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Problem Solving => Adult Sons and/or Adult Daughters => Topic started by: dvg on May 29, 2011, 07:31:17 AM

Title: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on May 29, 2011, 07:31:17 AM
So glad I found this site.  My 19 year old daughter is breaking my heart and I don't know what to do.  She took off with her half brother and a friend of his, and did not tell me where they were going or when, or if, she would be back.  She said she is "done" with me - but she is in college and I am paying her tuition and rent.  She says this is not her home, that it is a "toxic environment" and that she will never come here again. 

She and I live with my mother, and up until she met her two half brothers we had the usual ups and downs but got along.  She was an excellent student in high school.  Two days ago she left with her half brother and a friend that he brought from New York. I had said that the friend couldn't stay here, but wound up letting him stay for a night anyway.  This half brother has an alcohol and drug problem and I think my daughter is going to follow that path.

After an argument she packed all her things and put them in his car.  When they were all together before they left I said "have fun and take care". She wouldn't even roll down the car window for me to say goodbye. When she got out to throw something in the trash, I said "I will always love you" and she just said "no" and stormed off.

I'm confused and don't know what to do.

I had promised I would pay this year's rent and college, but it is becoming obvious that I mean nothing to her now.  While she was at college and away from the half brother, we talked or emailed every few days and got along well, but now she is cutting me off.  She is also verbally abusive to my mother, calling her a "Nazi butch" when she asked her to stop slamming doors. Now my mother's heart is broken too.  She said that DD has destroyed all feelings she had for her.

If she comes back in time to make it to college, I will pay the tuition, but I can see estrangement on the horizon.  I'm not even sure she will make it back to college, because she could get drawn into the punk drug lifestyle of the half brother. 

She says "I'm an adult and I do what I want" but she refuses to get a summer job to pay for her expenses, and she has an expensive apartment because she did not put in for the dorm.  She said if she had to go back to the dorm she was dropping out and I gave in to that emotional blackmail.

She has caused me pain beyond what I could imagine.  I know I need to "detach with love" as they say in Al-Anon, but don't know how to do that.  Trying to focus on other areas, but it is so hard.  My worst fear is that she could die out there, second worst is that she will cut me out of her life.  She is in a good college and could be ruining her life.

I go back and forth between being angry at her and her manipulations (she has been physically abusive and lied and stolen), feeling like a victim, to feeling guilty and inadequate and wondering what I did wrong.

How do you survive it when a beloved child says "I'm through with you" and means it?
And have any of you distanced yourself from an adult child who hurt you so much?
Should I wait it out and hope and pray for the best, or start preparing for a life without her?
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: pam1 on May 29, 2011, 08:09:55 AM
Welcome dvg :)

If you haven't already done so, please read the Forum Agreement in the category "Open Me."  We ask all new members to do so, not b/c there is anything wrong with your post.

Just a question so I get more of a background how are the half-brothers related to your DD?  From her father?  And they are older?

Glad you made it here, there are a lot of posters in similar situations that can relate to you.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on May 29, 2011, 10:24:48 AM
Welcome...take a step back, take some deep breaths and then focus on something that brings you comfort. The first thing of importance is you. Sending love...
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on May 29, 2011, 10:32:57 AM
The half brothers are from her father's first wife.  I left him when he was a baby because he was a bipolar alcoholic and would not get help, and I couldn't take it any more.  They are older, the one she is with now is 24 and on drugs, and the other one, who I kicked out when he pushed her when he was drunk, is 25.

Thank you for being here. 

I am trying to prepare for the worst case scenario because she is getting into a very dangerous situation.  I still love her but have to admit that, at this time, I do not like her as a person.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: pam1 on May 29, 2011, 10:42:04 AM
(((dvg)))

I do not know much about bipolar but is it possible that it is genetic?  From what I know a lot of the mental illnesses have addictions that come with them. 

Your concern and confusion is very understandable, this must be a very hard time for you.  I think you have to do what feels right, what are your instincts telling you? 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pooh on May 29, 2011, 03:22:59 PM
Welcome dvg and so sorry.  You will find many here that have estranged themselves from adult children (including me).  It's not something that is done easily and it stinks big time, but in many cases, it's for the best.  You have to realize that we can not control them any longer.  We can be there to support them when they are doing things to the best of their abilities, and give them support and a soft place to land when they have some failures.  As long as they are not doing things that are unhealthy, there is nothing that says that you have to help them or enable them.  Like Luise said, take a step back right now and do something for yourself.  You were a good Mother, that doesn't give an adult child the right to try to make you feel like you were not.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: SassyDI on May 29, 2011, 07:04:23 PM
She is young I kind of did the samething only my mother had no clue where I was.  Just left the dorm room no warning I was upset and mad teenager at the time.  But I came around DM and I don't always have the best relationship but it got better.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: lancaster lady on May 30, 2011, 12:16:51 AM
DVG:

Whether for good or bad reasons I reckon you will hear from her sooner or later .
she is kicking up her heels , stating a fact , when she realises where the grass IS greener
she'll be back .
Meanwhile I know you are in bits , be strong , I'm sure she's not worrying about you .
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pen on May 30, 2011, 09:19:56 AM
Welcome, DVG. You've come to the right place; many here have been in your shoes and can relate to your story. What's good about this site is that you can also get the perspective of someone like SassyDI who was in your DD's shoes as a young woman and has since come around. It must be comforting to hear about her life now that she's grown and has come to terms with her DM.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Kennedy on May 30, 2011, 12:58:01 PM
Welcome, You've found a group of very wise and helpful women here. 
I can only imagine how your heart must be breaking. No one can hurt you as badly as a child I've learned. I wish I had a wise answer for you.
Sending you hugs and prayers.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: tryingmybest on May 30, 2011, 02:12:14 PM
Bi polar can be genetic absolutely.  :-\Sending you a hug.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: forever spring on May 30, 2011, 04:21:27 PM
Quote from: Donna on May 29, 2011, 04:39:20 PM
Unfortunately, we as parents are not in control of the outside stimuli that affect our children, their thought patterns, their behaviors and their choices.  However, we have brought them through to adulthood, and if they choose to go astray it is their choice, if they wish to throw their lives away, it's their choice.  If they choose to throw you away, it's their choice.




IMO this is true. Our children are not our children, they are their own persons and will develop accordingly. I do think in your case, your daughter will come back, she is young and impressionable now but it seems that you have given her a good basis to come to her senses when the time is right. Sorry to hear about your problems at the moment. HUGS
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: forever spring on May 30, 2011, 04:23:00 PM
Sorry I got the quoting wrong again, the second paragraph is from me.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on June 01, 2011, 09:34:27 AM
Thank you all so much for your understanding and support... and a special thank you to SassyD for showing that it is possible for relationships to heal.  This is the worst heartbreak.  If she cuts herself off from me, there is nothing I can do.  She will HAVE to be in touch with me for a while because I am paying her apartment rent and the part of tuition that her scholarship doesn't cover.  Her rage is against both me and my mother, and she is breaking her grandmother's heart too.  My mother said after one especially hurtful comment that she will distance herself from her... not cut her off but she won't talk to her for a while.

You're right, there is nothing I can do except create a life for myself, and be prepared if she does not want to be in it.  For all the talk about the joys of family life, being in a family has been the greatest source of anguish ever.  If there is reincarnation, next time around I do not want to be in a family.  Her early years were wonderful but I do not know how I can survive the pain and heartbreak.

So glad you all are here and that there is a place I can come and talk to wonderful people who understand.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: AnonymousDIL on June 01, 2011, 09:39:46 AM
So sorry you are going through this ((((((((((((((((((((((dvg))))))))))))))))))))))).

These sound like growing pains to me though. She is VERY young! She will probably come around. My brother and I both went through this sort of thing with our DM. I (25) have come around and have a wonderful relationship with DM. DB (27) has not come around yet..... There is hope. It is just a phase. Hopefully it doesn't last real long.  :)
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: CityGirl on June 01, 2011, 01:02:19 PM
DVG, I am sending lots of hopeful and healing thoughts and prayers your way.

I cannot imagine the extra pain of not just the rejection but your fear for her safety.  She is very young but hopefully she is smart enough not to throw away all the advantages you have provided her with.

In the meantime the best advice is what you have been already given - take care of yourself.  Al Anon is a great source of support, maybe a few meetings would help?  Do you have a clergy person you feel comfortable talking to?  You need to do anything you can do to build up your own support system.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: alohomora on June 01, 2011, 02:09:23 PM
When I was 18 I left my home town and went across the country for school. My parents at the time, IMO, were too involved in my business and I yearned for freedom. By mid-year, I cut them off financially and got student loans/jobs to pay my own way.

I think at 19, after being at school for a year, and going home to not one, but essentially two mother figures, can be overwhelming on a teenager trying to 'find' herself. What my family didn't get for a long time was that my parents house was no longer my 'home'. My home was in my new city.

I don't know your situation. But she might have felt suffocated and reacted in an immature manor. Maybe she doesn't know/hasn't learned yet how to act like an adult.

Someone insulting you doesn't deserve your assistance however. I wouldn't take back her education money and prevent her from going to school with three months until September. But she needs to understand that actions have consequences.

She 19. She can choose to spend her summer as she wish's. She doesn't NEED to live at home anymore. However, you don't need to be supporting someone financially that is insulting to you. Maybe you all need a bit of space to take a breath. The seperation for now could be a good thing. Hopefully she makes the right choices and matures.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on June 01, 2011, 10:46:56 PM
Thank you, AnonymousDIL, Donna, CityGirl, and alohamora.  I only hope she comes around eventually... she has said "I'm through with you" before.  I've been to Alanon and have a few people I can trust who I've told about this.  All of them say tough love with the insults, and to let her go and choose what she wants to do.

I am trying to release the guilt.  I did the best I could but that was not good enough.  At best, I have been terribly inadequate as a mother.  But she did get through high school and into a good college, so now it is up to her to do what she will with her opportunities.  I can't do anything to get her back.  I feel so helpless.

I sent her a text that I love her no matter what but don't know if she received it because her half brother, who she's with now, has said he will get her a new phone and throw hers away and that I can "pluck off"... and he means it.  She will probably go along with him so now I have no way to get in touch with her.

Alohamora, if you don't mind my asking, do you have a relationship with your parents now?  She has a half brother who has a great deal of money, and maybe he will pay for her college.  I will always love her but cannot take the emotional roller coaster.  She doesn't have to live here if she hates it here, but if she wants a year round apartment, I think she should get a job to pay for the difference in cost between that and the dorm, which is much cheaper.  If I don't hear from her by the time tuition is due, I'm not going to pay it because if I have no way of knowing if she is in school, why should I?

There is nothing more painful in this life than family.

I am trying to look at it as that, if she cuts me off, then I will be free of the pain of family, and somehow try to get through life without her.  I know she has my phone number memorized so if she ever wants me I will be there.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: lancaster lady on June 02, 2011, 12:45:59 AM
DVG........I don't  think you have seen the last of your DD .Until she shows up again ,you have to keep busy .I know you feel as if you have lost a limb , but your DD will be back . Even only to collect stuff , then you'll know where and how she is .It won't be easy for her to eat.humble pie but are these guys going to look after her forever ? I think not .....never give up.hope ,but get on with your own life as best you can .
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on June 13, 2011, 07:39:23 AM
Thanks to everyone here for your caring and support.  There is no heartbreak like that from the biological family.

