It is snowing here today, I am trying to clean and forget about the holidays..except for the good parts, thinking about all the posts I have read here. I remember when I was in my 20's and 30's with small kids. I have to laugh..if I ever treated my mom or my mil the way these kids treat us, I would have run for the hills b/c I don't care how old I was my mother (God rest her soul) would have killed me, and if not, she would have wounded me very bad..and then told me "You made your bed now sleep in it!" My mom had a very harsh side to her, but we respected her! Now don't think she "wanted" to babysit our kids...she did NOT! We knew too NOT to ask her or my mil. However, when they wanted to see them...there was no questions, we were told bring the children TONIGHT, NOW,or, TOMORROW. Not when it fit our schedule, when they wanted to see them you dropped everything..and went to Grandmas. I also remember when they wanted to visit us,,,there was no phone call first.....I don't care what u were doing you stopped and made them feel welcome, be it lunch or dinner time you set them a place AND you smiled. My kids even remember these visits to this day!
So I though (won't speak for others here) that my life was a little harsh, and tried to treat my children with the respct, I wished then I had gotten. Didn't work!!
I wonder if the spakings I received, the punishments, and the chores I had to do (with no allowance) were really for my own good? I wonder what our children will endure from their children. Well you all know what I mean...we can't have a winner and a looser in a game anymore...all the kids win. Heck half those babies out there are on meds,,,,to keep them quiet! I'm wondering what a child today would do if like my parents enforced, "children should be seen at the table NOT heard!" lol. Then I think back when I said that was just awful and I would NEVER tell me children that! Then I remember how frustrated I was when those darn food fights would break out at our dinner tables??
I was just wondering?
It's sure a "puzzlement," isn't it? It's a darned of you do, darned if yo don't thing. Sending love...
Hi E.
Don't ever regret being kind to your kids. You did this because you are a kind person and that is the best kind of person to be. We don't always receive the treatment that we give out, but if we give out kind treatment, at least we can be sure that we have done our best. Wouldn't you feel just as bad if you had treated your kids really harshly and they had had the same reaction to you? I think you would---and in that case you would have also felt deep regret for not being the person and mother you knew that you could be. Sorry for your sadness...
The Beauty in our hearts,
transforms the World around us.
Hi Esme, I have considered that as well. It wasnt just our moms and mil's personally that we would never disrespect...it was their place and title in the family...their role, if you will. It was the "right thing to do".
I think our kids who are so mixed up willhave a terrible time establishing respect from their own children, since they dont get the concept.
Quote from: neecee on January 08, 2011, 02:02:09 PM
Hi Esme, I have considered that as well. It wasnt just our moms and mil's personally that we would never disrespect...it was their place and title in the family...their role, if you will. It was the "right thing to do".
I think our kids who are so mixed up willhave a terrible time establishing respect from their own children, since they dont get the concept.
I guess this is where I go off the rails. Neither my mother or my mil's "roles" are more important than mine. Yes, they are part of my lives...but I will not subjugate myself or my wants or my schedule to them anytime they call and demand something.
Honestly, I rarely get demanded of anymore. They've seen how that's turned out in the past.
I don't think being a mom or a mil is license to assume that you can tell your grown children what to do with themselves or their kids. As for what Esme posted "However, when they wanted to see them...there was no questions, we were told bring the children TONIGHT, NOW,or, TOMORROW. Not when it fit our schedule, when they wanted to see them you dropped everything..and went to Grandmas."...how is that not disrespectful on the part of the grandparents?
I DO respect my mother. That does not mean that she wants something just because she wants it. I'm not unwilling to work around other people's schedules if I can...but I see no reason to do something because it's demanded of me by someone older than me. That I must do what they want regardless of my own wants or needs simply because they are an "elder". I don't see that as respect. I see that as being a doormat. Disagreement or refusal to capitulate from an adult child is not disrespect.
There are probably many definitions of respect. A woman once told me that her husband had learned to respect her and "didn't hit her any more."
There's a lot we can say about respect and how we interpret and practice it and want it returned. I hope it doesn't become an outdated word that eventually gets dropped from the dictionary.
Quote from: luise.volta on January 08, 2011, 03:34:06 PM
There are probably many definitions of respect. A woman once told me that her husband had learned to respect her and "didn't hit her any more."
There's a lot we can say about respect and how we interpret and practice it and want it returned. I hope it doesn't become an outdated word that eventually gets dropped from the dictionary.
