Luise, I want to preface this by saying that everything you have told us about how you handled your own sons moving out was ringing in my ears while what I'm going to describe below was happening. You have no idea how helpful and comforting all of it was to me. Thank you.
So - DS is nearly 18, and for months and months now we've really been struggling with how big the gulf is between my boundaries and his adherence to them. It got particularly bad after he graduated from high school this past June, and seemed determined to live like an equal adult in my home and do whatever he pleased, as though I simply wasn't there.
I don't like using "so you'll need to move out" as a threat - if I'm not going to follow through, I don't want to say it. But a few weeks ago, we got to that point - I told him he'd have to move out, and a day later he came to me and asked what he had to do to be able to stay. I laid out a set of rules that he'd have to keep and follow to be able to stay. Nothing excessively complicated or demanding - go to family therapy with me, quit inviting random friends over in the evenings when I'm home (especially overnight - I often wake up at 3 am to pee, only to find someone I didn't give birth to sleeping on the couch), no illegal substances, get and keep a job.
He has not been able to keep up his end of the bargain, so (after waking up to his girlfriend having been an overnight guest, beer bottles on the balcony, and him refusing to go to our therapy appointment yesterday morning because he was "too tired and therapy's useless anyway") I told him he had to be out by the end of this month (he will be 18 by then). Much drama ensued, although he did actually show up at the therapy appointment. He was in a towering rage, to the point where the therapist called in a second therapist, he stormed out after cursing at both of them and getting in their faces, and I got a lovely phone call a couple of hours later from one of the therapists asking me if I was ok and felt safe, and whether I thought DS was a danger to himself or others. Good times.
I stayed away all day, to give both of us time to calm down. I did not try to call him, and although I was worried he'd trash the apartment in retaliation, I didn't go near it. Spent the whole day in a mall at the movies and sitting in a coffee shop reading. By the time I came home very late last night, he had slept and was calm enough to talk. I reiterated that, just because we were both calmer, nothing had changed. I still expected him to move out. We were actually able to talk about the logistics of that, and set out some ground rules. He will not be welcome back in my home, period. No matter whether he can make his next living situation work or not, he can't come back to my place. But I will help him out financially (within very specific guidelines). We ended the conversation on pretty good terms. He seemed a lot less scared about leaving, and actually initiated a hug.
I love him, but I absolutely cannot live with him any more. I don't think there is a coincidence that this comes so hard on the heels of my cut off last week of all contact with my bullying, verbally abusive ex-husband (actually sent him an email asking him never to contact me again, and then blocked him from my email and phone, after some ridiculous demanding emails and voice mails from him). I have hit my absolute maximum in terms of living my life as the victim of other people's lack of boundaries or respect. Just can't do it any more.
((((elsieshaye)))) Good for you.
E - We all get to "I can't do it any more" when we do. We are all different and whatever "it" is, is different, as well. If we do the work, take in the love available here, listen, and obseve ourselves instead of fixating on others...we just arrive there. We round a corner and we say..."Ah, what other people think of me is none of my business and what I think of myself is where change can happen."
Good for you! You matter. Your life matters. Your contribution to your family matters. And in the "now," each person has to take it from there. That is the way out of entanglement...and the road to healing for everyone concerned. Look to your feelings...they will steer you through this. What do you need? Give it to yourself! Sending love...
Agreed - and by the way, that was really nice of you to help him out financially.
I'm sorry you are going through this, but you are doing the right thing. Your son is way out of line. You need to have a sane life. My aunt had a similar issue with her son. In the end, she did kick him out and they are very close now. I have a feeling that if your son is scared, he can't rely on his father, but he can rely on you... he will grow up and by his mid twenties be a responsible person who will come back to you. I think you are doing the right thing. He has to grow up and you are handing out tough love. I also mentioned in another post that a friend of mine kicked her son out and he didn't speak to her for six years. In those six years, he put himself through college, realized mom was right to kick him out and now they have a good relationship. Even if it doesn't work out and he's still angry by his mid twenties, you have done the right thing. He has to grow up. I left my parent's house at age 19 and was an adult. I worked, lived on my own and put myself through college. My father steered me onto the right path with some financial help like you are doing, but I still had to work. One parent has to act the adult and that seems to be you. My mother was not an adult and I was going in the wrong direction as a teen. You sound like my aunt and father... the parent who takes responsibility and says... grow up. Sounds like your ex doesn't know how to make your son become a man, but you do... and that's okay. My aunt made her son into the man he is today. My father made me into the woman I am today. You sound like both mom and dad and that happens to many parents. Good for you to cut off all communication with your ex. You don't need that. I think you are also being very constructive with your son and generous. You have a plan and he needs structure. Sounds like a great plan to me! I wish you all the best. You are totally doing the right thing. If he can't act like an adult in your house, he can't stay there. I like that you have rules for how he should conduct his life on his own. I like that too. It's great that you can talk to other parents who have been there, done that and can show you the way. I haven't been in this situation, but my commen sense screams... yes, you are doing the right thing. You deserve to have calm. I wish you the best in this.
E: Keep staying strong. I think you said it best when you said your talk helped some of you DS fear. This is a very tough age balancing between adulthood, responsibility and still wanting to be a twelve year old, throwing tantrums.
I think when we find our boundary with one person (like you have with your X-H), then it follows that other boundaries will start to feel appropriate as well. In this way I think we do our AC a favor by showing what is appropriate and what will not be tolerated. Sometimes it seems to me that AC are doing things to see where the boundary is. And in my case once I got up my courage to draw the boundary with my AC, then there has been no more disrespect. Not to say issues won't pop up, but I will not tolerate any more of their bad manners or disregard. I know now that my life without them in it could still be a good life.
This is a hard road right now, but it gets easier. Keep up your good work on knowing who you are and that you deserve respect, be it from the XH, your DS or people in general. Keep posting!
