Hi everyone,
This is my first post, so thanks in advance for reading and any input you have!
So the general story is that between birthdays, celebrated holidays, family traditions, etc. there are on average 2 family gatherings a month on my DHs side and that does NOT include a weekend all together in the winter to go skiing and also an entire week together every summer.
Unless we have an excuse that is acceptable TO THEM for missing any of these get-togethers, his parents get very angry and it becomes a problem. Up until recently it was something that caused my husband and I a lot of arguments because he didn't mind spending so much time with them (his attitude was like "I love my family and I love my wife - I get the best of both worlds!") - whereas for me, as much as I do enjoy spending time with his family, I also love spending time with MY family, our friends, alone with each other, and at times alone by myself. And now that we have 2 kids of our own, it's very important to us to spend a lot of time together as our own family unit.
My husband travels a lot more for work now too (sometimes over weekends) and our free time has become even more precious to us than it was before. We have MUCH less time for ourselves or to spend with friends or relaxing, but the number of family obligations has only increased over time (like I said, they celebrate EVERY birthday so with every new grandchild, a new occasion to have a family party). It bothers me that it becomes an issue if I don't want to have a family party with his family when it's MY birthday - what if I want to celebrate with MY family or with my friends or with just my husband and children??? Mother's Day also bothers me, we HAVE to have a party for his mom ON Mother's Day (which I'm required to help prepare food for every year), but what if I wanted to celebrate with my mom, or shock of shocks, enjoy Mother's Day with just my husband and children since I'M a mom now too??
Finally my husband and I are on the same page about this and he also sees the number of family obligations as extreme and also his parents' behavior as inappropriate if we don't attend one. An additional problem to this is that his 2 sisters may well feel the same way, but they always go along with their parents and never speak up. The last thing we want is for relationships to be damaged, but how do we reason with them if they just won't accept "logical reason"??
Welcome, NotChattyCathy. I'm glad your DH agrees with you - that's the first step. I'm not sure how to handle this since I'm a MIL with the opposite problem; my DIL and her FOO celebrate everything and we get whatever scraps of time might be left, if any. My DS finally stood up to his FIL and insisted we get every other Christmas, so at least we are assured a day EOY!
I know you'll get a lot of support from this site. There are other DILs who are dealing with similar situations. I really feel for you - you and your family unit need to build traditions and memories of your own, and you need to be able to spend time with your FOO.
Oh, I'm preaching to the choir about this...when people are upset, it has a powerful effect on me.
If they are angry/sad/hurt that you need to take time apart from them for your own family/personal/down time, that is their problem. No matter what they do, don't let it affect you, or let it change your plans.
It's an adjustment; it's going to be hard at first, but either they'll move past their pain, or you'll be less effected by their negative reaction.
Very simple concept, much harder to put in motion.
Wow.... I thought my IL's were bad with the 12 mandated get togethers a year. (those are extended family, plus 6 more for b-days) :-( You really have my sympathy. Before we got married, we went to every single one. For the most part, DH's family really isn't sooo bad, BUT they have made it ABUNDANTLY clear that they do not like me and I am not/will not be part of their family... Oh, when I have kids someday, those kids will be, but not me.
But I digress, now that we are married, we will not be going to all the get togethers. DH has always been the black sheep of his family so he is used to "the look" and "comments" that they give. They have chosen to ruin any hopes of a "good" relationship. We go only because we are "obligated" not because we want to. We didn't go the Thanksgiving (loooooooooooooong story) and got you-know-what for it. Mother's Day will be the first one the we will be missing since then. We will be spending it with my mom. I'm not looking forward to the "comments" but DH and I have each other's backs so we will get through.
If Your DH has come around to your side, as a couple (extremely important to show that united front), tell the IL's "Oh, we won't be able to make it because we have other plans." Period. End. Of. Story. Don't give them any more info than that. They do not need to know what your plans are or to "approve" your plans. Still go to SOME get togethers, but not all of them.
And IMHO, you should totally ditch MIL and you Mom on Mother's Day. Make it about you! Celebrate with them the day/week before or after. (((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))
Hi Cathy
Welcome aboard !
Are you saying that your DH now feels that the family gatherings are excessive ?
As they are always with his family , it's up to him to gently break the news to them .We would love to come but we have made arrangements to meet , or attend , or are doing something else .
Mother's day should be shared between each family , including you !
They can't expect every high day and holiday to be spent with them , let this year be your mom's , or yours !
they will have to get used to it , you have your own family's holidays to think of , if they get angry it's up to your DH
to explain .
Yep.. you've gotta be able to Just Say No ... tell everyone that oh sorry we've already made plans... Glad you don't have to beat dh over the head to make him see what is going on.. lots of luck.. oh and Welcome
Cathy - what counts as an acceptable reason to them? For my IL's, DH just says that he has to work and they're FINE with it. But that's because MIL is a workaholic and her work trumps everything, so she's okay with DH being just like her.
How old are your kids? Because soon enough they will have swimming lessons, dance lessons, cub scouts and/or friends birthday parties taking up their weekends.
For me, I had to start tracking where/how we were spending our weekends. My goal is to spend 65% of our weekends at home, with no guests. I don't think that's asking too much. Can you chart it and get the data? My DH would really react well to NUMBERS, as in "See dear? Last year, we spent 55% of our weekends with YOUR family, 15% you were away, 5% with my family, 10% with friends and only 15% of the time as a family. What do you think of that? What do you think would be a better balance?"
I would also start thinking of your free time, just as you would your spending money. Although he's on board (for now), if he thinks about it as spending a precious resource, he might be able to stand up to them better.
I just re-read your post and I see what you're asking. You can't change how they feel. If you and DH are on the same page, and HE thinks it would work, show them the list of 'occasions' (not including Christmas / Thanksgiving ect) and ask them to pick 10 (remind them that a week's vacation with them counts as 2). This way, you've given them some input (that they don't deserve), in hopes of smoothing the way.
As for me, I believe that you negotiate your relationships. It's time for you to negotiate for more time as a little family. If the IL's are stinky about it and try to guilt you into more, well, I also believe that whenever you re-open negotiations, you have to be prepared that you're may end up with LESS.
Good luck - I really hope that things go smoothly eventually, because I KNOW they will be rocky at first.
I think if DH and I started tracking, we'd just make a contest out of it and bicker over how to be 100% fair. Scoop, I'm amazed that works for you.
Quote from: holliberri on March 30, 2011, 08:54:39 AM
I think if DH and I started tracking, we'd just make a contest out of it and bicker over how to be 100% fair. Scoop, I'm amazed that works for you.
Yeah, with my luck MIL would find it and calculate that we saw my family (or FIL, they are getting divorced) 50.00009% and Her only 50% lol
OH! Bad Numbers!!!! That doesn't add to 100%! Luise!!!! Fix it! Fix it! LOL I really am an accountant ROFL, but I deal with BIG numbers lol
There are 52 weekends a year. How many of them do you want to give away? 12? 10? 6? Decide that first, and then let your MIL decide which are the important dates for her, where she wants you to attend.
Families who grow up with everyone celebrating everything have never known anything else ... and to them it is normal ... but you don't have to go along.
Set your own boundaries and let everything else go. If they get mad, reduce the number of occasions you attend. If they stay mad, reduce again.
They are bullies.
Hi Cathy,
Since finding this forum and reading many of the posts here,(I'm new also)
It really amazes me how some MILs are behaving!
I find my mouth falling open when reading.
Your MIL as well as many others needs to wake up and see how blessed she is to have a DIL who cares how she feels. You sound very kind hearted!
Your post sounded as if y'all get along fairly well? If this is the case? And you've been in this family for a good while now? Why not invite them for a quite dinner just the 4 of you. And together you and your DH tell them how you feel. Tell her it really matters to you how she feels and to hurt her or your FIL is something you never want to do.
But remind her how much over the last few years life has changed for your family. And the many get togethers is proving to be to much right now for y'all as a family.
Unless you've already tried this? It may work or at least help?
If your IL's care for you like we do ours they will welcome the honesty. If they don't? Well at least y'all will know where you stand and think how or what the next step is.
And to be honest with you that much together time would bother me too! I love all of my grown chidlren and their mates! And I of course adore our Grandchildren!! But I wouldn't want them with us that much! ;D Good Luck.
You are not their kids. They do not make your rules. You have your own family unit and home and it is your choice to design it as you see fit. They did! Sending love...
I agree that you just have to stand your ground if you and DH don't feel like going to every single event. Just say you can't. That's a shame the parents are so unreasonable just because you might miss an event they host. That's good your DH agrees with you or that would really be a strain on your marriage. Hey, Mother's Day is YOUR day too and just as important as HIS mother's day and you are "required" to cook while his mom relaxes?!! :o Girl, I would put a stop to that. ;) Good luck.
I forgot to add, on Mother's Day you could suggest that you ALL just meet for lunch somewhere so that ALL the moms don't have to prepare food and cook! Then, the mother can't say you are trying to be mean or anything. Hey, that's what my mom and I always did. Who wants to cook on MOther's Day?! We always went out and it was fun! Take care.
I've always liked the idea of getting together for a BBQ on Mother's Day and having the MEN do the cooking!
Also, my DH and I have a deal, *I* get to do what *I* want on Mother's Day and he gets to do what he wants the rest of the year I mean, on Father's Day.
As for the numbers working for us, it would, because it would show DH in black and white that it was TOO MUCH. In the moment of planning "this" visit, he wouldn't be able to see the big picture. But if I showed him the big picture, I think he would react appropriately.
