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Problem Solving => Daughter in Laws and/or Son in Laws => Topic started by: mybetterself on October 23, 2010, 11:32:55 AM

Title: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: mybetterself on October 23, 2010, 11:32:55 AM
Hello to so many wise women I have 'met' on these pages.  I have been reading your posts faithfully for the past month, and I admire your courage, your solutions, and your advice.  I have been inspired to register, with a registration name that is not reflective of who I am, but of whom I wish to become.

I am just-another-MIL with DIL problems.  Like so many of you, I have effectively lost my son.  I am not welcome in his house, due to the wishes of DIL.  I have gone through the try-to-buy-her-acceptance with unwanted gifts, have been rebuffed for years on this, and have finally come out the other side --- realizing it ain't gonna happen.  The realization came to me by reading all your wise and painful posts.  I now know that I need to give up that special mother-son relationship that many of us used to have, that we still yearn for.  I now know that I need to move on with my life, without DS.

I want to share with you my current plan.  Right now, it seems like a good idea.  But with so many experienced MILs on this forum, maybe you will tell me otherwise.  I want to appeal to my DS's better self.  I raised a gentle, caring son.  But he is now married to a selfish, immature, child.  I am quite sure I know why.  She is small, cute, and she has so many tons of money that my son's eyes are glazed over.

I do a lot of time-wasting on the internet.  A site I found this morning gave me the inspiration for a couple's Christmas gift.  The link to the charity video that inspired me is http://fora.tv//2009/11/06/Scott_Harrison_Water_As_Luxury (http://fora.tv//2009/11/06/Scott_Harrison_Water_As_Luxury) for charity:water.  I am planning to copy this video to a CD, add a gift card (i.e. a charity gift in my DS and DIL name) and send that as a Christmas gift.  It is my hope that I can inspire DS (and perhaps DIL? Nah, not possible.) to open his heart to something bigger than his current situation.

I would be interested in your comments, especially those of you who have sent couple's gifts in the past.  Good idea or not?  Am I just kidding myself?  What couple's gifts have you given that were successes?  What do you plan to give this year?

Bless you all.
Hoping to become,
mybetterself

Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 23, 2010, 11:51:15 AM
Welcome MBS -  You are going to fit right in here, I can tell. I don't have much to offer regarding couples gifts. I sometimes help out during the year and I have to beg to be able to to do that. So, I say..."OK, so it's your Christmas present! " and then I'm stuck!

Long ago when my kids were young and we relocated, I asked the family to stop buying gifts and to pool our resources as a family charity donation...(I suggested a specific fund for needy children.) The result was a unanimous and resounding disinterest.

Maybe others here have had more positive experiences. Sending love...
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Pen on October 23, 2010, 12:46:41 PM
MBS, I'm glad you're here. DH & I were just now talking about a couples gift for DS & DIL. Some of the DILs here suggested it as a way to include a DIL who wasn't keen on receiving personal gifts from the ILs. I'm not sure which way we'll go yet, but we might give gift certs for tix to events they both enjoy.

We've given charity gifts in the past to friends and family but only as an addition to a gift basket or other item, for example a card showing a gift of honeybees tied to a jar of local, organic honey. I find people really don't know what to do with just the charity gift. (If you saw the autism fundraiser "Night of Too Many Stars" the comedian Ricky Gervais did a hilarious routine about receiving a gift of a goat for an African family after buying an expensive coffee maker for a friend.)

It's the holiday season! Away we go!
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: 1Glitterati on October 23, 2010, 02:13:48 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on October 23, 2010, 11:51:15 AM
Welcome MBS -  You are going to fit right in here, I can tell. I don't have much to offer regarding couples gifts. I sometimes help out during the year and I have to beg to be able to to do that. So, I say..."OK, so it's your Christmas present! " and then I'm stuck!

Long ago when my kids were young and we relocated, I asked the family to stop buying gifts and to pool our resources as a family charity donation...(I suggested a specific fund for needy children.) The result was a unanimous and resounding disinterest.

Maybe others here have had more positive experiences. Sending love...

I've given donations in the name of dh's uncle/aunt/family before.  He doesn't like it.  I dunno why.  He just doesn't.  I finally said...fine, the times we have to be around them for Xmas, they get nothing then.  I don't like them, I resent having to spend time with them and have my day just ruined, so they get nothing.  I think that's way more honest that spending money for a crappy gift they'll likely never use, that I'm ticked about having to spend money on in the first place.  At least when I gave donations in peoples names---someone got something worthwhile and useful.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: mybetterself on October 23, 2010, 03:07:59 PM
1Glitterati,

Your response is especially interesting to me, because it is from the point of view of a DIL instead of a MIL.  You gave charity gifts and they were not appreciated.  Maybe they never are.  Maybe I need to rethink this idea.

You also said something that made me catch my breath: I don't like them, I resent having to spend time with them and have my day just ruined,    I am sure my DIL thinks exactly that about me.  So here is my question to you: Do you think a husband's relations with his family are important in any way?  From my point of view, I don't understand why my DIL doesn't think it in her best interest to allow DH a small amount of time with his family.  Seems to me DIL should never want to be in a position where husband is asked to choose between his family and herself.  For myself, I think that if I had hated my DH's family, nonetheless I would have stuffed it for the few days a year we saw them.  Stuffed it for my husband's sake, because his relations with his family are probably as important to him as mine are to me.  Not a good plan?  Do you ever worry that your actions may backfire someday?

Best wishes,
MBS


 
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: 1Glitterati on October 23, 2010, 03:55:00 PM
Quote from: mybetterself on October 23, 2010, 03:07:59 PM
1Glitterati,

Your response is especially interesting to me, because it is from the point of view of a DIL instead of a MIL.  You gave charity gifts and they were not appreciated.  Maybe they never are.  Maybe I need to rethink this idea.

You also said something that made me catch my breath: I don't like them, I resent having to spend time with them and have my day just ruined,    I am sure my DIL thinks exactly that about me.  So here is my question to you: Do you think a husband's relations with his family are important in any way?  With this particular uncle and aunt...NO.  No, I don't.  DH has never enjoyed being around them, and was forced to do so every Christmas.  A Christmas which uncle was allowed to rule over because he was the favored son.  We only went to Christmas at his grandmothers house because he felt it was an obligation.  After I came on the scene...I went for a few years, too.  After a while...I said I'm not going every year.  I refused to have my Xmas Day suck and suck hard.  From my point of view, I don't understand why my DIL doesn't think it in her best interest to allow DH a small amount of time with his family.  Seems to me DIL should never want to be in a position where husband is asked to choose between his family and herself.  For myself, I think that if I had hated my DH's family, nonetheless I would have stuffed it for the few days a year we saw them.  Depends on how they are and what they do.  Some people are merely annoying, while others are toxic.  Stuffed it for my husband's sake, because his relations with his family are probably as important to him as mine are to me.  Not a good plan?  Do you ever worry that your actions may backfire someday?  Nope.  No I don't.  As far as Xmas at grandmothers, grandmother has died.

DH sees his parents when he wants to.  They see the kids.  I see them every once in a while--although there was a period of several years I didn't even speak to them, much less see them.  I have stuffed things in the past in order to make things easier on my husband.  I'm sure I'll do it again in the future.  Sometimes though, it isn't worth stuffing it.  Not even for his feelings.

The thing I don't think my dh's parents have ever stopped to consider...is he DOESN'T LIKE SPENDING THE HOLIDAYS WITH THEM.  It's no fun.   Zero.   Zilch.  Nada.  We sit in a room and just look at each other.  It's so not fun that it's painful.  His parents also think he has all these happy memories of childhood holidays.  WRONG.  He resents like hell being drug all over the place and never, ever having any fun on any holiday because it was always, always, always about what other people wanted.  Sure...they thought they were doing the right thing by driving all over creation and back and never having having holidays in their own home.  Now...they suddenly think because their parents are dead and the kids are grown that the grown kids will fall all over themselves to have Xmas and other holidays in their home now.  That it is their turn.  Wrong.  If they wanted particular traditions...they should have made them.  Now is our time with our children.  Yes...we do thinks with the inlaws, but it's on our terms.  They had their turn.  It's ours now.  When the kids are grown and out of my house, it'll be their turn.

Best wishes,
MBS



Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 23, 2010, 04:33:58 PM
I can get that, G. There sure can be different perceptions of "Wasn't it lov-er-ly?"

I love lights twinkling all over the place, inside and out...but my kids have no tree, no tangible gifts and no decorations. They give each other big gifts for the house, etc.

