I am having trouble with understanding the recurring theme I read of "letting go of expectations" and embracing "acceptance". Here is what is confusing to me. I expect things every day. I expect that if I don't brush and floss, my teeth might fall out. I expect that if I don't stop at a red light, I might have an accident. I expect that if I were to punch someone for butting in the grocery line that I would get punched back (and likely arrested for assault :-[). On the other hand, I expect that if I smile, someone will smile back. I expect that if I treat someone with kindness most of the time they will return the kindness.
As to acceptance, if I accept the unpleasantness in life, how does anything ever change? If I accept that cruelty exists or poverty or just plain old rudeness, is that just inviting it to never change? I hope this doesn't sound too simplistic because I know human behavior is very complex but how do you live without expectation and acceptance of the things that are difficult in your life? If you don't have expectations doesn't that mean you don't have hope either? If you have acceptance isn't that just a form of defeat? I really look forward to your thoughts.
Seems pretty logical to me. But I'm sure others will have a books worth of opposing views.
hello just don't understand,
for me, the dreaded "E" word is bs. if none of us had any "expectations" and we all had "acceptance" this site wouldn't be here and neither would ANY of us. all we can do is realize we cannot change people. people change themselves. a friend of mine once told me, when we were conversing about a mutual friend who'd "changed" in our opinion, she said, "you'd never lose another friend if you "excepted" the fact "people change"
hows that for a quote!
true, but i still don't like the dreaded "E" word
;)
My DH uses the phrase all the time, "when you learn to accept it..." I say accept what? What is there to accept? That my DS and DIL hate me/us, that they are selfish, that they are dillutional (I can go on with a million ideas) How can one accept that....especially when I birthed him and raised him. THEN....
He says it in a way with out words. Then I realize after 4.5 months of this. I have accepted that not everyone is like me and just because I have expectations which is how I treat people....doesn't mean that they will treat me the same way.
So...Ladies, maybe this will help you...it has helped me.
I have high expectations for myself and for only myself and I accept that I am a wonderful person, mother, wife, etc. In all of my life those things are the only TRUE expectations and acceptance that really count. In a perfect world, if everyone were like me/us and followed our expectations and we accepted that they were going to do that....we would only be lying to ourselves.
This was the hardest lesson I had to learn for myself. Now I give myself a break if I don't live up to my own expectations and I accept that I am human and can make mistakes or not be so perfect.
:)
Quote from: justdontunderstand on October 12, 2010, 07:59:15 AM
I am having trouble with understanding the recurring theme I read of "letting go of expectations" and embracing "acceptance". Here is what is confusing to me. I expect things every day. I expect that if I don't brush and floss, my teeth might fall out. I expect that if I don't stop at a red light, I might have an accident. I expect that if I were to punch someone for butting in the grocery line that I would get punched back (and likely arrested for assault :-[). On the other hand, I expect that if I smile, someone will smile back. I expect that if I treat someone with kindness most of the time they will return the kindness.
As to acceptance, if I accept the unpleasantness in life, how does anything ever change? If I accept that cruelty exists or poverty or just plain old rudeness, is that just inviting it to never change? I hope this doesn't sound too simplistic because I know human behavior is very complex but how do you live without expectation and acceptance of the things that are difficult in your life? If you don't have expectations doesn't that mean you don't have hope either? If you have acceptance isn't that just a form of defeat? I really look forward to your thoughts.
you don't live without expectations, that would be giving up your own dreams....however, you don't have expectations of others, except, do unto others, and hope they comply....many don't....
I remember when my son got married, me, dumb as I was, thought nothing would change, that now, I've have a son and a daughter and everything would remain the same....and I'd still be mom, and leader....and would enjoy teaching my DIL everything I knew...gain a daughter and she would love and respect me as much as my son did....my son always loved me unconditionally, regardless...as every son does...
However, he got married, and this new love in his life, didn't want a mother, didn't want to compromise her traditions, and already had a mother and now also has a huge family from his father's side, including a step mom and 3 additional step brothers and sister...so, here's this young woman, coming into my life, and the life of everyone else on my son's side, all beside herself, and expected to live up to all of our expectations.....the phone calls, the family holiday dinners, the gifts, the unannounced visits....and all of us giving her advice....sheeesh, she was overwhelmed....and thinking, "What about my expectations of what a marriage and extended family should be?"
Here is another example, when two people marry, they each have expectations of what a marriage should be, and if one can't give more then the other, those expecations become dust and expectations can set one or both mates up to fail....b/c his expectations of what he thought a marriage should be, are not nearly what yours are.....
so, expecations are good, when it comes to stuff like, what we want our lives to be when we're 60...however, when it involves others, they're expectations are not the same....and we're really set back b/c they are not....
we learn from our mistakes....big time....some of us never do, and some learn the very first time, but if it wouldn't be for the bad times in our lives, how would we know true happiness and joy, even if only fleeting....
Acceptance is:
when a person agrees to experience a situation, to follow a process or condition (often a negative or uncomfortable situation) without attempting to change it, protest, or exit.
Acceptance as a concept appears in Eastern religious concepts such as Buddhist mindfulness, and in human psychology. Religions and psychological treatments often suggest the path of acceptance when a situation is both disliked and unchangeable, or when change may be possible only at great cost or risk. Acceptance may imply only a lack of outward, behavioral attempts at possible change, but the word is also used more specifically for a felt or hypothesized cognitive or emotional state.
In other words, it is what it is....
We as human beings are extremely impatient, and we want what we want when we want it....however, when we dont' get our ways, even if some don't agree with us, we act out, like children....really we do....some more then others, some not so much, but we don't like it when we are told we can't do this or that, especially women, b/c we're so used to taking the lead....and we're all controlling to some degree....
I don't know if that explains it or not...whatever works for you....for me, it has worked....
you cannot give up expectations, that would be giving up your identity, your dreams, desires...but to have expecations of others, sets them up to fail you...other then of course, respect, which needs to work both ways, and to be treated kindly, etc.
Creme,
I read your post with great interest. "It is what it is" is something I say to myself almost like a meditation mantra at times. My intelligence understands it but my heart does not follow. My heart keeps saying, "how can this be?" My heart wants to find a solution that we all can live with without sacrificing who we are as people.
I don't want my DIL to essentially change who she is to meet my expectations of a DIL. I just want her to realize that we are most likely not who she thinks we are (ie. either inconsequential or worse--- unworthy of a place in the new family). I want a chance.
Quote from: justdontunderstand on October 12, 2010, 08:58:27 AM
Creme,
I read your post with great interest. "It is what it is" is something I say to myself almost like a meditation mantra at times. My intelligence understands it but my heart does not follow. My heart keeps saying, "how can this be?" My heart wants to find a solution that we all can live with without sacrificing who we are as people.
I don't want my DIL to essentially change who she is to meet my expectations of a DIL. I just want her to realize that we are most likely not who she thinks we are (ie. either inconsequential or worse--- unworthy of a place in the new family). I want a chance.
I know, I know, believe me, everything you have said here I've gone thru and felt....however, now I don't feel like I've sacrificed anything....you will eventually, get to a point, where you will grow and realize, how utterly small some of these issues are...and when I heard my DIL say to me, "Gosh, I'm glad you told me about that, b/c I don't want to hurt anyone else's feelings"....then I said to her, "don't change for me...now that I know this is you and not a personal attack because you don't like me, I can accept who you are.....but only change if you want to change, not for me."
You will go thru the same changes when it's time, or at least, I hope like heck you do and DIL gives your feelings validation as you will do hers...it's really funny, not really, but for a lack of words, it's funny, how immediately, I forgot everything and was so thankful to have it made right, that nothing else mattered, not my pride, and I realized, I changed for the better...and wasn't giving me up at all....I feel better about myself now...much more confident....and believe me, when I read everyone's stories, they are different but so much alike, if that makes any sense?
Not everyone changes, people don't always change.....don't believe it...some people never progress and grow...they stagnate in they're own little protective plastic bubbles they've created for themselves, b/c they feel safe there, b/c they hate change, and that is what is unhealthy....you heard the saying a leapord doesn't change they're spots...well, believe you me, I got in a lot of trouble and hurt, b/c I believed people do change....people only change if they want to so bad it hurts....and with this DIL thing, you or should I say, I got to a point where I was sick of it, I wanted change so bad I could taste it, and I realized, I had to be the one who changed....and if it's fake, or insincere, they're going to feel it right away....it's gotta truly be what you want...
Here's the story I tell about expectations.
It was my Dad's 60th birthday party. My Mom did not have any alcoholic beverages, because my Dad and many of his friends don't drink. My cousin's husband came in and (when offered a choice of beverages) said "I should have known that I wouldn't be offered a beer in this house, I should have brought my cooler!" My Dad was SO MAD about that comment.
Now here's the thing, this cousin's husband, he's a jerk. He's cocky and rude and he doesn't know how to act in polite company. But, he doesn't talk about you behind your back, what you see is what you get: a JERK.
So when my parents told us this story, my brother turned to my Dad and said "YOU were wrong." And we were all sort of shocked at his statement, but then he followed up with "This guy is a jerk. We all know he's a jerk. If you expect him to act like anything other than a jerk, then YOU are wrong." Wow, that was really powerful for us.
I've also had to change my expectations about my MIL. She wasn't a good parent, she DOESN'T have it IN HER to be a good grandparent. It helped me to ACCEPT her actions, because I realized that she wasn't INTENTIONALLY slighting my DD. She can't be a better Gma, because she doesn't know how.
