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Problem Solving => Daughter in Laws and/or Son in Laws => Topic started by: erma on November 14, 2010, 08:40:12 AM

Title: new day, new issiue
Post by: erma on November 14, 2010, 08:40:12 AM
oh what a morning!  i was invited to go shopping yesterday with ds and dil and gc. of coarse i went to be with gc and ds. as we were strolling casually down the isle of the mall, ds turns to me and blurts out, "WERE GONNA MOVE IN WITH HER PARENTS FOR A WHILE TO SAVE FOR A NEW HOUSE" !!!!!!!    :o :o :o   i was so shocked, i felt my knees buckle!!!  they have a beautiful new home they live in now, but she wants a big yard for gc. nothing wrong with that part, but she is willing to walk away from this home, because of the housing market, forgo their credit, because "everybody doing it" just for a bigger yard!!!!  they make a nice 6 figure income, they can absolutely afford to stay in their home, no money problems, she just doesn't see the point of paying for a home that has lost so much value!!
ok,the market crashed, we all are aware of that, i said, does that mean we ruin our perfect credit scores just because we no longer like it?  or the value dropped???
this is soooooo risky behavior! my ds has never had a stain on his financially situation and now he's willing to go along with this?   her foo has lots of money, and they will proudly tell you that, and they will also tell you they claimed bankruptcy a number of times to get what they have today! 
we (me and dh) are not even close to that. we chug along and raised our kids to be grateful for what you have, not what you dont. allmy kids are now successful contributing adults now, but this is just bad, really bad! 
but then again, on the other hand, maybe living under the same roof, (mansion) with them, maybe ds will get a clue.
and i was feeling so good
  just sad.
:'(   one day at a time
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: elsieshaye on November 14, 2010, 08:49:53 AM
I'm sorry.  It's hard to watch them make mistakes, no matter how old they are.
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: seasage on November 14, 2010, 08:56:06 AM
Uh oh.  This is not a small issue.  I'm trying to think what I would do if my DS said the same to me.  (He too is in a house whose market value has dropped.  He too has married into a rich family.)

The questions I would be asking myself are: What is the simplest single message I want to give him?  How do I say this message without getting his back up?

Answer to the first question is simple.  I would want to tell him that ruining his good name (i.e. his good credit rating) is not sound planning.  I wonder if he understands that he probably will NOT be able to get that house he is saving for because he won't be able to get a mortgage with a poor credit rating.  I wonder if he has thought about the costs and financial ramifications of renting vs. owning his present house, because after walking away from his present house, after the inlaws ask them to leave, he and DIL will be renting.  Period.  For many years.

How to tell him?  I would try to maneuver a quiet lunch with him alone.  The best way to deliver the message in a manner that would get him to listen instead of feeling defensive --- well that IS the problem, isn't it?
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: justdontunderstand on November 14, 2010, 09:08:49 AM
Erma,
If I read you right, you are confused/hurt that your son is rejecting a value taught to him--fulfilling his promises (mortgage).  Am I wrong in thinking that you see this as one more instance in which DIL is influencing him to do something you thought he would never do?

If I am right....I get it...I really do. My DIL has seemingly put demands on my DS that he has complied with that never fit with the values he was raised with....things like materialism, seeking money and prestige etc. Part of the reason we are estranged from DS as well as DIL is that he has changed so much since meeting her. Maybe he would have changed anyway but is it conincidence that it all started when she came on the scene?

One of the reason I am "Just Don't Understand" on this website is because I really don't understand! :P
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: erma on November 14, 2010, 09:12:14 AM
yes seasage, i agree. i just couldn't respond yesterday at all. i merely said, "oh, hmmm" and quickly picked up a christmas item off the shelf and started playing with it with gc, so as to not continue with the conversation. however, dil picked up where ds left off telling me "everybodys doing it" and "it only ruins your credit for 7 yrs" and the best one was " MY BFF DID IT 2 YEARS AGO, AND THEY ARE ALREADY GETTING CREDIT CARDS BACK" !!!!
i could not even respond, i kept trying to smile and turn the corner.................UGH!
but yes, i will have set a private lunch one day with him. quickly.  i know he was really feeling awkward yesterday, i just could see it in his face. i believe this is all her idea. my ds has worked since he was 14 and could earn a paycheck, and i know what a good name means to him.
dil has always had money, so she really has no clue.
all i can do is say my concerns, maybe he will take heed, maybe not.   :-\
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: erma on November 14, 2010, 09:25:42 AM
JDU, he still has his values, i truly believe in my heart of hearts, he feels awkward about it, and wanted my opinion yesterday, and wanted me to explain it to dil. meaning, i tell her the problems with claiming bankruptcy, she sees me as the bad guy, and ds walks away scottfree, but gets his point across.
that's the eggs we need to watch out for!  i love my ds AND dil dearly, i don't wish them to do this, i will attempt to have a private lunch with ds and remind him of why this isn't a good idea.
what they chose to do after that, well, its up to them. will it hurt me beyond words to see that happen?? of coarse.
can i do anything about it? no.
i am an extremely intuitive person, i just believe in yesterdays instance, he was wanting me to say something to discourage dil.
nope, hes a big boy, he must deal with his own.
:-X :-\ :'(
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: seasage on November 14, 2010, 09:31:07 AM
Quote from: erma on November 14, 2010, 09:25:42 AM
i am an extremely intuitive person, i just believe in yesterdays instance, he was wanting me to say something to discourage dil.
nope, hes a big boy, he must deal with his own.
:-X :-\ :'(