Last year I was trying to continue my care giving from my wheelchair and Christmas was just a blur. Not this year, nope! Out come the lighted snowman for the porch and all the rest of it...even though I'm now alone. On go the Christmas CDs, too.  ;D
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: 1Glitterati on October 23, 2010, 04:39:05 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on October 23, 2010, 04:33:58 PM
I can get that, G. There sure can be different perceptions of "Wasn't it lov-er-ly?"

I love lights twinkling all over the place, inside and out...but my kids have no tree, no tangible gifts and no decorations. They give each other big gifts for the house, etc.

Last year I was trying to continue my care giving from my wheelchair and Christmas was just a blur. Not this year, nope! Out come the lighted snowman for the porch and all the rest of it...even though I'm now alone. On go the Christmas CDs, too.  ;D

I like twinkling lights, too.  Dh honestly isn't much for them BUT he puts them up cause the kids go nuts over them.  He makes a real effort at Xmas...and it's hard for him.  He's never looked at Xmas as a fun holiday, but rather one of "man...I have to do this again" with a big sigh.  So...I really appreciate him trying for the kids.  He's determined that his kids won't feel the way he does.

As for the Xmas music...my mom has just given up any pretense and will listen to it year round.  I finally just programmed in We Wish You A Merry Xmas as her ringtone on my phone.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 23, 2010, 04:57:49 PM
Oh, that is SO funny!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: kathleen on October 23, 2010, 05:24:46 PM
Dear MBS,

I was glad to read your post.  It is so well-written.

One issue that comes up repeatedly on this list is the issue of expectations.  This was something I had to identify in myself and come to terms with. 

If you can give this gift to your son and DIL and not want even an acknowledgement in return, then you can do exactly as you like with any gift you send.  If you can truly say, "I like this gift I am sending, it is meaningful to me, and I don't care what they think," then go ahead.  But I hope you will stop thinking in terms of gifts that were "successes."  In a case of a cutoff, gifts are rarely that.  Well, in my case, if I gave my DIL the keys to Buckingham Palace, it might constitute, in her eyes, a success.  Otherwise, forget it.  I watched her gift expectations escalate over the years.  I read the emails asking for money.  I can no longer meet her hopes.

(Your gifts cannot be message-making, for they will most likely be misinterpreted in this situation.)

I, however, from my side, cannot do something like that, give a gift with no hopes or expectations.  If I give a gift, it is in the hope of a relationship.  I have finally figured out that that is my wish, not the actual thank-you notes or the delight of watching someone enjoy something we have given, although those are wonderful, but the promise of an ongoing and deepening relationship around these rituals.  Rightly or wrongly, we connect in our society around birthdays and Christmases and anniversaries, weddings and Hanukah and christenings and showers and bar mitzvahs and religious holidays of every faith and description.  Gifts always are expected.  Adult children who don't acknowledge this, and prefer to use gift-giving as strategy, are shooting insults like arrows into the air, in my opinion and sad experiences.

The way I was raised, I do expect an acknowledgement of a gift. It was called courtesy, and it was to be extended to everyone, no matter how small the gesture or the gift.  I can't get over that early training.  I think it was right.  My husband and I gave our son and DIL a large down payment for a home, and were never invited to stay there.  I was roundly taken to the woodshed by some members on this list for thinking that we should have been invited to the home we enabled them to buy, even as dinner guests.  I was to have no expectations; a gift is not a true gift if you have expectations of some return; etc., etc., etc.  I don't believe this is realistic, or courteous, or kind.  And I especially don't believe it is courteous or kind to accept large expensive gifts of any ilk and shoot the giver down.  This is my opinion and no one else's.

The care and thought you are putting into this charitable gift indicates to me that you are hoping for some connection of some kind through this gift.
That, to me, is only normal.  But it may backfire, and at your stage in the relationships, in my opinion, you may be safer in acknowledging this.  You may create the wrong connection vis a vis:  a) no response at all (always feels intentionally insulting to me,) b) a hostile response as they may not like the charity you select, c) criticism for selecting a charity at all, instead of giving them a yacht.  If you are able to accept all the possibilities, then go ahead and send the gift.  You can then feel you did what you wished to do. That, at least, is worth something.

I got several backfired bullets to the heart before I declared bankruptcy in the gift-giving business to my son, GD and DIL.

There are many, many children and their spouses whose stories are told on this list who will find fault with absolutely anything their in-laws do.  If you do not send a Christmas gift, you may be criticized for not so doing.  If you send this charitable gift, they may find it disgusting and/or they may not agree with having a charitable donation in their names.  And so it goes.  The title for all of this is "You Can't Win."

I have a very close, very trusted, highly educated friend of decades since my youth who watched my departed son grow up.  When this whole cutoff thing began, she, a professional therapist, advised me to continue to send gifts to my granddaughter, no matter what.  I was to keep the lines open as much as possible, as, she assumed, someday my GD would see, through our gifts (attempts to continue a relationship with her) that we loved her, we were good people, not the monsters our son and DIL were no doubt portraying us as.  And we did so.  Gifts, gifts, gifts.  And then a thing was done that was so awful, so gross, and so cruelly wounding, so pointedly aimed at ridding themselves of us, that my friend finally said, "That's it.  These people don't want you in their lives, and their script about you is already being memorized by your granddaughter.  Stay away and send nothing more; it is all a waste." 

I have been far happier since that decision. My wonderful, loving friend was right.  It was a kind of closure, although I disliked pat words like that.  It was the resolution that would have been right years earlier.  You cannot force people to love or even care about you.  Bald truth.

This is not a situation where try, try again guarantees success. 

The gift thing is fraught with implications on all sides.  Before my DIL married my son, she sent a beautiful, hand-written thank you note on gorgeous stationery for the smallest gift from us, even for dinners at our house. I was mightily---fantastically---impressed with her beautiful manners and courtesy and thoughtfulness.  As soon as she nailed him, those thank-you notes not only stopped, but she began using the pointed lack of them as a weapon.  At the large birthday parties for our GD, mostly consisting of their friends and the massive number of her extended family members, for instance, she would stand there with her pen and note pad, writing down everything everyone else gave but us.  Then, everyone but us got a thank-you note.

At one point, I asked my son about a very expensive little outfit I had given my granddaughter.  Did she wear it?  Does she like it?  I asked hopefully, my eyes bright, I am sure, with wishful thinking.  I was so hoping she liked it and especially that her mother liked it.   This was his cold response:  "She has so many clothes and so many outfits that still have the tags on that she probably hasn't even worn it yet."   

Yes, I have stopped giving these people gifts.  Any amount I might have spent on them, I now spend on my husband, my other sons, or me.  Ingrates are no longer on my Christmas list.  We give gifts to give other people pleasure, and to get pleasure from their enjoyment.  We do not give gifts to receive rejection and pain in return.

My DIL often taught me the lessons of passive aggressive behavior.  I thank her for it today.  Now, instead of feeling I have to "do something" about the "situation," I can choose to do nothing.  Now, instead of trying to be "pro-active" with gifts or anything else, I just sit tight.  Maybe someday there will be a relationship.  Maybe not, but the ball's in their court.  No more gifts without acknowledgements.  No more large sums of money handed over for down payments.  Passive  aggressive is positive in many ways. I am thrifty and it is thrifty.  It saves on emotion, pain, worry, fear, grief, and dollars. 

At Christmas, I give the money to a Protestant social services organization in Iowa, money that otherwise would have gone to my son & his family for gifts.  This is an organization that saved the lives of children during the terrible Iowa floods of years past, not to mention innumerable other incredible feats of social conscience so dear to my heart.  I am not recommending this.  I just know what they do and it fits my concept of giving at Christmas.  I don't give in my son's name; I give in my name and my husband's name.  This money is truly well-spent.

And each year, I get long letters of appreciation from Iowa. I get booklets showing specific situations in which specific children and families have been saved from dire circumstances as part of a community of givers like us. I feel connected to these children in a way I don't and probably never will to my GD. And one year, my husband and I were invited to an honorary dinner because we had given them a certain sum of money.  A dinner!  I'd like to be able to say that once, just once, my son and DIL invited us to anything without her hundreds of family members present.