The good news is that she is back... at least for now, and so is her half brother (my ex-stepson).  He wrecked his car and they are here waiting to get it fixed.  He is sometimes very nice and generous to her, sometimes mean and paranoid, and she vacillates between running off to see her friends in another city and going off with him. 

She does not consider this her home, but if that is the case, all I am offering her is that when she is done with her adventures, I'll get her a bus ticket here and then to college.  I know she wants to spread her wings, which is fine for a 19 year old, but I also don't think I should support her financially if that's what she wants to do.  If she wants to cut the apron strings, it's past time for me to cut the purse strings.  She likes to say "I'm an adult" but she wants to be an adult with unlimited financial support.  Eventually the half brother will get tired of subsidizing her.

He's not a good influence on her.  His mother let him go everywhere and do anything he wanted, even as a child, which is probably why he thinks I'm "obsessive, controlling, intrusive"... when all I want from DD when she's away is a text message every other day or so to let me know she's alive.  Alcohol and drugs are involved with the half brother, and she has threatened to start using drugs too, so I have reason to worry.  One minute she "hates" me and is "done" with me, but then there are times she texts me about how his behavior hurts her.

The big challenge for me is to find my own life... parenting is so all consuming and exhausting.  I have to remember that I have an identity and a life apart from family.  I so understand those who choose not to have a family!  Sometimes I feel like parenting is a guaranteed fail.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pooh on June 13, 2011, 08:19:58 AM
I'm glad dvg that she has come back, and I'm really glad that you have learned to try not and subsidize her lifestyle.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Ruth on June 13, 2011, 06:33:55 PM
Welcome and I am new here also.  Reading the posts helps me and I am thankful for the wisdom these women are sharing.  From my tiny storehouse, I can only encourage you to not worst case scenario.  I've been through the mill also with my DS, and he spent ten years in a foreign country without even telling me goodbye, coming home only 3 times during those ten years, I cried a river and begged and wrote pages of letters, all to no avail.  It is amazing nothing happened to him, and I used to imagine the worst, sometimes I grew (out of the blue) just convinced he was going to kill himself, and i did bizarre things sending people over to him to try and 'rescue' him, etc.  I don't even think he's especially angry with me, I think he just doesn't care, and that is acutely painful.  I'm a pretty level headed person except to when it comes to my son, but I'm getting a lot better.  I would roll it over as much as you can and push away catastrophic thoughts when they come into your mind.  pray for their protection and live on doing other things and taking care of the people in your life and yourself.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: justus on June 14, 2011, 01:48:00 PM
I know it is hard, but you have to let her go if you want her to come back. And, just like when she was 2, you have to set boundaries you can live with. For instance, let her know that when second semester rolls around you will pay only enough money for her to live in a dorm. If that means she won't go back to college, that is her choice as an adult. If she wants to live in an apartment, that is her choice as an adult and that means she has to pay the difference. All of it is her choice, and you do her no favors by protecting her from the consequences of her choices. You are giving her plenty of time to find a job.

This threatening to do drugs, etc... Hate to tell you this, but if she is hanging out with people who do drugs, odds are she is already using. If she isn't, then there is nothing you can do to stop her anyway if she wants to use. Tell her that it is her choice to do drugs, you don't want her to, but you can't stop her and you won't be blackmailed by that sort of a threat.

When my DD went away to college, she all of a sudden hated me. DH said it was her way of separating herself from me. She had to create distance. I drove the 2 1/2 hours to pick her up one holiday and she didn't talk to me at all on the way home. If I tried to say something, she would jerk her head to look away from me. I was livid by the time I got home. I told her she didn't have to like me or to talk to me, but if I was going to go to the trouble of picking her up, then she better treat me with decency and respect or she could find another ride or stay on campus, because I was never going to go through a ride like that again. It was never so bad, but that year, she was a awful to both DH and I.

She just graduated with her MS and has moved home while she looks for a job. We helped her move. The ride home was so very pleasant. We talked, laughed, gossiped, and sang out loud to the radio. It does get better.

The best advise I can advise is to treat her like an adult. Expect her to be responsible for herself and don't protect her from the consequences of her choices. She will grow out of this.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on June 15, 2011, 07:55:36 PM
Ruth, I am so sorry you have gone through this with your son.  This has to be the worst pain a parent could ever face.  The fears, the worries, the not knowing if they are even alive.  I remember when she was little what a pure delight she was, how when she was born I never knew I could love someone so much.  Had no problems with her until she met her half brothers.  Now she follows this half brother around like a puppy even after he has made her cry more than once.  It is so very hard when they act like this, but all we can do is love them anyway, even while not liking this behavior.

Justus, I am so happy that it worked out for you and your daughter.  I know from your post on Ruth's thread that you know this from both sides, so I would love to have your advice on this.  My big fear is of estrangement, and I know that as long as she is in college she will have to have some contact with me if only to pay her rent and tuition.  I don't know what to do in terms of letting her go.  I know she can go where she wants, but all I want when she does is a text every other day or so to let me know she is OK.  When she was away at college and I knew she was safe, sometimes 3 or 4 days would go by, and that was fine, as I know she wanted her space.  We did exchange emails, texts, and phone calls regularly.  We seem to have a dynamic of either getting along well or not at all. 

I know she's tried drugs and is probably doing them now.  She has been driving the half brother all over the place while he gets his car fixed, and is asking me for gas money.  My feeling is that if I'm letting them borrow my car, they should pay for the gas.  Tonight she wanted my car and as she was leaving, she said they might stay out all night.  I didn't confront her because if I did, the half brother would storm off and she would follow him.  I don't want my car kept out all night.  When he has his, they can do what they want. 

I've told her that there is no money for an apartment next year and if she follows through on her threat to drop out of college, that is her adult decision.  My fear is that if I demand she treat me with decency and respect that she'll walk out of my life forever, so I wind up being a doormat, and I have to admit, I feel used.  I so hope you're right and that she will grow out of this.

I worry about her so much because there is addiction in the family.  I've been there, but left all that behind before I got pregnant.  She doesn't know, and I hope that other family members don't tell her.  Don't know if I should or not. I feel like such a failure as a parent. 

I tried my best but maybe it wasn't good enough.   For all the talk in our society about the joys of family life, the truth is that for me there is nothing more painful than family relationships.  It helps so much to know I'm not alone.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Ruth on June 16, 2011, 04:55:10 AM
DVG, trust me I feel you pain re. 'afraid to challenge her for respect etc. as she might not come back to me'.  I lived that nightmare a lot of years and I tell you I think this has more than anything precipitated my son's estrangement.  My refusal to demand respect for myself has only exacerbated his refusal to respect me, and my DD corroborates this.  My DS is strong willed and defiant, and always was, and due to trying to raise a kid who was always in your face and adept at making you feel like you are worthless overall caused me to make a lot of mistakes, in pushing back too  hard.  but I am learning one thing I believe about this which is that we have to respect ourselves and gently reaffirm to our children that we are respectable and will be respected.  Aside from that, I honestly do believe the mother/daughter bond is so strong that its rarely permanently broken.  Myself, I believe I would not loan cars, etc., nor pay for anything other than education if the child is a minor and then only if the grades are up to par and if I could afford it.  My DS is over 30 and still makes remarks at times that I should be paying for college.  He also never asked me to pay for college, (he has grants, etc. also) but his attitude is that I should just pony up and send lavish things in return for nothing, no contact or gratitude, and then even when I have done this it is never enough, and the 'you never did anything for me' attitude doesn't change.  so I'm changing instead.  I decided I won't stop communicating with my estranged DS, but it will be less often and just a generic Hi as if nothing had ever happened,  I believe this works for him.  I have used the opposite type of communication with him, the nurturing - closeness - supportive type which my DD loves and receives from me with open arms, but I can see now that he hates this and pushes me away.  Yesterday I wrote a brief email about an animal holistic care book I'm reading, not even saying hello or goodbye.  As you become more comfortable in your own skin and the fog lifts, you'll start detaching from your DD and I believe this will be the cord of love that ultimately pulls your child back.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: justus on June 16, 2011, 05:30:03 AM
I know that line you feel you are walking because I used to walk it. We are a blended family, and when one of us started walking it with our own child, the step-parent would give a reality check. You, my dear, need a reality check. You are being used and you are allowing yourself to be used. It is not unreasonable to expect your car to be home even if your DD is not. She isn't going to cut you off over something stupid like this. Her half-brother may push her to do so, but in time she will know that you were right and she was wrong.

My DS threatened to quit school when he was 18. DH told him that he better have a job before he did that because if he was adult enough to quit HS, then he would be treated like an adult. Adults pay rent and they get kicked out if they don't pay rent. He stayed in school. I could never have told him that, but I have done similar things with SD.

It really is time to set boundaries. The way I approached it with my kids was that it is what you would expect from a room mate. You wouldn't borrow your room mate's car and then expect your room mate to pay for the gas or to let you keep it out all night. She knows she is being unreasonable, she knows she is using you and she is doing it because she can and she is loosing respect for you as she does so, just like you are loosing respect for yourself as you allow her to use you. So, set those boundaries and stick to them. Lay them them out, tell her how you are feeling and that you simply cannot live like this anymore. If she wants to be treated like an adult, she has to behave like an adult, and you are going to start treating her like one. Adults get jobs, adults pay rent, adults fill up the gas tank, adults don't keep the car out all night, and adults treat the people they live with with respect and courtesy or they get kicked out. Be fair and loving, but don't be a doormat. If you are, she will never cut you off, but she will use the fear that she will to use you for the rest of your life. By allowing her to do this you are keeping her from growing up.

My DS decided that as soon as he graduated from HS, he was moving to the East Coast to live with his uncle and go to school there. The last day he was here, he and DD argued, then he started treating me with disrespect. The way he talked to me was awful. He wasn't supposed to leave for a couple of days, but I made him leave then. I told him I would not ever tolerate being treated like that no matter how old he got or how grown up he thought he was. He left, told everyone a pack of lies to get sympathy then called me the next day to apologize. He found out at his Uncle's house that everything I ever told him was true. After coming very close to being kicked out of his Uncle's house, he pulled his head out of his behind and at 22 is doing very well for himself. I am quite proud of him. We talk every couple of weeks and the calls usually last at least an hour. We use Facebook as "proof of life" as another poster put it.

She is acting like a brat right now and because she is blackmailing you, there are no real consequences. Stop acting out of fear and start acting in the best interests of your DD. She needs consequences and she needs to know that she cannot use you. If you keep rescuing her, she will never learn what it is to be an adult.

Yes, you should tell her about the history of addiction. I grew up in a family full of secrets. For instance, I didn't find out that my OS was not my full sister until I was in my mid 20s. I felt so betrayed and angry with my Ps for keeping such key piece of my life a secret. Everyone else knew but me and my siblings. There was addiction in my family, too. We either are drunks, or we marry them. Knowing about that addiction issue made me and my siblings very careful about using both drugs and alcohol.

