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I would like to start a new topic concerning my daughter-in-law.  I had inadvertently butted into a different topic without realizing that this was not acceptable as the subject was very close to my heart. 

My son and I have always had what I would consider a normal relationship.  In high school there were power struggles, in college he learned to take responsibility of his own life.  I'm not overbearing and he is not a mamas boy, while in college he met his future wife.  My daughter-in-law was a little standoffish and pushy, but  I thought our relationship would warm one day. 

Upon the birth of their first child my daughter-in-law seemed to become pushier, more demanding, more belittling of her husband.  I noticed at first that nothing he did was right, if he helped her wash the dishes she complained of the order in which he washed, it always seemed to be little things that just added up.  But after a few years issues are still being tossed onto the pile.  As I said in another post if we plan on me visiting all of a sudden my daughter-in-law gets huffy and informs her husband that I am not there for her so she will not prepare for my visit.  He is left to clean the house, make sure there are clean sheets, he said that he even makes up the bed for my visit, meanwhile my daughter-in-law points and demands.  Stated elsewhere, when he has worked long hours he has been forced to choose between cleaning and seeing me or not getting to visit with me at all.

One time I booked a hotel room thinking I found the perfect solution only to be told that I felt that her house was not good enough for me.  My daughter-in-law is dissatisfied with every move I make be it helping to pick up after dinner or offering to take my granddaughter to the park.  If she were here today I'm sure her story would look very familiar to some as I'm sure my every breath irritates her to no end.

My question is how do I work with this situation?   I would like to hear from other daughter-in-laws who simply can't stand their own mother-in-laws based on silly unimportant issues.  When my daughter-in-law smugly tells me that son better jump do I congratulate her?  He confided in me not long ago and told me that while he loves her and especially his daughter that he has been made to feel less and less like a man.  He  said that his wife is so pushy that he just buckles to keep peace.  I believe he might be falling out of love with her, or that she is pushing him out of love with her.  You hate to see a marriage end but this woman is determined to keep me out of their lives based on convenience and to keep her husband on a leash.

Ginger - You more or less described our ex-DIL.  Eventually, our son divorced her after 15 years (actually she left our son and both children).  He told me that he tried so hard so keep the peace and gave her everything she wanted; it did not work.  But, after 15 years, the "bond" between son and mother/father is not as strong as it was - too much "water under the bridge" so to say.  We were accused, vilified, yelled at, ignored and lied about and to as well as hated.

I don't know what to tell you except that anything you say or do will be construed as "interference".  Even an invitation to our son's family for Christmas dinner was "interfering" and I should not expect our son and grandchildren to attend (after all, they had another "family" and did not need us).  Honestly, the best thing you can do is look after yourself.  You cannot "save" your son - he will need to do that himself.  I found that when we were not available to "blame", then our son was more able to see "who" was to blame.  If so, it will get worse for him before he takes action (but the ball is in his court). 

I believe that our ex DIL suffers from a personality disorder and so logic does not exist for her.  I believe that our ex DIL is incapable of feeling empathy or concern for others (she feels only for herself; even her children did not count) and thus, there was nothing one could say or do to help her comprehend another's postion.  I suspect your DIL also has the same extreme self-centeredness and, if so, you will never have any form of a relationship with her (and really, neither will your son).

So, how do you work with the situation?  You let them come to you.  You don't phone, e-mail, or visit.  You don't expect anything from them or offer assistance unless asked.  When speaking, I've heard the "medium chill" is the appropriate method of conversation - you reply politely and basically say nothing but also give them no opportunity for criticism or negative comment.  Again, if he is "falling out of love with her", then your best recourse is to "back off - way off" (unless he comes to you).  As my husband says "if you give someone enough rope, they will eventually hang themselves".  I hope you do not feel that I have  been too aggressive in this answer; it's just what I would have done 15 years ago (knowing what I know now).  But, please do take care of yourself; if your son needs you in a year or two, you need to be healthy (both mentally and physically).  Perhaps, your situation is not as severe as mine.  I sure hope so.  All the best ....

I think all of that was excellent advice from jdtm.  I do understand ginger, as my DIL is in many ways as you are describing yours.  She is very demanding, self-centered and if it's not about her...then it means nothing to her.  I used to see the frustration and sadness in my OS's eyes and it would tear me apart.  But then he would not call or come visit because she didn't like me, so I would also get angry at him for not taking a stand.  I went back and forth between thinking maybe he just didn't like me and this was just his wishes.  I have done a ton of soul searching over the last couple of years, and regardless why, it is his wishes that he is following.  I think he doesn't want to cause an issue at home and he does it to keep the peace and not have to deal with it, but he is still doing it. 

One of the hardest things I had to come to term with is that no matter what she does, no matter how much she maybe trying to influence him, the bottom line is he has a choice.  He could choose to keep our relationship alive, to visit by himself and to tell her that he loved her, but he was going to see his family. 

I'm very sorry that your son is being treated that way, and very sorry that you are too.  It's hard to believe that the close relationships we once shared with our children can change so dramatically.  I expected change, but not a total turn-a-bout.  Until he decides that he wants to change the rules in his house, I'm afraid all you can do is your best.

So, so, sorry for these situations.  I know there are really unfair and controlling dils and mils both, and I think we are in agreement here; it's good to be able to tell your story w/o being judged as a "meanie" dil OR mil.

I think that's why we can help each other whether we are dils or mils, in fact, bc of that.

Ginger, you said:
"He confided in me not long ago and told me that while he loves her and especially his daughter that he has been made to feel less and less like a man.  He  said that his wife is so pushy that he just buckles to keep peace."

It seems your son is still wanting to be in contact w you.  I think the best advice you can give him is to see if his wife will go to counseling, to see if she can see what is happening to the love he had for her.  Other than that, you probably can't do much to help.  If he comes to you with these problems, you can't really give advice except to get help.  Otherwise you would either be pushing him to leave her or to continue to take this abuse.

What do you all think?  (In the case of the sons who aren't seeing their FOO bc of their wives, the other two posters, I think, have it down.....

Ginger, I have a set of circumstances that are somewhat similar to yours.  Long story short a friend of mine told me last year, "Nothing you do will ever be right".  So after that I decided to do nothing for them, and keep myself happy.  I won't go into all the details, there are lots on the site, but my advice is the same.  Let them come to you, and have no expectations for them.

I am no longer in touch with my son, his wedding is coming up and I may not be there, but these hostilities had a profound effect on my health while I let them happen.

My future DIL has what I call the "Princess" syndrome.  As long as the world is revolving around her and everyone is doing everything to please her, exactly as she wishes, she's agreeable.  However, when that doesn't happen, she's verbally, financially and emotionally abuse to the point that I suspect that she might drive my son to suicide or work him into an early grave in an effort to pay for all her "necessities".

My son came to me after the engagement because she turned into the Princess overnight (literally) and he had some misgivings about their marriage.  I advised him not to marry anyone he didn't want to marry.  It's a lot easier to get in than it is to get out but apparently the marriage is going to take place.

Perhaps one day we'll be in touch again, but not while "the Princess" rules the roost and calls the shots, demeaning and humiliating him and me in particular.  I suspect that MILs can be a handy dandy scapegoat for some young DILs.  You get to extract your revenge on your husband via his mother.  That's 2 for 1.  I've decided to move out of the picture and allow her to find another scapegoat, and perhaps she may perceive that in driving me away she's "won". 

Ginger, it's a tough slog, it's not what I planned for, hoped for, worked for and the values that I thought I was instilling in him.  As someone told me last year "That's life", and she was kind enough not to say "Suck it up, buttercup".

i think your choices boil down to what you wish to tolerate in your life because of your son's choice of spouse, but you can count on the fact that anything you tell him will be repeated to her, so just a word to the wise, I found out about that one the hard way.