It's called gratitude.  And I need to see it, or, I go away.  The bottom line is, I just don't like ungrateful people. I just don't want to be associated with them. I just don't want to be around them; they depress me; I don't want to spend my precious time with them.  I don't need booklets to be sent as expressions of gratitude from my son.  But I do need to feel that I am included in a meaningful way in the lives of people I love and give to in so many ways, mostly non-monetarily, and if I am not, I will now take my gifts elsewhere now.  And then, instead of anger and hurt, I can feel the satisfaction that a little girl in rural Iowa has a new dress to wear, a little girl whose closets aren't filled with new clothes with the tags still on them, so many price tags that her mother cannot possibly figure it all out.

All the best with this one; it's tough.

Kathleen
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: mybetterself on October 23, 2010, 06:25:14 PM
Dear Glitter,

Your post makes me feel sad.  Not because of what you said, but because of the memories it invokes.  Let me tell that story.

I adored my DH's parents.  Especially adored his father.  Also loved his mother.  But I did notice that there was one DIL (not me) who was the eternal target of MIL's anger/intolerance.  One year, the situation changed.  My sister-in-law was no longer the intolerable DIL; suddenly it was me!  My defense was to beg-off visits with his family.  DH took our children to visit his mother, and I stayed home - with the excuse that I had to work, or whatever other reason I could conceivably dig up.  I thought I was playing this pretty well.

But now it comes back to haunt me.  Recently DH started discussing the fact that I didn't like his mother.  My beg-offs were interpreted as not liking her.  (There was some truth there.  I might characterize it as being the new target, but in truth, I was avoiding her.)  I am not the type to defend myself verbally, so I remain silent and accept the criticism.

But now I really wish that I had 'stuffed it', and accompanied my DH and children on visits his mother.  I feel terribly guilty for letting my DH know about my uncomfortable situation.  If only --- if only I could back and do it again, I would visit MIL with everyone else, and make the best of the situation.  If only, if only --- I now wish that I had made a good effort to play nicely in an uncomfortable situation.  I really wish my husband were not able to accuse me of not liking his mother.  This is not because he holds it against me now, it is only because I really, really wish I could have been a better person.  For DH.  I love him so much, and he deserves better than I gave.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: mybetterself on October 23, 2010, 06:52:55 PM
Dear Kathleen,

I admire your wish counsel.  You speak of expectations.  After my first post, I realized that I was trying to elicit a particular response from my son.  With my 'message-making', I was clearly interested in another method of control.  This makes me feel very ashamed, because I do want to become a better self.

I am really interested in your discussion about gift-giving and expectations.  Like you, I was raised to be gracious when given a gift, to appreciate the thoughtfulness of the giver, and to send a thank you. 

I have never thought about what I expect from gift-giving.  Just the idea that here is something to explore is inspiring.  I will need time to think about this and discover what my expectations are.  My first thoughts are that I want to give gifts because I dearly love my son, and I want him to be delighted by something from me.  Also, I don't want to leave out my DIL because I don't want to remind anyone of the conflict between me/DH and DIL.  But I am looking forward to going deeper into the meaning of gifting: what does it hold for me?

In the past, in giving gifts when I am not sure they will be appreciated, I have taken the 'local' approach.  I go to the local farmers market, or to local craft stores, and buy things from local craftsmen.  I buy things I love, things I would be very happy to have, things I am proud to give.  In that way, I spend my money in my own community.  If the gift turns out to be hated because of the giver, (as with DIL), no sweat.  I have done something good anyway.

Thank you for giving me so much to think about regarding gifting. 

Hoping to become,
mbs

 
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: 1Glitterati on October 23, 2010, 07:04:59 PM
Quote from: mybetterself on October 23, 2010, 06:25:14 PM
Dear Glitter,

Your post makes me feel sad.  Not because of what you said, but because of the memories it invokes.  Let me tell that story.  I am sorry that it evokes sad memories for you. 

I adored my DH's parents.  Especially adored his father, who was a clergyman in another country.  Also loved his mother.  But I did notice that there was one DIL (not me) who was the eternal target of MIL's anger/intolerance.  One year, the situation changed.  My sister-in-law was no longer the intolerable DIL; suddenly it was me!  My defense was to beg-off visits with his family.  DH took our two children to visit his mother, and I stayed home - with the excuse that I had to work, or whatever other reason I could conceivably dig up.  I thought I was playing this pretty well.

But now it comes back to haunt me.  Recently DH started discussing the fact that I didn't like his mother.  My beg-offs were interpreted as not liking her.  (There was some truth there.  I might characterize it as being the new target, but in truth, I was avoiding her.)  I am not the type to defend myself verbally, so I remain silent and accept the criticism.  I'm sorry that's where it's ended up.  In my case, I spent many years caring deeply for my inlaws, several years honestly hating them to the core for something that happened, and now we have moved to indifference.  I've made some big accommodations in seeing them recently because it does mean something to my husband.  I have been clear though---I will never love or trust his parents again.  I can't be any more up front than I already have been.  If it bothers him, then it bothers him.  I will not be abused for anyone.

But now I really wish that I had 'stuffed it', and accompanied my DH and children across the pond to visit his mother.  I feel terribly guilty for letting my DH know about my uncomfortable situation.  If only --- if only I could back and do it again, I would visit MIL with everyone else, and make the best of the situation.  If only, if only --- I now wish that I had made a good effort to play nicely in an uncomfortable situation.  I really wish my husband were not able to accuse me of not liking his mother.  Maybe this is a generational thing...but so what if you didn't like his mother?  I don't get why that's such a crime.  Honestly...it sounds like you were still socially polite and never griped at him for visiting or taking the children.  Why can't that be enough.  This is not because he holds it against me now, it is only because I really, really wish I could have been a better person.  So many times, I think being the better person is code for being a doormat for other people to wipe their feet on.  And when I say that I am not saying only dils can be doormats.  Anyone can be a doormat...dil, mil, spouse, parent, etc.  For DH.  I love him so much, and he deserves better than I gave  I love my dh very much too.  Frankly...I think he and my inlaws are lucky I've gotten to the point I've gotten to..

And yes...I do realize that I will likely sound cold to many of the mils on this board.  I'm okay with that.  I'm okay with where I'm at and who I am.  I don't feel guilty for any of the choices I've made in regards to my inlaws and the relationship I had with them then or now.  I do have some regrets about how I handled things during the blowup.  I'm sorry that I didn't stand up for myself sooner and I'm sorry I wasn't more forceful in taking the problem directly to them as opposed to nearly destroying my marriage over it.  I have forgiven them in the sense of I don't carry around the huge amounts of bitterness and anger I used to have (I still have some that crops up from time to time).  I had to do it so I didn't lose myself.  They see the gk's more now, and they see their son more now.  They see me only on very special occassions.  I'm satisfied with that.  I'll never trust them again, and I'll never love them again.  I'm socially polite, wish them no harm, and tolerate them.  That's the utmost I can do.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: 1Glitterati on October 23, 2010, 07:07:05 PM
I also think I need to apologize.  I think I have hijacked your thread.  That was not my intent.

I think the family gift is a lovely thought and gesture.  I don't know that it will be perceived that way...but I think it's lovely.  Even if they hate it, even if you only do it for yourself to say that you sent a gift, there are real, live, people in need who benefit from your generosity.  THAT is a good thing, no matter the thought behind it or what they think of it.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Sadandalone59 on October 23, 2010, 07:37:00 PM
Your stories hit home with me.  I used to love the holidays.  Lots of family and no one cared what they got as gifts.  It was spending time together.  Now I dread the holidays.  If I am invited to join my DIL and her family I am treated like an outsider and don't belong there.  I always invite them here but of course they don't come.  I buy things for my granddaughter and leave receipts in box so she can return them for something else but she doesn't even do that.  They get shoved in the closet and never worn or played with.  I have even done just the gift card way and still I never know if she uses it or not.  I am not a big fan of gift cards as it seems impersonal.  I like picking out gifts but don't know if I want to put myself through that again this year.  It hurts really bad.  Why would a DIL want to alienate her husband's family?  I just don't get it.  I was raised where Christmas eve was with my Mom's family and Christmas day was with my Dad's.  It seemed to work out well although it may have been cause they lived fairly close.  There is so much stuff in that closet that I spent good money on yet they always seem to need money.  I don't get it.  I so badly want a relationship with my son and grandbaby and even her.  We used to have a good relationship before the baby came and then suddenly I was thrown aside.  I wish I knew why.  Although I have a hard time sucking it up I would just to get that relationship back with my son and grandbaby.  How sad to hear the stories of other wonderful mothers and grandmothers who are hurt and in pain too.  But at leaset I don't feel so alone anymore.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 23, 2010, 07:55:31 PM
I know this is going to sound crass but what you did makes sense to me. Most of us have tried "fake it 'til you make it" and we never did. Trying to act like we don't feel, trying to be what we aren't and attempting to become thick-skinned doesn't wear well in the long run. Regrets will come one way or the other but it wasn't you that was off.
That's my take. Sending love...
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Sheen on October 23, 2010, 08:27:35 PM
First I think the water charity is a truly unique gift and thank you for sharing. I believe I will be making a donation to it as well. As far as a gift for your son and dl , I tend to agree with other posters.  If you are doing it with the expectations that they will respond, I am not confident you will get the results you hope for.

