Alright, so most of you know we are cut off from MIL. She knows we are cut off from her.
What does she do? Ambushes us this weekend at an event she wasn't invited to, but I should have known she would get in. Surprisingly, I wasn't angry, I found the whole thing amusing. DH was angry though. Anyway, she's flapping around hugging and kissing us, picking up DD (who's 8 lol) and acting like nothing happened. I'm pretty sure she was hoping that I would flip out in public and she could point at me as the "bad guy." But I found it all very funny...I'm starting to wonder if I'm cracked in the head lol.
Anyway, so I guess I'm doing better...she doesn't bother me much, that whole episode proved to me that I can be in the same room with her and not be ashamed of my behavior later. BUT, I'm not one to pretend like nothing has happened. And DH is still very upset. We were told (by her counselor) that having a conversation with MIL would never work b/c her self esteem is too low that she cannot acknowledge wrong doing and instead will attack immediately. (and I know this to be true as we've experienced it many times) If we want to resolve this, we should write her a letter.
Now what in the world do I say? I mean, if she can't handle a conversation....wouldn't a letter just be worse? Do I write down explicit "rules" with consequences for her? I mean, the whole thing seems so...childish.
I don't want to say the counselor is "wrong," because I hate to criticize a stranger...but my DH tried the whole letter route and it got us nowhere with a capital "N." He got a 9 page novel back from his mom where she spun almost everything he had to say and justified the rest. She lied about several things, I mean just flat out lied about the way something happened. She spent 9 pages throwing out all the stops about why she is not at fault for anything that has happened and he should feel ashamed of himself because the things that have happened with him have caused her to be more unhappy than when her previous husband died, etc etc, then at the end throws in a "I'm sorry for whatever I have done to cause you pain." Butttt you just spent 9 pages explaining that you don't feel you've done anything wrong? The letter didn't do anything for us- and I would imagine that my MIL spins it around for the same reason. She has low self esteem and is insecure and cannot accept responsibility for ANYTHING in life. From my understanding, she has always been this way and she's surrounded herself with enablers.
Then when my DH wrote his grandpa a letter, he just completely dismissed it. Wouldn't even talk to him about it. Called him like nothing had happened and when DH brought up the letter where he told him his feelings, grandpa said, "As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing to discuss."
Everyone is different of course, but I agree with you. If she isn't going to hear you guys out in person, the letter probably won't work except to give her something to show everyone how mean you are.
Pam,
I commend you for staying as cool as a cucumber. Handling it like that by surprise is awesome, and for you, it just reinforced the type of person you are.
I don't normally advocate letters, but since the counselor said so..then maybe it will help, but only if you're ready to write one and maybe open the door open for communication.
I wa reading somewhere that when you didn't like someone's behavior, you needed to tell them that, and say that the next time it happens again, there will be a specific consequence. List the consequence.
Something like..."When you do XYZ, I fee like ABC. I will not tolerate this, and if it happens again, I will do DEF. DEF= not talking to for a week, not allowing you over at our home...etc. " A letter like that would maybe be helpful for her: your feelings about what she does are there, as well as what will happen if the behavior is repeated. I've never actually tried this, but my guess is that since it is also recommended by counselors, it must've worked at some point.
Yes, it does seem childish. But then again, I'm not sure you've been dealing with an adult.
What's to resolve? As far as I can see, if you cut her off, then you must mend the fences if you want to resolve this. And in that case, a letter mentioning boundaries and consequences is not a method of mending fences. The letter you are contemplating will make things worse.
If she cut you off, I say fuggedaboudit.
Holli, I agree. It would give her something to base her behavior on. My H told them the same thing- "When you do this, it makes me feel ___. I don't like it, and I won't tolerate it any longer. Now, when you do this, I will react by ____ ." He even added that he was going into detail about it BECAUSE he loves her and cares about her and WANTS to have a good relationship. Still..nope. He was deemed as cruel and even a BULLY because he spoke up for himself.
Quote from: seasage on February 28, 2011, 07:57:28 AM
What's to resolve? As far as I can see, if you cut her off, then you must mend the fences if you want to resolve this. And in that case, a letter mentioning boundaries and consequences is not a method of mending fences. The letter you are contemplating will make things worse.
If she cut you off, I say fuggedaboudit.
