Just wanted to give my DIL credit where it is due. Although she has caused me and her husband unbelievable and unnecessary hardship, she has allowed us to continue a form of getting together, in tact with her and the Grandkids in spite of it.
It's not what I ever wanted and I envy the people who don't have this, I have to give her credit where it is due. She has not called our relationship off, which has saved our sanity.
Actually, if you just let her do what she wants to do, it's okay. If she wants to give you a day, then, I have chosen to make that day a good one. I know it means a lot to our son. It means the world to us. It could be a lot worse. I'm getting to where I'm just grateful for what is.....even if it's a little bit.
It's funny what you'll settle for....I had big dreams.
it's really strange what we'll settle for, isn't it? I had such high hopes for our family! There was no reason not to.
I was re-reading your first post where you said your other son was dating a nice girl. I was wondering how that was going? I hope this one goes great for you.
Me, too - I hope the new one is a winner for you, Anna!
About the dreams for a large, rollicking, loving family: I had to mourn the death of that dream, just like I've had to mourn the death of the "perfect child" when we realized DD was disabled; the death of childhood/motherhood when DS went off to college and then married; the death of my sense of self when I turned 50 and realized I'd put a lot of time and energy into childrearing and almost none into myself, and knowing I was not likely to find myself doing the amazing things I'd dreamed when I was younger (globetrotting photjournalist, for example, although you never know!) Yeah, I knew better and still made the choices I made.
Maybe that's why this DIL drama hits so hard - I gave my kids my life, my health, my time, etc. etc. and now I'm old and in the way. I knew I'd passed on the glamorous career or whatever, but I never thought as a mom I'd be treated as obsolete.
Sorry! I was going to carry on with the credit to DIL topic and I got sidetracked (I have ADD, if you haven't already guessed.) My DIL was very pleasant on Christmas...if she was just acting, she did a great job ;) DS was so happy! Reason enough, DILs, to put some effort into getting along with your MIL and FIL - if you love your DH, it's worth it.
Good Morning Ladies...
Glad to hear all went well for you Chickie...
and yes, isn't it sad, that we have to take what we can get..
because I know so many other Inlaws who get along famously, it's sad. My DIL has accomplished her reasoning, whatever that is, for not talking to me at all now...so be it...but, she will teach my GD to hate me as well...I can see it already when we talk....haven't seen her now for 3 years...can you imagine, being that angry with someone, that you would want to keep your daughter away from them, just to hurt them?
Talked to my son and GD via webcam before Christmas, and my DIL walked across the kitchen just to let me know she was there, and would not come over and say hello...? Sheesh...how hateful....
Anna, me to, I hope the new one is wonderful...you might really be surprised...and if she is, the other one might just follow suit...you never know...she might be really embarrassed or even jealous...that you get along so well....so good luck...will keep you in my prayers....
Quote from: penstamen on December 27, 2009, 10:23:55 PM
Sorry! I was going to carry on with the credit to DIL topic and I got sidetracked (I have ADD, if you haven't already guessed.) My DIL was very pleasant on Christmas...if she was just acting, she did a great job ;) DS was so happy! Reason enough, DILs, to put some effort into getting along with your MIL and FIL - if you love your DH, it's worth it.
Hi There penstamen...
I think everyone would agree...we all get carried away, we hurt, so, please don't feel badly or apologize...big hugs to ya...
Creme, I am so sad that your DIL did that!! There is no reason whatsoever for her to pile on this hurt towards you by walking across the room like that, which I understand because I've been done the same way! No reason to pile on!
The only reason I can see is that she is hell bent on making sure you know she's in charge. Of course, she's in charge...duh...they all are. I just don't know any MIL/DIL relationships where it is a good one, like you say. I'm sure there are some but I don't know who they are! Judging from the hate sites, I can see it's a rarity.
Hi Chickie
Personally, I think she did that to let me know, I'm here, but I hate you and I'm not going to come over and say hello...it could also be a little guilt...she is so stubborn, she must carry this thing thru...and also, it's been what she's been trying to do ever since the beginning. In the beginning when this all started...I actually knew what was going on but was in denial...didn't want to believe it...and feared what could happen...she told my son, that I was jealous of her, that she was taking him away from me....but, candidly, I don't believe my son buys that at all...perhaps in the very beginning b/c he didn't want to believe she was creating this, but in his soul of souls, I do believe he knows the truth...he knows me, and knows I'm not needy or clingy...and that I encouraged him to go foreward with his life, travel, experience, join the military...as well as when he told me he was going to propose, I was extactic...
Chickie, she's a very insecure person, with a lot of carry over from her childhood...she wants him all to herself...and by her actions towards me...she definately is jealous of the fact that we were so close....plus, she doesn't understand it, b/c her mother was never close to her...perhaps she envies it as well....but, she's probably also, embarrassed...but to a narcissistic person...to admit that she was wrong, is almost a never. How interferring could I have been anyway, they live a plane ride away...I'm sure she knows I know she was throwing stuff away I sent my GD...so in her own mind, she feels, "How could I forgive her? She couldn't...she either likes you or she does't...there is no inbetween, she doesn't know what allowance or tollerance means...to be nice, even though you don't care for someone...but to hate someone like she hates me, is a sin....to actually make up this soap opera tradgity to keep my son and I away from each other is to me, sick...she needs help....and if she doesn't get it, I fear, down the road, her daughter and her will have huge problems....I've read up on narcissists and how they're children relate to them....her controlling, manipulative nature, will some day get the best of her...
My son left the day after Christmas to return to Afghanistan, he is on his way to kubol now...and then onto his base...if something, God forbid, should happen to him...well, I tell you with my whole heart, I don't think I could ever forgive her? She is the reason he went there...she refuses to get a full time job and wants the best of everything...and he wants so to make her happy....I do believe part of him feels so sorry that she didn't have a great childhood and he's trying to make up for that and of couse, she knows it and takes advantage of him. Like his friend said, he was always to nice of a guy. I pray he will be safe, and ask you all to keep him in your prayers.
oh, and one more thing, one of the young girls I work with knows the whole story...she becomes livid at both my DIL and son, and says, "that so in so, is just looking to make up reasons to keep you away from them...she pretends to my son, to be the victim...like the comment I made about my GD being a tom boy...my young friend got so angry...and said...she is nuts and your son is buying this...she is just looking for stuff to pin on you..." then she added "and believe me, she can't find much...she must tell him a lot of lies"
She must continue this soap opera tragidy, that I'm the most God awful person...she cannot allow anyone not even herself to know she has ownership in this. It's all my fault. And she tells my son that I hate her?????????