We've also come to accept my SIL (DB's wife). She is completely different from us. It's her nature, her culture, her personality. We can't expect her to BE anyone else. We don't have to love it. But we know we can't change it. And we want to spend time with DB and the DN's. So we put up with SIL.
You can expect anything you want, but if your expectations aren't met and you get in a funk over it, then you're only hurting yourself. If you're a family of pigs you enjoy rolling in the mud, well what if your DS marries a cat? If you expect the cat to roll in the mud, you're crazy. If you're going to get all bent out of shape and insulted if the cat refuses to roll in the mud, you're only hurting yourself.
You can't change who someone is, and you're right if you 'expect' to you're in for a rude awakening.... but you can expect that had a beer been handed to this cousin's husband that he would say thanks. I don't think many are expecting to change people just common courtesy.
My middle son is kinda/sorta engaged to a Japanese girl... wonderful girl, but whew talk about a different culture.. I struggle at times not fully understanding when she speaks of her parents and their expectations for her. Now the way I'm grasping it, these are not suggestions but demands, but then again I'm not of a Japanese mind set. My son meanwhile had lived and studied in Japan for 2 years, so he is more open to their way of viewing their relationship with their daughter. Those two will have their own struggles, but as I told them.. if you love each other enough, you'll make it work.
I accept that if I don't clean my teethe..they will fall out. That is about me and in my realm of influence. If others don't clean their teeth and they fall out...that is about them and their lesson to learn. I accept the toothless smile. Sending love...
For me, the issue is attachment. The Buddhists believe that the origin of all suffering is attachment. I would go further to say that it is our attachment to our expectations that is the origin of suffering.
We all have expectations of other people, but unless we spell out those expectations and the other person agrees to comply, we cannot be upset that our expectations have been disappointed. After all, they are OUR expectations, we are responsible to ourselves for having them. The other person didn't force them on us, we forced them on the other person. As long as we are attached to those expectations, and emotionally invested in them happening, we will be hurt when they don't happen and that is our fault, and not the other person's fault. At some point, we all have to pull on our big girl pants and be responsible for our own feelings.
I am not saying that all expectations are bad to have. I expected that my DH would be faithful to me. When he was having an emotional affair, he pulled out the Buddhist attachment card in order to bully me into accepting his affair. He said, "If you didn't have a problem with this, it wouldn't be a problem." I agreed and told him that I did have a problem, it was my problem, I owned it, but it was a reasonable problem to have. If he could not meet my expectations of faithfulness, then we needed to see a lawyer because I would be moving on one way or another. But, that is between me and my H in our M. In an M, there is a sort of emotional contract between two people. This does not exist between a DIL and PILs (Parents-in-law). Too often, PILs expect the emotional contract they have with their child to extend to his spouse, or they have some unspoken contract they assume the new IL will or has agreed to, and this is unreasonable. They expect the DIL to blend seamlessly into the family. They have optimistic ideas of what this new addition will be without taking into account that the DIL and her family have expectations as well.
I read on here and other boards about people reaching out to their DIL or MIL time after time trying to become friends or "bring them into the family," and being rejected time after time. I can understand being hurt the first couple of times, but after that it is on you. She doesn't want or is incapable of the kind of relationship you want with her so leave the poor woman alone. YOU are in the wrong for pushing your expectations off on her. The whole whiny, "But, she is pushing her expectations on meeeee," doesn't fly because you are not responsible for what she does, but for your own actions. My Dad used to ask me if all of my friends were jumping off of a cliff, would I? She may never change, but so what? Not a darned thing you can do about it. You can whine and complain, or you can grow up, let it go and figure out how to live with it. Accept that she does not have the same expectations and modify your own. Grieve over what you can't have, but then stop with the drama and histrionics and move on. You are only hurting yourself by holding on to expectations that are not going to be met. You can either continue to chose to put yourself in the way of more hurt, or you can change what you expect to be closer to what she can or is willing to give.
You are the only person you can change.
Once we are hurt, then we have a tendency to attach ourselves to those feelings of hurt. We are the victim and we can play the victim as long as we hold onto those feelings. And, we feel like the victim because we don't understand what is going on. We were just going along being our normal selves only to be kicked in the teeth. We don't understand what we did wrong, maybe we didn't do anything wrong, maybe we just mis-stepped a bit without realizing it, maybe we were simply mis-understood and were never given a chance to explain ourselves, maybe the other person assumed the worst and we were never given the chance to prove we were better than that. So, what? Their misunderstanding is not personal, their mistreatment is not personal, it is all about them. They have shown you who they are, so move on. Feel hurt and all that jazz, then let it go and move on. You only hurt yourself by holding onto the hurt, anger and pain. How you feel beyond the first little bit is no one's fault but your own, not to mention the hurt gets in the way of understanding and forgiveness. If I was unable to let go of the hurt my DH dealt me, our M would have failed and it would have been as much my fault as his.
I am not talking about your DIL asking you for forgiveness. I learned long ago that forgiveness is all about me. I have forgiven some pretty bad things without being asked because to do otherwise was to poison myself. For me, a big part of forgiveness is letting go of the pain because it is the healthy thing to do FOR ME. There are some people who will never even acknowledge they did me wrong. Doesn't matter, that is on them and I cannot do anything about that. I can only take responsibility for my own choices. Not forgiving makes one bitter and petty. That is not the kind of person I want to be.
I am sorry if I am being harsh. Part of it is because I am preaching to myself. I am in a situation with my boss right now in which you could replace "DIL" with "crazy boss" and you would understand the position I am in. I have lived this from both the MIL, the DIL and the married child perspective. Even though my Mom and MILs showed me how not to be an MIL, I still got caught up in being right. When I got perspective and let go of all of those slights, things got much better. Not ideal, but better. Once I stopped focusing on what was wrong in the relationship, a lot of things when right, and I was able to nurture the parts of my life I had neglected because I was too busy being a victim. Remember that they are just kids still figuring out what it is to be married/adult/a parent and they need our understanding. The waters they are navigating are much more treacherous than the waters we are in. We only have a SIL or DIL to contend with, while she has her ILs, her family, and her DH to try and please. She is going through a lot of change. She is in the process of understanding what a reasonable expectation is while trying to meet everyone else's. Is it any wonder she is failing to meet yours? We only have one person to fit into our family while she is trying to form a family with her DH, plus helping him acclimate to her family, and trying to know what his family is all about. And, then you throw a kid in the mix. It is crazy making at its worst. Add to this that not all people have healthy coping mechanisms, lets face it, most people don't have healthy coping mechanisms to help them deal with all of this stuff all at once. Give her a break, she needs one.
I have no idea how to end this and it is long enough. I know many of you are hurt, but you chose to be hurt. I chose to let my boss hurt me. You can forgive, let go of the pain and accept things the way they are, or you can continue to be hurt and miserable. You chose.
AAAHHH, the ole "victim" scheme. i remember that game. ::) LOL...... anywho, my lil brother, (god rest his soul) studied Buddhism, taught me alot . his was a wise and old soul i believe...... I use alot of what he taught to move forward, and not to 'attach" myself to long to a "feeling, grudge, problem, misunderstanding...." but that's it. i am attached to my family, kids, DH, my animals, friends, ect... but attached to an expectation? what is an expectation really? i believe its a feeling we have at the moment. so if i change, the situation changes, or any dynamic changes, so does the "expectation" and that would mean the "attachment to the expectation" would change as well. just thinkin....................
I like the question: Do you want to right or do you want to be happy?
I think the discussion of Buddhism brought into expectations/acceptance and individual responsibility for one's own emotions (and suffering) is an interesting one. I am no Buddhist scholar but one of the things that troubles me about the Buddhist idea that suffering is self inflicted seems to ignore "other induced" suffering/distress. Slavery is one example of "other induced" suffering/distress. I cannot, accept that everyone is responsible for their own suffering in every situation. Sometimes suffering is caused by others. There are, in fact, true victims and not all victimization is self inflicted. At least that is what I believe. While trying to be responsible for your own emotions, I think, is a good idea, it is not always possible to end your own suffering simply by accepting it.
Now with all that said, I do not mean to equate the suffering brought about by slavery with the distress caused by DIL problems!
But what I do think is trying to accept responsibility for your own emotions, your own expectations and your own behavior is worthwhile, it doesn't always end your distress. I think that rejection is one of the hardest human emotions to deal with. It is especially hard to deal with when it comes from a close relationship (even one brought about by law and not by birth). I think that you cannot really just detach emotionally from a situation with you family very easily. The bond between parent and child is a strong one for a good reason...it keeps the human race going! :)
Isn't it possible that distress is sometimes "other induced" ?
Well, yes, if someone is beating you with a stick! The point is we pick our "others" and chose to stay in the marriage or the job. It's just a different way to look at being responsible for our own happiness. It can by-pass helplessness, hopelessness and victimism.
Something that stresses me to pieces might not affect someone else the same way. For instance, I am thin-skinned and can easily feel picked on. My best friend would treat an unkindness with puzzlement...and would say something about how strange the person was to think that she wasn't marvelous 24/7! ;D It didn't bother her! She knew she was totally great! I miss her. When I get into sticky situations I often think...what would ____ have said? And it helps me.