Seasage, if she cut her ILs off to protect herself from certain behaviors, she can't "mend fences" until those behaviors are addressed and corrected so everyone can have a mutually respectful relationship. Don't you think? It's not all up to her.
I'm not saying the letter would work, but at it could be possible...plus...Doctor's orders and all....
I really don't know.
Quote from: seasage on February 28, 2011, 07:57:28 AM
What's to resolve? As far as I can see, if you cut her off, then you must mend the fences if you want to resolve this. And in that case, a letter mentioning boundaries and consequences is not a method of mending fences. The letter you are contemplating will make things worse.
If she cut you off, I say fuggedaboudit.
Actually, DH cut her off and I went along with it. You may not know our history with her and that's fine. But DH and I both are kind and generous people and don't cut off others for no reason. DH is the type of person who will give you the shirt off his back and never mention it again.
HB- I agree, and if nothing else, at least Pam could say she gave it her "all." MIL's counselor (5th one in a year) asked if we would come in and talk to him. We didn't want to and didn't think it would help at all. DH really struggled with it but we decided that we would do it this once, only with this one counselor. That way nobody could say we refused to do what we could to help MIL "get better." We did it and it felt good to get it out on the table. Did MIL ever go back to him once he met with her and said, "Your DIL is not the devil and you have some things to work on?" I don't think so. But we could say in good conscience that he asked for our help and we gave it to him, the rest was up to her. We did more than our "fair share." It might feel good to be able to do that, Pam.
OW, that's what I was thinking about the letter. I'm not sure it would help, unless I just state certain behaviors I don't like and that I won't be around them without going into detail of what she actually did. But then I don't see how that works? How can you mend fences if you can't talk to someone when they have hurt you?
Holli, thanks. I do wonder, her doctor knows her better and all, but still. I just can't see being able to write this letter and have it be better than a conversation. She'd have something to wave around at anytime and I'm sure she would show it to others.
I don't know, I would like to air it all out with her but I don't know how you can do it with someone like this.
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on February 28, 2011, 08:00:41 AM
Quote from: seasage on February 28, 2011, 07:57:28 AM
What's to resolve? As far as I can see, if you cut her off, then you must mend the fences if you want to resolve this. And in that case, a letter mentioning boundaries and consequences is not a method of mending fences. The letter you are contemplating will make things worse.
If she cut you off, I say fuggedaboudit.
Seasage, if she cut her ILs off to protect herself from certain behaviors, she can't "mend fences" until those behaviors are addressed and corrected so everyone can have a mutually respectful relationship. Don't you think? It's not all up to her.
I don't think either Pam1 or her DH can change those behaviors. Only MIL can. And I believe that a letter that spells out the offending behaviors in detail is not only useless (MIL already knows what the problem is), it is also aggressive and likely to prolong the separation for many years.
I would sit in the bushes on this. MIL needs time to think.
Quote from: pam1 on February 28, 2011, 07:42:52 AM
What does she do? Ambushes us this weekend at an event she wasn't invited to, but I should have known she would get in. Surprisingly, I wasn't angry, I found the whole thing amusing. DH was angry though. Anyway, she's flapping around hugging and kissing us, picking up DD (who's 8 lol) and acting like nothing happened. I'm pretty sure she was hoping that I would flip out in public and she could point at me as the "bad guy." But I found it all very funny...I'm starting to wonder if I'm cracked in the head lol.
I don't think she was hoping you would flip out. I think her actions are those of an insecure woman who would like to have a relationship with her DS and GD, but who doesn't know how to make it happen.
I glad you found this amusing instead of annoying or threatening. I hope your DH eventually sees it that way too.
I presume that during this weekend event, MIL did not do any of the things that caused you to cut her off? If that is true, I believe she is actually trying....
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on February 28, 2011, 07:51:26 AM
...but my DH tried the whole letter route and it got us nowhere with a capital "N." He got a 9 page novel back from his mom where she spun almost everything he had to say and justified the rest. She lied about several things, I mean just flat out lied about the way something happened.
Been there doe that. MIL also flat out lied. Said the things never happened. So, my advice. Since you didn't try to kill her at this event lol, just leave it alone. Do your best to get your DH to the point you are at. I hope I can get to that point too lol I'm close, I no longer want to kill her, but a smack up alongside the head would feel great! lol
And, I think she was probably doing it to get a rise out of you too. Bravo to you for not letting it bother you. How did you do that? What is the secret???? I desperately need to learn!