Thanks, Everyone. It's been really helpful as I slowly got to this point with DS, hearing over and over the message that our kids are sometimes going to be angry with us, and the universe will not come crashing down around us forever as a result. We'll hurt, we'll be sad, but we won't cease to exist or to matter. Our kids' feelings don't define us eternally as human beings, and they aren't the sole report card of our time here on earth. I'm sure he will have some more explosions in the weeks between now and his move-out date, and that he will test my boundaries. But, as y'all pointed out, eventually he may get his act together and have a different perspective on this.
Ah dear elise. You are a wonderful mother. I think this is the kindest thing you can do for yourself and for him.
Hugs and love.
P.S. Congrats on not having to talk to the ex again!
Quote from: Sassy on September 12, 2011, 05:34:46 AM
I think this is the kindest thing you can do for yourself and for him.
P.S. Congrats on not having to talk to the ex again!
I agree you have done the best thing possible for everybody. We need to keep our own self respect. It's all we have. It's our means of survival. Hang in there and look forward to a great future for you and your DS. :)
From age of 7 when my gf passed, my df & his 5 db's were raised by gm. Gf was her 3rd dh, another had passed & one she ran off. Gm was known for being tough, yet df absolutely adored her. They all did. Years & years after her passing, I framed a photo of her & gave to df as a gift. It left a lasting impression, as df was a man who rarely cried, but openly sobbed at seeing dm's photo. It might be a rocky road for a time, but you're helping ds become a man, & he will be forever grateful to you for it, Elsieshaye.
Elsie, you are modeling excellent values to your DS. He will find his own way, perhaps with some ups and downs along the path, but he'll never forget how you honored and cared for yourself. He will also remember your firm but loving boundary setting. These are lessons he'll use later. Good for you; thinking of you as you and DS go through this most important life transition.
Way to go Elsie! Can I get a Woot Woot for Elsie?? WOOT WOOT!
You taught him a valuable lesson Elsie. You set boundaries that he was to respect and honor and when he didn't, there were consequences. A great Mother lesson. I'm so proud of you!
Elsie, thank you for sharing this. At some point in the near future, I'm going to have to let SS know that he can never come back here. DD is welcome, but only by herself. SS has screamed at me for three hours straight, punched a hole in DD's apartment, and never cleaned up his trash and beer bottles, and I always felt I had to walk on eggshells to keep him from blowing up. No more. It's good you set those boundaries now - they will keep pushing until we can't take any more, and the sooner we put an end to the abuse, the better. You deserve respect. It's great that he is leaving on good terms - some day he will understand that his behavior left you no choice.
DS came to me with a concrete action plan, and asked for an extension to January first. I told him that I would have to decide that based on whether he kept to his action plan and was more cooperative and respectful. So far, he has packed up all his junk that had taken over the living room, and he has been more respectful about telling me how late he planned to be out.
He also has not had anyone in the house, gotten rid of the, um, smoking equipment, and has not brought any alcohol in the house. It's been about a week now of improved behavior. If he can sustain this until the end of the month, I'll consider letting him stay until January 1st, but will also need to see some movement in terms of getting a job and completing some other tasks he needs to do in order to move on. He is still going to be taken off the lease at the end of this month, regardless, and the goal this month is to get all of his belongings boxed up and contained.
The biggest difference for me, though, is that I consider him a temporary houseguest in MY home, not a resident in OUR home. And, I am visualizing daily what it will be like to have MY home to myself when he leaves, and slowly making the changes that bring me closer to that vision. This weekend, I got rid of a piece of furniture, getting me one step closer to the living room I want. There are some signs of impatience with the fact that I am -not- going back to how things were and have been much more assertive in telling him what I need, and he still tries to negotiate, but the aggression is much, much less and he now takes "no" for an answer.
I am not quite sure yet exactly what steps I will take if/when he backslides between now and Jan 1st, or if Jan 1st rolls around and he tells he wants another extension. I'm actively working on this in therapy, and my "homework" this week is to write out a plan that addresses my actions if he stops being compliant. I'll keep y'all posted with how this goes, partly also as a way to keep myself accountable and aware.
Quote from: elsieshaye on September 19, 2011, 08:17:51 AM
I am not quite sure yet exactly what steps I will take if/when he backslides between now and Jan 1st
How about putting him on a month-to month agreement? If you haven't already, don't tell him he can stay till January, just tell him he can stay for however many weeks you want him there and then you'll reconsider.
Yesterday, I was putting away some clothes for DS, and discovered the "smoking apparatus" that I had asked him to get out of the house had returned. I threw it away. His response was to wait until I had left and throw away something my mother had left me, to retaliate. I didn't discover that it was missing until this morning, and at that point I asked him to leave and not return. What finally did it for me was the idea that, if he stayed and I dared to maintain my boundaries, I'd have to figure out what I was willing to lose, each and every time. I truly can't live like that. He will be staying with a friend, and will make arrangements with me to pick up the bulk of his things later. I got my keys back, and have already contacted the management office about changing the locks. The balcony door is locked too, but I don't put it past him to break the door while I'm gone if he feels entitled to come back and get something. (He's climbed up to the balcony before to come in, late one night when I had locked the front door and he came home later, drunk.)
His behavior when he left was very condescending and belittling. Lots of comments about how cowardly and stupid I was, plus attempts to push buttons about how I had done the same thing to his father and to my father - rejected them "when things became a little bit difficult." He suggested that a more appropriate response would have been to keep taking the abuse, but "shift my perceptions" about it so that it didn't bother me. Funny, but his father told me almost exactly the same thing once. That the only reason his behavior was a problem for me is that I chose to make it a problem.
I'm very sad, both at things having to get to this point, and at the idea that DS might be as much of an N as his father. I recognize that a lot of what he said was an effort to feel in control of the situation, but it was so much like abuser-speak that it actually just reinforced my conviction that I can't live like that.
You might try adding some razor wire around the balcony, so he can't get in. (Joke) But maybe you could find something that would deter him. Hugs going out.