Let her know about her families history, but don't get preachy. Just tell her that you think she is old enough to know now that she is an adult and that you hope she will be careful so she doesn't repeat the past.

You can only control yourself. If she is going to leave you, she is going to leave you no matter how much money you throw at her or how much you let her use you. Set reasonable boundaries with her and her brother. Don't welcome him in your house if he is going to be abusive to you. The other thing is don't say one bad word about him to your DD. Let her figure out on her own that he is using her and you through her. Listen to her cry about him, and don't say a word. When she asks for advice, put it right back on her. Tell her he will treat her like this for as long as she lets him, so what does she want to do about it?
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on June 16, 2011, 07:39:16 AM
Ruth and Justus, thank you so much.  Ruth, I think I will try a different method of communicating with her, more matter of fact.  She is very stubborn and strong willed, and does not want to listen.  She keeps pushing the boundaries, and I keep giving in because of the fear of estrangement.  She is very adept at making me feel worthless, all the "I hate you" and "I'm through with you" but when she needs something, she does not hesitate to ask.  I so hope you're right that our mother-daughter bond is too strong to be broken.

Justus, thank you for taking the time to write that wise and thoughtful reply.  I am taking your words to heart, and yes, I really needed a reality check!  The only other real adult here is my mother, who is so hurt by DD's behavior and attitude that she talks (only to me, never to her) about "divorcing herself emotionally" from DD.  She's devastated by the language and hurtful words, but I think eventually she will forgive her.

I really like what you said about her treating my car as she would a roommate's car.  When she gets back, I'll tell her exactly that - yes, you are an adult and you can go where you want, when you want, and when your brother has his car back of course you will be free to do that, but this is my car.  I'm going to use that line about expecting the car to be here at night even if she is not, and tell her how when adults borrow a car, they put gas in it and return it at a prearranged time (and that's what I've done whenever I've borrowed a car, and what I expect when I lent it to a friend).  She wants to be accorded the freedom of an adult, but given everything like a child, and I have to practice tough love and tell her she can't have it both ways.  I've already given her money for gas and enough is enough.  I could tell them that f they want to stay out all night tonight, they are free to call a cab.

Part of her problem with me is what her half brother tells her.  He's said that I'm obsessive, controlling, and intrusive.  His frame of reference is a mother who abused and neglected him to the point he was put in foster care, and who let him drop out of school and go wherever he wanted when he was 14.  He has no idea of any other sort of parenting.

You're right, if he gets angry and storms off, or if he just leaves, and she decides to go with him, I'll have to let her go.  I'll also let him subsidize her, as I am not going to send her any money when she's gone - except for a bus ticket home, and I've told her that. 

I'll have to find the right time to tell her about the history of addiction.  She also will know that it was all before I got pregnant.  Do you think it would be best to tell her when her brother is not around?  I know that she has tried drugs, because she told me that she had (sometimes she does confide in me), and I can also tell that he's using again.  Do you think I should say something to him, too?  I helped him get off them last year, and he has even admitted that since he met me I have always been there for him. If so, I would come from the perspective of care and concern, and leave the way open for him to deny it if that's his choice by saying if I'm wrong, and I hope I am, I apologize in advance. 

You're right, I should not tolerate being treated so disrespectfully.  She knows I won't kick her out, but I can always walk away from her when she gets nasty - and I guess I should never say never about kicking her out.  I could say she has to leave, but when she is ready to treat me and my mother respectfully, the door is always open.

The time she said her brother was being so mean to her and she was "through" with him, all I said was I'm sorry he's treating you this way and that drugs change people - nothing negative about him as a person.  So I guess that's the one thing I've been doing right! 

I'm so glad it worked out with you and your DS.  It sounds like you have a really good relationship.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Ruth on June 16, 2011, 08:43:15 AM
I'll just add this dvg and I say this with all the humility in the world just be careful not to overcorrect (I did) because it is natural to swing too far in the other direction and make things worse so I hope the blunders I did I can help you not to make the same mistake.  I started taking appropriate boundaries but communicated it with too much 'power' which only made my defiant ds more distant.  I am working at just being matter of fact and grossly impersonal because I've got a lot of rebuilding to do.  I have lots of unanswered questions but I'll just have to feel it out as I go along:  do I allow crude remarks if he ever comes back to my home?  do I allow him to smoke pot here?  I don't know totally how to set limits with a 30 yr old and its nuts that I have to I can't imagine my mother ever having to confront such a topic, but I pray for the grace to know what to do and do it better if the opportunity arises. 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: justus on June 16, 2011, 09:25:59 AM
Ruth, about the pot thing, I have a rule that nothing illegal goes on in my house. If anyone brings illegal substances into my home, it is an immediate kick out. This is because if the police are called, it impacts me and they have no right to put me in that position. It is your house, your rules apply.

BTW, if pot were legal, I would have no problem with it. I think it should be legal, but until it is, it won't be in my home.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Rose799 on June 16, 2011, 11:07:00 AM
Hi Ruth & welcome to WWU,

You've received a lot of good advice here.  Wouldn't it be nice to bottle up these gals & take home with you?  :D   Wish I'd found Luise' site a LOT sooner, when dd was your dd's age.  My advice would be to set your boundaries now, before gc enter the picture.  It won't get any easier, trust me.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on June 21, 2011, 06:52:41 PM
There was another big blowup yesterday.  DD and stepson accused me of going in her room and moving something, which I didn't do - I hadn't even been in her room! - and stepson accused me of spying on them in their sleep (as if I'd want to).  Then stepson screamed at me about how I'm controlling and manipulative and have agendas (if I do, all it is, and I told them this, is that I want them to be happy).  DD called me every name in the book accusing me of something I did not do.  He also accused me of going through his stuff and hiding something of his - so did she - of course, when he looked a little more, he found it.  Neither apologized.

Thing is, I know to walk away from the screaming, and that is what I usually do, but I am so emotionally and physically exhausted that I stood there and took it.

Both of them crossed a line with me.  I'm being very distant with them and barely even speaking to them.  So it looks as if my worst fear - estrangement - is happening even though they are both here (they stormed off, but then apparently decided they did not want to fork over the money for a hotel). 

I'm beginning to look on my relationship with DD as emotionally abusive on her side (if it is on mine, I don't know what I'm doing wrong).  She will get her college tuition paid, and her housing because I agreed to that, but no more extras, simply because I am too hurt to feel like doing much for her now.

I tried.  Time to accept that the best I could do was not good enough for her.  Oh, she'll be in touch as long as she is financially dependent, and by the time she's not, I can hope and pray that she forgives me for being the horrible mother she thinks I was.

And I have to remember I was a person before I had her, and will be if she walks out of my life.

I'll be careful to not overcorrect in demanding respect.  Right now I'm thinking that more distant communication is the way to go.  If she gets in any trouble, I know I'll hear from her.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pooh on June 22, 2011, 09:49:15 AM
Bless your heart dvg.  There is absolutely no excuse for their behavior.  Please set some boundaries with them and stick to them.  If they can't treat you with respect, they need to move out.  If they can not communicate like adults, then they need to move out.  I also know that you agreed to give her the college money, but she needs to uphold her end.  Her end is to treat you with respect. 

I am afraid that even if you give her the money, she will continue to treat you this way.  She is not learning and you don't deserve that.  SS needs a lesson as well.  It is your home dvg, so it's your rules.  They don't have to like it, but they need to abide by it or move on.

You said it all with "I have to remember I was a person before I had her, and will be if she walks out of my life."  Please dvg, keep repeating that to yourself and set some boundaries for yourself.  You deserve it.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Rose799 on June 22, 2011, 10:54:15 AM
I'm so sorry, dvg.  Back when we had issues with dd & she was in college, we took quite a bit from her in order to see her graduate.  She took her grant $$ & left, knowing we'd pay her tuition.  I wish we could go back, as it didn't do a thing to improve matters.  Though dd was fully grown, I found good advice through this website.  They suggest sensible alternatives other than doing battle with them.  I also ordered their cd's.  Dh & I had many aha moments.  If only we'd known then what we now know...   They also offer advice for dp's who have ac living at home. 

http://www.thetotaltransformation.com/default.aspx
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Rose799 on June 22, 2011, 11:38:02 AM
I should have added this link.  You'll find Total Transformation articles, & parent blogs here, & you can also sign up for free e-mails...

http://www.empoweringparents.com/
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Ruth on June 22, 2011, 11:44:08 AM
I believe your dd will do a full swing at some point, I don't know when but I saw this same thing happen with my niece, in her case it was after her own children were born, but the explosions take the wind out of you.  I am so sorry and share your pain.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Bcos on June 22, 2011, 06:37:17 PM
Hi DVG,  This is my first time posting on this site, I normally look at the DIL/MIL forums but stumbled upon your post and really felt I wanted to write as I WAS that teenager.  I was awful to my mother when I was around that age and she prescribed to the tough love method.  I understand you feel that your daughter is in danger but I think she is essentially just being a teenager, testing the boundries etc.  I was taught that there is a consequence to my actions, if I behaved badly I paid for it by having privileges taken away.  If your daughter thinks you went into her room and moved stuff, who cares .. you probably paid for everything in there right? Therefore it actually belongs to you and you have every right to take it away or move it!  It sounds like you are doing your very best (only now that I'm an adult I have heard about the hell I put my Mum through, she hid it very well.) the biggest thing my Mum said about it was stick to your guns and have a very good support network.  I wish you all the best and I'm sure one day when your daughters crazy hormones calm down you two will be the best of friends! Big Hugs!
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pen on June 22, 2011, 11:02:37 PM
Hey Bcos, welcome to the site. If you haven't already done so, please take a minute to read the Forum Agreement under Open Me First at the top of the home page. Your post is fine, we just like everyone to know the policies of the forum.

Thanks for giving a lot of moms some hope. You sound like a great daughter now!
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Nana on June 22, 2011, 11:45:39 PM
Welcome to this Forum Bcos....I agree with Pen....you sound a very good daughter now....sometimes it is only a transition time and we go back to be what we have always been.  I also remember having a bad relationship with my mom in my teens....I was not rebelious but Iwas very hard to pleased....and I was driving my mom nuts....she just put me in my place a couple of times.  Later on, we were very good friends until the last day of her life....

DVG...dont lose hope.....and very good attitude....you were someone valuable before being a mother (just as she is) and you will continue being a whole person...with or without her.

I wish you luck .....they are young DVG...have a lot of learning to do.

Love 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Bcos on June 23, 2011, 05:02:58 AM
Thank you ladies, I wasn't sure how my post would be received! Dvg my mum and I are the best of friends now, I threaten to cut her off and told her I hated her how many times and the thought of it now makes me sick, I can't imagine life without her, she is my best friend. I really hope this gives you hope in dealing with a teenager. But please set boundaries with her, if you're paying then you're the boss! She is only young and has a lot to learn but at this stage in her life she thinks she knows everything ... My husband has told me he doesn't want daughters because he thinks they will be like me as teenagers ... And I think I agree with him... Please feel free to email me personally if you want to deal with a horrible teenager like I was! Again sending you big hugs! Xx
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on June 23, 2011, 08:49:43 AM
Welcome!