I am sure your intuition is correct.  I think he wants you to confirm and reinforce his value system, the one he learned from you.
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: seasage on November 14, 2010, 09:48:51 AM
Quote from: erma on November 14, 2010, 09:25:42 AM
nope, hes a big boy, he must deal with his own.
:-X :-\ :'(

Aside from the ethical issue, there is the sheer practical issue of money decisions.  It may or may not be a good decision to walk away from an underwater mortgage.  You and DS could begin exploring the financial issue together?  You may have more time to do the research than he.

Here is one site that gives a starting set of plus vs. minus points to consider: http://library.hsh.com/articles/homeowners-repeat-buyers/the-pros-and-cons-of-walking-away-from-your-mortgage.html

Something that also needs to be factored in is his present mortgage interest rate vs. future mortgage interest rate.  Rates at present are very low.  (DS might consider re-financing instead of walking away.)  In a couple of years, interest rates may be twice what they are now.  Some very good financial planners and economists are predicting that an inflationary period, or superinflationary period, will begin in ~two years or so.  This inflation will bring housing values back, and will also reset interest rates at a high value.

So the considerations your DS needs to think about are a lot different than the experiences of his kn-laws!!!!
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: LaurieS on November 14, 2010, 09:49:56 AM
Is telling them that that is the dumbest thing you ever heard, be out of the question?

I would not lecture or offer advice about financial responsibilities because it's obvious they are perfectly aware of the consequences.. Instead I would ask your ds to go to a financial specialist and have him pay an outsider to help them work their way through an upside down mortgage.  They may be able to come up with a plan that works better and keeps him protected.

I had a friend who did what your son is proposing.. but first he bought another home, then let the current house go back to the bank.  It wasn't as devastating mortgage wise but it was hell on his credit rating.. so that effected his home insurance, car insurance, etc... Then he decided to switch jobs and ut oh it effected his job search as well... 

What's that old northern saying that was discussed here a few days ago.. You can lead a horse to water, if you find the lake frozen over just beat his head against the ice a few times, because you sure can't make him drink  (not really a saying but I thought it worked )  :D
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: erma on November 14, 2010, 10:18:41 AM
lol, laurie, your humor!!!!!! :D ;D ;D   i will look at that site seasage, but, dil's career is an ACCOUNTANT for an entire county.  and all ethics aside, bankruptcy judges these days are not as lenient towards those who just walk away. i would hate to see either of them have their wages garnished, or worse, lose their jobs. and i believe they sit at 5% on their mortgage as is.
if they had no money, no liquid assets, no property, and didn't make the 6 figures, i might say it was a good idea. but for the sheer fact that she wants a "big yard" (she means more acres) is absurd.  :-X
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: seasage on November 14, 2010, 10:37:08 AM
Quote from: erma on November 14, 2010, 10:18:41 AM
lol, laurie, your humor!!!!!! :D ;D ;D   i will look at that site seasage, but, dil's career is an ACCOUNTANT for an entire county.

Great job on the humor Laurie!
Erma, perhaps we should stipulate they were pulling your leg?
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: erma on November 14, 2010, 10:45:05 AM
no, they were serious. that's what just floored me! i had to hear it twice, and then i just about fell over.
she may know about monies, but she has no clue when it comes to the courts. she only knows what she has been told by her "bff and foo"
with so many people falling in to forcloser and filing for bankruptcy,for the judges it has become the norm. but you cant hide your income from the IRS and THATS who provides the courts with the "true" incomes.
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: LaurieS on November 14, 2010, 11:00:58 AM
All you can suggest is that they find an attorney and let him spell it out for them... Tell your ds to stop listening to the dil's foos and hear it from specialist before making such a enormous financial decision.
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: erma on November 14, 2010, 11:11:41 AM
yep thats what im gonna do. thanks.
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: justdontunderstand on November 14, 2010, 11:36:21 AM
Erma,
I am not trying to be argumentative (or unkind) but can someone still have their values if they go along with something against those values? I see what you are saying, that he seemed to want you to make the argument against the idea for him. But in the end, if he goes through with it--that is not maintaining the values he has. Is it?