"The way I was raised, I do expect an acknowledgement of a gift. It was called courtesy, and it was to be extended to everyone, no matter how small the gesture or the gift.  I can't get over that early training.  I think it was right.  My husband and I gave our son and DIL a large down payment for a home, and were never invited to stay there.  I was roundly taken to the woodshed by some members on this list for thinking that we should have been invited to the home we enabled them to buy, even as dinner guests.  I was to have no expectations; a gift is not a true gift if you have expectations of some return; etc., etc., etc.  I don't believe this is realistic, or courteous, or kind.  And I especially don't believe it is courteous or kind to accept large expensive gifts of any ilk and shoot the giver down.  This is my opinion and no one else's."

I like Kathleen  was also raised with those beliefs  and think that in this busy world we live in, it is important to acknowledge the nice gestures or gifts that we receive from whomever.   I do not see that a short note , email or card is so far out of the realm of just plain courteous. You might not like what you receive, but what does it actually hurt just to acknowledge the gift .  Many of our families live on opposite coasts and scattered all over the place and without an acknowledgement , we are left wondering if they actually got our gifts or did we just donate to the postal service.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: justdontunderstand on October 23, 2010, 08:48:43 PM
The gift giving dilemma will hit our household again this year too. We sent individual gifts to DIL and DS last year. DS called and thanked us for his. We never heard a peep from DIL. DS also sent us a gift and it was signed by him not both of them. So, the gift giving thing is sometimes as much of a minefield as the money lending is!

The "not so better self" of me this year is thinking I should send a nice selection of tea with a passive aggressive note, saying that it tastes great cold! ;)  Please know that I am kidding---humor is the weapon of the powerless! Sometimes I just need a good vent! Thanks for letting me have it.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 24, 2010, 06:33:30 AM
For, me all of these issues come back to what I most don't want to face at times as the answer: my family members are the way they are and the situations involving them are the way they are. My power lies in how I choose to react. I no longer educate, choreograph, direct...or even in some cases, inspire.

You would think that at age 83, I would have gotten that as a basic premise but it is still an "off the wall" concept to me.

How I was raised doesn't factor in, neither does the fact that I didn't raise them to be "like that." They are how they are and they do what they do. The beliefs and values of others including my adult children are their business. That is so difficult for me to get. I still think I should be in the picture someplace beyond being an observer and having to learn to adapt.

On the other hand I want my "kids" (grand kids and great grand kids) to be their own person and make their own way in life, following their own inclinations. I want to feel that I did my best and am done and now they are doing their best (even in selecting mates.) I also want to remain connected and involved even though I am "done." Not as easy premise.

Believe it or not, as I lean into my mid-80s, the picture is reversing. I am seeing signs that my growing family (my eldest GRANDDAUGHTER is headed for COLLEGE next year) are now beginning to think that they know what I should be doing and how I should do it. I don't see it often but it is slowly increasing and it makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck.

This dilemma seems to always be with us in one form or another.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Pen on October 24, 2010, 08:00:19 AM
"For, me all of these issues come back to what I most don't want to face at times as the answer: my family members are the way they are and the situations involving them are the way they are. My power lies in how I choose to react. I no longer educate, choreograph, direct...or even in some cases, inspire." Quote from Luise

How true. That's what makes it so difficult! There's not a lot of preparation for this. We have scripts for sitcoms or we have Norman Rockwell pictures in our heads, but until I came face to face with a DIL who is who she is, and who she is is someone who doesn't want our family in the picture, I had no idea this could happen.

"On the other hand I want my "kids" (grand kids and great grand kids) to be their own person and make their own way in life, following their own inclinations." Quote from Luise

I agree. We all (most of us) want to raise independent thinkers. We hope they will make their own choices of careers, living arrangements, who they date & marry. But if our adult children hand over the decision-making tasks to a spouse, does that mean we haven't succeeded after all? What pains me most is that it isn't DS's choice to separate from us, it's DIL's. She hasn't separated from her FOO, but she insists DS separate from his. As the Who sang, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

It wasn't until our DS stood up to DIL and her FOO and insisted on his right to see his own FOO that he exhibited truly independent thinking. We know it wasn't easy for him but we're glad to know he's not a complete push-over.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 24, 2010, 08:08:51 AM
Heaven's yes, Pen. We watch them on their path of learning and it nearly kills us sometimes. We feel responsible for their difficulties even when we know that's no logical. It's horrible. Then something happens that gives us hope and we hold our breath.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Keys Girl on October 24, 2010, 08:30:30 AM
Dear MBS, welcome to WWU.

I have the same dilemma but since my future DIL and son have refused to give me their new address when they moved recently,  It makes the gift giving issue easy, I'll send an electronic Christmas card to them and buy some turkeys etc., for some of the homeless/poor people in my area so they have something to eat this year.

The "You're Always Wrong" court is in session but Judge Judy is not presiding in my case so I've taken the words of the Rick Nelson song "Garden Party" as my new motto.

"If you can't please everyone, then you got to please yourself". 

There are lots of people in the world and I've created a family of friends who care about me and treat me with courtesy and appreciation.  My advice would be to choose a charity that is near and dear to your heart, they aren't likely to show you any appreciation for anything so I don't see the point in wasting a minute in trying.

This is not the way I expected or hoped or planned that things would work out and I'm sure you didn't expect this either but unfortunately as the Rolling Stones said "You can't always get what you want".

Good luck,
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: mybetterself on October 24, 2010, 09:21:30 AM
Keys, you make me laugh! 

Hey, what's that about DS moving and not telling you where?  Reminds me of the time, freshman year at college, when I drove up to the old homestead at Thanksgiving.  My family had moved and forgotten to tell me!  That's what comes from having too many siblings: when you go off to college, you lose your bed, all the clothes you left behind (too many sisters), and you can even lose your address.

"I learned my lesson well...  But it's all right now."

I'm laughing and doubling my contributions to the local food bank this year.

Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 24, 2010, 10:01:40 AM
I just had this sinking feeling. I moved two weeks ago! Who have I forgotten to tell? :o
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Keys Girl on October 24, 2010, 05:04:36 PM
MBS, my son and DIL have refused to tell me their address for about 6 or 7 months now, I had a housewarming gift for them, but they didn't answer that email or a couple of others.......and didn't return the phone call I made.  Obviously they don't wish to keep in touch and that was the beginning of the "Cold War", "Cold Shoulder" or as I eventually became to call it the "Cold Facts", but I did eventually come to enjoy the peace and quiet and remember that I had a life of my own no matter what my son decided to do with his and whoever he married and what she thought of me.

With some recent health problems and the death of some close friends recently who are very close to my age, I've decided on a new motto for my life which I saw in a store recently on a small sign near the entrance which read:

"Be good or be gone".   That's the standard for the people in my life.  I may just get it embroidered on some guest towels for my bathroom!

It's going to be a tough Christmas for many, many people this year.  The "Great Recession" has left many people literally scrambling through dumpsters for something to eat.  It's a good time to lose yourself in helping others who need your help and aren't playing the "I refused to be pleased game".

Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: mybetterself on October 24, 2010, 05:52:54 PM
Quote from: Keys Girl on October 24, 2010, 05:04:36 PM
but I did eventually come to enjoy the peace and quiet and remember that I had a life of my own no matter what my son decided to do with his and whoever he married and what she thought of me.

It's going to be a tough Christmas for many, many people this year.  The "Great Recession" has left many people literally scrambling through dumpsters for something to eat.  It's a good time to lose yourself in helping others who need your help and aren't playing the "I refused to be pleased game".

Peace and quiet.  I seem to need it more and more every day.  I have accumulated 3 or 4 CD's that bring me that peace.  I play them when I need to get rid of all the confusion of TV/DIL/DH/DS, etc.

Recently, when my DH was out of town, I called our TV service provider and canceled the service.  Then DH returned and reinstalled the service.  I find that I need to hide out in another room when he sits for dinner, with his glass of wine, and the TV going full blast.  He doesn't do that every day, but it is happening right now.