It is the treatment of my son that I find most concerning and I do understand about not interfering, I am the one who is being approached by my son.  I'm saddened by the fact that even here I am reading conflicting messages. In one message Scoop is being praised for her demands because it is her mother-in-law we are talking about, while in the case of my son his wife is making the same demands and belittling him to the point of making him look like a weak failure and I'm being advised to almost give up temporarily on my relationship with my son but that my daughter-in-law is wrong. 

It is possible that I may be the only person he has left to confide in as his wife has effectively removed his friends from his life as well as herself from his list of friends.  I can't help but to feel that this may be part of the problem, she is no longer a friend to him. Yes they have a marriage, they have a precious daughter who is learning how to whip a man into shape at a tender age.  What will this do to my granddaughter will she learn that husbands and wives draw sides and stand their grounds based on who's side of the family is coming into play?  Is this how young women define their independence and find strength? 

Unlike Scoop my daughter-in-law does not hold a job, the inability to have her home company ready is a choice she is making.  With my daughter-in-law this isn't an issue of having her home ready as much as every step I take will irritate this young lady and then I believe she takes out her frustrations on the one and only person that is there for her which is her husband.  Will my granddaughter follow in her mother's footsteps?

Hi Ginger .........If your son is unwilling to change his life ,there  isn't a lot you can do I'm afraid  . These ladies have been through the same situation  and have learned to cope in the way they've described .You don't want to add fuel to her fire . Your son is the key figure here ,if he is prepared to take this treatment ,as hard as it is you have to stand back .You are his forum to vent ,and be glad he does ,but only he can stop the rot .?  .................I have  to say in my case my future DIL  and I eventually had a showdown , and now we get  along .Each situation is different ,so there are no hard and fast rules .I hope you can relate to others experiences and take comfort that you are not alone .

Ginger - there is one crucial point that has a huge bearing on the outcome of any relationship - that is why you will get conflicting "stories".  And that point is her mental stability.  If she suffers from a personality disorder (and the stats for this issue has been estimated to be between 5-10%), then there will be no relationship, ever.  Whether you "interfere" or not is irrelevant; you will be perceived as such.  A common element in those with personality disorders is to isolate the "loved one" from family, friends and neighbours.  By your own words, it appears that your DIL has been successful in already doing this.  Lying, manipulation, blaming and being devoid of empathy are four other common traits.  It took me years to realize our ex DIL had major mental health issues.

Stress seems to exacerbate mental health behaviours and in our case, the birth of the children set off fireworks.  She was unable to take care of a home as well as care for others.  It appears that your DIL may also react to the stress from the extra "burden" of raising a child  If she does suffer from a personality disorder (and from what you have written, it appears so), she will be incapable of managing a home as well as raising a child.  To help her fragile ego, she will "make your son look like a weak failure" - your words - and it will be everyone else's fault.

No one wants you to give up your relationship with your son, granddaughter, or DIL - far from it.  What we're saying is that we expect you will be "forced" out of their lives.  If your son still comes to you with advice and your DIL "allows" this or he does not "report" to her, then you are very lucky.  Our son did not have the strength to go against his wife; hopefully, your son will never get to this point.  But, as several have already stated, it is up to your son to "save his family and himself"; you will not be able to do it.  The fact you have searched and found this site says a lot.

As to whether your granddaughter will follow in her mother's footsteps?  We have two grandchildren - one who "behaves" like her mother and one who does not.  Mental health issues are partly genetic and partly environmental.  So, no one knows - and frankly, little can prevent it.  There is a mantra many of us repeat daily - "I did not cause this, I can not control this, I can not cure this".  So sorry .....

Quote from: ginger on June 20, 2011, 09:00:03 PM
I'm saddened by the fact that even here I am reading conflicting messages.

Everyone's story here is diverse and different, but with many ringing similarities in some.  What you are seeing as conflicting messages right now are actually the same messages.  It's about support and setting personal boundaries.  When you have people that are treating you badly, it doesn't matter if it's a DIL or MIL, you can only decide what you will tolerate and what you will not.  It's impossible for us to not want to see our DC treated badly and impossible for us to not hurt for them, but they have to help themselves.  All we can do is set our own boundaries. 

Keys also said something that has rang true for most of us.  When our DS's came to us and vented, asked for advice or just talked to us about their relationship, we thought we were doing the right thing by listening, giving advice and "helping".  It backfired on me too, just like Key's.  Everything I said to DS went straight back to DIL.   I think he was doing it not to hurt me, or cause problems with her and I, but it was a defense mechanism on his part.  He was trying to rally against her wishes at times and probably simply stated, "I talked to Mom and she said that I needed to start telling you that I didn't want your Mother here everyday and telling me what to do."  I think he was doing it so he felt like someone agreed with him and instead of saying "I don't..." he probably said things starting with "Mom agrees...".    (And yes, that one happened to me, true story.  My advice when he was complaining about it was to have a talk with DIL and let her know it bothered him.)

So even though I trusted my DS and we had always shared everything about our lives with each other, it ended up causing me major problems when he was going back and repeating things to her.  Have you thought about if your DS is going back and repeating things?

Dear Ginger, I would like to make a brief reply to your post.  I am usually on the 'Adult Children' Issue forums, as this is the biggest chunk of my suffering, but the other side to the coin is the MIL issue in my life, but as this relates to a marriage occuring late in life w/o any children to consider, it is not such a major issue but its still painful and one I relate to.   I am ashamed of many of the things that went down between my MIL and myself, but it is what it is and I am able now to be more compassionate to myself, and also to my MIL.   In the end though, it was all about my DS and the necessity for him to rise up and find healthy ways of coping with the situation. My mature age H was, and is, very enmeshed with his M.  I gradually grew to resent his relationship with her, and covertly treated her with contempt because I felt an odd and un-definable jealousy - it just felt like another woman was in my territory.  But at the same time I was intensely suffering with the estrangement from my own DS, and depression was gradually reducing me to a vegetable.  My MIL had no way of understanding what I was going through, and she was so microfocused on her DS that she only wanted his life to flow smoothly, whatever sacrifices she felt I had to make.  Eventually we (MIL and myself) became estranged and my DH carried on his relationship with his FOO w/o me.  This does hurt me at times, esp holidays, but I want H to be happy and keep relationship with his family.  I admit to you though, it took several years and a lot of suffering for it to reach this point.  I think it is possible that we could be reunited, but I have made the decision that the potential is still too strong for conflict to break out again as my MIL hasn't owned any of the responsibility for her part in the problem.  I don't have the strength for any more of this conflict.  I'm wasted from years of depression and stress from my DS.  ---All of us have multiple issues we are facing in our lives and those of us who are able to feel empathy and to give and take can grow through them, whether we are MIL or DIL, I love this forum because it just nurtures whoever comes for some nurturing and support, and even enlightenment.  This forum has helped me learn however that some personality disorders are so self absorbed that they are unable or unwilling to experience empathy and therefore can't be open to reason.  I don't think this means never, but it takes a lot of life experiences to rock this.  I hope you can find peace with this and step away.  Maybe your DS needs the growing pains to become much stronger in the long run and this is only a season in his life and yours, not the whole.  be at peace and know that you have not caused this conflict.

First thing - Did you guys know that Stay-At-Home-Moms (SAHM's) sometimes consider their "job" as being the Mom, not being the housekeeper?  That the 'mothering' is what takes up 7.5 hrs a day, just like a paying job, and that, just like a WOHM (work outside the home Mom), the housekeeping is considered shared chores, to be done AFTER regular working hours.  Ginger, maybe your DIL feels this way?  Seriously, I've even seen a SAHMom post "You don't clean toilets at your job do you?"  Eeek!  It's a different way of looking at the situation, that's for sure.

Second thing - A friend of mine once reminded me that sometimes, we see or hear about the fight between the couple, but we don't usually see or hear about the apology or the 'making up' part.  The way she put it was "On the next Oprah - Man Takes Wife Out For Nice Dinner".  That really stuck with me.

Unfortunately, your DS has negotiated his relationship with his wife.  He must be getting something out of it, or else he would change it or he would leave.  Sometimes it's easier to see, sometimes it's not.