I really believe that most DIL's who act like this come from very dysfunctional homes?
I have a suggestion...
no matter what good comes from Your DIL, don't let your guard down meaning, never ever have any expectations of them...b/c just when you think everything is going to be fine, she might throw a curve ball at you. Remember, my DIL pretended to tollerate me in front of her husband. Say, your having a dinner and you've invited them...don't allow yourself to be crushed if at the last minute they don't show...or if you expect her to call you...don't expect anything of her...ever...b/c when we do that, it hurts when they don't follow thru...and we become once again, upset and depressed....
I won't let my guard down again, ever, Creme. I've had my heart broken too many times before.
My friend's MIL came into town and we had breakfast together this morning, all three of us. She is very close to my friend.
She told of her other DIL who just now is becoming nicer to her!!! This is after years and years and years of heartache. This MIL is lovely and much, much older than I am so I think maybe when they are young, they don't know what they're doing. (hoping that's it)
Although, my friend, who is also her DIL has always been wonderful to her.
It's hard to let your guard down when you've been hurt so many times. But what happens when people accuse you of making things worse by having your guard up in the first place? It sounds like all of you have tried in the beginning but after being hurt so many times, have had to adopt this position to protect yourself. There's nothing wrong with that - and maybe it helps to have a little bit of a reality check when someone outside of the situation (creme's co-worker, anna's BIL) notices the bad behavior and says something about it...
I don't want to let my guard down anymore either. But now my BF thinks I need to open myself up MORE to his mother in case she decides to have a relationship. I don't know if I can do that though. Is there a way to show tolerance (real respect isn't possible anymore) without letting down your guard?
Quote from: isitme? on December 28, 2009, 08:59:59 AM
I don't want to let my guard down anymore either. But now my BF thinks I need to open myself up MORE to his mother in case she decides to have a relationship.
That is totally unreasonable. Totally.
Isitme....I changed in my reaction to her. She has not changed but I have. I decided to let whatever happened, happen and whatever said, be said. I decided to let everything go and focus on her good points.
Yes, she's hurt me deeply. I decided for her sake, the GChildren and my son's sake, to let it go and let love shine from my face. It worked a miracle. She was more relaxed and although nothing was said between us, everything was said by my face! I wish I could explain it better but I can't.
It was adoration that I decided to have in my face. I practiced it over and over until I felt it in my heart. I did adore her. I do adore her.
I am not an idiot so I know that she might say or do something that wounds me again but I will go back to loving her and not my usual pattern of hurt and retreat. I was shocked that this helped so much. Who can resist being loved?
2chickiebaby, that's admirable. That shows REAL genuine love on your part. It's true, sometimes you get what you receive and maybe in some cases by showing love, you get it back. But do you feel like expressing this love to your DIL was letting your guard down in anyway? Because that's how I would feel about my FMIL.
I don't know if the same thing will work with my FMIL. I don't think she understands what real "love" is. To me, love is acceptance. To her, I think love is control. I feel bad because maybe this woman has never experienced real love in her life. What she is demanding of me however, is not really love but submission - what she calls respect. I don't think anyone wins in this scenario. It will cause me to lose even more faith and respect in my BF for forcing me in this situation, I may keep quiet in order to show "token" respect but in my heart I would have nothing but contempt for a family that chooses this over real love and acceptance. I don't want to live with this hate in my heart though. I think MILs are better at learning how to let go of the hate.
Yes, Isitme, my guard was totally down. She could have trampled on me if she wanted to. I decided it let her do what she wanted to do to me. She had nothing to do, though, there was nothing to do anything with.
I was my funny self with the kids and they cracked up and although I didn't look at her to see if it was okay to laugh and cut up with them, I decided to do it anyway.
I gave her no reason to feel any way toward me. I looked at her with love in my heart and she was almost cute in her way of doing things. She kind of ordered us around and I obeyed. What did it hurt me to be ordered around for 2 days? Two days out of many....not bad at all.
Son was so happy...I could see it. The kids were dolls and loved it all. She has to have control. It's okay with me. I think she was shocked when I hugged her and told her how much I loved being there. I whispered, "I love you" and she whispered it back.
I"m happy for you too chickie! you deserve that love and I know how hard you have worked to make it happen.
I don't know if I'm strong enough to do that with my FMIL though. I just can't open myself up to her in that same way right now. Maybe it's a power dynamic thing, maybe it's because I don't feel like my BF and I are yet on the same page about how to handle the situation, or maybe it's because I'm just too stubborn.. I don't know. But I'm glad you had this experience and I hope many more positive ones for you in the future!
Chickie, that is wonderful...absolutely wonderful....
I suppose I'm talking thru my experience when I said, have no expecations...you see, whenever they invited me down to visit them again...I thought, she probably changed and it would slowly get better....but it never did...the moment my son wasn't around, she'd be huffy and snap at me...and talked very little.
Respect has to be earned....but when you first meet someone, you start off with respect...it just comes naturally...but when someone does things to hurt you....like erase email messages...erase phone messages...when they lie about things you did, to justify they're behavior towards you to your son...it is very difficult to trust again...at least for me it is...and that would be with anyone. To be perfectly honest, if my DIL were a co-worker, we wouldn't be friends...I would avoid her like the plauge. Root canal would be much more desirable...just kidding...but...this woman has not changed in 12 years...it's never going to happen. So, as for me, if my DIL would start to change, I would be overjoyed and welcome it and her, but, it would take me a long time to heal and trust...and I would never have expectations...which is a good thing.
To all of you...I just want to say that I have learned that NO ONE can resist being adored!! NO ONE can resist being loved. I could cry too.
Creme, my DIL has not changed. I have!!
Chickie
How would you get her to talk to you?
I have been so worried since I wrote about my success with DIL that you all would think that I've arrived. I haven't!!
I imagine there are so many things left to come; I know there are. Some I won't be prepared for and I know it will kill me emotionally when they happen.
I just got thru one tiny portion of the season with no incidences!! I am overjoyed. I have not arrived, though.