:o
You're right...a shocking thought! Nice to see you on the board today, G. :)
"learned to respect her and didn't hit her anymore."
Before they changed the domestic violence laws, that statement would have gotten a response from me,
"First time he hit me, I would have sewn him up in a sheet and taken a broomhandle to him!"....you act like a Missouri mule, you get treated like one. And then I would have been out the door.
Yup!!! You got it! Some laws do not protect the innocent!
What makes these issues sad for me is that those of us MILs/moms of a certain age have lost out on both ends, so to speak. We gave respect to our elders, deserved or not, because it was the thing to do as dictated by societal norms of the day. Many of us are caring for our aging parents, for example. We probably weren't spoiled or treated like we were entitled; we were to be seen and not heard, go along with whatever our parents (usually Dad) had planned, and pay our own way through college. Now that we're the elders we're finding that we don't automatically get respect for our years of experience and hard work, we have to "earn it."
I'd kind of like to be spoiled or entitled on one end or the other; since I lost out as a child it would be nice to get it as an elder :) Dream on, lol!
My son, our Webmaster, age 55, tells me his friends are now starting to have to "tow that barge and lift that bail" where their parents are concerned and much of what he relates is about parents being stubborn and refusing to consider a retirement center when they are no longer competent and the situation is plainly headed downhill. He tells them about Val and I coming to the Warm Beach Retirement Center before we needed to and merrily volunteering our heads off for for the first five years. (It's non-profit, so that's allowed and a way of life here.) He is so grateful that we made the decision, picked the place and moved ourselves in. We didn't put it off and cause him concern. We set it up financially (with very little) so we are independent and he gets to love us to pieces and live his life. Not that hard to put together from our end.
I had my dad live with me from 85 to 95 and what sounded ideal and came from the heart wasn't easy for anyone. Of course entitlement never was part of the equation on either end...not does my son suffer from that malady.
From my point of view at 83 and Val's until he got confused in his late 90s, it has worked beautifully. There isn't any obligation, just two-way love and support The phrase mutual respect comes to mind and it's looks to me like we are a generations before entitlement became the operative word. Still don't see my grown grandchildren doing that or their kids...who are now in college. I wonder why it strikes when and where it does.
Hey Luise, I read your post about the retirement center and had to laugh. I just talked to my cousin this morning and she was saying that her in-laws have packed and moved from North Carolina to Phoenix to live in the area close to them. (They're staying with them in the meantime, which, so far, is okay.) However, she said they're looking for a 4,000 square foot home, in the Phoenix area, a rambler, all on one level. I said, "Really? How old are they?" She said, "In their late 70's, and FIL can barely walk! He kind of shuffles everywhere." They've tried to talk them into one of the many excellent retirement places down there, where they have huge clubhouses, lots of activities, golfing, etc., but nope, frankly, they just don't think they're "old," so don't want to move there!!!! She also had no clue why in the world they would want 4,000 square feet for just the two of them. Sigh...........
Yup, that's the one! "If I don't go there...I ain't one!"
Respect is entitled to every living creature. It is a right. Sometimes the cultural mores of a society demand respect for a role, a title, such as rising for a Judge when they enter a room or even to a person just because they are vulnerable, such as elderly, disabled or other.
Respect is given by intention. One knows when it is received and given. Hopefully, it is given with humility and kindness for all equally. Intention is how someone from another culture might know you respect them, even if you don't speak their language or know their culture.
Those who are older, here in this country, are also from another culture; a different time, with different mores, different world views (often from the depression years or raised by depression parents). Older people are often dismissed when they have not learned the changes in their new culture, such as how to communicate with an email or texting. When respect for aging and its' implied wisdom is ignored, there can be changes in the way that society functions.
I interview hundreds of elderly and frail each year. I would never impose myself over them or expect them to meet me point for point. If I did, we would not be able to bridge the gap that leads to a relationship. Relationship is the key word.
Additionally, we age the way we are young. If we have lived in anger, cruelty or denial in our youth, or been harsh and critical or unreasonably selfish in our youth, most likely we will continue that behavior in our waning years.
I once had a patient who was quite elderly. I had no reason to believe my patient was not a sweet kind old fellow. I gave him a lot of space in our relationship to achieve a therapeutic connection. That was respect for his position in the world and his spirit. I later learned this old man was a convicted sexual predator. Did it change my relationship? Yes. I was more on alert. Did I think less of him as a spiritual being...no. I did my best to reach across the gulf that was between us, because he was my elder, he was a human being and he was vulnerable.