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses! I agree that we totally need to stand our ground, it's just a lot harder to say than do!! Thank goodness my DH finally is on the same page - it has not always been that way and we have had our issues because of it (seeing a marriage counselor I think helped him to understand that OUR family unit is the one that matters, his parents are now considered the "extended family").
Scoop you're totally speaking my language with the numbers! I'm an ex-engineer (now SAHM to our 1&3yo DSs) and my analytical brain responds well to numerical results! It actually did take me physically counting all the expected family get-togethers to realize how absurd a number it is. And I did show it to my husband and it wasn't until then that he realized how absurd it is too.
The first challenge is how to change things now after having allowed them to get their way for the last 7 years and the second is how not to damage the relationship in the process. I would happily come up with fake excuses if it was the easiest thing to do to keep the peace, but my husband has the type of relationship with his parents where he speaks with both of them frequently and they just know pretty much everything about each other's business (I am quite a private person, so this is something that has also caused issues with us, but I'd rather keep that separate from this discussion). Therefore, asking him to come up with fake excuses would be something difficult for him because it would require him to change the nature of the relationship he has with them. Additionally, we live in the same town as them, and by driving by our house they can see if we're home when we're "not supposed to be" for example.
This past weekend my ILs planned a family dinner for Sunday afternoon/evening for no other reason than "it's been a few weeks since we got together". DH had been out of the country for a week on business until late Friday night, he's in the office this week, but then leaves for another week-long business trip next Monday. We just wanted to spend a quiet weekend at home as a family. DH tried to explain this to his parents, but it was apparently the first time he's ever said "no" based on it being his preference not just that we already had other plans out of the house. This really almost started WW3 with them (and of course they think it was just me who didn't want to go and that I'm just forcing DH to go along with what I want because he went to EVERYTHING before I came along...) The fact that his parents reacted this way really threw him for a loop I think and it's causing us a LOT of stress now knowing that we HAVE to attend everything they want or else it's going to cause an argument. DH cherishes his close relationship with his parents and I love him and want him to be happy always, so knowing that this could potentially damage their relationship makes me sad too. We're ok with joking around knowing that I get the blame and that we'll just live the cliche that I'm the evil DIL stealing their son away, but we're not ok with the time that's wasted having to explain ourselves (this past weekend's debacle resulted in more than several phone calls plus additional emails plus HOURS of discussion - we literally do NOT have that kind of time or energy to waste on something so NOT urgent... plus it makes me resentful - I mean they should be jumping for joy how much time they get!! Forget all the family parties - we all (as in us plus both SILs and their families) go away with them for an entire weekend every winter plus an entire WEEK every summer!! How good they already have it!
PS- regarding Mother's Day - it actually IS supposed to be a family BBQ with the men doing the cooking...but in reality what that means is the women do all the prep-work, we have to make all the appetizers and desserts and side dishes and we have to chase after all the children while the men are busy doing the very important grilling and drinking of many beers.... Funny, that's exactly how Father's Day goes too! ;-)
Welcome NCC and bless your heart. I agree with the others here. Since you and DH are now on the same page, sit down and decide what you two are willing to do, then go with that. Expect resistance because even though I find the demands unrealistic, it seems from your post that is how it's always been, and DH was going along with it at one time. People resist change. Just hold your ground and expect some resistance to the change.
I do have to say I am always constantly amazed how many times numbers come up on this forum, from both MILs and DILs. I just can't imagine having to deal with my family, my ILs or my children seeing visits and holidays as numbers. I mean that as "I am expected to spend 12 weekends with them, or 6 holidays". It just blows my mind to hear that, as I have never put a number on visits or had a number put on me.
And I guess I am odd man out here too about holidays. I love my family, but besides Thanksgiving and Christmas, we don't even get together for holidays unless someone just decides to. My DH's family decided years ago, before me, to have a family get together every month or couple of months to celebrate all the birthdays in that month. We go to most of them, but have missed a couple, as does everyone else. We do go visit my Mom, my StepMom and my MIL on Mother's day, as does Dad and StepDad get visits on Father's day. But all of them would be ok if I called and said, hey...we have something, can I come see you the day before or the next weekend? I would still call on the day quickly and wish them a happy holiday.
And this whole thing of not realizing that a daughter is normally closer to her family than a spouse's. I did think that was normal and I don't hold score on how many times visits are exchanged. I do understand, and go through myself when they never come visit one, but spend all their time with the other. I'm not talking about that. If I had a good relationship with my DIL/DS, I would still expect that they would visit her family more often. I guess I'm weird.
The demands that are placed on both DILs and MILs here, do boggle my mind sometimes.
Quote from: Pooh on March 30, 2011, 12:46:20 PM
It just blows my mind to hear that, as I have never put a number on visits or had a number put on me.
Oh me too...I seriously get heart palpitations when people start saying "come up with a number." MIL is notorious for saying, "It's not a visit unless it's 7 days..." or "Well....every 6 weeks...." or "7 maybe 8 times a year..." and I immediately start counting myself. I don't want to do that; and I don't know if I could have the heart to say "3 days max" or "2 maybe 3 times a year" or "How about every 6 months?" Either way, it comes across as expectations. Then I think if I was negotiating with DH about it, I'm so anal retentive I'd probably start counting hours if I half thought about it. :P
Besides, quality, not quantity. If I see you once a year and it's miserable, that feels like 1000 visits at once. If I see you 10 times a year and it's fun and fabulous and great, it's hardly enough. I'm like that. I have an aunt I met 5 times or so and I feel like we're so close. We're really not, but those memories I forged with her those few times makeme feel like I am.
Ah, my point was that if you're going to place a number on someone, I think you better make sure the visit or whatever is in designated quantity is well worth their while and appreciated.
It didn't occur to me to count until the therapist asked me to literally tell her, in numbers how many visits per month/year. And that was really the turning point, Laurie gave me a fabulous idea to write it all out on the calendar in different colors so DH could "see" it. And it worked.
Perfect! ;)
Quote from: pam1 on March 30, 2011, 02:06:00 PM
It didn't occur to me to count until the therapist asked me to literally tell her, in numbers how many visits per month/year. And that was really the turning point, Laurie gave me a fabulous idea to write it all out on the calendar in different colors so DH could "see" it. And it worked.
LOL, I get counting if you think it's excessive or conversely negligible at best...did you come up with a set number of visits after that?
In my case...son/dil come when they want. No agreements. No set days. On Christmas Eve, son/dil will always be with us but they bring my dil's parents every year because they are alone. Dont have more family locally so we are happy to be all together. Sion/dil are very close to us and to her family as well. It wasnt always like this...but now it is. I think that we all got to understand that it is easy to be in harmony and piece....for the sake of all.
Wish you all the best.
Love
She asked me to come up with a set number per month that I thought I could live with. I said twice a month. She said it was basically a lot but I was going from like 6 - 8 times a month and long days at that. Now it all seems really absurd how much time they expect.
It hasn't been that long and we don't have a set number anymore. DH is actually the one pulling back, I offer more time. I'm ok with short visits and can do more often. He can't really handle either right now. But I get over things faster so I guess we will see.
I don't want a schedule or rotate holidays or anything like that but it did really help us when we were in the trenches to see how crazy and out of control it had gotten.
Yes, dh's parents were up for a few days before we drove down to see them and everyday I asked him if he wanted to go down to see them and every time he said no. He has pulled back tremendously since dd was born.
Cathy - I find that if you look at it from the point of view that time=money, you have to admit that they are taking a "pay" cut. Try and ask anyone if they are willing to take a 30% cut in pay and see how they like it. So please don't expect them to think of the 'money' they're already making, because they consider that their baseline. (Halloo fellow engineer!)
I have to say that I'm impressed that you still want a relationship with these people. I'm impressed that you're still trying. You're a better person than me.
I'm torn on this one, on one hand, I think maybe you should just start cutting back your visits slowly. But I can also see that you're going to get this hairy canary EVERY TIME. Did you end up rewarding their fit by going to the 'get-together'? I hope not, because then you just taught them that throwing a fit WORKS.
I think the kindest thing to do would be to make other plans FIRST. You might end up exhausted from putting yourself out there, but it would be the kindest solution. So invite your parents over, invite your friends over, make a new "date night" rule that is UNBREAKABLE, buy tickets for shows in advance, or something. You know the dates that are coming up, plan way out there if you have to. Plan to visit them too, pick the occasions you don't want to miss - I'm thinking kid's birthdays and MIL & FIL celebrations. I really think that you and DH and the kids need to go away for Mother's day weekend. Book a hotel with a pool.
For the summer, you should make a "bucket list" with your kids and VOW to do one thing every weekend. Start planning it now, tell everyone that you won't be available as much this summer because of this VERY EXCITING FUN LIST OF FUN THINGS. Again, in the interests of kindness, include some Gma & Gpa things on it (BOTH SIDES!).
Good luck - you'll need it. Be strong, whenever you make changes like this, the people it affects will try VERY HARD to get you to 'change back'. You have to stay strong, because if you show them that you will 'change back' after X amount of bullying on their part, well the next time, they will be willing to put in 2X amount of bullying. Also, look up "extinction burst", it's where a person (or pet) puts up one last big fight against the new rules before finally accepting them. Expect it.
I didn't start keeping track of how much we saw my IL's or my FOO until the very day that MIL said "You visit YOUR family MORE!" And honestly, I didn't know the numbers. So I figured it out and started keeping track. And you know what? We, in fact, visited the IL's MORE than we visited my FOO.