I loved reading this thread....thanks for starting it, and thanks to all for bringing some very good and thought provoking messages to the table.
Justus, it's great seeing you and reading you again, as always...you always offer such savvy advice....hope things are going well for you....
Rejection can be one of the most painful and dreaded of all situations that some experience in life...
If I'm rejected, I will back off, maybe they do it once or twice, to give them the benefit of the doubt, but what they're doing is asking me, without words, to please back off....I don't need a reason from them, if they're interested or if I'm wrong, they will contact me.
Some, will lure you in, purposely to reject you again and again...
I won't buy into deliberate mean ness and won't allow myself to be someone's victim....or allow someone to bully me...simply put, I just feel we are not a good fit, there is a personality conflict of sorts and it doesn't really bother me.
Rejection hurts, heck we're human, why wouldn't it....however, we need to embrace the pain of it, so we can move on and view it as what it is....even in family rejections....you cannot "make" someone like you...there is knowledge in embracing hurt, and self examination...life knowledge.
some relationships are worth fighting for however, if the person is rejecting you, the more you try, the more they will be agrivated, by calls, stop overs or trying to put yourself in the same place they are, just let them go...you can't mend it...it's takes two who mutually agree to do so, and if someone is being mean to you, it's b/c they don't know how to say to you...I don't want to be around you....so, let them go....and move on, even if it's a family member.
in the face of rejection, for myself, I immediately change habits in my life, and lean towards something new, be it enrolling in a class, planning a weekend getaway....and striving to just forget about it...sometimes it's not easy, but lets face it, you can't force yourself on someone, and if you do, it will only prolong your hurt, you make yourself a victim and again are invading someone's privet space, why would you want to push yourself on someone?
You cannot force people into liking you...we all want to be liked, however, we can't all like each other...sometimes, we're just not a good fit....
Get outside, go for walks, do something for you to energize your positive side, and allowing it to overtake the negative...I find nature is something that really draws me in, makes me feel fantasitic about myself, and lets me know, how very connected to everything and all I am...the person who is rejecting you is the looser, not you, remember that and keep repeating it to yourself. I'm to the point, I just don't care any more...that is they're choice, and if they don't want me in they're life, why would I want to be? Even if it is a family member.
The more you let someone go and get on with your life, the quicker it mends itself....I don't snob people who reject me, and in the autumn of my life, there havent' been many rejections....and if there are, I just don't really care...if you don't like me, that is your choice, and your free to choose as I am.
When we face rejection, there is a fear that overwelms us and can cause anxiety and a great deal of angst....it's a fear of being alone or feeling a loneliness...you've seen me write several times, I'm alone but not lonely...
Try if you can to examine your own personal degree to which you can create your own happiness--even when alone. Examine how too much dependence on others for happiness can undermine your feelings of confidence with others and lead to fear of rejection. (these are just suggestions and not aimed at anyone here, including the OP) There are many people out there who so depend on others for happiness, which is where expectations come into play.
You cannot force someone into doing your bidding, or pleasing you, if you do, you set them up to fail and yourself up to fail, no one can or is able to live up to your personal expectations that define you....unless you communicate to them your needs....
You've heard many husbands say, ?Sheesh, she expects me to be able to read her mind???" Those are unrealistic expectations that no one can fill...if you cannot communicate your feelings and let people know what is going on in your head, well, quite candidly, they're not going to know, and when they don't know, if they fear rejection, and are insecure about themselves, they are going to take it as a personal attack against them...
A bully thrives on this, a bully is an emotional vampire and will suck the life out of you, if you allow them to...they live for this and find joy in it...don't let them...ignore them, until they go away....
Fear of rejection is actually negative feedback to the self about who you are...very important to remember that...Luise wrote, don't let anyone define who you are and she is right...when your dependent upon others for happiness, you are allowing others to define your identity...you depend on that to live, and that is co-dependency...(I found that out, after leaving my husband and planning my first vacation to the Bahamas) Remember sitting there watching the sun set, and thinking, how could he have soiled our vows, or why didn't he take them seriously, how could he have laid with another woman? I was so torn apart....then oddly, it hit me...all that I'm writing about....and I realized, that Inot only compromised my identity but allowed him to define it. It wasn't all his fault, it was me, he didn't live up to my expectations, but I choose someone who never could have...someone insecure and alwayss needed to be in a new relationship to feel good about himself. So, I was at fault here to, he was my choice, so the next step was to figure out, why I choose someone who wasn't able to be loyal to himself, let alone me. (that's another story) but do you see where I'm going with this?
If your self-image is too closely tied to what others think of you or how well you relate to others, then fear of rejection can be a threat to your whole self-image. That in itself can create a lot of anxiety. If you are used to defining the core of your Self or your future as "popular," "married," "well-liked," "a leader," or the like, then threats to any of these self-concepts may create a great deal of anxiety. Or you may view your life script as being married, having children, or having a number of close friends. To the degree that any of those expectations are threatened, and you cannot see how you can be happy without them, then you will experience anxiety.
How can you overcome fear of rejection which threatens your self-image or life expectations of others? You must define yourself and your essence in a way that does not depend upon what others think. For example, if you define yourself as someone whose main goals are to seek happiness for yourself and others; treat others kindly, honestly, and assertively; be a person of integrity; and not worry about other's reactions to you, then meeting your primary goals will not be dependent upon what others think. Your happiness will be in your control, and you will feel much more secure.
And always remember, who you are, the goodness in you along with your faults, are the who of who you are, and you are very significant in this circle of life...stop and think about all those who have crossed your path, or they've crossed yours, it's all purposeful, even the pain...the hard knocks and struggles...it's all got purpose and is simply put, part of our own life's journey, we either get it, or we don't....we move on, or we don't....we are open minded or we are not, we are aware of the needs wants and desires of others, only when we become aware of our own, and we are able to accept...and love ourselves, instead of constantly beating ourselves up by thinking life is supposed to be nothing but worry and analyzing situations that just didn't go our way....when we do that, we stagnate....and look for things to worry about, and sabatoging our very own livelyhood. No one is doing it to you but yourself...
and as justus said, or I think it was in her post...a lot of times, when I'm writing, I'm not addressing any of you, I'm sharing my thoughts and constantly reinstating them in my own mind...it is theorpy for me....
take what works for you, and what doesn't that's fine...but this is how I've dealt with things and it's worked for me, up until now, when it doesn't anymore, I'll find another way...
Hugs
Creme
being thin skinned....most of the time Anna, it is learned behavior, meaning, it comes from one or both of our parents....we develope most of our characters, our emotions and now we react to situations from our parents....we actually parrot them growing up, they are our greatest influence....
sometimes, people who cut you out of they're lives, do so, b/c they are very afraid of rejection, actually are so afraid, they will cut you out of they're lives before you do...that's how greatly they fear rejection....
Anna, your DIL is being the kind of person her mother probably was.....and I bet you, any money, a lot of times she's angry and she doesn't know why?
Anna, your DIL's mother was an alcoholic, right....and she does have problems...will always have problems....she is parroting the same behavior of how her mother probably treated her....it's all she knows....that is why, it is so good for kids to be exposed to many different people....they have your influence, they will have influences at school and the influences of many friends parents, so believe me, they'll be fine....
Children are resilient...and while DIL may not be doing her best...she's doing the very best she can at this time, with the tools she's had....and all she knows how to do, it's how she was taught....she is not a bad person, she is simply struggling with how to be....maybe she even resented the fact that her husband and his mother were so close and she didn't ever have that?
I said before, that she probably looks up to you as her template for a wife and mother and I believe that....and that is probably why you've both had problems, I think, she wishes she were more like you...and with the influence of you and hubby in your GC's lives, everything is going to be fine....she is insecure and you have no idea what her life was like growing up, so try and be patient with her...I really do believe time will bring her to you, if you give her a chance....in the meantime, rest assure, that children are resilant, and try to observe DIL and find good in her...reason being, it will help draw you closer to her, so that maybe, someday she will confide in you and you will be prepared to help her....
yanno what you could do right now, work on you and stop worrying about DIL's....you said your think skinned, and you get hurt very easily, why? Why do you think that is....?
big hugs...Creme
Anna: Do you think maybe, by not hugging and coddling her children when they are throwing a tantrum (and in the examples you gave, that is exactly what they were doing....they weren't really hurt, they were just upset that they didn't get their way) she is trying to teach them that it IS sometimes a cold world out there and they need to learn how to cope with not getting their own way all the time? I remember when my kids started school....there were 5 kindergarten classes (and also in the other grades as they got older) in their school. Some of the teachers were known for being a little more strict and than others. They were all good teachers, just had different styles of teaching. Parents could request a specific teacher for their child, or they could just let the school assign a teacher. A very good friend always requested the nicest, most permissive teacher for her kids every year. She thought it was awful that I never, ever requested a specific teacher for my kids. Sometimes they got the nicest, and sometimes they got the most strict. Her thought was...make it as easy for them as possible. My thought was...the sooner they learn to deal with different types of people in life, the better, because it was something that they were going to have to do for their entire life. Neither of us was right or wrong, we just had different parenting styles (and all of our kids are turning out just fine). Yes, your gc are small, but there is a lot going on in their little bodies, growing and learning every day, and it's never too early to start learning life lessons....your DIL may believe that giving positive attention (hugs) for throwing a tantrum is only going to reinforce the behavior. It doesn't mean she doesn't feel any emotion or that she's teaching her kids not to show emotion, she's only trying to teach them that some emotions aren't appropriate for certain situations (like throwing a fit when they don't get their way).