I, too, was the "bad" one. Kicked out of Girl Scouts and church choir for insubordination. Sent to the Principal's office(s) for the same thing. Lots of problems for my parents and probably sleepless nights. I played in school instead of working and my grades where a horror. (Both of my sisters were wonderful.)

Fast forward to when my mother was gone and my dad was 85 and alone, who do you suppose brought him to WA and made a home for him because neither of my sister cared? Yup! Every once in a while he would try to regale my DH with stories about what a difficult child I had been and DH, a psychologist, would laugh and say..."How many times was she picked up for shoplifting? Oh, none? How many fights did she get into? None? Did she get a STD or have an illegitimate baby? No? Expelled from school? Not that either? Was she into alcohol and drugs? Never? Hummmm..." And then we would all laugh!  ;)

My dad was the most wonderful man and he thought I walked on water...eventually.  :D
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pooh on June 23, 2011, 09:54:47 AM
And here I was Luise picturing you as the meek, goody two-shoes, as a child and teenager.....NOT!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on June 23, 2011, 10:13:59 AM
 ;D ;D ;D

I know this sounds self-serving, because it is, but sometimes those of us who march to our own drummers don't turn out all that bad.  8)
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: elsieshaye on June 23, 2011, 12:32:52 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on June 23, 2011, 10:13:59 AM
;D ;D ;D

I know this sounds self-serving, because it is, but sometimes those of us who march to our own drummers don't turn out all that bad.  8)

That's what I'm hoping for with my son.  He definitely has his own drummer (heck, he's got a whole orchestra in there), and I can see how a lot of his currently-eventful qualities will really serve him well later in life.  I gotta say, I have never once worried that he wouldn't be able to take care of himself or have an interesting life.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on June 23, 2011, 03:35:26 PM
Thank you all so much.

Pooh, you're right, I'm going to have to set boundaries.  There is a mismatch in that I'm a pacifist and she is very stubborn and self-willed.  After the last blowup, there was another one and stepson screamed at me for over two hours.  I'm beginning to look at the behavior of both of them as emotionally abusive.  It's reached the point where I can barely function.

Rose, thank you for the links.  I need all the help I can get.

Ruth, I so hope you are right and that she will turn around, but have to be prepared that she won't.

Bcos, God bless you!  Thank you so much for giving me hope that some day my daughter will act differently.  You are a wonderful person now, and I'm so happy for you and your mom that you get along so well now.  There have been times when D and I get along well (she's vented to me when SS is awful to her) but other times when we don't get along at all. 

I'm also trying to hide how much D is hurting me.  So far, she hasn't seen me cry over her, though I have shed many tears.  So glad I found this site because this isn't something I can share with many people.  With all the happy families out there, I feel like such a failure.  I did my best an maybe it wasn't enough.

It seems that sometimes the tears will never end.  Right now neither of them is talking to me, and I'm avoiding them.  The coldness is better than another major blowup.

Although I don't have insurance, I'm thinking of finding a family counselor and going myself.  I feel I can't take any more.  The two of them act as if nothing had happened - they only screamed at me for hours.  Stepson called me stupid for not getting her a cheaper apartment and a car rather than one with access to public transit.  The way I'm feeling now, D can go back to the dorm next year or drop out.  I am so exhausted from being treated like dirt or else like an ATM machine.

Trying to practice unconditional love, but not accept unacceptable, emotionally abusive behavior.  It's a fine line.

Luise, I don't think what you did as a kid was so horrible - it's the total disrespect, namecalling, yelling, pure hatred, and disappearing act that is killing.  If only it didn't have to be like this.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on June 23, 2011, 05:27:15 PM
You have to remember that was in the early 1940s. It was horrible then.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Ruth on June 24, 2011, 08:21:27 AM
DETACH YOURSELF FROM THEIR TEMPER TANTRUMS.  If we allow our mean and spiteful behavior, this isn't love.  You are not getting this advice from someone who hasn't walked in your shoes and knows firsthand what a high cost their is to terminating spiteful and abusive communication, and how everything alarm is going off in your head to 'keep on trying to reason with and get your point across to them of love and concern'.  But you have to step away and close the door to all that drama and don't allow it to pull you in again, because when you do you are giving the power to those who need to learn the appropriate and respectful way to treat others - to draw you in and reduce you to less than you want to be.  I'm going through the same challenge, but I won't keep falling in that same hole. 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on June 25, 2011, 09:07:09 PM
Thanks, Ruth, that is something I really need to do.  Been going to Al-anon, and they talk about "detaching with love" which is so hard to do! 

There was another blowup today.  Stepson and my mother got into it about something really stupid, and now he's talking about leaving, which would be fine with me (I don't need his tantrums or his drinking), but D will be going with him.  D got involved in the argument and again she and my mother said very hurtful things to each other, things that are completely unacceptable.  My mother threatened to cut D off (she is helping a lot with D's overexpensive apartment) and D threatened to burn down the house.  I doubt if either of them meant it. 

I've told both of them that it would be better if they didn't even talk to one another if they can't get along.  This time when I tried to stop the arguing, and D told me to go away, I did.

I'm responsible for a very needy elderly mother and a daughter who has no respect for anyone in her family, except her half brother.  Being responsible for two people who say they hate each other is tearing me apart.  Only thing to do is detach from their tantrums, and remember that I am an individual and I have a life apart from this family!
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pen on June 25, 2011, 10:00:48 PM
Dvg, you've certainly got a lot going on there. Even if the threats on both sides are overly-dramatic & not likely to occur, it hurts your soul to have to listen to them. I hope you have an MP3 player or some other way to drown that out!

Do you suppose your DD would be less argumentative if her DB weren't right there for support, and vice versa? One day perhaps they'll realize that they are playing off each other and have no one else in their lives. At some point being that close to a sib at the expense of other relationships is limiting, if not a bit weird, IMO.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on June 25, 2011, 11:33:10 PM
Thanks, Pen.   Yes, it does hurt my soul to listen to them say such hurtful, hateful things to each other.  DD and my mother used to get along so well, and I remember happier times when they really loved one another.  My mother's health is not good, and I've tried to tell DD that one day she will regret her hurtful words.  Right now DD is so angry she is not thinking straight, but my mother is so hurt that she is at the point where she says she wants nothing to do with DD.  She doesn't mean it but doesn't deserve this pain, and it's possible that her feelings for DD have changed forever.  I hope not but have to reconcile myself to that, and that I can do little, if anything, to repair their relationship.  If my mother dies before DD changes her attitude and behavior, DD will have regrets, but she is so focused on DB that she does not understand that.  When DB and my mother argue, DD takes his side no matter what, and if he wants to take off, she will follow him unquestioningly. 

Definitely DD would be less mean and argumentative if her DB were not there.  They only met two years ago and I think they are close in an unhealthy way.  You're right that it is limiting to be so close to him at the expense of everyone else.  She hasn't even seen her closest friends since he's been here, and I'm afraid she will lose them if she keeps this up.

I wish the two of them would have a falling out so that they could move on with their lives.  You're right that at this rate, they will have no one else in their lives.  I'll always be there for DD, but her DB and I are not related.  I was very fond of him, but his recent behavior has been leading me to detach from him.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: lancaster lady on June 26, 2011, 01:15:07 AM
DVG ....... I'm afraid that if this was my home ,I would have to take charge and if they didn't like the rules ,tough ,they know where the door is .I would not stand for that behaviour for one second ! For someone to disrespect my mother and myself while staying under my roof ? No way !. To reach the age your mother is and be  spoken to in that way somehow to me is so wrong it makes my blood boil ......  There would only be one route for this pair .......adios !
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on June 26, 2011, 07:52:22 AM
I'm with LL. Send them both on their way and see how well they do with being responsible for themselves. Neither is a dependent child and that's where our work ends. We can be interested and supportive...but that's not "responsible." I am 84 and my son is not responsible for me. He is my grown son and I am not responsible for him. We are two adults out in the adult world. Friends, because being friends suits us both. (He's our Webmaster on WWU.) I live in a "continuous care retirement community." When I need more help, it is part of the package and it is very inexpensive. Start looking at where you can create some boundaries and then start rebuilding a life of your own. Otherwise your identity will become being responsible for those who are denying responsibility and you will get so enmeshed you will find it harder and harder to get out. That's my take.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pooh on June 26, 2011, 09:48:04 AM
Quote from: dvg on June 25, 2011, 11:33:10 PM
  Right now DD is so angry she is not thinking straight, but my mother is so hurt that she is at the point where she says she wants nothing to do with DD.

I am with LL and Luise.  You need to send them both packing.  I hope you are not using DD's anger as an excuse for her behavior (in the sentence I quoted).  You can't just ignore it and it will go away at this point.  I am afraid it is going to continue until you put your foot down and tell them to follow the rules, be respectful or leave.  I know you don't want to do this, but I have a feeling that they know this about you and are using it against you.  I also feel like DD knows that know matter what she says or do, that you are going to give her the money for the apartment and college.  Had one of my sons spoke to my Mother in a continueing, disrespectful way such as that, I would have helped them pack.

Sorry, I'm not telling you what to do as you have to find your own way, but I see nothing but continuation of this until you do something.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Star on June 29, 2011, 01:13:35 PM
Hello DVG,
I can totally empathise with what you are going through, as my two lovelies have put me an immense amount of hell, and yet I am an awful mother and they have cut me off for the past 5 years. After years of banging my head on the wall, today was the turning point,j following a massage, I discovered, if I keep trying to chase after them and banging my head it will continue to hurt, and they will just dig their heels even more and feel justified in their treatment of me.  I agree with the other ladies especially LL, your daughter needs you and her grandmother far more than she is letting on, clearly she is too proud to admit it.

Utilise this time to back off and look after yourself, she will be back.Sending you big hugs. :) :)
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on July 02, 2011, 02:47:39 PM
Thanks everyone.  They are gone... said they would be back in a few days but I have no idea when.  I'm just hoping that DD will be back in time to get ready for college.  She feels that she has to take care of SS.  It's becoming apparent that SS is trying, for whatever reason, to turn DD against me.  Part of the problem is that he is on drugs again and paranoid, accusing me of holding out on money for DD.  Since they've been gone, she sent some nasty texts, but then also sent me some about how worried she is about him and apologizing for what she said... she said she had to because of him.

She does know that I won't cut off her college money no matter what, but don't think she realizes yet that I won't be as generous with extras if she treats me and her grandmother this way.  I'm afraid it will be a disaster if SS stays with her while she goes to college and hope and pray that he changes his mind.  He's not a bad person, but addicts and alcoholics destroy the lives of those around them, as well as their own lives, without realizing it. 

I'm going to see a family counselor because this is interfering with my ability to work.  Of course they won't go with me, but I need to do this.  So much of my time, attention, and energy has gone to family that I've lost me.

Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on July 02, 2011, 02:59:06 PM
Good for you for attending to your own health and well being. You can't help others unless you take good care of yourself. Sending love...
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pen on July 02, 2011, 03:05:30 PM
Yes, good on you for looking forward and taking care of your own needs. I hope your DD sees through her half-brother's charismatic neediness soon and realizes she doesn't have to be a caretaker to receive love and attention. It's a difficult concept for some of us!
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on July 02, 2011, 03:15:25 PM
Thanks, Luise and Pen, and it is difficult for me to see that I don't have to be their caretaker.  Hopefully DD will get tired of trying to take care of SS and focus on herself.  I'd hate to see her throw away college because she wants to take care of him. 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on July 16, 2011, 08:34:21 PM
Well, DD and SS are here for now. SS is going to follow her to college and stay in her apartment rent free and there is not a thing I can do about it.  Just now SS told me that they are going to drive down in his car and because the car will be packed full, I'm not going with them.

Fine.  He can buy furniture for her apartment too.  When they took off they slept on the floor, so they can do that too.  I'll get her a meal plan, which she can have even if she's not in the dorm, so that way I know she won't starve, but with paying for her rent, books, and food, I believe my responsibility to her is filled.  He has money, let him buy furniture.

I'll just have to say no when she wants money, that it was her decision to not put in for the dorm and there is no money for an apartment next year, so minimal furniture would be best.  She'll have to learn the hard way when he distracts her from her studies. The two of them are close in an unhealthy way.

I believe he is trying to drive her away from me and from her grandmother, and because she wants to be an independent adult, he is succeeding.  She won't be able to cut me out of her life unless he pays her tuition and rent, which he is not going to do.  I'm hoping that eventually she will have enough of it and see that she can't take care of him. 

Pen, I think she's desperate for male love and attention.  She didn't have a father in her life, and never had a real boyfriend.  There are times he's hurt her badly, but like a dog she keeps coming back for more.  I just hope she sees through him some day.

It really hurts that she will go along with him and tell me not to come help her get settled in her apartment, but guess I could take the money I would have spent on that and spend it on myself.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pen on July 16, 2011, 11:12:49 PM
Thinking of you, Dvg. Your responsibility is more than fulfilled. I'm sorry your DD is still under this boy's spell and that you have to go through so much heartache and concern for her wellbeing. You're a good, caring mom. She will see that one day, and will see her stepbrother for what he is.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: lancaster lady on July 17, 2011, 03:14:56 AM
I agree with Pen .......you.have done.more  than enough with little thanks .
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Star on July 17, 2011, 04:06:17 AM
Dear DVG,

Sorry to hear that you are still experiencing problems with your daughter,  take comfort from the fact that you have done all you can, start taking care of yourself otherwise you run the risk of getting run down and becoming poorly. She needs to learn to respect you, and in time will realise that the person that really was there for her,loved and supported her through some difficult times was YOU.

Sending hugs. :)
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on July 17, 2011, 07:51:42 AM
Thanks, Pen, Lancaster Lady, and Star.  I'm going to see the counselor again tomorrow.  When I went to see her the first time, she said what everyone here has said, to send them packing.

I've done my best.  If that's not good enough, well, I tried. 

It is damaging my health, and I can't get work done on an important project for my job because of the stress.  DD and SS have had their ups and downs, and there were a couple of times when she was fed up with him, but she keeps going back to him.  She forgives him everything, no matter what he says or does, and keeps coming back for more.  I do think he is trying to drive her away from me.   

She also blames me for all the emotional pain she is in, and she still refuses to get any counseling.  She has threatened suicide, and I can't tell if it's drama (she's done that before when she didn't get her way) or if she means it.  I know that she is very depressed but she refuses to go to counseling or consider medication.

I hope some day she will realize that I've been there for her all along, but that will probably be a long time coming. 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on July 17, 2011, 08:10:41 AM
It her "path." Sometimes it is hard to see that and let go. Time to focus on your "path", which isn't really about her once your job is done. That's where many of us have a problem. Getting that we did what we started out to do and that they need to take it from here. No more helping them up and fixing "owies." It was once absolutely necessary and now it impedes progress. Sending love...
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Star on July 17, 2011, 08:21:18 AM
Hi DVG,

I agree with what Luise is saying totally, although it is very hard to do.Your daughter has some growing up to do and some tough lessons to learn. You owe it to yourself to look after yourself, without your health you have nothing remember that. It may well help to write down on paper how this whole situation makes you feel, including your daughters action, write them down, don't bother re reading the note, just burn it. Time for a fresh start for you.

Hugs
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on July 17, 2011, 08:35:51 AM
Yup...simple but not easy...
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pooh on July 18, 2011, 11:34:33 AM
Quote from: dvg on July 16, 2011, 08:34:21 PM
Well, DD and SS are here for now. SS is going to follow her to college and stay in her apartment rent free and there is not a thing I can do about it. 

I'm being dense here but I don't understand why you think there is nothing you can do about it?  If she was paying for all of it, sure...nothing you could do.  With you paying for the apartment, food, school, etc....you do have say-so.  Just because she's a legal adult, as long as you are footing the bill, I would definately have some say.  I would be telling her that you are paying for her an apartment, and if YOU choose to let him stay there, he needs to pay you half the rent.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pooh on July 18, 2011, 11:35:05 AM
Sorry dvg, it just angers me that they are taking such advantage of your good will. 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: lancaster lady on July 18, 2011, 03:28:08 PM
DVG:

I think that if you stop paying  for any extras she will turn to him for money .
How long before he gets fed up ? .Also what will he do while your Dd attends classes ? I can't see him
hanging round for long , he will get bored hopefully and move on .
Stick to your guns and stop any more extra funding .Use this time to grown stronger , you might need that extra strength
for the next round .
I agree with Pooh ....ask him for half the rent , might take some of the shine of this freebie .
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on July 24, 2011, 10:00:14 AM
Thanks, everyone.  LL, I hope you're right and that he will get bored and move on.  I'm afraid that she will get caught up in his drama and that will derail her studies, and she's done so well.

An even bigger fear is that she has talked about suicide.  Every few weeks they get in an argument, and he says things that really hurt her.  It's happened several times... he hurts her, she says she's "through" with him, and then he's nice to her again and all is forgiven.  It's like she's addicted to him.  After the last argument, she threatened suicide and turned her anger on me too, saying that it's all my fault for bringing her into this world where she can only be miserable.

She won't go to counseling, which she really needs, and I can't force her, so I don't know what to do. 

How I wish I hadn't given in to her threats to quit college if she couldn't have an apartment.  I'd feel so much better if she were going to live in the dorm where there would be people who would keep an eye on her.  My big fear is that she might carry through on her threat.   I could live with estrangement, though of course it would hurt like hell, but if she killed herself I would not survive.  I'm going to suggest that she put the number in her phone.

Since I already agreed to pay the rent, I can't ask him for half, but if she wants an apartment again after this lease runs out, she needs to find one that will cost the same as a dorm room, and that means roommates.  I doubt if he'd be willing to pay anything.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pen on July 24, 2011, 10:09:11 AM
Is the lease up at a time when dorm rooms are available? Is there anyway you can insist that she move into a dorm rather than another apartment by making your continued support of her education contingent on it? I understand your concern and agree more supervision is necessary, but better by a RA than by random roomies IMO.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on July 24, 2011, 10:59:32 AM
The lease isn't up until the end of spring semester, so I have to put up with this for the full academic year.  For next year, I could tell her that she has to move back into the dorm, but then it will be the same thing again... she'll threaten to drop out of college if she has to go to the dorm, which was how she wound up with an apartment this year - I gave in to her emotional blackmail.  What I can do is tell her that she has to find housing for what a dorm room would cost, which would mean roommates.  I'd prefer an RA too, and hopefully she won't be able to find anything for the cost of a dorm.  But if I do that, I'll have to live with the consequences if she decides to drop out and follow the half brother wherever he goes when the lease is up.  They can put in for a dorm room early in the spring semester.

I never imagined that parenting a young adult would be such a nightmare. She was such a great kid before she met him.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: amflautist on July 24, 2011, 01:09:38 PM
Quote from: dvg on July 24, 2011, 10:00:14 AM
Since I already agreed to pay the rent, I can't ask him for half, but if she wants an apartment again after this lease runs out, she needs to find one that will cost the same as a dorm room, and that means roommates.  I doubt if he'd be willing to pay anything.

Dvg, please rethink what it means to be the mother.  You need to make the tough, adult decisions she seems to be incapable of making.  Loving your DD sometimes means making a decision that she doesn't like and won't agree to.  When my DD was growing up, I often made tough decisions that she and her friends and her friends' parents didn't agree with.  Decisions like not allowing her to go to parties when the parents weren't home.  (I always called the parents directly to ask if they were going to be there to supervise - didn't rely on DD and her friends to always know or tell me the truth.  DD and her friends hated me for checking!)  Decisions like not allowing here to go to a coed sleepover at age 14, even though all her friends were going and the parents were going to be home.

I believe you DO need to decide who is allowed to stay in that apartment - you know, the one you are paying rent on.  If the proposed occupants are not in the best interests of your daughter's education, you need to say no.  Half the rent isn't so much the issue as the responsibility for providing an environment where DD can get her work done.  As long as your daughter needs your financial support -- and here it seems she also needs your adult advice -- ....

Dvg, I'm trying to encourage you to join the ranks of tough moms.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on July 24, 2011, 01:18:57 PM
And one of the most beautiful things in the world is Tough Love.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: amflautist on July 24, 2011, 01:27:13 PM
Back again with more unsolicited advice.  Dvg, I don't want you to think I'm 'on your case', so don't read any farther unless you want to. 

This advice comes from listening to my DH (a professor) discuss problems he and his colleagues come across with students, and the way they are trained to respond.  Every couple of years a student will come into his office and start to discuss his personal problems.  Often family, often other students.  Sometimes the student is near suicide.  But in every case, the professor is trained to send the student to university counseling, and to check up to see that the student goes!

Based on what you have said, I see real problems ahead for your DD, and if it were me, I would do the following:  I would find out the name of the professor who is your DD's adviser.  Every student has an adviser.  I would call or go see the adviser and explain the situation.  The mere fact that your DD has threatened suicide is a warning that must not be ignored or dismissed.  Particularly because the problems are likely to get a lot worse if SS moves in with your DD.  Please get a university professor or counselor involved in this situation.  Let them help you.  They have the ability to get your DD placed in a dorm if they think it necessary.  At the very least, she will have an adult at the university to go to if things go sour with SS.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on July 24, 2011, 01:33:11 PM
We all give advice here. It is never unsolicited, it's why we come to WWU and open out hearts. Once in a while we stumble over judgment because we know the difference. Advice, suggestions, shared experience is love.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: amflautist on July 24, 2011, 01:36:48 PM
I offer myself as scapegoat.  When you call your DD's professor, tell him you were urged (forced!) to make the call by the wife of a professor from a major (top 10) large (30,000 students) university - one that has suicides every year.  Tell that professor the nosey wife (me) MADE you do it when she heard that your DD had threatened suicide. 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: amflautist on July 24, 2011, 02:06:41 PM
P.S.  Me again.  I've been rereading your posts.  You ask when is the right time to reveal to DD that you had drug problems before you were pregnant with her.  My answer is possibly never.  Certainly not now.  She is not mature enough to handle that information. 

However, I think it might be relevant to mention to your daughter's professor, when you call him, that her father is bipolar. 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on July 28, 2011, 10:24:13 AM
Thank you, amflautist.  Luise is right, there is no such thing as unsolicited advice here.  I post here because I want advice!

