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Okay, so things with the brother and SIL are still well, BAD. (They crashed a movie night I had planned with my BFF last night.) Anywho, I am very upset over the way our relationship is playing out and think the next time I might just explode. DH says that it is time we sit down with them and our mom to figure out what is going on. I am working on a letter to send. (or at least use as somewhat of a "script" when we call lol).

You ladies have been so wonderful in the advice area and even though my brother and his wife haven't been "nice" to us I really don't want to cut them out of our life without taking every step to prevent it. What do you guys think of the following?


Brother and SIL,
   DH and I have been sensing some pretty serious tension and negative feelings that you have towards us. We have been mulling the issue over for quite some time in an attempt to figure out why you would have these feelings towards us. Unfortunately, we are still a little clueless on the whole matter. Have we done something to offend you in some way that you feel the need to hurt us? Because we are feeling very hurt by your actions.
   We don't know what happened. Before the wedding we seemed to be getting along just fine. We would get together for game nights or go out to eat, but now we rarely see you. We have hosted game nights at our home that have been planned well in advance. When you have been asked to come, you have no other plans, but you go make them so that you won't have to come. We don't understand. We were very excited to be able to host our own game nights too, but it seems like you are boycotting them for some reason.
   We understand that you need to spend time with SIL's side of the family and we are not in any way trying to prevent that, but it seems that you no longer have time for our side. We love you guys very much. We want our relationship to be better. We want the time we spent together to be a positive and rewarding experience and not filled with the animosity that it has been lately. What have we done to make you feel this way? How can we make things better? We would like to be able to set aside some time to be able to discuss this. When will work for you?

If I were your SIL, this is how your letter would sound to me:

We were so good to you and we did all these things for you.  So why are you being so hurtful to us in return?

I'm sorry to say this, but your proosed letter would not make me want to "play nicely" with you.

The first rule is "Never send The Letter", no matter what you NEVER SEND A LETTER.  Never.  Ever.

Call or meet in person.  Simply say "Hey, I feel like you're angry with DH & I.  Are you angry with me or DH?"

You can also say "We really like you and SIL and we like having you over.  Am I inviting you for too many activities?  Do you need more notice?  What can I do to make it work?"

Personally, I don't think you should bring your Mom in on it.  I think it has the potential of further dividing the family.  You've said that your DB is still resentful of your Mom for his childhood so I wouldn't introduce someone else to the mix.

Quote from: Scoop on April 27, 2011, 12:26:56 PM
The first rule is "Never send The Letter", no matter what you NEVER SEND A LETTER.  Never.  Ever.

Call or meet in person.  Simply say "Hey, I feel like you're angry with DH & I.  Are you angry with me or DH?"

You can also say "We really like you and SIL and we like having you over.  Am I inviting you for too many activities?  Do you need more notice?  What can I do to make it work?"

Personally, I don't think you should bring your Mom in on it.  I think it has the potential of further dividing the family.  You've said that your DB is still resentful of your Mom for his childhood so I wouldn't introduce someone else to the mix.

opps.. finger happy here.. forgot the rest

I concur

Quote from: Ginny on April 27, 2011, 12:26:21 PM
If I were your SIL, this is how your letter would sound to me:

We were so good to you and we did all these things for you.  So why are you being so hurtful to us in return?

I'm sorry to say this, but your proosed letter would not make me want to "play nicely" with you.

Could you explain what it was that sounded this way to you? I don't understand

Quote from: Scoop on April 27, 2011, 12:26:56 PM
Personally, I don't think you should bring your Mom in on it.  I think it has the potential of further dividing the family.  You've said that your DB is still resentful of your Mom for his childhood so I wouldn't introduce someone else to the mix.

Mom is quite upset with them right now for the exact same issues. Do you still think she should be excluded from this? There is already a rift in the family and I don't know if DB/SIL actually realize it.

It sounded that way to me too.

Here's why:

The letter, while loaded with "you" statements really seems actually all about you and your DH. You are saying "I plan these things well in advance and I am excited. Then you cancel and now I am not so excited."

Your letter sounds like it is basing your happiness on what they may or may not do. And, if I wasn't angry or boycotting at all but was seriously busy...well, I think I'd just feel attacked. I would want to hang out even less.

Scoop said it best: less words, more direct contact. And you guys are adults...don't  drag your mom into the middle. If your mom has an issue with them, it is HER issue, not yours, so vice versa applies.

Quote from: AnonymousDIL on April 27, 2011, 11:40:04 AM
Brother and SIL,
   DH and I have been sensing some pretty serious tension and negative feelings that you have towards us.  Have we done something to offend you in some way?  We want our relationship to be better. How can we make things better? We would like to be able to set aside some time to be able to discuss this. When will work for you?

Does that sound better?

No.

Use Scoop's verbiage and make it a phone call and I think you'll fare much better. IMO.

I agree, sending letters are BAD. 

I also think that in these types of things you should only speak for yourself and talk privately.  Perhaps there are issues that your DB/SIL have with your mother that they don't want to discuss with you.  Or vice versa.

On the other hand, I do think you should prepare yourself for not getting the response you'd like as well. 

If you absolutely must send a letter instead of calling, this second letter is better but I would probably leave out the first sentence.  Try to avoid saying anything that points fingers (the "we sense serious tension and negative feelings from you" part is placing blame on them).  I would also change "When will work for you" to something that sounds less like a demand, such as "would you be open to discussing this matter with us?". 

Please, please do not bring your mom into this.  As the others have said, if she has issues with them, those are her issues to bring up and deal with.  Getting together and "ganging up" on them is a good way to put them on the defensive before any discussion even starts. 

ADIL, can I ask what they're specifically doing?

Permit me a pout. *pout!*  :)

I am so bad a verbalizing my thoughts and feelings on things (probably why am in an online forum versus person to person lol). I seriously RARELY talk. When I do I stutter and stammer and can't get the words out that I want to. I text, email, write letters, ANYTHING to avoid face to face confrontation.

You are right that a call is better. I'm just afraid that what will actually some out of my mouth with be "Why you bein' so *bleepy* dude?!" lol When you speak there is no backspace, delete, or undo.  :(

And the response I am expecting is for them to cut us off. But it would be their decision and we would hopefully at least know why.

Just be prepared for that response before you talk. Then you can direct your conversation honestly, without high hopes of avoiding it. It helps to be frank.

Also...PRACTICE saying it. I'm not great with confrontation either...but my therapist last year had me practice with DH and it got easier.

Besides, confrontation isn't always bad thing. It might be more intense than indirect communication, but it clears the air faster.

ADIL, sometimes it's better not to speak either.  Trust me lol

That's why I was asking what they were doing.  If it's not hanging out with you enough, you know I wouldn't bring it up.  I also wouldn't schedule anything with them, let them come to you.  Sometimes people don't know how to ask for space so they behave poorly to push people away.  It may have nothing to do with you at all.

Quote from: pam1 on April 27, 2011, 01:03:38 PM
ADIL, can I ask what they're specifically doing?

Anytime we see them, they have the condescending attitude that they are better than everyone else around them. They make the little snide comments indicating as much. My brother always has to be right about anything and everything. I am a tax accountant and DB will argue with me over tax stuff that I deal with on a daily basis. I just drop it and let him live in ignorance, but it is really starting to make me angry.

My SIL also feels that the world should and does revolve around her. I had a game night at my apartment once and SIL (without asking if it would be okay) invited some of her friends that I didn't even know. She knew that it wasn't a "public" kind of event, but SIL does what SIL wants and no one dares to cross her. At every event that I plan she somehow gets people treating her like the hostess. She sent a thank you to my wedding photographer for doing the wedding on such a short notice for HER (not me, HER. In the photos it sure looks like I'm the bride). Um, It was MY wedding, and I already thanked the photographer. It had nothing to do with my SIL. When we camp she invites her friends to come out and eat our food. (each couple is responsible for dinner for a night. I plan for the people who were invited, not for her extras).

Last year for my mom's b-day, DH and I decided to have a new family photo taken. Somehow, I don't know how, my SIL was the one who decided what we would wear. It was UGLY! I refused to wear it. I didn't know how a gift for my mom from me wound up with her deciding what it would look like.

