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Problem Solving => Daughter in Laws and/or Son in Laws => Topic started by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 07:39:22 AM

Title: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 07:39:22 AM
Well, I know I said, I'd never discuss this situation with my son again...however, he called today, and it wasn't planned on my part, but I asked him what I could do to make this situation better...and I told him that DIL sent back the birthday card and money I sent her.  Right away he got defensive, which, you must know, I understand...it's human nature to do so...he explained that she probably sent back the card b/c she was hurt and figured, why this card now?  He didn't know it happened...and I hope he doesn't mention it to her. 

We once again went round and round about situations that happened...for instance...when she got up and walked out of the resturant...while we were having our coffee....he said, she isn't like us...she never grew up with family and just simply doesn't like to sit around and talk after dinner....
I can understand that...however, don't most people do that?  He said his father and step mother like to do the same, but DIL does not. 

He also explained that at night, they always cuddle on the sofa, and usually fall asleep like that....that is just they way they are...and DIL doesn't mean to ignore me or realize she is whispering and not including me in conversation.

He also talked about the Tomboy comment I made which hurt my DIL...he said, he spoke with some other people about it and they told him, they would be offended if someone referred to they're daughter as a Tom Boy. 

I explained what a Tomboy means to me...and that some of the most beautiful models and movie stars in the world are tomboys...that a tomboy to me, is someone who loves sports, playing baseball, riding horses...yet, still enjoys dressing up like a girly girl...and when I said it, no malace was intended....that I marveled at how my GD was so happy, playing with the goats, in the pasture,  unafraid of the horses...etc....it was something I felt with pride at the time...and believe me, it wouldn't matter to me, if she was or wasn't...

He said, perhaps I was looking to see part of myself in my GD...I don't honestly believe I was...it was just something I felt at the time...

He said he believed there is a personality conflict since the beginning, one thing was said or done, and it simply escalated....

I told him I felt since the very beginning, his wife, has been trying to estrange him and my GD from me....he said that was crazy...

I was very calm, and told him that I am very sorry things went like this, it's not what I wanted to happen, and I wish like anything I could change it, and had not reacted to situations...but I did...and I'm sorry for that.

We talked about how, on my first trip to visit them, she went shopping with her sister...I didn't go, b/c I felt her and her sister needed time along together, and didn't need an old lady tagging along...besides, I hate shopping and couldn't have kept up with my knees being so bad.  Since then, I've had two knee replacements.  I explained to him, for them to leave me alone from 9 a.m. in the morning until after dark was very rude.  He said, knowing his wife, that when I said I didn't want to go along, she took it as a rejection...he's just guessing? 

We spoke about his wife's sister...and how when I got off the plane, they knew something was wrong...I told him, that the way that young girl presented herself to me being together for the first time was un-nerving...all she spoke about was how you use men, take em for everything they have, and dump them when your done....I told him, all the while she was talking, I thought of nothing but fear...if my DIL's sister is like that, they come from the same mold, what is my DIL like...?  When I got off the plane, I was so angry at that girl's attitude, I know it showed...big time...also, I was going thru a very very bad divorce at the time...wasn't myself, which is no excuse, but can tell you, I was really having a very hard time with it.

So, I asked him, please don't keep my GD away from me, and he got mad and said no one is doing that..I was the one who cut them off, why did I do that?  I explained that I couldn't handle it any longer, that it wasn't a snap decission, that I had been thinking about it for years....lest we forget, in the beginning when all this started happening...they did go to counseling b/c of me...b/c of the strain it was having on the marriage....she felt that my son though she was lying, and taking my side...I feel very very distressed about that.

Long story short, at this point in time, I told him I fear calling her, fear rejection, fear saying something wrong...but it's been 12 years and this is so foolish...so ridiculous...

I asked him why, when she and he were  out in the pasture, she asked him, shall I call your mom...and he said no...I asked him why did she have to ask him, and why didn't he say yes...I told him I would never ever reject her...but, I do know, that she doesn't know that about me...
She says, I hate her...and I don't...I hate how she treats me...he says...he's seen times when she's treated me very nicely, and she has...when he is around...

I asked him why she got up and walked out of my apartment years ago, and he said it was b/c I didn't hug her...I said, I didn't think she wanted me to.

and the conversation went on and on, and didn't end on a bad note...in the past, I have hung up on him and have gotten upset, b/c it seems he constantly excuses her behavior...defends rudeness...and it made me feel like he felt I was wrong, it was all my fault, etc.

He said how those jokes about MIL's hold some water...and I said, yes, it does, there are some very immature, dysfuncational mothers out there who treat they're DIL's very badly...however, there are also tons of MIL's/DIL's who get along famiously and genuinely love each other.

He bought up how my MIL used to drive me crazy, and I replied, yes, she did, and at times it was so upsetting...however, I would have never allowed it to get to the point that my DIL and son are now...family is important...I didn't tell him this, however, I did discuss the issue several times with my sister in law, and she told me, you know how controlling mom can be, you just have to start learning to say no...and stop worrying about hurting her...as she is interferring way to much.  I never did....I couldn't...and I believe it was b/c I knew she meant well...and didn't want to hurt her...she had a hard life raising her 3 brothers.

So, our conversation ended, that he asked me to let him think about it...and if I wanted to call her maybe I should...but I'm so afraid to...I want to and have had the phone in my hands so many times...but didn't...me, the tough guy, so afraid to call...so afraid of rejection??????? 

I have been wrong about things in my perception of my DIL perhaps...maybe she didn't do this to estrange my son from me?  I don't know?  I told him, a mother just knows...and that was an unacceptable answer to him....

So, was I wrong to discuss it with him?  Am I wrong to have hope...I keep telling myself to back off and let it play out, for they're sakes, cuz if anything, God forbide would happen to they're marriage, I don't want to be responsible for it....and that's the truth...I don't want them to have problems b/c of me...that is the last thing I want, and it hurts to know that they did in the very beginning, so much so, that they went to counseling..., that cuts deeply...

I told him, that this has been so painful...so upsetting, it's like a dark cloud that follows you around all day..everyday...and I  apologized to him for it happening, and for the things that  I did wrong and took wrong and got defensive about...I said, I was hurt and angry and I wasn't trying to degrade his wife, I was only trying to figure out why this was happening, to understand it, to make it better...I told him, that I don't even know you or DIL that you two are like stangers and that hurts...and I think all of this is so senseless, immature and foolish...why can't we just forget everything and move on...why can't she and I talk and just say to each other, I didn't mean to hurt you...

He mentioned me acting out in the car on the way back to the airport...well, I had given them some money, to help out with some things, and he kept trying to give it back to me...he bought some things and then tried to give me the rest of the money, I had explained to him, that it hurt when he kept doing that, and when he handed me the money in the car, it was like the last straw and I took the money and thru it on the floor and said..."I'm sick of all this attitude!"  I did that, b/c I was angry, hurt...the first day I was there, we got in the car all together, and my DIL yelled at my son b/c he answered her in a very tired manner...he was tired..he worked late and picked me up at the airport...well, she yelled at him and said, don't talk to me like that, I won't have this attitude, and it upset me, that she yelled at my son in front of me...I guess I was wrong...to feel that way...

He said when they walk out of a resturant together, DIL always takes his arm and they walk and talk...and I said, son, that was so rude...I couldn't keep up, you guys were back at the car and I was still crossing the street...it's rude to not include company or whoever you go out to eat with, that you walk together and talk?  He doesn't see it...

I feel so bad...did I create this problem...is this my fault...yes, I am sensitive and stubborn and I can't help but wonder if I have been wrong all along...?  I know I must take ownership in this, and must have hurt DIL's feelings at times...you all know, I'm very cut and dry, and do come off tough, and strict...how can I change that?  I've been this way for 61 years...and I have very strong institutions about rudeness...I work in an environment, that know matter what, you always contain yourself, you never act out, you talk things over...but we woman, can sometimes be so vindictive....and I can't help but wonder if this whole thing did start because of me...and not because she wanted to keep me out of they're lives...believe me, when I was younger, a lot of women didn't like me...I was very independent and didn't need to be part of a group...I was perfectly happy to go off by myself..not b/c I didn't like them or b/c I was antisocial..but b/c I loved being alone, and still do...however, I was taught when you have company, you extend yourself, and you may not always enjoy what your doing, but the point is, to make they're visit a memorable one...plus, we as a family did socialize alot, b/c our family was spread throughout the country, so when company/family came, they stayed two weeks a month...and we all got along famiously...my mother loved her inlaws...

I just don't get this...ok, yes, I was wrong, and probably did do a lot of things that hurt her....which also makes me fear being around her....??????

I do admit, I do fear her in a very big way...and maybe I'm weak, but I can't take the rejection any longer....


so, that's it...

thank you for taking the time to read...

Creme
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 07:51:23 AM
Creme, Creme, Cream!! I wish I wasn't headed out right now.  Oh!! I'm so glad he called you!  What a wonderful thing this is!!!  He opened the door; he explained her side; it is all good!

I know you're afraid, I do.  But, just remember he called and you discussed it.  Maybe you should get a friend to come be with you while you call her. I would have someone with me just for support.  Your son sounds like he doesn't want this rift between you anymore.

It's a victory, Creme.  If she's cold at first, just be very kind.  Have a friend be with you when you call. :)
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 07:56:24 AM
no Chickie...he's been calling me, ever since before he left for Afghanistan....we have been communicating for about 2 years, just him and I...I'm so sorry if I made you think differently...he calls me just about every week, and write me as well...

and I don't know why, I vowed, I'd never bring this situation up or talk to him about the birthday card, and honestly, didn't have it planned, I had asked about my GD and then, all of a sudden, it just started coming out...I didn't want to discuss it with him, b/c it's always such a heartbreaking issue...especially for him...

and chickie, the point is, I want to call her, but I don't...I'm very afraid to call her...I want it to all change...I will except the blame even if it's not my fault...this is just so stupid, so ridiculous...we women can really be brutal to each other sometimes...and my son, says, he's seen it...men can have a disagreement, and it's over forgotten, we women will take these thing to our graves....and quit honestly, I'm not like that...I am a very forgiving person, say what I must say, and then move on....yanno?
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 08:31:34 AM
I wouldn't call. That's just my take. He married a strange person from your perspective (and mine) and she probably isn't ever going to be any different. Your son can't explain her but she is his choice.

The cost is high but it seems to me the only thing you can do is have it be the way it is. Returning a card and a check is a small thing...but it is also monumental and irreversible. (And, for what it's worth, I see it as inexcusable.) It has left you afraid to pick up the phone. Look at that. Then why would you?

I wouldn't hope. I would certainly be there if she ever had a change of heart...but you can't change her heart, or even reach it if she has shut you out. It's her right, no matter how self-defeating it is.

Contact with your son is a many-spendored-thing. So many sons we have "met" on this site give up and back away. I'd just enjoy the crumbs thrown your way...sad as that sounds. He chose this, he supports it, he rationalizes it and probably it would be best not to challenge him further about it.

All of the above is extremely subjective...and I admit, protective of you. Take it with a grain of salt but/and know that it was written with love.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Barbie on March 07, 2010, 08:52:46 AM
In my opinion, you need to put the past behind you and never bring it up again, I know, it's easier said than done but it's your only option if you want this to work. Remember she's always going to say and do things that will annoy you and you'll just have to ignore it, she's not going to change her ways, it's you who is going to have to put up with all her rudeness, etc., if you can do that, then by all means be the bigger person and call her, maybe in time she'll meet you halfway, don't count on it though, you also have to be prepared for another heartbreak, after twelve years, are you sure you want to go through that again?
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 09:28:20 AM
Louise...I always always appreciate your input...so, thank you kindly for taking the time to reply...I'm going to think about this...not something I can go do right away...but do see your point of view and why...thank you, hugs...

Guest1....yes, your right, and I don't know why I bought it up...to go round and round on this is senseless...and it only stirs up heartache...I think now, knowing what I know...being stronger, and through the counseling of you women...I believe I can ignore what she says and does...
and perhaps I have been wrong, perhaps, we both took things as a personal attack?  Thank you, and big hugs Guest 1 and Chickie....

To both of you, I just got off the phone with my girlfriend...she is a very forgiving person...she suggested to write her an email...and said, I have nothing left to loose by writing her and if she doesn't reply...so be it? 

I may do that...however, I'm not going to bring up the past...I'm only going to suggest we both try and go forward...and I want her to know, that I don't hate her...she keeps telling my son that I do...as I feel she hates me to....

I don't know, what to do, what to do...

Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 10:32:23 AM
Gosh, everyone has a different way of looking at it, Creme and I know exactly what they're talking about.  You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If you don't have a relationship with that wife, you won't have much of one with your son, though.  It just works that way when you have a son.  At least that's what one of my DILs said to me.  Relationship with him is only through her, according to my DIL.  Take that for what it's worth.  I don't know what to tell you.  I wish I did.

You'll do the right thing...whatever is right for you.  Please tell us what happens and we're pulling for you. 
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 10:58:51 AM
About five years ago, when I had my last impasse with someone close, (a friend of 25 years)...it was email based. When I talked with Kirk, (who is a licensed counselor and ordained minister,) about it later he told the that my only chance would probably have been one-on-one. Letters whether snail mail or email are unilateral communications without the benefit of body language, tone of voice, eye contact or the exchange of energy fields. The result is that they are extremely easy to misinterpret.

My situation was not similar to yours since if involved her sharing a confidence with me after agonizing over it for 25 years...and then creating a permanent break in our friendship because she couldn't stand my knowing about it. Pretty much a catch 22...but I do remember Kirk's feedback, after the fact. When he said that, I contacted her and set up a meeting...but she came armed with printouts of my emails all marked up with highlighter and it was a lost cause for the reasons given above.

There probably isn't a right thing to do. My mom used to say, "Sometimes you have to choose between wrong and wronger." I am heavily prejudiced in your favor, keep that in mind, and I also have a nasty little streak in me that wishes she would have drawn the mean-mother-in-law card. Shame on me! (Why am I smiling?)

Sending love.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 11:06:10 AM
Luise, I've seen that happen too..a person tells you something confidential and then makes you an enemy because they told you. 

Regarding the mean streak...boy! I wish I had a teaspoon of that!!  I am just a sitting duck out there.