My mom would tell me, when she was in her 80's, that she did not have the same sense of power in her body as she did as a younger woman. This was a woman who raised 10 children. She was hearty. I could also feel her energy changing. She would monitor the amount of stress she would allow in her life and we kids also monitored how much stress we sent her way...with family disputes, divorces and so on. It left her too tired. We respected her aging and her right to manage her life in the world.
When I read these blogs, I sense the vulnerability of the women. I can feel it in myself. Did I feel it in my 30 - 40 -50's? Not like this. No. I do not think my daughters feel this feeling yet either. but they will and I will try to help my grandsons recognize it in their mothers and fathers too. I will try to let them know there is a vulnerability that will demand a different kind of respect and gentleness.
This is common sense. What happened to common sense?
Neecee, we were all in the car (DH & I in back, DS & DIL in front) waiting for an elderly man to cross the street and my DIL said scathingly, "I HATE old people!" I was shocked! DH just shook his head in disbelief. At least DS spoke up and asked her to be less hateful.
I don't know what was going on with DIL during those days but she's much nicer now. I can't forget her previous bad behavior, but I think I've forgiven her; she's still very young and is figuring out how to be part of our family without betraying her FOO. However, I'm still somewhat on guard until I feel completely safe around her.
As the mother of a DDD (dear disabled daughter) I am shocked at the disregard a lot of younger people have for that population, as you mentioned. When I hear things put down with the term "retarded" I feel I need to educate, but I know it isn't always my place.
I hate old people? Does she think she is going to die young and not have to be one...or has she found the fountain of youth? That seems sad, to me, Pen. So terribly sad.
I, too, can forgive. But I never trust again once trust is broken. I start out trusting everyone...where it goes from there is up to them. Sending love...
It's sad to me too, Luise. I pray that my DS is a good influence on her rather than she being a poor one on him.
My dad always wanted to die before he got old, preferably doing something adventurous. It's really hard on him to be crippled and old. I have better role models, women who have aged very gracefully without fighting the natural progress of life. They've stayed happy & active in mind, body and spirit. I choose that way!
Yes. Val is doing it so beautifully. He's in a state of grace to my way of thinking. Everyone in nursing loves him.
Thank you everyone, for all your voices. This is just my ho of what I have learned here and I feel it is because of all you wonderful women. Yes it is hard enough to get older on your own. Yes, this a.m. I awoke and I prayed for the victims in Tucson. Over the weekend my dh and I realized how lucky we are to be alive today. We just moved from Tucson AZ. We received the call from Mrs. Gabby Giffords..bc our phones still start with that area code, and we were both sorry we moved because we both said "oh darn why did we move I would go to that...look what happened. We could have been one of those victims. My point is not political, my point is this am, I was thankful, for healthy children and grandchildren, thankful that we were not there. So as I age, not letting my adult children's bad behavior bother me..I find I am more at peace. Something really happened to me...on my visit. Finding you wonderful women has made me realize its ok for me to disagree with my children. I have spend 31/2 decades trying to make them happy, begging them not to be mad at me, trying to please their girlfriends and wives..and now...well, all the love my heart can hold, I can honestly say..I am me...I have done for you all long enough....and whatever happens happens. Thank you all for helping me to get here.
Beautiful! Sending love...
Hi Esme
I was raised the same way as you were, and now adays they call it abuse....I feel that there are times to spank and most times not....I think I spanked my son 3 times in his life...and the first time was sheer torture....I went in the other room and cried...and my husband came in and said, "Don't you dare let him see you!" and I didn't....but my son was also a good kid.
Now for my foster parents, they never ever spanked us, unless absolutely necessary. However all my dad had to do was look at us, and that was it....but times were different then, people were not nearly as busy, families were closer, b/c people didn't travel as much, we didn't have privy to as much news then...due to a lack of technolgy, people sat out on they're porches and stopped by to visit all the time, without calling, it was our way of life....
However, things are much different today, and we just have to accept it....
I'm not the kind of person who wants people to just stop by without calling first, b/c I don't keep a lot of food around, and when I'm off work, I need my quiet time...so, I for one can understand that...but that's just me....and I wouldn't stop by to visit anyone without calling them first and asking if it's ok...even when I phone someone, I usually try to ask, "is this a good time or were you busy?" and I am not once who can stay on the phone long....
so, we're all different and there is definately a generation gap....and things will never again be as they were when we were young....do you happen to remember your parents saying the same thing? LOL
Good Grief, we're turning into our parents....LOL ;D
don't know if this helps or not....?