I don't know, in my family we were taught to actively manage our emotions, especially negative ones. We were pretty much raised by the etiquette books concerning this subject lol. I think it can come across as I'm unemotional to DH's family b/c they don't have the same beliefs. It's not that I'm unemotional but it's pretty ingrained in me that there is a time and a place. If you can't control it, you need to leave the room so as to not affect others.
So you can imagine just how different it was getting used to DH's family! Emotions flying around, negative ones dumped about lol. And you know, it can start to feel like a really narrow one way street when you're hearing all about negative feelings, quite a bit from the same person over and over again. I have my own feelings to manage too.
As everyone deals with things differently it's really hard to gauge their emotional stress levels so I think of it as being polite to others. You aren't always going to know how someone is feeling or what they are managing at that point in their lives. So this is just my opinion, by being free or looser with negative emotions can be hard on others and make them uncomfortable. When people emote it does affect a room, that's why chronically happy people usually have a lot of friends and chronically negative don't.
My beloved ex-DIL (we never got divorced) calls it "leaking." ;D I would love to be able to cry but the best I can do most of the time is to tear up and be unable to talk. The exception was the day I took Val to nursing. The tears just streamed down my face for days...and of course I couldn't talk. Maybe it's because I just don't get that sad very often?
And even though I'm not a crier, people come to me and unload, too. I'm a Pisces, are you Anna? Lots of empathy.
Anna, I think crying can be viewed differently by different people. I personally think depending on the situation it can be over the top or understated in such a way that it is not bothersome to others. There is a huge difference in crying quietly with your back turned and bawling hysterically so that everyone has to hear it. But that is just my opinion.
Funerals to me are a normal place to show to emotions. It is the time and place. But say it's some years later and something triggers a memory of the deceased and you're overcome with grief? That is where I was taught that it was important to remove yourself from the situation. Let others determine if they have the emotional reserve to come to you instead of not giving them the option and just displaying the grief right there.
But in any case, I wasn't really talking about reactions to grief. For example, say Jane and Jill have problems with each other. And Jane keeps talking to me about Jill -- I call that dumping. Jane is dumping her negative emotions on me. I have no dog in the fight with Jane and Jill but Jane wants to keep talking about it, to me. It's not a pleasant subject, it's not even something I can control. So I'm left feeling badly because Jane is feeling badly. That type of emotional display is irresponsible to me.
And really, that is a huge part of why I'm here. I don't want to take out my negative feelings on friends b/c of an issue I'm having and it doesn't involve them.
Wow, Pam, I could have written your post. One of the biggest problems we had with DH's family was the constant negativity and unending drama.
Anna, no one is saying that all crying is negative. A funeral is certainly a sad event for everyone and crying is appropriate and necessary for healing. Empathy tears for someone who has a real problem are also very acceptable. I am a cry-er and I always have been, I cry at movies, I cry when people I love are hurting, heck even some commercials can make me tear up. However crying over every little thing that doesn't go my way, or every time I think someone isn't nice to me, isn't necessary, appropriate, or productive. Things don't always go our way...that's life! When my kids crying because they lost someone they love, or even a pet, you can bet they got lots of hugs, kind words, and empathy tears from me, but if they were crying over me taking a toy away from them because they were misusing it (and it really doesn't matter if you think he was misusing it or not...your DIL did think he was misusing it and she is the one that gets to make that determination), then they need to learn to work through those feelings on their own. There are better ways of dealing with disappointment than falling apart or acting out, and children are capable of learning that at an early age.
Creme:
I loved your post on Rejection. I learned a lot in it too. For many of us is the hardest thing to do....to manage rejection. I also think that once you get it that you are not welcome or whatever....to step back. We should always try but as a poster said....never compromising our own identity....who we are.
Anna: I understand what you feel when your gc are hurting and dil is acting cold towards their emotions. The other day, my son/dil and two gc came to visit. My 2.5 gd was crying but really crying and sobbing because mommy took a toy away in the car because she was told not to do something with the toy (whatever) and she didnt obey. Grandpa hold her and started consoling her but dil said she would not give the toy back....regardless. My gd said Ï am sorry mommy...I will not do it again" dil answered Ökey....but I will not give it back....and she didnt. I know that she did what she had to because in this case...it was my gd that was at fault. But nevertheless I wanted to cry with dil....she was so sad about not getting back her hamster toy.
Emotions dear Anna....are who we are. I am very emotional too. I get hurt easily too. In this respect, I think these are traits of our personality....who knows....I like to write about my feelings, poems, reflections.....so you see....it is who we are.
Good luck
Quote from: justdontunderstand on October 12, 2010, 04:44:42 PM
one of the things that troubles me about the Buddhist idea that suffering is self inflicted seems to ignore "other induced" suffering/distress. Slavery is one example of "other induced" suffering/distress. I cannot, accept that everyone is responsible for their own suffering in every situation.
-snip-
Isn't it possible that distress is sometimes "other induced" ?
There's the stuff that happens to us (often other induced) and the way we feel about it and respond to it. The stuff that happens to us may be awful, but the suffering that accompanies it is all about how we feel and think about the event or action, versus being about the event or action itself.
Example: My ex used to shout at and belittle me in public, especially during school meetings for our son. He would also shout at and belittle the school staff during those meetings. I was often in an agony of humiliation, fear and anger during those meetings, because I felt responsible for his behavior, was worried about how the school would react, was terrified of my ex, and felt like the outcome was entirely on my shoulders even though I had no actual power or control where my ex was concerned. So prior to meetings, I would get anxious and physically ill, because I felt powerless yet responsible. The external event in that case, was his raging, the thoughts and feelings were responsibility, fear, anger, powerlessness, and the suffering was both physical and emotional (vomiting and intense anxiety).
After years of this, I finally learned that his behaviors weren't up to me to either prevent or fix, that the school had lots of experience with obnoxious parents and could handle themselves professionally, and that I was not responsible for my x in any way. So we would go to meetings, he would rage, and I was able to detach enough to just watch him do it, without the incredible anxiety (or the vomiting), and then say my piece. I was even able to start politely opposing him during meetings, which I was not able to do earlier. Same external event, but different thoughts and emotional reactions to the event, and much less suffering.
That's the kind of thing that Buddhism is talking about. Not that awful things don't happen to people, or that people are responsible for the awful things that happen to them, but that how people think and feel about those things determines how they will experience them.
My distress is my emotional reaction to the external event that happened to me. I can learn to have a different emotional reaction that decreases or gets rid of my distress, even if I can't change or prevent the external event. Does that make sense?
elsie, it makes perfect sense and I learnt a lot from your post. All of these posts are food for thought I am so grateful I think they are so informative.
thankyou
Quote from: free_at_last on October 13, 2010, 09:00:15 AM
Wow, Pam, I could have written your post. One of the biggest problems we had with DH's family was the constant negativity and unending drama.
Anna, no one is saying that all crying is negative. A funeral is certainly a sad event for everyone and crying is appropriate and necessary for healing. Empathy tears for someone who has a real problem are also very acceptable. I am a cry-er and I always have been, I cry at movies, I cry when people I love are hurting, heck even some commercials can make me tear up. However crying over every little thing that doesn't go my way, or every time I think someone isn't nice to me, isn't necessary, appropriate, or productive. Things don't always go our way...that's life! When my kids crying because they lost someone they love, or even a pet, you can bet they got lots of hugs, kind words, and empathy tears from me, but if they were crying over me taking a toy away from them because they were misusing it (and it really doesn't matter if you think he was misusing it or not...your DIL did think he was misusing it and she is the one that gets to make that determination), then they need to learn to work through those feelings on their own. There are better ways of dealing with disappointment than falling apart or acting out, and children are capable of learning that at an early age.
FAL, I know the feeling. The constant drama set my stomach on fire every time.
Quote from: Anna on October 13, 2010, 07:26:07 AM
Free at last, gs wasn't throwing a tantrum. He was crying at having a toy taken away that he wasn't abusing. Dil constantly yells at her children, it seems she is always looking for something wrong in their behaviour. Something she can disipline them for. I myself, was pretty firm when raising my own children, & don't believe in coddling all the time. It is a cold cruel world, & IMO getting colder, Why can't we let kids be kids for a while? Why this need to make them face the cold hard facts of life so early? Soon enough they will have to deal with all those things.
Hi Anna,
I agree with Free at last....regardless, DIL is the adult and children have to realize, they cannot have everything they want when they want it, life isn't like that...so whatever the reason was for DIL to take the toy away, doesn't define the problem....she took it away, and he thru a tantrum....so if he thru a tantrum, and she gives him back the toy, she is then rewarding his behavior and teaching him, he is going to get his way by doing so, and will repeat that behavior again and again, until someone gives him the toy back.
If you don't teach children early about life, and the cold hard facts, they won't be prepared for it when they get older....my foster mother was extremely naive and trusting, she came from a generation which didn't lock they're doors, everyone knew everyone else in town, we didn't have hard core crime, theft, we left our keys in the car, etc. If someone came to the door, you automatically opened it....never looking to see who was there....you wouldn't think of doing that today....my point is, mother never worked, being naive and trusting, was passed down to us...well, when I got out on the work force, I can't tell you how personally I took it when someone did something bad...I mean I looked up to people, and when I found out they made small or huge mistakes I took it personal. When someone gave me constructive criticism, I took it extremely personal and thought they were telling me I was a bad person....they were not, they were simply pointing out to me, that it wasn't good or healthy to feel like I did....