I wish some of the DILs out there would put their views into Creme's delima.  Maybe they will. It's a tough one and a life changer.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 11:19:00 AM
 ;D I can be a mean-thinking sitting duck!   ;D
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 11:23:54 AM
wow....I missed that gene.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Postscript on March 07, 2010, 11:35:27 AM
I feel so bad...did I create this problem...is this my fault...yes, I am sensitive and stubborn and I can't help but wonder if I have been wrong all along...?  I know I must take ownership in this, and must have hurt DIL's feelings at times...you all know, I'm very cut and dry, and do come off tough, and strict...how can I change that?  I've been this way for 61 years...and I have very strong institutions about rudeness...I work in an environment, that know matter what, you always contain yourself, you never act out, you talk things over...but we woman, can sometimes be so vindictive....and I can't help but wonder if this whole thing did start because of me...and not because she wanted to keep me out of they're lives...believe me, when I was younger, a lot of women didn't like me...I was very independent and didn't need to be part of a group...I was perfectly happy to go off by myself..not b/c I didn't like them or b/c I was antisocial..but b/c I loved being alone, and still do...however, I was taught when you have company, you extend yourself, and you may not always enjoy what your doing, but the point is, to make they're visit a memorable one...plus, we as a family did socialize alot, b/c our family was spread throughout the country, so when company/family came, they stayed two weeks a month...and we all got along famiously...my mother loved her inlaws...

Creme I can see blame on both sides here, mostly though a lack of communication.  Both of you are perceiving different things as rude and either reacting outwardly or holding on to them.  You and your daughter in law are different types of people.  I'd venture to guess that the only thing you have in common is that you are the mother of her husband. 

Different generations have different attitudes, for example I don't see it as rude for her to take her husbands arm and walk with him, but I agree they should have walked at your pace and included you, where you are putting the blame for that on her (or seem to be I could be very wrong) I think your son had a part to play in that too.   The same with them snuggling on the couch.  He has the power to include you and he should.
 
As for her yelling at your son, that is between them and while I personally don't believe in reigning my husbands attitude in, in a public setting, she apparently has no such inhibitions.  You excuse your son because he was tired and had picked you up at the airport.  Perhaps your daughter in law was tired too and she was at the airport as well.  He is an adult and he doesn't need you to get upset for him or take any action.  Presume you have equipped him for life with the power to defend himself if and when he finds it necessary.  In other words, don't hold what is essentially between them, personally.

Giving money to adults can say many things, especially when it's for no apparent reason other than to help out.  Giving me money is implying I need it, can't take care of myself and my family, it's pride I suppose.  Your son tried to give it back, then tried to give you the change.  The fact he did it several times, says to me it embarrassed him and while you were hurt, I don't think your display took his feelings into account.  Think of it as a learning experience for yourself and look at how you could handle it differently in the future.  I also wonder why it's ok for you to throw money and have a little public attitude when you find it rude for your daughter in law to do so?  Forgive me but that seems something of a double standard.

I think the biggest hurdle to getting over a rift is that somebody has to take the first step and apologize.  I'm sure that your daughter in law feels you owe her an apology and you probably feel the same, for all the hurts and slights etc.  It's not so much being the bigger person, it's taking ownership and that first step, it's an apology for your part in the degeneration of the relationship.  Don't expect to get one back, an apology should be unconditional, unreserved, meaningful and specific.  An apology is the beginning of healing, it isn't the solution.  Communication needs to be opened and it has to be in a manner acceptable to both parties.  As my father used to say wishing and doing are two different things, wishing doesn't get it done.

I hope you don't take this as an attack, it isn't meant to be.  I am trying to offer you some different perspectives, food for thought.  I admire your desire to make a change and wish you well in your efforts should you summon the courage to contact her.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cocobars on March 07, 2010, 11:37:26 AM
Creme, I'm so sorry you are agonizing over this.  I'm afraid I'm stumped.  I wouldn't know what to do either.  I "think" I would wait if it were me.  At least until your son came home and had a little time to settle back in.  I'm not sure of that, but that's what I "think" I would do.

What a heartbreak, but I really do agree that it's a good sign.  Holding all that in for so long is never good for anyone, and I'm hoping that ends up proving to be an important conversation.

Keep your chin up and let us know what you decide.  Hugging you!
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 11:52:10 AM
Chickie - Yeah, I know. You missed out on the mean streak!  ;D
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 11:53:01 AM
Quote2chickiebaby link=topic=488.msg9201#msg9201 date=1267986743]
Gosh, everyone has a different way of looking at it, Creme and I know exactly what they're talking about.  You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

yes, and I do so want it to work out...I do...

QuoteIf you don't have a relationship with that wife, you won't have much of one with your son, though.  It just works that way when you have a son.  At least that's what one of my DILs said to me.  Relationship with him is only through her, according to my DIL.  Take that for what it's worth.  I don't know what to tell you.  I wish I did.

You are absolutely right, and this is the part my son refuses to see....and I can understand why he doesn't...and thanks Chickie...it's a tough call

QuoteYou'll do the right thing...whatever is right for you.  Please tell us what happens and we're pulling for you.

thanks so much and many hugs
for listening...
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 11:56:38 AM
Quote
Quote from: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 10:58:51 AM
About five years ago, when I had my last impasse with someone close, (a friend of 25 years)...it was email based. When I talked with Kirk, (who is a licensed counselor and ordained minister,) about it later he told the that my only chance would probably have been one-on-one. Letters whether snail mail or email are unilateral communications without the benefit of body language, tone of voice, eye contact or the exchange of energy fields. The result is that they are extremely easy to misinterpret.

My situation was not similar to yours since if involved her sharing a confidence with me after agonizing over it for 25 years...and then creating a permanent break in our friendship because she couldn't stand my knowing about it. Pretty much a catch 22...but I do remember Kirk's feedback, after the fact. When he said that, I contacted her and set up a meeting...but she came armed with printouts of my emails all marked up with highlighter and it was a lost cause for the reasons given above.

I've never know this situation, until now, and it's such a shame...I'm sorry this happened to you...however, Luise,  you never know what tomorrow brings, right? 

As for the mean streak, I don't believe it...we all have different tollerance levels, but I see you as a person, like myself, who can take a lot...however, you probably do have a place, when pushed to much, it breaks...which is only human...much love to you...thank you

QuoteThere probably isn't a right thing to do. My mom used to say, "Sometimes you have to choose between wrong and wronger." I am heavily prejudiced in your favor, keep that in mind, and I have have a nasty little streak in me that wishes she would have drawn the mean-mother-in-law card. Shame on me! (Why am I smiling?)

Your mother must have been a very wise woman...and thank you for the compliment and support...

Creme
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 12:12:06 PM
QuotePostscript
Creme I can see blame on both sides here, mostly though a lack of communication.  Both of you are perceiving different things as rude and either reacting outwardly or holding on to them.  You and your daughter in law are different types of people.  I'd venture to guess that the only thing you have in common is that you are the mother of her husband. 

Your probably right...I don't believe she and I do have much in common....but having someone like that in your family...well, to me, it's a very good learning experience.


QuoteDifferent generations have different attitudes, for example I don't see it as rude for her to take her husbands arm and walk with him, but I agree they should have walked at your pace and included you, where you are putting the blame for that on her (or seem to be I could be very wrong) I think your son had a part to play in that too.

There is nothing wrong with her taking my husband's arm...nothing at all, however, it is so rude for her to pull him ahead, not turn around once, or include me in conversation while walking back to the car....and it's always happening...not that it bothers me that much...just an example...


QuoteThe same with them snuggling on the couch.  He has the power to include you and he should.

yes, however, I believe they are both wrong....and they say, after you live with someone long enough, you become like them...and you do...so believe me, many times I have asked myself...why does he buy into all of this...he wasn't raised like this...to be so rude, let alone excuse it?

 
QuoteAs for her yelling at your son, that is between them and while I personally don't believe in reigning my husbands attitude in, in a public setting, she apparently has no such inhibitions.  You excuse your son because he was tired and had picked you up at the airport.  Perhaps your daughter in law was tired too and she was at the airport as well.  He is an adult and he doesn't need you to get upset for him or take any action.  Presume you have equipped him for life with the power to defend himself if and when he finds it necessary.  In other words, don't hold what is essentially between them, personally.

Ok, this one I should explain...1st, she didn't come to the airport...only he did...and yes, he's been tired for a long time...he works 3  jobs...he didn't snap at her, and the moment she yelled at him...I was in a state of shock, thinking..."What the heck bought that on?"  He wasn't rude, condiscending or anything, he just answered her in a tired tone...not at all a tone of indifference...I personally think, she was trying to show me, her power and that she doesn't put up with anything, using that particular incident, as an excuse to weild her control....? I dunno, I could be wrong?  I was simply shocked by the whole thing...
QuoteGiving money to adults can say many things, especially when it's for no apparent reason other than to help out.  Giving me money is implying I need it, can't take care of myself and my family, it's pride I suppose.  Your son tried to give it back, then tried to give you the change.  The fact he did it several times, says to me it embarrassed him and while you were hurt, I don't think your display took his feelings into account.
I never took that into account...and I can see your point...however, and this is no excuse, but it's what a mother does, isn't it...trys to help they're kids out financially..it wasn't a whole lot of money...?  Am I wrong?  I can, see your point....


QuoteThink of it as a learning experience for yourself and look at how you could handle it differently in the future.  I also wonder why it's ok for you to throw money and have a little public attitude when you find it rude for your daughter in law to do so?  Forgive me but that seems something of a double standard.

No need to forgive you, it was Wrong on my part, really Wrong...it was a culmination of the whole week...how she  snapped at me, when I asked her if I could help her in the kitchen, and of course, my son wasn't present, but she said..."OHHHH Calm down and go away!"  Her walking out of the resturant...and not once, allowing me to choose a resturant...I was paying for our dinners...I only wanted to treat them...but we had to go to where she wanted to go, always...when she's ready to go...I was wrong and there is no excuse for my behavior...as my girlfriend said, while my DIL and son, may still be adults, I'm still the mother...and I should have never ever acted like that...I was in fact so frustrated...hurt, etc. 

QuoteI think the biggest hurdle to getting over a rift is that somebody has to take the first step and apologize.  I'm sure that your daughter in law feels you owe her an apology and you probably feel the same, for all the hurts and slights etc.  It's not so much being the bigger person, it's taking ownership and that first step, it's an apology for your part in the degeneration of the relationship.  Don't expect to get one back, an apology should be unconditional, unreserved, meaningful and specific.  An apology is the beginning of healing, it isn't the solution.  Communication needs to be opened and it has to be in a manner acceptable to both parties.  As my father used to say wishing and doing are two different things, wishing doesn't get it done.
I hope you don't take this as an attack, it isn't meant to be.  I am trying to offer you some different perspectives, food for thought.  I admire your desire to make a change and wish you well in your efforts should you summon the courage to contact her.
[/quote]

yes, that's true...my son once told me, if your waiting for an apology from DIL, don't hold your breath...she will never apologize, and, as I know her, she will never take ownership, it's all my fault...but I do agree, it should be unconditional...

Yanno, I lost 3 babies, and I love children...however, when my son told me he was going to propose to DIL, I was extactic...finally, another female friend...oh, I was so overjoyed, and I never saw this whole thing coming, and it's still so hard for me to comprehend...

I don't know what I'm going to do, but expect nothing no matter what I do...and I believe Luise is right, you can't change hearts...

I'm so thankful for your feedback and appreciate you taking the time to read and comment...you've been very kind and agree with what you say...
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 12:23:26 PM
Quotecocobars
Creme, I'm so sorry you are agonizing over this.  I'm afraid I'm stumped.  I wouldn't know what to do either.  I "think" I would wait if it were me.  At least until your son came home and had a little time to settle back in.  I'm not sure of that, but that's what I "think" I would do.

What a heartbreak, but I really do agree that it's a good sign.  Holding all that in for so long is never good for anyone, and I'm hoping that ends up proving to be an important conversation.

Keep your chin up and let us know what you decide.  Hugging you!

Thanks cocoa...

this isn't something I'm going to jump into, believe me...but if I do decide to write or call her, I will let you know...
I just wish like anything, none of this would have ever happened...I wish I would have been healthier mentally at the time all these things started happening, perhaps I would have reacted so much differently...I don'tknow if it was b/c I was going thru a divorce...or if I was being utterly immature...you back me into a corner, I'm going to come out fighting...however...when this all happened the first time, all that kept going thru my mind is....

What is happening here...is she doing this on purpose?  She holds the key that will enable me to be part of they're lives or not, and if they have children, what is to be?  What is going to happen...

I keep bouncing back and forth on this...but honestly, the whole thing was strange, very weird...I sure wish I was wrong, but I feel my DIL has been pushing my buttons all this time, to purposely estrange me from them...however, I know she doesn't like my son's step mother and father at times...but she tollerats them...why me?  Why so hateful to me...why does she say and do cruel things when my son's not around and is so nice to me when he is...how can you change like that? 

Like the time she came home, and without first taking her coat off, comes thru the door, barely says hello, and opens every cabinet in the kitchen and slams the doors shut on each one of them....what was that all about...?  Was she angry b/c I was in her home...?

And what about the time I gave my Grand daughter a bath, and got her ready for bed before I took my grand daughter home to her mother...I thought I was doing a good thing...but she grabbed the child out of my arms, went to the opposite corner of the room, got this strange look of fear in her eyes, and starting rocking back and forth, holding the baby close to her, like I had hurt that child...my God, what did I do?  And then I was told by my son to not ever give her any baths any more??????

I thought she'd be  happy that I did that...I did it for her, so that she could read to my GD and that's it...I wouldn't hurt any child...and I was so hurt by that....why would she think that of me...my son and I got along so well when he was growing up...he was so easy to raise...was he perfect, no...but a very easy child to raise, and we had so many good times, along with the kids from our church, and all my son's friends....?  I don't get this...

She makes me feel like I'm no good...like when she is constantly bringing up how I gave my GD soda for Breakfast...I never gave her soda, but wasn't going to argue with her??????  It just doesn't make sense...none of this..

cocoa, thanks for the hugs

I don't know what I'm going to do, I remember the last time I apologized to her, a long time ago, when she was pregnant, she yelled at me...."You hurt me, I don't know if I could ever trust you again"...I was so upset, I couldn't ask her, why, what did I do to hurt you, please tell me...but I couldn't even think that far...I was so upset and taken back by her attitude of stubborness, almost unwilling to discuss it, just kept blaming me for everything...and when she said to me, you never call me, you never ask to talk to me...well, from that point on, I started calling her...for years I phoned her and wouldn't give up...she never once, in all that time answered her phone, but if I mentioned it to my son...then she'd call...?  Why? 

I apologize, I just feel so helpless...and all the other emotions which go along with this...which you girls know about...I wish we  could all go forward, yes, it would be awkward and hard for a long time...however, I just feel,if she wasn't so vindictive...we could work it out...I mean, if you want something to work out, you try, don't you...?  You don't do things like this to antagonise the situation? 

Gosh, I don't know what to think, it's been a long long time since I've been around her....I don't know if I want to go there again..., and yet, if I don't try, I don't get to see my son or GD...

My son told me he asked her to have my GD call me, several times, but she only had her call me once...since my son left last June...now, ok, I understand, how she feels towards me, but why would a mother keep a grand daughter, her own daughter from her GM? 

And also, why would she not allow my GD to open the box I sent to her, she opens it, and in a rage, throws the 3 dresses out I bought for my GD...and my son's step mother said, b/c they were there...those were beautiful dresses to.  What mother would take away recieving the joy of a package from her own daughter...to me, that says she really really hates me? 



Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 12:38:58 PM
Creme, you are dealing with a crazy woman.  You are.  I don't know if it's sexual abuse (the bath?) or what but she has it in for you and that's that.  You cannot win with her. 

These people are going to never, NEVER change.  You can change but dangit, that's not fair, is it?  All info goes through her into him and that's the end of that story. He will tell her he talked to you, he will.  Get prepared for more hatred coming from her.

She did all these things to hurt you.  You know it and I know it.  I'm sorry. People are different but people who have no manners are trash.  I don't care if they've read 30 versions of Boundaries, they're still trash. 

To not have common courtesy in our society, in our country with our freedoms is unacceptable.  She should have shown the mother of her husband common courtesy, she didn't and that makes her trash.  You might get mad at me and I'm sorry but that's how I see it. 

Instead of trash let's just say, "no manners".
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 12:44:27 PM
Quote from: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 12:38:58 PM
Creme, you are dealing with a crazy woman.  You are.  I don't know if it's sexual abuse (the bath?) or what but she has it in for you and that's that.  You cannot win with her. 

These people are going to never, NEVER change.  You can change but dangit, that's not fair, is it?  All info goes through her into him and that's the end of that story. He will tell her he talked to you, he will.  Get prepared for more hatred coming from her.

She did all these things to hurt you.  You know it and I know it.  I'm sorry. People are different but people who have no manners are trash.  I don't care if they've read 30 versions of Boundaries, they're still trash. 

To not have common courtesy in our society, in our country with our freedoms is unacceptable.  She should have shown the mother of her husband common courtesy, she didn't and that makes her trash.  You might get mad at me and I'm sorry but that's how I see it. 

Instead of trash let's just say, "no manners".

I'm not mad at you, I'm sitting here bawling like a baby...she is not trash chickie, she's a human being...and I feel so sorry that she grew up the way she did...no one should ever have to go thru that...but I also feel sorry for me...however, Chickie...I will never call her trash...she loves my son, he loves her...she must have many good points about her otherwise, he wouldn't love her, right?

And he does love her so much...so much so, that he is always posting on his facebook, messages to her...and it hurts me to see, that he is always the one who initiates saying things like,  "I want to wish my beautiful wife, a Happy Valentines Day, I miss you and wish I were there"...and she will come back and repeat the same thing,but she has never posted anything first to him on his facebook...and it bothers me....it's always, I love you to hun, or I miss you to babe...but never once has she come in and said, Honey, I love you and want you to know I was thinking of you, and miss you terrible...?  Or not once has she said, my handsome husband...and he is always always saying, my beautiful wife...is that b/c he is trying to stroke her ego, and knows he must?  Or is he only infactuated with her beauty?  Or am I making to much out of things?  Reading things that are not there?

Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Postscript on March 07, 2010, 12:57:05 PM
as my girlfriend said, while my DIL and son, may still be adults, I'm still the mother...and I should have never ever acted like that...I was in fact so frustrated...hurt, etc.

With respect Creme, I think your friend is wrong.  It has nothing to do with "I'm still the mother" and everything to do with being respectful of your sons feelings.  I appreciate it had been a "long" week though and it's a good example of what I said earlier about holding on to things.  Sometimes, something has to give, the trick is not getting to that point.

I obviously misunderstood when your daughter in law yelled at your son, you were on the way home and she was in the car with you.

but it's what a mother does, isn't it...trys to help they're kids out financially

Again with the greatest of respect, no it's not what a parent does, in my opinion.  That old saying give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for life applies here.  You teach your children to make a living and clearly your son has a terrific work ethic coupled with an admirable desire to provide for his family.  Congratulations, you've done a wonderful job raising a responsible human being.  Instead of giving money, I suggest you give the gift of praise and the knowledge that should he need anything you are there for him, he only need ask. 

yes, however, I believe they are both wrong....and they say, after you live with someone long enough, you become like them...and you do...so believe me, many times I have asked myself...why does he buy into all of this...he wasn't raised like this...to be so rude, let alone excuse it?

He's loving toward his wife, that is a good thing.  The only way to find out why he is excusing this is to ask him why HE doesn't include you, at this point all you've done is ask him to explain her behavior.  At least that is what is expressed in your post.

What Chickie said about not having a much of a relationship with the son if you don't have one with the daughter in law doesn't have to be so.  It's all about how much a son is willing to put into maintaining a relationship and how much responsibility they are willing to take in a smooth relationship between their wife and mother.  It works the same way with the maternal parents.  When you put two families, with different upbringings, views etc together, there is always going to be friction along the way. 

I think in the main women are more proactive about it.  We need to be teaching our sons that they have a responsibility for relationships linked to their marriages as well.  I think society lets men still get away with an awful lot when it comes to maintaining the home and relationships within their families.  It's like birthdays, my husband and I made an agreement years ago (mainly because my family is so prolific) that he would take care of birthdays for his family, I would take care of mine (meaning I had the lions share).  Suffice to say, his families birthdays more often than not go uncelebrated.  Mine do not.  I know my mother in law holds me responsible for that while I carry a free conscience.  I know this because when we still did gifts for adults, I never got one from my parents in law and my husband always did.  When we did speak about it, I told him this was because HE didn't keep up his end of our bargin and I was getting the blame.  That's about when he made the announcement we would only buy for kids...sigh. 
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 01:02:14 PM
Creme, the minute I hit send, I felt so bad about sending it.  I AM SO SORRY!!! 

Please understand that I am so sick and tired to trying to stand on my eyelash to please a young woman that your post hit a nerve. I don't usually get that mad but I did.

I am sorry. I should not have called her that. Why in the world a young person cannot treat their elders right is beyond my capability of thinking.  Once again, I reacted when it's none of my business. 
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Postscript on March 07, 2010, 01:07:28 PM
Chickie at the risk of moving this discussion in an altogether different direction...

The younger generation have been given too many rights.  When I was a child I was taught to be seen and not heard, to act like a lady and respect my elders because they had lived and knew more.  I was promised that when I grew up, I would be respected in turn but it was made clear to me that as a child, my parents values were the rule.

Now schools go ahead and tell children they have rights, that they deserve more.  It's the result of the uninformed village raising the children.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 01:15:40 PM
Postscript, you are so right.  The uninformed village is raising the children.  It's a mess.

I will tell you that one of our DILS does whatever is necessary to make her children happy. If they want an honor, she sees to it they get one.  They never have to work for one single thing.  In her mind, they cannot fail, get hurt, have adversity, ever.  I think it's sad because although they are darling kids, adversity will come their way, like it or not. So hard to watch.

The world will not cater to you just because you're you.  I really like the "uninformed village" statement.  :)
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 01:15:59 PM
QuotePostscript

With respect Creme, I think your friend is wrong.  It has nothing to do with "I'm still the mother" and everything to do with being respectful of your sons feelings.  I appreciate it had been a "long" week though and it's a good example of what I said earlier about holding on to things.  Sometimes, something has to give, the trick is not getting to that point.

My girlfriend said that about another subject...sorry, I inserted that part, and what I meant was, I should have never reacted like that...that was so wrong of me...but honestly, my girlfriend said "I am the mother, regardless of how old they are, and they should remember that"...and this is a woman whose DIL's all love her to death...they would do anything for her...

QuoteI obviously misunderstood when your daughter in law yelled at your son, you were on the way home and she was in the car with you.

This happened the very next day...my DIL wasn't along when my son picked me up...the very next day when we got in the car to go somewhere, the moment we were in the car it happened, he had not even started the car yet....

QuoteAgain with the greatest of respect, no it's not what a parent does, in my opinion.  That old saying give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for life applies here.  You teach your children to make a living and clearly your son has a terrific work ethic coupled with an admirable desire to provide for his family.  Congratulations, you've done a wonderful job raising a responsible human being.  Instead of giving money, I suggest you give the gift of praise and the knowledge that should he need anything you are there for him, he only need ask.

Yes, I agree and understand....

QuoteHe's loving toward his wife, that is a good thing.  The only way to find out why he is excusing this is to ask him why HE doesn't include you, at this point all you've done is ask him to explain her behavior.  At least that is what is expressed in your post.

Right again....I agree...

QuoteWhat Chickie said about not having a much of a relationship with the son if you don't have one with the daughter in law doesn't have to be so.  It's all about how much a son is willing to put into maintaining a relationship and how much responsibility they are willing to take in a smooth relationship between their wife and mother.  It works the same way with the maternal parents.  When you put two families, with different upbringings, views etc together, there is always going to be friction along the way.

your absolutely right, but I believe some son's fear loving they're mothers, and by the way, when this all started, they went to counseling b/c of me, b/c of the stress it was causing on they're marriage....that is what he told me today...and that hurt awful....

QuoteI think in the main women are more proactive about it.  We need to be teaching our sons that they have a responsibility for relationships linked to their marriages as well.  I think society lets men still get away with an awful lot when it comes to maintaining the home and relationships within their families. 

Yes, I agree...

QuoteIt's like birthdays, my husband and I made an agreement years ago (mainly because my family is so prolific) that he would take care of birthdays for his family, I would take care of mine (meaning I had the lions share). 

I'm not saying your wrong...I was simply raised differently, and enjoyed being a part of sending my MIL and FIL cards, doing things for them...but then, I was always a card person...and we do it at work all the time...I dunno, it's simply how you were raised I guess....and has to be a mutual agreement between man and wife...however, if I didn't send the cards, my husband would have never bothered...which I thought was awful...however, he would stop in once a week and have dinner with them, and her after his father passed away....and take her out to dinner once in a while...my family or I would say, hubby has a date with his mother tonight...and I thought it very healthy for him to spend quality time alone with her...

QuoteSuffice to say, his families birthdays more often than not go uncelebrated.  Mine do not.  I know my mother in law holds me responsible for that while I carry a free conscience.
Well, she shouldn't, that's wrong, however, it must hurt her very much to not be celebrated...for instance...my son's step mother, turned 60 years ago...they had a huge party for her...my son and DIL couldn't be there, but hired a comedian to come to her party...they never did anything close to that for me, my son never even remembered my birthday, which didn't start until after they were married, before that, he always remembered my birthday....and boy, does that hurt...

QuoteI know this because when we still did gifts for adults, I never got one from my parents in law and my husband always did.  When we did speak about it, I told him this was because HE didn't keep up his end of our bargin and I was getting the blame.  That's about when he made the announcement we would only buy for kids...sigh.


yes, sigh is right...I believe some men become so thoughtless and forgetful at times....I wonder how he would feel if everyone just forgot him on his birthday?

And believe me, I've only had one birthday party in my entire life...so I'm not needy in that respect...and now my son, does remember my birthday with a card and flowers...

Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 01:19:31 PM
Quote from: Postscript on March 07, 2010, 01:07:28 PM
Chickie at the risk of moving this discussion in an altogether different direction...

The younger generation have been given too many rights.  When I was a child I was taught to be seen and not heard, to act like a lady and respect my elders because they had lived and knew more.  I was promised that when I grew up, I would be respected in turn but it was made clear to me that as a child, my parents values were the rule.

Now schools go ahead and tell children they have rights, that they deserve more.  It's the result of the uninformed village raising the children.

I was raised the same way, and believe, that is why this is such a shock...even to my system...b/c I never knew this  went on before it started happening to me....yes, every family has it's own family politics, however, you get over it, get through it...and yes, I disagree with how kids are raised to believe today...it's wrong...

Chickie...when those kids grow up, they are going to be in for a huge culture shock...most unfortunate...they won't understand what is happening to them...and it will change they're lives forever....

Our mother was very naieve...trusting and everyone was good...well, what a culture shock I had when I went out into the world...the trust I owned, got me close to killed...and that's the truth...
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 01:31:36 PM
Creme,
Why do we try so desperately to understand these women?  I see the way they talk about us.  It's pathetic.  Like we're thieves and worse.   I am so sick and tired of trying to be treated right I don't know what to do.  Maybe this is good for me. I don't like being in either one of their homes. I don't feel good there.

I have one DIL whose family are reformed alcoholics. Did I ever hold that against her?  No, never.  Yet her Mother, who has acted like an ass is shown the red carpet.

The other one, (the whispering family) has a group of nuts you wouldn't believe.  I'm trying to fit in here and I am telling ya, I don't belong.

Those boys were raised with Southern manners.  They are movie star gorgeous, educated to the nines, dress like fashion plates and are courteous totally.  Their father taught them to stand when a lady came to our table while eating out, they still do.

The girls, while beautiful, are quite "wounded".  I'm very sorry they are.  No one lived the life I did and I am very wounded but I would never treat anyone, especially my husband's parents with disrespect, ever.  That is because I love him.  Did you hear that?  I love him.

Anyone who disrespects someone's parents just for grins needs to be taken to the woodshed and spanked, hard.  These girls, in this country with no manners.  Absolutely not acceptable.  Not acceptable.  Somebody needs a hard whippin.  Yes, I said whippin.

Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 01:50:32 PM
I think we try so much and hard chickie, is for some normalcy to our lives....as I've stated so many times before...I only saw them once a year if that...so, it wasn't an issue that I was overbearing...or controlling...and I didn't want to be in they're lives as much as his dad does, and interfers....however....we know in our heart of hearts...if we can get along with our DIL's it brings peace to the whole circle...and, believe me, as much pain as we're going thru, I believe our sons are hurting just as much...so we're doing it for them to...not just us...

That time I tried talking to my DIL about this mess on the phone, I said..."Do you have any idea how much this is hurting son?"  She yelled, this isn't about him, it's about you and me??????  It is about him, it's hurting him and it just seems to me, she doesn't care...and he has chosen to bury his head in the sand and let things be as they are...and I believe honestly, he has the power to stop this...but fears doing so, b/c it would have a strain on they're marriage, and no one wants that...

But I blame him as much as her, and myself...

I wish, really wish, we could all go to counseling together....

Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 02:00:33 PM
We live in such a shifting culture. I, of course, was born in the 1920s and that goes "way" back. We, as children didn't have a sense of entitlement. It wasn't culturally appropriate to give us that image of ourselves...we had to earn it. Now, it's a given except in poverty and abuse dominated circumstances; that's the other end of the pendulum swing, of course.

I don't know how you brought up your son. If you have outlined that, and you probably have, I have lost it. I don't retain information like I used to...unfortunately.

I doubt that there is a way to bring up kids to think they don't have to do anything to deserve every thing we can possibly give them...and then expect integrity, loyalty and strength of character in return. What's wrong with that picture? I thought, when I raised my kids that the more I gave them, the better mother I was. My goal was to give them everything I'd never had and I would be a great success. My mom thought the more she taught us to cope and perform, the better mother she was.