To me, I'm a numbers person, and numbers never lie. (Statistics yes, but not numbers.)
I really think we're all dealing with the same people (regardless of title) because the year after we got married, we spent a week visiting the IL's. Out of that week, we took a day trip to visit GMIL (MIL's Mom) and an uncle. When we got back, MIL said "You OWE me 1 more day, because you took a day away from us!"
I hate when people say "you owe me". It is one of my pet peeves. The only people "I owe" are the people that I enter a contract with. So to me, that's my mortgage, electric, car, insurance, etc. And my DH...Lol. I entered a marriage contract with him, so I do "owe" fidelity, loyalty, etc. Other than that, if you do me a favor because you want to, I don't owe you. And when I do one for you, you don't owe me.
I do understand looking at the numbers, when something is not working out and you need back-up or a reality check. I am a fact person. I was referring to when a MIL says what Holli was saying, or says "You have to give me 10 weekends."
And yes, take the titles out. What would any of us say if our DH/BF/SO said, "You HAVE to have sex 5 times a week, or I'm going to throw a fit and treat you like crap?"
And before anyone answers, remember Luise's forum policies on curse words! Lol. ;D
I agree, Scoop & Pooh.
My in laws have also said that we spend more time with my parents (who live on the opposite coast and we see *maybe* an entire week a year lol) b/c when we do see them, we spend the night. Apparently, we should be spending the night with our local in laws too. And I didn't know that sleeping counting as quality time but whatever, they are still off their rocker with that assessment, we still saw them waaaaaay more
Quote from: Pooh on March 31, 2011, 06:09:45 AM
I hate when people say "you owe me". It is one of my pet peeves. The only people "I owe" are the people that I enter a contract with. So to me, that's my mortgage, electric, car, insurance, etc. And my DH...Lol. I entered a marriage contract with him, so I do "owe" fidelity, loyalty, etc. Other than that, if you do me a favor because you want to, I don't owe you. And when I do one for you, you don't owe me.
I do understand looking at the numbers, when something is not working out and you need back-up or a reality check. I am a fact person. I was referring to when a MIL says what Holli was saying, or says "You have to give me 10 weekends."
And yes, take the titles out. What would any of us say if our DH/BF/SO said, "You HAVE to have sex 5 times a week, or I'm going to throw a fit and treat you like crap?"
And before anyone answers, remember Luise's forum policies on curse words! Lol. ;D
Pooh, once again, I feel the exact same way :) That is one of my pet peeves as well. My DH actually was raised to think he owed someone if they did him a "favor." Even at work- he is in sales and he'd say the warehouse guys did a good job putting his customer's order together and shipping it quickly so he needed to buy them a case of beer. I'm like...that's their job, isn't it? Why do you owe them? "Well they did me a favor." Everytime they got his order together in a timely fashion. I asked him if he does people favors so that he can get something in return. He said, "no." So I said, well normally nobody else does either...and if they do, well they shouldn't get anything in return for that, LOL!
I also know, as a person, I wouldn't ever WANT someone to spend time with me because they felt like they were obligated or pinned down to it. I want someone to hang out with me because they enjoy it and they want to, not because it's one tick off of their list of required days.
And I would tell my DH good luck with that...LOL. See how that works out for ya! ;)
Oh, it looks like it is going to be one of those days with me.....Sorry!
And another thing that bugs me....Lol. And this is not geared at anyone here in particular, but more at just women in general. This will require honesty on everyone's part. My honesty is that I totally did this with my first marriage. It kind of falls in line with the questions here about how did DIL change so drastically after the wedding or getting a ring. Women are notorious for seeing all the good in a man, and then looking at what we perceive as their flaws, or something we don't like and thinking, "I can change that later."
I said in an earlier post, that my DH's family gets together every month or two for birthday celebrations. Well, I knew that before I married him. I went while we were dating. I also knew that he likes spending time with his family. I knew he talked to his Mother on the phone. Now, although once we were married, I did expect that I would become his priority, meaning if it came down between a birthday celebration and driving me to the hospital, well he better choose correctly. But I know his expectations included that I understood his family was important. I didn't go to all of them with him while we were dating, then after we got married start complaining about going. That would not be fair to him at all. That would be my fault.
I'm not talking about the MILS/DILS here that get treated badly by the family. I'm referring to the fact that I think some women go along with things while dating, with the mindset they will change it later.
Hah! I think it went the opposite with me, he went along with dating me and would change me later. Or I'd come around and see the light. lol. I can honestly say I wasn't out to change DH, the only thing I really noticed was that he was quite rude to his parents and I would mention that. I understood later
Quote from: Pooh on March 31, 2011, 08:01:34 AM
I said in an earlier post, that my DH's family gets together every month or two for birthday celebrations. Well, I knew that before I married him. I went while we were dating. I also knew that he likes spending time with his family. I knew he talked to his Mother on the phone. Now, although once we were married, I did expect that I would become his priority, meaning if it came down between a birthday celebration and driving me to the hospital, well he better choose correctly. But I know his expectations included that I understood his family was important. I didn't go to all of them with him while we were dating, then after we got married start complaining about going. That would not be fair to him at all. That would be my fault.
I'm not talking about the MILS/DILS here that get treated badly by the family. I'm referring to the fact that I think some women go along with things while dating, with the mindset they will change it later.
Guilty here! lol ... I definitely expected that once we got married we would SHARE the holidays instead of his family getting them all. This has been a tough one for MIL to swallow. I hope that she handles it well.
But from what I heard she pestered the you-know-what out of DH to get an answer for his brother's B-day party. He didn't answer her right away because he wanted to make sure with me that we didn't have plans (Good DH). Poor guy she sent him 5-6 text messages plus some from his sister. He replied as soon as he talked to me that night. He wasn't happy. :-\
Pooh, I hope you weren't referring to me saying my DH was raised to think that he owes people for favors. :( I didn't wait till we were engaged or married to voice my concerns... :(
You know, my entire courtship was spent away from the ILs, so I don't think I knew or had any idea what the expectations were.
DH tells me how miserable he was before he met me; he lived at home with his parents for 25 years and went to the movies every Friday and Saturday with them, not his friends, not some girl, not even a blind date that his mom fixed him up on . She was quite content with this arrangement; she always talks about how nice it was and how much she misses it; yet she doesn't acknowledge the toll it took on him.
I know that was his habit, but I never got the impression that was something he wanted to do; I would think that would have to change at some point...and I do wonder if it's the reason he found a wife at all is because he was away from home. And, even though he didn't want me bailing on Saturday and Sunday with them this weekend, when I suggested we go down Friday, he had no intentions of doing that. So, I think in order for DH to have a wife at all, his habits would've needed to change, particularly when he wasn't happy with the arrangment he was living.
I know I'm comparing apples and oranges here; but I do wish that MIL would see that her relationship with him prior to our dating probably wasn't healthy. I know DH wants to spend time with his family, but the amount that is asked of us isn't comfortable for him either.
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on March 31, 2011, 08:25:42 AM
Pooh, I hope you weren't referring to me saying my DH was raised to think that he owes people for favors. :( I didn't wait till we were engaged or married to voice my concerns... :(
Lol, no. I wasn't referring to you or anyone here in particular. More to the in general status of why I think that some DILS (the ones the MILs here are having problems with) go from being nice to a family, then change after marriage.
And let me say this better. I was totally guilty of that in my first marriage. I knew he was irresponsible (Oh, as he matures..that will get better). I knew he was selfish (Oh, as we start having children he will learn life doesn't revolve around him). I knew he switched jobs every few months (Oh, just wait til he finds one he likes. Then he will stick with it.) I knew he drank too much (Oh, we are young. As we get older, he will not do that).
*Raises hand high! Yep, I did that.....
I doubt there is a person in this world who ISN'T guilty of that at one point in time or another. At least you were thinking positive? :)
Quote from: holliberri on March 31, 2011, 08:34:26 AM
DH tells me how miserable he was before he met me; he lived at home with his parents for 25 years and went to the movies every Friday and Saturday with them, not his friends, not some girl, not even a blind date that his mom fixed him up on . She was quite content with this arrangement; she always talks about how nice it was and how much she misses it; yet she doesn't acknowledge the toll it took on him.
I know that was his habit, but I never got the impression that was something he wanted to do; I would think that would have to change at some point...and I do wonder if it's the reason he found a wife at all is because he was away from home. And, even though he didn't want me bailing on Saturday and Sunday with them this weekend, when I suggested we go down Friday, he had no intentions of doing that. So, I think in order for DH to have a wife at all, his habits would've needed to change, particularly when he wasn't happy with the arrangment he was living.
I know I'm comparing apples and oranges here; but I do wish that MIL would see that her relationship with him prior to our dating probably wasn't healthy. I know DH wants to spend time with his family, but the amount that is asked of us isn't comfortable for him either.
That sounds very similar to my situation, HB. DH severely unhappy and depressed before he met me. He had absolutely no self confidence whatsoever. He evolved after he met me just because it was part of the "process" of "growing up" and growing into a healthy, real adult relationship. Just that in itself magnified the unhealthy relationship he allowed his mother to have, I didn't even have to say anything to him. It presented itself.
Confidence. DH uses that word about himself all the time. He said he simply asked me out b/c he finally had confidence that he never had before. I guess military training will do that to you.
I'm glad that I'm his one and only, but man, when I'm fair and unbiased about it, I imagine he missed plenty of good opportunities to date; 24 is kind of late.
Confidence definitely helped my DH grow up.