I apply this to our situation with DIL and DS. I do not want to face up (sometimes) to the fact that we have a lot of the problems we do because DS has not lived up to  the values we thought we taught him--loyalty, thoughtfulness and general caring.

Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: erma on November 14, 2010, 12:26:43 PM
absolutely its maintaining the values he has. his values. not mine. that's why in my post earlyer, i say,

Quoteall i can do is say my concerns, maybe he will take heed, maybe not.

Quotenope, hes a big boy, he must deal with his own.

as his mom, i will pull him aside, let him know my concerns in private, what he does with it is his choice.
however, dil in the past, and probably now, made his life a living hell if he did not go along with her wishes.  before ds married her, she wanted him to move in with her and her foo. ds had a pair then, and told her," no way, if you want to live with you foo, i will not marry you"
that was a long time ago and now he has a child in the equation.
this is the scenario i see.....    they walk away from the house, claim bankruptcy, they move in with dil's foo, and then wham! they get their wages garnished, and are unable to move out of dil's foo, and their stuck!  i know my son isn't in love with the way her foo has handled situations in the past, including a recent one.
so if the (projected) scenario happens, i will be heartbroken for my ds and gc.

and im not trying to be argumentative or unkind either.
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: JaneF on November 14, 2010, 12:31:06 PM
I was shocked to read this post! What a coincidence. My DS and DIL just moved in with her mother last month because "her mom needed help because she just got a divorce after 27 yrs of marriage". That sometimes happens when you are unfaithful to spouse! I feel bad for your situation, they are not making a sound financial decision obviously. I just can't really believe this is actually all for more yard though...i smell a rat. Hope they get sound advice from professional. She is an accountant, but I am not sure I'd trust her financial advice if she'd consider this dumb plan! Living with other family members isn't always easy either, they may resent lack of privacy soon. And like previously said, if you damage credit like that you'll be renting for a long time when they ask you to leave (or you choose to leave). Good grief, file bankruptcy several times to not have to pay debts? Had folks I know that did that 4 times at least grrrr. AFTER MAX OUT ALL CREDIT CARDS TO GET NEW STUFF FIRST OF COURSE!  ::)
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: seasage on November 14, 2010, 12:40:03 PM
Quote from: erma on November 14, 2010, 12:26:43 PM
this is the scenario i see.....    they walk away from the house, claim bankruptcy, they move in with dil's foo, and then wham! they get their wages garnished, and are unable to move out of dil's foo, and they're stuck!

To a WW with a strong little devil on her left shoulder: Please give this message to your little devil and send him over to erma's DS.
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: erma on November 14, 2010, 01:26:23 PM
on my way!!   :)
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: MrsKitty on November 15, 2010, 12:48:58 PM
Erma-I think this is a situation that you'll have to let your son make his decisions on his own with is wife (I think this is what you plan to do, anyway). I know that you want to help, but think that if you do get him to change his mind, his wife will be angry with you and they will probably end up letting the home go any way. Your son is a grown married man with a child, he needs to start standing on his own two feet and making his own decisions (be they good or bad) with his wife. He may have been telling you in the hopes that you would step in, but I think you know that this simply isn't your place to do so. Three or four or five people in a marriage is too many--I think you agree that only two people fit in a marriage. I mean, what would you think if your DH brought your MIL in to the middle of your financial decisions? I am guessing that you would not be happy with that.  As you said--he is a big boy and he needs to make his own big boy decisions. Good luck.
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: Marilyn on November 16, 2010, 06:35:21 AM
Erma,maybe you could just say something like.........I guess I'm just not a risk taker,i would be so afraid of...............then tell him why you could never do that.And you prefer to play it safe.
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: Tara on November 16, 2010, 07:53:49 AM
Erma   I agree with Mom in waiting that saying something in a simple neutral voice tone  (not too long winded like I might be ;- )  )  regarding

'my concern is_______)  then as mom you have said something which I do believe we have a right to do so  in these kinds of situations.