However, some of my upbringing surfaced and I have spoken of that before: when the kids chose to leave home, they accepted adult status and could not return...except as temporary guests. And for some reason, they thought that was so solid that my grandsons were raised that way, as well. (I don't know much about how my high school and college aged great grandchildren are being raised, as they live in Paris.) My sons were also taught that a loan was a loan, not a gift, and it was only given to an adult who would keep his word...and they have. So, in some ways...I tried to straddle the cultural shift (which probably confused everyone, including me.)

Creme, your son loves his wife. In some ways that's a mystery but they definitely seem to have some kind of rapport that works for them. She makes him happy even though it's hard to see how that's possible at times. Certainly, not giving his mom a fair shake or even minimal respect doesn't make him happy...but he still finds what he wants in his marriage. All I can see that you can do is stay friends with him without discussing the "elephant in the middle of the living room" as much as possible...and keep an open mind and heart toward her, should she ever choose to face and work through her issues, i.e.: grow up.

Holding you in my heart.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Pen on March 07, 2010, 02:10:52 PM
Postscript, to put your mind at ease, in our school district we do NOT advocate disrespect for adults, and I can't imagine that any school would want disrespect from their students. If the schools had as much influence over kids as some might want to believe, we'd have every student doing all their homework every night and every high school grad going to college. They'd all obey the speed limit, exercise regularly, wear nerd clothes, and eat balanced meals every day, LOL.

I agree that rudeness and bad manners are rampant, from nasty bumperstickers to road rage to how older citizens, the disabled, or anyone "different" are treated. I think a lot of people, young and old, feel entitled and superior for whatever reason (I think Luise is right on in her last post,) which makes it justifiable to treat others poorly. They don't feel it's necessary to treat anyone who's "less" in their eyes as human.

I also think a sense of entitlement can show up in different eras in different forms (hello, segregation!), not just as rudeness in this generation. I can't imagine treating anyone like that. I was raised to respect others without discrimination of any kind (religion, gender, creed, color, income level, etc, etc.) but many kids around me were very predjudiced and rude. My sibling and I were not allowed to misbehave in public or be rude to others ever. All it took was "the look." 
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 02:15:21 PM
Oh, man...I'd forgotten about "The Look!" Talk about Fast Freeze!!!!
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 02:23:50 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 02:00:33 PM
We live in such a shifting culture. I, of course, was born in the 1920s and that goes "way" back. We, as children didn't have a sense of entitlement. It wasn't culturally appropriate to give us that image of ourselves...we had to earn it. Now, it's a given except in poverty and abuse dominated circumstances; that's the other end of the pendulum swing, of course.

I don't know how you brought up your son. If you have outlined that, and you probably have, I have lost it. I don't retain information like I used to...unfortunately.

I doubt that there is a way to bring up kids to think they don't have to do anything to deserve every thing we can possibly give them...and then expect integrity, loyalty and strength of character in return. What's wrong with that picture? I thought, when I raised my kids that the more I gave them, the better mother I was. My goal was to give them everything I'd never had and I would be a great success. My mom thought the more she taught us to cope and perform, the better mother she was.

However, some of my upbringing surfaced and I have spoken of that before: when the kids chose to leave home, they accepted adult status and could not return...except as temporary guests. And for some reason, they thought that was so solid that my grandsons were raised that way, as well. (I don't know much about how my high school and college aged great grandchildren are being raised, as they live in Paris.) My sons were also taught that a loan was a loan, not a gift, and it was only given to an adult who would keep his word...and they have. So, in some ways...I tried to straddle the cultural shift (which probably confused everyone, including me.)

Creme, your son loves his wife. In some ways that's a mystery but they definitely seem to have some kind of rapport that works for them. She makes him happy even though it's hard to see how that's possible at times. Certainly, not giving his mom a fair shake or even minimal respect doesn't make him happy...but he still finds what he wants in his marriage. All I can see that you can do is stay friends with him without discussing the "elephant in the middle of the living room" as much as possible...and keep an open mind and heart toward her, should she ever choose to face and work through her issues, i.e.: grow up.

Holding you in my heart.

Thank you Luise...I'm sending big hugs...I appreciate always your input....
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 02:28:11 PM
ahhh yes, how well I remember the look...do you also remember how we were taught to whisper in any public place as to not interfer with another person's space....or how we were taught to play quietly b/c the neighbor worked nights and was sleeping during the day....?  Do you remember, how we were so afraid of police...or at least I was...maybe that's b/c my real mother always told me that she was going to call the cops and have them lock me up in a children's home...my real mother was and still is a mess...

anyway...I know of what you speak...

Hugs
Creme
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 02:28:47 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 02:15:21 PM
Oh, man...I'd forgotten about "The Look!" Talk about Fast Freeze!!!!

LOL, yeah, and thats all it took...!!!!!
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 02:29:49 PM
all you gals are priceless, and I can't thank you enough for your support, and true words...I'm not offended easily nor by truth, even if it hurts...I believe in it and want it....

Thanks and big hugs to all of you...I do feel better, and plan to chew on all of this for a while...

Creme
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 02:31:05 PM
My knees go rubbery when I think about i! :o

Nice to have walked the walk and talked the talk with you Creme...now rest and digest.  ;)
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: catchingup on March 07, 2010, 02:38:01 PM

Cremebrulee my future daughter-in-law and I have our birthdays on the same day.
I was just thinking about what you said about birthdays.
If my DS and FDIL forget mine I will sure know I am dammed.

You mention an incident where your DIL reacted when you bathed your GD.
Did you ask her whether  you could help with the bathing.
If my MIL took the initiative and just did that without asking me I would have been mad.
I cant even tell you why I would have been mad but I think it is because I would have felt she was taking over my role as the mother.
Answer sounds so stupid.

In South Africa we celebrate the coming of age of our children when they are 21 . In Britain it is 18.
I did all the catering for my eldest and middle sons 21st and they had very successful parties.
My youngest sons FMIL walked into my home with bowls of salads and I was not even approached to ask if they could help.
As a mother it is my previlege to give my son his 21st party. I resented that.
I did not say anything at the time but years later when my FDIL was rude to me I brought it up and my son defended the FMIL
Uhhhhh. Maybe I am the Witch.

Well he gets on well with them which is a blessing. Seems they dont like his mother.

I prayed that the Lord would show him some of her imperfections seeing they are so aware of mine--whatever that may be--and lo and behold the next thing he tells me she irritates him. Funny thing to pray??? Why not ?? It worked.

These problems I read here scare me. I think I will move far away then I dont have to get into trouble.

It is hard but I do think you aught to find a hobby.Life is so short . It is not worth wasting it trying to win your DIL's Approval
I am sure you have your sons approval. It is difficult to really understand how sons think but they certainly are the ones inbetween.
I dont think they understand the magnitude of parents feelings. Too busy working and providing for a family and do not realize that mothers keep feeling hurt day in and day out.
She will be a GM one day then what?? Does she think it will be any differant?

And a big,huge,enormous hug Cremebrulee
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cocobars on March 07, 2010, 02:51:56 PM
Creme,  I just thought of something and I don't know if it will help you understand your DIL or not.  It's about her being molested as a child.  I think I remember in one of your posts you talked about it, and correct me if I'm wrong here.

When I was a child I had some abuse.  When I married I was beaten by my first husband and so on.  Now, whenever anyone, and I mean "anyone" acts irritated with me, I get a feeling in the pit of my stomach.  I always wonder if they want to beat me.  I watch their body language, the tone in their voice, the look on their face and pay close attention to how near they are getting to me.  I've learned over the years that no matter how hard I try, I always get "that" feeling in my stomach.  If I upset someone, I think they are going to be violent and lash out. It's an "instant" response" that I actually get physical symptoms from - nausea, shaking, adrenalin. 

What I'm trying to say as far as your DIL and that bath is that I don't really believe it was anything you did.  I think she may have the same problems with that part of her life.  She may have even gone to counselling (I know I did).  I know I did my best to get over the feelings and it's alot better, but I've learned I may have to live with myself for the rest of my life, as far as physical symtoms go.  I believe your DIL's reaction wasn't about you in particular, but was about her.  If she hasn't had counselling, she really would benefit from it, but may never get over it, depending on how violent it was or maybe how scared she was. I've gotten over alot of the visible signs, but nobody really see's what I'm going through inside. 

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.  I think she may not have reacted to you as much as herself...   She may carry around this scar for her entire life.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 03:03:36 PM
Here's what I've read that they say about our birthdays.  We're PA (Passive aggressive) so we give hints when our BDay is coming.  We're whiners and martyrs.  If we do one thing wrong, we're labeled, "narcissistic".  Excuse me, these narcissists must be running rampant because apparently they all happen to be Mothers in law. Imagine that.

How convenient.

How low can these girls go?  Our craptaculars (that's our family get-togethers).  Our families are called:  faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamily by them.  I wish I could line up every one of them and wring their necks.  How dare them treat people like this.  How dare them.

I cowered in fear of them for centuries.  I went on web-sites where they are and genuinely asked for help.  I was met with the most hostile group of sub-human typing robots that you have ever seen. It scared me. All of them would gang up on me and make me feel inconsolably sad. 

You have no idea how mean people can be till you've been there.  Never go to the wolfs den and ask for directions.   They eat people.  I know they enjoyed their lunch.  I swear they almost killed me.

No, they are not my DILs...please don't remind me.  I only wanted to new rules because there are new rules in the way things are done.  Believe me, it's not good either.  God help the kids and God help the world they are sending the kids into.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 03:12:38 PM
Chickie - That made me think about how holidays are for me now. I bought myself a mini-electric frying pan for my birthday gift from Val. Then I showed it to him and told him it was his gift to me. I have to be very careful how do that because on Valentine's Day, I showed him a little stuffed animal and told him that, and he hugged it and said, "Thank you!" (and then forgot all about it, of course.)  ;D ;D

(And you're welcome. I love you!)
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 03:14:16 PM
Ha!!!  I'm glad you can find humor in it, Luise.  Good for you. ;D

(thanks for doing what you did)
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Pen on March 07, 2010, 03:17:34 PM
Creme, sorry I kind of turned things. I meant to add {{{hugs}}} to you. And I agree with Coco, I think your DIL has been really hurt by someone, but not by you. Maybe she sees you as a safe place to act out - she knows you're always going to be there, at least for DS and GC, and maybe for her by default. I don't know...it's still not right to be treated poorly, no matter what the situation. I sincerely hope and pray that your family can straighten this all out. More {{{hugs}}} !

Chickie, I hear ya. The rules seem to change from day to day. It's so bizarre. I really get tense around birthdays and holidays.

Luise, that's so cute. Maybe we should all just take care of our gifts ourselves! I know I always like what I put in my own Christmas stocking :)
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Postscript on March 07, 2010, 03:36:25 PM
Pen I'm not from the USA.  Schools here teach a program about children and their rights.  Some of it seems ridiculous, a child 14 or under cannot be held criminally responsible for example, unless they commit murder.  Shoplifting children get a lift home to their parents, no consequences.  You cannot tell me a child of 5 or 8 does not know that stealing is wrong?  Children cannot be spanked by law,(not that I ever hit my children beyond a slap on the hand for danger, reasoning better a sting on the hand than electrocution/run over etc when they were preschooler), they cannot be confined (sent to their rooms) or forced in any way physically and parents can be prosecuted for all these things.  It seems our society has gone from spare the rod spoil the child all the way to children should have no consequences.  I disagree with both schools of thought and put myself in the middle somewhere.

At school there isn't any competition, a little healthy competition is good, but now everyone is a winner.  It's as though someone took the "it's not whether you win or lose but how you play" philosophy and stretched it beyond all reality.  I do feel sorry for these children when they go out into the world and find bosses who accept no excuses and have real expectations, then dole out consequences for not meeting them.

But this is off track lol.

Creme add me to Coco's school of thought.  Victims of abuse are often conditioned by their abuse.  Like a dog that cowers when you raise your hand.  Additionally they rely on cues, body language, tone of voice etc to check for threats and assess their safety.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 03:36:39 PM
Quote from: cocobars on March 07, 2010, 02:51:56 PM
Creme,  I just thought of something and I don't know if it will help you understand your DIL or not.  It's about her being molested as a child.  I think I remember in one of your posts you talked about it, and correct me if I'm wrong here.

When I was a child I had some abuse.  When I married I was beaten by my first husband and so on.  Now, whenever anyone, and I mean "anyone" acts irritated with me, I get a feeling in the pit of my stomach.  I always wonder if they want to beat me.  I watch their body language, the tone in their voice, the look on their face and pay close attention to how near they are getting to me.  I've learned over the years that no matter how hard I try, I always get "that" feeling in my stomach.  If I upset someone, I think they are going to be violent and lash out. It's an "instant" response" that I actually get physical symptoms from - nausea, shaking, adrenalin. 

What I'm trying to say as far as your DIL and that bath is that I don't really believe it was anything you did.  I think she may have the same problems with that part of her life.  She may have even gone to counselling (I know I did).  I know I did my best to get over the feelings and it's alot better, but I've learned I may have to live with myself for the rest of my life, as far as physical symtoms go.  I believe your DIL's reaction wasn't about you in particular, but was about her.  If she hasn't had counselling, she really would benefit from it, but may never get over it, depending on how violent it was or maybe how scared she was. I've gotten over alot of the visible signs, but nobody really see's what I'm going through inside. 

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.  I think she may not have reacted to you as much as herself...   She may carry around this scar for her entire life.

Hi coco, thanks so much for writing and sharing...I know it can't be easy to relive that....because, I went thru the same thing as you did as a child...however, I did seek out counseling...and it's all better now, except that knot in the pit of your stomach when you think you've upset someone...I get it to...I consider myself, one of the most fortunate gals on the face of this planet, as I had foster parents take over rearing me...they knew what was going on and were kind enough to take me in...it wasn't anything legal...they were neighbors...and I don't know if you remember, the show the Honeymooners...but I hated that show, b/c he scared me, I always thought he was going to hit her...and the yelling and screaming is what I grew up with...I saw one of my step father's beat my real mom so badly, she couldn't go to work for a week, she was all black and blue...she was to embarrassed to go to the hospital....

I do not and never will condone violence...however, I stood by and watched my real mother provoke her men into hitting her...she was evil...she beat me up all the time...and I wasn't a bad kid, I feared her...and always thought I was adopted b/c no real mother would treat her child like this....my cousin's saw it to...and to this day, one of them constantly tells me, how she couldn't believe how mean my mother was to me....she always says, you were a good kid...

I to was sexually abused as a child...but I got thru it, I don't know how....I'm strong willed and wanted to be a good woman. I remember reading somewhere when I was a child, that sometimes, sexually abused kids turn into sexual abusers...and that scared the livin daylights out of me, so I went to counseling and poured out my soul.  This was before my son was born...the counselor said, that I was a strong woman...and we worked together on this for awhile...I got rid of the anger, and embarrassement, along with the feelings that it  was my fault...and get this...I didn't tell anyone about it for a long time, b/c I was the oldest, and I thought, If I told and I wasn't allowed to go to that household any longer, then he would abuse my cousins and they were all younger then me...it was they're father...later, when I grew older, and we started talking about it, I found out, it didn't matter, he was abusing his own daughters anyway...