Quote from: holliberri on March 31, 2011, 10:31:58 AM
Confidence. DH uses that word about himself all the time. He said he simply asked me out b/c he finally had confidence that he never had before. I guess military training will do that to you.
I'm glad that I'm his one and only, but man, when I'm fair and unbiased about it, I imagine he missed plenty of good opportunities to date; 24 is kind of late.
Confidence definitely helped my DH grow up.
24! Wow, I thought I started dating late. I was 21 when I went on my first date! lol
LOL, I was married by then, ADil! It seems awfully young now that I think about it.
I was married and had two kids by then! ;D
Yep, I'm sure on some level we are all guilty. But I did learn. This time, when I saw things, not once did I think I would change him. I looked at everything about him as what makes him who he is and I wouldn't dare change a one of them. For example: When we were dating, I could see how everyone was drawn to him. Men and Women alike. He just has a personality that is contagious and makes you want to be around him. And he loves people. He always paid attention to me in a group setting, but I had to share him. Now that we are married. If I was to get mad because he pays attention to other people, that would be my fault. That's how he's always been and one of the things I love about him.
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on March 31, 2011, 10:39:49 AM
24! Wow, I thought I started dating late. I was 21 when I went on my first date! lol
I thought you were just now 21 :)
No, I'm 25.
Quote from: holliberri on March 31, 2011, 08:34:26 AMDH tells me how miserable he was before he met me; he lived at home with his parents for 25 years and went to the movies every Friday and Saturday with them, not his friends, not some girl, not even a blind date that his mom fixed him up on . She was quite content with this arrangement; she always talks about how nice it was and how much she misses it; yet she doesn't acknowledge the toll it took on him.
See, I was raised like this too. My parents considered themselves to be my best and only friends and were really puzzled and hurt when I wanted to do something else or spend time away from them (and I'm talking in my 20s, not just when I was a kid). I wasn't allowed to stay home when they ran errands together - again, through my teens and 20s - without getting the stink eye and some passive aggressive tantrums as a punishment. I moved out when I was almost 22 and we didn't speak for 3 years, because that was the only way to retrain all of us to have a little more space in our relationship. Even so, they would only accept certain "excuses" for me not spending time with them even after I was married and "I want to spend time with my husband" wasn't on the accepted excuse list. (My marriage ended for its own reasons, but my inability to say no to my parents definitely played a role.)
My son and I have a completely different relationship - he's almost 18 and I enforce a curfew of sorts, for various reasons, but that's pretty much the only demand I make on his time. I find that he actually chooses to spend time with me, doesn't push the curfew (or calls me if he's going to be late), and brings friends over to hang out at our house. He has no trouble telling me no if he disagrees with something, and when we schedule things, I'm as respectful of his time and plans as I am of my own. Our current agreement is that a few months after he turns 18, his little tushie needs to be employed and moving out of our (tiny, tiny) apartment. We love each other, but are both looking forward to living independently, lol. I can't even begin to imagine demanding that he socialize with me or spend specific amounts of time with me. It's not even that I was determined not to be like my parents - I just really can't wrap my head around expecting my adult child to regularly spend time with me.
(P.S. I went on my first date at 21, and married the guy at 22, mostly because my parents made such a fuss about me going on a simple date that it became a question of asserting my independence, rather than just getting to know a guy. I guess I should feel lucky that I didn't end up waiting longer!)
Elsie, you sound like a wonderful MIL in the making. :-)
Elsie,
MY DH met me 3 months before his 25 birthday and had married me by 25 1/2. LOL. We didn't waste anytime either, thankfully.
I think "less is more" is often the way to go.
I'll second that, ADil. LOL.
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on March 31, 2011, 01:20:22 PM
No, I'm 25.
:) I knew you weren't 21 adil
You know I just can't really imagine any parent thinking that their kids and spouses want to spend every holiday with family. I'm like.. go go go, have fun make some memories, enjoy this time when it's just the two of you because once that baby comes.. while fun and great they can be a little demanding :)
Don't get me wrong, I love my kids with all my heart.. but I don't want to live my life through them either. Even when the bf proposed and he asked us to be there.. I was like are you kidding? As it turns out I was the convenient excuse to have a camera ready... ok I'll go for that... I made sure that we were far enough away not to hear their conversation.. that was meant just for them.. well until dd kinda posted it on fb.. but I'm sure she left out some of the details.
I guess what upsets me more is when my dil will drive right past our door to see her parents with ds in tow, and then arrange it to where there is not a second of free time for him to see us, and then told ...oh sorry but I have to work on Monday so we have to leave.. oh did you mention that there was a gift at the house.. well we'll stop by for 15 minutes or so and pick it up on our way out of town.... I guess it's just that sometimes I feel like friend #334
Quote from: Laurie on March 31, 2011, 01:39:06 PM
I guess it's just that sometimes I feel like friend #334
:'( That makes me very sad for you.
Naw don't be sad.. this is only in my dil's eyes.. I'm in the top ten with a lot of people
Oh I'm definitely guilty of just expecting things to change once we got married...but I'm also guilty of going along with everything because I just really wanted his family to like me.
A huge part of it too though is that I grew up with only 1 sister in a family where we rarely saw our extended family and we both always wanted a large family with lots of family gatherings. As it turns out, we've both married men with large families (not surprising) with lots of family obligations.
You may not believe this after everything I've already said, but honestly, in my fantasy world, we WOULD see my ILs as much as we could and my DH would bowl with his Dad every Tuesday and my kids would grow up super close to their GPs (both sets) and I would be BFFs with my MIL and SILs. I would love that. Sadly, I am far from BFFs with my MIL and I'd love to think that our relationship could change, but unfortunately things have only gotten worse over time, not better. Therefore, ANY amount of time I spend with her is extremely stressful and exhausting, and that's a huge part of why we have got to cut down. The stress is/was definitely taking a toll on our marriage. (Btw- MIL bothers DH and SILs as much as she does me - supposedly - they just know from growing up with her that 'that's how she is' and deal with it or brush it off - My parents are so different that it's really hard for me to even begin to deal with her).
I'm now actually contemplating whether I should have instead started a post on how to deal with my MIL and her wretched behavior!! LOL Anyway, again thank you all for all your advice and stories, you are all lovely for sharing! :-)
PS- Elsie- I think your attitude toward your son is awesome and soooo similar to my parents' attitude toward my sister and I (which is also why I have such a hard time dealing with my ILs attitude) and I really do hope I can foster that in my relationship with my own sons. I do have to joke sometimes and repeat to myself that at least my MIL is teaching me what NOT to do when I become a MIL!!! ;-)
It's still kind of sad that you all live in the same area, and she can't be bothered.
Although, SisIL and DB hotel at my mom's and have their family over constantly AND don't have time for any activities. I think my mom thought she was one-up on DB's ILs, until she realized that's an expensive group of people to feed 7 nights in a row, and if they keep SisIL and DB busy from morning until night.
I suppose even if I don't live near my ILs, when we are with them, our time with them is unhindered by other distractions like my family and friends.
Quote from: NotChattyCathy on March 31, 2011, 02:05:45 PM
You may not believe this after everything I've already said, but honestly, in my fantasy world, we WOULD see my ILs as much as we could and my DH would bowl with his Dad every Tuesday and my kids would grow up super close to their GPs (both sets) and I would be BFFs with my MIL and SILs. I would love that. Sadly, I am far from BFFs with my MIL and I'd love to think that our relationship could change, but unfortunately things have only gotten worse over time, not better. Therefore, ANY amount of time I spend with her is extremely stressful and exhausting, and that's a huge part of why we have got to cut down. The stress is/was definitely taking a toll on our marriage. (Btw- MIL bothers DH and SILs as much as she does me - supposedly - they just know from growing up with her that 'that's how she is' and deal with it or brush it off - My parents are so different that it's really hard for me to even begin to deal with her).
I 100% understand where you're coming from; I feel the exact same way. But, I've always alienated myself from people that I thought were too pushy. She doesn't seem particularly interested in working on that.
Quote from: NotChattyCathy on March 31, 2011, 02:05:45 PM
- My parents are so different that it's really hard for me to even begin to deal with her).
Hey Cathy.. this one sentence stuck with me... could it in part be the fact that you are 'dealing' with her. With your parents you know them, love them and probably don't ever view your time with them as a chore to be dealt with. If I read you right I understand fully your choice of words.. at times I feel like I am dealing with my dil, instead of being given a chance to enjoy her company. If we visit them (which has not happened in 1.5 years) she acts like she is put out and once again having to deal with us being there. All we end up with are dreadful sessions of dealing with each other.
Wow, my DH has said the same things too. Lack of confidence, low self esteem. It can't be just a coincidence that our situations as DILs are all so similar with our husbands having these type of backgrounds. It's no wonder. DH has told me that he was never allowed to have friends over or go over to friends houses. No sports or outside activities that his parents couldn't be intimately involved in too. He literally never had a chance to branch out on his own and choose things that normal kids get to choose for themselves. It's quite sad.
He and I actually dated for close to 2 years before I met his parents. He dated other girls but nothing serious at all and he had vowed to never get married/have kids etc. When we started dating and he was singing a different tune about marriage/kids, I asked him what changed? And he said he finally felt the confidence that he could be a good father/husband. He didn't think he had it in him before. So sad.
I guess I'm just dumbfounded.. who would do that to their kids.. better yet.. why?