Creme
wow..we are turning into them !!!!!!!!! OMG... ??? ??? ;)
Quote from: Pen on January 09, 2011, 04:05:20 PM
Neecee, we were all in the car (DH & I in back, DS & DIL in front) waiting for an elderly man to cross the street and my DIL said scathingly, "I HATE old people!" I was shocked! DH just shook his head in disbelief. At least DS spoke up and asked her to be less hateful.
What is wrong with her? (Rhetorical question, I know...but geez.)
Quote from: esme on January 10, 2011, 12:13:23 PM
wow..we are turning into them !!!!!!!!! OMG... ??? ??? ;)
LOL, yeah...we are....
hugs
Quote from: Pen on January 09, 2011, 08:32:32 PM
It's sad to me too, Luise. I pray that my DS is a good influence on her rather than she being a poor one on him.
My dad always wanted to die before he got old, preferably doing something adventurous. It's really hard on him to be crippled and old. I have better role models, women who have aged very gracefully without fighting the natural progress of life. They've stayed happy & active in mind, body and spirit. I choose that way!
Pen, I hope you don't mind me saying so, but Your DIL has a lot of pent up anger issues...I bet a lot of times, she's angry and she doesn't even know why?
What was her childhood like?
I agree with Glitter, Geeze is right!
Quote from: Pen on January 09, 2011, 04:05:20 PM
Neecee, we were all in the car (DH & I in back, DS & DIL in front) waiting for an elderly man to cross the street and my DIL said scathingly, "I HATE old people!" I was shocked! DH just shook his head in disbelief. At least DS spoke up and asked her to be less hateful.
As a child I was never allowed to use the word 'hate', it's such a harsh negative word..Some people use it as easily as they use words like retarded and queer... each being painful in their own way. Is it possible that she never learned to choose her words more carefully?
I cared for an elderly man for 10 years, and there were many things that I can honestly say I hated, he was not one of them but my gosh he did things that I had to walk away from. I love children, but I could see myself saying something really negative if I were to be dining out and had to tolerate someones child running circles around my table. It's funny.. the older I get the more patience I have for the elderly and less I have with youth :)
More and more, as I read this thread...I concur that her hate probably had nothing to do with the old man. Quite probably, it is just pure, unadulterated...non-specific hate.
Or like I said maybe not hate at all, just an inappropriate way to express herself at the moment.
You are kind.
She is very kind. I still hold to my opinion that people that are not happy themselves, lash out at other people inappropriately.
Hmmm I've been called a lot of things.. kind is usually not one of them :) I just know from personal experience that I've verbally lashed out and grouped people into generalized terms unnecessarily and usually at a moment of anger or irritation. Sometimes it's just a bad bad habit and a display of poor manners. But that wouldn't stop me from asking her if she really 'hates' old people or if she found that mysterious fountain of youth yet.
I was just reading an article (I can't remember where, sorry, but I promise I'm not making it up), about the "watering" down of the English language. People say they LOVE everything. (I love pizza! NCIS! I love Justin Bieber!...etc...). They also say that things are "awesome," when they really are not "awe"-some, just very good things. I think the word "hate" might fall into this category as well, although I can't remember if the article addressed this exact word.
Although, it still denotes a certain disdain for the elderly in general, that seems a bit unfair to make blanket statements that way. It is something that is done though, and I'm not sure a lot of people even realize they do it, or exactly what they are saying. She may have been frustrated (for whatever the reason), by that man in particular, which is okay, it happens. I caught myself in front of my daughter saying, "I hate mayonnaise," and I realized that I just don't like it, but hate is a pretty strong word and isn't really the right fit for what I'm trying to say. I could easily see where this word gets combined with inaccurate stereotypes.
Quote from: holliberri on January 12, 2011, 09:52:07 AM
I love Justin Bieber!
I can promise you that my language skills will never be watered down enough to ever hear those four words coming out of my mouth :)
Haha...oh, me neither. That kind of music is the kind that I "just don't like"...ever. :D
I brought up my children with kindness in an atmosphere that I thought was happy and relaxed. There were of course the usual frustrations when two brothers would fight, towels laying around, teenager woes, nagging about doing the homework etc. etc. - you all know what that's like, but our general mood was positiv.