Elsie, so sorry to hear that it's come to this. I know you love your DS, but you're right - you cannot live this way. I have a feeling based on what I've observed in other families that in a couple of years he'll be done rebelling and will need your guidance again. By that time you'll have firm boundaries set which he will know and respect. All is not lost; you're taking care of yourself now so you can deal with whatever the future brings. You are a very good mother! All the things he said are coming from his need to protect his habit right now; they may feel personal but they have nothing to do with you. But you already knew that.
I'm so sorry Elsie but at the same time, very proud of you. If he had been sincerely sorry about breaking the rule, he would not have resorted to belittling, pettiness, hurtfulness and trying to place the blame on you. He broke the rules...he made that decision and now he must live with the consequences. None of that is on you...it's on him.
I know it hurts and you are disappointed, but you did the right thing.
Oh, Elise, I feel for you.
He was asking you to kick him out. You did the right thing but I know it feels awful.
You did the right thing.
I'm sorry Elsie, I know you're shaking inside right now. I remember these feelings. When my DS moved back in as an adult after military, it was a disaster, nothing had changed since adolescence except that his repertoire of verbal abuse was broader and better honed to reduce me to nothing. I don't think I would have been able to order him to leave, I wasn't strong enough and I was no match for him. He just left one day with that dark cloud. Its hard. Times passes and the wound heals. Keep your shield up, however, because its very easy for the 'mother thoughts' to steal in and accuse you of shutting out your flesh and blood. You did the loving act.
I've very proud of you Elsie and this isn't a bad thing, its the only way your ds is going to become a responsible man capable of raising his own family and being a success in the world. He's very young, and it may change for the better in a dramatic way. I have an acquaintance who came in to my business yesterday and tearfully confessed to me that her ds had dropped out of college and moved back in, and was corrupting her younger son with his drug use. They won't take any action, because they are high on the social ladder and afraid of colleagues or friends finding out.
Elsie you do not deserve to be treated poorly by anyone. What a good person you are! I know because you have helped me so much, been so compassionate and wise. It's so much easier when it is someone else isn't it?
You did the right thing for you and for him. I am sorry you are having to go through this.
Quote from: elsieshaye on October 09, 2011, 10:44:56 AM
What finally did it for me was the idea that, if he stayed and I dared to maintain my boundaries, I'd have to figure out what I was willing to lose... but I don't put it past him to break the door ... Lots of comments about how cowardly and stupid I was...to keep taking the abuse... so that it didn't bother me. I'm very sad,
Thank you so much for sharing that you have reached your bottom. Sounds scary to be threatened and have something you care about stolen in revenge. A drunkard's dream to have someone to dump on who keeps taking it. It's the craziness of addiction that makes it all make sense to your son. You do have good boundaries now and have proved that you will keep them - you sound stronger and are acting stronger. That's what it will take. You feel sad, understandably, and can still act with courage. I wanted to add since I have been in your shoes that the remarks from your son sadly were more about him than you. I'd offer him the 1-800 AA number and ask him to give them a call and get help cuz you love him. Also, I would suggest that you get yourself to an Al-Anon meeting and get a sponsor too, if that suits you. It helped me anyways, so I am sending you courage, peace and love
Elise: VERY proud of you! This is not something you have done or not done to your son...it is how your DS is choosing to live his life right now. And it is never ok for someone to abuse us, never, never, never. But I know firsthand that our children learn how to model aggressive behavior and use it against us until we draw the line. It's a hard place to be, but I know that life gets better...hang in there.
You are showing your DS a new way to treat you and others. That is a very valuable lesson for him. So sorry that it hurts so bad to go through this for you. Sending healing out to you, and strength. Keep posting!!
Thanks, Everyone. I'm a little calmer now. Spent a couple of hours dismantling his room, packing all his stuff, and taking posters down. Mainly as a message to myself that this is my place now, and I can do with it what I please. I also rearranged furniture in the rest of the apartment, to suit me.
DS came by, because apparently he can't find his phone. I spoke to him through the chain in the door, left him standing in the hallway with the closed door while I looked for the phone and (after letting him know I didn't find it), toldhim I wouldn't be answering the door to him again if he didn't call first. He's resourceful enough to ask someone if he can use their phone, so I know he'll be able to reach me if he needs to. He's done it before. If he can't find the phone, I am not planning on replacing it for him.
Interestingly, when I was cleaning out his desk, I found some "stuff." Which is now sleeping with the fishes (very mellow fishes). It just reinforces that I made the right decision, and that I wasn't being too harsh or suspicious.
lol (fishes)
Hey, I just noticed you've lost 21 lbs! Congrats!
Hi Elsie :
You gave him a chance and he blew it big time .
I bet he feels like the biggest heel now , stick to your guns , enjoy YOUR space .
You done good elsie -- cooooool fishes 8).
@Doe - Thanks! I'll probably be up a couple of pounds when I weigh myself tomorrow, but that's just how it goes, I guess. Stress eating, yay. :P
@LL - I suspect he's still riding the wave of righteous indignation at my awfulness. :) I'm sprawled out in the living room watching MY shows, doing my nails, and enjoying the total peace. (And the change in the atmosphere is amazing. The cat actually fell totally asleep, twitching paws and all. Lovely...)
@Smiles - Thanks. :)
Ok, I just got a great mental image of you doing all that and the cat falling asleep. Good for you for not letting him in and for not replacing the phone. Somehow, I'm thinking that was just an excuse of his to get back in...maybe because he was going after the stuff? You did so good.
Apparently he didn't lose the phone, so I'm going to keep it on for a while. It's leverage at least, and allows him to contact friends he might be able to stay with, so I'm willing to do that much.
He came by yesterday morning very early to ask for money. First I got a text at 5 am, then repeated phone calls, which I didn't answer, and then he showed up at the door. I unfortunately just sort of hid in my bedroom for an hour, unsure of what to do. I finally texted him back that I wouldn't be able to give him any money, and he started redoubling his efforts to get me to open the door. Eventually I went to the door and asked him to leave. When he wouldn't, I called the police. Apparently, he heard me do that, because he left before they arrived only a few minutes later, and I haven't heard from him since (although I did see him hanging out at the coffee shop with friends, so I know he's not as isolated or without means as he claims).