Creme, I didn't try to get her to talk to me. I never engaged her or tried with her. I focused on the kids and when I did look at her, I looked at her in love. I can't explain it. I let her boss me around and did what she said to do. I know it doesn't make any sense.....
no, it does make sense...it really does...and I do hope it continues forever...maybe as she grows older it will get better? I hope so...and even if you had arrived...we'd all be so happy for you...believe me! Hugs
I am so glad you understand....I didn't mean it was over.
The music for me, is hard to hear and honestly, I get tired of the carols too because they start them so early!! I realize this is for the retailers but boy! they get old by the time Christmas comes.
Think Spring!!!
I know you still have worries about the future - but I'm glad you had the experience you did with your DIL and hope this is the start to something better for all of you.
Can I ask? How did you feel when you let her boss your around? I know you were focusing on your grandchildren and all the positive things (which is great!). But how did it feel to know that you were giving in to someone like that? I ask because the more I think about it, the more I feel I just couldn't respect myself if I let someone who treated me so horribly boss me around. I believe in respecting my elders and listening them....but in my experience that is usually based on the fact that I am getting a certain level of respect and love back. I trust those sorts of people. I have no problems whatsoever with letting someone like that "boss" me around a little bit. But when someone hurts you so much and then turns around and blames YOU for not doing more and goes off on irrational, crazy sounding rants that rewrite history and reality.....and when you know this is a person who has ruined all her relationships because she mistakes controlling people for love... how can you just give in to someone like that without letting it hurt you more? I feel like it would just be setting a precedent with my FMIL - to say "go ahead and treat me as you wish. I will still love you and let you walk all over me." I can't do that and I don't think it's right. But I dont' know what the right thing to do is - I'm still trying to figure it out.
Isitme.....for me, it's a matter of having a family. I don't get to be around her all the time. She confided in us and the other DIL and son, that she has had bouts of severe depression. I was shocked at her telling us this. That isn't what made the difference, though. It wouldn't have mattered that she opened up to us, what mattered was that I went with a different attitude.
I was determined to make this a good Christmas and a good memory. She can behave as she wants to....not me. MILs don't have that luxury. She doesn't realize that I have struggled all my life just to live and survive. Well, she does because I told her once when she was so sweet to me early on.
I don't feel badly about myself that she bossed me around. She needs that in her life for some reason and actually, she was not as bad about it as she once was. My attitude was all that mattered. I have to have a family and I want to belong more than I want my life. She holds the key. All DILs hold the key.
I don't want them to look back when I'm gone and have bad memories of me.
That's wonderful and I'm so glad for you Chickie.
I just dont' feel the same though - I want a family but more importantly, I want a HEALTHY family. I dont' know if it is possible to do this by letting my BF's family have all the control though. BF desperately wants a happy family but I think he's created a fantasy of what his family is like that is very far from the truth. If I leave him because I can't handle his mom anymore, I don't know if he will ever get that happy family he dreams of :(
I understand your point about how MILs often feel that the DILs have all the power (over son, over grandchildren) but I just don't feel that way. I feel like I have NO power whatsoever. None. She is the one with the power because at the end of the day, I would rather leave this relationship then come between her and her son. She knows this and I think part of her will resist having any relationship with me because she wants to drive me away. She just might succeed yet. Then again, I think the main reason we have problems forming a relationship is because she doesn't have a real relationship with anyone - not her husband, not her sons, not her family... no one. She is just that type of a person who drives everyone away from her.
The best I have been able to do is try not to let her have any power over my emotions - not to let her hurt me or make me feel bad when she says mean things. But it's still hard. Especially when I"m told I just need to keep trying. I feel powerless - like I've tried my best to do right by my BF and his family despite all they've put me through - I tried to accept so much and support so much but at the end of the day I may end up with nothing because everyone just expects me to go along with the dysfunctional ride and I just can't be in a family like that.
I'm not for certain what it is she says...do you mind giving me an example? We're all dysfunctional in some way. If she says really mean things to you, then I understand it's not worth it.
Just one thing my MIL did to me....fresh on my mind after all these years!! They were walking, son and mother in the back yard. They had their arms around each other....I, desperately wanting to belong! wrapped my arm around his waist too, thinking how great it was to be walking with a family. His arm around her waist and mine around his.
HOLY MOLY!!! She said, "don't worry, honey, I'm not going to take him away from you!!!"
I was broken hearted!! I didn't say anything at all but I was crushed.
I think I posted many accounts on other threads - she has said things like I'm not normal and that I don't respect her and don't try hard enough to have a relationship with her. This was the last time I spoke to her on the phone and she got mad because her son called her and asked her to speak to me and then she started yelling "Do you only talk to me when my son tells you to" and then she hung up on me. She also says things like I will die because my parents died young. That I am wasting my life as a college professor because money is the only thing that matters in this world, not doing good by trying to help people and not having satisfaction in life. She has tried to tell me that she has heard mean gossip about my sister (who she has never met) but I stopped her there. In short, she is constantly telling me and everyone else that I am not good enough for her family.
She is also so mean to her own son - she brags about him to the outside world to make herself look good but belittles him to his face. She tells him that he has wasted his life, that he should be earning more money, that he is no good. When he was growing up, I don't think he was allowed to have friends - they are a clannish family who don't accept outsiders or anyone with a different outlook - no extended family or anything. When he doesn't do exactly as she says, she cries, has tantrum and tells him she thinks she is going to die or is having a heart attack. He knows she is emotionally manipulating him but still feels bad and I understand why. If anyone in my family acted like that I would feel terrible. But no one in my family is this way. We may have our fights but we all treat each other with mutual respect and love. That's what I hoped to see in this family but right now all I see is dysfunction. No one really talks to each other in this family. No one tells anyone the truth. When my BF talks to his brother it is just about cars or movies or how much money his brother is making or how rich his wife is - they are having a baby next month, my BF is going to be an uncle for the first time and he seems totally unconcerned. Sometimes I think it's just a guy thing but there is a lot of other things I've seen that raise many red flags... My BF lies to his parents all the time which disappoints me a lot. In order to avoid an argument, he will make things up like what day he was working, where he has been etc. He's not a teenager sneaking out of the house anymore - he's 39!!! He moved into my building a few months ago - not with me, but down the hall. It took him two months to tell his parents that he moved (only because I insisted) and is scared that one day they will find out it is the same building as me. He didn't even tell his brother until recently. Is this family? I feel like the only way my BF can get along with his mother is to pretend that he is 10 years old again and just sit at home with her and pretend I don't exist. What kind of mother wants that for her child?
