to NOT give her that power. Just like it's up to the DS to not give the power to his wife, to keep him from his FOO.
It's very hard to take our personal situation out these conversations because we all rely on our personal experience to generate our feelings about things sometimes. I catch myself all the time going, "Ok, we are just having a conversation, it's not personal to my situation."
So I have to ask sincerely Scoop, do you not believe outside influences can sway someone's thought pattern? When I read your statement, all I could think of was the teenager that had good parents, was taught morals and ethics, right and wrong, had never been a problem but all of a sudden starts hanging out with a really bad crowd at school and their attitude changes completely. They start having problems at school, talking back to their parents, drop out of sports and so on why the parents are scratching their head and going, "Where did I go wrong?"
Do I think the ultimate responsibility lies with the teenager? Sure, but I do believe outside influences can play a huge role in someone's way of thinking and acting.
Wow! Lots of talk on this post! I am happy to see all the communication. I am so glad that we all have a place to run to and speak out. Love you each!
That's why we love it here and everyone here! We get into these conversations that bring up really good points and I love hearing everyone's take on it.
Glad to have you hear mom.
Quote Sassy, you said you hoped that MIL wouldn't have the power to interfere in your relationship with DH, well, it would be up to your DH to NOT give her that power.
I guess it's not MIL herself, but my inability to get along with her. That doesn't seem based on him giving her power. At this point our lack of contact with her, is what I'm afraid will seep in and undermine the foundation of our love. I'm burdened with the knowledge that love for one's parents runs deep, as it should.
The heart wants what the heart wants. My DH is a very loving person.
I know he loves her, and I know he is hurt by her absence from our lives. I don't know how much power he gives, or even
has over, either of those.
He's always maintained firm boundaries with her, more than I did when we were first getting serious. He was puzzled why I answered her every call or wrote back to her every text. He didn't do that. He gave when he could when he could, and when he couldn't or didn't feel right doing it, he didn't. He had more to give her before he met me. He's the one who immediately made the decision not to talk to her as long as all she wanted to talk about was how he shouldn't be married to me. There's action. And there's feelings. It's great when our actions can match our feelings. DH feels love for MIL, but it is not evident in his action against her.
I don't think it's fear DH would
give MIL a power over us. It's that a resentment, or doubt, that defies logical thought ("I am the one who decided not to listen to my mom say things that hurt me") will take hold and grow. I keep imagining seeds and weeds and ivy working in and breaking up structure. I know that every marriage is a garden to be ever tended. It's sad, downright odd, that we both love the same beautiful man, and yet want such different things for him.
I can honestly say I had the same guilt every time me and my Ex MIL would have an argument. I know it had to be hard on my Ex when I wouldn't want to talk to her. I tried very hard to not let her interfere with our marriage and to remember that it wasn't Ex's fault she was how she was. But if I'm honest, there was always a gnawing resentment towards Ex every time he used the words, "You know how she is". Yes, I knew how she was but at the same time, I wanted him to tell her to stop it, but at the same time, I didn't want him to resent me if their relationship fell apart. So no matter how strong we were together (in the beginning), MIL's actions did reflect into our marriage. That's why I know from both sides, that an outside influence, no matter if that's MIL or DIL can have an impact on another relationship. Moreso, if that's their goal.
Quote from: Pen on November 03, 2011, 09:36:36 AM
DS & I have always been fine. He calls, texts, visits & invites us to meet up when DIL is otherwise engaged. DH & I rarely instigate a meet up. DIL's FOO is overbearing, bossy and belittling, but they are inked in solid on DIL's (& therefore DS's) social calendar while mellow DH & I go about our business grateful for dribs and drabs. We defend DS/DIL's marriage and support it, so it would never come down to a choice for DS between his DW & his FOO. (I'm not sure DIL knows that we refused to dump on DIL with DS when he came here angry & frustrated by DIL's treatment of us. We told him she was his priority now & he had to work it out with her. I understood that might have been the last time I saw my DS, but it was the honorable thing to do.)
I guess DH & I should have been more forceful in promoting our FOO from the start, but it's not our style. We thought we'd be appreciated more for backing off. Oops! Our loss, DIL's FOO's gain. I'm wiser now, but alas have no more sons, lol.
Pen, you seem to have changed in this post. Previously I have always heard that you thought it best to not rock the boat, to not discuss with DS the unequal treatment you receive. I have taken a lot of cues from you, because my situation with DS is almost the same as yours. Are you rethinking your hands-off approach?