Right now, I'm just feeling sad and a bit adrift. I keep having recurring worries about other family yelling at me about doing this (even though he's not willing to turn to them either, and in both cases the family members would have tossed him out on his ear or had him arrested even sooner, and wouldn't have put up with much of the stuff that I did). Fundamentally, I feel responsible, even though I know that's not 100% true. I feel like I must have been a terrible mother to raise a child who's making choices like this. Even commercials are hard to watch, if they have kids in them. (I know I'm wallowing a bit - still down with the sinus infection and I have been stuck at home with my own company too long.)
Thanks for listening. I"m going to eat something and take a shower, and by then my attitude may have improved a bit.
Quote from: elsieshaye on October 13, 2011, 07:57:21 AM
I keep having recurring worries about other family yelling at me about doing this (even though he's not willing to turn to them either, and in both cases the family members would have tossed him out on his ear or had him arrested even sooner, and wouldn't have put up with much of the stuff that I did).
Hey Elsie -
Why don't you call them first and give them a heads up that he might be contacting them. I think they'll support your decision and maybe come up with some suggestions that are specific to him.
I know this is rough, but you'll get though this. Right now your son is looming large so everything looks bleak but eventually he move out of your line of sight and you can get on with your life.
(((Elsiehayes))) I think Doe has a good suggestion, you need support right now too.
Doe and Pam,
I'll consider it, but unfortunately, neither of them would be a support as much as they would be a vortex of panic and chaos. One of them is DS's father, and not only would DS not be receptive to his father intervening at this point, but 1) I have told the ex that he is not to ever contact me again or I'd press charges for harassment and 2) he would push this all onto me, claim it's my fault, and thus DS's responsibility for his own actions is yet again sidestepped. Honestly, I just can't cope with him on top of everything else. DS's Aunt is almost as bad. She'd go into very-sad, handwringing, "are you sure there isn't something we can't do for him - we can't just leave him out in the cold!" mode. And, DS actively dislikes her too. (He has the phone numbers for both his father and his aunt, and lots of other family and friends - he is by no means bereft of other support should he choose to ask for it.)
I am at a stage right now where I feel guilty about wanting this thing with DS to move out of my line of sight, while at the same time looking forward to that with every atom. Right now, I'm holding on to how lovely and peaceful things are in the apartment right now, and focusing on getting better from my sinus infection. I refuse to let DS's choices crush me.
Elsie
You protected the peace in your house. He knows you want it. It's not too much to ask. Showing up at 5 AM asking for money. I don't like that he wanted to be let in after the answer was no. Not leaving was intimidating. At best, he was hoping to find what's with the fishies. I'd also look into those little door and window contact alarms, they're very cheap and easy to put on. Two magnets that make a very loud siren noise when contact breaks.
It's not your fault he's like his father. Despite counseling, your love and care, healthy boundaries, he is still like his father. Whether it's genetics or modeling or neither or a combination; it's not your fault.
Sassy, I have those alarms on every door and window, installed the day after DS moved out. I do sleep a lot better knowing they're there.
"I am at a stage right now where I feel guilty about wanting this thing with DS to move out of my line of sight, while at the same time looking forward to that with every atom."
Maybe you need to make a quick decision as to which person you want to be - his victim or your own person. If you don't decide for yourself, he'll make the decision for you.
QuoteI keep having recurring worries about other family yelling at me about doing this
QuoteI have told the ex that he is not to ever contact me again or I'd press charges for harassment
One thing I've noticed about surviving past the end of an abusive relationship, whether with parents or a long time partner or even a toxic boss, is how their voices carry.
Long after being away from them, can still hear their blame and disapproval of our actions. The shame, fear, doubt, and worry they worked so hard for years to instill, echoes whenever we start to doubt ourselves.
That you only threw out the smoking equipment, and not DS, when you first found it, was you being flexible. It was specifically part of the deal and he agreed to do it. But when it came time for him to actually agree to not keeping some twenty dollar thingamajibit in the house, he didn't want to. He was bummed when he found it missing. He could have kept it to himself or even complained to you. Instead he threw out something sentimental and irreplacable. That's frightening.
He's an addict. This is scary, and it's sad. I am so sorry. I am also so grateful whenever I see how you are doing what it takes to protect yourself. These are not easy decisions, but in my opinion they are the right ones. You can love your son without giving him cash at 5 am.
Well Elsie...I know it's tough right now but girl....I'm still so very, very proud of you! You continue to stick to your guns and let him know it's not ok. You have nothing to feel guilty about as these are the consequences to the choices he made. He knew what the consenques were before he made the choices. That is totally on him.
Don't deal with the Ex or Aunt then if you can't count on them for support. If he goes to them and tells wild tales, then so be it. They will learn soon enough after dealing with him.
Take care of that sinus infection and get better! You got this!
If DS had thrown out some of your takeout food leftovers, it could possibly pass as his warped sense of justice. (Even though we know he never should have had the stuff of his in your house to begin with, for you to have to throw out yourself to have his deal honored). That he destroyed something so personal, the retaliation, like not leaving in the early morning, seemed meant to intimidate you into submission.
Some people, when they want to get their way, will say or do anything to try to get it. They will insult you and berate your character as an (out of bounds) way to convince you that you're wrong, so you give them what they want of yours. People who do this, seem genuinely surprised later to find out what they said or did had effects on the other person and the relationship. They felt so right, so determined in their mission. What tactics they use seemed unimportant, in the name of being right.
Oh, dear dear Elsie, I hurt so much for you when I read your posts again, I loved you having that happy night painting your nails and enjoying a little peace and quiet. But mothers don't sail a placid sea, and at times you will have to lash yourself to the helm to weather some 'nor easterners!', but in time I am confident you'll look back and know you did the right thing. You really had no other choice, Elsie. Your son's only chance is to learn to be responsible for himself, you granted his requests for time, he agreed to your terms, then he flagrantly violated them. I'm sorry, but at that time he wrote his own ticket. I wish I could have given you a hug on that morning, Elsie, I know it was painful.