Quote from: holliberri on March 31, 2011, 02:14:29 PM
Quote from: NotChattyCathy on March 31, 2011, 02:05:45 PM
You may not believe this after everything I've already said, but honestly, in my fantasy world, we WOULD see my ILs as much as we could and my DH would bowl with his Dad every Tuesday and my kids would grow up super close to their GPs (both sets) and I would be BFFs with my MIL and SILs. I would love that. Sadly, I am far from BFFs with my MIL and I'd love to think that our relationship could change, but unfortunately things have only gotten worse over time, not better. Therefore, ANY amount of time I spend with her is extremely stressful and exhausting, and that's a huge part of why we have got to cut down. The stress is/was definitely taking a toll on our marriage. (Btw- MIL bothers DH and SILs as much as she does me - supposedly - they just know from growing up with her that 'that's how she is' and deal with it or brush it off - My parents are so different that it's really hard for me to even begin to deal with her).
I 100% understand where you're coming from; I feel the exact same way. But, I've always alienated myself from people that I thought were too pushy. She doesn't seem particularly interested in working on that.
I understand where you're coming from too. It really doesn't seem like it here, I know. And granted my MIL has made me the angriest I've ever been in my life lol. But I do wish it was a different way. I came from a big family, love big families. Love events and socializing, I'm a pretty big extrovert. So I could have been the DIL they wanted if they gave me some space on the issues I had asked for since the start. Those issues weren't worth it to them to work on/back off/or use some other way to find a nugget of consideration for me, other than if I'm dancing to their tune lol.
I was 12. ;D ;D ;D This guy took me to a Sat. afternoon movie. He walked to my house and we walked from there, but on the way home, he just said, "Here's where I live..." And turned in. ???
Holliberri I feel the same - as soon as I feel like someone is pushy (or just rude) I can get quite standoffish. I feel like perhaps I would be happier or at least more satisfied if I felt like I could speak my mind, but that is not something I have mastered as of yet. Although, I do think it's a dilemma- is it more appropriate to seethe in silence and then have tension you could cut with a knife (but might still keep everyone else at the gathering unaware that there is any discord) or speak your mind, but risk making everyone else uncomfortable?? I always choose option A (more out of cowardice I must admit) and then beat myself up for it because I feel like I should be able to speak my mind. I do have to say though that being the DIL is just a disadvantage in that arena, because my BIL is able to criticize her without it turning into a huge drama. (For example, he can tell her to "back off" and she just does and respects him, if I said that, in exactly the same tone of voice, volume, same everything I can assure you it would NOT go over well). Honestly sometimes I wonder if she isn't purposely trying to manipulate me into blowing up at her in front of other people so that she gets to look like the "vicitim".
Laurie yes I definitely feel like I am always just 'dealing' with my MIL. In fact, every once in a while I do feel like I am enjoying spending time with her and then she goes and says something offensive and I'm stuck in the moment immediately trying to figure out how to 'deal'. My parents were not "perfect" and we definitely have our issues, but I know what to expect from them so, as expected, I'm definitely more relaxed around them. One thing I didn't fully appreciate in my parents, until I got more exposure to the many different ways other people live, was that my parents (and actually most of my friend's parents growing up too) conducted themselves like what I can only describe as "grown-ups" and it just still surprises me when "grown-ups" don't act "grown-up" - so I find it very hard to deal with.
My sister and I often joke that we had no idea how good we had it with our parents! My Dad used to say "it's parents' number 1 responsibility to instill autonomy in their children" like it was a daily mantra. With that said, I cringe at the thought of growing up being responsible for my parents' social life and solely responsible for their happiness. When I've been reading the posts about these husbands who weren't even allowed to have their own life until they got away from their parents' and got married it makes me angry and sad for them. To me that seems like a form of child abuse! I don't mean to sound dramatic, obviously I know the difference between that and true abuse, but it seems at least like mental abuse. My heart goes out to you ladies having to deal with that for ILs. I know that I do have grounds to complain, but at least (for the most part) I know they are rational people...
It does almost sound like a form of abuse.. unfortunately smothering in love and dominance is not illegal. Being my kids best and only friend is not what I was aiming for during their youth.... having a dd who is entering into another family as I speak, I hope that she stays relaxed and the tension isn't there that some of the dil's here describe ... Her bf has only one brother, no sisters so that may make the transition easier.. she's far from a girly girl, so I hope that his mother will be able to relate to her. But yeah I don't see where parents feel that they are helping their kids by keeping them safely tucked away from life
Cathy.. what if instead of looking for the right thing to say.. just say whatever comes to mind...
NCC, I don't think you should really beat yourself up about it. It's hard to know what to do and it's best just to be yourself. I have the opposite problem where I say whatever comes to mind and my in laws do.not.communicate. I felt stupid for a long time b/c I would say "oh look, problem x, what do you all want to do?" and next thing you know there were tears and late night phone calls b/c they can't sleep, they are so upset. They'd spend more time talking about their hurt feelings instead of fixing the problem. lol, I know that doesn't have much to do with your dilemma, but IMO it just means that it doesn't really matter how you are, they simply can't function in, as you say, a grown up way. They can't, it's not you, it's them.
And I do agree that it's definitely not good parenting. In my MILs case its b/c she can't trust anyone to like her, she doesn't even try with outsiders for the most part, so she forces who she can (family and especially, her own children) into doing what she wants and when she wants. She doesn't have the self esteem to even *like* other people, she's too busy feeding herself with emotions. Anything she can grab onto and all this food is coming from others, she takes and takes and shoves into her but she's never full. It even sounds like she has everything she wants in life, she snaps her fingers and gets what she wants from others, but she's still miserable. All those mechanicisms put in place to control people also backfire in her mind, they are only doing it b/c of this, that and the other. She made them, she knows it and she knows she isn't really liked. Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy. Only she can stop it and most of the time when they get to this point, they just can't.
I feel the same Cathy. I am afraid to say something because I don't, want the tears and the victim card pulled on me. If I could manage to take ownership for whatever I say without taking ownership of their hurt feelings, I would be just fine. Haven't figured our how to make that happen yet.
I may have asked this before Holli... but do you think the tears are genuine or a ploy to get her way?
Sunday is Mothering Sunday in the UK ....wonder if I'll get a visit ?
Last weekend my DS spent with DIL FOO , yesterday he said it was his FIL's birthday on Saturday ,
so yes they will be there this weekend too ...My reply ..''Oh that's nice ''....
so it's now three weeks since I saw my GD , they live 45 mins away .
I think it's my DS , who just follows wherever he is told to go .I'm not supposed to object . After all our previous
upsets , I know not to complain . I was told it's not a contest to see who sees the GD the most .!!
It's hard at times , but that zip is firmly shut !.. :-X
I would like to get along with my MIL, but I NEVER want to be her BFF. I don't want to spend time alone with her. Just how I was brought up. My mom never spent time with her MIL alone (until after my dad passed), and she doesn't spend any alone time with my SIL either. So, that type of relationship is just weird to me. Plus she is so pushy, I never know what to say either. Maybe if she were less manipulative I wouldn't mind being around her more, but probably still wouldn't want to--at least at this point, maybe when kids come along?
In my experience, ADil...having kids makes all of that worse. It increased my insecurities, and it increased her manipulation, expecations and invasions of my own personal bubble of space. It was manageable before: I could leave the room and she didn't notice, or didn't care. Now, if I leave the room with DD, she cares.
I really thought us both loving DD would give us something extra in common, but it hasn't worked out that way.
Quote from: lancaster lady on April 01, 2011, 12:48:47 AM
Sunday is Mothering Sunday in the UK ....wonder if I'll get a visit ?
Last weekend my DS spent with DIL FOO , yesterday he said it was his FIL's birthday on Saturday ,
so yes they will be there this weekend too ...My reply ..''Oh that's nice ''....
so it's now three weeks since I saw my GD , they live 45 mins away .
I think it's my DS , who just follows wherever he is told to go .I'm not supposed to object . After all our previous
upsets , I know not to complain . I was told it's not a contest to see who sees the GD the most .!!
It's hard at times , but that zip is firmly shut !.. :-X
GD aside, I don't know a lot about Mothering Sunday, but Mother's Day here is meant to celebrate your mom; that by default means mothers of the DHs should be celebrated too. Pardon me, but I do believe you're owed a visit, if not ON that day, very near to AROUND that day.
Quote from: Laurie on March 31, 2011, 06:46:45 PM
I may have asked this before Holli... but do you think the tears are genuine or a ploy to get her way?
I don't seem much difference:
If they are genuine, it takes the focus off the issue and places them on her hurt feelings. Nothing gets resolved.
If they are to get her way, it prevents the issue from ever being handled and instead makes a project over trying to make her happy. Nothing gets resolved.
I don't want my DIL to be my BFF either. I have a couple of BFFs who I love very much. And we tell each other everything, including marital things that I wouldn't want to share with my DIL and I'm sure she wouldn't want to hear.
I want my DIL to be an equal. Someone that I could hug and say "So how's work going?" "Did you ever get that tree planted that you wanted?" "Did you talk DS into getting the puppy?" I want my DIL to smile at me and DH, because she's happy to know that if anything happened and she needed us, we would be there. I want to spoil her...Lol. I know that sounds kind of weird, but that's what my vision of DILs was. I have been there as a woman. Trying to get started in life with worries about work, home and future children. I remember not having a moment to myself and putting myself last because there was so much to do. So I wanted to be able to whisk her away on a Saturday for lunch and a mani/pedi. I wanted to be able to call her and say, "Hey. You said you really wanted my chili recipe. I am going to be making it this weekend. If you don't have plans, you want to come for dinner? And come over early and see how I make it?" And I want her to say either, "Oh that would be great. I will bring that recipe for my apple pie you liked so much. Or, oh man...we already made plans...can we do it another weekend?" And if/when children come along, I want her to think, "Their GM loves them so much, and I could use a break for a couple of hours, think I will call to see if they want them for a little while Friday evening so me and DS can have some alone time." And I want to keep the GC for those couple of hours, or overnight (whatever they as the parents choose) because I love my GC, and also remember how hard it is to get some alone time.