QuotePen, you seem to have changed in this post. Previously I have always heard that you thought it best to not rock the boat, to not discuss with DS the unequal treatment you receive. I have taken a lot of cues from you, because my situation with DS is almost the same as yours. Are you rethinking your hands-off approach?
Wow - may I comment on the above statement. My husband and I have been married over 40 years. About the third year into our marriage, my father-in-law approached me and told me that "we'd all be a lot better off if I would leave my husband and son - just leave". I was floored and to this day I do not know what I did "wrong" (I think it was because I had started to re-attend church; my FIL felt church people were hypocites and self-righteous, but I really don't know). Anyway, I never told my husband of this instance until a few years ago. At every family event for over three decades, I just made sure that I was seated near to my FIL or that I was never alone with him. As I said this went on for decades. I'm assuming no one else knew of this instance (and there was never another).
A couple of years ago, my FIL passed away. Within a month or two, my sister-in-law began where my FIL left off. I was told "everyone in this family hates you - just leave and never return". This time, I told my husband. He was so upset and did have a discussion with his mother. Of course, she is elderly and really cannot influence the family any more. We are now partially estranged from his two sisters - would this have happened if I had kept my mouth shut? Both our sons now have nothing to do with their cousins or aunts. Luckily, we still have good contact with our nieces and nephews.
So - the big question - do we "suck it up" and hope everything works out? That didn't work. Do we tell our husband how we are being mistreated? That didn't work either. I guess what I wonder most is "did my husband's family berate and ridicule me behind my back for approximately 40 years"? I really thought that I had fit in. I considered myself a kind and generous DIL, SIL and Aunt. Was I really so hated for over 40 years? I really don't know. And I really don't know if there is a "correct" way to handle a family member who dislikes you.
Pooh - I do believe that outside influences can sway someone, but I don't believe it can change them completely (okay - drugs & alcohol yes).
I can only take from my situation and the situations I've seen.
Case 1 - My SisIL is a pill. She's COMPLETELY different from our family. She could easily have pulled DB away from us. BUT my DM, DF and I all tried really hard to accommodate her. We knew that she didn't like us and we didn't like her, but if we were civil/friendly, she would have no reason to cut us off and THUS we could maintain a relationship with DB & the DN's. It was a small sacrifice to make in the long run. And yes, it did and does involve holding our tongues and walking on eggshells. My DM & DB have a strong relationship. I'm sure he calls her more when SisIL is not around, and he does come visit alone. But no, they do not have a close relationship like *I* do with my Mom. So their relationship is stretched, but not broken.
Case 2 - My DH and MIL don't have an adult relationship. She treats him like an unruly teenager and he stonewalls her. For a long time, their relationship seemed better, because *I* was making more of an effort, nagging him to return her calls, chatting with her, buying their presents, making plans to keep the visits "fair". Well, when I pulled back, neither of them stepped in and thus, their relationship is very distant. And really, if I *wanted* to, it would not be hard to break it. But that's because it's not strong. It's not based on reality. She has her image in her head of who he is and that's that. She doesn't know him as an adult. And every time she rags on him for some stupid thing, she pushes him further away.
So maybe I can see your point that I could break their relationship, but I still maintain that if it was strong, I couldn't. He's not whipped, he stands up to me all the time and he could very easily have a better relationship with his P's. I've never said "no" when he suggests a visit. I've never so much as clucked my tongue when they call.
I get you and the two situations you presented and understand what your saying. Let's take an instance of what I have dealt with and see if it makes sense to why I believe this way.
Os and I had a close relationship. It was based on mutual respect. I had to be the disciplinarian in my Son's lives because their Dad wasn't. I was at every sporting event imaginable, sat down every night and did homework with them, not going to bore you with a long list, but you get what I'm saying. They knew they were loved and cared for and I was thanked a gazillion times by OS for being a good Mom. I know I'm not perfect, but you will just have to believe we had a very close relationship.
Now, Ex does his thing when OS is 18 and starting his first year of College, still living with me. OS was very comforting and supportive of me, and angry at Ex over the GF and his walking out. I still did what a good Mom would do. Encouraged him to speak to his Dad and to remember that it wasn't about him, but between his Dad and me. Took a couple of months to get him to a point where he would go see his Dad. After he started visiting him, his attitude started changing towards me. He was withdrawing. Our relationship changed drastically over the next few weeks. When I would ask him what was wrong, he finally started asking questions of me. Is it true you have been having an affair for years with XXXXX? Is it true that you are suing Dad for everything and alamoney to the point he can't even buy food? Is it true that for years you would tell him you hated him when we were not around? Is it true you hated him so badly that you told him not to come to our games?