My eldest DS is now a doting, very kind father and a loving and supportive husband. I think it is because he had a good role model. Imagine my surprise the other day, however, when DH and I were taken to task for not having had enough fights when DS was young, that things were swept under the table etc. etc. :-[
I am upset but when I look at his behavior with his own children, I'm sure DS had had an off day when he said that and was looking for something to criticise.
I still firmly believe you can't err on the side of kindness.
Kindness and love rule :)
Sorry about your DIL making such a heartless comment. I also think that there is a change taking place in the English language nd 'to hate' does not have the same impact as before because it is overused.
Well I guess I am totally guilty of that. I say hate all the time. I hate being sick. I hate my neighbors barking dogs. I hate new country music which sounds like pop. I hate brussel sprouts. I hate people that call 911 for directions and make us put someone having a heart attack on hold to answer their 911 line.....
Can I say DETEST?
Chelms,
My mom is upset with her parents for hiding their bankruptcy, while my SIL is angry for having been very involved in the middle of her own parent's bankruptcy growing up. I knew about everything in my parent's divorce, while my other friends were toally blindsided: each way has its advantages and disadvantages.
When we mention these things, I don't think it is meant to hurt, and I think the funny thing about it is that while we say we disagree with a parenting tactic, we also admit that we turned out okay anyway. If the reverse had been true, and the parents tried what we would've liked them to, we probably would've turned out alright anyway. Same result, right?
I don't think anyone agrees 100% with how they were raised; there are always things that they wish were different. But, that's because all of us are a little different, and we have a shot to do it our own way. You can bet then when we do, we'll be hearing from our kids that they wish it was different. :)
Your DS doesn't really have to agree or like how you chose to raise him, he just has to recognize it is a part of him now, and if he wants, he can do it differently. But, I think these discussions are bound to come up once our kids reach parenthood. Good luck, I certainly hope he was respectful about it, and sometimes a grain of salt can be very helpful.
Quote from: Pooh on January 12, 2011, 11:12:19 AM
Well I guess I am totally guilty of that. I say hate all the time. I hate being sick. I hate my neighbors barking dogs. I hate new country music which sounds like pop. I hate brussel sprouts. I hate people that call 911 for directions and make us put someone having a heart attack on hold to answer their 911 line.....
Can I say DETEST?
Haha, I don't know if detest is useful, we replaced it with hate so long ago. I don't like the country that sounds like pop either, and 911 = roadkill pickup call-in where I'm from. Just awful.
One of my most enlightened friends had the "I hate" habit. I finally asked her if she would be willing to make a note of how many times she said that every day. She did and she was astounded! Not her wish to bathe herself in so much negativity...she had no idea! So she started saying "I prefer..." and it's worked like a charm. Of course there was that, "I H----, oops, period" but she made it through.
Thanks for your comment, Holliberri.
There is this lovely line in one of Robert Burns' poems: The gifte gie us, to see ourselves as others see us." There can be a huge difference in how we perceive our way of parenting and how the children experience it. As you say, a lot depends on personality and our children are not our own. When they grow up they become people in their own right and that's as it should be. It is really all good. This is me in a positive, optimistic mood - glad of it, long may it last. :) Hope everybody is having a good day!
Hi E
After reading this thread, I think our moms could of been related. I can remember on more then one occassion my mom saying those exact words * you made your bed now lay in it* At the time I use to think that was a horrible response but now I think I just did not get what she was actually saying. It was not that she wanted me to remain in the situation that was currently causing me pain, just that since I got myself into the situation, I needed to stop whining and figure out how to get myself out of it. I believe it made me alot stronger and able to deal with the many curves that life has thrown at me.
My mom also was not one that welcomed the babysitting and would only do it if it was an emergency situation . But like you if I had ever pulled the stuff that my kids have , I know I would of faced a whole lot of whoopass lol.
What I have a problem with is how can four kids grow up in the same household, be exposed to the same situations and come up with such different perspectives. During their younger years up until my son was 25 I always believed that we were a close knit family. It wasn't that we always agreed or didn't have some problems but I always truly believed that no matter what they would have a stable family relationship to fall back on. For the life of me I will never understand how my son can go from college into the Navy, and over night decide that he no longer wants or needs a relationship with any part of his entire family. If it was just me , I could rationalize that perhaps he had a problem with something I did , but to alienate himself from his sisters, aunts, uncles to the point that he has done makes absolutely no sense to me.
As Luise has said in the past, we will probably never understand but like you I still wonder