No, Seasage, I know her. Her kissing and hugging is an act, she only does it to me and DD and it is to show others that she is the loving one while we are not. She has used it in the past to demonstrate to others that I'm not affectionate while she is. She has never done it in private or at an occasion when she doesn't have an audience. This event had friends and family that she could show everyone that she didn't cause the rift, see she loves me, she is kissing me. It would just be icing on the cake to get me to pull away or act out in some way in front of others.
I'm not sure that DH will ever see this as amusing, he's quite embarassed and hurt.
Yes, MIL did something that crossed boundaries at this event. She showed up uninvited and ambushed all of us, when she knows clearly that she has hurt both DH and I. She knows that DH does not want to be around her and did I mention, she was not invited? lol
I don't know if my amusement is a good thing or not.
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on February 28, 2011, 08:33:42 AM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on February 28, 2011, 07:51:26 AM
...but my DH tried the whole letter route and it got us nowhere with a capital "N." He got a 9 page novel back from his mom where she spun almost everything he had to say and justified the rest. She lied about several things, I mean just flat out lied about the way something happened.
Been there doe that. MIL also flat out lied. Said the things never happened. So, my advice. Since you didn't try to kill her at this event lol, just leave it alone. Do your best to get your DH to the point you are at. I hope I can get to that point too lol I'm close, I no longer want to kill her, but a smack up alongside the head would feel great! lol
And, I think she was probably doing it to get a rise out of you too. Bravo to you for not letting it bother you. How did you do that? What is the secret???? I desperately need to learn!
That's what I think would happen, she has just bold faced lied before.
I have no idea what the secret is, I do know it kept running through my mind this was like a horrible sitcom or cartoon. And she does act cartoonish in some ways with all the flapping and bouncing about. And it's somewhat like The Truman Show, everyone knows but no one says anything. I'm not sure how to adequately explain it, every single person at that event knew what was going on (hey, she told everyone!) Just so bad that it was funny, if you know what I mean?
Yeah, I'd say there was clearly a violation of personal boundaries when the title of the post is "Ambushed!" LOL! Obviously she's not trying to "fix" it.
Quote from: pam1 on February 28, 2011, 08:36:48 AM
Yes, MIL did something that crossed boundaries at this event. She showed up uninvited and ambushed all of us, when she knows clearly that she has hurt both DH and I. She knows that DH does not want to be around her and did I mention, she was not invited? lol
Showing up at events uninvited is one of the reasons your DH cut his mother off????
I am so sorry DH doesn't want to be around his mother. Were I the DIL in the middle, I would be feeling sorry for both of them.
Pam1, was this an invitation only event that MIL crashed? What did the hosts think?
Quote from: Pen on February 28, 2011, 08:44:26 AM
Pam1, was this an invitation only event that MIL crashed? What did the hosts think?
DH and I were co hosts and organizers. We were put in a bad spot, we didn't say anything to the other co hosts and they just knowingly looked at us.
This was not an event that she was welcome too, in fact, it was downright odd that she came. But again, most of us touched by her are so used to stuff that no one says anything to her, no one rocks the boat, people cope as they can which is mostly ignoring. No one wants to be her target so they just move out of the way.
Quote from: seasage on February 28, 2011, 08:43:53 AM
Quote from: pam1 on February 28, 2011, 08:36:48 AM
Yes, MIL did something that crossed boundaries at this event. She showed up uninvited and ambushed all of us, when she knows clearly that she has hurt both DH and I. She knows that DH does not want to be around her and did I mention, she was not invited? lol
Showing up at events uninvited is one of the reasons your DH cut his mother off????
I am so sorry DH doesn't want to be around his mother. Were I the DIL in the middle, I would be feeling sorry for both of them.
No, it's not the reason. I see you don't know my history and I don't feel like rehashing it here for you. Please trust my word that DH and I are kind folks with a more than reasonable reason to cut her off. If you can't accept my word, please forgive me in advance for ignoring you.