That's a great idea to get in touch with her advisor - if I can find out who that person is.  She did tell me last semester that there is a professor she's had a class with who she really likes, and she's taking a class with him again, so if she won't tell me who her advisor is, I could contact him.

It's so hard to tell if she threatens suicide to get her way or if she is actually depressed.  I'm encouraging her to go to the college counseling center, but she is refusing to go.

SS is definitely moving in with her.  I'm hoping that she focuses on her studies and he gets bored and leaves, but of course there's no guarantee of that happening.  I'm trapped in an apartment lease for this year, but next year I can get tougher.  She'll threaten to drop out of school, like she did this time around, if she can't have an apartment.  The problem with giving her an ultimatum is that I have to be prepared to live with the consequences - what if she did drop out of school and followed SS and his drug and punk street lifestyle?  Then I would blame myself.

I started seeing a family counselor, and she said exactly the same thing you did about when, or if, to tell DD about my past.  She said definitely not now, and if I do, only in general terms, no specifics are necessary. 

Thank you!  No one ever told me parenting gets harder when they become so-called adults.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on July 28, 2011, 10:41:35 AM
When we decide we want a "baby" and we find we are going to have one...we picture a "baby." LOL!

Then here comes my DS, 6 foot 2, looking down on me from great heights and telling me I am the world's worst mother! That's a whole new ball game! The score? Three strikes and you're out and I didn't even know I was up to bat.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Ruth on July 28, 2011, 10:47:15 AM
It appears to me that you are being held hostage??  I believe we, the parent who is providing support to an adult child,  have the right to change the rules when we need to, or feel it is in our child's best interest, or even in my own best interest in some circumstances.  People are very good at manipulating with fear tactics (i'll quit school if you don't give me what I want - I'll kill myself if I don't get what I want, etc.) forgive me if I'm out of line as I'm not a psychologist or an academic, but I've had a lot of experience with being manipulated and intimidated this way.  Maybe I'd just call the bluff and say , fine, its your future if you want to drop out of school and support yourself flipping burgers or soaking your swollen feet at the end of a day standing at a cash register, then go for it.   College students are not children.   They are adults and need to be held accountable to adult standards.  They can smell fear and sadly it can work for them, but caving in isn't sending the message of personal accountability that they need in order to be responsible for their own decisions.    Its really hard not to cave in, and much easier to cave it and feel like you're 'a good Mom'.  You have to feel like crap when you refuse to cave in.  Maybe working a year out in the real world and support herself would be a great life lesson and could result in going back to school with a new winning attitude.  who knows.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pooh on July 28, 2011, 10:58:17 AM
I totally agree with Ruth!  As far as blaming yourself?  For what?  I know it's easy to feel guilty in situations like this, but it's soooo not you who's to blame if she does those things.  She has only herself to blame as you are offering her every opportunity to fix her life.  If she came to you today and said, "Give me a thousand dollars or I'm going to start doing meth", would you try to find a dollars for her?  Hopefully you would tell her that you were not giving her a thousand dollars and you hope she didn't ruin her life like that, but it was on her if she did.

I'm not trying to be mean either, but she is truly manipulating you.  I would be willing to bet she knows how kind and nice you are, and knows you will give in and she's using that at every opportunity.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: amflautist on July 28, 2011, 11:39:43 AM
I agree with Ruth and Pooh.  It is nuts to think that your DD can study and keep up her grades with SS in the apt too.  So let's figure this out together. 

1. You probably can't monitor whether or not SS is staying there.  You probably can't squeeze him out by making him pay rent, etc.  In any such circumstance DD and SS will probably lie to you, and you have no way of obtaining the truth.  So ultimatums about SS won't work.

2. The issue is whether DD goes to class and maintains her grades.  You can't monitor whether she goes to class, but you can base your financial support on her grades.  What grades has she been getting up to this point?  Perhaps you should base full financial support on (a) a full load of courses, and (b) a minimum grade in those courses.  Given what you have said previously about her ability, I believe that minimum ought to be a B!! 

3. The issue of her apartment and your paying for it.  You have signed a contract.  Doesn't mean DD has to live there.  You can always sublet to another deserving student.

Mom, you are paying for her education.  Set up some rules about use of your money.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Rose799 on July 28, 2011, 01:11:41 PM
I agree with Ruth & Pooh & amflautist.  I learned that lesson the hard way, dvg.  We would have done most anything to get dd back in school after she quit & moved in with her bf.   Once she did start back, we footed school, car payments, ins, etc., while she took her grant money & moved in with another friend.   For a moment, we felt a sigh of relief when she graduated, but then she moved on to the big league, holding gc hostage.  Your dd changed the rules by having SS move in with her.  I see no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to bend them, as well.   Choose your battles; dvd, as difficult as it is, back-peddling is sooo much harder. 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: elsieshaye on July 28, 2011, 03:04:19 PM
Realistically, if she wants to drop out and do drugs, she'll do that whether you provide her with an apartment or not.  Right now, she's got an apartment, and no consequences.  What she does is on her in any case, positive or negative - you can't influence her choices to the point of being responsible for them, even though it's a mom's curse to feel responsible for everything they think or do that doesn't turn out right.  But seriously, speaking as someone who was shielded from the consequences of my own actions for way too long, and then paid doubly hard when I had to learn without the option of going to my parents (because they'd both passed away at that point), it's better for her and for you to let her fail now while she still has a chance to climb her way out of it.  Some of us only learn by doing, unfortunately.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on September 18, 2011, 03:36:28 AM
Thank you all so much.  Sorry it's taken me so long to reply.  I've been in a deep, paralyzing depression as a result of all of this, to the point that I'm barely able to do my work and now fear that my job could be in jeopardy if I don't pull it together somehow.  There is no pain like that from family.  There are days I feel I just can't go on.

She is holding me hostage.  She's learned that so far she has had her way on everything by manipulating me, threatening to drop out of school and cut off all contact with me if I don't do what she wants, and she knows I'm so afraid of her doing that and so I cave in.  In retrospect when she demanded an apartment, I should have said if you want to drop out of school because you can't have your way on this, then that is your adult decision.  She likes to say she is an adult, well, adults have to face the consequences of their bad choices.  It's hard that she is much more strong willed than I am.  There were posts on another thread about genetic influences, and I see that.  SS and DD both have a mean streak, and they can both be both very nice and kind and very cruel.  SS has been mean to DD several times, and when he is, she comes to me for emotional support, but keeps coming back for more.  The counselor I've been seeing says that they have a very sick relationship.

She very good at manipulating me.  She knows I haven't said no yet when she pulls my strings, with threatening to use drugs and drop out of school.  But if I don't stop caving in now, she'll continue with that pattern.  Just yesterday when I said I am paying for this apartment, so I should be able to come and see her, she emailed back that if I did that she would leave and never talk to me again.  If she really means a threat like that, then I guess her education doesn't mean that much to her.

We had our ups and downs before she met SS, but overall she was a great kid.  His influence on her has changed her whole personality.

The reason I wanted to go to see her is that SS is causing a lot of problems already.  He had promised her that he would take some community college classes and that they would be studying together and wouldn't bring his friends over except on the weekend.  Well, she told me that he has been bringing them over all the time, and let them stay the night when she didn't want them there.  They drink and do drugs, and I'm sure that she is doing drugs too now.  She's complained to me that he never cleans up after himself and neither do his friends.  (I told her that I was the maid when he was here - I cleaned up after him to avoid arguments and if I didn't do it, then it wouldn't get done, and told her that when he was with her, she would be the maid).  He manipulates her just like she manipulates me - he knows she wants him around, so she told me he told her that if she didn't let his friends stay, he would leave.  I told her to think about herself and not throw away everything she worked so hard for, and let him go.  She let them stay.  She's not setting any boundaries with him.  He has plenty of money - more than I have - but contributes nothing, and she complained to me about that too. 

Then a few days ago, he got drunk and angry and punched a hole in a door.  At that point she was ready for him to leave but he is still there.  I offered to come down, or contact the manager to get him to leave, but she didn't want that.  I'm afraid for her safety.  First a hole in the door, then I'm afraid next time he might attack her.  He's a trained fighter and he could literally kill her.  Some texts she sent me indicate that she's afraid of him.

She was literally crying that he desecrated her home, but she won't kick him out.  She cried that he doesn't care about her (and I believe that is true) and at one point she said she was "done" with him, but apparently they're getting along just fine now, so next thing she'll be telling me that she's "through" with me, as she has before.

At one point she wanted me to send her money for a hotel room so she could get out.  I told her to go to a hotel, then have them call me and I would pay for it over the phone with a credit card - I didn't want to send money because I thought she might spend it on drugs.  Then she said to send money so she could get out the way she wanted - she mentioned going to another city and staying with a friend.  I told her I would not give her money for that - if she wants to come here for a weekend, to get away, I will pay for that, but not for her to run off.  Then she stopped asking. 

She got so distraught she asked me to call the college to see about dropping out for personal reasons.  I told her to go to the counseling center and also to talk to her professors, that they would be understanding and work with her to salvage the semester.  I do think that when the deadline to withdraw approaches, I'll remind her of that and tell her that a withdrawal looks better than a string of Fs.  If she withdraws, she could still salvage her academic career, although not at this college because she would lose her scholarship. 

That's not until the end of October, and with all the ups and downs I don't even know if she'll be talking to me then.

After the door incident, I seriously thought about calling the police when I knew she wasn't there to get him out.

She admits she has a love-hate relationship with him.  She's gone through cycles several times now where he is mean to her, she comes crying to me, then she comes running back to him and is nasty to me, telling me to leave her alone.

She also admitted that she's already having trouble with one of her classes.  I suggested she get tutoring, and she says she did.  What she wants to do will require post-college education, so if she does not keep her grades up, she will lose the opportunity for that.   

SS tries to drive her and me apart. When she was off with him before school started, she sent me some very nasty texts - and then later said she was sorry, that she didn't mean them, that she didn't hate me, but said that because he made her.  I don't know why he wants to drive her away from me - I've done more for him than his own mother has.  I gave him a place to stay when he was homeless last winter (before he got the huge settlement) and helped him get his GED.

Looking ahead, assuming she does stay in school, I don't have to get her an apartment next year.  I can tell her that if she wants to stay in school, she can live in the dorm (or find shared housing with other students, or rent a room in a house, something that will cost the same as a dorm).  I am not going to pay for her to live with SS.  If he wants her to live with him, and she wants to stay in school, he can rent an apartment.  He's a parasite - with all his money, she says he's not even buying her food.  Good thing I got her a plan that lets her get some meals on campus.

I'll put money on her student ID card so she can buy food on campus, but I am not going to send her any money because I don't know how it will be used.

It looks like I'll have to prepare myself for her cutting me off.  But maybe she will have to learn the hard way.  How do you let go? I've given my whole heart and being to her.

Thank you all for being here.  You are a lifeline.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: hurting2011 on September 18, 2011, 04:25:09 AM
DVG, Hang in there. My daughter up until she started her senior year in high school had always did everything right. Pretty and pleasing... She got very involved with a young man in her freshman year that was a year older than her. She was so serious about the relationship by the time she turned a senior. She loved this young man. She spent most of her junior and senior year crying because of things he said and did. No amount of talking could talk her out of this situation. I told her she had cried more in her young life than I had in my whole 48 years - no way could this be love.