If he wasn't my brother and she wasn't his wife, I would have cut these people out of my life a loooooong time ago.  :'(

And I hated the comments they made when we got our puppy. My brother is a cat person (I don't particularly like cats). He did not "approve" of us getting a dog. We had to have a very scaled back 1st Christmas due to lack of funds, but DH and I had decided that we wouldn't get anything for each other and would get a puppy. We found an adorable pup on craigslist. Soooo, my brother (who somehow thinks he is our financial advisor) starts with the 20 questions about How much did you pay for him? (None of his business, but it was only $75. It is not his decision how we spend our money!) and ending with the He will eat you out of house and home. Really? One dog will eat us out of house and home?

We just made a decision that HE didn't approve of so we must meet his wrath? It's like he has turned into my MIL!

ADIL, we need to swap crazy SIL's stories sometime lol.  I've got a doozy of one that makes MIL look sane :)

Personally, I just back off from relationships like that.  I've never found a person that you could actually talk to who behaves like that and who won't attack you instead.  The only thing I know of is to nip it in the bud, right then and there and voice it.  I think there isn't anything rude about saying, no I will not wear that, it's a Mothers Day gift for Mom, she's ok with our clothing choices etc.  And dropping it.

My crazy SIL likes to make us sit in assigned seats at dinner.  Ok, fair enough right?  Some families do that.  Ahhh but there is a catch, she doesn't tell you there is assigned seats until AFTER you've seated with your food.  Then cries, I mean BAWLS that you didn't sit in the right spot.  A 40 year old woman.

Must calm down.... Breathe....

So...
1. Call (do not write) them and invite them for dinner so we can talk in person
2. Practice What to say
3 Practice what to say without any curse words lol
4 Practice what to say without raising my voice
5 Practice what to say without Losing my voice lol
6 Prepare for the possibility that it could be the last time that I see my brother.  :'(

Quote from: pam1 on April 27, 2011, 01:28:15 PM
I've never found a person that you could actually talk to who behaves like that and who won't attack you instead.  The only thing I know of is to nip it in the bud, right then and there and voice it. 

So, I really just need to truly, honestly voice how I fell about it because if I don't I am enabling her to be the Queen Bee she thinks she is.....

Quote from: AnonymousDIL on April 27, 2011, 01:26:40 PM
We just made a decision that HE didn't approve of so we must meet his wrath? It's like he has turned into my MIL!

hey hey hey.. not ever negative action earns the title of MIL :)  he was behaving in a superior manner, he was being arrogant .. but none of these things necessarily equal a MIL :)

I agree with Pam....it may be better not to say anything at all and let them come to you.  It doesn't sound like they are all that pleasant to be around anyway and you might find that you enjoy having a break from them.  It also gives you time to prepare yourself for when they eventually ask you why the invites have stopped and decide how you want to respond and practice it.  My SILs were bullies (like the rest of their family with the exception of my DH), it took a long time for me to grow a backbone and stop letting one of them in particular walk all over me because I am not good at confrontation, either.  You don't have to put up with their treatment just because he's your brother. 

Quote from: Laurie on April 27, 2011, 01:52:25 PM

Quote from: AnonymousDIL on April 27, 2011, 01:26:40 PM
We just made a decision that HE didn't approve of so we must meet his wrath? It's like he has turned into my MIL!

hey hey hey.. not ever negative action earns the title of MIL :)  he was behaving in a superior manner, he was being arrogant .. but none of these things necessarily equal a MIL :)

I did say MY MIL lol and it just hit me how many qualities they really share... And his wife, DH said last night how much she is starting to act like his sister! LOL

ok Adil.. just practicing here :)

Quote from: free_at_last on April 27, 2011, 01:57:38 PM
I agree with Pam....it may be better not to say anything at all and let them come to you.  It doesn't sound like they are all that pleasant to be around anyway and you might find that you enjoy having a break from them.  It also gives you time to prepare yourself for when they eventually ask you why the invites have stopped and decide how you want to respond and practice it.  My SILs were bullies (like the rest of their family with the exception of my DH), it took a long time for me to grow a backbone and stop letting one of them in particular walk all over me because I am not good at confrontation, either.  You don't have to put up with their treatment just because he's your brother.

It's funny. This is what we had chosen to do. Then they crashed my plans last night. It wasn't even a movie they wanted to see.

I'll admit it. I'm a HUGE Rob Pattinson fan. So my BFF (also huge fan) made plans to see Water for Elephants. SIL HATES Rob. Sooo She wasn't invited to our little drool fest. Well, she crashed (with DB) and the night ended with her saying how bad it was blah blah blah. We knew she wouldn't like it, that's why we didn't invite her!

Quote from: AnonymousDIL on April 27, 2011, 01:34:38 PM

Quote from: pam1 on April 27, 2011, 01:28:15 PM
I've never found a person that you could actually talk to who behaves like that and who won't attack you instead.  The only thing I know of is to nip it in the bud, right then and there and voice it. 

So, I really just need to truly, honestly voice how I fell about it because if I don't I am enabling her to be the Queen Bee she thinks she is.....

Well no, you don't have to tell her how you truly feel.  It would probably feel very good to do so and if you mess up and let loose on her, I will buy you an ice cream.  BTDT

I meant more along the lines when she does something just verbally correct her on the spot.  "Why would I do that?"  is a very good way to stop someone in their tracks.  The more you try explaining the more people take it as a debate to tell you what you've done wrong.  "No" is also a complete sentence.  "That's an interesting assumption" is also another very polite term, it's great to use when someone is trying to discuss your finances or tell you what to do.

Or silence and a raised eyebrow. 

adil.. you have so much tension going on in your extended family.. mil divorce.. fil, sil.. I think this could escalate faster then you anticipate.. I mean really so what they invited themselves to the movie..

Oh speaking of movies.. my son's plane has landed... he is going to a movie with his sister tonight, they are doing an adult G rated evening since he is now taking some kind of medicine and can not drink for the next 9 months... then I'm picking him up Friday.. this is the first in 18 months that we will see him for more then a half day.

Dail.. don't do anything to push your brother away at this time.. if your mom has an issue with him.. let her deal with it... you just suck it up and see if things improve.

You know ADIL, when someone crosses my boundaries I take that as a learning experience.  So they crashed your movie night, I'd think it over and fix how they were able to do it in the first place if it bothered me enough.

The way to avoid people crashing and ruining your evening is to not tell anyone what you have planned except those that need to know.  If they coincidentally showed up at the same movie as you then there isn't much you can do about it except smile and make the best of it, but if they knew your plans and showed up trying to ruin your night, then there are ways to avoid it happening again.  They aren't respecting boundaries from what you have said here...bringing extra people to your events, inserting themselves in your plans when they weren't invited, thinking they should have any say in your how you manage your finances...he is your brother and you love him, but their behavior is upsetting you and it the negative feelings will probably only fester and grow if you don't start standing up for yourself to them.  By standing up for yourself I don't mean starting an argument, there are ways to get your point across without being confrontational (such as keeping it to yourself when you have a night out planned that does not include them, calmly asking them not to bring extra people to the next event you invite them to because you are only making enough food for those you are inviting, asking "why do you want to know?" when he asks questions about your finances, etc.). 

My DH took me to "Water for Elephants" last weekend....LOVED it.  It was strange seeing Rob Pattinson called "Jacob", though. 

If you absolutely must send a letter...don't. It will make it worse because no matter what you write the message is going to be seen as criticism.

Given all of that...I always wonder...and I do this myself...

Why do we get upset when someone who doesn't treat us right in the first place does not show up? If I told them my feelings about showing up and they DID listen and started showing up but were still treating me that way....would I have a good time?

It might be easier to just address their poor behavior when they DO finally show up right then and there...when they actually show up with uninvited people/complain/or are condescending.

How were they able to crash?

Well, My BFF and my SIL are Sisters. AND BFF lives with SIL. However, I do have BFF over for dinner almost every Thursday. Soooo, it isn't like they crash all the time.

Pretty complex! The one think I know is that you can't make people be any different than they are. They aren't going to change to please you/me. All that to possible is to work with our own reactions and to create and enforce boundaries that work for us.

ADIL - do you have a week before you can do this?

Try reading "The Dance of Anger" by Harriet Lerner.  It really is a good book about expressing your anger.  It validates your feelings of anger, and explains that under-reacting is just as bad as over-reacting to your feelings of anger.  When you under-reacting, you hold on to all of these feelings of resentment and you re-hash it over and over and then the next tiny thing happens and you blow up and over-react.  And then you have to eat crow, because you over-reacted and cursed.  The trick is to react appropriately.  And when you do this, you don't feel guilty for over-reacting or resentment for under-reacting - you feel GOOD.  (It really is such a great feeling.)