So today, I've learned to put it in the past....my girl cousins are not so lucky...they've had severe problems over the years....

I don't know for certain...if my DIL was abused, it's something my son told me about years ago before they were married...that he suspected...she didn't talk to much about what happened to  her, however, he mother kept abandoning her and her siblings, as well as her brother and sister...she was left to pretty much raise herself...but I will tell you this, there is plenty of baggage, just from her raising herself....and I believe that is why she is so selfish and unthinking of the feelings of others...I also feel, that there is a slight possiblity she may have rejected me, before I could reject her...I dunno....people do not do things for one reason...It's difficult sometimes to feel compassion for her, and other time, my heart bleeds for her...and I do understand why she may have reacted that way...that is the first thing my girlfriend asked me after I told her about it...was she abused as a child?

I dunno what sparked those things, but I will tell you this...and remember, we all think differently about things...however, I observe families who are functioning...and the DIL's allow they're children to stay over at mom mom's and pop pops...we did as well, it was quality time with our grandparents that we looked forward to...my dil would never allow that...she is and this I'm not imagining, very territorial about her daughter and her husband...and she is standoffish...no one gets in, unless she says so...

So your thoughts are not off base.


Cathing up...while I so appreciate your comments...again, the bath thing  comes down to how you were raised....years ago, we all took baths together to save water....and giving a child a bath isn't a bad thing...adding...I did it to help her, not hurt her or overstep any boundaries...and it saddens me that you would get upset about it...that is part of a mother, what a mother does...we are nurturers...and by the way...I say this with all kindness and respect...all of my girlfriends, my cousins, get they're grandchildren overnight...they give them baths...she was a small baby then, when I did it...we had been playing outside all day...except for her nap, she was a bit dirty and I didn't want to take her home like that...I feared her getting mad at me for letting my GD get dirty...guess I as wrong....

while we all do things differently, according to the way we were raised...I see nothing wrong with giving my GD a bath...and by the way, I babysat sometimes for 7 little one's at one time...I was a Sunday School teacher and youth group advisor...when ever I hear about a child being molested in this world, I become so angry with our society, that we don't get these perps off the streets for good...some abuse as many as hundreds of children, and I become so very angry that society doesn't insist that these men and woman who abuse children are put away for life.  I feel, it is our jobs to protect our children....no matter if they are ours or not...so, I'm extra sensitive about that subject, and cry my heart out when ever I hear about a young child being abused...it isn't fair...that we as a society, allow this to continue...it changes that child's life forever, takes away they're trust for man kind...and scars them for life...and yet, we have more feelings for the perps...a sick man or woman who would take advantage of a child's innocence and destroy them....

So, yeah, while you may be right..I don't see the wrong in what I did...and it hurt me something awful to see her act like that...and yet, every weekend she bought that child to me to watch...and I am working full time?  I wanted her but it surely did wear me out....so why?  Did I really do that wrong.

As far as your party for your son...I can understand your feelings....however...there are people that always over bring stuff...not because they want to top you or hurt you, but they want to contribute...then you have people who bring nothing....so, what I'm saying is...if I were having a party, and I do entertain a lot, I don't get upset if people bring things that I never asked them to bring....I know they feel better contributing...so, for me, it's not a big deal.  Please remember, I'm not saying your wrong and I'm right...I don't believe they're is a right or wrong answer, it is simply how each individual feels.

Please believe me when I say, this with the utmost respect...but telling me to find a hobby...hun, this has been going on for 12 years, and as hard as you imagine it to be, it's even harder...I do have hobbies, go on vacations, and get involved with the community...due to my health, I've been house bounded more so now, so, it's difficult to get to involved, as rest is very important along with peace in my life....however, a hobby doesn't fill the loss of a son and daughter, let alone a GD...when they were home for a year, I was watching her every single weekend, both Sat. and Sun and it was quit difficult for me, to have them leave...however, I realized, they needed to continue they're journey...I can't tell you enough, how I'm able to let people go and move on to experience life...I don't ask people questions, which a lot of my friends think is quite odd...I figure, if they want to tell me things...they will, and those things they confide in me, are not to be repeated....it's who I am...I'm not clingy and can't stand being smothered...and I only saw my son, once a year if that...so how hard would it be, to get along for a few days? 

A lot of the stuff I've comlained about my DIL are small things...but add to the hurt...and I'm sure there were times when I read her reactions wrong...however, I do know, there is something not right here...and never has been since day one...she rejected me from the very beginning...

However, please know in all sincerity, I do appreicate your feedback and advice...gives me food for thought...yes, maybe I did do wrong...I dunno?  It seems I couldn't do anything right...and it made me so tense and fearful...there came a time, when I even feared showing my son attention or love, or hugging him in front of her...I tried so hard to be more attentive to her....I don't know...I don't know...she refuses to discuss it with me, therefore, I can only surmise....I know I upset her and for that I'm sorry...so sorry, I just didn't know, I did things the way I was raised to do them....

catching up....you also stated that someday she's going to be a grandmother, and how will she be...

it's no consulation for all this precious time I've lost with them...precious time...I'm not long for this world...time is growing short...and I'm faced with dying without resolving this...that I will never know my son again...that my DIL hates me...and my GD is now 7 and I may never see her again...

DIL holds the trump card, she says where they can and can't go...and I believe when this all started years ago...I knew, and feared and was in denial, yet, in my heart of hearts...cathing up...a person doesn't act like she did towards me, unless she is trying to push me away....my son says I'm crazy for feeling that, thinking it...but I know it's true...a mother knows...she does...and  it makes life a living hell sometimes...it's so hurtful...there is nothing you can do or say to resolve it...and go forward...it's like a dark cloud that follows you around every waking hour...some days are good, some not so good...but it is very painful and heartbreaking and does most definately take a toll on one's health.  This is worse then anything I've ever experienced in my life, and I have experiences a lot...


Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 03:38:10 PM
Often people aren't aware of what causes their reactions. The program is way deep down in the unconscious where the old trauma is stored and is explained away because they're pretty much stuck with it.

I learned this from my very close friend who died last May. Something would drop me in my tracks and I would be on my lips...convinced that my reaction and behavior were very logical. Then something similar would happened to her and she'd laugh! I mean it...howl. Some one would be terribly rude to her and she'd look at me questioningly and say something like..."Doesn't she have a weird point of view?"...and  actually laugh. I started using what I called The Dotte Test in my life...like, "OK, what would Dotte say (or do) if this happened to her?"  I started seeing that my perspectives were so subjective. I had a very wobbly self-image and she thought very highly of herself.  ;D

I know it takes a long time to get to where that can be factored in. People are often fighting unseen, forgotten or unknown tigers...and it's not about us at all.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 03:48:56 PM
QuotePostscript
Creme add me to Coco's school of thought.  Victims of abuse are often conditioned by their abuse.  Like a dog that cowers when you raise your hand.  Additionally they rely on cues, body language, tone of voice etc to check for threats and assess their safety.

often times yes...they are...however...I wouldn't allow it to ruin my life...but, as I said, I'm strong willed...I know, deep in my heart of hearts, that my DIL hates me...no, fears me...and I really do feel, she had so little confidence, that she may have decided, she was going to reject me, before I could reject her...maybe my son told her how cut and dry I was, or how strict I am...and she and I are certainly not from the same school...that is for certain....

As mean as I thought my MIL was to me at times...I could have never rejected her or refused to go see her...somethings you gotta just let roll off your back...it's family and there  was no way, I wanted to cause trouble between my MIL and her son...and it was very hard.
But I was also mature enough to see deeper into why she was doig those things...not b/c she didn't like me, but b/c it was who she was...and all she wanted to do was love and be loved...in her own way...not mine...she was a very giving MIL...and my sister in law and I spoke of this often...and she advised me to start saying no to her..I couldn't...I didn't want to hurt her feelings...it would have been so foreign to her...besides...she was an older person, and I as raised to respect older people, mothers and fathers...it's a whole different world today....and I loved her and still do, to this day...but she was at times a real thorn in my side...

Why I could zip it with my own MIL and not with my DIL I'll never know...why did I allow DIL to push my buttons?  If I would have ignored everything, we wouldn't be having this problem to day...so, it's my fault as well...and it makes me so angry that I couldn't zip it....
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 03:50:31 PM
Postscripts are you kidding me?  Children can't be sent to their rooms by their parents? What in the world?  This is not good, to put it mildly.  Why have them if you can't train them?

Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 03:52:53 PM
Sadly, I guess Coco and you and me have something in common, Creme.  I would never take it out on anyone else.  Just the other way around.  I take it out on me. 

Coco...I'm pulling for you. You are a strong and wonderful woman.  We adore you. :'(
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Postscript on March 07, 2010, 04:00:33 PM
Chickie according to the letter of the law yup.  What thankfully has been done is that the Police have the discretion as to whether or not to prosecute.  The not so good side is whether or not they prosecute, notification is made to our dept of childrens services regardless.

Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 04:01:27 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 03:38:10 PM
Often people aren't aware of what causes their reactions. The program is way deep down in the unconscious where the old trauma is stored and is explained away because they're pretty much stuck with it.

I learned this from my very close friend who died last May. Something would drop me in my tracks and I would be on my lips...convinced that my reaction and behavior were very logical. Then something similar would happened to her and she'd laugh! I mean it...howl. Some one would be terribly rude to her and she'd look at me questioningly and say something like..."Doesn't she have a weird point of view?"...and  actually laugh. I started using what I called The Dotte Test in my life...like, "OK, what would Dotte say (or do) if this happened to her?"  I started seeing that my perspectives were so subjective. I had a very wobbly self-image and she thought very highly of herself.  ;D

I know it takes a long time to get to where that can be factored in. People are often fighting unseen, forgotten or unknown tigers...and it's not about us at all.

Very good idea...well from now on, I'm going to try so hard to apply the Dottie Test to my own life...I wish, so much, I could have done that years ago when this all started...just laughed to myself....it's common knowledge amongst family that my DIL is like this...I'm talking about my son's father's family...however, they just try to ignore her bad manners and it has worked for them...however, today my son told me, that they say and do things that hurt her as well...she is not able to understand, they mean no harm or personal attack against her...it's them, the way they think and feel, however, she is convinced they don't like her sometimes.......ya wonder, after a while you'd think she'd say to herself..yanno, I've got some problems I have to deal with, and seek out counseling to understand, that just b/c someone disagrees with her, doesn't mean they don't like her or are putting her down...however, I have read, that sometimes, when you do that to these people, it upsets they're whole world, they feel like your saying to them, all they have known, how they think and feel is wrong...and it unbalances and un nerves them...sad...
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 04:03:38 PM
Quote from: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 03:52:53 PM
Sadly, I guess Coco and you and me have something in common, Creme.  I would never take it out on anyone else.  Just the other way around.  I take it out on me. 

Coco...I'm pulling for you. You are a strong and wonderful woman.  We adore you. :'(

I used to be pretty hard on myself years ago...perhaps that is why I am able to understand my DIL to some degree....however, over the years, and through counseling I was able to build self esteem and counseling...and I stopped trying to please everyone else and live my life to the best that I knew how....the last thing on earth I wanted to be was my real mother...or a hurtful person...and when I was very young, I knew I was selfish...but I wanted change, and so badly I could taste it...I never wanted to hurt anyone the way I was hurt....
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 04:12:59 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 03:38:10 PM
Often people aren't aware of what causes their reactions. The program is way deep down in the unconscious where the old trauma is stored and is explained away because they're pretty much stuck with it.

I learned this from my very close friend who died last May. Something would drop me in my tracks and I would be on my lips...convinced that my reaction and behavior were very logical. Then something similar would happened to her and she'd laugh! I mean it...howl. Some one would be terribly rude to her and she'd look at me questioningly and say something like..."Doesn't she have a weird point of view?"...and  actually laugh. I started using what I called The Dotte Test in my life...like, "OK, what would Dotte say (or do) if this happened to her?"  I started seeing that my perspectives were so subjective. I had a very wobbly self-image and she thought very highly of herself.  ;D

I know it takes a long time to get to where that can be factored in. People are often fighting unseen, forgotten or unknown tigers...and it's not about us at all.

your absolutely correct, and as one had mentioned, please forgive me for forgetting which one of you gals suggested this, maybe I'm her punching bag...maybe she needs to hurt me to survive, otherwise, it might mean, her husband would give me attention that would take away from her...I don't know...?

I will say this...I believe she really does fear me...she's embarrassed and very mixed up...I just wish she would realize, I'm not one of those tigers...and would love to be her friend...we could both learn so much from each other, not to mention...everyone would be so happy....

Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 04:15:05 PM
Everyone, please know, I'm so appreciative for you all, that you not only took the time to read this, but to also comment...and I don't mind if you disagree with me...or get upset...or if you say I was wrong...thank you for being so brave and honest in doing so...also, just venting and thinking out loud helps a lot...

I love you all...your all such kind women....
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 04:27:25 PM
well, that's good, Creme....I've messed around and made myself sick.  I have a sore throat....I got so mad at all this abuse of a son's mother.  I don't allow myself ever to get mad so it's a new experience for me, kinda.  I think I've done it before on here, though. Thsi is the only place I can vent.  I vented 8).   Now, I'm sick :-[ 

That's just perfect.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 04:32:24 PM
Postscript...the whole world has gone nuts.  The kids here never lose either. Everyone gets a trophy on the team.  My Lord!  Just wait till life get hold of them.  It's gonna be too wet to plow.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 07, 2010, 04:33:35 PM
Chickie, shame on you.... :)  we're a support group of friends...we get to vent, we get to say things that are embarrassing...we bring them up from our hearts...and we get angry, hurt, sad, we cry, we laugh...heck...that's what life is...and for me, it's very helpful...don't be sick...I'm so thankful you joined in...now, I'm pinging you....and by the way, please know, I don't believe I'd be as far along as I am, if it were not for all you ladies....thank you....

Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 04:37:01 PM
Thank you, creme...I am really sick, though. Dadgummit....I guess it's not good to get this mad.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: renny97 on March 07, 2010, 05:32:24 PM
Oooooh, I love ya, Chickie. You take things so to heart, you've made yourself sick. Oh, girl. Have to have another prayer post. Remember; breathe.

Creme,
I have something interesting I have noted from your story. (Angle)

You stated both you and DIL were abused. And, others have mentioned that she is lashing out at you because of the childhood abuse. I kind of agree, when she latched the child from your arms. But, as you also stated; this just seems to be her nature. I am not psych doc, but her "clutchiness" does seem to come from almost "owning" her new family and in her view "protecting" them--to the point of overdoing it. So, you had the MIL stigma + her "wall" from the world. That is some bad math/odds.