Your DIL is doing the very best that she can do, and I'm with her on not giving your GS his way...yes, she is strict, and yes, she is yelling at them a lot....and there are many reasons why she is....bottom line is, she wants them to behave and if she doesn't mold they're characters now, by the time they are five years old, they have developed who they are going to be regarding behavior patterns....
I agree with you that DIL might be way to hard on them, however, it won't hurt them or mame them for life, in the end, they will be polite youngsters who know they can't always have they're way...
No one is siding with DIL against your feelings, we're just trying to explain to you, the probable whys of why DIL is doing this....plus no matter how you feel, it's not going to change, so why waste precious time worrying about it....those kids know they're mom loves them....
Kids want discipline, they need it to survive life....and it must be uniform and you should never ever threaten a kid with a consequence, if your not going to deliver...b/c they learn quickly to manipulate....believe it or not, babies know how to manipulate pretty quickly...they cry when they want to be picked up, and if you pick them up and hold them all the time, they're going to cry a lot, when not....
So, bottom line is, I wouldn't think your DIL is doing something wrong, but actually sticking to her guns, no matter how hard the child cries....that to me is a very good thing....she's not giving him his way.
When we get older and become Grand mothers, I believe a lot of us want to give our GC they're ways and please them, b/c we love them, and we want them to love us back...however, we are not doing what is right by the child and by the parent...so, we should actually try to parrot our DIL's rules...so as not to mix the child up or let them know, it's ok to throw tantrums just b/c they want a toy....by doing so, we are actually telling the child, "if you don't do this at home, your not going to do it here"...and yanno, I'm thinking, that might be DIL's problem with you...I could be wrong, but, maybe she feels that you are not strict enough? And she wants to make certain, those children pretty much know her rules, instead of coming to you, and you allowing them to do pretty much of what they want to do.
Do you remember the discussion way back we had about the candy? You thought it was all right once in a while, and DIL did not want them to have candy? Maybe she is afraid you give them they're way to much....and by doing so, undermine her rules. It may seem like a very small thing to you, but she sees it as a huge behavior problem, and doesn't believe in allowing them to have they're way....?
Yanno what I'm thinking, if in front of your DIL when GC asks your for something, and you question if mommy allows it or not, instead of reacting and giving the child it's way, ask the child, in front of Mom, "What would Mommy do?" and if the child says, no, then tell the child, "well then, we have to go by mommie's rules? That would help your situation with DIL extremely...she would be confident, that you are not undermining her rules....you'd actually be helping her to enforce them....
Children learn about entitlement, manipulation and how to get they're ways very quickly....
Now about having your GC while DIL is home on Maternity leave...yes, you might miss them, but it's only right that mom would want to have them as much as practically possible while she is home....I would....I'd want to spend every waking moment with them, before I go back to work....and it has nothing to do with Grandmother/babysitter....nothing to do with that...she simply wants to be with them now, that she has the chance...your turn will come, when she returns to work....that to me, shows me, that she really and truly loves them...which is something you should be very grateful for....and I would suggest, you try and allow her that....consider this even though you might not want to, b/c I'm sure, it would even help you and DIL grow closer....enforce her rules, it will help build up her confidence about you as they're caregiver when she is not around...and make her job easier, make it easier for her to go to work leaving them in your care...
I bet sometimes she might dread leaving them with you, b/c she fears your going to give them they're way and not enforce her rules, which makes her look like she's wrong in her childrens eyes...now that she is talking to you more, and your gaining some ground, let her see that you are very serious about following her rules for the sake of the children....it'll show her that her feelings are important to you and will soften her fears....
remember, I'm not saying your way is wrong, what I'm saying is, it's not her way....and you want to be consistent....and, the children will love you just as much...they must learn, rules may not always be fair, but they are there for a reason....
When my son used to whine and cry and ask me "Why mommy?" I'd say, "because I said so"...and that was it...you don't owe a child an explaination why, they're attention span, doesn't grasp it anyway....my MIL used to undermine my rules with son, and give him his way, which made my job at home that much harder, he thought, b/c MIL said yes, I'd say yes, so, in order to enforce my rules at home, I'd have to be the bad guy more then MIL, and maybe this really frustrates your DIL....?
If when she is there, if one of the kids ask you for something, look at DIL first, before reacting and ask her, "is it ok?" that will really make her feel happy...
doesnt' hurt to try it....Anna, the more you are able to understand why she feels the way she does, will help you get along better with you, and you'll find out, a lot of it is not you, but b/c she is the way she is and feels the way she feels about things...
I'm so learning so much here, and listening to the DIL's gives me perspective and focus on my DIL and her feelings and why she may react the way she does....I want to learn, b/c I want to do better...and for her to trust me...me to trust her....so, I'm so thankful for the DIL's coming in and giving they're feelings about things...it doesn't mean they are picking on you...or they disagree with you, what they are doing is helping you trouble shoot this one issue...and telling us how they might feel, which means, "hey, maybe my DIL feels that way because and it isn't me that she's angry at, or maybe she was insulted when I did this....or maybe...knowledge is power and will help us all work our way back to them...by understanding they're thoughts anf feelings on the subjects...
I totally agree with Creme on this. I know it is hard to stand by and watch your child/DIL get caught up in things that don't really matter, like freaking out when the GC picks something up off the floor and puts it in her mouth. It is so hard to say nothing. And, it is hard to watch your GC cry. You want them to always be happy, no matter what. But, you have to keep in mind that you don't know the history. Maybe you witnessed this one seemingly small event, but maybe there were five similar events previously and Mom has just had enough. You don't know, but while your GC is crying and begging and seemingly contrite, your heart breaks for him and you want to make it all OK.
I have been on both ends of this. My Mom constantly undermined my parenting and consequently I was often either too soft or too hard on my DS in reactions to my Mom's obvious displeasure. For too long, I raised my children by committee, which was just stupid on my part, but I was trying to do the impossible and please my parents. With DD, who was never a problem, this wasn't an issue, but with DS, who was a challenge, he was the one who suffered. the most. He learned how to play his grandma. He would give her some story about how it wasn't his fault, or he would take some of the blame, and neglect to give her the whole story so she thought I had totally overreacted. Instead of questioning his ridiculous stories and backing me up as a parent, she chose to believe him. She would give him lots of pity and then provide what I had taken away or allow him to do what I had grounded him from. She had no respect for me as a parent and taught him not to respect me. She taught my son to lie in order to get out of trouble. This harmed him more than it ever harmed me. He told me that he was afraid to live near me when I had kids because I would do to his kids what his GM, who he now resents for what she did to him, did to him. I told him that I cared and respected him too much as a person and I would never abuse my GCs like his GM did him. Yes, I do consider it abuse. DS had to learn some hard lessons when he got out in the world.
What my Mom did was use DS to get the warm fuzzies she wasn't getting from me. She had tried to get right in the middle of my marriage, but having learned after the failure of my first marriage that this was a huge mistake, she had been given some pretty strict boundaries. When she figured out that undermining my parenting not only caused trouble in our home, but caused resentment that kept DS from bonding with my H, she went about using my DS to try and break up my marriage. It was a hot mess she created, and it was DS who suffered and still suffers because of it. Yeah, she got some warm fuzzies from spoiling DS, but in the long term it got her cut off from me, and my two DDs, and I am still happily married.
So, tread carefully here. You might temporarily make yourself and your GS feel better, but in the long run it will make you both miserable. You will be doing no one any favors. Let your DIL and DS do the parenting and teach your GC to respect their decisions even if inside you are crying. You can even commiserate with the child telling him that you understand that it is hard not to get what you want sometimes, but he has to listen to his mommy because she knows best. The best gift you can give to your GC is to support and respect his parents.
Obviously there are some situations when there is real abuse going on when one should intervene.
Anna, that is my definition of a tantrum. Whether it was unjust or not, that's up to DIL -- no one else.
I don't mean to sound harsh, but I can't see what your guests got out of telling you that they think DIL is too hard on GS. Sounds like a lot of pot stirring, IMO. Their opinions don't matter. Unless there is abuse going on, I can't see why they would even think their opinion mattered and why they would share it with you. If that was my sister or family member I would tell them that it's not appropriate.
Anna, I think I understand some of how you are feeling when these things happen. And I believe you when you said you didn't say anything too.
I know in my own case it is so hard to watch or see my Grandson get into trouble! I've often asked myself , Why? I used to get onto his daddy. LOL Something about us getting older I think we just don't get to uptight about the little stuff like we did when our own children were young. At least that is my opinion.
But unless there is abuse we need to mind our P's and Q's and keep our grandma mouth closed. Or it might make our DILs not want to bring them around as much because she will think you are judging her?
I myself never spanked or hit my children and I hate "Yelling" But that is ME.. And what I did. My Son took after me in some of his parenting skills. And I have no problem with my DILs ways either. But if I thought it was unfair or wrong, Well I'd tape my mouth if I had too. LOL Good Luck.
Being a Grandparent isn't always Sunshine and Rainbows is it?