Have you talked to your DS about ways that you can make things easier?  Like for me, more notice from the IL's *would* make things better, right off the bat.

I am learning from the postings here.  My dil also dislikes (hates?) us, won't let us into her house (even though ds does most of the cleaning anyway), interprets everything we do in the most negative way possible (I think she has an anti-mil/fil war belt filled with notches), and needs to be the center of attention at every gathering.  Princess.  Yes, that describes it perfectly.  DS exists to make enough money to satisfy her expensive needs, to clean and repair the house and to cook dinner for her (even though she gets home from work 1-2 hours earlier than he).

At least ds doesn't leave us out.  He calls us a handful of times each year (always when dil is out of town or he is not with her).  We are lucky that this year he started traveling more for his job, and so the calls are more frequent.  He has also found ways to be with us without her.  Usually this happens when we agree to meet in another city. 

Our gifts to dil are never good enough, and never acknowledged either.  We keep it up because ds expects it.  Once, when I asked ds what dil would like for a birthday present, ds suggested to me that a 400-euro designer purse would satisfy her.  She didn't get it, because designer bags are not in my budget.  His idea of a gift for her is a couple of days at one of the most expensive spas in europe.  Honestly, I don't know how he affords such gifts, because right now he is tearing out walls and doing the cleanup & repair after their basement filled with 1 meter of water in this year's spring rains.  He says he can't afford to hire someone to do it. 

I have learned not to discuss dil with ds.  I think that's one of the keys to keeping a relationship with him.  DH and I don't know what to hope for.  DS is a caretaker, and he dearly loves his little doll, the princess.  We want the marriage to succeed because he would be devastated if it failed.  Yet it's so hard to sit back and watch someone take advantage of his generous nature.

One mother told her adult, married son who was being controlled by his wife to "man up" and insist on not being bossed around..... now if I told my son that I'd not see him again! bc he is very protective of his wife.  So when she gets bossy and irritable, I say not a word and sometimes ds hears this and snaps back at her; so sometimes she sees she can go only so far in being "the boss."

I have just learned that although son isn't abused by wife, he is rather controlled, but that's something I can't get into..... it's their business.  (This isn't nearly as severe as some people's cases stated.)

I do wish ds would "man up" at times in regard to visits w us, etc., but she is quite controlling in this regard and this is not the old fashioned marriage like dh and I have; ds goes a lot further in pleasing his wife and if she is very unhappy in not seeing her FOO instead of us, then he will be unhappy.  (Like I said, opposite of my marriage!)  But there is nothing I can do about it but accept it.  Have already talked w ds and he gets it...... and they are trying to be more equal in visits.....

One thing that sons may realize, maybe subconsciously, is that in telling wife what's what, causing her a lot of unhappiness, if there are children involved, many times the husband will lose contact w his children to some extent; divorce, separation, wife going w children to live w parents...... my son once said, in regard to another couple, that divorce might be possible but if there were children....

So although he wasn't talking about himself, I knew he would step lightly in upsetting wife bc he loves wife and children and won't jeopardize that.

So a lot of things I have let go bc I don't want ds to lose children and dh and I don't want to be denied seeing them either.  So when I get upset over things, I keep saying to myself, "detach, detach, detach!"

Our experience --- and my advice to ginger --- is to back away and not expect anything.  Our relationship with our son improved as soon as he did not have to provide a buffer between his wife and his parents.  I am pretty sure that since dil doesn't have to think about us or interact with us, life is better for ds.

One benefit of backing away, not ever seeing dil, is that I no longer cry at night about her devastating treatment of us.

I think the above posters had some great advice and all I can add, from a DIL perspective, is this.

When I didn't get along with my in-laws, I behaved in the same way as your DIL. If DH's parents were coming to visit, they were HIS problem. Not mine. And vice versa for my family.

Today I've changed this somewhat. We share the responsbilities of entertaining both of our families in our home. However, this is because there is respect and love all around today. Years ago, there wasn't on his side, so our rule, as is the rule it seems in many homes today for young couples, that you tend to your family.

And I see nothing wrong with this if it works for them. Why SHOULD your DIL do the cleaning and preparing for her husbands family when they come to visit? I'm sure when HER family comes she does it for them, and her DH sits back and let's her. But when its his family, its only fair HE do the work. If that's what works for them, nothing wrong with that and I'm saying this in a not to be rude or insulting way but its no one's business but theirs. If he's not used to knowing basic things like - hey, your mom will need clean sheets, etc, then in fact, DIL is HELPING him to ensure your comfort, otherwise you'd end up in a messy room with no clean towels! I hope this makes sense.

Quote from: Scoop on June 21, 2011, 06:23:50 AM
First thing - Did you guys know that Stay-At-Home-Moms (SAHM's) sometimes consider their "job" as being the Mom, not being the housekeeper?  That the 'mothering' is what takes up 7.5 hrs a day, just like a paying job, and that, just like a WOHM (work outside the home Mom), the housekeeping is considered shared chores, to be done AFTER regular working hours.  Ginger, maybe your DIL feels this way?  Seriously, I've even seen a SAHMom post "You don't clean toilets at your job do you?"  Eeek!  It's a different way of looking at the situation, that's for sure.

Second thing - A friend of mine once reminded me that sometimes, we see or hear about the fight between the couple, but we don't usually see or hear about the apology or the 'making up' part.  The way she put it was "On the next Oprah - Man Takes Wife Out For Nice Dinner".  That really stuck with me.

Unfortunately, your DS has negotiated his relationship with his wife.  He must be getting something out of it, or else he would change it or he would leave.  Sometimes it's easier to see, sometimes it's not.

Have you talked to your DS about ways that you can make things easier?  Like for me, more notice from the IL's *would* make things better, right off the bat.

Wow!!  I must say I'm very proud of myself, my mother, my grandmother.  I was a SAHM until the boys were ready for pre-K at the age of four. I didn't actually consider being their mother and keeping our home clean "my job".  I know it was considered hard work, but to me it was actually one of those "jobs" that I loved to do, so it didn't seem like work.  His job was to work outside the home and provide for us, my job was to work inside the home which included taking care of the kids and keeping our home decent.  I thought that was pretty fair.  I've been working outside the home for 17 years and I still clean the toilet.  I just squirt the blue stuff around it and give it a few swooshes with the toilet brush.  Not really that much of a "eek" at all, lol.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by DS negotiating his relationship with his DW.  Sure he's putting up with it now, but as per the poster he's not pleased with the belittling he's been enduring from DW.  If things don't change he may very well reach his breaking point.  Sadly, if things continue on the path that Ginger describes he may look else where for someone who allows him to "feel like a man".  I imagine that DS loves his DW and his family and is willing to accept the way she makes him feel sometimes because he loves her.  It's also a possiblity that she may upset him by doing x,y,z .....BUT she does A,B,C,D,H,I,J,K,L, M, N, O, P,  so well that he just lets it slide.

I'll tell you this, from the outside looking in, if my MIL could hear the way I talked to my hubby she would probably be thinking the same thing.  Hubby does not get the lovey dovey talk from me.  And he has some nick names that would make you blush....but....at the end of the day, 27 years later (added the 4 years we dated) he is the rhythm of my heart...and he knows this.

The relationship between DS and his DW is their business.  If she says "Jump" and he says "How high?" as his mother you may hate that (I would) but it's not our business. 

Ginger,  LOL, I chuckled when you wrote, "he said that he even makes up the bed" .  GASP!!!  LOL, come on.  Really?  Big deal.  He made up a bed for his mother, LOL.  No!!! Not the bed!! Did he really have to make the bed?  Grounds for divorce, lol. Sorry it just tickled me. 

Okay, Ginger you and I and some of the other MIL's here have the same problem.  Our DS's are involved with pushy, controlling women with bad attitudes.  They don't like us and we don't like them because they don't like us.  We also don't like the way they treat our sons, but we aren't married to them.  It's their choice.  If we push too hard, we risk pushing them BOTH away.  I know it's frustrating and disappointing.  You prepare your child for life, you hope they find love with a wonderful person who will be a positive addition to your life as well and instead they marry people that we never imagined they would pick to spend their lives with.  So dies the dreams for the happy extended family we had been longing for.