But, as you started to realize, that scenario could be sooooo turned into a better situation for the two of you! But, she is young, and everyone has their own coping skills or not. But, here's the other thought; it sounds simple at first, but, think of the issue between you (black cloud--as you say) and her as the "abuse cloud." Since everything seems to come from that part of her, that is really WHAT she is reacting to. AND, therefore, that is how you figure out how to deal with her! I hope I made myself clear.

Wow, this really gives me awareness as to how other problems are created. If we would react to the "hurts from the tigers of the past" as Luise called em or similar (instead of just words), we stand a better chance of realizing the madness. This takes extraordinary MIL's and others to accommodate and understand--but if there is ever a link, that has to be it. People REACT from hurt and ACT on hurts and not even know it, if it becomes routine enough. I am sure we have all done that on some level.

So, she may not even realize fully what has been going on all these years or why. Thus, all those bizarre statements she made towards you...really, off-the-wall. I've had those shell-shocked reactions to things DIL says at a specific time.

They don't even realize how close to the surface their hurts get.
Is she aware of the abuse you suffered? Instead of bonding, it is like that continued to be a source of more trauma.

Some of her manner issues may be from not seeing it mirrored.

It is sad, all of it.

Your son is very good to her, but I would not excuse the yelling of ANYthing! I am sorry for what happened to her, but we cannot all walk around taking stuff out on people at random. As you know, I am done with "mouth."  I do think manners is a big part of it all too.

I got some more info from that Dwayne D. seminar on TV. Imagine that everything in your life was cured. HOW would that FEEL? Money? Fam drama? Just imagine that feeling. That wonderful feeling of being Freeee!
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 05:53:04 PM
I was thinking of your saying"I  don't know," Creme. I'm sure she doesn't, either.

Chickie - I have done that. I've brought up feelings I didn't know how to cope with and have converted them to physical issues so I could deal with something tangible. (All without realizing it at the time, of course.) It's called a "conversion reaction", I think. May not be what you are doing...but it's a survival tool for when when I get too overwhelmed.

Sending love!
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 06:13:27 PM
Luise, that is so true about converting the feelings into something physical.  I've always done that...I wish I could stop it.

Renny, I know there's some kind of excuse to offer for the abuse from people but really, can't they just get themselves sick like I have so other people don't become the brunt of their rage?
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: renny97 on March 07, 2010, 06:40:06 PM
Creme,
I meant to add that I'd try to stay away from Facebook. It can't help, viewing chats from son and DIL. Ewwww... :-\ Ren
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 08:14:28 PM
Chickie - Me, too regarding getting sick when facing rage or fear; usually it's asthma or violent diarrhea. Taking it out on myself is the only way I ;earned to get through acute conflict. I wasn't heard when I was little and so I never learned how to do that. I learned that it was dangerous to speak up and that no one wanted to hear it. Also, punishment followed. (No entitlement in my background. )

For everyone:  I don't agree that this is a good place to vent. I think we have to be very careful not to aim it at anyone specific...either a member and someone in the member's family. I know it's hard to do "I" statements when we're upset instead of "you" statements (or at least it is for me)...but we need to do that. "I feel angry about this" not "you (or your family) member is_____"; fill in the blank.

Most of us are here because we are dealing with heavy issues. We're often sensitive and fragile and although it is never our intent to hurt each other, we can do that if we're not careful. "I'm sorry" is never an eraser. We can't take back what was said.

Please take any other variety of venting (beside "I" statements) to your Word program and have at it. Then come back when you can be more cautious.

If anyone doesn't agree with this...please remember that I am coming from being protective. I'm asking you to work at finding a way to go along with it, whether you agree with me or not. Thanks.

Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 08, 2010, 05:06:49 AM
Quoterenny
Creme,
I have something interesting I have noted from your story. (Angle)

Hi Renny and Good Morning!

QuoteYou stated both you and DIL were abused. And, others have mentioned that she is lashing out at you because of the childhood abuse. I kind of agree, when she latched the child from your arms. But, as you also stated; this just seems to be her nature. I am not psych doc, but her "clutchiness" does seem to come from almost "owning" her new family and in her view "protecting" them--to the point of overdoing it. So, you had the MIL stigma + her "wall" from the world. That is some bad math/odds.

Your right, she is extremely territorial...especially with my son...I don't believe she has a jealous nature, she does trust him, but extremely territorial when it comes to her family, and yes, it is an ownership. 

QuoteBut, as you started to realize, that scenario could be sooooo turned into a better situation for the two of you! But, she is young, and everyone has their own coping skills or not. But, here's the other thought; it sounds simple at first, but, think of the issue between you (black cloud--as you say) and her as the "abuse cloud." Since everything seems to come from that part of her, that is really WHAT she is reacting to. AND, therefore, that is how you figure out how to deal with her! I hope I made myself clear.

So how do I do that, when from the very beginning, she has been this way towards me...?  She won't let me in or even close...?  Yanno, heres a strange thing...on the way back to the airport, my son stopped in to purchase something....we went with him...I was sitting down, and she walked over to me, and I said something about the weather....she gave me that awful mean look of hers, then walked away, to the front of the store and sat there spacing out, looking like the victim...????  And that was the icing on the cake for me, it hurts so much when she treats me like that...she just looks at me, like I'm some kind of ass hole, doesn't respond and walks away?????  But in front of my son, she is so sweet to me....I don't get that?  Why?  And I'm not following you, how can I use that to help us mend our differences....?

QuoteWow, this really gives me awareness as to how other problems are created. If we would react to the "hurts from the tigers of the past" as Luise called em or similar (instead of just words), we stand a better chance of realizing the madness.

Can you explain this to me, sorry, but I don't understand

QuoteThis takes extraordinary MIL's and others to accommodate and understand--but if there is ever a link, that has to be it. People REACT from hurt and ACT on hurts and not even know it, if it becomes routine enough. I am sure we have all done that on some level.

Yanno, this part of your post...reminded me of something else my DIL does...and this is strickly to help others understand....my DIL learned how to get attention, by play acting...I remember we were in the store, buying some food, and she got all overwhelmed and said to me..."Creme, where's the soda", like she was really scared...I said, come on, we'll go find it...however, she is so used to craving attention, that she'll do anything to get it...it's a learned behavior from little on up....she must have excessive attention all the time, especially when I'm there...and my son loves it...it makes him feel needed...plus I believe my son is a take over kind of guy....controlling in his own way...he takes care of all the bills, shopping, etc...and it works for them....however, now that he is gone, perhaps they will both appreciate each other a little more, cuz now she is in charge...and has to do all this stuff, which is a good thing....

QuoteSo, she may not even realize fully what has been going on all these years or why. Thus, all those bizarre statements she made towards you...really, off-the-wall. I've had those shell-shocked reactions to things DIL says at a specific time.

You may be right, I know she doesn't realize..it is her MO, who she is.  However, one very bad thing which will be stagnating for her is, she is never wrong, it's never her fault, it's always everyone else's fault.  She doesn't know how to say, I'm sorry or even acknowledge or take ownership in something she's done....?

QuoteThey don't even realize how close to the surface their hurts get.
Is she aware of the abuse you suffered?

I don't know if my son told her or not, however, I do know, that she is not able to talk about things..ever...I believe she considers it, embarrassing...
once, we were discussing a friend of hers, a long time friend, who had a business and she was purchasing things off of her...apparently this friends boyfriend, stole charge card numbers and used them, my DIL's being one of them....while discussing this....I mentioned that her friend needs to find out why she chose such a low life person for a mate...and DIL went off on me, saying, "she's a very nice reputable person, yada yada..."  she doesn't get it....

QuoteInstead of bonding, it is like that continued to be a source of more trauma.
Some of her manner issues may be from not seeing it mirrored.

could you explain this part to me, I'm not getting it?  And please forgive me, it's me this morning, in a fog...


QuoteYour son is very good to her, but I would not excuse the yelling of ANYthing! I am sorry for what happened to her, but we cannot all walk around taking stuff out on people at random. As you know, I am done with "mouth."  I do think manners is a big part of it all too.

your always walking on egg shells with her, b/c so many comments people make, she takes seriously as a grave personal attack against her character...when in fact, that is simply how people are...it's not directed at her...but I believe she is still so insecure, that she doesn't understand, and her feelings get hurt right away....sad...she's missing so much....


QuoteI got some more info from that Dwayne D. seminar on TV. Imagine that everything in your life was cured. HOW would that FEEL? Money? Fam drama? Just imagine that feeling. That wonderful feeling of being Freeee!

I know this may sound silly to some, however, I strongly believe freedom is a state of mind, b/c I've been there several times...it's like an out of body experience....and it's so peaceful so exzillerating...almost like understanding your a part of every living thing...and there is no care in the world..only peace, happiness and contentment....maybe I'll write about it sometime?

Thanks so much hun....wishing you well
Hugs
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 08, 2010, 05:08:37 AM
Quote from: renny97 on March 07, 2010, 06:40:06 PM
Creme,
I meant to add that I'd try to stay away from Facebook. It can't help, viewing chats from son and DIL. Ewwww... :-\ Ren

Hi Renney, My son writes me through Facebook and I don't know why?  Maybe it's easier for him to do so...and I do see...it saddens me the way, she never initiates a comment to him....but then that's who she is, and, to boot, they seem to be very content with the way things are, who am I to judge....it's so unfair of me to do that....

Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 08, 2010, 05:14:49 AM
I sure will, Luise, I it's any consolation for my ranting, I'm sick today.  I wish, "I'm sorry would do but other than that, I don't know what to do.  I hope and pray I didn't hurt someone.  That's the last thing I'd ever want to do.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 08, 2010, 05:17:24 AM
Quote from: 2chickiebaby on March 08, 2010, 05:14:49 AM
I sure will, Luise, I it's any consolation for my ranting, I'm sick today.  I wish, "I'm sorry would do but other than that, I don't know what to do.  I hope and pray I didn't hurt someone.  That's the last thing I'd ever want to do.

Chickie, Good Morning...I hope you feel better as the day goes forward....

Hugs
Creme
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 08, 2010, 05:49:58 AM
yanno another thing that is a flag is...that he told me, in the beginning, when all this first started, she said, she felt like my son didn't believe her and didn't back her....God as my witness, she lied to him about things....but he doesn't know that, and I'll never be the one to tell him...so what that says to me is, she could very well be one of those people who actually believes her own lies...??????? 

I know it sounds like I'm making excuses for her, in a way I am...however...I do know the trama she's been through as a child...doesn't excuse her hurting others the way she has...doesn't excuse my son's behavior through all of this...I'm just trying to understand her better...it helps when you start to realize, the reason's why and I want to thank you all for your time, and input....

Hugs
Creme
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: renny97 on March 08, 2010, 08:11:54 AM
Morning, Creme,
I just wanted to say how sorry I am if I came across as excusing DIL's behavior.

I should have listened to my own advice about waiting "one more day" to respond. In my effort to help, it may have come across as an attack. I was just trying to understand someone's comments like that. In trying to understand, I go too far, even hypothetical examples, to understand. I guess, there just is no answer that I can see. But, for me to do that in your situation was totally wrong. It is the "why" of it, and I don't know if I will fully know that answer.

I was not doubting what you were saying. I know, how painful that is--when someone "goes there" or we may feel they are suggesting we didn't experience it...I was not trivializing your pain.

I am terribly sorry. I need to learn to be more constructive.

Ren
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 08, 2010, 08:22:10 AM
Quote from: renny97 on March 08, 2010, 08:11:54 AM
Morning, Creme,
I just wanted to say how sorry I am if I came across as excusing DIL's behavior.

I should have listened to my own advice about waiting "one more day" to respond. In my effort to help, it may have come across as an attack. I was just trying to understand someone's comments like that. In trying to understand, I go too far, even hypothetical examples, to understand. I guess, there just is no answer that I can see. But, for me to do that in your situation was totally wrong. It is the "why" of it, and I don't know if I will fully know that answer.

I was not doubting what you were saying. I know, how painful that is--when someone "goes there" or we may feel they are suggesting we didn't experience it...I was not trivializing your pain.

I am terribly sorry. I am sorry for the confusion. I will refrain from the site and posting. I need to learn to be more constructive.

Ren

Renny, I don't think you did or said anything wrong...honest...I'm very appreciative for your advice and feedback...and I honestly didn't take it as if you were doubting me, I just wanted to know more about what you were thinking...

Yanno, we gals, all of us...need to understand, we all think and feel differently about things...and it's ok to do so...we can't all agree all of the time...and to me, I want constructive feedback, even if it disagrees with what I'm thinking, and I'm not saying yours did....but what I don't want is for people to agree with me if they don't...how else is one to learn? 

Renny, I do so appreciate what you have to offer and what you said...please don't feel like you did or said something wrong, you didn't? Honest ta goodness....and never apologize for your true feelings, that is who you are, your identity....

you didn't come across as you were excusing my DIL's behavior....and by the way, sometimes the best things come out spiratically...

it even says in the Bible, don't premeditate what your going to say, just say it....

and the things you wrote that I asked if you'd explain, I really couldn't comprehend what you meant, but want to...and hope you will continue to respond...you've always given such constructive caring feedback, along with everyone else in here...

I hope I didn't say anything to make you feel this way....I enjoyed your post and feel most of what your saying is very valid, as well as others who have offered...

I don't think anything you said was wrong...off base...I thought we were having a very productive conversation....and enjoying your perspectives....

was it because I said, how do I do that?  Because I meant it...I wanted to know what you would do...I'm not saying I would do exactly as others in here tell  me to do, however, everything everyone tells me, really has helped...including your feedback...please come back...I'm not understanding the reasons why you seem to be hurt...was it something I wrote or said? 

You are a very very insightful woman who has offered so much to so many!!!!!





Hugs and love
Creme
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 08, 2010, 09:10:36 AM
Hugs and Pings to both of you...you are doing what this site offers...interacting, supporting, questioning, clarifying, healing. It isn't easy when all we have is words...but they have been known to save lives. I think Creme is telling you that you're very important here, Ren. Please know that I agree with that! We all matter...a lot!  ;D

Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 08, 2010, 09:24:13 AM
Quote from: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 08:14:28 PM
Chickie - Me, too regarding getting sick when facing rage or fear; usually it's asthma or violent diarrhea. Taking it out on myself is the only way I ;earned to get through acute conflict. I wasn't heard when I was little and so I never learned how to do that. I learned that it was dangerous to speak up and that no one wanted to hear it. Also, punishment followed. (No entitlement in my background. )

For everyone:  I don't agree that this is a good place to vent. I think we have to be very careful not to aim it at anyone specific...either a member and someone in the member's family. I know it's hard to do "I" statements when we're upset instead of "you" statements (or at least it is for me)...but we need to do that. "I feel angry about this" not "you (or your family) member is_____"; fill in the blank.

Most of us are here because we are dealing with heavy issues. We're often sensitive and fragile and although it is never our intent to hurt each other, we can do that if we're not careful. "I'm sorry" is never an eraser. We can't take back what was said.