So, please take some time on this.  You really are at a fork in the road and if you confront them, it could go really well and clear the air or it could go south fast.

Go back and re-read what you've posted about your DB, because at one point, you said "they weren't angry, they really were just busy".  If you can come at this in a way that makes you both want to work together, it will go better.

The one thing I took away from our pre-marriage course was the idea that DH and I would have periods of being in-sync and periods of being out-of-sync and that eventually we would be in-sync again.  I think it's a good way to look at things, you and your DB may not necessarily be drifting apart, you may just be out-of-sync.  Don't worry, it can come back. 

One more thing, is your DB older or younger?  If he's older, he might be stuck in the idea of being "the big brother" who's always right ect.  If he's younger, he may be finding the role of "little brother who doesn't know anything" constricting.

Just something else for you to think about.

The in-sync/out-of-sync is a really good point. Sometimes DH and I just have it, other times we don't. This has been the same for a lot of people in my life. Patience and understanding sees me through to the in-sync parts again.

He has the "older brother is always right" syndrome coupled with the "dad died so I am the man in charge of the family" syndrome....

hey Scoop.. where did you find the pre-marriage course?  I suggested one for my dd and her bf but not sure where to start looking.

Adil.. you can see perfectly well where your brother is coming from, so you have a head start.. I'd try the book.. I think I might try the book.. finding that right amount of intensity seems to be my downfall

Scoop have you read any of her other books, she has a series of them

I've ordered the book. Soooo, will wait until I read it to do anything.

Mark Grungor's "Laugh Your Way to a Better Marraige" is awesome. It really helps to see how the male brain works in comparison to the female brain. It has helped me be more understanding of DH. He isn't trying to upset me. He is just wired differently.

1- We had to take a marriage preparation course because we got married Catholic.  I believe it's offered at most every church.  I have to say we thought it was really lame.  But I did take that one nugget of advice to heart and it has served me well.

2- I didn't realize Harriet Lerner had more books, I'll definitely go look them up.

ADIL - your poor brother!  Male-brain, older-brother, Dad-died-while-he-was-young, married-and-head-of-his-own-family-now, there are certainly a MESS of hurdles for your relationship with him right now.

I think you should laugh your way to a better relationship with your brother too.  It's better than the alternative!

At one time some Catholic churches offered pre-marital counseling to non-Catholics as well.  And for a fee.  I don't know if they are still doing it but I heard that they were good. 

Quote from: Scoop on April 28, 2011, 05:41:21 AM

ADIL - your poor brother!  Male-brain, older-brother, Dad-died-while-he-was-young, married-and-head-of-his-own-family-now, there are certainly a MESS of hurdles for your relationship with him right now.

Our dad died when he was 19 and I was 17 (2 days before my 18th b-day) A "replacement" father wasn't needed or wanted. I think he reallly needs to chill. (And between you and me, SIL is "head" off their family. He is sooo whipped!)

We had to do the pre-marraige course too. Ours was also LAME. It didn't prepare us at all. We found this one after we got married. Sure wish we would have had it before lol

I've started laughing at all the crazy stuff MIL/SIL do... I don't know how I got to that point though. If I could get there with my DB, things would probably be better.

It'll probably just take a little time ADIL.  You've got a sense of humor, it'll start coming to you.  It really helped me when I saw I wasn't the only one who had issues with them.  Now my MIL's "target" is a 5 year old girl.  **shaking my head** 

ADIL - my Dad died 2 years ago, when my brother was 40 and I was 37 and my brother *STILL* pulled the "Man of the Family" act.  I think it's natural to them.  At the time, my Mom and I just rolled our eyes and let him do what he needed to do. 

And also, I'm sure it's frustrating for him to WANT to be the man of HIS family but having to compete with SIL for it.  How long have they been married again?  My Mom always said that it takes 3 years to find out how you will actually be as a married couple.  The first year, you're on your best behaviour because you want it to 'work' so badly.  The second year, it's not so critical, so you let things slide a bit and the third year is when you're being totally yourself.  So maybe DB and SIL are still negotiating things between themselves.

I hope you don't think I'm defending your brother.  I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, trying to get you to see it from a different perspective.

HaHa! They've been married 3 years last October and think they are marraige gurus or something....

I think that is hilarious. DH and I's first few months were HORID! So much for that wanting to make it work. We were NOT on our best behavior at all. I guess I've already jumped to year 3. I am already completely myself around DH. I hope he is completely himself around me or I am going to be surprised! lol We have finally settled into happiness (as long as MIL/SIL and DB/SIL aren't involved lol)

Sooooo, should I now be depressed that this is how they are going to be as a married couple? Where SIL is the center of their universe? Where SIL's family is the only one that matters? What a depressing thought.... But if that's the way it's going to be, I guess we have to deal with it.

I am definitely looking forward to reading that book. I must learn to be more assertive in the moment instead of letting things nag me. SIL is not going to like the new me because I will probably come across as a you-know-what. DB thinks I am one now sooooo.....

Men are funny. I will never fully understand why they are the way they are.

IDK, ADil...

DH and I were terrible our first year. Maybe your DB and SIL aren't out of the honeymoon phase yet?

Hi Anon.  I am not sure what your goal is.  You seemed bother by both too much familiarity (crashing movie) and not enough (cancel game night).  Your letter seems to indicate you want more time from them.   But, everything else in the thread would indicate you want space from these folks.

If your goal is to "make" DB "feel" something different, that he does not know everything, that he is not substitude dad, it's not possible and not your "job" to change his feelings.  Let him be him.  If your goal is to make SIL realize she is not center of the universe, again, not your "job" and not possible.  To tell someone how she should treat her own family when she doesn't ask is not appropriate, and to make comparisons somehow always comes across as petty scorekeeping.  Who SIL likes to hang out with is up to her.  If I've learned nothing, it's that telling someone she should hang out with you more, isn't going to make anyone want to hang out with you more.  And I'm assuming you want her to want to be with you, not feel obligated to be with you.

Leave mom out of it.  Mom is a big girl.  Mom can handle her issues.  In fact, if you made it worse for Mom, which is a real risk here, you'd feel awful.  Mind your own relationships and trust mom can mind hers.

I agree a letter would be a disaster.  I'll take it a step further. Something about prefacing a conversation with "we need to talk" automatically puts people on the defense.  If my DH, or anyone said it to me (boss, mom), a pit would form in my stomach immediately.  "Uh oh: trouble ahead."

What you can do is decide how you react to things. I suggest you take it case by case.  SIL invites extras? Next time make clear you have limited seating and the invite is just for her.  BFF told SIL what exact movie, what exact time and what exact theatre?  That sounds like an invite to me!  "I'm going out with Anon" or "Anon and I are catching a movie" followed by "not sure which one yet" would cover it.  No crashers and no confrontation.

DB offers unsolicited advice.  He sounds like a lot of people I know!  I listen, mmm-hmmm, and do what I want.  You know DB likes cats better than dogs, so adjust your expectations.  You don't need his approval of your pets to enjoy them.  Another way you can handle it is playfully. The comment about money and house and home?  A silly "Thanks brother, I dont know what we'd do without you." Allows you both to feel okay about it. 

I know you do some of this sometimes.  Like when he offers wrong accounting advice.  Examine your feelimgs, ask yourself why it bothers you so much.  Is it because perhaps you seek some validation from him that you are the expert?  He's not a father figure, so you can seek and find your validation elsewhere (like at work).  See his arrogance as who he is, not a reflection of how he sees you, and you will become amused by his ignorance instead of annoyed.

Another way people handle someone when nerves seem to be getting frayed, is distance.  It's very possible DB and SIL sense your frayed nerves when you're around them, and give you space.  Experience occasional withdrawal as a cooling off period, or a much needed (by both of you) breather, and you won't feel rejected.

Signed,
Sassy
since 2009
Full member

A-HA!  See ADIL, this is why the book will help you because it specifically addresses the idea that women feel as if they are a 'you know what' when they are expressing their anger and it's just not true.