It was that bad. There was not one thing his Dad was telling him that was true. None of it. His Father was trying to justify what he did to his Son and make himself out to be the victim. I denied it all and answered his questions but my Ex was constantly telling him all of this, all the way through our divorce and after. My approach was not to lie to him, but not to drag him into the middle. His Father's approach was to lie through his teeth and make me look bad so he could be the victim. He had lied to him so well, that every thing I ever did to protect them from their Father's uncaring, selfish ways, backfired and made sense when my Ex explained it was my doing why he didn't do this, didn't do that.
Was that because my OS and I didn't have a close relationship? No, it was because here was a man now, that had been starved for his Father's attention and affection as a boy, that was now hearing from this man everything he wanted to hear his entire life. That his Father truly loved him and wanted to be there for him, but his Mother stopped it.
Now, I didn't even bring DIL into the picture but she was there too, telling my OS that "See, I told you your Mother was this way. I told you she has treated me badly and now here's proof that she's been doing it the entire time to your Dad." And on and on. Yes, during the questionings by my Son, she was there, smirking and putting her two-cents in.
So, in my situation, I can honestly say we had a close relationship and it is totally possible for someone or multiple someones to break it. Do I think it is totally over? No, I don't...but that's because I have let go of him and realized that until he decides later in life, that Dad is full of it, I will not put him in that tug-of-war between parents, nor his wife. He has to come to these realizations on his own, and then maybe I will agree we have only been stretched. He may never come to those realizations and then the relationship will remain broken.
And it's ok that we don't have the same opinions on this. I just know it's possible, in my world. It's not been possible in yours. That's why we are all unique.
Pooh, that sounds like serious parental alienation to me. I understand what you're saying about DILs involvement in that time but I don't think she has the power to do something like that, she definitely aided and abetted though.
After dealing with OS, DIL, SD, Ex. ExMIL and Mother of GC, I now believe anything is possible when any title, if you have an agenda.
What a selfish man who would steal from his own son. He took away his son's true parent relationship and replaced it with a false one merely because it suited his ego. I think that might qualify as true evil. I'm so sorry for what Ex did to OS, and I'm so, so sorry for what he did to you, Pooh.
Thanks Sassy. I am a firm believer in Karma, and I think someday, it will bite him and next time, I will not be the one picking up the pieces for him.
Pooh- I had a relationship like that with my own mother for quite a long time. When my parents divorced (neither of the were ever involved in any thing I did...kudos to you) it took a toll on the relationship with my mom. When you said
QuoteOS was very comforting and supportive of me
it brought a flash of memories I had with my own mother.
(Please note that this is my own story and I am in no way telling you that you did something wrong.) My DM and I stopped talking to one another because her need to be consoled and comforted during their divorce was too much on me and I began to hate her. Here I was, 14 years old, and neither one of my parents could give a living hoot about how I was feeling because they were so absorbed in their own emotions. However, it was my DM's emotional neediness that put me over the edge with her. She leaned on me way too much and cried and all that jazz. My DAD on the other hand just left me alone about it. They were both too busy worrying about themselves, but the fact that I was having to be the strong one for my own mom when I was going through this divorce too, made me really angry. My world had completely changed and I was pretty much on my own from that time on.
BUT.....We are fine now. It did take quite a few years to have a relationship with her, tho. I don't think it is over for you and your son, he is just going to need a lot of time. I'm sure going to college during this divorce was alot harder on him that you even realized. His father could probably see that vulnerability in him and took advantage of it. He may have even felt like you wouldn't talk to him about it all (and his dad obviously was) and may not have realized that you were trying to keep him out of the tug or war with his DAD. How long has it been?
I totally believe you because I have friends that have done that to their kids. They have treated their Sons like fill-in male companionship and the daughters have become the Mothers. I'm sorry you were made to feel that way. That couldn't have been easy for you.
When I say comforting and supportive, he would come in after class some nights and sit down, ask how my day was and such for a few minutes. He would bring a movie in every couple of weeks that he knew I wanted to see and drop it on the table with a note that said, knew you wanted to see this. Just small stuff that showed he cared that I was hurting. Yes, I know it was very hard on both of them, as YS had 3 months until he graduated high school. OS was working, going to school and I know, dating DIL and worried about me too let along his own relationship with his Father. They had to be as stressed as I was.