And then there is the most important thing you talked about.  Dumpsters, unemployment and poverty.  I worry that we haven't yet reached the bottom of the unemployment statistics.  I am acutely aware that the official stats are about 1/2 of the real unemployment problem.  Things aren't pleasant.  I am one of the lucky ones; my paycheck has only gone down by 50%.

Blessings to everyone.  Hope we don't go through another 'Grapes of Wrath' era.
mbs
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: barelythere on October 24, 2010, 08:14:22 PM
Quote from: justdontunderstand on October 23, 2010, 08:48:43 PM
The gift giving dilemma will hit our household again this year too. We sent individual gifts to DIL and DS last year. DS called and thanked us for his. We never heard a peep from DIL. DS also sent us a gift and it was signed by him not both of them. So, the gift giving thing is sometimes as much of a minefield as the money lending is!

The "not so better self" of me this year is thinking I should send a nice selection of tea with a passive aggressive note, saying that it tastes great cold! ;)  Please know that I am kidding---humor is the weapon of the powerless! Sometimes I just need a good vent! Thanks for letting me have it.

Justdon't,
Thank you for that quote:  "humor is the weapon of the powerless"  It is so true in my case, without it I'd be "done".  It's all I have.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Keys Girl on October 25, 2010, 07:40:48 AM
Justdon't,
Thank you for that quote:  "humor is the weapon of the powerless"  It is so true in my case, without it I'd be "done".  It's all I have.
[/quote]

Barely there, You have more power than you realize unless you CHOOSE to give it away.

You have your life, your destiny and your values.

"I am the master of my fate
I am the captain of my soul".

From the poem Invictus


You are have your fate to master and your soul to captain, as we all do and as our sons, daughters and In laws do as well.  If we don't do it together and in harmony well, it's not a perfect world........but it's all we have.

Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: barelythere on October 25, 2010, 07:49:06 AM
Quote from: Keys Girl on October 25, 2010, 07:40:48 AM
Justdon't,
Thank you for that quote:  "humor is the weapon of the powerless"  It is so true in my case, without it I'd be "done".  It's all I have.

Barely there, You have more power than you realize unless you CHOOSE to give it away.

You have your life, your destiny and your values.

"I am the master of my fate
I am the captain of my soul".

From the poem Invictus


You are have your fate to master and your soul to captain, as we all do and as our sons, daughters and In laws do as well.  If we don't do it together and in harmony well, it's not a perfect world........but it's all we have.
[/quote]

KeysGirl,
I know I do, thank you for the reminder.... :)  I got my feelings hurt this weekend.  We were all together for an event but missing one DIL who decided not to come.

Our son who is her husband said that her parents were the Matriarchs and Patriarchs (according to them) and that when they said to be at an event, they had to be there in spite of anything else going on in their lives.  If we ever said that, we would be called intollerent, not obeying boundaries, etc.  We kept our big fat mouths shut again. 

We are not the same as the DILs parents and wouldn't want to be.   It is starting to be a problem for one son but he just goes along anyway.  What a raw deal we have in my opinion when we are the mothers and fathers of sons. We love them just as much as M&D's of daughters love them.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: pam1 on October 25, 2010, 07:55:21 AM
I love the charity gift giving idea!  I would love it if someone gave it to me.  But in my experience, others don't love it so much. 

Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Pooh on October 25, 2010, 08:10:04 AM
I like the charity thing too but I don't see it flying with my DIL.  I have seen numerous things on my DILs FB page where she has been doing some small crafts.  So I think I will get her a gift card to "Hobby Lobby".  They have not only craft stuff but picture frames and decorations so she can use it many ways.

If she doesn't like it.....well, that's her problem, not mine.  I refuse to worry about this year. 
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: erma on October 25, 2010, 11:02:32 AM
just the topic I'm looking for, since we had a nice dinner last nite and we talked about Christmas this year, (my ds gave us 1st dibbs on a holiday of our choice  :)) i don't know what to do. my dil in the past has only excepted cash. not gift cards, not checks, not presents, just cash. she has misinterpreted every gift we have given her except cash. (but only after telling us how much cash she received from her FOO, which is more than we make in a month!) so, do we go on with the cash only theme? so as not to rock the boat? or do we not compromise ourselves and give gifts from the heart? well, i think ill give cash, and a lil tiny gift she may except and not misinterpret. hmmmmmm.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 25, 2010, 12:07:35 PM
I would send her a nice card! ;)
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: justus on October 25, 2010, 01:57:45 PM
The whole gift thing has evolved over the years for me. Once, when I was upset about someone using a gift in a way I had not intended, a wise friend told me that I had GIVEN a GIFT to this person. Once I gave it, I had no right or reason to believe I had any control over what they did with it. Since it was a gift, I also had no reason or right to expect them to even be thankful. I shouldn't give a gift expecting to get anything back, not even a thank you. It isn't a truly a gift if I expect some reward for my efforts.

I came by this expectation honest. My own family doesn't really know how to give a gift. There are always strings attached well beyond a simple thank you. I started focusing on truly giving gifts to people and my feelings were hurt a lot less often and I hurt fewer feelings along the way. I also treated every gift I received the same way. If there were strings, I simply ignored them. You can imagine how my family dealt with that.

I know that society rules dictate that we write thank you notes, but I wasn't even aware of this until I got married and believe me, my MIL judged me unfairly because of my ignorance. My family and the people we knew only did that for special occasions like weddings or graduations. Never had we received or sent one for a birthday or holiday gift. A simple verbal thank you was sufficient. I think it is a mistake to hold people to standards they may not even know exist, and, yes, this includes demanding certain sorts of gifts. My niece demands certain sorts of gifts because she has been trained from childhood that is how she gets what she wants. I shudder to think how her new ILs are dealing with this piece of work. I always gave her a nice present and ignored her bad behavior. She could demand all she wanted and behave as badly as she wanted, all it did was make her look bad and eventually she figured that out.

The only problem I have with the charity gift of the OP is the agenda that you are giving along with it. This isn't really a gift because there are strings attached. Your son should not be obligated to "open his mind" because of this gift. I think you should rethink your own motives and give something that has no strings or expectations attached. That would truly be a gift.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: miss_priss on October 25, 2010, 02:25:41 PM
QuoteThe only problem I have with the charity gift of the OP is the agenda that you are giving along with it. This isn't really a gift because there are strings attached. Your son should not be obligated to "open his mind" because of this gift. I think you should rethink your own motives and give something that has no strings or expectations attached. That would truly be a gift.

Good observation Justus....how often have we seen on here "I gave my DIL/DS/whoever _________, and didn't get so much as a Thank you."  While I agree that it's rude to not say Thank You, this verbiage implies that the sender was expecting some kind of response in return for their generous gift, which isn't what gift-giving is all about.  When you give a gift with some kind of agenda behind it, it's more like gift lending

I am, however, guilty of not saying "thank you" for a gift, once that I can remember.  It was when my MIL sent a check for my birthday and I held on to it to personally give it back to her and tell her that the best gift she could give me would be to be civil to me for the sake of her son.  I really didn't want her tangible gifts when she'd made it clear that her gifts were just for appearances, not because she genuinely cared for me.  Of course, true to form, she told everyone how ungrateful and spoiled I was.       
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 25, 2010, 02:35:42 PM
I have a problem sometimes letting go of a gift and not putting expectations on it. I want o see a piece of clothing worn, etc. I have to keep telling myself that it is theirs and what they do to or with it is their business not mine. It's like it's an extension of me or something and anything that happens after I "give" it is about me. How dumb is that?
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Eva on October 25, 2010, 04:25:16 PM
for this Christmas I will send to DS and DIL a card
and in it ,
it will be an invitation for a dinner for their whole family
to a restaurant of their choice,
date and time of their choice
to leave line of communication open

and I will pray for a peace between us
if they respond it will be nice
if they ignore the invitation
I will donate $$(amount for missed dinner) to our hospital

Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 25, 2010, 04:31:26 PM
Good plan and I hope they take the high road! Sending love...
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Sheen on October 25, 2010, 09:28:32 PM
I guess I am one of those people that do expect an acknowledgment that a gift is received. For years I sent gifts to my son and his family and for years even if I spoke to them, they never once even acknowledged receiving them. I did expect a response partially because since the gifts were sent thru the post, it would be nice to know if they actually received them.  My daughters and I tried very hard to find nice things that they would all like and to receive not even a response was a bit daunting for all of us.  It might not be what gift giving is about but I do believe in treating others like you wish to be treated and not acknowledging a gift is just rude.  What does it take to say, hey we received your gifts or thanks for thinking of us.?  I honestly don't think those expectations are so far out of the realm of civil upbringing regardless of the way one is brought up.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: LaurieS on October 25, 2010, 09:52:47 PM