I remember many years ago, my DS lived with me one year after the divorce and flip flopping, and then he got fed up with the rules and went back to his father. He was 15, and I felt there had been a death in that empty room, it was so sad. I was sure he'd just go under in that environment, drop out of school, etc. He didn't. He graduated and went on to military, then to university. Your DS is very young, don't fast forward the future in your mind. A long time ago my pastor said to me, "Ruth, you won't be the one to save your son." I can only now see what he meant.
What you said about 'the family blaming you for what you did', this is exactly what tortured me so much during the past decade. I think it was really the voice inside my own head, I had no confidence in myself, and I hated myself. I lived my life as a spectator. It took me a lot of years to move into my own skin and become ok with making difficult decisions the best I knew how, and not give a rip what the rest of the family thought about it. You make the best call you can and then you have to turn it over. Have some confidence right now in the values and wisdom you planted in your ds for so many years. Your actions really put the ball in your court. He's no longer in control, and that can be very frightening. You did the right thing, Elsie.
Al-Anon will give you the support you need to gain your sanity, lose your guilt and gather your wits for round 2 with your DS. He is not going to give up without a fight. You can put a No Trespassing rule on him, and then call the police if he breaks that. It is not a good thing to have on your record. Do you want to die (figuratively speaking) or do you want to show him you cannot put up with this chaos in your life? Your choice - tough love, baby. I been there, I done that, I survived, and son grew up. You are a strong lady. take courage
Thinking of you, Elsie. It's time for you to take extra special care of yourself; your poor body is run down from all this emotional stuff, I'll bet. What is good for your DS is also good for you - he needs to be out and on his own, and you need your home to be a peaceful refuge.
I'm back at work today, and will respond individually later, but just wanted to thank everyone for their love and support. It's helped immeasurably, and I'm taking it all to heart.
We love you Elsie and we are behind you 100%
Sometimes you just have to laugh, because it's less likely to result in a trip to the ER than punching a wall will:
So, DS calls me while I'm at a work meeting. I ignore until I'm done, then checked the message. Superficially-polite-but-really-entitled-and-snotty message about needing his glasses/contacts and deodorant. I had packed all that stuff up for him anticipating such a call, so called him back and arranged to have him come over at around 7 to pick it up.
I plan on just handing it to him through the barely open door and asking him when he anticipates that he'll be able to have someone pick up the rest of his stuff. (He wants a friend to store it for him.) I'm ok with storing some of his things for him, like the dresser, desk and books, for up to 6 months, but want my dining room back fairly soon. There's no room down in our building's storage units in the basement.
There are Al-Anon meetings on Mondays near my house, and I have therapy on Saturday mornings. I definitely will use both to make sure I don't cave in, and that I can make consistent decisions about how to handle things as they come up.
Great news, Elsieshayes. You sound a lot better today too.
Quote from: pam1 on October 14, 2011, 12:44:46 PM
You sound a lot better today too.
Antibiotics and sleep - Best. Inventions. Ever!
Thumbs up, Elsie :)
I packed up his glasses, contacts and deodorant in a bag and hung it on the front door (which I double locked). That's all that was in the bag - no sympathy money, no food, only the specific things that he'd asked for. Then I took myself out to dinner. Just got home and the bag was gone. I did call him to let him know where the bag was and that I was willing to store his stuff for 3 months (down from the 6 I was thinking about earlier), but he then had to figure out something to do with it or it would be gone. Lots of angry comments in a fairly cold, somewhat menacing tone. He claimed to have forgotten that he was going to talk to his friend about storing the stuff. Actually, I believe him when he says he forgot - it just reinforces my belief that he was high when I asked him to leave. He's very angry, and I admit to being a bit scared of him. This is uncharted territory, and I'm not sure what his responses will be. I'm also not sure how much of my own fear reaction is genuine intuition about what's in front of me, and how much of it is programmed responses to verbally aggressive male. Looking forward to therapy tomorrow.
Dear Elsie ......my heart goes out to you , having to face this trauma on a daily basis with your own DS ! Can you arrange to have someone with you when you know hes coming ? Not that he would harm you but just to boost your confidence and make you feel safe . Take care .
My thoughts are with you Elsie. I'm so sorry that you have to experience this. It is grave and worrying. I do admire you for your strength. It must feel really awful at the moment. You are talking about 'uncharted territory' and this is scary. Your DS is not himself either. But that is not an excuse for his behaviour. I think Ruth's pastor's remark about: You won't be the one to save your son is very true.
Enjoy the little things in life at the moment to gather strength for what lies ahead.
I have problems keeping to a diet and I'm full of admiration for your weight loss as well. Good on you!
I often wonder when DS treat us in such a way that they have a very low estimate of women in general. They feel a right to look down on the other gender and treat us badly.
Try and have a good weekend, keep your spirits and your sense of humor. :) ;)
Elsie, your ds isn't cooked yet. : ) He's immature & irresponsible - not unusual for an 18 year old. He's fighting you because you're the path of least resistance. He persuaded you to back down before & is hoping to do it again, by whatever means necessary. It's a scary world out there! He's familiar with you. He knows where your buttons are. He knows you love him & want the best for him. But fighting you is so much easier than having to fend for himself. As has been said before, it's not about you. He wants his independence, but this isn't what he had in mind, Mom. You warned him about what would happen, so now you have to see it through. That's gonna be very tough, but I bet once he gets on his feet, he'll thank you. Hang in there Elsie...
So, he came back and rang the doorbell, asking to talk. I talked though the door, and told him (in response to his asking "why can't I stay here?"), it was because he did drugs, and lied, and was disrespectful and contemptuous. "Well, you lie too! Why do you want me to be homeless?" I asked him repeatedly to leave, and he did. The whole thing took about 5 minutes. I feel like throwing up. (Rose, thank you so much for saying "you have to see it through" - I desperately needed to hear that.)
Elsie, you're the right thing. He needs to get his necessity level up in order to change his life and you're the catalyst he needs.
Thanks, Doe. I just wish he'd focus more on the necessity and less on me.