In the meantime, practice expressing your anger at the smaller things.  For example, one time I got over charged at the gas station, and I waited in line again to speak to the cashier, she was quite rude to me, but I did NOT back down.  She ultimately gave me my $1 back, with a sneer over it being "just a dollar".  Well, I then went and e-mailed the corporation about her behaviour.  Under-reacting would mean that I would still be stewing over HOW RUDE she was to me.  Over-reacting would have been cursing her out.  As it was, I really feel like I did the right thing.  And I can still go back to that gas station and look her in the eye, without giving her stink-eye either!  I tell you, it's LIBERATING when you can react appropriately to your feelings of anger.

Quote from: Sassy on April 28, 2011, 08:16:46 AM
I know you do some of this sometimes.  Like when he offers wrong accounting advice.  Examine your feelimgs, ask yourself why it bothers you so much.  Is it because perhaps you seek some validation from him that you are the expert?  He's not a father figure, so you can seek and find your validation elsewhere (like at work).  See his arrogance as who he is, not a reflection of how he sees you, and you will become amused by his ignorance instead of annoyed.

Another way people handle someone when nerves seem to be getting frayed, is distance.  It's very possible DB and SIL sense your frayed nerves when you're around them, and give you space.  Experience occasional withdrawal as a cooling off period, or a much needed (by both of you) breather, and you won't feel rejected.

Thanks, Sassy.

Lot's of good advice. You're right. I guess I'm not sure what I really want. Well, not ture. I want to slap them up along side the head and make them behave! lol I know that I can't change the way they are. That's why I'm having such a hard time with this. DH and I had come to the conclusion to stop inviting them to stuff (We plan stuff so far in advance that the next round of planning hasn't arrived yet lol). I agree that space is probably best for us. It just makes me so sad (and angry) because he is my brother and he shouldn't want to lose me. I guess I jut don't matter to him.  :-\

And you are absolutely right. I most definitely seek validation from him. We were raised with DB always being the "perfect" one and Mom always comparing me to him. It sucked! I was never good enough, he was always better. He always has to be right. I know that he isn't always right, but I still want validation from HIM. Why?! Any book for me on this one? Will it be in the Dance of Anger?

I get plenty of validation from other sources. One of our college professors told me she thinks that I'm actually smarter than he is. I don't care if I am smarter, I just want him to admit that I'm not stupid. :-\ But, it is a mission in futility. He will never ever say that. He is incapable of having a non-competitive relationship with anyone.

I know what I need to do. It just makes me sad to have to do it.... We can only have a "holiday" relationship with them.  :-\

Quote from: Scoop on April 28, 2011, 08:34:11 AM
A-HA!  See ADIL, this is why the book will help you because it specifically addresses the idea that women feel as if they are a 'you know what' when they are expressing their anger and it's just not true.

In the meantime, practice expressing your anger at the smaller things.  For example, one time I got over charged at the gas station, and I waited in line again to speak to the cashier, she was quite rude to me, but I did NOT back down.  She ultimately gave me my $1 back, with a sneer over it being "just a dollar".  Well, I then went and e-mailed the corporation about her behaviour.  Under-reacting would mean that I would still be stewing over HOW RUDE she was to me.  Over-reacting would have been cursing her out.  As it was, I really feel like I did the right thing.  And I can still go back to that gas station and look her in the eye, without giving her stink-eye either!  I tell you, it's LIBERATING when you can react appropriately to your feelings of anger.

I MUST HAVE BOOK NOWWWWWW!!!!! LOL

I had a similar experience with a manager at a local store. He was really rude. DH was 50 feet away and heard every word. I went home, called and emailed the customer service hotline about it. Made a facebook group to not shop there, etc. I got a call from the manager guy a few days later and he apologized! I was floored! I honestly didn't think it would make a difference, but somehow the fact that he got in trouble for it, made me feel really guilty.

There's a lot of insight right there.   I can tell you what I think you already know: DB definitely doesn't think you're stupid.  People just don't feel competitive against those who aren't considered worthy opponents.  (Serena Williams is competitive.  If she played against me on the court, she wouldn't feel competitive.)  Your brother competes with you because he knows you're not stupid.  Yet....what you want is: for him to admit you're not stupid. When you know that's something he would never, ever say.   Hmmmm....Is that you being competitive against him?  That strong desire you have to overpower what you know is his "never, ever" nature.  Do you want to be able to override him and his nature to be able to claim your victory? To conquer, if you will? He just won't let you conquer him, will he?    :P

Quote I agree that space is probably best for us. It just makes me so sad (and angry) because he is my brother and he shouldn't want to lose me. I guess I jut don't matter to him.  ...........
I know what I need to do. It just makes me sad to have to do it.... We can only have a "holiday" relationship with them. 

Think about what I said about cooling off and breathing room not being rejection.  Because it's honestly not.  The purpose of that distance is not the distance itself - but to save the relationship.  Think about your friends.  I have some that I see once or twice a year and when we connect it's wonderful.  But if we spoke every day, week or even every month the relationship would burn itself out fast.  People aren't perfect.  We love 'em flaws and all.  Space lets us miss them, lets us forget the worst parts. 

Your DB would get on your last nerve if he spent more time telling you how to live.  When you remind yourself why he does it (warns you about dangers he sees, informs you with his misguided information), it's because he cares.  Yep.  Annoying way of showing it, sure.  Comes from the place of because he gives a hoot, yep.  That validation you seek from him?  Maybe you do see him as a father figure? Except of course he's not your father and can't show the love like a father like a father would.  He can only show it in his own way.  Which for him evidently, is to tell you when he's worried about you.

Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing.  You don't need to make any decisions.  Give them space.  When making plans, make sure you're clear about what you tell them and what you don't.  When something is way out of line, learn to react appropriately and politely, like scoop has suggested.

Accept who he is, even if he is the kind of person who gets anxiety when making "Plans".  They both sound informal.  You sound more structured.  Accept that you just have different styles. Why not assume the best about his intentions.  Such as, he crashed the Rob Pattison movie SIL apparently felt invied to when given every last detail about it, because he had some free time come up and he wanted to see YOU! .  You will be able to better enjoy the time you spend with him. 

Don't worry about what A Brother or A S-I-L "should" be doing to fulfill their title roles.  Just like you don't want them thinking about what you and DH "should" be doing, right? Don't worry about defining the relationship ("holiday" and the like). You do like that structure, but it doesn't always work in relationships.  Just be your best you (all you can control, after all) and let it unfold.

Love,
Sassy
since 2009
Full member

Wow, Sassy. You are just too insightful lol....

It would be nice to think that he cares. He really is just, Hmmm, what's the word? Relationally retarded? lol at least when it comes to me. He does not like my DH. His advice is always for me to divorce him. Our family doesn't believe in divorce because it goes against our religious beliefs! Why offer this as advice?!

Soooooooooooo, knowing that he loathes my DH (and I honestly don't understand why) maybe he did crash the other night to see me  :) because he was quite annoyed when DH showed up (although he didn't really talk to me before DH was there). BUT, I feel he needs to learn to deal with the fact that I am married to DH till death do us part.

And I do love structure. Love, love, love, love ,LOVE it! I am a list maker. I like to know how things are going to be etc. I am ALWAYS on time. If I say I will be there at 1:00 I am not there at 12:58 or 1:02 I am there at 1:00! (My brother apparently lacks the ability to tell time lol). I guess I need to work on this.  :-\

Your structure-love is part of you, it gives you happiness, and don't you change that !  8)  Just try not to apply it to people you love, cause people, well, they just don't seem to fit.  And, of course, be sure not to expect other people to love it as much as you do.   Some people hear "date and time" even for social activities and it really feels like a looming deadline, a test, a demand.   :(

What I mean by applying stucture to people is this: "A SIL should spend as much time with her husband's family as her own family."  The idea of applying structure there, certainly seems fair in theory.  But imposing that structure in practice leaves out the pesky "people" part.  And...the little detail that telling any wife how she "should" be spending her spare time, what to do with her husband's relatives, how their marriage should work, is kind of butting into their marriage, isn't it.  Which is exactly what you don't like when your DB does to you.

DB may learn to deal with the fact that you're married to DH, eventually.  Or, he may not.  You, however can quickly and always deal with someone who says rude things about your husband.  Or who tries to butt into your marriage.  Try out some polite phrases to try as soon as DB brings up divorcing DH.  For example:  "I would appreciate it if you didn't talk about my husband that way to me."  Even "It hurts me when you talk about him, like that to me. Let's talk about something else." If DB pushes, be clear "This subject is not up for discussion. Did you see the Dodgers were sold?"  Find one that suits you, that you can say to shut it down.  Of course "closed subject" means you can't complain to DB about DH - ever.   Keep your boundaries, and what DB thinks about your marriage isn't something you have to hear about.