We have to face it. Some DIL's just have funky personalities, just like some MIL's do.  She may come around, she may never come around.  Such is the price we pay....

Hugs

 

I'm finding a lot to think about in this thread.

When we love our guests, or are understanding of the love our spouse feels for them, we view our preparatory or other housework as blessing them and our family, IMO. When we resent our guests we see it as a chore. Our DIL has never invited us over, which speaks volumes.

It's hard to be a wonderful, loving, accepting MIL when I've struck out before even being allowed to bat. Knowing how DIL feels about us has affected our lives in unexpected ways. Because she also hates our friends, we dare not invite them for holidays in case DS & DIL decide to show up (we tried doing that once to avoid the dreaded "lonely dinner table" at Thanksgiving one year when DS & DIL could not commit to an ETA - DIL's FOO got first pick, as usual.) I have to make lame excuses to my friends when they express a desire to see DS on his rare visits. I'm now self-conscious and self-critical about everything from housework to career to life choices and beyond. I see everything from her point of view and judge myself accordingly.

DS, DIL & her FOO aren't affected by this in the least, go figure! Life goes on as normal for them, better than ever in fact.

Now, why do I put up with this, you may ask? To see my DS. It's the unfair, unjust way of it...and when I get sick of it I'll speak up. Until then I do whatever I can and keep my feelings to myself.

QuoteNow, why do I put up with this, you may ask? To see my DS. It's the unfair, unjust way of it...and when I get sick of it I'll speak up. Until then I do whatever I can and keep my feelings to myself.

Understand totally.  I did this for over a decade - once, just once when I was asked to babysit, I stated "no".  Our DIL (now ex) never spoke to me again.  She was looking for a way to exclude us and one day when I was unable to babysit, she found it.  Unless you have lived this, you can not understand.  I would never have believed that I would have "lost myself" trying to "save my family" and then being criticized and humiliated and depressed for trying to do so.  Truly some of us are born without a conscience and absence of feelings for others.  But I digress from the topic ....

There was a lot to read here ladies.  How do you highlight the quotes?

Themuffin I was not trying to be humorous and I was not trying to imply that the changing of the bed was the ultimate breaking point.  I was trying to explain how my daughter-in-law is intentionally refusing to do anything and her reasoning is based on the fact that it's his mother so she shouldn't have to.

I understand how hard it is to be a good mother, I too provided a loving home for my children.  Part of teaching your children is through play and more often then not through example.   So my grandchild sees a mother who has time to play tea with her but this same woman does not have time or the ability to say a kind word to her husband.  This is not a case of my daughter-in-law disliking me, she want the world to know that she owns her husband and I do mean owns.  She has let me know she owns him, she has chased off his friends because she owns him, and even her parents know that she owns him. 

If my son was at the point of discussing this with me, (which he was embarrassed) was only because his own wife was to busy justifying her behavior to take the moment away from herself to hear him.  My daughter-in-law any daughter-in-law out there who is proud of her belittlement of a spouse should stop for a moment and realize that they are not only destroying their own relationship but that of their children.  I hope my daughter-in-law never feels the need to venture onto the internet to brag about how she has put her husband in his place.  God knows he gets enough of that message directed at him daily, does he need for others to participate in his embarrassment?

Hi Ginger,

   I'm sorry. I hope I didn't offend you.  Honest.  It just struck me as funny. And Lord knows that sometimes when we are dealing with these issues we need to find some humor.  I understand you weren't trying to be funny and I understand how hurtful this situation can be.  I have a FDIL who is very similar to yours.  So similar in fact its scary.  My FDIL bragged to me that she won, that she had him and I didn't.  You would have thought I was the other woman and not his mother.  To make matters even worst my own DS agreed with her! It was very hurtful and so not funny to me.  I apologize, perhaps it wasn't the time for humor.

   I feel for you. Our children aren't suppose to be with these selfish controlling people.  We aren't suppose to feel uncomfortable in the homes of our children.  We should be loved and welcomed and embraced by their spouses, afterall, aren't we partly responsible for raising the person they love.  I thought I would be loved too, or at least liked.  NEVER did I dream that my son would marry a person who thought me the enemy and treat me with hostility.

   Some days you just have to laugh, Ginger.  I say to myself, "Thank God I don't have to come home to her everyday." Then I chuckle and try to enjoy my day.

   Hugs, it will get better.  If it doesn't change, you'll at least get used to it.
:)

Quote from: ginger on June 21, 2011, 01:05:03 PM
There was a lot to read here ladies.  How do you highlight the quotes?

Ginger, when you see a quote you want to highlight, click on "Quote" in the upper right hand corner of that post.  It will bring up the entire post in between the words "quote" at the beginning and at the end.  You need to erase any part of the quote you don't want to quote, leaving the bracketed quote word on the front and end. (Sorry, couldn't use the actual brackets around "quote" or I would have quoted my own quote!)  Then type what you want to say after the last word {quote}.

Hope that makes sense.  It takes a couple of times to get it and if you hit preview after you do it, it should show you if you are doing it right.

I am glad you put this in your own topic that's not Scoop's 3-weeks holding pattern with 3 days notice for a weekend visit with no arrival or departure times mentioned in advance.  Yours is a totally different topic, with a much different and more serious dynamic.  Expecting a housekeeping partnership with your spouse, or even a room mate, is not disrespectful.  A man being expected to clean up before he invites houseguests, is not a man being punished.  It is a man being expected to contribute to the preparation of activities he planned and he wants to happen.   I would go so far as saying that a partner who expects his partner to do all the heavy lifting for his planned activities would be a rather disrespectful partner.


For your topic, it seems there are two somewhat separate concerns for you.

First, it appears you feel your son is the victim in an emotionally abusive relationship.   You've observed he doesn't have an extensive support system to discuss how he's treated, so he comes to you.   I would suggest to anyone, man or woman, who came to me and said they felt their partner has isolated them, and they're in depression of how much their partner belittles them, that they talk to a licensed and experienced counselor who specializes in helping victims of Domestic Violence.   

Second, you want to know how to have a better relationship with whom you've essentially described as your son's abuser.   If she is an abuser, she will always be looking for an excuse to abuse. It's not about you.  So you can continue to have access to your son while he chooses to remain partnered with whom you see as his abuser, I would just mind p's and q's and limit your expectations to those you can expect from an abuser.

I do not think that I will have to get use to anything.  I do not visit their home often maybe 3 times a year once for 4 days due to a special event, other then that my visits are typically from Saturday to Monday.  My daughter-in-law is not directly offending me she is just determined to show everyone that she has her husband on a tight leash and she is proud of this fact.  If she knew of a website like this one she would be here to brag about how she made him clean the house, how she made him cook the dinners.  All of her sentences would begin with how she made him.

What she doesn't see is how he is growing to resent her, how much he detest her behavior her arrogant attitude and her nasty tongue.  She will never see that she is teaching her own little girl to be just like her.  Is this mental illness? I don't know but her inability to recognize this is no better then refusing to see that she alone is destroying a marriage and a man. 

My son called last night and asked if he could move funds to my account for possibly easy access.  It is clear that their marriage is quickly dissolving.  I will not step in as I have not done so yet, but I would love for her to read this post and see herself in it if only for a moment and change her domineering ways. Any woman who feels that her husband appreciates being constantly chastised and belittled are probably the same women who are quick to cry foul when they feel that others are secretly criticizing them.

Thank you for your kind words Sassy.  I do not believe that my son is a victim of abuse in the sense of domestic violence.  I see him as a victim of a overbearing wife who refuses to see a marriage as a partnership. I am not after a better relationship with my daughter-in-law as much as I would like to see her readjust her thinking when she says this is your mom, your problem.  The fact that she is never happy with any gift, visit, offering leads me to understand that this is her problem and as you said she will not change.