She ended up leaving home on Christmas Eve...with her boyfriend. She had called our local police department and said she was afraid of her father. Never had he touched her or disciplined her inappropriately. She was 17 and they came to our house  - the boyfriend was waiting at the road to pick her up.  We had never been so hurt!!  I did a lot of praying. Praying that I could accept whatever my daughter decided to do with her life and praying that I could still tell her we loved her and she could come home whenever she wanted.

She came back after her boyfriend was getting ready to leave to go to Japan - he ended up joining the Airforce. This young man wanted us to sign for our daughter to get married. He wanted her to move to Japan. I told her, I would not sign for her to get married- when she turned 18 if she wanted to she was free to make that decision - only because the law says she can.  I was still hopefully this young man could get his stuff together and joining the Airforce was a good thing but I still was afraid he would hurt her- physically and mentally.  Well, she found out he got another girl pregnant- the boyfriend denied it. He had quite a reputation...so patiently I waited. The day my daughter got the news about the birth...she finally saw the light!! She cried and cried and I came home from work and held her while she cried. All cried out, I told  her go wash your face and we will try to figure things out. That day, which happened to be her Daddy's (my husband's) birthday - BEST present ever. She filled out her college application and hasn't looked back since.  The young man hurt her and I think she really loved him but he couldn't love her the way she needed and she would have had a pretty unhappy life had they married. Never have I prayed  so hard.
We have had to work at our relationship.Today we are closer than even before. Things changed the day she left home and they changed when she moved back. It was a life lesson for all of us but particularly for her.

Unfortunately, we are going through some things with our son...at the age of 31.  His outburst has kind of blindsided us because it literally "just happened".

I pray that he too will one day come around. Until then I am just hopeful.So...hang in there your dd could see the light yet.

Hugs to you and your mom!
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pen on September 18, 2011, 07:51:39 AM
DVG, I understand how difficult it must be to stop enabling your DD and SS, but IMO you must. Your livelihood and health are on the line! They have made their choices, you've given them plenty of chances to improve their behavior to no avail. It's all about you now, please please please stop caving in!
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on September 18, 2011, 09:32:31 AM
You have "given your life away." When we do that we "cease to be" in many ways. Your life is yours. No one can "hold you hostage" unless you either agree or there is no you. My take on this is that we need to rescue ourseves first and foremost and then see what we can do to create supportive relationships built on equality. When devalue ourselves...others follow suit. Sending love...
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pooh on September 18, 2011, 10:03:42 AM
Hang in there DVG but you have to break the cycle.  You are the only one that can.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on September 18, 2011, 01:48:08 PM
Thank you all, again.  This hurts so much and I'm losing the ability to function because of the heartbreak.  I did the best I could but it wasn't good enough.

Luise, it makes sense that by being a doormat and caving in to her, that encourages her to devalue me.  It will be hard to say no when she demands an apartment again or she'll drop out of school (she'll try the same thing again) but it's past time to draw the line.

I've decided that SS will not be allowed in the house again.  If that means DD won't come back here, then I have to accept that.  I don't ever want to see SS again.  He's succeeding in driving a wedge between DD and me, after all I've done for him.  Maybe if DD sees that I'm letting him go, she will get the message.  They are brother and sister but this has all the hallmarks of an abusive relationship - he says cruel things to her, punches holes in the wall, she gets hurt and angry and says she is "done" with him (just as she has said she's "done" with me), then he is super nice and she forgives everything and seems to think everything's fine.

I forgive him, but that does not mean I want him in my house, or in my life for that matter.  Of course she will always be welcome to come back, but it will have to be without him. 

Hurting2011, I'm so glad your DD came around and sorry you're going through it with your son.  Sometimes it seems the pain of parenting never ends. 

Today I looked at some old pictures of her and what a sweet, delightful child she was.  Maybe it is time to grieve the loss of the relationship I once had with her.  Being "nice" to her has not saved the relationship, it has only lost me.

Do you think I should just not communicate with her until she makes the first move?  I asked her to please respond to an email so I would know she was OK, that I was worried for her safety because I'm afraid that with SS it would be the door first, then her.  What I got back was to stop emailing and texting, that it was annoying and she didn't have time for it.  I'd also said that since I am paying the rent, I should be able to come and see her (SS brings his "friends" over whenever he wants and she goes along with it).

She answered that if I came there, she was leaving and never talking to me again. 

But when she is angry or hurt over how he mistreats her, she expects me to always be there for her.  She knows that no matter how she treats me like dirt, I won't turn my back on her.  But I can and will stop giving her money.

I don't know how else to break the cycle except by not giving her money and preparing myself for her dropping out of school.

I'll have no way of knowing how she is doing in school until the end of the semester unless she tells me - and even then maybe not, because she could revoke access to her grades.  If she does that, do you think I should refuse to pay for next year until I see her grades? If she's on drugs with SS it's possible she could try to live off me while partying with him.

I've been praying about this - and begging God that if there is reincarnation, please next time let me not be in a family.  There were great joys, and I will always love her, but the pain is so great.

When she's in a receptive mood - there may be more of these cycles next time he emotionally abuses her - maybe then I can tell her that I can't take any more, so whether or not she stays in school is her decision and I've given up trying to influence her.  She knows that if she throws away this opportunity, there will not be another like it - but dropping out would be better than flunking out.  It's up to her.  I will tell her that if she drops out and runs off (or if she goes off again with SS over the summer) I will pay for her cell phone and a bus ticket home when she's ready, but nothing else.  If she wants to be with her half brother, he has more money than I do - let him support her.  (She has complained about how he spends money on his friends but nothing on her - he doesn't even buy food for the place after he promised he would). 

It floors me that, even after all her texts (which I kept) about how he has no respect for her, and after he's been so cruel, she's back to thinking he's wonderful again.  She forgives him everything and me nothing.  Sorry for venting - I have nowhere else to go.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on September 18, 2011, 02:20:57 PM
You are in the right place. Never forget that. And the mext move (for you) is to get that what she thinks and does is about her, not you...and that you willnever be able make sense of the senseless. Focus on saving yourself and healing. We are ll here for you. Sending love...
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on October 04, 2011, 06:22:20 PM
Thanks.  DD has been communicating with me more - because SS has been very mean to her.  In addition to putting the hole in the door, he has been keeping her up late with his drinking, bringing his so-called friends over, and yelling at her for not keeping the place clean enough - of course, he never picks up after himself.

I've offered to go there and help her kick him out, but then she tells me that if I show up at this place - which I'm paying for - she will run off and drop out of school and I'll never see her again.

It's like she turns to me for a sympathetic ear, but then doesn't want me to do anything to get rid of SS.

I'm already bracing myself for Christmas.  SS will not be allowed here again, and she probably won't want to come unless I let him come, and I really don't want him in my house.  I'm trying to let her know that I'll be there for her, but not him.

Also bracing myself for the housing fight for next year.  I'm going to tell her that she can live in the dorm or find something that will cost the same as the dorm, which means roommates - in the dorm or with roommates SS will not be allowed there, and if she has an apartment I know she'll let SS back in, no matter how much she says she "hates" him when he is so mean to her. 

That will be the only way to keep costs down and to keep SS out.  Her "brother" has been a nightmare for me and for her, but she seems to go through these cycles of being very hurt by him and then forgiving him everything.  On the other hand, I might forgive him, but that doesn't mean I'll let him back in my house.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: lancaster lady on October 05, 2011, 12:56:40 AM
DVG:

I think you are being very patient with your DD .
I must admit if it was my DD , I would be there in a split second and have that scumbag out on his ear !!
Stick to your guns re Christmas , I wouldn't have him in my house either .
I hope she comes to her senses soon , and turfs him out ! Also I hope she is managing to keep
her studies up , otherwise it will be a waste of time and money her being there .
We jump from crisis to crisis with our kids ....I don't think it ever ends !
She is lucky to have you DVG she will realise this one day .
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: amflautist on October 05, 2011, 04:45:41 AM
Save yourself and your sanity and your job!!  You are not going to be able to support DD or anyone if you lose your job. 

Step 1.  Tell DD that you don't want to hear about her drama with SS.  It is her responsibility to kick him out and get down to work with her studies.  Also tell her that if she withdraws from school, the free apt is gone: she will be asked to vacate, and she will be evicted if she refuses.

Step 2.  When she withdraws from school, tell her that she is welcome at home without SS, but that you are not going to support her there, and that you are subletting the apt to another student.  Have her and SS evicted if they refuse to leave.

Your job is to be a good mother.  Good mothers are not doormats.  They set the standards for the family and they set good examples.

We will give you all the moral support you need. 

Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: amflautist on October 05, 2011, 05:58:12 AM
P.S.  If you are sure that illegal drugs are in the mix, tell your daughter that it is her responsibility to get rid of them.  If she doesn't, notify the landlord. 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pooh on October 05, 2011, 07:33:22 AM
Amen AM!  I totally agree.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: sesamejane on October 05, 2011, 08:44:21 AM
Yep, AmF, my thoughts exactly! 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pen on October 05, 2011, 01:34:06 PM
Well put, AM. I agree as well!
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Rose799 on October 05, 2011, 07:14:25 PM
I wish I had all of you in my life years ago!  You not only possess wisdom beyond measure; you also know how to flex your muscles when necessary.  Luise will be so proud when she reads this thread!!!  : )
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on November 03, 2011, 08:17:18 PM
Thanks to all of you.  I am so glad you are here.

I've offered repeatedly to go down there and throw him out, but she says if I do that, or if I notify the landlord, she will take off and I'll never see her again, and  I'm afraid to call her on that.  If I could be sure she wasn't there, I could call the police, but if she was there, she would be arrested along with him, and I know she would suspect I informed on them.

I have told her that next year, I will not pay for any housing arrangements that involve SS living with her - whether it's the dorm, renting a room in a house, or finding an apartment with roommates (no one would put up with SS being there).

She sometimes calls me to vent when SS is being mean to her.  He yells at her over nothing, and he won't buy any food.  She does realize that he is derailing her academics - she has had to drop a course she was failing. 

Today he took off and she was worried that he might be dead.  I listened, and then made the mistake of telling her that I understood how worried she was, that is how I feel when I don't hear from her - and she hung up on me.

She is terribly depressed and I'm afraid she might commit suicide.  She's talked about it.  If she did, I would too because I could not live with that. 