Quote from: pam1 on February 28, 2011, 08:50:10 AM
No, it's not the reason. I see you don't know my history and I don't feel like rehashing it here for you. Please trust my word that DH and I are kind folks with a more than reasonable reason to cut her off. If you can't accept my word, please forgive me in advance for ignoring you.
Are you cutting me off? LOL!!!
Quote from: seasage on February 28, 2011, 09:00:24 AM
Quote from: pam1 on February 28, 2011, 08:50:10 AM
No, it's not the reason. I see you don't know my history and I don't feel like rehashing it here for you. Please trust my word that DH and I are kind folks with a more than reasonable reason to cut her off. If you can't accept my word, please forgive me in advance for ignoring you.
Are you cutting me off? LOL!!!
Only if you want me too ;D
How did she find out about the event? Was it open to the public?
The reason I ask is that DS called us & invited DH & I to join him, DIL, & DIL's FOO at a public event. He then called back, livid, to tell us DIL & her FOO didn't like us and didn't want us there. DH said, "They don't own the venue. We can go if we want." So we did! DIL & her FOO shunned us although we were seated a couple of sections away. DS came over and apologized; he told us we'd done nothing wrong and that it was their problem. I was tempted to go over to say hello, but he and DH advised against it.
I wonder if my DIL feels that we ambushed her? Crashed an event uninvited? In my situation DH & I had every right as citizens and consumers to go to any event we wanted & could afford tix to. DIL & her FOO have no right to keep us from going to public places and events.
We'd never crash a private party, but public events are different. It might be tacky to attend, or embarrassing, but it isn't wrong.
No, it was not open to the public, it was private and paid for by DH/I and other co hosts. It wasn't a guarded event though. lol. And yes, she would know about it, just trust me. What makes it worse is what is currently going on in our situation, MIL knows she is cut off from us. She knew that DH and I didn't want to be around her. But as usual, she thinks anything involving one of her kid involves her too and she is entitled to be a part of it. If anything, showing up invited/uninvited, what have you..considering our current situation, this was an extremely short sighted and dim decision of anyone to make in her position.
This was the first time I've showed up at a public outing where I knew that she knew I'd be. I don't know why it didn't occur to me beforehand that she would crash it. She hasn't been able to get at us for awhile, this was her first chance and boy she didn't let it pass!
I don't think what you did was wrong Pen and it is much different than what happened here
Thanks for clearing that up, Pam1.
It breaks my heart that your MIL is such a hard case that her DS no longer wants anything to do with her.
I'm on the fence about this one. I guess you and DH should ask yourselves what do you want from MIL. Does he want a normal relationship with her? Is she capable of this, has too much damage been done? Do you trust her? I haven't read all your posts, but I think some of the other ladies said, wait and see. Maybe take that approach for a while. She obviously wants attention from you and DH. A letter, although thoughtful, may send her over the edge and make her be even more defensive. If she's already in attack mode. I would not do anything, and ask DH what he thinks. Also, did you see this counselor with her? Does she know what his recommendation is? Would she even accept a letter, and take it in the best way, or would she feel it was another attack? It might not do any good if she's not willing to receive it, and see what the problems are. She may view it as another attack. I would not do anything, and let this be up to DH to proceed as it is his mother. If he wants you're help, he'll ask, but sometimes, as DIL's, we have to remove ourselves and let husbands deal with their own mothers.
Also, I agree with Holli - the fact that you can be around her and laugh, and not get mad, puts you in a stronger place emotionally. Sounds like you've healed from some of the problems, and that is always a good place to be:)
Yeah, maybe I'll just rest on this one for awhile. It really confuses me.
About the whole "looking at it like sitcom thing." I guess I might have progressed a little further than I thought. I found this HILARIOUS....
DH wrote MIL and GM/GFIL a letter (I supported him, but didn't really want him to send it lol). Anywho, it was passed around to the ENTIRE extended family (30+people). Anywho, in it he had mentioned some crazy stuff his family does (They charge for dinner at their houses. $13 for 2 shish ka-bobs, then fight over the leftovers, it is really weird to me lol) and that now that we (the grandkids) are all adults GM/GFIL don't really need to buy us all Christmas presents anymore.
It has to be expensive doing the Christmas gifts for 30+ people! Anywho, about a week before Christmas GFIL sent DH an email that he "just can't give it up because it makes him feel like a grinch and he will be doing gifts this year." Okay, it's his choice to do that. DH and I's gift? A box of, wait for it, ANTACIDS!!!! ROFL!