Quote

Good observation Justus....how often have we seen on here "I gave my DIL/DS/whoever _________, and didn't get so much as a Thank you."  While I agree that it's rude to not say Thank You, this verbiage implies that the sender was expecting some kind of response in return for their generous gift, which isn't what gift-giving is all about.  When you give a gift with some kind of agenda behind it, it's more like gift lending

I agree that the sender was expecting some kind of response and the correct response is a simple thank you.  Why would anyone jump to the conclusion that the gift giver has some hidden ulterior motive.  I'd like to think that most people/adults can give a gift our of love and nothing more.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Pen on October 25, 2010, 10:56:35 PM
A "thank you" is always a good thing, even when the gifts are not. I've thanked my former MIL, my DIL, my stepmother and my dad for some god-awful gifts that were truly passive/aggressive. I chose to be a classy broad instead of engaging in a fight I could not come out of with dignity. It kind of stops them in their tracks, which is a perk  ;)

And, as Laurie said, how do we know the giver has an ulterior motive? Better to err on the side of gratitude and love, IMHO.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Nana on October 25, 2010, 11:46:45 PM
I am also the kind of person that like to be acknowledge for a gift.  Probably it is because I love presents and am always very grateful for them, no matter if its a small or big.  But I probably enjoy more giving than receiving.  I love to feel that I have given something that the receiver will enjoy.   I know that my dil love earings (gold) and exactly the kind she likes, so every Christmas I give he earrings.  She makes a Wow face, and then stands up and comes to me and gives me a kiss.  Oh I feel so rewarded.  I dont mind getting a gift back....but acknowledgement....yes. 

I dont really feel that expecting thankfulness (gratitude) is not truly giving. 

It is only the way I feel. 

Good we can all share our perspective.

Love

Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: justus on October 26, 2010, 07:23:43 AM
I agree that thanking someone for a gift is just polite, and I have sent gifts through the post and hate it when the receiver doesn't let me know if they get it. Even so, I don't let the receiver's lack of spoken appreciation ruin my enjoyment of giving the the gift. I think this is another choice we can make. If I don't hear anything, I usually ask and they will then apologize for not calling, etc.... People have lives and things like this do slip their minds. I chose to think the best of them.

If you are giving a gift just to hear the thank you, it isn't really a gift. A true gift has no strings attached, not even the expectation of a thank you. I can think of many religious examples of this sort of giving and other secular examples of people giving food, money and even their lives for someone they have never met. I have found over the years that if I let go of the expectation of a thank you, that the gift giving experience is that much more rewarding.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: pam1 on October 26, 2010, 07:37:41 AM
In my family we don't write thank you notes.  I think it is a type of thinking that goes back to our home country from what my grandmother has taught us.  It can be taken wrongly at times to receive a thank you note, it is kind of like implying that the giver was put out, took a hit on their $$ or some other negative attribute and that is why they are being thanked for it.  A gift is just supposed to be a gift with nothing needed to go back to the giver.

So, I do know that our family culture is different than mainstream and it can be a minefield to navigate.  I want to honor my own family and being frank, I think our way is better ;)  lol.  I think the whole thank you note thing can be a token to be looked at as someone who didn't do their duty, isn't grateful etc.  When, our way, there is nothing to look at and point.  You give a gift IF you want to.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: LaurieS on October 26, 2010, 07:47:57 AM
I understand what you are saying Justus, and I'm not doubting you... it's a big world with every type of person.. but do you know of many who would give a gift of any type just to hear the words 'thank you'?

I do agree that if no response is forthcoming then I will politely ask if the gift was received.. I'd hate to base hurt feelings on my faith in our postal system.  You go onto say "I can think of many religious examples of this sort of giving and other secular examples of people giving food, money and even their lives for someone they have never met."  But when I give money to a charity or charitable event, I do so with expectations that the money will be used as stated.  If someone blesses a needed family with food, are we not hoping that the food is eaten and that the recipient is appreciative of a strangers generosity?

I expect a thank you, not always verbally but through actions.  My uncle had a organ transplant.. we wakes every morning and is thankful and because unlike the unlucky ones, HE CAN, he lives his life as a good caring person who is also helpful  to others.  Do we really give gift with no strings attached?  I guess I don't but we were not talking about life altering gifts we were taking about tokens of appreciation or of love.  If someone is willing to accept the gift then they should be equally willing to express gratitude and be willing to try and use the gift in the manner in which it was given.  Strings.. yes sometimes there are.. if someone feels that they can not live with the strings then by all means refuse the gift.  Just my opinion.

Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: LaurieS on October 26, 2010, 07:55:46 AM
I agree Pam.. I do not believe that a thank you note should be issued at every turn.  There are times that it's the proper thing to do...

While my kids were growing up we did "force" them to write  thank you notes to their grandparents/aunts/uncles etc for Christmas gifts.. while very young they loved writing the notes as they became teens the boys were a little put out but went along with our wishes.. I also believe that a note is mandatory when you've initiated the reason for a gift such as a graduation notice, wedding invitation, etc. But when Auntie May takes one of the kids out for a nice lunch.. a simple thank you is acceptable.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: kathleen on October 26, 2010, 08:30:52 AM
What about when a DIL asks for money?  Asks for gifts, vis a vis showers?  Is some acknowledgement for that a good thing, or, in those cases too, are we supposed to give what they want and feel nothing about no acknowledgement?  I see now that my feeling that she should acknowledge cash and gifts doesn't stem so much from the way I was raised or courtesy, as much as from the feeling I was forced to give her things.  That's not really a gift. 

I finally cut off my DIL's email over her last request for money.  I don't want to read them anymore, after many years of them.  I'm not giving her any more money for her events or causes.  I will select my own causes.  She doesn't like me and prefers I not come around, just give $$ for her events.

The causes she asked for money for generally involved charities that people were involved with at work.  Giving money to those charities would benefit her product that she was marketing.

She loves parties and always is giving them.  An invitation doesn't feel like she wanted us there, it felt like a demand for a gift.  When her baby shower came, her mother called me and said, "How much money are you going to give us to have this party?"  I politely explained that I had just purchased an expensive baby gift for the shower and that for us, this would be enough.  I remember adding again, "It's an expensive gift."

Ann Landers used to write a column of sage advice, and she was huge on thank yous for gifts and teaching children to do that.  I don't see it
as a requirement from my side for the gift, as much as an expression of good manners from the recipient.  Ann Landers repeatedly would say, "If you don't get an acknowledgement, stop sending the gifts."  My sentiments exactly, and that's what I've done.

Kathleen
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: kathleen on October 26, 2010, 09:44:49 AM
Here is an excerpt from the old Ann Landers column on thanking people for gifts, with an interesting perspective that not expecting thank yous is to encourage "boorish" behavior.  Ann was one tough cookie!

Kathleen

Dear Ann Landers: I am angry at you for telling readers not to send gifts to children who don't write thank you notes.
Last year, when my daughter was 8 years old, her "Aunt Louise" wrote to say she did not receive a thank you note for the previous birthday gift, so she would not be sending a gift that year. Louise added, "Ann Landers wrote in her column that if a person doesn't acknowledge a gift with a phone call or a written note, you shouldn't send that person any more gifts."
I was shocked by your lack of compassion, Ann, and amazed that Aunt Louise could be so harsh with her own niece — and that you encouraged it. I'll bet this is one letter you won't print. — A Mom in North Carolina

Dear N.C. Mom: I hope you didn't bet more than you can afford to lose. In my opinion, failure to express appreciation for a gift by note or a phone call is not acceptable behavior. In fact, it is inexcusable rudeness. To continue to send gifts when there is no thank you is to encourage such boorishness. Yes, I did say to "stop sending gifts to people who don't say thank you," and I meant it. However, because your daughter is only 8 years old and still in the process of learning proper etiquette, I hope her Aunt Louise will give her one more chance.

ANN LANDERS (R)

COPYRIGHT 2009 CREATORS SYNDICATE INC.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: LaurieS on October 26, 2010, 10:23:57 AM
Wow.. pretty bold of Aunt Louise to state why there would be no future gifts.  I don't think I would go that far, but we did stop sending to our nephew and niece when it became obvious that our  gifts were viewed as us meeting our obligations.  It seems like such an easy way  to show someone that you appreciate the thought.