Quote from: 2chickiebaby on December 28, 2009, 01:03:57 PM
Just one thing my MIL did to me....fresh on my mind after all these years!! They were walking, son and mother in the back yard. They had their arms around each other....I, desperately wanting to belong! wrapped my arm around his waist too, thinking how great it was to be walking with a family. His arm around her waist and mine around his.
HOLY MOLY!!! She said, "don't worry, honey, I'm not going to take him away from you!!!"
I was broken hearted!! I didn't say anything at all but I was crushed.
Why did you feel crushed by this? Is it because you felt rejected by her? Maybe by saying that she was trying to reassure you?
I know what you mean - since I lost my parents at a young age and most of my family lives abroad, I thought it would be great to feel like part of a family again....but that's not the case sadly :(
Quote from: isitme? on December 28, 2009, 01:11:12 PM
I think I posted many accounts on other threads - she has said things like I'm not normal and that I don't respect her and don't try hard enough to have a relationship with her. This was the last time I spoke to her on the phone and she got mad because her son called her and asked her to speak to me and then she started yelling "Do you only talk to me when my son tells you to" and then she hung up on me. She also says things like I will die because my parents died young. That I am wasting my life as a college professor because money is the only thing that matters in this world, not doing good and not having satisfaction in life. She has tried to tell me that she has heard mean gossip about my sister (who she has never met) but I stopped her there. In short, she is constantly telling me and everyone else that I am not good enough for her family.
She is also so mean to her own son - she brags about him to the outside world to make herself look good but belittles him to his face. She tells him that he has wasted his life, that he should be earning more money, that he is no good. When he doesn't do exactly as she says, she cries, has tantrum and tells him she thinks she is going to die. He knows she is emotionally manipulating him but still feels bad and I understand why. If anyone in my family acted like that I would feel terrible. But no one in my family is this way. We may have our fights but we all treat each other with mutual respect and love. That's what I hoped to see in this family but right now all I see is dysfunction. No one really talks to each other in this family. No one tells anyone the truth. When my BF talks to his brother it is just about cars or movies or how much money his brother is making or how rich his wife is - they are having a baby next month, my BF is going to be an uncle for the first time and he seems totally unconcerned. Sometimes I think it's just a guy thing but there is a lot of other things I've seen that raise many red flags... My BF lies to his parents all the time which disappoints me a lot. In order to avoid an argument, he will make things up like what day he was working, where he has been etc. He's not a teenager sneaking out of the house anymore - he's 39!!! He moved into my building a few months ago - not with me, but down the hall. It took him two months to tell his parents that he moved (only because I insisted) and is scared that one day they will find out it is the same building as me. He didn't even tell his brother until recently. Is this family? I feel like the only way my BF can get along with his mother is to pretend that he is 10 years old again and just sit at home with her and pretend I don't exist. What kind of mother wants that for her child?
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Oh boy! The dynamics of families! So hard! I know how hard this is for an outsider to understand. Good Lord, it was for me. My DH's sister was such a nut that he spent his entire growing up life bringing her home after parties, drunk, so his parents wouldn't get upset. He devoted his life to this. He was the perfect son. I guess in all families there is a perfect child...he was it.
I can only relate things that happened to me regarding your situation. One time I was doing something at a club/event and because his mom did not belong to this club, I didn't invite her to come with me to hear me.
The next day we went over there. She wouldn't speak to me. I asked her if something was wrong? She and his sister said, "you know very well what's wrong!"
I didn't. I had no idea. I only know now. She proceeded to rip me up one side and down another. How dare I not invite them!!! I was crushed (that's the way I react, crushed). I ran and got in the car. I cried and sobbed and sobbed and his sister came outside and washed her car right beside me. Me sobbing in plain sight. She whistled and sang while she washed it and it seemed like she glared at me too.
My DH got in the car and we drove off. He asked me if I was sure I couldn't have invited them? I was crushed that he'd ask me. They weren't members of this group so I had no reason to invite them and no authority to do it!
Oy...my poor DH...caught in the middle. His Mother thought she wasn't good enough to be invited to this. NOT THE TRUTH!!! I know the reason she felt this way but why me? Why did she have to do that to me?
I never held that against her and we went on.....it's not worth it. My DH is a good man and it's not worth it. She's gone now so it's over. People are screwballs...they are. Every one of us is a screwball in our own way. There's a DIL and Mother out there who are worse than ours!!!!
She wasn't trying to reassure me.....I know what she meant and it crushed me. I wanted to belong and she wanted to have her say. Yes, I felt rejected, totally. She was going to be family to me.
yes, it's hard for the man who gets stuck in the middle but chickie what do you think I should do? Should I just send my BF back to his mother because I don't want to put up with this anymore? I feel like it would just be worse for him because then he wouldn't have anyone?
That story about your MIL made me sad - obviously you never meant to hurt her feelings but she just wasn't going to give you the chance to explain that. I think showing your hurt feelings can sometimes work against you with people like this - they want to know that they've hurt you. They feel good about it. And by showing them what makes you feel bad, you are just telling them how to do it again. I'm still working out how to deal with my FMIL and hopefully I'll find some way to do it with tolerance (true respect is no longer an option like I"ve said before) - but no matter what, I will not let her know how hurt I am by her words. I dont' want to give her that satisfaction. She has already used it against me. My BF passed on some things that hurt my feelings and she twisted it around to show how I wasn't a normal family person and how it disrespected her.
Quote from: 2chickiebaby on December 28, 2009, 01:33:54 PM
She wasn't trying to reassure me.....I know what she meant and it crushed me. I wanted to belong and she wanted to have her say. Yes, I felt rejected, totally. She was going to be family to me.
That's awful. Rejection always hurts but especially when you were hoping to have a good relationship and know you did your best. What I hate is how it makes you question yourself. I find myself thinking - did I do enough? did I say the wrong thing? am I not good enough? Lately I've just been trying to get a reality check that it's not me. I hope you were eventually able to do that with your MIL too. It sounds like you're getting there with your DIL too!
here's the bottom line.....if your BF is worth keeping, keep him. If he isn't, don't. Does that make sense? It's him who matters...she will be gone oneday. He will still be there.
Now, if you keep him, his Mom comes with the package. She will be who she is and from what I've been through with my DILs, only a real change in your attitude will work. If you're not able to do that, it won't.