You said "I am glad you put this in your own topic that's not Scoop's 3-weeks holding pattern with 3 days notice for a weekend visit with no arrival or departure times mentioned in advance. "  I'm not quite following what you meant here.  If I gave my son and wife a three week notice of a visit she would complain for 3 weeks, that would add an unnecessary 2 weeks of browbeating.  Like Scoop any visit I would make would be soured before I arrived, as she chooses to view everything in a negative light, unless there is a gift of money.  I really do not know, if I purchased the couple a anniversary gift would my daughter-in-laws first thought process be, Am I going to get a birthday gift, my birthday comes before my anniversary, my anniversary gift was nice boy I bet my birthday gift if I even get one will really suck.   I don't understand women getting themselves worked up in this negative fashion and expecting anything but a negative outcome.

Why can't he open his own separate bank account?  (Unless he wants to hide his assets from a child support evaluation, which IMO is shabby.)  I'd be very leery of getting in the middle of this.

He said that it was short term, I have a feeling that he is trying to compile enough money to speak with an attorney. 

Elsieshaye, Please do not make negative assumptions about my son's intentions.  He has worked long hard hours starting and enhancing his own business.  He has been the soul supporter of his family and has provided a beautiful home for his little girl. His child means everything to him, to the point of putting up with the humiliation that his wife dishes out just to stay in her life.  Not every man is out to shun responsibilities that come with having a child. Matter of fact I feel that a great majority will endure a domineering wife in an attempt to keep their family together.

Yes it would be shabby as you said, maybe this is what your son might do but I think it's unfair to make that assumption about mine.  I'm seeing a trend here on this website my example of my son even having to make sure that clean sheets are in order for me to visit is mocked, now it's being assumed that because he would like to retain his testes that he is preparing to shaft his own child, she the same child that he said he would walk on fire for.  And walking on fire is what he is doing while his wife is busily making sure that the world knows that she is head of her household.  Ladies I'm terribly sorry, I've made a grave error in coming here.

The topic of Scoop's thread was how much notice is advance notice. Scoop did not get 3 weeks notice to expect a guest.  She did get 3 weeks' notice that "maybe or maybe not" she might want to expect a guest.   The guest said she may decide to work instead, she wasn't sure.   Meanwhile Scoop was asked to keep her schedule clear for the "maybe - maybe not" guests.  When asked the weekend before if they are coming the next, they got another "maybe - maybe not."    3 days notice of actually getting a guest, much less a guest who expects specific accomodations, is not enough time for me.  Having 3 days of notice is still only 3 days notice.  Having weeks of maybe beforehand increases anxiety about the visit, and does not lessen the actual notice.  Finding out on Friday night they're not coming out on Friday night is also disconcerting.  Being treated like that before a visit colors everything else.   Working up any hostess with three weeks of "maybe - maybe not" they'll be there for the weekend, but keep it open for us in case we decide to come, is not conducive to a positive outcome.   

I'm going to reread your posts about your son, since I thought you felt he was being treated abusively, but have since learned you do not.

Ginger, I completely understand that you are hurting and raw right now, but it seems like you are feeling very attacked by many things said here, and are choosing to attack in return.  This might be a good time to step away from the computer and do something kind and soothing for yourself.  I hope you can find some measure of peace and that things work out for your son and his wife.

Quote I do not believe that my son is a victim of abuse in the sense of domestic violence.  I see him as a victim of a overbearing wife who refuses to see a marriage as a partnership. I am not after a better relationship with my daughter-in-law as much as I would like to see her readjust her thinking when she says this is your mom, your problem.

Ginger, I see in your son the same decency and gentleness for his family and for his mother that I see in my own son.  If it were me, I would be doing exactly the same as you are -- including allowing him to sequester money in my account. 

Sometimes I have found this site difficult.  I hear some people ranting away about a mil or dil, but I don't see an equal effort at rapprochement.  I wish for more of the latter in all of us. 

I write this to let you know that I admire your approach to your son's problem.   I hope you stick around.

I signed back on to thank you Gretchenw for your words of sanity.  How many times can I be told to step back and remove my emotions.  I did feel that my sons integrity was in question by the poster Elsieshay and I do not feel that I attacked anyone in my response.  I stated that the assumptions made were unfair and unreasonable. 

With the exception of a few I do see unequal rapprochement amongst the panel here. Thank you for noting that  yourself.

Ginger, I apologize that I came across as questioning his integrity.  That wasn't my intention, and I'm sorry to have offended you.

Elsie, that was a nice apology. I don't come across those often. Ginger, I do understand where you're coming from, both in life and in regards to this forum.

Not challenging you, Gretchenw or Ginger, just needing clarification on your statements regarding unequal rapprochement here. I'm not sure I agree, but might do so if I could get a bit clearer about what exactly you mean.

Regarding this forum, sometimes it just isn't a good fit. Or the timing is off. Or we're unable to take what we need and leave the rest. It doesn't mean the whole thing is wrong, just that at that moment it isn't quite what we're looking for. In the past couple of years since finding this site (which I credit with saving my relationship with my DS, BTW) I've taken some time away when the tone of the posts annoyed me for some reason. I didn't make a big deal out of leaving, I just stopped reading and posting, jumping back in when I was in a better place or when I felt comfortable writing.

We're a motley crew here, we're going to get many outlooks, many viewpoints. I've learned a lot about myself, my DIL, my FOO, and human nature in general. What worked for me in my situation may not work for another.

QuoteI do not believe that my son is a victim of abuse in the sense of domestic violence.  I see him as a victim of a overbearing wife who refuses to see a marriage as a partnership. I am not after a better relationship with my daughter-in-law as much as I would like to see her readjust her thinking when she says this is your mom, your problem.

Whoops last time I pushed "post" instead of preview after the quote...

My thoughts for the above "quote" would be that if your son is not being abused, then it is appears best, for you and for him for their marriage, for you not to interfere in their marriage dynamic.   If there is a power struggle within an adult partnership, where neither is being abused, than that is not any third party's business. They are adults, and they can negotiate their own marriage.   You cannot change your DIL's thinking towards her husband.   That is up to him to try to do, if he wishes.  If he wants a third party to change his wife for him, he could suggest seeing a marriage counselor to his wife.

A woman who works at home, works.  If wife expects a husband to do his extra work when he has guests that he invites, instead of her being willing to do the extra work herself for his guests, I don't see how that makes her overbearing.   If she invited guests and she insisted he clean for the company she invited, I believe that would be domineering of her.  Thus, it could be construed that a husband making plans when he doesn't have the time or energy himself to make sure they happen and insisting his wife clean for his guests, would be domineering of him.   Your DIL may see her husband pitching in for his guests, as him making more efforts to treat their marriage as a "partnership."  One where SAHM mom doesn't mean "maid."

Instead of "his mother, his problem" maybe it's a more general "his plans, his effort to make."  Whether it's hosting his mother or his company softball team over after the game.   Or setting up a big screen tv system.  I understand it was disappointing when your son cancelled your one visit, because he did not have time to prepare for his guest's accomodations.  I wish he had made other plans to arrange so it could happen.  I think he knew ahead of time that his wife was not willing to take on the extra work.

It is inappropriate for a man to ask his mother to hide his marital assets.  He could hide cash other places.  Involving you in his deception while preparing dissolution of his marriage is not fair to you.  Divorce and custody battles can get very ugly.   A good relationship with an ex-DIL could be more important to staying close with your granddaughter, than a good relationship with a DIL.  Leaving you in the neutral zone could be the kindest thing he could do. 

If he does not follow through on his plans to leave the marriage, if DIL ever finds out you hid assets from her, it could be a relationship killer.  You could be seen as an enemy of the marriage, even though you were just trying to help your son.   Right now you and she are cordial, and you are welcome in her home and around their daughter on a regular basis.   I am not trying to frighten you, but instead warn you of potential trouble it seems you could avoid.

My thoughts about both of your son's problems, his power struggles with his wife and his plan to hide cash from her, seem to be the ones he has to learn to handle as a man.  The further away you stay from participating in those personal issues of his, the better outcome predicted for you, and ultimately for him as well.   I sincerely mean this as coming from a place of looking out for you.