Quote from: Anna on October 14, 2010, 03:39:34 PM
My idea of a tantrum must be different than some. To me a tantrum is when a child is crying hard, screaming, or kicking. Not the mild "I don't undertand why you took the toy away", crying that my gs was doing. IMO gs was upset by the unjust action of his mother taking away a toy he was not abusing. He was not throwing a tantrum to get the toy back, he was asking his mother why she took it when he didn't do anything to deserve losing it.
Thanx Annie123. It is hard, but I have learned to "zip it", a lot. :) It doesn't mean I have to agree, I just have to zip it!
I love the last line Anna. LOL Zip it even when we don't like or agree. It is not easy in any shape of form. Trust me. I KNOW. ::)
Quote from: Anna on October 14, 2010, 03:39:34 PM
My idea of a tantrum must be different than some. To me a tantrum is when a child is crying hard, screaming, or kicking. Not the mild "I don't undertand why you took the toy away", crying that my gs was doing. IMO gs was upset by the unjust action of his mother taking away a toy he was not abusing. He was not throwing a tantrum to get the toy back, he was asking his mother why she took it when he didn't do anything to deserve losing it.
Thanx Annie123. It is hard, but I have learned to "zip it", a lot. :) It doesn't mean I have to agree, I just have to zip it!
Anna, we're not saying we're right, we don't know her like you do, however, what we're saying is...ok, here is why she "Might" be doing what she is doing...you can't see it b/c your to close to the situation personally....and things she does upsets you pretty quick...so your not able to evaluate the situation from a distance like we can because we are not emotionally invested in the situation...
honestly, there is no need at all for you to defend your stance and your beliefs about what happened...we're simply trying to help you, understand the whys of why she may be acting or feeling the way she does...objectively, which is something you are not able to do, nor was I b/c I was to close emotionally to the situation...no one was saying I was wrong, what they were trying to tell me was, maybe she did this because she feels this way or that...didn't have anything to do with me doing anything wrong....what it had to do with is, me not understanding why and how she felt the way she did...
we don't know, we're simply trying to say, Anna, do you think she feels this way b/c she is viewing the situation from her perspectives and the only way she knows how to see things...at this age and this point in time...
the idea came to mind about her thinking you allow the kids to get away with more, b/c your the grandma....no one is blaming you for anything...please don't take the offense....if you are not able to look at things from a young girls perspective....you won't be able to come up with any solutions...there is no need to say, "I don't do this, or I didn't do that", we love you, we're all sisters here trying to trouble shoot an issue and come up with answers together...maybe we're wrong, and maybe we've touched on something that might be benefical to your relationship...I just think we've got to, together, look at all angles and try and figure out, why DIL is doing these things...we're already decided that part of the reason is, her mother is an alcoholic...but there are other reasons why she's acting the way she does....and it may not have anything to do with you...however, we're trying to say,
well maybe she does this because...
it isn't meant to put you on the chopping block but to come up with ideas, together so that you might understand her character better, which will help you react differently...
and we're not saying all DIL's are like this or feel this way...we're actually trying to think of Anna's DIL exclusively on this one...
Anna, we're all trying to help...please don't feel that you have to defend yourself...your actions....we're saying, maybe DIL feels this way..??? We don't know....
Consider how you feel right now...how are you feeling about all of this, do you feel like we're against you?
and yes, sometimes zipping it is the best thing we can all do when around our inlaws...we're all learning self control...and how to deal with relationships...
Anna, I now exactly what you're saying. DH and I don't agree with some of the things DS and DIL do and it's been really hard for us to sit back and watch but I've decided not to let it bother me (most of the times). It's probably easier for us than it is for you since we don't see GD as often as you see your GKs. Boy, sometimes I'm so glad that they don't live close by and we don't have to witness it on a regular basis. What I'm struggling with right now is that I'm afraid DIL won't allow GD to be close to us, her family will always come first, she may even try to turn GD against us. DS said he wasn't getting in the middle anymore, I didn't know he ever did, if he did, obviously it didn't do any good or we wouldn't be where we're at. I have to say as time goes by my heart is hardening like I never thought it would.
Hugs.
Guest 1
I think that our heart does not harden. We wear a shield to protect our feelings and integrity.
Your son probably tried to mediate the situation with your dil---with no avail. We never know what the couple speaks and discuss at closed doors.
I really wish you the best. I have you in my heart and in my prayers.
Love
You sweet ladies sound so wise! Creame,Nana,and Guest. Each one of your replies sound so caring and kind! God Bless!
I'd like to share a situation with you....when son and DIL lived near me for a year, I watched my GD every weekend while they worked...I was so excited, went out and bought all the things she needed, play pal, stroller, potty to help potty train her, clothes and toys all at consignment shops because I knew ...I did this so they wouldn't have to lug things back and forth, so they could just drop her off. I was excited to show DIL all the stuff....she seemed pleased....
OK, I started taking GD into the potty...the first time she went, I made a big huge party out of it...we called great grand mama, we called daddy at work, and we couldn't call DIL at work, b/c it just wouldn't be right to do so, but when I took GD home, all the way home in the car, I told GD, mommie is going to be so proud of you...well....she was not...she was hurt that I was potty training her, I could tell. Next day, son bought GD over, he said, "mom, don't potty train GD". and of course, I became so defensive and hurt....but did not, and GD was actually afraid to go into the bathroom with me anymore, b/c she thought I was going to potty train her...and she knew mommie didn't want me to....
I went to work and was devestated...and made a huge thing out of this...very hurt, thought my DIL was being jealous...and even cried...cried at the fact that I messed up again....and became very intollerant about the whole thing, making it into a huge huge insult and of course DIL was doing this b/c she hated me...
A girl I'm very close to at work who is my DIL's age, and has two children of her own, and loves her MIL...said to me, "Sheesh, I'd be very happy if someone would have potty trained my kids?" She told me she thought DIL's feelings were hurt, b/c she wasn't there for the first time...and she wanted to potty train her daughter...my DIL was very protective of her daughter...and still is, but has become a very good mother...not that she wasn't before...but, I'm just very proud of her parenting...anyway...long story short, I refused to see my DIL's wishes, feelings and took it as an insult and that she was hurting her daughter, my God I built it up into this big thing...and shame on me...
When things were going on between DIL and myself, son said several times, you and DIL are alike in some way...ohhhh boy did I get angry for him saying that, however, at the time, I couldn't see past my own nose, feelings, hurt, anger, and was very offended.
Now, Hah! and wow, I can surely see similarities....not in looks, she is BEAUTIFUL...but in character....and I'm honored that my son feels that way...actually, what I realize now, is the anger, hurt, kept me in a place where I wasn't able to understand her
My expecations were, that she should understand me, and to heck with how she felt...she was wrong, period....
it was a dark place, and when ever my son tried to say to me, wife isn't like that, I took it as if he was saying I was lying...he wasn't, he was trying to explain to me, that b/c there were problems, I magnified the situation and saw things that just were not there and honestly, they were not...my perceptions ran wild and got all out of focus....I wanted so much for my DIL to like me, and thought she was rejecting me, and she thought I was rejecting her....
...and we do that, we analyzie situations over and over in our heads, until we actually convince ourselves of the worst case senerios, then we choose to believe it, which is even more mind blowing to me...I cannot believe now, that I was so freakin stubborn and refused to see, that my DIL simply felt differently then I did....she missed her daughter while she was working, and wanted to be there for her first this or that....and me, I just wouldn't give her that credit...she had to be doing this to hurt me...but she wasn't....she even said to me, once, of late, that she was so over protective...well we all are, and some more then others, and not only can I appreciate that now, but respect her as well...I'm glad she was over protective...and she is strict...my GD is very polite and I'm proud of they're parenting...
My cousin kept trying to remind me, that perceptions from two people on one issue are always different, and as time goes by we perceive things even more differently...what she was saying was, that I was blowing things out of porportion b/c I didn't have any feedback or know what was going on in DIL's head, so I was actually taking a situation and blowing it way out of porportion, things there were very small things, and I was...I thought she hated me and I was so hurt, that's all I could see....I refused to see boundaries, or her feelings, or even acknowledge them... I thought, how could I be wrong, I am a mother, raised a child, babysat, was a youth group advisor and sunday school teacher and she was telling me I was wrong???? How dare she....!!! Well, I couldn't have been more wrong.
Expectations can really harm a relationship...and cause us to be so selfish only focusing on what we want, not considering the other person's feelings...and when we wake up and do realize, what a whole different person we become, we are able to do better with all our relationships and over look things...now I say to myself, "that's why I love her or him...that is what make her or him unique...and then start to look for they're good qualities...people especially us older folks are not going to change much...and people can be so confounded stubborn, including myself, due to expectations we have of others.
Yes, we should expect respect...however, some do not view respect as I do, and some view respect even more then I do....we cannot expect everyone to feel the same way about things...we all are unique, and we all have our very own ideas of how things should or should not be, and if we're unable to view that others are not going to feel the same way, as we do, we are always going to have problems with relationships...
Expectations can really harm a relationship...and cause us to be so selfish only focusing on what we want, not considering the other person's feelings...and when we wake up and do realize, what a whole different person we become, we are able to do better with all our relationships and over look things...now I say to myself, "that's why I love her or him...that is what make her or him unique...and then start to look for they're good qualities...people especially us older folks are not going to change much...and people can be so confounded stubborn, including myself, due to expectations we have of others.