I'm telling you...this world is full of some real bad characters, mostly good people but some are terrible. When you find someone who is good, deep down, they are worth a second look. I don't know what the answer is because you're thinking that he should act the way you think he should. No one ever does. If they acted like I think they should act, we'd all be doing great ;D
Only you can know if you love him enough to keep him. Don't be hard on yourself....just let loose and let go of your notions of how people should behave. They won't change. It seems like you're feeling like you're not important enough to him. I think you should know that.....do you feel like you are?
sometimes I feel like I'm not that important - but sometimes I worry that I'm TOO important - he tells me he doens't feel like he's close to anyone else in his life and that makes me sad. If I left him, I would still have my family, but I feel like he would just have this "token" family that never really accepts him or knows who he truly is and appreciates him for the good man that he is
I know his mom will come with the package if we stay together - and right now I love him too much to walk away from the relationship. So I"m trying to figure out how to deal with her. What parts of my attitude should change... what SHOULDNT I accept and how should I respond to mean and hurtful things? When she starts yelling at me on the phone, I want to be able to say "I'm sorry you feel this way but if you are going to speak to me like this, I cant' continue this conversation. Good day madame".. Is that unreasonable? Right now my BF just tells me to tell her I respect her and want a relationship and to keep quiet otherwise.....that's what they all do because otherwise all hell breaks loose...
We're going to keep working on this with a counselor. The counselor has suggested to him that his mother is abusive but I think he's having a hard time accepting that. This is something I am trying to stay out of because it dones't really involve me - it's about the relationship he has with his family and his mother outside of me. I'm just a convenient scapegoat for now.....He has a fantasy idea of how his mom should be and how his family is.... but it makes me sad because it's so far from reality that trying to act out the fantasy only makes things worse....
If the counselor says his Mother is abusive, that's what it is, I guess. I know how much he wants a family, even if it's not what you think it should be. I know he would love for you to love her. It's not for her, it's for him. I hope he doesn't think you're his savior, though.
I know how much it hurts to have someone say hurtful things to you. I've been there. DO NOT SAY, MADAME!!!!!! OH MY LORD!!
I guess just listen to the counselor. What I did with my DIL was to go and not say anything about past hurts. It was wonderful!!! Nothing has to be said....things don't really have to be ironed out. Just let it go and start over. You don't need to say, "let's start over". Just start over.
If you call her, just tell her about your day....would that work? Think of something that happened that day and tell her. Not right now but at some point.
My Close DIL loves to give me the scoop...she thrives on the scoop in town. I do too so I listen...we have that in common. Find something in common with her if you can if you choose to stay.
Quote from: 2chickiebaby on December 28, 2009, 02:21:46 PM
If the counselor says his Mother is abusive, that's what it is, I guess. I know how much he wants a family, even if it's not what you think it should be. I know he would love for you to love her. It's not for her, it's for him. I hope he doesn't think you're his savior, though.
If isitme's fmil weren't abusive it might be a different story. Even if you love someone deeply, you should not have to be abused for their sake. So they can entertain some fantasy that is likely never to happen. To ask someone to take abuse just because they love you is abusive in and of itself. To excuse abuse because "that is just the way she is" or "that's my mom, you have to deal with her" is horrible. It makes the victim accountable for the abusers behavior.
If all that isitme has posted is the gospel...I don't think she should EVER FOR ANY REASON go near her fmil. And, certainly, someone that abusive should never be around infants or small children unsupervised. The way the woman sounds, I wouldn't trust her with a pet.
If isitme marries into this without there being some resolution, she's setting herself up for years and years and years of abuse and trauma. Her bf has already proven that he won't be supportive of her and expects her to dive under the bus for his abusive mother. Love isn't worth having to be abused.
***And, yes, everything I've posted in this post can be turned around to apply to the way some dil's treat their mil's.
Then I guess that's her answer.....
What worries me is that isitme's bf may be abusive and it hasn't reared it's ugly head yet.
He might be, Creme....I have no way of knowing. I only know what I've lived through. My DIL was very abusive to me and I know it. If I hadn't gone back in with a new heart, I would have missed out on everything. I can't live like that anymore.
I'm sure there will be days again when I'm being treated badly but I'm glad I did what I did. I am easily hurt. Many times I can't think past the hurt.
thanks for the input ladies. I know that issue keeps on coming up - my BF is in no way abusive to me. I have even pointed out the whole "abuse by proxy" thing to him when I was upset. But I think he's so conditioned to his mom's behavior that he just can't see it as abuse and while he acknowledges that her behavior is unacceptable, he is still hoping that she will change. I want to believe the best for his sake (and hers)....but I think expecting her to change is just going to lead to a lot of disappointment. Any thoughts on this one? Is there a way for us to compromise when he seems to be holding out for change in his mom and I want to learn how to distance myself from what I see to be the status quo? I know a lot of MILs are against the idea that a DIL should ever distance herself from her in-laws - with the assumption being that over time the son and grandchildren would also distance themselves....what do you think in this case?
I'm really glad I am trying to sort this out before we decide to get married and certainly before we have children involved. Glitterati - you're right, I would be worried about subjecting children to this type of behavior unless they were always supervised. However listening to some of the MILs cases on this forum have really made me more sensitive to the feelings grandparents have towards their grandchildren. But I think all of you really love your grandchildren, try to respect your DILs as parents, and are functioning rational adults. I dont' know if I feel the same way about my FMIL though - I'm not there yet but I'm already worried...
I think cremebrulee you are right to continue to point out that I should be careful of BF in case he too becomes abusive. I have been on the lookout for this from day one and nothing except these issues with his mother have been red flags. He is a kind, sweet, generous guy who deserves to be treated better by his family. If we do end up getting married, I can't wait till he meets my family because I know they will treat him with the respect and love he should be getting. And I hope he will feel like he finally has the loving supportive family he's always dreamed about through HIS in-laws... That being said, I appreciate the advice and will continue to think about things - I'm so glad we've started counseling and I'm very thankful for all of you ladies here too. You all make me think about a lot of things that I might not have otherwise, and also provide a little bit of a reality check for me too. :)
Quote from: isitme? on December 28, 2009, 04:15:29 PM
I would be worried about subjecting children to this type of behavior unless they were always supervised. However listening to some of the MILs cases on this forum have really made me more sensitive to the feelings grandparents have towards their grandchildren.