Love,
Sassy
since 2009
Full member

Yup, "What you think of me (my marriage) is none of my business!"

Quote from: Sassy on April 28, 2011, 10:24:23 AM
And...the little detail that telling any wife how she "should" be spending her spare time, what to do with her husband's relatives, how their marriage should work, is kind of butting into their marriage, isn't it.  Which is exactly what you don't like when your DB does to you.

Interesting.... I've never told DB that I think they need to spend more holidays, etc. with our side, but I certainly wouldn't have viewed it as butting into their marraige.

I did ask DB to tell us what holidays he was spending with SIL's family so we could plan accordingly. I mean, if they are spending Easter with her side and we can't all get together we might as well spend Easter with DH's family. Like they spend Christmas Eve with her family so we spend Christmas Eve with DH's family.

Anywho, when I asked he bit my head off over it.

DB's IL's live about 20-25 minutes away. My IL's live an hour and a half+ away. He lectures us about the whole fitting both sides into the same day (funny since he has never once actually tried this) which with the travel factor doesn't seem real feasible for us. I'm a "every other holiday" kind of girl. Easter his side. Thanksgiving my side, sort of thing. Sooooooooooo, I guess we just aren't speaking the same language.

Hah, ADIL -- we are dealing with this too.  I just posted a thread about gifts up top.

I do think it's growing pains.  On my side we've given up trying to coordinate anything, it's see you when we see you.  It's impossible IMO to try and lock another grown person into holiday plans.  It's extraordinarily frustrating when someone tries to do that to you.  I've been biting my lip with DH's sisters when all I really want to say is "make your own dang plans and quit worrying about mine." 

The thing my SIL's don't really realize is that we don't have the same exact situation as they do.  They might be free to come up with an every other holiday type of thing, we aren't.  And I don't want to either lol.  And I don't feel like explaining or justifying it, I wish they'd get over it and realize this is how it is.

ADIL, is it also possible that your DB/SIL see you as ganging up with your Mom? 

Quote from: pam1 on April 28, 2011, 11:09:00 AM
ADIL, is it also possible that your DB/SIL see you as ganging up with your Mom?

I mentioned the "holiday scheduling" thing once and never will again. I didn't know it was so "intrusive" to some. My bad!

I doubt he sees it that way because he doesn't even know she's mad at him. I love my mom, but she is even worse than me with verbalizing her emotions.  :-\ He would probably be shocked to know how much it is hurting her. Much like he is shocked that I know more about what is going on in mom's life. Why? Because she calls me to talk. Why? Because I listen to her and don't judge. Why? Because I am wired like a woman and he isn't lol Plus, DB doesn't like mom's BF and I do....  :-\

I know it is because I'd like for us all to be close like we were before, and life has happened and it just doesn't work any more.  :-\ Soooo, yes, I look ":what has changed" and do the classic blame it on the SIL when it isn't at all her fault. Good Lord! She must think I am the SIL from hell.

ADIL, the thing is -- you generally don't have to say much for other people to sense it or feel the tension.  I would think probably your DB/SIL have picked up on it.

I wonder if they can feel the tension up on their pedestals??? lol

You'd think they would want to do something to alleviate the tension.  :-\

I know when I have the IL's over there is always tension but it isn't directed at DH and I lol it's between MIL/FIL/SIL. but boy is it awkward. It makes me want to crawl into a hole.... Maybe I better have something to drink before they come over the next time. It does calm me down lol

You're absolutely right about the not speaking same language.  The two of you have such different styles the signals get crossed.  Your DB's talk of fitting both sides in the same day but never trying it, sounds like a noble, if ineffectual, sign that seeing you on holidays is important to him.  The communication and execution gets muddled, but seeing you on holidays is on his mind.

You would feel comfy and secure if DB and SIL adopted how you like do the "every other holiday" thing.  You were looking for assurance that this holiday would happen here, that one there.  No one's left out, no hurt feelings.  It provides predictability and security in an unpredictable world.  You were trying to find out his schedule, so you can work around it.  How much more accomodating can a sister be, right?

But DB feels comfy and secure when he knows he's not disappointing anyone.  He likes to wake up and see how he feels before he decides what to do.  He doesn't want to be locked down by someone else's expectations.  While biting someone's head off is never the right thing to do (insert Ozzy Osbourne joke here) in DB's language, DB felt like your attempts at holiday accomodation, were you trying to "nail him down". Whether for the next month or 8.  An imposition, or even an invasion.  You were "pushing" (to him) for an advance commitment on someone who loathes advance commitments.  He's thinking, what if he committed now for Memorial Day then a friend invited him fishing.  Now he can't go because months before someone "wrangled" (his perception) a promise he never intended to keep.  He will not be wrangled! Hence, the chomp.

Neither style is right, neither is wrong.  (Okay, head biting is wrong).  It's just different.  When you're sending him a love message, he takes it as a pressure message (a demand).  When he sends a love message, you take it as a "he doesn't care" or "he crashed my plans" message.

You could look up demand sensitivity, if you want to understand his thinking style better.  Demand sensitivity goes like this: "I really should clean the bathroom today > I have to clean the bathroom now > I'm not being forced to clean no bathroom! I'll clean it when I want to!"  (Do that for a week and you can imagine what the bathroom looks like!). 

Please don't look at my bathroom.

Love,
Sassy
since2009
Full member

Laurie's got the boxed wine

QuoteYou'd think they would want to do something to alleviate the tension. 

That's exactly what the breathing room, elbow room, cooling off, what have you, is for.

Oh! Missed that, got too close. I think he elbowed me in the eye! lol

Holey Moley! I just looked that up! That is sooooo my brother! That makes perfect sense. Mom pretty muched controlled his every move growing up (until our dad passed) and now well, his wife definitely controls him. Boy, now I feel like a big meanie. Okay, when dealing with DB, less "advance" planning. I don't entirely understand it, but I don't want him to see it as a demand.

I'm the opposite. Our dad was killed very suddenly--went to work and didn't come home. Soooo I need the structure and assurance of different activities. Every thing is always "routine" with me. I get up at the same time, get home at the same time, grocery shop the same day. But I do sometimes alter it if I have to. I'm not completely inflexible lol. I have to shop tonight instead of tomorrow so DH can make his potato salad tomorrow. But the more routine the better for me. Gee, that is really controlling.

Coming in late with my tuppence worth .....
My big brother seems to big similar to yours .....he always likes to be the BIG brother , and he never likes to be tied down
to any schedules . Definitely doesn't like to be told times or dates .Always trying to give advice , never listens to anything I have to say .Always treats me like his wee sister ....when told about family events , he might make it .
Gets me mad at times , but then he's my brother , and I love him .  :)

Quote from: Laurie on April 27, 2011, 02:10:38 PM
Oh speaking of movies.. my son's plane has landed... he is going to a movie with his sister tonight, they are doing an adult G rated evening since he is now taking some kind of medicine and can not drink for the next 9 months... then I'm picking him up Friday.. this is the first in 18 months that we will see him for more then a half day.

Enjoy your baby boy, Laurie...and please thank him for his service.   

Laurie

May this time with your son be wonderful

Love

Thank you Nana..  I woke early this morning thinking about him.. it's been 18 months since we've spend more then minutes together.  My dh is coming home today from a trip, I'll pick my ds up as he has been with his sister for 2 days.. I'll hope that he has an ounce of energy left after his time with her.. seriously that girl will run you to death.  Oh this morning he is meeting her fiance for the first time.. they have so much in common they'll probably dislike each other on the initial meeting :)  Of course I was asked to arrive at lunchtime, then someone suggested that we all do lunch together... this sounds like a well thought out  plan to get me to buy everyone lunch. Doesn't  it sound like that?

Better bring your wallet, Laurie!

Yeah I thought so too :) and my camera

Anon you are not a meanie!  You love your DB.  He loves you.  No need to beat yourself up.  I do see a real foundation of love and family under all of your difficulties.  This wouldn't make sense to try, expect for all the love you really do have to build on. A man shows up for a Robert Pattison film because he knows you're going to be there -- he's got love.

I learned about demand sensitivity (which is different from demand resistance) from a cute little book called Too Perfect.  Now that you know more about DB thinking and the language he speaks, my hope is you can begin to better receive and give that love. 