Yes, we should expect respect...however, some do not view respect as I do, and some view respect even more then I do....we cannot expect everyone to feel the same way about things...we all are unique, and we all have our very own ideas of how things should or should not be, and if we're unable to view that others are not going to feel the same way, as we do, we are always going to have problems with relationships...
Creme, I 100% agree with you. I knew you sounded wise! LOL
Often times people get so wrapped up in what they think is "Right" or "Wrong" that they don't look how there is sometimes many paths to the same end.
I have a wonderful DIL and I know I'm blessed. We have been through some horrible storms but are now enjoying the rainbow afterwards. And it is so SWEET!
I've watched my own Son grow from a "child" mind set to a Grown man and Wonderful Father! And the same with my DIL also.
And while they were growing up and getting to where they are now. I too was growing and changing. Into not only a Wife and Mother, But also a Grandparent.
Life is always changing. People need to STOP and take a breath and accept that. And they would be so "HAPPY" if they would learn to float with the currant instead of always trying to swim up stream. See what I mean?
I remember when my own children were small and my Mother or MIL telling something they did with their babies and how I should too. And I thought, "things have changed since the old days" ..Well same is true with our children.. " Things have changed!" And that is a good thing mostly. They are always learning new things to help babies and children be healthier and happier. To me a wise person "ACCEPTS" change as part of growing and living!
Thank you so much for sharing your story with me! I'm so glad that you and your DIL are now friends and things are good!
Hugssss, Annie
Creme, I can relate to your story, I was a lot like your DIL when I had my first child, I thought she was a baby doll, LOL, was very jealous and over protective of her, didn't even want anybody to come near her, I quit working because I didn't want to leave her with anybody so if I thought that was the problem with my DIL I would understand and not feel so hurt. My DIL only displays that kind of behavior around us, she doesn't mind leaving GD at daycare or with anyone in her family. We did a good job raising our three children, by her admission, pure luck I suppose, but we can't be trusted with our GD. Well, at the present time we are trusted somewhat, every now and then, I guess because GD is older and starting to talk?
But, you're so right, we let the little things bother us and can't see past them and that ruins the relationship. For all we know our DIL could be afraid of us just like we are afraid of her, she may be waiting for us to make the first move towards mending the relationship just as we are waiting for her, however, because DS told us she didn't want to have anything to do with us and she even got angry at me for wishing her a "happy birthday" because she said I didn't mean it, we're afraid that whatever we do she's going to take it the wrong way.
Quote from: Annie123 on October 15, 2010, 05:47:08 AM
Creme, I 100% agree with you. I knew you sounded wise! LOL
Often times people get so wrapped up in what they think is "Right" or "Wrong" that they don't look how there is sometimes many paths to the same end.
I have a wonderful DIL and I know I'm blessed. We have been through some horrible storms but are now enjoying the rainbow afterwards. And it is so SWEET!
I've watched my own Son grow from a "child" mind set to a Grown man and Wonderful Father! And the same with my DIL also.
And while they were growing up and getting to where they are now. I too was growing and changing. Into not only a Wife and Mother, But also a Grandparent.
Life is always changing. People need to STOP and take a breath and accept that. And they would be so "HAPPY" if they would learn to float with the currant instead of always trying to swim up stream. See what I mean?
I remember when my own children were small and my Mother or MIL telling something they did with their babies and how I should too. And I thought, "things have changed since the old days" ..Well same is true with our children.. " Things have changed!" And that is a good thing mostly. They are always learning new things to help babies and children be healthier and happier. To me a wise person "ACCEPTS" change as part of growing and living!
Thank you so much for sharing your story with me! I'm so glad that you and your DIL are now friends and things are good!
Hugssss, Annie
Thanks so much Annie, I really love your outlook....bestest regards....
Hugs, Creme
Quote from: guest1 on October 15, 2010, 06:52:02 AM
Creme, I can relate to your story, I was a lot like your DIL when I had my first child, I thought she was a baby doll, LOL, was very jealous and over protective of her, didn't even want anybody to come near her, I quit working because I didn't want to leave her with anybody so if I thought that was the problem with my DIL I would understand and not feel so hurt. My DIL only displays that kind of behavior around us, she doesn't mind leaving GD at daycare or with anyone in her family. We did a good job raising our three children, by her admission, pure luck I suppose, but we can't be trusted with our GD. Well, at the present time we are trusted somewhat, every now and then, I guess because GD is older and starting to talk?
But, you're so right, we let the little things bother us and can't see past them and that ruins the relationship. For all we know our DIL could be afraid of us just like we are afraid of her, she may be waiting for us to make the first move towards mending the relationship just as we are waiting for her, however, because DS told us she didn't want to have anything to do with us and she even got angry at me for wishing her a "happy birthday" because she said I didn't mean it, we're afraid that whatever we do she's going to take it the wrong way.
guest1....I'm curious. You stated that "For all we know our DIL could be afraid of us just like we are afraid of her, she may be waiting for us to make the first move towards mending the relationship just as we are waiting for her." Even though your DS said she wanted nothing to do with you, you chose to wish her a "happy birthday". Why do that instead of taking a more direct approach at mending the relationship by directly talking to her about your differences?
I'm asking this without completey remembering your entire situation, so bear with me, please. It caught my eye that you said that, because I'm dealing with something slightly similar.
Quote from: guest1 on October 15, 2010, 06:52:02 AM
Creme, I can relate to your story, I was a lot like your DIL when I had my first child, I thought she was a baby doll, LOL, was very jealous and over protective of her, didn't even want anybody to come near her, I quit working because I didn't want to leave her with anybody so if I thought that was the problem with my DIL I would understand and not feel so hurt. My DIL only displays that kind of behavior around us, she doesn't mind leaving GD at daycare or with anyone in her family. We did a good job raising our three children, by her admission, pure luck I suppose, but we can't be trusted with our GD. Well, at the present time we are trusted somewhat, every now and then, I guess because GD is older and starting to talk?
But, you're so right, we let the little things bother us and can't see past them and that ruins the relationship. For all we know our DIL could be afraid of us just like we are afraid of her, she may be waiting for us to make the first move towards mending the relationship just as we are waiting for her, however, because DS told us she didn't want to have anything to do with us and she even got angry at me for wishing her a "happy birthday" because she said I didn't mean it, we're afraid that whatever we do she's going to take it the wrong way.
You are so right....
Guest, I wouldn't worry about her taking it the wrong way or not, as long as in your heart, you have no malace when you give her something or say something to her, and yanno what else, if you say something to her, like Happy Birthday and she says you don't mean it....you get in her face and say, yes I do, and hug her, and see what happens? Even if she pulls away, so what...you are being you....
It seems as though your DIL is either very insecure, and/or wants and needs more attention then most do....
Guest, if you really believe that you cannot control how people feel, and just shrug it off, it's much easier to be the spontanious you of who you are....and it seems to me, as if she is looking for more attention from you....so give it to her....and when she puts herself down, in front of you, you tell her that is not true, and then tell her something that she has done well....let her know you notice....and your not just looking for the negative stuff, and if she then still doesn't respond...tough, then you've tried all you can....but don't be afraid of her...she is simply another fellow human being who doesn't know how to relate to you or take you....
big hugs
Creme
I'm loving this thread! Such good insight from everyone. :D
Creme, as always...great words of wisdom throughout....I'm learning a lot.
Quote from: Sunny1 on October 15, 2010, 07:19:32 AM
I'm loving this thread! Such good insight from everyone. :D
Creme, as always...great words of wisdom throughout....I'm learning a lot.
pssst...so am I, actually, I'm just wingin it as I go....
I'm lovin this to....it's so great to communicate feelings when you know your not going to be judged for them...and we're all learning to accept each others points of view without getting insulted or hurt feelings...it's just another point of view....and not at all intended to hurt our feelings, but more so, communicate they'res...
hugs
creme
Sunny, I tried to talk to DIL about our differences on a couple of occasions so did DH, it made her very angry and made things worse, she's very unapproachable, won't even look at us so now we hardly say a word to her but hi and bye and some insignificant stuff in between and things are a tiny bit better. Not only has DS said that she wants nothing to do with us but she acts like it, she doesn't want to get too personal with us, when we get her a gift she acts like she doesn't like/want it, we really don't know how to act around her.
And Creme, I think my DIL is both very insecure and needs a lot of attention, DS made a comment once that she was very high maintenance emocionally, another time he said she was a pain in the --- but he loves her.
I realize that I have made mistakes but I've tried to rectify them, she and her family have hurt us too more than I can say but I'm not one to stay angry at someone forever, I've done many things to make her feel good and welcome but get nowhere, the silent treatment and indifference seems to be working better for us for now, go figure...
Quote from: guest1 on October 15, 2010, 10:56:09 AM
Sunny, I tried to talk to DIL about our differences on a couple of occasions so did DH, it made her very angry and made things worse, she's very unapproachable, won't even look at us so now we hardly say a word to her but hi and bye and some insignificant stuff in between and things are a tiny bit better. Not only has DS said that she wants nothing to do with us but she acts like it, she doesn't want to get too personal with us, when we get her a gift she acts like she doesn't like/want it, we really don't know how to act around her.
And Creme, I think my DIL is both very insecure and needs a lot of attention, DS made a comment once that she was very high maintenance emocionally, another time he said she was a pain in the --- but he loves her.
I realize that I have made mistakes but I've tried to rectify them, she and her family have hurt us too more than I can say but I'm not one to stay angry at someone forever, I've done many things to make her feel good and welcome but get nowhere, the silent treatment and indifference seems to be working better for us for now, go figure...