Please take any other variety of venting (beside "I" statements) to your Word program and have at it. Then come back when you can be more cautious.

If anyone doesn't agree with this...please remember that I am coming from being protective. I'm asking you to work at finding a way to go along with it, whether you agree with me or not. Thanks.

When facing anger, I usually vent, even if it's to my dog...or to myself...or write it down...

I have pretty much the same thing as you Louise...it goes right to my stess points in my body....

I think this is a good point for discussion though...

I believe when we address someone, in this forum...we shouldn't be afraid to say what we think and how we feel...however, name calling should be a no no...using medical terms is a different story, saying things like, oh that person is mentally dysfunctional, is ok...or things like that, however, if we are so engrossed, and personally/emotionally upset, I think we should all step back and wait before we post something that is out of anger and going to come off mean spirited...and I'm talking to myself here as well...it's a good thing to do...and a very good point made....Luise....

I know I have surely had my moments, and said and done some wrong things...yanno, there was a time, when I was so angry at my DIL...I would call her names...but I didn't mean it and now, am truely embarrassed by it...what if she would have seen those words...that was so wrong of me...now, I'm calmer, not as hurt and trying to understand her more, and also take ownership for my misgivings. 

I tell you true...when we get angry...the most horrible things come out, and we should not give in to anger...or fear....we should always put ourselves in the shoes of others hearing us, before we spout horrible words about people we're angry at, at the moment...

Words can kill, is what a minister used to tell us...as if you took a gun to that person's head and pulled the trigger....

I am responsible for saying the most God awful things about my DIL...I'm ashamed, embarrassed and so so sorry....words can never be taken back...and I don't hate my DIL, I'm hurt and angry b/c she doesn't like me, she wouldn't accept me...and we women can sometimes be the most God awful vindicitive and nasty people on the face of this earth...I've said this 100 times, that I'd never work for another woman....

I wish I was more like a man...men say things, get angry at each other, take a swipe at one another, then go out for a beer and become best friends...why do we women, never forget, and carry on hate?  Why do we women, or I should say...why did I surcom to all the evil that I was feeling...and act on it in a very inexcusable way....?  I am so sorry for that and I can never correct it...and, to be honest...all I wanted to do, was love my DIL, and became hurt and angry b/c she rejected me....then I rejected her, then everything she and I did, became elevated and a personal attack against each other....why did I respond like such a child?  If I could take back my reactions to her behavior...heyyyyyy, and yanno what...maybe I'm not as angry at her....maybe, just maybe this is misdirected anger at her for the way "I" have acted, b/c I am embarrassed....??????? 

Something to think about...
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 08, 2010, 09:35:53 AM
Oh, Creme - What can I do? When i vent at my dog, he sleeps through it! (Maybe there's a message in that, right?

Seriously, your post was very thought-provoking. Thank you. :)
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Sassy on March 08, 2010, 10:22:30 AM
Creme I don't have time to read the replies but I just checked in for a quick "lunch" w/ the ladies. Read just your first post.

Based on that, it wasn't rejection, Creme.  You had a heartfelt talk with your son.  He heard you out.  You can believe some of what your son said to be, what he wants to feel is true (thereby his truth).  And I heard an open door.

DS seems open to seeing you again, when you are ready, when he comes back.  DIL will likely be her same distant self, not warm, sloppy manners.  I hope maybe DIL can remain calm and cool long enough for an afternoon visit with your DS and grand-daughter, if DS's in your town.   If you visit them, or if they stay longer than an afternoon with you, it's probably true that she will not have learned any manners in the interim.  If you expect DIL may bolt after meals, and whisper to him sometimes,  DS may still snuggle on the couch w/her and hold hands w/her walking as 2, be cause that's just what they do anyway, then maybe it won't feel personal.   (Though I'd only ever consider visiting to see them, when he is available to visit the whole time too, because she will not make much attempt to entertain guests when he's not. )  The less one on one time with DIL, surely the nicer the visit will go anyway.

This was the first impression I got of this conversation.  I'm hoping you got a sense of peace by getting to explain to DS how you experienced the last visit,  a sense of hope for an explanation of parts of it from him (from how he has to see it), and hope for future visits with your granddaughter, if you can stand DIL's probably unchanged manners for a spell.  DIL is DIL.  But you might be able to see her rude ways differently.  Like her behavior is not personal towards you, but bad manners consistent with that of a rude person.  (I offer this only as a possible option to consider, not as advice.)

I will come back later to catch up on other responses.  I hope for you Creme this exchange, while difficult to have, has you feeling a bit better about things possibly moving forward now, if - when you are ready.     


     
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 08, 2010, 10:34:53 AM
Creme, this is such good advice that Sassy gave you. 
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Barbie on March 08, 2010, 11:14:59 AM
Creme,
Never lose hope but we have to be realistic in our expectations. Speaking from my own experience, I don't think our dil's are interested in having a relashionship with us, therefore it is more than likely that they're not going to change. I've seen my dil 3 times since Thanksgiving and each time it took every once of strength in me to put on a happy face, my son really wants us in his life so I made a pact with him that I would keep my mouth shut, I'm a very opinionated person, it runs in the family so the visits haven't been that pleasant.
Don't feel sorry or embarrased for the way you reacted in the past, there's nothing that could have prevented your behavior, since you didn't know back then what you know now. The only way that i know to move forward is to let go of the past, believe me, I know it isn't easy but don't torture yourself thinking about what could of been, it's not worth it.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 08, 2010, 12:09:57 PM
Sassy
QuoteCreme I don't have time to read the replies but I just checked in for a quick "lunch" w/ the ladies. Read just your first post.

well thanks, you know I love your insight....thank you for taking the time Sassy...by the way, I've missed you!

QuoteBased on that, it wasn't rejection, Creme.  You had a heartfelt talk with your son.  He heard you out.  You can believe some of what your son said to be, what he wants to feel is true (thereby his truth).  And I heard an open door.

well, I asked him what he thought I could do to make this better?  He said he'd have to think on it...

QuoteDS seems open to seeing you again, when you are ready, when he comes back.  DIL will likely be her same distant self, not warm, sloppy manners.  I hope maybe DIL can remain calm and cool long enough for an afternoon visit with your DS and grand-daughter, if DS's in your town.   If you visit them, or if they stay longer than an afternoon with you, it's probably true that she will not have learned any manners in the interim.  If you expect DIL may bolt after meals, and whisper to him sometimes,  DS may still snuggle on the couch w/her and hold hands w/her walking as 2, be cause that's just what they do anyway, then maybe it won't feel personal.   (Though I'd only ever consider visiting to see them, when he is available to visit the whole time too, because she will not make much attempt to entertain guests when he's not. )  The less one on one time with DIL, surely the nicer the visit will go anyway.

when I told him of the whispering and cuddling...he made the excuse that they always do that...well, fine, I'm happy they do, it makes me happy to see them cuddle, however, when you have company, you include them in conversation, you don't whisper?  But I didn't say that part...but we also discussed the way when we walk out of a resturant, that she grabs him by the arm and carries him off way ahead of me, and I can't hardly keep up...and he says, she always does that....what bothers me Sassy is, that he excuses and actually enables her very rude behavior....but I'm ok with it...actually, I don't ever plan on flying down to visit them in they're home any more....short visits are the best I think.


QuoteThis was the first impression I got of this conversation.  I'm hoping you got a sense of peace by getting to explain to DS how you experienced the last visit,  a sense of hope for an explanation of parts of it from him (from how he has to see it), and hope for future visits with your granddaughter, if you can stand DIL's probably unchanged manners for a spell.  DIL is DIL.  But you might be able to see her rude ways differently.  Like her behavior is not personal towards you, but bad manners consistent with that of a rude person.  (I offer this only as a possible option to consider, not as advice.)

Yes, I did get a sense of peace, but only b/c the longer time goes by, the less and less emotionally involved I am anymore...however, it's so difficult for him to understand, I'm not demeaning his wife...I'm discussing my feelings with him about how I was treated...and he refuses to see, and makes up all kinds of excuses for her....like the birthday card and money she returned...first, he didn't know she returned it, however, right away, he got so defensive...I believe, and this is human nature, he feels disloyal to her if he'd say something, like, yes, I know she's like that...that would be so much more sensible....however....the longer you live with someone the more like them you become....so that is also an issue....yanno Sassy, he is trying....and it's hurting him just as much...however, he is biased...and refuses to see...plus, I found out she played the trump card with him and accused him of not believing her...and taking my side....so they went to counseling...not for very long.....


QuoteI will come back later to catch up on other responses.  I hope for you Creme this exchange, while difficult to have, has you feeling a bit better about things possibly moving forward now, if - when you are ready. 

I do and am, thank you, however, it's like banging your head against the wall, and can you imagine it from his point of view....?  He adores his wife...how can he not believe her...however, he does say, it's both of us...but whenever I bring up an issue...he gets really defensive, instead of listening...and it's understandable....

oh, by the way, he said he spoke with a few people about my calling my GD a tomboy, he said they'd be very insulted if someone would call they're daughter that....I don't get that, I really don't...I was a tomboy, and some of the most beautiful women in the world are tomboys...however, we all still love to be girly girls...it was for me, just so rewarding to be able to do more then most women do...to accomplish so many different activities....yanno?  He and his wife, take it as an insult?  He says, she tries so hard to make her a girly girl....

so fine, however, I'm not saying that to insult her or her parenting...I'm saying it b/c to me, it was always a good thing...a woman who was versitile in interests? 

Thanks Sassy....so much

   


   
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 08, 2010, 12:19:01 PM
Quote from: guest1 on March 08, 2010, 11:14:59 AM
Creme,
Never lose hope but we have to be realistic in our expectations. Speaking from my own experience, I don't think our dil's are interested in having a relashionship with us, therefore it is more than likely that they're not going to change. I've seen my dil 3 times since Thanksgiving and each time it took every once of strength in me to put on a happy face, my son really wants us in his life so I made a pact with him that I would keep my mouth shut, I'm a very opinionated person, it runs in the family so the visits haven't been that pleasant.
Don't feel sorry or embarrased for the way you reacted in the past, there's nothing that could have prevented your behavior, since you didn't know back then what you know now. The only way that i know to move forward is to let go of the past, believe me, I know it isn't easy but don't torture yourself thinking about what could of been, it's not worth it.

yes, your right...yanno what, I  thought while reading your post...it's not even about the fact that our DIL's don't like us, I think what makes me the most angry is, I'm not allowed to be myself around her....

So, what, I said she was a tomboy...that is so small, so nothing, plus, it's me, it's what came out?  I think if you disagree with our DIL's, they really take it personal....like your telling them they are wrong...and your not, your simply having a different opinion and sharing it....it's like they are so controling, that they are taking away your identity...who you are, telling you how your to think and feel, and never once realize, there are other points of view out there, in each and every individual...we all do things differently...

but, to be honest, your right...I feel it in my soul of souls...that this was premeditated, just by the way it happened...she wanted me out of they're lives....and, I've observed her behavior, yes it is very rude, but it has a purpose...it's a deliberate message to me, saying, you are not welcome.  My gosh, if she'd treat everyone like this, they'd have no friends at all....

Love is surely blind...isn't it....so our son's tell us to keep our mouths shut and take it...how interesting...isn't it? 

Yanno, the last thing  I want to happen is them to fight over me....I don't want that....and that is one of the reasons I cut them off for two years....

and then she says to him..."Shall I call your mom"...sheesh, she's a grown adult, why would she have to pretend...if she wanted to call me she would have...she is very very good at manipulation....and pretending to be someone she is not...and I don't mean that as a dig...it's who she is, and who she became b/c of the abuse...her way of getting attention and what she wants....

I tell you true, you never really realize who you were married to, until you get a divorce, then, babe, it all comes out...and the shock of understanding...how could you have ever picked someone like that...it really sends your whole system into a shock....and I don't wish they would divorce...my son seems to be perfectly happy with the way things are....

but yes, your right, and I'm greatful for your feed back...thank you
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 08, 2010, 12:51:45 PM
Dear Guest1,
When you said the DILs didn't want to have a relationship with us or weren't interested, it hit me...you're right, they don't.

It's so hard for us who have sons only because it is in her hands that our sole relationship with our sons is.  So sad.  It has left us so discouraged and heartbroken.

I know they don't care and I have tried and tried till I can't try anymore to make them like us.  They just don't.  We've never been not liked before but we're such a threat to them that all the love, the ignoring comments, the babysitting, the dog watching, the caring...means nothing to them.  Nothing.

What a sad way to end up for 2 parents who wanted nothing more than to love them.  What you said is the truth and I might as well face it now.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 08, 2010, 02:02:13 PM
Chickie, you are so correct...it is very heartbreaking and despairing...I hop back and forth, back and forth...after talking to my son, I realized what he was saying...it's simply the way she is...regardless if it is rude behavior or not...what bothers me, is how son's and I only have one...can go along with all of this after the way they were raised and believe mothers of sons, need to teach they're son's how to make a wise decission when choosing a wife...what to look for...if a gal has grown up in a very dysfunctional home, she is going to bring problems into the family....she is insecure...and wants things her way, more so then other women, b/c this is the first time, she's had love...and she's going to hord it no matter what...I tell you true, as a society we fail b/c we don't teach our children the danger signs...

I did tell my son once or twice about this, but never elaborated on the effects it would have on everyone....
and actually forgot all about it...so I am as much to blame...

Parenting doesn't come with a manual...however, it should....they should teach children in school and at home how to be good educated caring parents...it's a huge responsiblity...and some people, like my DIL's mother should have never had children...she ruined 4 lives...and the worst part is...that these 4 kids are unable to identify with that and make changes...

I wonder why I did as a young person growing up? 

you'll notice when I write, I get off topic sometimes, b/c as I'm writing, other things come to mind...I've always been a very deep thinker...curious and wanting to know more...ever since I was a small child. 

Life is so darn wonderful...it's we humans that make is to darn hard...
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 08, 2010, 02:12:14 PM
my DIL has been so very cruel to me and I've ignored it.   Even going so far as to alienate him from his brother.  I fell for it.  This was close DIL.

Finding out she didn't really care and son didn't either has been such a shock.  Now, DDIL is nicer but other son, her husband is growing distant because of his brother and his wife. They have hurt him so much.

I did tell them about all this but at the same time, we told them to stand by their wives whatever the situation. They have. We're just out. I have a clear picture now and I don't know what to do.

We were not loved. I can't deal with this. You have no idea, how fragile I am.  What a DIL can do to someone's life is unbelievable. All lives ruined now.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cocobars on March 08, 2010, 02:54:10 PM
What a catch-22.  They are being the wonderful and loving men you raised them to be and standing by their wives.  That's something to be proud of.  And then...  You're left out.

I think it looks like moving on time, and that's a really hard thing to do. 