Thank you for being here.  I have nowhere else to go.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on November 03, 2011, 08:34:28 PM
Any talk about suicide even secondary is beyond the scope of this forum. You need to get some one-on-one help with this. Please follow though with that ASAP.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: lancaster lady on November 04, 2011, 01:05:58 AM
Dvg ..........I think its time to pay your D D a visit if you and her are feeling this way. You will feel better having seen her , also it will give you the chance to talk . You never know seeing you might be just what she.needs . This is what I would do .  I think.she needs you more than she realises .
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Rose799 on November 04, 2011, 07:21:56 AM
I remember your earlier posts regarding dd & ss, & I understand your concerns.  What I see though is that neither you, nor dd, are making moves to improve matters.  You're the one paying the rent & for her education.  You are ultimately responsible for what goes on in that apartment, and you do have the power to put a stop to it.  The longer this goes on, the worse it's going to be.  If I were in your shoes, I'd call her bluff.   Do what you know needs doing, for all your sakes.  Putting your foot down may even save ss in the end, no telling.    Unbeknownst to us, dd's bf was an alcoholic.   They were living together & she covered for him as best she could, until he dumped her.  They would still be together today, had dh & I put up with it.  Dd was headed for a life of misery.  She was supporting bf while we paid for her school.  Dd wasn't happy with us but she moved on, she's got her degree & is happily married now.  She knows she doesn't have to take abuse from anyone as she's fully capable of standing on her own.  Our shoulders sometimes have to be broad enough to carry the entire load, Dvg.    She may pitch a fit, as mine did, but hold your ground.   I know it feels horrible, but contrast that to how you'll feel in 10 years when she blames you for her lot in life?  You can do it, dvg, have faith in yourself & faith in your dd. 

AM gave you some great advice earlier...  Hang in there, dvg!
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on December 04, 2011, 08:32:33 PM
It's been a while since I posted - thanks for all the great advice.  I've thought about it often.  Amflautist, I especially wanted to thank you. 

The cycles have been continuing - she calls me to vent when SS is being mean to her on his drug rants, but then he's nice to her again, and she forgives him.  Once she admitted that it's like an abusive relationship.  I'm trying to talk her into going back to the counseling center - she went a few times.  She won't get rid of him.  She says she's afraid if she did, that he would ruin her life, and physically hurt her.  I want to throw him out, then again she says if I came there she'll never talk to me again. 

The latest is that now she might not come home for Christmas.  I had hoped, and expected, that she would come at least for a few days, and I told her that I would even put up with SS for a few days.  Now she says that she wants to spend all of her semester break in New York because she won't get a summer vacation because now that she dropped that class, she has to go to summer school.
 
Christmas involves my mother too - and she's been very good to DD and is going to be very hurt that DD might not come.  Plus she's getting up there in years, and this could be her last Christmas, and I know if it is, DD would regret it.  My mother sees it as DD choosing her awful half brother over her, and I understand that.  I"m really hurt and angry too.

DD says that the only way she would come is if I got her a ticket to NY, then to come here for a couple of days over Christmas, then back to NY, then back to school, which is expensive.

I don't know what to do.  Actually, at this point I don't feel like I should have to pay for her adventures in NY.  I'm tempted to tell her I'll get her a ticket to come here for Christmas but that's it, that I will not get her a ticket for NY.

She says she doesn't care about Christmas, but she sure wants presents - sent me a list of stuff she wants (I'm tempted to take the advice I gave about giving to charity instead of to ungrateful adult children). 

What complicates it is that SS will be going to NY, and I don't want her getting in the car with him.  When they drove before, he went 110 on the freeway, tailgating, and had a couple of near misses at that speed.  DD was terrified - and if I don't get her a ticket and he wrecks the car and she gets hurt, I'll feel guilty. 

What would you do? 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on December 04, 2011, 09:31:38 PM
DVG - Good to see you! First off, I would stop the "what ifs." What if she takes a plane and it crashes? What is she stays home and a tree falls on her? What ifs never end. You do whatever you do and what follows is not under your control or your fault. When I start that, (and I do), I tell myself that I'm not that important and the world doesn't revolve around me.

Secondly, I would say no. Without explanation or apology...just no, you are not going to do it. Period. Your call and that's it. Sending love...
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: lancaster lady on December 05, 2011, 12:39:51 AM
DVG ....      You are worrying yourself ill about your DD . You only get from a relationship what you put in , and your DD isn't putting  in anything ! She expects so much without anything in return . I know how much you want to see her but at what a cost ! And a list of presents ! Why give into her demands ? Who is the parent here ? Be strong and refuse everything , it may surprise her and start her thinking .jmho
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pooh on December 05, 2011, 05:20:59 AM
Good to hear from you DVG.  I agree with LL and Luise.  The only way to stop this vicious cycle she has you in, is to quit playing the game.  It's on you at this point.  It's a game, and you are letting her win.  She can't win if you remove your playing piece and let her play solitaire.  I know you love her but she is using you for what she wants and using the knowledge she has that you do love her to get her way.

Say NO to the trip and NO to the list of gifts. 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: firelight on December 05, 2011, 09:15:17 AM
dvg, I have been reading all 8 pages of threads as a result of this post and I totally understand you (welcome by the way).  I have done the same things, look at the pics, and really just mourn for a life that once was....I even have my daughter and grandbaby on my  computer background and my phone.  I am thinking of changing that.....not to forget but to move one from where I am now.  I have forced myself to decorate for Christmas, I am actually doing it!  For a minute there I thought I was going to put the tree back in it's box once I set it up.  But, I am going to put up my nativity scene shortly and focusing on that somehow lifts the heaviness somewhat in my heart.  I am finding I am getting tired of this feeling of stress and worry and tears all the time over my own situation.  Today I am having feelings of self-preservation and Luise is right, we have to save ourselves.  We mom's spent our lives providing and protecting our children.  I blamed myself for the longest and everyone keeps telling me my DD is an adult and has definitely makes her own choices, like yours.  They will have to suffer the consequences of their own poor choices.  We can be there to help pick up the pieces to an extent, but for what is going on now, we do have to save ourselves.  Try to stay busy....there are many steps to the grieving process and we just have to get through those steps.  It is the initial shock of it all that hits so hard......I, for one, am ready to try to move on.  My DD and GC are always on my mind but sometimes things are just out of our hands.  I have surrendered my loved ones to God.  I will always love them dearly, but this is a time in my DD's life that is a not so good growing experience.  Sometimes even when a bad road is staring them right in the face, they won't see it till the stare becomes a slap.  And that applies to us too.  Much love to you.  You have found a awesome community here and you are not alone! 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: firelight on December 05, 2011, 09:31:00 AM
p.s.  and Pooh is right, the only way for the game to stop is to stop playing it.  This is the first year out of many I have decided to skip my beligerent (beligerent to me) SIL's birthday (and I did) and I actually have the Christmas items in my car ready to take back to the store.  Luise said if a dog bites you, you don't give him a treat......and I like to say, "If you don't reward the puppy, he won't do the trick again."  So, we'll see what happens....I am a giver at heart (as I see many of the women on here are) so for me not to do it is hard.  But after the last few incidences with my SIL, I am getting to the point where I just don't care anymore whether he gets a gift or not.  When my husband asked why in the world would I buy him anything this year?  I told him I guess I was just trying to hold on to the past (when things were better) and make the family normal again....but you know, there's nothing normal about what is going on this year and I'm frankly just tired of trying to make something happen that really is out of my hands.  We are only doormats if we allow it and I'm just done with that game.  I will continue to pray for my DD family and sometimes that is the best gift we can give.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: sesamejane on December 05, 2011, 10:56:49 AM
Gosh, finally read the Coleman book, and it has a lot of good information in it.

I am sending $$ to Heifer this year on behalf of most everyone that I love and am estranged from, Somewhere someone will benefit from the "chicks, trees, seeds, goats, etc." I will not send a card to the estranged however - it's just enough that I did it. I feel good about the gift.  Maybe I'll put the Heifer card in a scrap book.

Say 'no' dvg. I have been there with my daughter, and you just say 'no' with love.  Let her have a tantrum, call the pollice when she threatens suicide (one visit from them, and that will stop that little trick, especially if there are drugs in the house).  Take care of yourself, and do not fund an education that is built on drug use.  I would not pay for her education unless her grades are solid (I would accept C because it is her choice if she performs or not - and C is passing), and I would insist on counseling.  But that's me.

My daughter started turning around when she started seeing a counselor that she liked. 
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: eneerglir on December 05, 2011, 03:48:21 PM
I've been through about the same thing several times.  First with my youngest sister and now with my youngest daughter.
I know it's hard but everything works out in the end, you just have to give your daughter patience and space. 
I bought my daughter a phone so she could always get help if she needed it.  I always made sure I paid the bill and if I got really lonely, I'd call just to hear her message and hang up real quick.  At lease I knew she was alive.
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pen on December 05, 2011, 10:50:53 PM
Eneerglir, if you've alread had an official welcome, sorry to be repeating it here. I looked but didn't see one, so here goes:

If you haven't already done so, please read the pink-highlighted Forum Agreement and How This Happened under Open Me First on the homepage. We ask this of all new members to make sure the site is a good fit. BTW, disregard the awful spam that is hitting us regularly these days; we four moderators know about it and will eradicate it as soon as we log in from our various time zones.

Welcome to the site!
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on December 07, 2011, 11:25:38 PM
Thanks so much to all of you.  I am so grateful that you all are here.  What a wonderful community you are!  I thought that I was the only one.  It's especially difficult at this time of year, with all the images of happy families, when the reality is that the worst emotional pain comes from the family.

DD and SS had a big argument, and tonight DD is staying with friends.  Thank God she's safe!  She's worried that SS might destroy everything in the apartment.  I told her that what matters is that she is safe, for her not to go back there alone, and that if he does damage her stuff, it's time for a police report. 

At least right now, she's ready to move out of there.  After all her stuff is moved out, I'll see about breaking the lease (hoping that when I tell the landlord the truth that he'll be happy to get rid of SS).  DD is already saying that she wants another apartment - no way.  She can move into the dorm next semester. 

I'll just have to hold firm and tell her that she's not going to manipulate me into another apartment.  She's put up with so much from SS and his drug using friends, she can put up with a roommate.  I've told her that whatever a roommate would be like, it would be much better than what she's had with SS.  She can move back here, or live in the dorm, or try to find a job.  You all are right, I have to stop playing her game and letting her manipulate me. 

It's been next to impossible to get my work done, and worrying about her has been literally making me sick.  As for her going to NY, with or without SS, I'll have to tell her that she is an adult and I can't stop her from going - but I am not going to pay for it, either.  If she wants to do that, she can get a job and pay for it herself. 

I pay for her cell phone, and often I check online to see if she's called or texted anyone.  It's proof of life.
She has to realize that I don't have unlimited money - and I've told her that I will never pay for any housing arrangement that would allow for the possibility of SS moving in with her.  She needs to get him out of her life.  Right now she is afraid of him and his violent temper.  It's like an abusive relationship. 

Thank you all so much for being here!  You're helping me stay somewhat sane...
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: Pen on December 08, 2011, 12:28:10 AM
You sound strong & sure, Dvg. Good for you for sticking to your guns. I have a feeling things are turning around for your DD. Best wishes.'
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: luise.volta on December 08, 2011, 03:05:08 PM
Sending love...
Title: Re: New here, don't know what to do
Post by: dvg on December 08, 2011, 07:51:33 PM
Thanks... I love you guys.  Hoping and praying that things will turn around for DD.  She has to get away from SS.  For now I'm telling her first things first, be safe and get through the semester.  Since she's an adult I don't know how I could force her to get counseling but I'm going to keep pushing for it... she needs it.  I'm going myself.