Maybe it's the mama bear in me, but if my child called tomorrow because they needed a safe place to accumulate money to pay a good attorney to make sure they did not get royally screwed in a nasty divorce, I'd do it. The seed to leave would have been planted and I would be there to help my child leave their marriage, instead of saving it. A few thousand dollars for an attorney does not equal substantial assets. Or, it could be that I'd do it because my mother once did it for me, as i was a victim of emotional and verbal abuse and just did not need the aggravation of the ex knowing I was leaving until he was served with divorce papers from a good attorney. I imagine a woman getting ready to leave a marriage might be encouraged to squirrel away some money. Kids know that sometimes, if the world's against ya, mom and dad are still in your corner. If it meant never talking to my DS again b/c he patched things up with DIL, I'd do it anyway. Because he knows that no matter the circumstances and where the chips fall, I'm still there for him.

Ginger - Back to my first reply - your situation reminds me of our ex DIL and son.  She suffers from a personality disorder.  The place I found the most help was another site - http://www.bpdfamily.com/ because those on that site were dealing with more severe and damaging issues than many on this site.  I think that is where our problems lie - those who have relationship issues that can be solved and those of us who have relationship issues that cannot be solved.  After all, one cannot reason with someone who can not reason.  All the best ...

Quote from: Pen on June 21, 2011, 04:37:48 PM
Not challenging you, Gretchenw or Ginger, just needing clarification on your statements regarding unequal rapprochement here. I'm not sure I agree, but might do so if I could get a bit clearer about what exactly you mean.

I would like to hear exactly what is meant by unequal rapprochement as well.  I will tell you there is an very unequal rapprochement in regards to my own situation.  In the beginning, it was me always trying and getting absolutely no cooperation from DS or DIL.  Now, I guess it's equalled out more because none of us is trying. 

Like Pen, this forum helped me learn and grow as a person, and understand more about myself.  I was in an angry, hurt place a year ago and several posts that I read, I took personally and was frustrated.  I have learned since then that this forum is about self-exploration.  You have to be willing to hear other perspectives and see if they apply to you or not.  It is not meant to make you feel bad, but simply to make you think. 

Ginger, I think your son is in a domestic abuse situation.  If it is as bad as what you are describing, then it is verbal and mental abuse, which can be just as painful or even more so than physical.

I'm sorry to see any of you leave, but if you feel this forum is not a fit for you, then I wish you the best of luck with your situations.

I first thought it was emotional abuse that was being described, too.  Especially the part about isolation and DIL crowing about ownership.   (I imagine the crowing is one cause of the isolation; I can't imagine hanging out long with a couple where the wife crowed that she owned her husband. )  Since all we have to go on here is the writer's words, I'm going to believe her when she says he's not abused.    Just in what appears to be a lousy partnership with a crowing overbearing wife who won't clean for his guests and doesn't see his mother as her family. 

QuoteI hope my daughter-in-law never feels the need to venture onto the internet to brag about how she has put her husband in his place.  God knows he gets enough of that message directed at him daily, does he need for others to participate in his embarrassment?

I agree he does not.

Quote from: jdtm on June 21, 2011, 05:06:23 PM
Ginger - Back to my first reply - your situation reminds me of our ex DIL and son.  She suffers from a personality disorder.  The place I found the most help was another site - http://www.bpdfamily.com/ because those on that site were dealing with more severe and damaging issues than many on this site.  I think that is where our problems lie - those who have relationship issues that can be solved and those of us who have relationship issues that cannot be solved.  After all, one cannot reason with someone who can not reason.  All the best ...

jdtm, I modified your post to make that website a link instead of just the name.  We are allowed to post links to other sites, articles and such as long as they are not advertising or trying to get someone to buy something. 

You're right Sassy.  It has to be terribly embarrassing for him to have to hear that.   My Mother always said, "Those that have the most to lose, will take the most."

Since clarification is needed, I'll say what I mean. I see a large double standard here. One woman comes on and vents and is defended, while another comes on and is told to step back and stop posting because she is too emotional. In addition, two very similar stories have been told, and while one is being told her DS is in the equivalent of a domestic abuse situation another is being rewarded for very similar behavior. People have been accused by administrators and administrator helpers of getting defensive when they post an interesting, data filled, well-referenced article in response to one article that got posted. There was an accusation this weekend that there was "behind the scenes stuff" over a downright despicable passive aggressive generalization that was made. Apologies for wrong behavior are not encouraged, while intolerance is tolerated. I was directed to read posts, and then keep reading some more. Okay, did that,  also noticed another divide: MILs are a lot more tolerant of a generalization a MIL makes versus one a DIL makes, and vice versa, and that is even evident in the administrators, who are supposed to be objective. All of this creates an atmosphere of unequal rapprochement, and since most of the people responding are somehow linked to the management of this site, it creates a giant mixed message and is reinforcing a culture for inconsistency. Meanwhile, posters are diagnosing others relatives with personality disorders, which is incredible, given that their own relative has yet to be clinically diagnosed unless you count GoogleMD. Has anyone considered this might be dangerous for a site like this? Anonymous administrators otherwise unaffilated with this site would go a long way towards prevention of groupthink as well. Which is another giant problem I see here. Surely, some teen must be looking to add a bullet to his resume. "Volunteer administrator" would be a cake activity and a worthwhile one in this day and age. I already read the posts about "doing our best" and "seeking perfection" so I assure you, that's not what I'm looking for here. We all can admit mistakes, that's easier than actually fixing the mistake and doing better next time. There are too many Chiefs here. Does this site actually WANT feedback from it's posters? And if it does, will it actually take into consideration those less than desirable comments and do something about it? Constructive criticism isn't a bad thing, yet three people all allude to the same thing and they are asked for specifics. Hope this is specific enough. I'd hate to start naming names. This site seems little better than an avenue for groupthink given the lack of diversity and rather low number of posters who are not doing unpaid work for WWU.

I have been trying to think of the best way to explain what I mean by my desire to be in the company of women who are willing, and actively trying, to seek rapprochement with the offending mil/dil.  I think the best way to do explain it is by example: this is what I want for myself. 

1. The single time my dil did come to my house, 4 years ago, I knew she didn't like me.  My "solution" was to plan activities that made her shine.  She is a super athlete, so I planned family activities in her sport - where she could outshine the rest of us and feel good.  I think it helped her feel valued.

2. Suppose I HATED my mil.  Even so, if she thought my patio chairs were too dirty to sit upon, I would quickly get a damp towel and clean (reclean) a chair for her.  I would not sit and watch her try to clean the chair with a tissue, nor would I rant on about it later.  This is what I mean by rapprochement -- trying to see things from the other woman's point of view, and doing things that would make the opposing mil or dil feel better, feel accepted.  Taking a few more positive steps in her direction each time we meet.

3. My own needs here are to exchange dialog with a group of women who are trying to make things better for themselves and their relatives, women who are open to change and actively seeking it, women who will gently help each other and me! to be a little better each day.  I see a lot of support for women who need to withdraw emotionally from a very bad situation.  But I also see too-quick judgments of new posters, and too-few attempts at self improvement.

I have been reading for awhile and have to agree with twyla and gretchen.  The moment I tried to give insight here, I was attacked and then not even apologized to.  The person said she was out of line, still with no apology for jumping to conclusions and attacking me, and she is complimented for being a "class act" for apologizing, which didn't happen.  Cult like or something, I don't know.  It's good to know there are others here who feel that way.

Twyla, I'm still confused, but I will try to suss it all out in time. Gretchenw, your ideas are great, and not dissimilar to those I've read in a great many posts by MILs and DILs previously. Perhaps you've not read them yet. I've been here a long time and feel the tone of this site is very much like you describe. If one poster has written something that irks you, that doesn't mean everyone on the site is in lock step with that one person.