You don't have to stop making advance plans with DB.  You can just approach and phrase them differently, and he will feel your love.  Don't mention anything more than about a week out, if you can. The word "want" is supposed to be effective in reducing the sensation of demand.

Call on a Monday, Wednesday, or even Friday afternoon about an informal Friday night. (I consider game nights informal). "DB, I don't need a yes or no from you.  Just wanted to let you know DH and I are having people over Friday.  If you guys are free and get home from work and aren't too tired, you can stop over.  I'm only planning for 6 or 8, so we won't have room for extras this time, but if just you and SIL want to stop by, after 8 would be fine."

This will be hard for you, at first.  I know!  What you're doing is not imposing your desire for structure on him.  But you shouldn't completely sublimate your needs all the time to accomodate his style, either.  A girl needs to be able to plan something!   If you need to know a set number for something, like a formal sit-down dinner, perhaps that's when you might consider whether inviting him makes sense or not. 

It seems that your DB behaves this way anyway, and he's always going to do what he wants.  So I don't think you approaching things this way will change whether he comes or not.  What I think it will change, is how both of you experience your relationship.  For the better.   

Laurie .....give your guy an extra hug from me ..... :)

Oh I will LL .. his sister and he had a blast yesterday.. today he is meeting the new guy and they are as we speak doing the manly guys game.. went out shooting.. I do see a little competition starting up lol   .. Little history.. both attended A&M University, both were in the corps at the same time although they never met.. the two corps groups of course had to hate each other.. Band corps were the Queers/ Other guys were the Turds .. these are acceptable names at the university (please don't edit me :) )  The fiance is a police officer and trying out for the swat team.. the brother is certified in several different weapons  (shhhh my money is on the cop)

Ok.. have everything ready to throw in the oven for dinner.. and I'm off and running.. you ladies have a fantastic royal day

Soooooooo, I thought that we would try the whole wait till last minute to invite DB to game nights. Nope! Not now. Sure DB/SIL are going to her brother's b-day party tonight. Oh, wait what's that a Facebook post stating she can't wait to see him tomorrow? What? Thought she was going tonight. Couldn't come to our game night because of it. Nope, they will never be invited again. I need some serious cool off time. Going to take a looooooong time.

Count me in, ADIL, so long as you don't have that orange jello shredded carrot stuff!  :)   Enjoy your evening with dh. Sometimes the best fun is had when other plans fall through.   

How's your son, Laurie?  Hope he gets a decent break before having to return to duty...

O.M.G! What was that?! Sooooooo, after we read the comment on her brother's wall, DH (without my knowledge) sent them a text to see if they would like to come? She responds No. He asks Why? She responds that they are going to her brother's b-day party and DH calls her a liar (Well, she DID just lie didn't she?).... Then the storm starts all over MY facebook wall because DH doesn't allow them to post on his wall.

DB puts these long winded posts on which quite frankly made him look bad so I took it down. (he started it by saying he didn't want to post it publicly, but DH wouldn't let him text it. What? Did he lose our email or phone number or something?) Well, I put a response saying that I love them and hope that this can be put behind us. SIL posts "something very not nice" Then DB posts another post that I also took down. He now has it as his FB status. I posted the text messages in response to his status. We will not be speaking to them again.... Ever.... Period... End of Story...

I tried yo give them the benefit of the doubt on things, and well, they just don't deserve it. They aren't worthit. We had a wonderful game night without them.

Why do I still feel sad?

Because it is sad.

ADIL, you might need to mourn the loss of a relationship you didn't really have, if that makes sense. And then move on. Please take care of yourself.

It took me a long, long time to get this lesson, ADIL, but when I did, it didn't hurt so terribly bad.  I'm sorry ADIL...

http://www.donotgiveup.net/LetThemGo.htm

Quote sent them a text to see if they would like to come? She responds No. He asks Why? She responds that they are going to her brother's b-day party and DH calls her a liar (Well, she DID just lie didn't she?)....

When someone declines an invitation,  it's most polite to reply "Sorry you can't join us" or "Too bad, you'll be missed."  The only situation I can think of where demanding a reason could possibly be appropriate is work.  That's because it's not an actual invitation, but an order or a summons.  I admit, I am wondering, does DH do this to ALL guests when they decline game night, or only the ones you're related to.

I understand why DH asked her "why".  I hope he comes to understand that was not at all polite of him to do.  His initial action towards SIL was quite rude, although it's possible he's not familiar with good hosting manners.   However, after treating SIL rudely, he then threw out what he had to have known was "fighting words". He called someone a "liar" because her social "excuse" (which she should never have been asked to supply in the first place) wasn't good enough.   Does it seem likely SIL would reply "You're right, I'm a liar, and now we can't wait to come over and play with you"?

I am not taking DB's side.  His facebook rant is absurd, and you're right, he makes only himself look bad.  Difficult family relationships and facebook don't ever mix.  (Fortunately there is a very simple solution to that).  I am explaining how I see what happened.  DB and SIL declined an invitation.  (My first thought upon reading was the reason being they probably don't enjoy the other people who go, since SIL has brought along her own buddies before, but didn't want to say they don't enjoy that mix of friends).   That "no" could have and should have been the end of that.   I suspect DH took their "no" as personal rejection.   Perhaps DH expresses his hurt as anger.  The putting her on the spot,  the demanding reasons as if he has authority over her, when he has no place to, (and which can only drive people away, not draw them close), the calling SIL names...it really appears to this observer that DH wanted to pick a fight with them, and well, he got what he wanted. 

Quote from: Sassy on May 01, 2011, 12:15:48 AM
I am not taking DB's side.  His facebook rant is absurd, and you're right, he makes only himself look bad.  Difficult family relationships and facebook don't ever mix.  (Fortunately there is a very simple solution to that).  I am explaining how I see what happened.  DB and SIL declined an invitation.  (My first thought upon reading was the reason being they probably don't enjoy the other people who go, since SIL has brought along her own buddies before, but didn't want to say they don't enjoy that mix of friends).   That "no" could have and should have been the end of that.   I suspect DH took their "no" as personal rejection.   Perhaps DH expresses his hurt as anger.  The putting her on the spot,  the demanding reasons as if he has authority over her, when he has no place to, (and which can only drive people away, not draw them close), the calling SIL names...it really appears to this observer that DH wanted to pick a fight with them, and well, he got what he wanted.

I couldn't agree more. I am very irritated for DH for doing this. I don't really know why he did. He asked me if I wanted to still invite them after I read that they weren't going to her brother's and I explicitly stated NO. I don't know why he felt the need to invite them then.

As far as not liking the people who would be there. Nope, DB and SIL are NOT above stating they don't like our friends. They have told us that as a reason to not go to a game night before. We told them that time that XXXX's weren't coming. They still didn't come. Not a problem, we had a great time without them. It definitely bothered me that they stated they weren't coming because we don't like XXXX's becuase, well, they have a LOT of friends that I don't like, but I would never say that I don't like them because it would be rude.

I feel like I am the only adult in a room of 3 year olds (DH included).  :-\

ADIL, we've got that going on with DH's family.  It's a hard subject to tackle, the best I've found is to lead by example.  I try not to get pulled into giving reasons for declining and I don't expect them to give a reason. 

No matter what, it still hurts when relationships are damaged or lost. ADIL, your situation isn't completely dissimilar to some MIL/DIL/DS/DM blow-ups, so I'm sure a lot of us can relate. It is tempting when you're hurting, or seeing a loved one in pain, to question their claims or to speak out in anger as your DH did. As you know, it doesn't help, unfortunately.

I'm so tempted to pin down my DIL & DS sometimes, especially when I'm feeling slighted, lied to or less loved than DIL's FOO. So far DH & I have been able to keep our feelings to ourselves, but I understand how quickly they can surface.

Give it time, ADIL. Take the same advice the MILs get when things go wrong....do the things that will put you back on track, move forward, try not to obsess about it. If you are thrown into a situation where you'll have to interact, be polite but don't engage. When DB & SIL see that you are able to step back, they may feel comfortable about approaching and you can rebuild your relationship (if you choose.) Best wishes.

QuoteI am very irritated for DH for doing this. I don't really know why he did. He asked me if I wanted to still invite them after I read that they weren't going to her brother's and I explicitly stated NO.

Has DH apologized to you?

QuoteWell, I put a response saying that I love them and hope that this can be put behind us.

Has DH apologized to SIL?