I was asked to be a hostess of a bridal shower, there were 10 of us and silly me I  didn't realize that all I was suppose to do was to split 1/10 of the cost and clean up  afterwards.  I did this for my friend who's  daughter was getting married, a girl I didn't even really know, but I did it along with 9 other well meaning ladies. Not a single thank you card was  ever sent out.. I thought next time we should include a box of  cards to be  given to the bride-to-be
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 26, 2010, 10:32:08 AM
I, too, feel that giving a gift is one side of a two-sided process. The thank you is the rest. When I got new in-laws and never heard a word, I didn't know if sending gifts was wrong, or if the gift itself was wrong or if my ethics were wrong. I never found out. After 20 years of tapering off, I just stopped and no one seemed to notice.  :(
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: pam1 on October 26, 2010, 11:18:51 AM
Kathleen, I can't imagine someone asking me for money like that.  Mind boggling.

But then again, I wonder if it really is a cultural thing.  I know the love languages count gifts as a type of language.  Perhaps some people don't consider gifts to be as important as others?

I know that I don't and I never thought about them much.  For others, it seems to be a really big deal and they have lists of what you can buy them and where you should buy it.  Just really different outlooks.  I do agree with a simple verbal thank you though. 

I know in our culture registries/showers are frowned upon.  I imagine someone whom registries/showers were the norm would feel awkward entering our family. 
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: kathleen on October 26, 2010, 12:06:41 PM
Luise,

You're one tough cookie, too!  Maybe you should start a Luise Landers column.  You certainly give sage advice, and can do it in a few sentences.  Onward to your new career,

Kathleen

PS Don't take the "tough cookie" as anything but a compliment.  It's what I aspire to become.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 26, 2010, 12:18:38 PM
 ;D ;D ;D I have had an advice Website for over five years and have won two coveted awards...one from the Foss Foundation and the other from the Bank of America. Come on over and take a look: www.MomResponds.com

That's how this Web-forum got started. The most often asked question was, "Why Do My Son and Daughter-in-law Hate Me?" I felt we needed a different venue to address our issues with adult children and extended families; one that was more interactive. www.WiseWomenUnite.com started out as www.MotherInLawsUnite.com but so many wonderful DILs joined our forum that I renamed it a year later.

Thanks for your vote of confidence!
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Pooh on October 26, 2010, 01:11:51 PM
I totally expect a thank you for a gift.  It does not have to be written, verbal is perfectly fine.  I feel the same way about my time.  If I help someone do something, a thank you is appropriate (throw a shower, help them paint their house, etc...).  I don't find that as strings attached, just basic courtesy.  I love to do things for people and will help family and friends with most anything they need.  But if I was asked to help and then arrived and they treated me with disrespect and yelled at me the entire time, I wouldn't help them again.  That would be rude.  So to me, not saying thank you for someone doing something nice for you or giving you a gift, is also being rude.  Just how I am.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: justus on October 26, 2010, 01:41:21 PM
Just because Anne Lander thinks it is OK doesn't make it OK. DH has been sending occasional gifts to his nieces and nephews. He has only received one thank you so far. He isn't planning on not sending gifts for lack of thanks. That isn't why he is giving these gifts. He isn't sending them because it is expected of him or because he wants praise or needs warm fuzzies. Nope, he is sending them little things that he runs into that he thinks they will appreciate because he loves them and wants to show them this which is hard to do when you live 2,000 miles away. No thank you to him is no big deal. Actually, it isn't an issue at all. Frankly, as a psychologist, he can't stand Ann Landers because of the often harmful and trite advice she gave out.

I think that being thankful is a valuable thing and it is good to show your gratitude, but once again, we are all getting all worked up about what we cannot control. We can only control ourselves and how we chose to give, we cannot control how others react to receiving our gift. We can argue till the cows come home about what is proper, but the truth is not everyone is going to live up to Ann Lander's standards. We have a choice to either let it go or let it really bother us and possibly ruin relationships and cause hurt feelings. I vote for letting it go. It isn't worth the effort to get worked up over.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Pooh on October 26, 2010, 01:46:29 PM
I think Ann Landers is funny.  And like here, I take some things and leave some things she says.  And you are right, you can not control if someone thanks you or not.  But I don't let it bother me, I just move on and do things for more grateful people.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: LaurieS on October 26, 2010, 02:07:20 PM
I don't think that anyone is going to live their lives through the Ann Lander passages or Martha Stewart's decorating skills.  But it was fun to read what she had to say concerning proper etiquette.

It's safe to say that the recipient of the gifts should not be upset if the gifts were to stop coming because the person giving them does not know how they were received.  Maybe in your case Justus, the nieces made some favorable reference to the gifts in passing, that I would accept as a thank you.

My dd was constantly jokingly chastised by her college coach each time she thanked him for during a practice session.  He said that she was the only kid that ever thanked him for trying to kill her at her position.... but the way she looked at it was even tho he is paid to be a coach, he was not required to help make her a better player. It's an individual choice I guess. Showing gratitude can go a long way towards someone positive perception of you. 

You are correct in the fact that you can not control how someone will receive a gift but you are in control to decide if you want to make the offer of a gift based on past experiences with this person. 
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 26, 2010, 03:04:00 PM
For me, to ask if the gift was received was not connected with thinking it might have been lost in the mail. When they can't be delivered, they are returned to sender. For me, it was a covert way of reminding the person that they had no manners. It took me a while to realize that I was displaying bad manners myself by doing that.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: kathleen on October 26, 2010, 03:19:10 PM
Luise, that's so cool!  I am either incredibly bright or incredibly stupid (probably the latter) to suggest you start something you've already won awards for doing.  I can't wait to see you on Oprah.  Huge baskets of flowers to you on your wonderful, amazing awards.  No wonder you are so successful bringing together MIL's.  Thank you for sharing that, and I love the "momsRespond" site.  Just wish I'd had it when I was a young mom.

Ann Landers is not the Holy Grail to me. I think when we read each other's posts, we should not make assumptions such as "just because Ann Landers says something doesn't mean it's true." Of course not.  I just posted that because I thought her message about accepting "boorish behavior" was very interesting to me in terms of our discussion, and of course, she is of the 50's and times have changed.  She wouldn't have been caught dead, for example, going on Oprah in jeans, whereas plenty of advice book writers now do so.  Woe to Ann today for appearing in photos in her trademark mink stole.  But many, many famous and successful people of her day admired Ann Landers and commented in her column, not to mention the mere normal mortals who looked up to her.  She was a fixture and, I think, a good one.

I do disagree that all her advice was pat. Please understand she was dealing with very limited newspaper space. What's difficult is to get a good, thoughtful piece of advice into a few sentences; Luise accomplishes that, and it's a talent and a gift.  I know.  I've written for newspapers for decades.  I got guidance from Ann on many subjects, as I do from Luise on this list. I'm sure not all of Ann Landers' advice was good.  Psychologists also have given out bad advice, although I don't remember an instance when Ann did---perhaps you can enlighten me. 

One time when I was very very young, my dad took me to hear Ann Landers speak.  I never forgot it.  She was so serious about her work and took her role as an influence very seriously. She talked about that, and how important it was for her to stay grounded. Down to earth.  She made a deep impression on me as a young person.  From the time I was young to the time she died, I turned my newspaper first to her column every day.  The letters and problems were so interesting and often resonated personally, particularly after I got married.  When I became a newspaper columnist myself, I took her great style of ethics very much to heart.  My father spent his life in the newspaper/print business, and very much admired Ann Landers for the quality and dedication she brought to her work.

I really have to take issue---as a personal aside--- with any possible comparison of Ann Landers to Martha Stewart, a convicted criminal.  Ugh, ugh.  I can't believe a major cable channel now features yet another one of her shows.  Please no more Martha Stewart.  And I won't even apologize to her fans.  It's just my opinion, of course, but a strong one from which I won't budge.  Give me Ann any day.

So you can imagine me, Ann Landers devotee, meeting up with my DIL, who doesn't think anything of routinely asking for $$ and never acknowledging it, let alone expensive gifts.

Not a good match.

Kathleen

Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 26, 2010, 03:33:35 PM
Thanks for that! You are one interesting gal!

I read that Ann Landers was unwilling to "perpetuate" her column so that others could write under her name. She wanted it to stop when she did and that's what happened. There are other columns where many have ghost-written under a single banner.

Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: kathleen on October 26, 2010, 03:43:05 PM
You too Luise---an interesting gal!