The site is not intended to be anything more than a place to talk civilly. We "helpers" are just members like everyone else; we get no instructions other than the Forum Agreement that all members are encouraged to read & follow. We moderators are not "supposed to be objective" or anything other than glorified hall monitors. All posters are just writing their own opinions; we have no control over what they will or will not say or how they will say it. If the comments seem inconsisitent, it's because they are. As I said earlier, we're a motley crew from all over the world and from all walks of life, religions, lifestyles, etc. There is no Mission Statement regarding some philosophy we all should adhere to.

If this site is not a good fit for anyone, ease on down the road. No hard feelings.

Surfinbirdy, you have a right to your feelings. We're all learning here and don't profess to be professional diplomats or counselors. If you aren't happy here, there is sure to be a place for you somewhere out there that will be a better fit. I truly hope you find your niche.

Surfinbirdy.  I just read the posts you were referring to.  Whoa!  You are right about that exchange.  I'm sorry that happened to you.

Pen, when things happen such as that snarky comment to surfin, why don't the older classier members apologize.  It would set up wwu as a caring place. 

I find WWU to be the most caring place I've visited on the internet.  Diversity, wisdom, and caring in one beautiful place.  Sometimes we will find exactly what we seek out.

Quote from: gretchenw on June 21, 2011, 08:11:26 PM
Surfinbirdy.  I just read the posts you were referring to.  Whoa!  You are right about that exchange.  I'm sorry that happened to you.

Pen, when things happen such as that snarky comment to surfin, why don't the older classier members apologize.  It would set up wwu as a caring place. 

I can't speak for the older members. I think WWU is a caring place already. If you don't, you are free to find what you are looking for elsewhere.

Since we've veered quite far from the OP I'm locking this one.

Oops, my mistake! Forgot where I was for a minute there. D-uh!

I hope Ginger reads this still bc I wanted to encourage her to stay on board.

Okay, fairly new here bc I don't like  ganging up on MILs on the board I recently left (one member suggested this site as being more kind.)  I also don't want ganging up on dils!  I haven't found that to be the case here (I left the other site ASAP bc it was ridiculous!)   

So far I think dils and mils are trying hard to understand a poster's problems w/o prejudice (meaning understanding their own station as a dil or mil.)  I am a MIL but remember times when I wish I had had a gentle and helpful suggestion or venting place for my own problems as a young wife/mother!  If someone doesn't feel understood, it may be bc another poster is making suggestions to help but it comes out as criticism; it may be critcism, or it may be a question; I hope for no outright, "you are wrong" type statements.

I don't like telling posters if they aren't happy to find another site bc frankly, there aren't sites dealing with dils and mils together and I think that's important.  I hope Ginger and others that have felt treated unfairly will return.  Had I been online, I would have said some things to Ginger as a fellow MIL that show I do understand what she is saying.

To the general point of who takes care of the housework depending on who is coming to visit, dil's family or ds's family, this is a new one for me! 

Ever since dh and I married a long time ago, even though I worked and still did most of the housework (not fair, but it's gotten much better for us as the years have passed), whenever my parents or his parents visited, we shared the getting ready chores.  We both cleaned and made the beds and talked about food to serve.  Usually we women did the cooking together but did get some help sometimes from the men (they got better as the years passed about helping.)  Back in the day women were expected to work outside and inside the home a lot of the time; it has thankfully gotten better for some young wives in getting more of the husband's help, thank goodness.

When all left, usually dh did help me w the cleanup of stripping beds, etc.  Not always, but sometimes.  if he didn't help, it wasn't bc it was my parents who visited!  (It did help that none of our arents were picky or critical so the visits were pleasant.)

Even though I did do more than dh, it didn't matter one bit whose side of the family was coming; both sides were welcome although for a while I had no notice that his relatives were coming bc that was their custom; again, much better now!   It was their custom and I just had to get used to it although my husband did hear about it!  But I didn't take it out on them or on him.

But there was never any "it's your mother, so you clean the house" from either of us, even though we both worked and were raising the children.  I did do more housework than dh at the time but it had nothing to do with whose relatives were coming.

Maybe that's why I love his side of the family so much even now and he feels likewise toward mine.  We didn't discriminate.  We shared.

Ginger, I do understand your feelings of ds's being bossed around bc I've seen and heard that a lot.  His wife shouldn't resent your visits from what I can tell and he shouldn't be doing all the work for your visit.  If my sons confided in me of marital troubles, I would advise marital counseling.  If refused, I'd try to just be a sounding board bc as posters say, sons may relate some of the discussion to the wife; I would try to listen w/o advice bc they have to do what they think is right.  I, too, would help my sons w holding on to the funds for a divorce if he is being abused, which I feel he is according to what you say.

Ginger, I do get it and I'm sorry.  And dils, if you have controlling and demanding mils, I'm sorry for that, too.  We are all women united here, regardless of our status!

I hope you ladies reconsider leaving, also.  I'm sorry that things started off on the wrong foot for some of you.  I can assure you, that's not what WWU is about.  Luise & the monitors are good people who give their all.  Considering the baggage & raw nerves many of us arrive here with, I think WWU is exceptional.  Starting off bruised to begin with made some of the advice I received difficult to accept.  Luise suggests that we take what we need & leave the rest.  That has worked for me.  When I read something I don't necessarily agree with, I try to stand in the OP's shoes for a time.  Stick around gals & get to know some of the regulars.  I think you'll be glad you did. 

Welcome...

As the "snarky" poster referenced I'm going to jump in here.My comment "the daughters in law are back" was prompted by what I saw as their pressure on the original poster to justify her feelings. I never see that from the MIL's here. when DIL's post I have never seen MILs  gather to defend the MIL being posted about. We offer support and the opportunity to share . This approach is vastly different then another site some of our newbie posters may be familiar with. I was a member of that site as a MIL until several months ago when the white hot hatred of MIL's in general drove me off. I joined both sites in the beginning of my MIL journey to get as much information about this life change as I could. After a while the gleeful discussions about what to wear to a MIL's funeral, and cut offs forced me off. I couldn't take it any more. And BTW this site is discussed frequently, with an almost universal outrage that MIL's would dare have feelings!
When I posted my snarky comment ( my description btw) I immediately regretted it and admitted I was "out of line". How is that not an apology? Keep in mind ALL I said was "the DIL's" are back. I didn't call anyone close minded or presumptuous. I said I was out of line because my comment violated the tone of civility that this site offers. It is invaluable, and I resent it when it is attacked.

As a DIL, I, for one, find no offense in being referred to as a DIL.  :-*

Sassy I hope you know I'm not talking about you, or the many other DIL's that post here. Just the ones that seem to come on here spoiling for a fight. in all honesty my rawness on this subject has something to do with a recent fight with DS. He made a hurtful comment to me. I called him on it, saying it was inappropriate and hurtful. Did I get an apology ? No he got mad at me for reprimanding him, and told me he wouldn't be talking to me for awhile because I made him feel bad. Excuse me? Subject for another thread, and time for more coffee. 

Good Morning,

   Gosh, I'm almost afraid to type this because I've seen some ugly things happening on this site, that was once not too long ago, the most positive site I had ever been to. 
 
   First I would like to apologize to Ginger again.  I used bad judgement when I made jokes about your situation.  I didn't think that you were new here and your wounds too fresh to be able to laugh.  I honestly and truly didn't mean to offend or mock you.  I also remember when I was new here and I got a few comments that I found unsupportive and hurtful.  I, too, wrote that I would be taking a break.  However, the good did outweigh the bad and I found myself here again.  We have already lost quite a few WONDERFUL wise ladies and I hope we don't lose any more.  We just need to remember why we are here.  We are here because our relationships with our children  or our inlaws are not what we'd like them to be.  So we come here for comfort, support, understanding and advice from people are in similar situations.  Wise Women who know what you are feeling because they are feeling it too. 