At this point you know what is happening  maybe  go do something good for yourself:  a walk, yoga, movie, what ever you do that rests your mind.  its tough to detach but essential if you are to have some peace of mind.  I know its easier said than done, (for me when I get stressed over an issue anyway)

I was at a talk over the weekend about meditation and the mind and this  example was given:  When the mind gets totally
focused on an issue (like this one) its like taking a magnifying glass and holding close to the skin in the hot sun.  It will burn you.
but if you can pull back a bit and redirect your attention  it can be helpful and less suffering

Peace to you Erma

Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: erma on November 16, 2010, 08:23:34 AM
morning ladies!
no concerns, im ok.  i have "dumped" the issiue. i softly gave him my concerns as a mom, gave him the websites and materials to read, told him what ever they decided i would stand by it, i didnt have to agree, but i would stand by it, i said i love you, and dropped it.
he didnt get upset at all, (although he wasnt in DIL's presence) he even said thanks mom, i know your concerned about me. i just said, yep, its a mom thing.
still dont know what they have decided, but they will probably end up walking away.
not my deal. their deal. i have enough on my plate, dont need anybody elses to deal with.
so, on with the holidays!
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: Tara on November 16, 2010, 08:44:28 AM
good for you Erma!
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: catchingup on November 16, 2010, 10:06:48 AM
Quote from: MrsKitty on November 15, 2010, 12:48:58 PM
Erma-I think this is a situation that you'll have to let your son make his decisions on his own with is wife (I think this is what you plan to do, anyway). I know that you want to help, but think that if you do get him to change his mind, his wife will be angry with you and they will probably end up letting the home go any way. Your son is a grown married man with a child, he needs to start standing on his own two feet and making his own decisions (be they good or bad) with his wife. He may have been telling you in the hopes that you would step in, but I think you know that this simply isn't your place to do so. Three or four or five people in a marriage is too many--I think you agree that only two people fit in a marriage. I mean, what would you think if your DH brought your MIL in to the middle of your financial decisions? I am guessing that you would not be happy with that.  As you said--he is a big boy and he needs to make his own big boy decisions. Good luck.

I agree wholeheartedly with what Kitty says here but you could think up the biggest cock and bull story you heard from a friend about someone else who did this and--well!!! see if he listens

Secondly I would tell it in front of DIL by firstly saying that any decision they make is their business but..........
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: Marilyn on November 16, 2010, 10:15:54 AM
I was at a talk over the weekend about meditation and the mind and this  example was given:  When the mind gets totally
focused on an issue (like this one) its like taking a magnifying glass and holding close to the skin in the hot sun.  It will burn you.
but if you can pull back a bit and redirect your attention  it can be helpful and less suffering

Thanks Tara.............Very GOOD advice!!!
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: luise.volta on November 16, 2010, 10:52:26 AM
I sure like the magnifying glass analogy (or is it a metaphor?) Very useful! Sending love...
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: Orly on November 16, 2010, 11:52:12 AM
Quote from: seasage on November 14, 2010, 12:40:03 PM
Quote from: erma on November 14, 2010, 12:26:43 PM
this is the scenario i see.....    they walk away from the house, claim bankruptcy, they move in with dil's foo, and then wham! they get their wages garnished, and are unable to move out of dil's foo, and they're stuck!

To a WW with a strong little devil on her left shoulder: Please give this message to your little devil and send him over to erma's DS.

OMG!  My little devil is jumping up and down on my shoulder, pulling not only his hair out by the fistfuls but mine too!  This would be a hill for me to die on, ladies.  No way in paradise lost, would I go along with my spouse ruining our credit rating for years to come...to get out from under a mortgage/loan/obligation because of a whim.  And the reason given to Erma is a whim.  Selling the house at a loss or refinancing and regrouping later on down the road makes more sense.   I definitely would not be steering any business to the firm that employs a family member with such shoddy tactics either.  GAAAAHHH! I'm sorry Erma...but, GAAAAAHHHH!
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: luise.volta on November 16, 2010, 11:59:17 AM
It seems to me that we're talking ethics here. Sometimes, unfortunately, an old fashioned word.

And I have seen people "ruin their credit" and still get more in a blink of the eye. Boggles the mind...
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: Orly on November 16, 2010, 12:58:59 PM
I agree to a point Luise,  it used to be that way but now credit is drying up and getting much harder to find.  People with no ticks on their ratings are being turned down.  When it gets harder and harder to qualify...that is when a person needs to make sure their rating is shining and blemish free.  Having grown up with a freer lifestyle than us older people...our children really do not have a clue what can happen to them.  And some of our generation are having the slap of sticker shock yank them up short too.
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: Pen on November 16, 2010, 02:10:31 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on November 16, 2010, 11:59:17 AM
It seems to me that we're talking ethics here. Sometimes, unfortunately, an old fashioned word.

And I have seen people "ruin their credit" and still get more in a blink of the eye. Boggles the mind...

This is a divisive issue between my family and DIL's FOO, and one that brought DS to his feet defending us to his FIL who is very well off now but walked away from two huge debts. We don't think it's ethical, but apparently they don't see it that way as long as they're making $$$. Of course we've never openly criticised DS's FIL, not even to DS; DS figured it out all by himself.
Title: Re: new day, new issiue
Post by: luise.volta on November 16, 2010, 03:45:49 PM
Well, if things are tightening up, I'm glad! All of that is so irresponsible!