I want to do all this, on an equal timetable. No schedule, no pressures, no feelings that anyone HAS to do this. Everyone doing it because they want to. I would feel like she wanted me in their life, and she would feel like I wanted her in mine. I want her to see me not as DS's Mother, not as her MIL and not her BFF. I want her to see me as her family. My perfect world.
Quote from: Pooh on April 01, 2011, 05:44:20 AM
I don't want my DIL to be my BFF either. I have a couple of BFFs who I love very much. And we tell each other everything, including marital things that I wouldn't want to share with my DIL and I'm sure she wouldn't want to hear.
I want my DIL to be an equal. Someone that I could hug and say "So how's work going?" "Did you ever get that tree planted that you wanted?" "Did you talk DS into getting the puppy?" I want my DIL to smile at me and DH, because she's happy to know that if anything happened and she needed us, we would be there. I want to spoil her...Lol. I know that sounds kind of weird, but that's what my vision of DILs was. I have been there as a woman. Trying to get started in life with worries about work, home and future children. I remember not having a moment to myself and putting myself last because there was so much to do. So I wanted to be able to whisk her away on a Saturday for lunch and a mani/pedi. I wanted to be able to call her and say, "Hey. You said you really wanted my chili recipe. I am going to be making it this weekend. If you don't have plans, you want to come for dinner? And come over early and see how I make it?" And I want her to say either, "Oh that would be great. I will bring that recipe for my apple pie you liked so much. Or, oh man...we already made plans...can we do it another weekend?" And if/when children come along, I want her to think, "Their GM loves them so much, and I could use a break for a couple of hours, think I will call to see if they want them for a little while Friday evening so me and DS can have some alone time." And I want to keep the GC for those couple of hours, or overnight (whatever they as the parents choose) because I love my GC, and also remember how hard it is to get some alone time.
I want to do all this, on an equal timetable. No schedule, no pressures, no feelings that anyone HAS to do this. Everyone doing it because they want to. I would feel like she wanted me in their life, and she would feel like I wanted her in mine. I want her to see me not as DS's Mother, not as her MIL and not her BFF. I want her to see me as her family. My perfect world.
That would be my perfect world too.
"Did you talk DH into getting a puppy?" would be: "DH doesn't want a puppy? Oh well then, I say he's right. It's a lot of responsibility and very expensive: vet bills, food, and not to mention the attention a dog needs" in my reality, though. If we're in a disagreement, instead of saying "Oh, you two will have to work that out, then" she becomes a referree/coach, but mostly DH's cheerleader.
We could talk about PLENTY if that would just stop. Laughing at us trying to hash these things out instead of trying to be Mrs. Fix it (which really only creates derision) or our own marriage counselor would go a LOOONG way.
Pooh.......I wanna come and live in your world. !
Yeah, well then she's stupid HB! Lol. My answer if you followed that up with "No, I keep trying. I want one and he doesn't" would be, "Well, maybe you guys can reach a compromise. And remember, there will be something come up that HE wants in the future and then you just might have a bargaining tool!"
So when we talk about unsolicited advice here, that's the kind I give. I can't help it. It just kind of comes out normally in a humorous manner. It's not meant to be THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO DO.
Quote from: lancaster lady on April 01, 2011, 05:57:00 AM
Pooh.......I wanna come and live in your world. !
Me too LL...wish we could find that dang country.
Where is the MIL swap at? I'm totally trading mine for Pooh!
I feel like there's a line out the door to marry her second son. LOL.
I know I'm bias because he's mine, but whoever gets my second one, will be a very lucky lady. He has that perfect combination of humor and responsibility. Of course, he's a redhead...so they will have to be patient.
It's kind of funny. He's only had two serious GF's, and both of them I absolutely loved. But he's not dated at all since being in the military. I do think he has a crush on someone there where he's at now. He has posted a couple of things on his FB about a girl, which is odd for him. His one post said, "Passing my first UAV test...easy. Having class from 2300 to 0800...hard. Getting beat by a girl in the 6 mile canyon run...PRICELESS." Then a couple of days later, something about finally beating her by 3 seconds. Hmmmm.....
Maybe I should start a new business here where I live called, "Adopt a DIL/MIL." Maybe we could match up DILs with MILs with similar expectations...Lol. Probably have a line around the block!
And I want to thank you guys. You make me feel like I'm not so bad. And I shake my head at your stories about your MILs thinking, these women are stupid not to see how lucky they are to have you. It truly is their loss as you guys are wonderful.
I've got dibbs on Pooh, but I'll share. :) The more the merrier, got to spread the in law wealth! I've also kind of adopted Laurie although I'm not sure she's aware of it. I figure the more pseudo GOOD MILS I have, the better my mental health. :)
Quote from: pam1 on March 31, 2011, 02:31:30 PM
Wow, my DH has said the same things too. Lack of confidence, low self esteem. It can't be just a coincidence that our situations as DILs are all so similar with our husbands having these type of backgrounds. It's no wonder. DH has told me that he was never allowed to have friends over or go over to friends houses. No sports or outside activities that his parents couldn't be intimately involved in too. He literally never had a chance to branch out on his own and choose things that normal kids get to choose for themselves. It's quite sad.
He and I actually dated for close to 2 years before I met his parents. He dated other girls but nothing serious at all and he had vowed to never get married/have kids etc. When we started dating and he was singing a different tune about marriage/kids, I asked him what changed? And he said he finally felt the confidence that he could be a good father/husband. He didn't think he had it in him before. So sad.
Once again, Pam...I'm feeling that sisterly connection. My DH never ever wanted kids before I came along. Like, he was dead set against them. Then all of a sudden he wanted them. At the same time he was all of a sudden gaining confidence and self esteem. I think that's part of the reason my ILs "liked me" at first- they are obsessed with babies and kids and always tried to pressure him into having them, so they liked that he changed his mind after he met me.
Yep, thats why I was initially liked at first too OW. My presence was making him into what they wanted, so to speak. He was more family oriented, visited them more, spoke about marriage/kids. I was the knees bees....for a little while lol.
I think a WWU meet up would be so awesome one day. You know how some celebrities due cruise events, maybe Luise can put one on and we could all go. I bet she'd get a following.
Uh, Laurie and I have a pre-arranged unspoken agreement. ;) She's my wannabe MIL. LOL.
But I suppose if you take those rats, I'll never be able to compete. :D
Quote from: Pooh on April 01, 2011, 06:25:52 AM
Maybe I should start a new business here where I live called, "Adopt a DIL/MIL." Maybe we could match up DILs with MILs with similar expectations...Lol. Probably have a line around the block!
My DH doesn't get along with his mom. Think I could adopt a MIL and tell him "This is your new mommy. Deal with it!" LOL
Actually, it would probably work ADIL. There's meet ups in most major cities for motherless daughters to connect with an older woman. They've done pretty well. You might be onto something
WWU cruise! That would be awesome!
Although if we make the news, I'll be the one with the jacket over my head. Sorry, I'm not sure this would go over well at all! LOL.
LOL, Laurie and Pooh can do all the interviews and stuff.
Is it horrible that I am glad FIL/MIL are getting divorced because I'm hoping FIL might remarry someone who likes me?
LOL, yes.
MIL won't be going away when they divorce, will she?
Plus, there is ALWAYS worse, isn't there?
Yeah, you really want to deal with a step mother in law? I've heard they are waaaaay worse ;D Two of the most feared women in history, the stepmom and mother in law all mashed up into one.
Actually.... :-( We are expecting a very MESSY end to the divorce. MIL has been painting FIL to be some kind of horrible monster who is cheating on her that no one should have anything to do with when in actuality SHE is having an affair. FIL's lawyer has evidence of this and we are expecting FIL to take basically everything in the divorce. We know that she will force us to choose sides. "If you see me you CAN'T see FIL." Well, we will be siding with FIL.
He is the sweetest, kindest man ever. I hope that he finds someone just as sweet as him. But, he will most likely stay single. :-(
My DH is just like his dad. :-)
My dad stayed single. I wish he would fine someone, too. I don't even have to like her.
Quote from: holliberri on April 01, 2011, 07:05:06 AM
Uh, Laurie and I have a pre-arranged unspoken agreement. ;) She's my wannabe MIL. LOL.
But I suppose if you take those rats, I'll never be able to compete. :D
No Holli... only you like Pink.... if you can't have some music and wine in common then it's hard to have a relationship ... Now how do you feel about the Beatles
Here Come's the Sun....
Quote from: pam1 on April 01, 2011, 07:03:47 AM
Yep, thats why I was initially liked at first too OW. My presence was making him into what they wanted, so to speak. He was more family oriented, visited them more, spoke about marriage/kids. I was the knees bees....for a little while lol.
Yeah, DH was so pleasant and happy and fun to be around for them...they just LOVED it until they realized he was so happy with his life that he wanted to actually LIVE it instead of stay in their bubble...that's when they realized I am actually the devil in disguise..