  Good Morning Trying!   :)  Please don't get offended.  I truly don't want to offend anyone.  I did go and read the post you were referring to and this is my take on it. You made a comment which you immediately regretted.  You acknowledged your regret immediately, and admitted that it was out of line.  However, you didn't apologize and there is a difference.  ie: my husband damaged one of my flower beds with the water hose.  He came to me and said, "I wasn't paying attention and I killed a few of your flowers".  I waited.....Waited some more and finally I asked, "Well, aren't you going to say "Sorry"?  Sure he admitted he did it, but he had to asked to apologize and that irked me more than the lost of the flowers.  From your comment today I can see that you thought an apology was implied, but it was not clear. JMHO

We are all emotional human beings and few of us will ever go thru life without having offended another person, even if unintentional. The trouble with the written word is that it can easily be misunderstood. 

Hugs to all the wise women on this forum.

Opps, hit the post button and saw two new relplies. 

Tryingmybest- So sorry about the fight with DS.  I know how stressful and upsetting it can be when they treat us badly, and then CUT US OFF!!!  When my DS and I had our fight I was not able to think of anything else.  I found myself talking out loud, not getting any work done and unable to sleep.  He was my first thought in the morning and last thought at night.  How sad that they are unaware, or simply don't care about the power they have to hurt us....BADLY.  I'm sorry your son made a hurtful comment to you.  Make that coffee EXTRA STRONG!!!

Hugs

You don't even know that I'm a DIL coming here with MIL problems- and what you're presuming to be "making a MIL justify herself," was actually nothing more than objectivity.  No one demanded she justify herself, but it normally takes 2 people to feed a relationship problem.  I don't have a dog in anyone's fight and I don't really care what their "label" is, I'm going to be objective.  I'm going to give objectivity and offer up a different way of thinking that may help the problem you have in your relationship.  And if you don't want that, then that's on you and you can "take what you want and leave the rest." 
I expect the monitors will inform me if my views I wrote "don't fit in here."

I do have the ability to lock the thread, but I chose not to last night because I truly wanted to hear the opinions of the ladies here that thought there was a bad tone to the site.  I still think this is a good conversation, and I am open minded.  I don't have to agree with what is being said, but I will listen.  That is, as long as it remains adult conversations and the tone is one of learning and growing. 

I will say that as one of the moderators, I simply enforce forum rules.  Any belief that I have been told anything more than that, is wrong.  I believe in letting adults work out differences as long as they are playing nice in the sandbox.  Twyla and surfinbirdy, the words of your posts are very strong in wanting to admonish the moderators and I have a tough enough skin to take criticism, but the underlying tone of resentment towards the moderators needs to stop.  I'm sorry if you feel like I am not doing my job correctly, I understand some people will not like when I do something as in locking a thread, or modifying something, but honestly, that's what I agreed to do.

Ginger, I like you post and I understand what you mean.  I am not actively seeking a relationship with my estranged son and DIL, because after I exhausted all my efforts, I was tired.  It takes both sides to try and mend a relationship and I can't make them participate.  The door is always open if they choose to want to have a relationship.  That's the best I can do for now.

Let's move on with the topic at hand.

Tryingmybest, even if you were, "DIL" is not an insult to this DIL.   
As for your son, I'm sorry that happened to you.  Hopefully DS will use the time to reflect.   I can't say if his reaction was shame-based.  I don't know if this is related, but this reminds me of something.  I have come across a certain kind of person (in real life), twice now in the last year, who will become quite upset at having their missteps noted.  They will have done something hurtful, and then act as if it was far more "wrong" or hurtful that the other person mentioned they were actually hurt by what they did.  I was so confounded by this the first time it happened (to my DH), that I spent time trying to look it up online.  I found it touched on in the book "Too Perfect" which I dismissed at first because the person did not seem to be what I think of as a perfectionist type.  But after we read it, it did make some sense (it's a light, superficial book).  The second time it happened (to me) I heard from the husband of the woman, who was angry that I had pointed out to his wife an "accident" his wife was making that caused me some distress, and I wanted it to stop.  The odd thing was it wasn't an accident, it was done over a period of time.   While attempting to calm him down, I referred to it to him as a mistake, "everyone makes mistakes, it's not a big deal, we can put it past us" and he corrected me that it was an "accident", since his wife "doesn't make mistakes".  That my pointing out she made a "mistake" when she didn't, was why he was calling.  It was wrong of me to insult her that way, and he wasn't going to stand for it.  I can't imagine the complaining she must have done for him to contact me about that.  Maybe for some people it is incredibly painful to have their mistakes acknowledged by someone else.  It sort of shatters a self-image they have created and come to rely on for self comfort.  I know it makes it difficult to have a sincere relationship with someone you felt close to, when you learn its out of bounds to point out when they're out of bounds.

Muffin, no offense taken and I agree we need to get back to the positive tone of this site. Negative tones and perceptions distort communication. Surfinbirdy if I insulted you by calling you a DIL, I am truly sorry that offended you.  :-\

@ thank you Sassy, I think my son's reaction was the natural result of my jumping in too quickly to protect his fragile ego as a child. I'm afraid he grew up thinking the world and all in it needed to revolve around his views. I here by apologize to every teacher I ever challenged. Yikes! Payback is hard.

OMG!!! :o  Tryingmybest!!!  OMG!!! I just realized I'm a DIL ;D 

No, but serious...I truly just realized that. ;)

My MIL and I didn't get along in the beginning.  In fact I was not allowed in her home for an entire year.  I was 17 and her DS had opened his first bank account and she named herself beneficiary on it.  I had also opened a bank account and named him.  When he told MIL he wanted to change it so it named me she became very upset.  It was very ugly.  I wasn't allowed back into her home until the day we told them we eloped and I was pregnant.  From that day forward it was as if the ugliness had never happened. It took time for us to warm up to each other.  We were cordial but I wasn't very fond of her.  Now all these years later she is second to my own mother.  I adore and love her. 

I guess I just wanted to put it out there that there is hope for all of us.

hugs,
TheMuffin
AKA-FMIL
AKA-DIL

Muffin - I had a similar thought this morning.

The people on this board who are MIL's have also (usually) been DIL's.  So they can usually see both sides of any story.

However, the ones who identify as DIL's haven't been MIL's yet, so we can't completely understand that side.  Oh, we can sympathize, sure, but we can't *know* what it's like.

Also, I for one, really try and play devil's advocate and intentionally try to give a DIL's perspective.  (Except for Pen's DIL - I can't get on her side at all!)

Twyla, it takes 15 minutes to open a bank account in one's own name, and if he requests that everything be electronic and gives his mom's home address as his mailing address, there's no reason for anything to come to his home.   I had to squirrel away money prior to leaving my emotionally abusive ex, and I did it by opening a new account, cashing savings bonds that were in my name and depositing the money in the new account.  If there had ever been a subpoena of all my bank records, the account would have been visible and able to be incorporated into child support calculations as needed.  That's not the case if I'd given the money to my mother to hold on to, which is the point at which it looks like hiding assets, even if that's not what's intended.

Muffin, me too!  ;) and after 35 years my MIL, God Bless her still makes me nuts.  :o LOL.

LOL! "We don't need no stinkin' badges (or labels)!"

I know we are moving on with the OP, but as one of the posters mentioned above I'd like to respond. My use of the word "apology" in praising Trying's acknowledgement of the tone of her post was not meant as a slight to another poster. My feeling at the time was that Trying was expressing her apology, but it is true she didn't use the words "I'm sorry." I will not apologize for my poor choice of words, as much as I wish I'd not used them, because IMO an apology is like a vow one will never make the same mistake again, and I cannot in good conscience guarantee that I won't mispeak in the future.

Trying, I too hope for the best with your son. We do the best we can and sometimes it backfires. If you hadn't run interference you'd probably be blamed for not ever sticking up for him.

Themuffin, thanks for that story. DIL & I are now at the cordial/not fond of me stage. Hoping for the best!

There are many ways to use a Website. We can listen to each other and care and then offer what we have to offer or we can use it to be unkind, judgmental and narrow-minded. The later is not what WWU is for. Please reread the Modified Agreement. We aren't a "one-size-fits-all" site. No site is. No one is going to hammer us into a different shape and create something different here for their own purposes.