I have been divorced for 3 1/2 years.
Pooh, I'm sure you're aware of this, but another thing about lying liars who lie (credit to Al Franken), is, they lie. Not just about pooh bears, but about OSs too. Whether its called karma or just the natural progression of the life of a liar, OS will catch Ex in lies that OS knows for a fact aren't true. Sooner or later. Lies to or about DIL, YS or OS himself. I predict there will be an AHA moment, when OS hears the lies about himself fall from his dad's lips. Something will click or start to turn. Pieces that didn't quite make sense before, or were ascribed to must be a fuzzy detail that was misunderstood, will get towards their place. The more Ex lies with impunity, the braver he gets with the next lie. Tick tick boom.
I believe that but have never heard of lying liars who lie....Lol. That's good.
All of that makes my impasse with my eldest son seem pretty tame. He just ordered a sweet, smart, beautiful, wonderful mother and got me by mistake.
Kirk, in turn probably didn't put in an order and just assumed I would be OK. However, he thinks I am sweet, smart, beautiful and wonderful! LOL!
Quote from: Doe on November 03, 2011, 07:39:19 AM
FWIW, both our parents gave us grief at times, but my husband and I never allowed that to come in between our marriage. We got married when we were older, maybe that was the difference. We were already far away from the parents and had no doubts about how their opinions affected our lives.
I think it's the boundaries thing again. You protect your home and family from toxic people and situations.
I could not agree more. I have been in both roles myself and know for a fact that each is painful and life altering. Memories and scars of being the DIL to an overbearing and drama inducing MIL (even though she meant well in her own way) are what has molded the MIL I have tried to be to both DS's first and second wives. With the first DIL it was never her that caused the issues or was jealous of me. It was DS. He was never comfortable with how close I was to his first wife and acted as if he felt threatened by our ability to communicate. The one he's with now gives the impression that she'd be happier if DS's life started with her. A mother and son by a first marriage is not something she is willing to accept into "their family".
Through the years I have tried to keep a sense of humor rather than climb the walls! LOL I have joked that had I known what was to come I would have simply bought a puppy back in 1975!! ;)
Momof2 I have much respect for the way you have handled your situation. I would trade my DIL in for one like you in a heartbeat!! :)
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Pooh, whenever I read about your XDH & DIL's influencing your DS I feel sad for you & your kids. Your story is similar to mine with my DF & SM. DF felt very angry about how we felt about the way he'd treated my mom and us kids, so when he remarried he changed history as he presented the story to SM. She used it as an excuse to cut me and my sib off, which she wanted to do anyway, and has influenced how her AC/GC/friends view us as well. There is nothing I can do to make it right, since everything I do is filtered through their incorrect lenses now.
I agree with Sassy that karma will catch up and eventually your OS will see through it; not sure there's time for my DF, though (he's very old.) My SM's shenanigans have already been spotted by her SIL, so perhaps there's hope there.
"This has been debated here before and it all boils down to everyone suffers. There is no DIL suffers more, MIL suffers more...everyone suffers. I can say that because I have been on both sides."
This was the quote I was trying to reply to earlier :-[
I loved that about the puppy! When I made a remark to my grown sons about my dogs meaning so much to me that they were like "family"...they joked with me that they had no idea they would ever be so easy to replace. And I said..."Hey, if it doesn't work out, I can return them to the shelter! Great improvement! 8)
That and you never have to listen to "What's for dinner?" followed by a groan...... ;D
Quote from: Pooh on November 17, 2011, 07:33:32 AM
That and you never have to listen to "What's for dinner?" followed by a groan...... ;D
I don't know about that - my kitty-girl is very eloquent in her opinions about the food I serve her, both by "cussing" at me in cat, and in her facial expressions. (Attempting to bury the whole dish by scratching on the floor is the pinnacle of disapproval for her.) Her nickname isn't "Bratty Catty" for nothing, lol!
LOL Elsie
I've been making homemade food for the dogs lately, seems a lot better for them all. Sylvia the youngest pup hates carrots with a passion (and dang, she's a pug, they eat *everything*) Now she's taken to eaten everything else in her bowl but the carrots and hides the bowl with all the carrots in it under the couch.
Even if they are finicky eaters they don't bring DIL's into your life that are jealous of you! ;)