Thinking of you, Elsie and sending strength and support your way. I know this is the hardest thing to do, dear dear Elsie. The easy thing in the short term would be to give in to him when you feel like throwing up and your knees are buckling. You are doing the hardest, best thing for him in the long run. Lean on us, we can take it.
Thank you, Pen. I really appreciate that all of you WW are here for me. It helps a great deal.
Again Elsie, I applaud you for sticking to this. He's still trying to play you. He knows good and well why he can't stay there...he is trying to play the victim. Elsie, I love your plan of giving him 3 months, but I have to ask you to think about something. It seems like he is continuously coming by or calling using the excuse "I need this....I need that." Part of your turmoil is having to deal with him on a daily basis still. Knowing when the phone rings, it may be him or a knock on the door is sending you into a panic, understandably. Do you think it would be in your best interest to make him get all his stuff now and be done with it? Kill his excuses for dropping by and calling constantly?
I'm just thinking about your mindset right now and trying to think how to eliminate some of the stress off of you. As long as his stuff is there, he will feel entitled to come by with the reasoning that he needs his things. Just want you to think about that.
I'm still very proud of you. I know this is very hard but you are doing what's right.
Pooh, I understand what you mean. My only real option for that is to tell him that he has a week to make arrangements orall his stuff will be out by the dumpster next Saturday. That's only a step I'm willing to take if he asks me for something again, and it's kind of the nuclear option, so I'm holding it in reserve. What I was planning on doing the next time he contacts me is to tell him that I don't want to hear from him at all unless it's to make arrangements to move all his stuff. No conversation, no explanations, no pleas.
Great idea Elsie. I think with him right now, it's all or nothing. Something has to shake him up and make him want to change.
Does he have a job, Elsie? Since you said you'd give him 3 months, how about renting a storage room for that amount of time? That way he'll take you seriously & know he's got 3 months to get his act together. He'll have access to his stuff, & just maybe in that span of time, he'll have an entirely different perspective. And Elsie, it might even be long enough for his heart to grow fonder of Mom. Take him out for a meal now & then, then you'll know he isn't going hungry. :) They call it tough love for good reason... ((hugs))
I'm in the middle of a text exchange w/DS. He wanted to meet at a cafe to talk, because he doesn't understand what he did wrong. I responded that I'd already explained it was about the alcohol, drugs and pervasive disrespect. He apologized, and I told him that words didn't mean anything without positive action behind them. I suggested 3 places he could go for help, but told him that he burned the bridge of being able to stay with me.
No response yet. I predict he'll show up outside the door again, at which point I'm calling the cops. Maybe they can steer him towards the shelter or some other place. I'm a little worried about his state of mind, but I mostly feel that he thinks that if he throws the right words at this, he can fix it. Because that's worked before, so many times.
Rose, he doesn't have a job, although in one of his texts he told me he's been applying to two jobs a day all week. I'm considering the storage room rental, but am hesitating because of the cost (including truck rental, b/c I don't own a car). I also can't lift the furniture myself. The real sticking point for me was not having him contact me all the time for stuff, so if he keeps his distance for a bit, I am less bothered by storing the stuff in my apartment. I am not going to take him out for a meal for a good long time - it's a slippery slope, and what's really important right now I think is to cut that string of me being the one he expects to meet all of his needs for him.
I also don't think 3 months is long enough for real perspective change on his part. He spent a year away in a group home, and the positive effects of that didn't last more than 6 months before all his old behaviors came back in force. As hard and scary as it is, I really feel that I need to be entirely out of the equation for a good long while so that he can get on his own two feet. I don't think it'll "take" otherwise, because he tends to do and say whatever he needs to in order to get out of the momentary crisis, and then backslide as soon as he feels it's safe to do so.
I get what you're saying... Having been away for a year prior, I can see where 3 months probably won't change much. Raising dc isn't for the faint of heart~ I'm so sorry, Elsie.
I want to chime in, feeling a little more compassionate today. I don't think you should call the cops unless he is getting violent. I think he could benefit from being able to talk to you, just not at your home. He sounds like he desperately needs someone to be a beacon of light in all this confusion. You don't need to give him any money or a place to stay, but I have a feeling he might start listening to you at some point once the drugs get out of his system (drugs that he can't afford at this point.) You can both get stronger.
I've thought of you so often this w/e Elsie, but my family has been in crisis here so I haven't been online. Rose had such a good line elsie, she said he isn't cooked, he's very young and he's testing the limits. You will find the balance between tenderness and empathy, and strength and detachment. it is very hard, I've felt your same emotions, the terror of what could happen and how will I be able to handle it, and the voices that start in trying to make you second guess yourself, and the voice of your DS who knows the buttons to push and is remorseless to push away and milk you dry if he can. But this is just the survival mechanism in troubled kids his age. I believe if I were you I'd write myself a script and have it handy every time he calls or shows up, and keep repeating over and over, reaffirming your love for him, which is a love strong enough to force him to extricate himself from a lifestyle that will destroy him. Repeat like a robot to him why he is gone, the rules he violated and the lies he told, all his choice. You kept your end, he bailed. You need people on the ground to help you, and him also, I hope you have a good al anon group near you. Is it possible he could have to drug screen, and one dirty screen put him back on the street? I'm just thinking of how very young he is, and the risk of where he could go seeking shelter.
Quote from: elsieshaye on October 09, 2011, 10:44:56 AM
His behavior when he left was very condescending and belittling. Lots of comments about how cowardly and stupid I was, plus attempts to push buttons about how I had done the same thing to his father and to my father - rejected them "when things became a little bit difficult." He suggested that a more appropriate response would have been to keep taking the abuse, but "shift my perceptions" about it so that it didn't bother me. Funny, but his father told me almost exactly the same thing once. That the only reason his behavior was a problem for me is that I chose to make it a problem.
I wanted to go back and quote this out again. This is why you are doing the right thing. Until he seeks help with his addiction and problems, he is going to use every tactic he knows to try and get you to do what he wants. This isn't an immature man, this is a man with an addiction problem that doesn't think he has one.