Correct again about Ann.  She did stipulate that her column could not go on under the nom de plume of Ann Landers after her death.  So they started a spinoff called "Annie's Mailbox" or some such title.  All you have to do is read it a few times to know it is not the same.

Abigail Van Buren, "Ann Landers" sister, started a similar column, "Dear Abby."  This, interestingly enough to our forum/list, created an estrangement of decades between the sisters.  Abby's daughter, I believe her name is Pauline, continues the column today.

And of course, eventually Ann's husband "left her for another woman," which was deeply humiliating to her as an advice columnist.  She "confessed" her humiliation in a column.  Very sad, but takes nothing away from her sage advice, in my opinion. 

This is an opportunity to say "thanks again" Luise for all that you do to make our lives better.  I was so desperate when I started writing.  I can't get over how much I've improved in my outlook and in embracing my beliefs and lifelong standards.  What's right for me is not right for everyone, but
it feels good and right for me.  The fog has lifted and I know where I stand.

Kathleen
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 26, 2010, 03:55:42 PM
I too have been left for another woman. It provides a learning cliff as opposed to a learning curve. For me it was a very important part of my personal individuation. (Which I am still working on, of course.) The "other woman" has become a dear friend of mine and they are both included in our family "dos."

Yes, Abby lives on. But to me, she never had the "gift." Those that follow don't have that much to live up to IMHO.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: kathleen on October 26, 2010, 04:04:18 PM
Agreed.  Abby never approached Ann in talent. Followers, as you suggest, got fainter and fainter.

Boy, can you handle curve balls.  Are you sure you don't want to play for the Red Sox?  Yankees?  Twins?  Favorite team???  Have the ex to gatherings?  I am not in that boat but I would have to work hard to sail to shore on that one, as you already have.

Your phrases are so original and great---"learning cliff." Wonderful.  I enjoy them.  And you have an incredible shared honesty that is very heartening.

And you have a sense of humor!  And it all helps in the mix as we are still all working on ourselves, of course, trying to make sense of the unfathomable. 

Kathleen
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 26, 2010, 04:10:39 PM
This exchange is so refreshing. Really. Yesterday I got a Personal Message that both of my sites were trash and so was I.  :o All in the eye of the beholder, if that stuff about projection is true...

Sending love...
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: kathleen on October 26, 2010, 04:17:02 PM
What what what????

We must never take crazy responses to heart.

A rotten apple used to spoil an entire barrel, but fortunately, the Internet prevents that.

Kathleen
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 26, 2010, 05:11:17 PM
Yes, I love the "delete" button when that happens. :P

Aside: The "other woman" asked me at a family gathering, half (but only half) joking...if I'd like my "ex" back. I asked her if she'd like my wonderful husband of 21 years who is now in a nursing home at the age 99. She said "no" and we agreed that we'd both better finish what we started. She is miserably unhappy and I have a tough row to hoe but we are able to laugh together.
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: barelythere on October 26, 2010, 09:36:37 PM
Quote from: kathleen on October 26, 2010, 04:04:18 PM
Agreed.  Abby never approached Ann in talent. Followers, as you suggest, got fainter and fainter.

Boy, can you handle curve balls.  Are you sure you don't want to play for the Red Sox?  Yankees?  Twins?  Favorite team???  Have the ex to gatherings?  I am not in that boat but I would have to work hard to sail to shore on that one, as you already have.

Your phrases are so original and great---"learning cliff." Wonderful.  I enjoy them.  And you have an incredible shared honesty that is very heartening.

And you have a sense of humor!  And it all helps in the mix as we are still all working on ourselves, of course, trying to make sense of the unfathomable. 

Kathleen

OMG, I'm SO glad Luise has a sense of humor and can do silly.  8)
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: cremebrulee on October 27, 2010, 04:12:14 AM
QuotePen "For, me all of these issues come back to what I most don't want to face at times as the answer: my family members are the way they are and the situations involving them are the way they are. My power lies in how I choose to react. I no longer educate, choreograph, direct...or even in some cases, inspire." Quote from Luise

Yup, Luise and her many wise sayings have helped me....once in a while, I to sink into these thoughts...Pen, your post really made me think about a lot....we surly can't change anyone but our own personas

QuoteHow true. That's what makes it so difficult! There's not a lot of preparation for this. We have scripts for sitcoms or we have Norman Rockwell pictures in our heads, but until I came face to face with a DIL who is who she is, and who she is is someone who doesn't want our family in the picture, I had no idea this could happen.

To be honest, I wish that Norman Rockwell picture was mine to....but it isn't....my son and DIL, chose to move far away (due to his career) and I don't get to see them much at all...it's difficult, as our family was always together on holidays...and every holiday isn't the same without them there....however, I suppose, it's a little easier for me, b/c I've had to fend for myself my entire life....I'm used to being alone, and most of the time desire it....however, while we always enjoy lovely holidays, he's still not there, and my secret wish is that my DIL allow me to love her like I love him....maybe someday? 

Quote"On the other hand I want my "kids" (grand kids and great grand kids) to be their own person and make their own way in life, following their own inclinations." Quote from Luise

yes, we do, but we also want it all, or I do, can't speak for you....its a human desire of mine to want them to come home...and be there....(maybe I've watched way to many movies)? 

QuoteI agree. We all (most of us) want to raise independent thinkers. We hope they will make their own choices of careers, living arrangements, who they date & marry. But if our adult children hand over the decision-making tasks to a spouse, does that mean we haven't succeeded after all? What pains me most is that it isn't DS's choice to separate from us, it's DIL's. She hasn't separated from her FOO, but she insists DS separate from his. As the Who sang, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

No, she hasn't...and she probably won't...why do our son's allow this, why don't our sons say, we're going to be fair here and alternate holidays...or have one great big dinner for everyone?  It would be so much easier and lest painful for the Inlaws?  And that is upsetting....my son always chooses to learn towards his father and the woman who was cruel to him...but, that was a long time ago, and he has forgiven her, they now have a big family....and she is good to his father...although very controlling...you get used to that when you life with it long enough....however, it doesn't help the hurt...it's logical of course, but when the heart hurts logic doesn't ease the pain.  My girlfriend thinks my son feels I'm stronger then his dad....I am...however, deep inside, when I hear them call her mom, it hurts like anything.

QuoteIt wasn't until our DS stood up to DIL and her FOO and insisted on his right to see his own FOO that he exhibited truly independent thinking. We know it wasn't easy for him but we're glad to know he's not a complete push-over.

yes, it does help to know that...Pen, may I ask what happened?  How do you know this happened?  What sparked it....?  Did it change anything?

Hugs Creme
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: luise.volta on October 27, 2010, 11:24:04 AM
BT - I am probably one of the silliest people you will ever come across. I can't tell you how many times it has come to the surface when I was going down for the count...and saved my bacon. (I am even wearing about 25 pounds of that "bacon" that I really don't need!)  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: barelythere on October 27, 2010, 11:43:07 AM
Quote from: luise.volta on October 27, 2010, 11:24:04 AM
BT - I am probably one of the silliest people you will ever come across. I can't tell you how many times it has come to the surface when I was going down for the count...and saved my bacon. (I am even wearing about 25 pounds of that "bacon" that I really don't need!)  ;D ;D ;D

Well, Luise, you can count yourself as one more person my DIL would not appreciate. :)  She thinks silly people are silly.  I agree with her.  :)
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Scoop on October 27, 2010, 11:47:22 AM
I see what you did there, Barelythere!

Yes, I think silly people are silly too - and I love them for it!

Isn't it funny how the same thing can be perceived 2 ways?
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: barelythere on October 27, 2010, 12:25:22 PM
Quote from: Scoop on October 27, 2010, 11:47:22 AM
I see what you did there, Barelythere!

Yes, I think silly people are silly too - and I love them for it!

Isn't it funny how the same thing can be perceived 2 ways?

It is funny how things can be seen two different ways but this extreme non-silly is just so tiresome and so not needed it seems like to me at least.  The nuttier the better as far as I'm concerned. We're all different, though.   :P
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: Pooh on October 27, 2010, 12:27:30 PM
Well, now there is nutty and then there is nutty!   8)
Title: Re: My couple's gift this year will be ...
Post by: barelythere on October 27, 2010, 12:38:06 PM
Quote from: Pooh on October 27, 2010, 12:27:30 PM
Well, now there is nutty and then there is nutty!   8)

True (ha!!) the truly nutty are attracted to me!!  I am attracted to them like a magnet.  Oy

That's why the non-nutty are so foreign to me.  :-[