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on April 01, 2011, 07:24:25 AM
Actually.... :-( We are expecting a very MESSY end to the divorce. MIL has been painting FIL to be some kind of horrible monster who is cheating on her that no one should have anything to do with when in actuality SHE is having an affair. FIL's lawyer has evidence of this and we are expecting FIL to take basically everything in the divorce. We know that she will force us to choose sides. "If you see me you CAN'T see FIL." Well, we will be siding with FIL.
He is the sweetest, kindest man ever. I hope that he finds someone just as sweet as him. But, he will most likely stay single. :-(
My DH is just like his dad. :-)
I think I'd stay as far removed from this one as I could. ... and don't take sides... Like the relationships here it's impossible to see the whole picture... FIL could be sweet on the outside... MIL could be reacting due to something behind closed doors etc ... either way, you sure wouldn't want them taking up sides if it was you and your hubby.. (although they would :)
How long have they been married Adil? You would think that after several years of marriage that they would have learned how to constructively communicate .. oh maybe divorce is the constructive results. I just hate seeing any relationship end this way... but I guess it's better then living your life while feeling like you are really missing out on a personal need.
I have to echo what Laurie said. This is definately going to be hard to negotiate for you guys. She may be all those things, but she is still his Mother....tough situation. I'm sure it is exactly as you say, but I went through this with my divorce. He left me for another woman, and when I went to see my lawyer...she said, "So who are you sleeping with?" I was taken back and insulted by her words and spat out harshly, "NO ONE!" She just smiled and said, "You will be before it's over." She was right, although I didn't believe her. Within the next month, he told everyone, including my Sons that it me that was having the affair is why he did and left. I still think my OS thinks I was, even though I assured him I wasn't. That may be part of my problems with him because he is remaining close to his father.
Totally untrue but he was trying everything he could to make me out to be the bad guy.
And Laurie, after 20 years, we still couldn't communicate. I could, he couldn't.
And I am officially adopting Laurie as my Sister, whether she likes it or not. So now you guys that have claimed her as your MIL, have to put up with me being your MIL-IL...ha ha ha ha ha.
Communciation problems ended a 17 year marriage for my parents. Communication problems also led to my mom's 2 affairs.
It happens. Despite all of that, it has NOTHING to do with me. They're still my parents and they were both wonderful to me, loving and supportive. That's all that matters.
And for that, I am very proud of you HB. Divorce is hard on everyone and most kids don't understand that it's not about them at all.
Quote from: Pooh on April 01, 2011, 07:53:17 AM
And I am officially adopting Laurie as my Sister, whether she likes it or not. So now you guys that have claimed her as your MIL, have to put up with me being your MIL-IL...ha ha ha ha ha.
OH SWEET, during family gatherings, I get to have you both!!! We will get into lots of trouble!! :)
That would be a fun gathering...and you're right. I can see us both now going, ok....Pam, OW, HB, ADIL, LL...bring black hoodies and black pants...we have a mission....
Well this mother/sister/friend is going for a pedicure I just decided... Oh I did go yesterday and have my hair streaked/lightened.. this is step one of going gray.. My dh loved it I did to, but when I stumbled to the bathroom sink this morning and looked up I was a little shocked lol.. ok really shocked... really really shocked
He's gonna be shocked too when he sees the bill... all I said was ... remember doing anything gracefully is expensive. Needless to say my mani/pedi today is going to be cash... I'm gonna lie my butt off and say that I got them yesterday as a part of this bill.
As I said.. it's all in the communication :)
I'd love that! LOL.
Pooh, I got tripped up in sides as well for a little while; for about 6 years or so. It took distance and perspective to get past it.
I just wasted an awful lot of unnecessary time; I'd hate to see ADil and her DH get into a situation like that.
I keep fighting the gray Laurie and it's winning. I keep going back to my brown, because I am truly not blonde, and then within 2 weeks, big ole' white streak down the middle. I look like a backwards skunk. So 3 weeks ago, I did the same thing..got all over blonde highlights again. I do like it but it always takes me about a week to be able to look in a mirror without gasping.
And I am not even getting into the cost.......I will leaving to go sell my plasma now.....
They've been married for 32 years. FIL was her "rebound" guy. She was engaged, but it was broken off. She went on a trip across the country, met FIL, had a long distance relationship for I think 6 months to a year and married him. He moved here with her family and had very limited contact with his. She got rid of their long distance because she didn't like him calling his family. Then he had to get a PO Box to even send letters because she would throw them out. :-(
It is very true that there are two sides to every story. I would give MIL the benefit of the doubt, IF she hadn't moved her BF into their basement (he is a coworker. She used to spend the night at his house frequently) and then "recommend" that FIL move out. FIL has videos of MIL and BF making out (I've seen them, DH is in A/V so FIL had DH transfer them to computer files). BF has also openly admitted that he is having an affair with MIL. (Seriously? Who openly admits to that?! He mustn't be right in the head.)
I do know that FIL isn't "perfect" and he has had his issues in the past (an affair when DH was very young--20 yrs. ago maybe?), but they supposedly moved past that. I think it is very sad when a marriage ends, but in their case it is for the best. No one should have to be in a marraige that makes them miserable.
In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to choose sides (and I do hope we don't have to), but it is what we are preparing for. About a month after our wedding they had a "family meeting" (I was excluded. Praise the LORD! lol) about the upcoming divorce. DH told him after that 3+ hour meeting that he didn't want to know anything until it was all over. MIL freaked out on him "No one "gets" anything from this divorce! Just your father and me." Well, no *bleep* Sherllock. DH didn't want anything he just wanted to be left out of it.
Quote from: holliberri on April 01, 2011, 08:06:10 AM
I'd love that! LOL.
Pooh, I got tripped up in sides as well for a little while; for about 6 years or so. It took distance and perspective to get past it.
I just wasted an awful lot of unnecessary time; I'd hate to see ADil and her DH get into a situation like that.
It's very hard not to get tripped up. Remember my story of never meeting my Dad and how badly he treated my Mom, before I was around? When you see that, it's hard not to take up for the perceived good parent. It took me a long time to recognize it had nothing to do with me and give him a chance.
I hope if it is an issue with my OS, that someday he will see the truth.
How old is OS? I know how old YS is.
How long ago did you get divorced?
Pooh, is there room for one more MIL in your perfect world? I love the description, that's what I was hoping for too. My DIL does all that stuff with her FOO and would rather die than join me for lunch or a mani/pedi or a recipe swap. I wanted to spoil her at first but she cut us off, so that ended that. To be honest, I was hoping DH & I could be friends with DIL's FOO...not super close, but the occasional BBQ or outing. They are definitely not interested; the one time DS tried to get us all together they shunned us.
My MIL and I would have had a good, close relationship if she hadn't lived so far away. She was wonderful. Now I have a SMIL...she wants to be BFFs since no one else likes her but she's done some mean things and I can't warm up to her. Of course I'm kind and respectful, but I don't want to do lunch IYKWIM. I'm glad FIL has someone, but it's changed the whole family dynamic. Speaking of SMILs, my DH, who is accepting and kind towards everyone, hates his (my SM.) Be careful what you wish for!
ADIL, my thoughts are with you & your DH. It's not fun, is it? My FOO blew up a few years ago and it changed everything. Thank goodness my DH is a rock. He's kept everything in perspective. When his FOO blew up he became the rock for them as well.
Geez Laurie, I've had two pedis in the time you've had 6, I think. I'd better get on it since it looks like it'll be sandals weather for awhile. And in a moment of fiscal responsibility I decided to go back to coloring my hair myself...yikes. Back to letting the pros do it, LOL.
I used to be a blonde back in college, but I decided I wasn't cut out for the upkeep. My roots are dark brown, so I was having to constantly go get my roots done. I just don't have the patience for that...
Now mani/pedis...yes. I have a gift card that my DH gave me to go get one done, but this month has been so stressful I've been biting my nails, now I have to wait till they grow back out!!
ADIL, my Ex moved his GF in 2 days after leaving me. His Sons saw that. But him telling them, he did what he did, because of what I did, confused them. They could see with their own eyes what he was doing, but had to rely on him for information on what I had done. There was no evidence of me doing anything, because it wasn't happening. But he wasn't stupid and picked a guy that we had both been friends with for years. A guy that my Sons had seen me cut up with and hug, in their presence. They knew their Dad was friends with him as well, but that made it easy for them to believe that he and I were sneaking around.
The one thing I was adament about was not pulling my Sons into the divorce. I did not give them any details, and I did not discuss the divorce with them or what their Dad was doing. Unfortunately, their Dad didn't do the same. They would come in and say, "Why are you trying to make Dad do XXXXX and XXXXX. That's not fair Mom." I would calmly tell them that it wasn't true and I was sorry their Dad said that to them. But that was it. I could have pulled out my lawyer papers and proved it to them and that he was lying, but I didn't. I did everything possible to not do that to them. He constantly put me in a position of needing to defend myself to my Sons, but I never showed them any documents or pictures. That would have been so unfair to them.
So I feel bad for your DH having to see that.
I dunno, ADIL...I would just stay far away from it as possible. I don't think your DH even really needs to know the details of the divorce. My parents divorced when I was younger and we simply didn't have those problems b/c they specifically didn't include us. I think they handled it really well and your in laws don't sound like they are going to do that. If it was me, I'd simply not talk about it ever with them. Set a precedent now, otherwise it'll be that much harder to break in the future. They really can't force you guys to pick sides unless you let yourself get involved, just my 2 cents.
Quote from: Pen on April 01, 2011, 08:19:10 AM
Pooh, is there room for one more MIL in your perfect world?
Absolutely! You are always welcome to my perfect world country, where MILs and DILs live in harmony and fun. I think I shall call it "Xanadu" because I always loved that movie and it just sounds cool....