I think I'd let the dust settle and everyone move through their anger before apologies started going out.

Yes, your DH could have handled it differently, but don't let the problems with your DB put a divide between you and DH as well. Wait until he's rational to talk about all of this stuff.

I'm sorry about this, but you are doing the right thing by inviting everyone else over for game night and having fun yourself. They don't necessarily have to be cut off, but I'm not sure I'd be inviting them for game night anymore. I wouldn't give them the slightest opportunity to wreck it.  Let them come calling.

DH has apologized to me. He has not apologized to SIL. I won't ask him to do that. She DID lie and he called her on it. No, he should have been mature enough to let it go, but she shouldn't have lied. Plus, I don't think she would accept his apology because she is a self-righteous, self-centered Queen Bee. She is STILL dragging this on FB. I pulled the texts directly from DH's phone and posted them when she made her first attack against DH, she's saying they aren't right. I am not saying another word to her because she is incapable of behaving in a mature manner. I am through with the B that my brother chose to marry and I am through with him too. Why should I be sooo sad when they are the ones pulling this? They are dead to me.  :'(

Things will look different with time, ADIL.  Hurt people hurt people...  You're both upset & likely to say hurtful things.  Give it time to cool down & then perhaps you & db can calmly discuss it.  He's still your db & you his ds.  He always will be, whether you speak to him again or not.  We can't change people to be who we want them to be, not even when they're our own dc.  Try to accept db as he is, warts & all.  Just don't count on them for game nights...  I just spent time with dd & gc for the first time in 4 months.  Though I wish we were higher on dd's priority list, I don't love her any less.  It hurts though, I'll give you that...

Hey ADIL.  I've been out of pocket so just now catching up with all of this.  Sassy and Scoop have given you excellent advice.  I know you are angry about what DH did on FB and the responses.  When family and friends air out their personal dirty laundry in a public forum full of family members and friends, it doesn't do anyone any good.  It provides entertainment to every one else, and makes someone look like a fool, which makes that person have to try and make the other look foolish and so on.  It's a never ending cycle and needs to be stopped.  I would post that you hate that all of this has happened on fb, and that it is not the right thing for anyone to do, so you are blocking them from writing on your page.  Let it end there and let everyone have a time-out.  If anyone else wants to talk about it, end that by simply saying, "I'm not having this conversation, but thanks for your concern."

I also know that you are upset, but remember we are not supposed to use any signs, symbols or abbreviations that take the place of curse words that are easily figured out.  I could easily figure out yours so I am asking that you remember that for the future.  I truly hope you can reconcile this relationship, as I know you love your DB.

Quote from: Laurie on April 27, 2011, 02:01:58 PM
ok Adil.. just practicing here :)

Sure...come into this category and start practicing!  ;D  I hope you are having a most wonderful time with your Son, and tell him thank you from me.

Sorry for my abbreviated potty mouth, Pooh  :-[

As far as posting on FB. DB DID originally post on my status, but I deleted the posts because well, they made him look bad and I didn't feel it was anyone else's business.... Well, DB then posted it as his status. Nothing I can do about that one, but I did post to DH defense on that thread. I know the truth, they know the truth. They choose to spread their lies and that is their decision. Well, guess what, our TRUE mutual friends (I'm not counting SIL's friends, but MY friends from college/family/etc) also know the truth and think that they are very juvenile to be behaving this way. Sooooo, I think in the end, I actually win. No, I don't get to have a good relationship with my brother (which we never really had to begin with), but I also don't have to have all the stress that comes with dealing with them. Maybe someday it will be better, but I doubt it. What was that phrase? Oh well? lol Oh, well....

No worries, I was guilty of it too in the beginning.

It's hard to not want to defend yourself or the person you love.  I have to admit, if I saw something on FB about my DH, I would be posting too!  But then I would post that anyone that treated my DH badly, was no friend of mine, even if they were family. Then they would meet Officer Delete.

I think many times the problem arises when we want to stick around and see if they say anything else  ;D

QuoteSooooo, I think in the end, I actually win. No, I don't get to have a good relationship with my brother (which we never really had to begin with), but I also don't have to have all the stress that comes with dealing with them.

If this type of winning was your goal, then your DH got it for you.  I have this image of DH thinking "No sit down? No letter? Then by golly I'll just kick the bee's nest."  Here I was thinking a little time, space and relaxation could have gotten you the same thing, minus the rudeness and drama and bee stings.  Silly me.  ;D

I relate to your situation.  I'll check back now and again, in case later you develop other goals for your relationship with your DB, so I can offer more silly suggestions  ;)

Perhaps I'm just a bit of an over-eager "hall monitor"  in my new role as moderator (I have the sash and everything!) and maybe I'm reading your post with moderator-eyes, Sassy, but it borders on snarkiness to me. I agree with what you say, however. Please let me know if I'm off-base here.

We've all learned something from ADIL's situation, I think. Best wishes to all.

I think it was a little "snarky" no worries though lol

I honestly am soooo torn apart inside. I really do want a good relationship with my brother. I'm just trying to convince myslef that I don't so it won't hurt so much.  :'(

He at least has taken the post down off of FB. Maybe a little "poster's remorse"? Maybe, just maybe, they will come back around and it won't be ages until then?

But I don't think (even if we reach reconciliation) that they will ever be invited to our game nights. They made it very clear that they don't like our friends. So, why would I want them to come somewhere they aren't comfortable....

I just got off the phone with my mom. DB CALLED her this weekend, while she was away. Really? I was keeping her out of it (at least till she got home and read it all on FB).

I'm just soooooooooo sad. I cried all day yesterday. I really do love my brother. His wife, well, I guess I love her too. She a part of him. And i think that means something.  :-\

Anondil:
I bet he's just as sad as you are , given time you'll be friends again ....wanna bet ??

Quote from: lancaster lady on May 02, 2011, 10:09:10 AM
Anondil:
I bet he's just as sad as you are , given time you'll be friends again ....wanna bet ??

I soooooo desperately want to believe this, but I'm just not convinced. My brother has told me before that he doesn't want me in his life. Funny thing is SIL is the one who kept inviting me.

But I can always hope.  :)

Quote from: AnonymousDIL on May 02, 2011, 09:50:08 AM
I really do love my brother. His wife, well, I guess I love her too. She a part of him. And i think that means something.  :-\

Uh huh...& what was that phrase, "Oh well?"  : )  You didn't have me fooled.   My guess is that db called Mom cause he's at a loss as to how to fix it.  Guys find it more difficult to eat crow, you know?

Pen I suppose there was some snarkiness, but it was absolutely not directed at Anon.   I was trying to adopt the irreverant tone Anon was using to keep it light.   If snarkiness came through, it is because of the dark heaviness.  And it's not from DB and SIL's ridiculous facebook drama, which will pass.   I think Anon's DH did her a great disservice, and what I find most dark, is that it was on purpose.   DH disregarded Anon's input on her relationship with DB completely.  He went against Anon's explicitly stated wishes to give DB/SIL space and let it be. The guy went out of his way to blow her off, and intentionally manufacture an entirely avoidable mess for her.  It took more effort to do what he did, than to just respect her wishes.  I can't imagine DH reasonably expected any other outcome from his actions.  If someone else can, I would indeed be interested in reading about it.  This is indeed just my opinion. 

Since what I said has been misinterpreted as snarkiness towards Anon, and it indeed was not, I will be more direct about what I mean.  I was trying to soften the darkness with humor.  We had some prior joking about elbow room or breathing room being key.  This is a 7 page thread dedicated to how to best avoid a blowout with DB to preserve the relationship.   Sadly, when her DH's goal was to come along and kick the bees nest anyway, what Anon wants didn't matter.  I would think that DH knew her goal was to have a better relationship with DB, and would work with her towards that?  Was passing on a game night invite a hill to die on for Anon? Apparently and wisely not.  But now she's in a position where DH's goal overrode her own.    Now DH's goal of "blowup" and the silence and distance that follows is the one Anon is living with. 

If there is a temporary divide between Anon and her DH, it's certainly not because DB put one there. Not in this situation.  It's because DH put it there, when he chose to ignore what he knew his wife wanted, to put a divide between themselves and SIL/DB, at least this time. Trying to justify that DH was right to call SIL a "liar" because she didn't give a straight answer after DH pried with a question that was none of DH's business, and which he never should have been talking to her about to begin with, glosses over DH's betrayal and puts it back on SIL.   If SIL is fat, it's not conducive to good relationships to call her fat just because that's what she is.  Incidently, I think DH owes SIL an apology.  I do not think it is Anon's place at all to elicit one from him (or anyone).  If DH regrets what he said to SIL, and genuinely feels sorry about it, he should.  I don't think he feels either. 