I wouldn't pay for anything else either Elsie. And as painful as I know it is for you, I think you are right that you need totally out of the equation at this point until he seeks help.
Ruth and Doe,
The key to DS getting a grip on his life is realizing that depending on me to rescue and fix is no longer an option. Ruth, he can't stay with me anymore. He'd be cooperative with the first urine test, but not the second, and so it goes. We've been down this road before, and the minute he starts feeling more secure, he becomes defiant and aggressive again. Yes, he's not "cooked" yet, but he's also not as helpless as all that. This is a kid who organized and led a shoplifting ring when he was 15. He's pretty independent and resourceful, but assumes a certain level of comfort and ease, and only tries if he has to.
I'm going to keep in touch with him, but I'm not going to be more active in helping him until he's made some progress on his own.
Ruth, I'm sorry your family is in crisis. My thoughts are with you.
E.
Thanks, Pooh.
what you're doing Elsie , is very commendable .
We are not in your shoes and don't know what you have been through over the years .
I can imagine how hard it is to keep refusing him .
He sounds as if he can stand on his own two feet , you have been used enough .
It's now up to him to prove he can change for the better .
good Luck to you E..x
I am here to learn, and I appreciate all the candor and honesty and patience, you are all teaching me so much. I am the first to admit that chronological age isn't indicative of emotional maturity or level of personal responsibility and accountability. I have confidence in you Elsie!! in how well you know your DS and regardless of whether or not he's 12 or 20, you have that gut knowledge of what he needs at this given point in his life. I had a lot of suffering years because I looked back on my children's upbringing and compared my parenting ways with other parents of very docile, nonconfrontative children and berating myself continually. My children were very very mature and street smart from an early age, and they ate my lunch. I have a real problem with believing the best of everybody because I live my life from the standpoint of continually gauging my actions toward other people, and I have huge empathy. This doesn't always make for good parenting. Keep going forward Elsie. Thank you again Pooh for good judgement and great communication skills.
Hi E-
I didn't mean that you should rescue/fix him, just not have him arrested unless he's violent. I think you could continue to talk to him without providing things for him. It might be good for you to help you realize that you are the stronger of the two.
Doe, thanks. In my area, they wouldn't arrest him. The police here see a lot of their role in working with domestic situations as being defusers and facilitators. They'd come talk to him, escort him off the property, and try to keep him calm. If, and only if, he got violent, would they arrest him. However, he's not a fan of the police, for obvious reasons, so the simple fact of them being called, let alone showing up, would help him back down. He gets into this obsessive do-loop, where he becomes insistent and very stubborn and rant-y. Part of my reluctance in talking to him is how quickly he escalates, even when he's not high, and how pushy he becomes. It can go from calm and productive to crazypants in the span of a couple of minutes, if he is not in the right frame of mind to listen rather than push. Based on past experience with him, I'd rather call the police early, before he goes into orbit, rather than have them try to deal with him when he's already angry. It's one thing to meet him somewhere else to talk, but quite another if he shows up at my door suddenly. Just by doing that, he's showing me that he's not willing to respect boundaries (particularly since he knows the building will get a tresspassing order against him if he keeps just showing up) and that anger has trumped judgement. It's only downhill from there, usually.
oh, I see. Here, if the police gets a domestic violence call, someone is arrested. But then here, if you take someone's hand and say "Please don't go" or take someone's cell phone away from them, that is entrapment.
It's amazing to me how significant jurisdictional differences can be. And very little of it is stuff you can know without actually having experienced it. I'm scared to move out of the area now, lol. Too much to learn!
I think it is different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction Doe. Here, they will do what Elsie said too, as long as there hasn't been any physical contact. Physical contact...yep...someone is giving their fingerprints. Now once an apartment complex, store or such has specifically told the person not to come back (ban) with the Officer as a witness, then next time...they will go to jail. But that's for businesses. Individuals will be advised to go get an order of protection so that the Officer can arrest them if there is a next time.
Quote from: Pooh on October 17, 2011, 05:54:02 AM
This isn't an immature man, this is a man with an addiction problem that doesn't think he has one.
I think Pooh's got it right. Granted, he's only 18, but he's got bigger issues that need to be dealt with. Alanon, etc. have experience that many of us don't. I hope they can guide you so that ds comes out on top. You're a strong person, Elsie, & because you love ds, you'll muster the strength to do what's necessary. You know him better than anyone; follow your instincts...
Elsie: You need to keep being brave. It is impossible to negotiate with someone who is under the influence of drugs. This volatile behavior of his points to a dangerous situation. Once you weaken you will be back to square 1 and so will your son. It is not about parenting or not parenting, or being a mom or not, it's about your safety.
It sounds like you have been on quite a merry-go-round. My heart goes out to you in love for all that you have come through, and your son too. Once you establish a boundary that he knows you mean, things will change. IMO the storage thing would set you back to that co-dependent relationship again. He obviously can do fine on his own and it's just that he can't do drugs AND work and he knows it. This might be an important crossroad for him. I am one to never give up hope, but I know that I have been an enabler in loving too much and when I finally drew the line things are beginning to fall into a respectful place with my DD and DS.
"I love him but I will not tolerate any of this behavior any more, period." Just keep saying that to yourself. Sending strength and love to you. And, as an aside, do you have a domestic shelter for women near you? They are wonderful to help if you don't feel safe, and they have great people on their phones that you can visit with, night and day.
Dear Elsie
So sorry you have all these problems with ds. We have loved and cared for them and is heartbreaking to see our children destroying their lives. But we can only do what we can only do. The rest lies on our children's determination. Hope he finally gets it. You are doing just what you have too to help him out.....let him figure the rest. My thoughts are with you. You are a strong and determined wise lady...having trouble with not so wise ds lol.
Love you Elsie
@Begonia - Thanks. I'm, by nature, an enabler too, and it's only in the last couple of years that I've understood better how that plays out in my life. DS has been a good teacher in that regard. I will check around to see if there is a domestic violence hotline that I can just hang on to the number for, in case "Penitent DS" gets replaced by "Scary DS" again. I'd love to think that the humbleness he showed Sunday is real and permanent, but I know better than to think that kind of quick change is possible.