If she's abusive...and you've actually had a counselor verify that she is, her feelings in regards to grandchildren DON'T matter--at all. Those who are abusive to others neither deserve nor should get sympathy. They should be given a wide berth so as to minimize damage.
She's not the same as say Anna--who while I don't agree with everything she says, seems like a very caring grandmother.
I think that if isitme and her BF do get married her future MIL will one day adore isitme and show her how much she loves her. She will want to start over and make it right between them.
Hopefully
RedRose,
I think so too!!! She will adore Isitme.....
Isitme....just a little background of when son and DIL were going to get married after the first call off by son. She agreed to counseling with a counselor who I know and have for years.
Son told me this: (OH!!, wish he hadn't) DIL told the counselor that she didn't like me.
The counselor said, "oh, that's normal" Really? Not like me? Are you freakin kidding me? You know me, counselor. I know you too and I know what kind of family you have. I am not going to go around telling people, though.
I've never felt the same about that counselor since. She knows us and knows us well. She knows what kind of people we are and to say that, is way beyond the bounds of what's right.
She also told one of our son's friends who got a divorce about our friends: "Oh, I know that family and they are totally dysfunctional". Again, really? Them? No, their kids come home to see them and yours don't. (sorry, it just makes me mad!) They don't know everything but they think they do.
Chickie,
How great is that !!!
You are right.. there isn't a heart that can't be touched. I sure hope things move forward for you.
I absolutely agree, Mom....I have high hopes but not false hopes. I will continue to do what I did and sometimes I'll fail miserably but I'll sure try.
Chickie, I hope your relationship with her continues to bloom and nothing but good happens in the future...you deserve it.....
hugs
Creme
I hope it continutes too, Creme....I have no way of knowing the future and today I woke up with less faith that it would.....I get weak and afraid....but thank you!
Thanks for the comments ladies. I don't know how optimistic I feel about my FMIL ever coming to really love me if we get married - I'm a little worried that things will only continue to get worse because then we really will be connected by a family bond. But I'm willing to hope that things can improve. Let's see how our counseling goes. Chickie - it sounds like the counselor you had was very unprofessional. Your son shouldn't have told you anything that was said during his sessions and if the counselor knew you personally, they probably weren't in an objective position to handle the situation. Then again, I don't know what really happened. I'm hoping that counseling will help us to figure things out - not start blaming anyone or saying negative things but to work out the reality of the situation.
I really hope things continue to go well with your and your DIL though. I wish my FMIL was more open to insight the way you have been. You've actually tried and have gotten a positive result back. I"m not as hopeful in my case, but let's see... good luck!
Isitme....the counselor is unprofessional. I can't believe that in 2 incidences she said what she said. She shouldn't have taken either case because she knows both of us.
I don't understand why she did.
Hang in there, Isitme....please!!
You're absolutely right - unprofessional is the word for it. I don't know why she did that either... she should have refused and then given your son a referral to someone else...
Well, hopefully our counselor is more professional - she doesn't know either of us at all so that's a start. so far we've had one joint beginning session and then each of us had an individual session. Our next joint session is tonight - I'm interested to see what she will say after speaking to each of us individually.. I"m trying to hang in there, I really am... but if this is an abusive situation, I'm not sure what I can do.
I think it's so good that you're exploring all the potential problems, Isitme....so good. None of us knew to do that in our day.
It's hard for me to see your situation with your FMIL as abusive because I see it from my side. I'm sure it is but knowing me and the other people I know in person, it seems like she is just needy or insecure. Needing more attention than you're able to give?
Views of everything has changed so much these days. It's almost like everything is dissected and analyzed but I don't blame you. Life is too hard anyway so you need to make it as easy as possible.
Thanks chickie,
I'm doing my best. I know sometimes things seem different from how they were before... but at the end of the day, we are all people and how different is that? At first I thought the same as you - maybe this woman was just sad that her son was grown up and needed more attention. As time went on and I interacted with her more and witnessed her son interact with her, I began to think there was more to it than that and just being nice wasn't going to help. If she was just somewhat needy or insecure but overall a healthy person, she would not have acted in the way she did. That's not the kind of behavior that someone who is healthy would show..
I don't want to label this situation as abusive myself because I feel I am too close to the situation to be objective. But many of the women on this forum have pointed this out and our counselor suggested it as well.. i"m going to see what she says to us both today..
The way you describe your DIL and how many others have described theirs, also sounds like abusive personalities.... but none of us can say.. we can only try to help each other here...but in terms of what is really wrong with these toxic people - that is for the professionals to determine.... I"m hoping for the best...
I understand....hoping for the best!!!
I can't help but wonder what kind of nut I'd be labeled?? I hope not. My heart is pure.
We're all a little bit nutty in our own way - that's what makes us human! None of us are perfect - we all make mistakes and are capable of behaving badly from time to time.. the thing is you have to be willing to acknowledge this. If someone tells you you have done something wrong, even if you don't agree, you should be willing to think about it. I think you have done that from what I've seen...
People with personality disorders can NEVER acknowledge they have done something wrong. The problem is always with other people, never with them. They have no insight into their own behaviors and just blame everyone around them. Maybe this is because of their extreme insecurity... maybe it's because they are out of touch with reality... I don't really know but I've been doing a lot of reading on personality disorders lately. What I've read fits my FMIL to a T. But I'm hoping I'm wrong... That's what the counselor is for - to give us an outside and professional perspective on this.
I remember a while ago I recommended a book called Emotional Vampires. I still think you might enjoy reading it if you get a chance. I'd like to know what you think about it..
Well, that leaves me out. My DH says that I admit too much and take the blame all the time when it belongs elsewhere. I know I have problems, though. I'm filled with them, otherwise I wouldn't be so knocked off center when someone hurts me...or, I imagine they've hurt me.
For instance, CDIL never admits to any faults...I've really never seen anything like it, ever. She will not say, "I'm sorry". She just can't. Her control issues are unbelievable. She will be intentionally late or not show up at all unless it's her idea. That's what kills me about the way she does the other DIL.
If it is her idea to do or go wherever, then she will go. If not, she won't. She will do what I said above. Delay and avoid. You must cater to CDIL all the time...wait on her, pamper her and adore her. If you don't, she retreats. I've fallen for it just to get to be a part of their lives. And, she never does anything for anyone else. People cater to her.
I'm going to get that book.....I hope it helps. Do you understand what type of personality she is???