Oh man,
All this beauty stuff is making me feel bad. I found a chin whisker, I haven't had a haircut since September 2010, and my legs don't get shaved in the winter. I can't quite justify the money on pedicures just yet.
Sandals, Pen!? Wow. It snowed here today. I don't remember it ever snowing in April.
Pen is definitely included. I don't want to be spoiled, but I need some interesting conversation.
Quote from: holliberri on April 01, 2011, 08:16:51 AM
How old is OS? I know how old YS is.
How long ago did you get divorced?
My OS is 22. I have been divorced for 3 years.
It wouldn't be the same without you, Pen :)
Well, if it means anything, the magic number for me was 23, and my parents had been divorced 8 years. I'm not sure why. I just remember that was the year I started seeing things differently.
Quote from: holliberri on April 01, 2011, 08:27:15 AM
Oh man,
All this beauty stuff is making me feel bad. I found a chin whisker, I haven't had a haircut since September 2010, and my legs don't get shaved in the winter. I can't quite justify the money on pedicures just yet.
Sandals, Pen!? Wow. It snowed here today. I don't remember it ever snowing in April.
Pen is definitely included. I don't want to be spoiled, but I need some interesting conversation.
LOL, Holli, I have a chin whisker too. I have to pluck it every once in awhile. Just one thin black hair that keeps coming back. Luckily it's underneath my chin so it wouldn't be very visible to other people. I always thought I was too young for that...I'm glad to know its not just me!!
And Pen, of course you will be included!!! You are on the "awesome MILs" list!
When I was in my 20s I was driving with a friend who suddenly reached over and plucked a looonnng black hair from under my chin. How could I have not seen it myself? At my tender young age I didn't even think to look, LOL. I guess the sun was in the right spot for it to be visible just then.
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on April 01, 2011, 08:22:57 AM
I used to be a blonde back in college, but I decided I wasn't cut out for the upkeep. My roots are dark brown, so I was having to constantly go get my roots done. I just don't have the patience for that...
Now mani/pedis...yes. I have a gift card that my DH gave me to go get one done, but this month has been so stressful I've been biting my nails, now I have to wait till they grow back out!!
My roots are definitively not dark any more... ok half of them aren't. I honestly didn't know how gray I was until I let my hair go for 8 weeks without any color.. I can pin point the gray coming at this escalated rate and it was when I was diagnosed with a melanoma ... my dermatologist said that this was not really that uncommon.
Pen.. I know I'm addicted to pedi's like it's my own personal cocaine habit.. but it has been 3 weeks... How I justify it is, I do my own yard, my own house cleaning... ok I did hire out to have the rocks moved :) Last week I washed my own car ... in this neighborhood I look like such an oddity out doing my own work.. it's not that the neighborhood is that nice.. I think people are just to busy at the gym to walk behind a mower :)
Quote from: Pooh on April 01, 2011, 08:28:29 AM
My OS is 22. I have been divorced for 3 years.
You have been living happily for 3 years ... kids don't always see parents as people with needs/wants/a life.. he'll come around.
That gives me hope Holli. ;D There's just 17 months between them. YS turned 21 this month, OS will be 23 in October. YS was in his Senior year of High School and OS was in his first year of College, both still at home at the time. I do think I was lucky that they were older so I didn't have to deal with child support or visitation.
And ADIL, I don't want you think I was picking on you. I know that you guys are in a very tough position and it can't be easy on you.
Quote from: Laurie on April 01, 2011, 08:45:46 AM
Quote from: Pooh on April 01, 2011, 08:28:29 AM
My OS is 22. I have been divorced for 3 years.
You have been living happily for 3 years ... kids don't always see parents as people with needs/wants/a life.. he'll come around.
I truly have been, and was very blessed to find a truly good man. I would never had dreamed it would have happened so quickly and would have called you an idiot if you told me that during the divorce. I was in the "never again" mode and he had to work hard to break down those walls, bless his heart.
I certainly hope you are right.
Am I the odd one out here ?
I've been married for 39 years this year !
Also , my son thought the white stripe in my hair was a new fashion statement !! Cheek !
So my hairdresser stripped all the dark out of my hair and now I'm a ''natural blonde '' ...lol
Looks ok ...I get highlights in the summer , don't know about having more fun though ....blondes that is ...lol
PS ....when do we go to this new LaLa land we are creating ??
Wow LL, congrats!
Pssshh....I'm there now...just reading and writing on these threads with all of you wonderful women.
Pooh, I didn't think you were picking on me. I was *gasp* working! LOL I agree, I would much rather not hear about any of it until it is all said and done. "We're divorced." Because it really isn't any of our business. And that was the point DH was trying to make when his DM freaked out on him.
And I for one, don't want to hear any more from FIL because it's, well, DEPRESSING! lol It really drags me down. Plus sometimes I wanna look at him and scream "TMI!!!!! TMI!!!!!" LOL
He says he is going to have the papers served by Father's Day. I hope that he does it soon (but after Easter because we are supposed to see them all lol).
ADil,
I get what you mean about TMI...my dad just unloaded when he drank. He would cry and talk about how wonderful my mom was and what he could've done to change. He's better about that now, but it was tough, and it's SO uncomfortable hearing it b/c you don't know what to say. I never knew how to tell him to stop talking about my mom.
Hee hee. I looked at my Boss when I walked in and announced I didn't feel like working today. He went, "Ok, me neither." Gotta luv a boss like that.
Since I have two screens for my computer and one is the WWU page.
I don't even care if anyone sees; it's Friday, and it's April Fool's and SNOWING outside. LOL.
If I'm not on here Monday it's because WWU will be blocked.
Scratch that, I have my smartphone. I'll still be here. ;)
I have 3 going on my desk. One is on WWU, the other two work. I am actually sitting here in between working on data...blech. And now I am getting instant messages from the Dispatchers wanting me to go get them lunch! Lol.
Quote from: holliberri on April 01, 2011, 09:11:09 AM
Scratch that, I have my smartphone. I'll still be here. ;)
You need to think about getting a smarter phone.. we can ALWAYS tell when you are communicating through tiny buttons
Funny, Holli!! I LOVE my Dual Screens.... One can be seen if someone glances down the hall at me so it only ever has "work" on it. The other can't be seen unless you are in my office. That screen is graced with a multitude of "fun" things LOL
I use a 32" tv as my monitor.... if the UPS man comes to my door to deliver a package (I love internet shopping) he can see what he will be bringing me the following week... I love helping those guys in brown plan their schedules
LOL, it's actually a touch screen. It's that autocorrect you've sent me links about before.
Both screens are wide open for all to see. I'm normally low key about it, but it's not a low key day.
I think I need 3 like Pooh has. Maybe they won't care what is on a third screen.
Laurie, seriously? You show them that?
Quote from: holliberri on April 01, 2011, 09:21:44 AM
Laurie, seriously? You show them that?
LOL no.. but my dh claims that I'm on first name basis... I said no Ron and I are more distant then that
This is OT from the main thread, but I drag my UPS man, Glenn, into the house to see the baby's newest pictures.
That's okay FAFE, my g-ma copied her photo of DD to give to the cashier at the grocery store. Never met that cashier. Neither has DD. LOL.
Quote from: NotChattyCathy on March 30, 2011, 07:41:27 AM
Hi everyone,
This is my first post, so thanks in advance for reading and any input you have!
So the general story is that between birthdays, celebrated holidays, family traditions, etc. there are on average 2 family gatherings a month on my DHs side and that does NOT include a weekend all together in the winter to go skiing and also an entire week together every summer.
Unless we have an excuse that is acceptable TO THEM for missing any of these get-togethers, his parents get very angry and it becomes a problem. Up until recently it was something that caused my husband and I a lot of arguments because he didn't mind spending so much time with them (his attitude was like "I love my family and I love my wife - I get the best of both worlds!") - whereas for me, as much as I do enjoy spending time with his family, I also love spending time with MY family, our friends, alone with each other, and at times alone by myself. And now that we have 2 kids of our own, it's very important to us to spend a lot of time together as our own family unit.
My husband travels a lot more for work now too (sometimes over weekends) and our free time has become even more precious to us than it was before. We have MUCH less time for ourselves or to spend with friends or relaxing, but the number of family obligations has only increased over time (like I said, they celebrate EVERY birthday so with every new grandchild, a new occasion to have a family party). It bothers me that it becomes an issue if I don't want to have a family party with his family when it's MY birthday - what if I want to celebrate with MY family or with my friends or with just my husband and children??? Mother's Day also bothers me, we HAVE to have a party for his mom ON Mother's Day (which I'm required to help prepare food for every year), but what if I wanted to celebrate with my mom, or shock of shocks, enjoy Mother's Day with just my husband and children since I'M a mom now too??
Finally my husband and I are on the same page about this and he also sees the number of family obligations as extreme and also his parents' behavior as inappropriate if we don't attend one. An additional problem to this is that his 2 sisters may well feel the same way, but they always go along with their parents and never speak up. The last thing we want is for relationships to be damaged, but how do we reason with them if they just won't accept "logical reason"??
Move far away.
:P 8) ;D :P 8) ;D ::)
Quote from: FAFE on April 01, 2011, 12:47:16 PM
This is OT from the main thread, but I drag my UPS man, Glenn, into the house to see the baby's newest pictures.
That's funny... my first 'regular' UPS man was also named Glenn.. maybe it's a requirement :) My man in brown also keeps his daughter's Chihuahua, .. lol.. we have so much in common :)