I was actually the one who opened them. I just looked at them and thought. Okay? I kinda wanted to say "Thank God, I need these after being around this family for more than 5 minutes!" LOL (This family always does stuff like that MIL bought her daughter tampons as a gift one year. Tampons? Really? lol) Anywho, DH was REALLY hurt by this, but I just found it hilarious!
O.M.G that is funny!!!!! Sometimes I can't keep my laughter in when I'm around them, but they all just take it like I'm laughing at their jokes or something. Whatever. I feel like a mad hatter, hah maybe they realize I'm losing it and think *I'm* funny!!! I wouldn't know what to do if they gave me antacid, probably take some and offer it around. That is so funny. You must have missed the "Who Does That?" thread on here. A lot of the posters had funny gift stories.
I've pestered DH to take pictures of me at their events b/c I know my face has got to look crazy sometimes opening a gift, I know I'm commonly stunned/shocked. Wouldn't that be a great picture to put up here instead of my dog?
She is going to be herself no matter what...and that means being childish to the extreme no matter what the underlying cause. I think it's wonderful that you held up and didn't take the bait. Sending love...
Thanks, Luise. And that's a good reminder too.
I have always found that with people who wouldn't recognize a boundary if it hit them in the face, telling them what the boundaries are is like an invitation to step over them. She will test the boundaries, she will keep score, she will throw it in your face if you are not consistent, and she will make herself into a victim because of your "unreasonable" boundaries. So, if you do write a letter, don't include boundaries and consequences. Treat her like a two year old. You don't give a two year old long, complicated explanations, you simply give her consistent consequences when she steps over the line and she learns real quick where the boundaries are. When she showed up at that event, you and the kids, or DH and the kids should have left. She is counting one everyone smiling and ignoring her bad behavior, stop doing that. Call it in the moment, and give her immediate and natural consequences. It is hard to do, but what would have happened if you left? Most of the people there would have understood and the person who stayed behind could have called when MIL left for the others to return. I would bet that all these family members she is trying to fool, know and understand what is going on.
With the letter, is the therapist going to use it in therapy, or is this something you are going to send directly to MIL? I could see where a letter written by her son about why he has cut her off would be useful to a therapist. If this is how it is going to be used, I would encourage your DH to write it. Talk to the therapist again and see if this is his intent and if so, what he recommends for you to include in the letter.
But, if it is to be sent directly to her, you are only asking for trouble. It doesn't matter how well you write it, she will sift it through her personal filter and the result won't be pretty. Better to talk to her directly.
MIL wrote DH a horrible letter after we visited them this summer. In it, she used language that led him to believe that she thought he was no longer part of the family. "You left the family...." and "you are welcome back in the family when...." among other phrases and that she blamed him for his sibling's problems. There were other things so wrong with that letter, too many to enumerate here. He wisely decided not to reply. His GM died last month, so he took another trip to his hometown. While he was there, he had it out with MIL. When he brought up the letter and gave her his interpretation of it, she was astounded at what he thought she wrote. He encouraged her to read it again and try to understand why he took it the way he did. I don't know if she did, but it was a relief for him to know that she did not mean what was actually written. I have a feeling she wrote an emotional letter and just sent it without rereading it a couple of times. The evidence being that she used no punctuation and did not spell check.
I doubt that your MIL will give your DH the chance to explain himself as DH gave his M a chance to explain herself. No matter how carefully you write it, she is going to take it the wrong way and twist it unless the therapist is there to help her work through it. It is just the nature of such letters. They are written emotionally and read emotionally.
Justus, thanks, it helps to hear real stories about this. I'm really thinking a letter is the absolute wrong way to go, unless we write it with magic ink that disappears after a couple hours.
I think the reason why the want a letter from me is b/c MIL keeps saying to everyone I hate her. To be honest, I have no idea if the counselor suggested it so they can go over our letters in therapy or suggested it as the only way to inform MIL as opposed to talking to her. I will ask DH tonight when he gets home.
I'd suggest sending the letter to the counselor not to mil.. let him read how you really feel and he may decided not to present it to her.
I think all such letter are time bombs. They definitely need to be written...and then burned. Sending love...