We all have our faults chickie - but you're right in that if you can admit that you are not perfect and recognize some of your flaws (or accept them when your DH tells you), then you're probably not an "emotional vampire"....
Your DIL sounds a lot like my MIL - I think I've said that before. The control thing... I dont' know - part of what I've been reading suggests that this is a narcissitic personality disorder. People can just be really controlling though.
The Vampire book divides up personalities into different types: Anti-Social Vampires, Histrionic Vampires, Narcissistic Vampires, Obsessive-Compulsive Vampires, Paranoid Vampires. The author makes a good point that many personalities are a combination of these factors... and that ALL of us to some degree have some of these qualities... For example, when I read the book, I could totally see how I had some elements of being obsessive compulsive - but not so many to be considered a vampire. I've also been able to recognize ALOT of narcissitic qualities in people I know - some to the point of having a disorder and some in just an annoying way.
If you get a chance to read the book, I"d really like to know your thoughts. Maybe it will help you identify the type of personality your DIL has and suggest ways of tryign to deal with her. I feel like the book has really helped me in interpersonal relationships in general.
I will get the book...it scares me for some reason. If I know I've been used and abused, it will just kill me but at least I will know what I'm up against.
CDIL is beautiful, a real live (our state) winner. She was the queen of her family...all focus was on her, like she was the prize for being good parents. She got everything she ever wanted. Underneath, however, she is very insecure, which keeps me catering to her??? ???
don't be scared. It might hurt to to find out you've been used or abused... I think many of us here have been. But like you said, then maybe you will know what you are up against.... let me know how it goes!
I just ordered it, Isitme....I will let you know!! Thank you!
OY!!
Hooray! I can't tell you how many people I have recommended this book to! I think it helps us understand ourselves almost as much as it helps us understand other people who bring a lot of negativity into our lives. I really hope you find this book as helpful as I have!!!! :)
I hope so too!! YAY!! I guess it will be here in about 3 days....
:)
Go to the drug store or grocery store and see the movie stars without makeup in the magazines..!!
I feel so much better now! They look just like us!! In fact, we're prettier.
another book which I suggest is STOP THINKING AND START LIVING I practised and practised what the book says and it works. I can not remember the author
Good idea, Greeneyes...!! Stop thinking for me would be excellent. Hard to do but really good for me!
Chickie, sweetie, I don't know if this is going to make any sense...but sometimes, we take things, hurtful things, from people for so many many years...that we become used to being sad...used to being treated badly...then when something good happens, it feels out of place...it doesn't feel right...yanno? Don't fear or be afraid of living in the moment of happiness...it's all good Chickie...
Isitme is so totally right about emotional vampires...they will suck the life right out of you...don't allow it...continue to be accomodating and forgiving...Chickie...if we didn't have it hard...we wouldn't be strong women...and we're strong women...are we not?
My DIL is the very same way as yours...it must be her way, when she says so and where she says so...she doesn't care if she makes everyone else late...she doesn't care where you would like to go...it's got to be her decission and her idea...otherwise she won't go...but I don't believe it's about our DIL's behavior that upsets us, as much as we wonder what our Dear Sons lives are like...we wonder what kind of life they must be living? And that is what makes us sad?
I don't know, I just want to make you feel better or help you understand your feelings...I'm probably way off base...I dunno, but just know I understand and do care.....
Love you honey
Creme
Thank you, Creme!! Thank you so much.....I promise you, what you said helped. It did. I don't know what a lasting feeling good feels like. I guess it doesn't feel right to me. Other people are so happy with their families and their kids adore them!! Either that, or I'm not seeing the bad part.
My DIL does what she wants to do only. Son is the same way...I raised it. It turned out that way and I didn't realize he (it) was that selfish. They are two of a kind. (I'm talking about CDIL here)
I copied the narcissistic toxic people and it fits her to a tee. She is virtually every one of those things and so is he!! DDIL is not like that....she is just odd but in her own way, she's at least coming from a place of honesty.
I wish she wanted us in her life...I'd miss the closeness of CDIL. Course, she has done nothing but use me. Why do people use other people? I don't realize they're using me till I'm worn out from it. CDIL has worn me out. They both have.
darn kids.
people only use or abuse the people who allow them to
Chickie, try and remember, every single family on the face of this earth has they're own family politics...(bad times) but they work thru it...and/or are mature enough to realize, we can't all think alike...except those who are narcissistic, who are unable to comprehend that others think and feel differently then they do...and if you don't think and feel like they do, they take it as a personal attack against they're characters...
Chickie...Your not or never will be alone in this...one day, hopefully, we'll all get it right....
okay, thank you, Creme....I raised a narcissist, I think. Heck, I don't know.....
if you have raised a narcissis like I have you have to save yourself. They honestly have no care for anyone but themselves. But until we accept was is we can not change, they will never change, we have to change our own thinking.
I do not believe children should stay with anyone who has a drinking problem. I also dont think your DIL is taking the child off you I believe she probably would want her mother to be like you and is trying to have some sort of relationship with her. I dont think she is thinking of you at all she probably is just wanting her mothers love. I dont believe she is punishing you, have you had a talk to her about your feelings?
I have found that trying to talk to them doesn't work...they only become more entrenched in their thinking. Plus, if we try to show our side, our hearts to them, they take it as being needy and passive agressive and trying to control them or whatever else the new jargon of the day is.
All I can think of Anna is to be grateful for the times you do see them
I am refusing to be blackmailed by my D and SIL.
Anna,
My dil ( with sons approval, of course ) chose to use my little Grandson as a tool against me too.. I am not kidding.. I would cry myself to sleep and thought I would die. I finally decided that I could not allow them to destroy my whole life so gradually I began to heal.
It still hurts me but I no longer grieve. I think, more than anything, I am amazed that all this happened to us ( I have still never figured that out ).
After yrs. of blaming dil ( which she was at fault too ) I started to realize that the real guilty one was our son b/c he not only allowed his wife to treat us like she did.. he helped her !!! He used to threaten me that he wouldn't come over and I couldn't see our little grandson and so on and so forth.
I know I am on this forum pouring my heart out BUT I really have came to accept that I was not as important to son as I once thought I was and DIL does not want me in their lives and lastly, I will never know my grandson like I wanted to but I guess life isn't fair. I agree with greeneyes, I believe in what we give is what we get and they will ( sadly ) have to face what I have already been through... I feel so sad for them. ( they have a son who will have a wife someday ).