@Nana - Thank you. :)
So, I get an email last night that he's been living in his father's town 300 miles away since Tuesday morning. He has other friends there, so I asked him who he was with, and he said his father. I'm really glad he's safe, but I'm pretty sure his father will focus on how the whole thing is my fault and will enjoy his role as "rescuer" of our son. All of DS's life, the ex has blamed everyone else for both his own and DS's behaviors. DS has always been angry with me for not "sticking up for him" more, and demanding that he have consequences for his actions. (I stood in court more than once and told the judge that, since he had been threatening DS repeatedly with juvenile detention if he didn't stop committing probation violations, we'd better follow through at some point or stop saying it. I was scared my son would have worse problems if he didn't get consequences. DS and his father both accused me of not loving DS, and DS has told me in the past that, even though he acknowledges that his behaviors were wrong, he wanted me to be more like his father and "back him no matter what.") The emails are superficially polite but fairly cutting. I think I am just going to have to accept that DS and I aren't going to have a relationship for quite a while. On the up side, he's going to be picking up his belongings sometime in the next month, and I can walk down the street in my own neighborhood without worrying about aggressive confrontations. Still sucks, and I'm very sad, although I'm glad he's physically safe and hope this helps him get straightened out.
They sound like quite a pair!
I'm glad that he found safe haven far away from you.
Elsie, I know how you feel darling. Your history is very similar to mine. When my DS when back to live with his father (copy and paste same as yours) it was the insult added to injury just as you describe. For a time, it will be this way Elsie. But the world will turn, and this will not be a smooth ride. Your DS will gradually come to himself, like the prodigal son when he is only too happy to eat with the pigs, because 'no one gave him anything', and he will remember you. And you will not look the same in his mature eyes. He will then see you through the eyes of love and gratitude. Until that time comes, you have to wait and keep sailing on.
I have been surprised to receive TWO decent little emailsl from my estranged DS in the past month, one saying he 'heard I was sick and hoped I was feeling better', and one saying 'thanx! (would someone pick me up off the floor please) for the money you sent and a few more friendly words. This is all new, but its only happened since my detachment. I do believe there's hope for relationship for all of us, at some point in time, but maybe not on our terms, but when is life ever on our terms???
I have been reading this thread, and everyone has had such great things to say. Elsie you have done the right thing. I just want to let you know about one future that is possible. My eldest daughter (od) had significant drug and alcohol problems on and off in high school and in her early twenties. She was rude and I sometimes worried that she would not survive. In fact, the judge and everyone was angry with me becasue I took her out of high school to enroll her at a jr. college because the high school was full of drugs. Taht is where she was doing them! I was afraid she might hit me, and the things she said were awful. She lied not only to me but to anyone that would listen.
When she started getting better in her mid twenties (on her own because I had asked her to leave and would not let her back years before), she still blamed me for all her woes: "You were too strict!" She is now 30, and although there are rough moments beause she can be very self-centered, she is much much improved and has built a life for herself. She even calls me, sometimes frequently, for advise or just to hear my voice.
*but* I had to draw a line in the sand and keep drawing that line. I had to protect myself and in so doing, I believe, it helped her grow up. I too thought that she was a sociopath or something; she was so cruel and seemed to have no scruples (sex, drugs, stealing). However, as it turns out, she does have a moral compass. She has done an almost 360 - takes good care of herself, into cooking and yoga, and was trained in massage therapy. So....hang in there, and take care of yourself. He is the "pilot" of his own ship now. I hope he does better in the future because I know it hurts to watch him slowly killing himself. I think you have to respect his path and convey that respect to him. I even said that to my daughter, "I have decided to respect the path you have chosen. It is not the one I would have chosen for you, but it is clear you are in charge of your life." something like that. (that will shock him when he realizes it's totally in his ball park and you are prepared to accept him and his choices - just not in your house!). Once you get the hang of it, it is a great place to be - you can still love him but you learn to love yourself too.
Much love to you Elsie - been missing you and hope you are well.
Well good! Let your Ex "rescue him" as it sounds like as DS was growing up, Ex wasn't helping him by enabling him and not letting there be consequenses. So let Ex deal with what he has created. When he finds out that enabling DS now is just going to make it worse, he can blame whoever he wants but will have to face the mirror.
Ha! Enjoy the peace and quiet Elsie, you have earned it. I wouldn't ask any more questions if DS emails you, just respond politely and talk about anything but his issues. He needs to deal.
Good grief - just got a call from DS to make arrangements to pick up his stuff. I told him I'd get back to him. Apparently, they're getting a relative to pay for the gas and moving costs and, because this relative doesn't trust them any further than she could throw them, she requires a confirmation email from me. Once he gets his stuff, though, the upside is that I don't have to deal with either of them for a while.
Hang in there Elsie. Makes you wonder that if this relative has enough doubts that she wants a confirmation email, why she would even do this for them. I give up trying to understand people.
Because she's kind-hearted, and thinks that she's helping. She has a habit of, instead of just saying no (because it makes her feel like a bad person), she agrees to help but puts all kinds of conditions on it.
(((elsieshayes))) You've been in my thoughts lately. You're strong and did the right thing which would be too hard for many to do.
Pam, Pooh, Jane, Ruth, Doe, Nana, and everyone else who has commented - thank you from the bottom of my heart. It really helps to be heard. (I've been in self-absorption mode, and realized I never did say thank you for the encouragement and advice.)
Nah...you're in survival mode ;D
You are welome. It's what we do for each other and why we all can get along so well in here, even when we don't agree.
Elsie, I think you're an amazing mom. This is where it shows, when the going gets really tough.
Elsie, you give your thanks in your support in other threads. :)
I agree Elsie. This is such hard work you are doing, and it is inspiring and encouraging to others who are going through it too. It is clear that other women are reading these posts who do not post themselves.
:-*