Chickie, do you think if you did that, they would start wondering where you were and show up more often to check on you?  HA!  Wouldn't that be nice!  I know, I'm a dreamer... They are losing out on so much, that it's a shame!

Try to hang in there and keep your chin up!   :(
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Barbie on March 08, 2010, 03:16:37 PM
Chickie, you have to make your own happiness because noone else will. You have to think that your sons love you and they do, they just don't need you. From what I have seen with my friends, the children stay close to them because they depend on them financially or they need them to babysit, etc.  Don't you feel better knowing that your kids are independent and you don't have to worry about them because they can take care of themselves? I don't think I couldn't die in peace knowing that one of my kids couldn't make it on their own in this world. You are so lucky to have a wonderful husband by your side, try to live your life to the fullest. My "problem" son and daughter are not on speaking terms right now, my daughter has a very strong personality and DIL can't handle it because of her insecurities. I don't like it but it's out of my control. I pray that someday my son sees the light, right now he's blind. Please take care of yourself.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 08, 2010, 03:51:36 PM
Guest1, whew, that is a very thought provoking post...thank you...!!!!

yanno, I don't need much,never did, always depended on myself, and hate to ask people for help...if I can't do it, it doesn't get done...yes I'm stubborn.

I always encouraged my son to excel, go forward and leave me behind, I wanted him to experience life, to travel, to meet many cultures, as I feel that in itself is a terrific education...

so, your so right in what you've said...I just wish, my DIL and I could be friends...not best buds...but let go of the past and go forward...all relationships are difficult...they are always a work in progress...and this one, with my DIL has been very frustrating...

so, perhaps your right...a new way of looking at things...

thank you
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Barbie on March 08, 2010, 04:14:00 PM
Creme, maybe being friends with our DIL's is too much to hope for, I'd settle for civil.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 08, 2010, 04:15:51 PM
Quote from: guest1 on March 08, 2010, 04:14:00 PM
Creme, maybe being friends with our DIL's is too much to hope for, I'd settle for civil.

high five....you betcha.....and it would be so easy, wouldn't it...
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 08, 2010, 04:41:06 PM
Quotecocobars
What a catch-22.  They are being the wonderful and loving men you raised them to be and standing by their wives.  That's something to be proud of.  And then...  You're left out.
do you think if you did that, they would start wondering where you were and show up more often to check on you?  HA!  Wouldn't that be nice!  I know, I'm a dreamer... They are losing out on so much, that it's a shame!

Try to hang in there and keep your chin up!   :(

sure does give me food for thought, great idea...


thanks so much coco
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Barbie on March 08, 2010, 05:40:43 PM
Well, I know since I decided to move on and my son sensed it, he has been more relaxed when he calls me and our conversations have been more pleasant because he doesn't have to get defensive. I fought this thing so hard and for so long and I still miss the way we were, the closeness, how we could talk about anything and laugh but I realize those days are long gone and I can't let this woman continue to ruin our lives. Now she's a mother and sooner than later she'll get her share of heartbreaks.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 08, 2010, 07:28:32 PM
Guest,
I do somehow realize all this but have had such a hard time coming to grips with it.  I need to be reminded of it.

I can see where I raised the most selfish son and his wife is totally self-centered. Like nothing you've ever seen.  She said not long ago that money was the most important thing in the world, in life itself. 

Do any of you think that?  Am I wrong for thinking that's not right?
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: luise.volta on March 08, 2010, 08:38:40 PM
I don't think we can impose a wrong or a right on others. We can make our own choices and they are free to make theirs. Money is God to some. Truly. It's the be-all-end-all. That wouldn't work for me...my values and beliefs go in other directions. However, what works for me...would leave some cold.

When I have any surplus money, I check with our extended family to see who needs it and if it needs to be a gift or not. That wouldn't necessarily suit others. I have been called all kinds of names. Oh, well...
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Pen on March 08, 2010, 10:55:26 PM
Hi, all. These posts have been very interesting and thought-provoking. I'm still grappling with issues regarding DIL's lack of interest in us and have come to believe I must accept that this is how it's going to be. But I do think I can expect to be treated politely.

Every day we  interact with people whose beliefs and lifestyles might be different than ours. We're polite to them and treat them civilly, even if we don't want a relationship with them. I'm sure my DIL is polite to the many people she deals with in her work day...why can't she extend that same courtesy to me and DH? If she loves our son it would make sense to put forth a little effort to get along with us. Like others here, all I ask for is respect, kind words, and civility. I never expected to be friends and never wanted to take over DIL's mom's position. Let DS maintain his relationship with his FOO, and DIL can maintain hers with hers.

The money worship thing is weird to me, too, but I accept it in others. What I have a problem with is DIL & her family putting us down because we don't share their views.

Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 09, 2010, 04:16:30 AM
Quote from: 2chickiebaby on March 08, 2010, 07:28:32 PM
Guest,
I do somehow realize all this but have had such a hard time coming to grips with it.  I need to be reminded of it.

I can see where I raised the most selfish son and his wife is totally self-centered. Like nothing you've ever seen.  She said not long ago that money was the most important thing in the world, in life itself. 

Do any of you think that?  Am I wrong for thinking that's not right?

Chickie, Guest one is so right...as long as I don't bring up my DIL to my son, our relationship is much more comfortable...yanno, we have to understand, that our son's love they're wives more, in a very different way...if we say anything to them, right away, they think we are demeaning them and take offense, we would to, if someone told us something bad about our husbands...

So, what Guest1 is saying does hold water and is also true for me...

and here's another  thought, we human beings can be very selfish at times...now I'm not talking about you, I know, this about me...I want more...I want my DIL and I to be civil (as someone else put it) to each  other...I want them to come for visits occassionally and have a peaceful time....will it ever happen, probably not...and yes, it's sad, but there is nothing we can do about it...well, yes there is...we can fight it and make ourselves sick, and when and if we fight it...we always end up saying the wrong thing and steping on toes by our expressions of hurt...son's think we're telling them they made a bad choice....they're wives are no good, and we are not!!!  We're hurt, angry, frustrated...and want to be a family...we are trying to explain to them what happened. 

My DIL was very young and very immature when this all started...I was a DIL once to...and I remember how selfish I was, how utterly immature I was, and how I was so excited to start up my own traditions and housekeeping as a new wife...every time my MIL suggested something, it hurt me, I felt like she was saying, your doing it all wrong....and she wasn't...and I'm sure that is what happened with my DIL....

So, understand...unfortunately even though we would like to, sadly, we can't have it all, we can't have what other families have, due to this problem...and in all things in life, there is always a trade off...unfortunately...but, we have to decide to move on and allow and be tollerant and find other things to keep ourselves busy.

I know my words are no consellation, however, we are all in the same boat, we all react differently to situations and as you can see from my posts, my emotions are up and down about this...when you try and love someone and they reject you, it's awful...especially when we know, it means, estrangement from our families...it's very despairing and hard...but for our own sakes, we have to change, and maybe this whole thing is some play by destiny, God, or whatever spiritual belief you have...I always try to tell myself, there is something in this for me to learn.

Hugs and luv
Creme
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 09, 2010, 04:29:11 AM
Well, last night ladies, I wrote my DIL...I know some of you will disagree, however, inside I felt I had to...I took blame...and told her things that I've learned here (didn't tell her about this site)...I asked her if we could forgive and go forward, leaving the past where it is...I told her that I do admire her for always having my son's back when he makes huge decissions...and she does...I explained to her, that I really did think she hated me...from the beginning and wanted me out of they're lives...also said, that I know my son and she love each other dearly...and that is a mother's wish.  Told her that I believe this whole thing started from miscommunication, insecurity on both of our parts, fear and hurt....said, things kept escalating and everything we said to one another was always taken as a personal attack, when it wasn't meant that way.  Also said that I understand, I was a DIL once to...explained to her, that I always encouraged my son to go, to experience, to travel so he wouldn't miss out...on life experiences...also told her, she was never a threat to me...that I had lost 3 babies, one after my son was born, and she was a girl...and when my son told me he was going to propose, I was so extactic, which may also have frightened her by me coming on way to quickly and to strong.  Told her, I couldn't wait to someday have a DIL/friend.

Also told her that my door is always open, and she is always welcome...but if we decide to go forward, the only way to do so, is to leave the past buried for good.

So, we'll see...if she doesn't respond so be it...it won't hurt me anymore, I have nothing to loose and I don't expect much...so I wanted to thank you ladies, all of you for hanging in there in this thread...for all your wise advice, thoughts feelings and opinons on the matter...I don't know what I'd do without all of you...your support and your care...

One thing, I'm no longer  afraid...I don't care anymore either way, and I plan on continuing to write her short notes every once in a while and continue to send her birthday cards...if she sends them back..so what..at least I can keep trying...but no matter what happens, I no longer have any expectations...I just want to assure her that we are only human beings, we all make mistakes...we're never going to live up to each other's expectations, that is impossible....and, I will never shut the door to her...she is always welcome....and that's it...heck, I have nothing to loose, and lots to gain...so, whatever is, is...

I know I'll still have ups and downs, it's an emotional roller coaster...however, you ladies and your posts have given me so much strength...I've grown b/c of you gals!

I'll let you know if I hear anything...however, if I don't I won't say anything....

In the meantime, again, big hugs to all of you and many thanks!

Creme
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 09, 2010, 06:02:51 AM
Creme, when you said "you wrote her", I was wondering if it was by mail or email?  So many reasons why she might never tell your son she got it.

I hate to feel this way but I do.  You never know what they are going to do.  I think it would be a good idea, the next time you talk to your son, to tell him, "oh, I wanted to tell you that I wrote DIL"

This way, if she doesn't tell him you wrote, he will know.  Good Luck!!!!!
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 09, 2010, 06:33:54 AM
she may very well never tell my son she never got it...but that's the chance I take...Chickie, I'm so tired of this, all I can do is keep trying...without any expecation...I have nothing more to loose, no matter if she tells my son or not...I would hope and pray, my perceptions of her are wrong...however, if they are not, then so be it...only she has the answers to that...

I've discussed it with my son, and honestly feel, now, its between her and me, and if she doesn't respond, that is her perogative...however, at least I know I tried, and believe me, I have nothing, nothing left to loose...I don't care either way any more....I won't allow this to ruin my life, run my life and change my perspective...

I am a good person, and if she doesn't want to let go of all this and try, then I'd say that speaks volumns....

however, my door will still never be closed to her, and....I won't allow myself to be anybody but me, from now on...I won't allow her to take away my identity, b/c I fear she's going to get upset about something I innocently say.

yes, I'm straight forward and to the point...so I say, sue me....I can't change...doesn't mean I love her any less...however, I will flourish, along in my journey, with or without her or my son, if that is they're choice....I'm beyond the hurt...and all you ladies, have helped me get here...Praise God....!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: 2chickiebaby on March 09, 2010, 06:51:09 AM
That's a great way to look at it, creme...I pray for the best..
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: renny97 on March 09, 2010, 07:19:49 AM
I like, that you won't let your identity be taken away. I think you are in such a healthy place. Once, we get past our insecurities, we know what we need to do--either way.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 09, 2010, 07:26:46 AM
many thanks to both of you....

hugs
Creme
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Marilyn on March 09, 2010, 07:54:32 AM
Creme,I think writing your DIL was a good idea.At least you know,you have done all you can to try and work things out.It will be the start of healing the relationship with your DIL,or healing of your self,so you can go forward with the peace of mind knowing you did your best.
Your Dil might not respond,but keep in mind,she might soften in time.If you can stay upbeat and positive,it will reinforce how sincere you are.

Wishing you the best  :)




Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 09, 2010, 08:32:12 AM
Quote from: Mominwaiting on March 09, 2010, 07:54:32 AM
Creme,I think writing your DIL was a good idea.At least you know,you have done all you can to try and work things out.It will be the start of healing the relationship with your DIL,or healing of your self,so you can go forward with the peace of mind knowing you did your best.
Your Dil might not respond,but keep in mind,she might soften in time.If you can stay upbeat and positive,it will reinforce how sincere you are.

Wishing you the best  :)

thanks so much MOM
thats how I feel to...and ya know what, if she doesn't respond, its ok...I'll keep trying from time to time, and continue sending birthday cards, and yes, hopefully she will reach a plain in her life when she says to herself, all this stuff is so silly....

Hugs and thanks
Creme
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: Barbie on March 09, 2010, 08:53:32 AM
Good luck, Creme. I'm glad you did what you feel is right for you, what makes you feel good and at peace with yourself. That's important in order to move on.
Hugs.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 09, 2010, 09:38:46 AM
Quote from: guest1 on March 09, 2010, 08:53:32 AM
Good luck, Creme. I'm glad you did what you feel is right for you, what makes you feel good and at peace with yourself. That's important in order to move on.
Hugs.

Thanks so much  ;D

Creme
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: catchingup on March 09, 2010, 12:44:36 PM

Hi Cremebrulee
I hope I did not upset you about the bathing of the baby. I did not realize this took
place while you were looking after her.
In all the time that my mother-in-law interferred and said horrible things to me I never tried to keep her son away from her which is cruel but from what you say he does phone you but not seeing him must be awful.
I think you were brave to write to her and I hope she makes peace with you.
Title: Re: It goes on and on....
Post by: cremebrulee on March 09, 2010, 02:03:56 PM
Quotecatchingup
Hi Cremebrulee
I hope I did not upset you about the bathing of the baby. I did not realize this took
place while you were looking after her.
In all the time that my mother-in-law interferred and said horrible things to me I never tried to keep her son away from her which is cruel but from what you say he does phone you but not seeing him must be awful.
I think you were brave to write to her and I hope she makes peace with you.

Hi Catchingup
Heck no, I'd never be angry with anyone who gave me constructive critizisum

Well, we'll see what happens...I don't expect much...and yes, it is difficult not to see my son...but yanno something...at least we've been talking every weekend for the past 2 years or so...and  I'm not afraid to talk...when I'm around DIL, I was even afraid to hug him, to show him attention...and maybe that's all my fault?  I just didn't want her to think that I was invading her space.

Since I've been on this forum...I can't tell you how it's helped me see things more clearly...so it must play out, and it will be what it is...no more, no less....

hun...your feelings are very valid, and I do realize, we can not all think alike...some people are not afraid to walk around naked in front of they're kids, others think that is awful...to me, it's whatever your comfortable with, as long as you don't hurt anyone in the process...and I say you, meaning you in general...not you personally...

Hugs and thanks so much
It's so nice to have you DIL's on here...and I'm sorry for any pain and heartache you've had to endure. 

I'm 61 now, and I wish like anything, I could make us all see, that a lot of this stuff is nothing...is very trivial...we just took offense to things that were not meant the way they sounded...

I truely believe there are horrible MIL's and DIL's out there....but yanno, compared to some peoples troubles, this stuff is silly when you really think about it, isn't it...it wouldn't have to be...

Hugs
Creme