Chickie,
I know what you mean about money .. these kids now days will sell out for money in a heartbeat and throw love out the door.
I have decided to try hard to not TRY so hard to fit into their lives. I have tried everything. As long as they have movies like, "Monster in Law" that perpetuates the stereotype of us, it's hopeless.
Sites on line devoted to the hatred of MILs make it doubly impossible for us to get anywhere in their lives. It's utterly stunning what the girls say about their MILs. The main thing is that when their DH says 'his family' and is including his Mom and Dad, they take that as a threat against them. They are the only family he is supposed to have. We are considered, "relatives".
Everything his Mother says is wrong...everything. Maybe some things are but EVERYTHING?
I remember when Luise put this site up and she and I were the only members but now we have 160 or so members. This site started on Mothers Day of this year. So, we're getting our words out there. We will surpass the hate sites, I'm sure of it. Love always wins in the end. Maybe they will make a movie about the 'Other Side', who knows?
I don't think our sons hate us, how could they? Why should they? The difference is the whispering in our son's ear all the time about how bad we are. How in the world can you resist hearing for the first time how bad your Mom is? Bad? No, just human. Wanted a family, how bad could that be?
the wheels of time what goes around comes around
I think they are the ones who lose out, if they lose us.
Anna,
I have said the very same thing.. " Who really is the loser in all this ? "
I would give anything to have my mother back and I do believe Mom is the backbone of the family.. my home was never the same after mom died.
Have you read my post about my brother and what happened with all that ? I know that in the end.. we all lose and I know too that a son will, eventually, resent his wife for this.
Like I said, I know my son is the true one to fault here but, in the beginning he did follow his wifes lead to just toss me out with the trash.
the only losers are our children and their children. Do not forget that. We may be hurt but in the long term we are not the losers
Hi isit me...yes, indeed, it certainly does help...these are people who have known me for years...and all of my life...do I have faults, heck yeah...did I contribute to this problem with my DIL...probably so...especially in the beginning, when it started...instead of claming up like a little frightened child...I should have sat down with the both of them right there and discussed the issue with them...
QuoteI don't want to let my guard down anymore either. But now my BF thinks I need to open myself up MORE to his mother in case she decides to have a relationship. I don't know if I can do that though. Is there a way to show tolerance (real respect isn't possible anymore) without letting down your guard?
I really believe you both need to discuss these wishes your BF wants you to do with your counselor...and please if you woudl, come back and let us know what she/he says...that is, if you want to...
Quote from: isitme? on December 28, 2009, 08:59:59 AM
It's hard to let your guard down when you've been hurt so many times. But what happens when people accuse you of making things worse by having your guard up in the first place? It sounds like all of you have tried in the beginning but after being hurt so many times, have had to adopt this position to protect yourself. There's nothing wrong with that - and maybe it helps to have a little bit of a reality check when someone outside of the situation (creme's co-worker, anna's BIL) notices the bad behavior and says something about it...
I don't want to let my guard down anymore either. But now my BF thinks I need to open myself up MORE to his mother in case she decides to have a relationship. I don't know if I can do that though. Is there a way to show tolerance (real respect isn't possible anymore) without letting down your guard?
Quote from: greeneyes100 on January 03, 2010, 05:08:16 AM
the only losers are our children and their children. Do not forget that. We may be hurt but in the long term we are not the losers
Your absolutely right...and any person who claims to be a counselor would advise this, and not promote hate...contempt, or the desire to hit back or retrubution...yanno, this is exactly the way wars are started....
Quote from: isitme? on December 28, 2009, 08:59:59 AM
It's hard to let your guard down when you've been hurt so many times. But what happens when people accuse you of making things worse by having your guard up in the first place? It sounds like all of you have tried in the beginning but after being hurt so many times, have had to adopt this position to protect yourself. There's nothing wrong with that - and maybe it helps to have a little bit of a reality check when someone outside of the situation (creme's co-worker, anna's BIL) notices the bad behavior and says something about it...
I don't want to let my guard down anymore either. But now my BF thinks I need to open myself up MORE to his mother in case she decides to have a relationship. I don't know if I can do that though. Is there a way to show tolerance (real respect isn't possible anymore) without letting down your guard?
Quote from: mom2 on January 03, 2010, 05:05:27 AM
I think they are the ones who lose out, if they lose us.
Anna,
I have said the very same thing.. " Who really is the loser in all this ? "
I would give anything to have my mother back and I do believe Mom is the backbone of the family.. my home was never the same after mom died.
Have you read my post about my brother and what happened with all that ? I know that in the end.. we all lose and I know too that a son will, eventually, resent his wife for this.
Like I said, I know my son is the true one to fault here but, in the beginning he did follow his wifes lead to just toss me out with the trash.
The one time that I tried speaking to my DIL about this very same situation...I said to her, can you imagine how much this is hurting DS? She became livid and yelled, "It's not about him, it's about you and me"????? Can you imagine her not being able to see even that far? She didn't care about his feelings, what she cared about was to continue this war...which is within herself...sad...
Have any of you noticed the same thing? They don't seem to care about the feelings of they're husbands, it's all about winning...not feelings and the hurts that have occurred....and some of them, the extreme cases, even use they're children to continue this war?
They all seem to follow they're wives...if they didn't there would be yelling and screaming...I don't know if you read my post, which explained...I have a 62 year old friend, who just divorced his wife a year ago...he was living this kind of life, for all of his life, until his kids grew up and left home...she estranged him from his mother and immediate family....I asked him why he allowed it...he said, to keep peace, he knew if he didn't follow her lead, he wouldn't be able to sleep at night and she would go onand on about it for months...and he didn't want his children to hear it...or be broght up in a home where there was yelling and screaming...have you ever noticed, that these men, who are living this kind of life, work all they can? Why? Yes, for the money, but also, to get away from it...they can't fight her, b/c they won't win! When I started sharing stories with my male friend, he told me, your DIL sounds exactly like my wife...exactly, and how many of our DIL's are the same. It is a pattern...like a spouce who indulges in excessive abusive, alcholol or is untrue to they're spouces...What our DIL's or your MIL's are actually doing, is a kind of infidelity to they're loved ones, it is a very selfish and unhealthy way to live...and many times...even thoughit's my son living it...and I do worry abouthim...I say, thank God I'm not living like that...and thank God, I'm not around her...