Guest,
I think what I'd try is to not engage her at all. Just "hi" and "bye". Don't let her think you are trying to win her. That's the best piece of advice I ever got when dealing with not only my DILs but people who seem removed in general. Actually, this whole ordeal has taught me so much! I can't tell you! I have changed from a very sensitive person to one who hardly lets anything hurt them/me anymore. Good for me...once in awhile it does but it's not a lasting thing anymore.
I remember trying everything and nothing worked, just smirks and snide remarks...no telling what was said to our son. So I disengaged all together. I think it helped. She has become more and more engaged with us even to the point of asking us to come live in their city near them. No thank you but thank you! I appreciate being wanted now. I think as her sons grow, she's seeing that it's not so easy knowing she might be pushed out of their lives like she did us.
Hang on.......disengage. Stand strong. :)
Quote from: guest1 on October 15, 2010, 06:52:02 AM
Creme, I can relate to your story, I was a lot like your DIL when I had my first child, I thought she was a baby doll, LOL, was very jealous and over protective of her, didn't even want anybody to come near her, I quit working because I didn't want to leave her with anybody so if I thought that was the problem with my DIL I would understand and not feel so hurt. My DIL only displays that kind of behavior around us, she doesn't mind leaving GD at daycare or with anyone in her family. We did a good job raising our three children, by her admission, pure luck I suppose, but we can't be trusted with our GD. Well, at the present time we are trusted somewhat, every now and then, I guess because GD is older and starting to talk?
But, you're so right, we let the little things bother us and can't see past them and that ruins the relationship. For all we know our DIL could be afraid of us just like we are afraid of her, she may be waiting for us to make the first move towards mending the relationship just as we are waiting for her, however, because DS told us she didn't want to have anything to do with us and she even got angry at me for wishing her a "happy birthday" because she said I didn't mean it, we're afraid that whatever we do she's going to take it the wrong way.
Hi Guest,
It sounds as if she's coming around slowly, patience is the key...it's not that she feels you can't be trusted...she is just way over protective...really scared...day care might be better in her mind, b/c they are licensed care givers, they really don't bond with the children...right now, I think, and I'm just guessing, she wants that child to know her and love her, and b/c she works, it probably makes her feel super guilty....does that make any sense...?
Guest 1
I totally and absolutely (synonyms lol) agree with Barely there. That is a piece of advice. Probably it doesnt work for everyone but I did that exactly with dil and things turned completely. I had to speak out.....speak to son (which I hadnt done) and anounced my retirement before they retired me. I did this to survive...I was drowning,--- depreseed, anxious, nervous. I couldnt take it any longer....as dramatic as it may sound.....I wanted to die and prayed that it happened. When I spoke to son and told him my decision to back off we were both crying. I told him that I loved him and gs (only one gs at that time) and it was the hardest decision but as he had seen I was treated as trash. I told him that the only thing she (dil) could not do is stopping me from loving him....or him loving me. I also told him that the first and most important thing was that he belong to his family(wife and son) and I just wanted him to be happy. He told me he would still come along to visit with gs and we kiss good-bye. Guess 1, it took about one month for her coming to my house with the whole family and jug me. We never spoke of the past.....everything was forgiven. When she was about to have the second baby....she was in another town....she phone me and told me to come, that she needed and loved me.
Of course we probably do not agree at times. But I never contradict her or try to lecture or advice her. I follow her rules....and my price is having the babies once a week (Today Friday) and they come on Sundays for barbecue. That is enough for me.
Things can change anytime. So dont lose hope....just act with dignity . We need to respect ourselves so that others will too.
Love
Nana, I've spoken to DS many times about all the suffering that everyone is going through and to try to get her to give us a chance and no luck, he defends her position and tells me to just leave it alone so I have. She hasn't come to our house since last Christmas but she's let DS and GD come to visit us and has had DH and I over a few times as well, it's not the most confortable feeling being there but we just play with GD and let everything else slide.
I don't see how anything can be resolved if we don't talk but for now it is what it is. DH thinks that maybe if they didn't live so far away things wouldn't have gotten this far but I don't know what else we can do at this point. I sure hope things change for the better, GD is getting older and pretty soon she will start to catch on, we don't want her growing up seeing all of this.
I have been where I've wanted to throw in the towel but it's very clear to us that DS loves us and wants to have a relationship with us so I'm hanging in there.
Guest 1
If you have spoken to your son and cant resolve anything, just be there for your son and granddaughter. You love your son and gc so it is very hard to let go. As I told you, what works for some dont work for others. God bless your soul.....you have a lot of love and patience.....hold on as long as your emotional stability is not at stake. I hope that things change for you. You never know....why not.
Will keep you in my prayers.
Love
Quote from: guest1 on October 15, 2010, 06:52:02 AM
Creme, I can relate to your story, I was a lot like your DIL when I had my first child, I thought she was a baby doll, LOL, was very jealous and over protective of her, didn't even want anybody to come near her, I quit working because I didn't want to leave her with anybody so if I thought that was the problem with my DIL I would understand and not feel so hurt. My DIL only displays that kind of behavior around us, she doesn't mind leaving GD at daycare or with anyone in her family. We did a good job raising our three children, by her admission, pure luck I suppose, but we can't be trusted with our GD. Well, at the present time we are trusted somewhat, every now and then, I guess because GD is older and starting to talk?
But, you're so right, we let the little things bother us and can't see past them and that ruins the relationship. For all we know our DIL could be afraid of us just like we are afraid of her, she may be waiting for us to make the first move towards mending the relationship just as we are waiting for her, however, because DS told us she didn't want to have anything to do with us and she even got angry at me for wishing her a "happy birthday" because she said I didn't mean it, we're afraid that whatever we do she's going to take it the wrong way.
Hi Guest, the bolded in your post caught my eye. I don't know if this is what your DIL is thinking, but this is my perspective and I know a lot of my other friends feel similar who have to put their kids in daycare. Just another perspective, but it stinks a lot of the time to have your kid in daycare. Just stinks. I disliked it a lot. And not when DD was just a baby, but when she was in preschool too. And there is still a stigma in some places about not being a stay at home mom and some kind of weird rivalry between working moms and SAHM's.
Anyway, my time off work was focused with DD in mind. I rarely need babysitters and when I do, I usually go to the easiest person to do it. In my sitch, I don't want it held over my head or talked about constantly that someone doesn't get to babysit DD or it's not fair because so and so gets so much time and they don't. It feels like a competition and it's the last thing I really want to deal with when I'm already struggling over feeling as if I don't get enough time with DD. It's easier to get a friend to do it because there isn't going to be this emotional warfare over who gets DD, who got her the most, there isn't some tally card. And the less the situation comes up, the less it will eventually be talked about is what I think. I don't want to keep going over it.
In my sitch, it would be easier to ask MIL if I knew she wasn't keeping some tally card, if she wasn't going to use this as an excuse to start up some antics again, if she wasn't going to find it a reason to start talking about it with DH again. Simply put, I'm not going to set up a schedule for her to babysit which I think is her goal. It's just not going to happen. Another friend of mine has a similar sitch with her own mother and when her Mom kept asking to have the baby every other weekend, my friend said "You're going to pay child support too?" It just doesn't feel good to have this hanging over your head and most people go away from bad feelings. Just my opinion.
I do agree with Pam1, Keeping score will get you hurt!. I admit so far I've been a lucky Grandparent! I've spent hours,weeks,months, and years with my grandchild!
But when DIL's family call's me or comes to town and she is working or can't get away for any reason? I've many times taken GS to met up with his other set of Grandparents and we have spent the day just letting them spend time with him. They LOVE him too! And that is clear to see. If the shoe were on the other foot? I would hope someone would do as much for me.
But because of how things are right now. Her Parents seeing GS even every month is impossible. So it would bad if they were to get on her back about how much time he spends here. They've tried once or twice. And just by watching (Not saying a Word!) I could see that my DIL just got angry and it pushed her further away. I know every case is different. But unless you are a bad person or something. I think most Parents do the very best they can to make sure we all get to spend time with our GC. It's not easy anymore being a young parent. They (A good many) are sometimes not only working Full time jobs and trying to take care of their families together. Things just cost so much anymore. I think many people feel as if they are "Dog Paddling " as fast as they can and don't need a fussy GP yelling it's my turn!
Of course I'm speaking about a case where ALL and EVERYTHING else is as Normal as normal gets anymore? LOL
How lucky you parents are to have so many options of people who love and care for your kids! You are truly blessed.
Quote from: Pen on October 16, 2010, 12:35:12 PM
How lucky you parents are to have so many options of people who love and care for your kids! You are truly blessed.
Once again Pen.. AGREE with you all the way! I remember when mine were little at times almost feeling down right sorry for myself. When it was Christmas time or Back to school shopping time, I would run to many people I knew and they would always have a grandparent along to help out.. I would be so jealous.. I am ashamed to admit it.. But I was!
My folks have always lived VERY far away and my ILs told me the day I gave birth to my first child to NEVER ask them to babysit.. they wouldn't! And they never did either. Not that I would of ever left my children with someone so unhappy as my MIL must of been judging from her behavior. You just can't be that hateful and be happy.?? IMO. But I used to hire my niece to go along to keep the kids busy while I stuck Santa in the trunk. LOL