If Anon doesn't want this betrayal, and DH-generated drama to happen again (with the positive assumption that she and DB will manage to speak civilliy again, and DB will eventually pass on an invitation again) Anon should absolutely hold her DH fully accountable for what he did to her, as his wife.   Because it is clear that for some reason, this is what her DH wants.  Until Anon gets to the bottom of why is DH undermining her goals with her family in favor of his own, there will be no progress.    

Now, I did not intend to talk about Anon in 3rd person, but I am addressing your question Pen from 1st person, and if there is a way to switch persons while explaining what I meant to you, I can't figure it out.  I do hope I have made clear that dear Anon was not the subject of any snarky tone.

Sassy, I understand.  :) I hold nothing against you at all. It is your way of pointing things out. I understand "snarky" lol It is actually the best way to get through to me lol...

Quote from: Sassy on May 02, 2011, 11:58:25 AM
I think Anon's DH did her a great disservice, and what I find most dark, is that it was on purpose.   DH disregarded Anon's input on her relationship with DB completely.  He went against Anon's explicitly stated wishes to give DB/SIL space and let it be. The guy went out of his way to blow her off, and intentionally manufacture an entirely avoidable mess for her.  It took more effort to do what he did, than to just respect her wishes.  I can't imagine DH reasonably expected any other outcome from his actions.  If someone else can, I would indeed be interested in reading about it.  This is indeed just my opinion.   

If DH regrets what he said to SIL, and genuinely feels sorry about it, he should.  I don't think he feels either. 

I agree, things did really blow up here. DH has genuinely applogized to me for it. I also understand completely why he did it. DH's history with DB/SIL has been riddled with them making false accusations against DH for, wait for it, LYING. I mean completely unfounded statements.

Example: My mom had recently taken a trip to the mountains and had stated how they almost hit a deer, and about the bears and other wild animals they saw on their trip. DH then told her that when he was driving through a mountainy town near here that he almost hit a bear when he came around a curve. (DH was not alone during this trip, but I was not with him). DB immediately accuses DH of being a liar because he thinks it is impossible for this event to have happened.

Soooooo, I know that DH's action (although well, Stupid! lol) came from the hurt that he has felt from DB/SIL. So, while it may be "impolite" to call someone out on a lie, DB/SIL made the first move on that one. And, well, I don't know if I think DH should apologize or not. I ceratinly wouldn't ask him to. I'm torn because I don't think he should have called her out on it, but part of me is glad that he did. No one has ever stood up to SIL. Soooo, I guess I feel it was time for it to happen, even if I don't like the outcome. DH probably handled it prettier than it would have been had I blown up at her.  :-\

ADIL, this sounds like what Scoop posted to you before.  Under-reacting for a long time and then a huge over-reaction.  I'd cut your DH some slack, yes he messed up but I can see where he is coming from. 

Sassy, (originally I called you Scoop, so sorry...Scoop, apologies to you too for the name mix up. One day on the job and I'm messing up already. Good grief!) thanks for clarifying. I certainly didn't want to do anything more than gently remind us all to watch it. I understand what you were doing, but we're all trying to abide by the new system. It'll take a little time for some of us mods to find our style.

ADIL, do you feel we've exhausted this topic?

Yeah... At least I know I am exhausted lol! Thanks, Ladies. I just gotta sit back and have patience.... Patience has never been my strong suit lol

Adil.... What your dh may have done did not turn out as well as you would have wished, but he did it for all the right reasons.  He knows that this hurts you, he knows that the lies are just compounding all the problems, and he came to your defense.. that no one here can fault him for, at the very least I won't.

I don't quite understand how it is that we have removed typing in caps from postings as others felt they were being 'yelled' at but now we are just hitting the bold command instead?  Sassy I understand that you are just trying to place some emphasis on your thoughts but I'm asking nicely that you reconsider this practice.  When I read quotes like this below

QuoteI think Anon's DH did her a great disservice, and what I find most dark, is that it was on purpose.

it reads the same to me as, "ANON'S DH DID HER A GREAT DISSERVICE..."  Maybe this is why some of your postings have been read as being more harsh then you possibly intended.

Anywho... Adil.. hang in there, you know how to reach me if you ever want to let it all out   ***'s included lol

Laura please feel free to remove all bolds.  I had used them in wordier blocks of text for ease of read, however I will not anymore.  The post that prompted inquiry was short, and didn't have any bolds.   Though, it did have italics, a smiley :D and a winky.  ;)  About which I am relieved Anon, the op whom I was addressing, understood.

Quote from: Laurie on May 02, 2011, 10:30:20 PM
Anywho... Adil.. hang in there, you know how to reach me if you ever want to let it all out   ***'s included lol

HaHa, Thanks, Laurie!

Quote from: Laurie on May 02, 2011, 10:30:20 PM
Adil.... What your dh may have done did not turn out as well as you would have wished, but he did it for all the right reasons.  He knows that this hurts you, he knows that the lies are just compounding all the problems, and he came to your defense.. that no one here can fault him for, at the very least I won't.

Yeah, I know, that's why I am torn. because, well, I am sooooo Proud that someone finally put her in her place. DB has now taken down the status. He was supposed to call my mom last night. I shot her a text asking how it went and if it sounded like they would be open for reconcliation, but he hadn't called yet.  :-\

I am truly hoping that this hasn't caused any issues in their marraige. My DB holds honesty (and apparently tattooes--said he would divorce SIL if she got one lol) above everything. He does not tolerate being lied to. Anywho, SIL stated in one of her ranting posts how I needed to "Check my Hubby's Phone so that I quote her correctly." I then posted that I had copied it directly FROM his phone. Sooooo, maybe Her Hubby decided to check hers and that's why he took all the posts down? I mean, C'mon! She was continuing to lie about it on FB. Soooo, maybe DB didn't call because he found out the precious wifey was lying? I kinda hope he found out, but I also don't want it to cause any problems for them. My brother doesn't really know how to forgive.  :-[

And SIL had a fit that I believed my hubby (and my own two eyes) over her because I've known her longer. What is That supposed to mean? He is my Husband! Then she threw a fit because I expect them to have "built-in" trust with DH. Um, NO. I Never said that. I said that I have a "built in" trust with DH because he is my Husband.

I really really hate the silent treatment. I hope I hear something soon. It just hurts me that DB would let his wife destroy his relationship with his family. I would never dream of doing that to DH's family.

Sooooo day two of the migraine continues.  :'(

Honestly ADIL, I see exactly why your DH finally said something.  Enough is enough, they are both on notice now that someone is paying attention.  It does seem like a lot of this is just impolite behavior that causes hurt feelings.  Maybe it wouldn't hurt to pick up an etiquette book?  Not that I'm saying you're a rude person but marriages in family change things, a lot of the etiquette books cover how to approach married couples, invites etc. 

I think it could help you out in determining when you're wrong vs when they are and cut some of it out.  Just a thought

Pam, is there any in particular you recommend? You right, we probably need one lol. We are all fairly "new" to the whole married thing. DB/SIL have been married 3 years and we've only been married 7 months. DB/MY approach has always been the "bite my tongue." DH's family is more "tell it like it is." I don't really know SIL's. She has never reacted like this, but I've never seen someone put her in her place because with DB and I there was no threat of that. SHE however DOES put people "in the place" (most times wrongly so).

Anyone know a good "How to Deal With Different Personalities" book? I am going to be doing a LOT of reading! LOL

Quote from: Sassy on May 03, 2011, 02:05:43 AM
Laura please feel free to remove all bolds.  I had used them in wordier blocks of text for ease of read, however I will not anymore.  The post that prompted inquiry was short, and didn't have any bolds.   Though, it did have italics, a smiley :D and a winky.  ;)  About which I am relieved Anon, the op whom I was addressing, understood.

Sassy, I have no capabilities of editing your postings in the grab bag lol... nor would I have.  We went through a rough patch of 'yelling'.  A smiley and a wink are great, always have been... well I did see one person turn even a smiley into a weapon, if you can believe that.

Just for the record, the advice you gave to Adil is good, I agree with most but there does come a point as Pam said when enough is simply enough.

Adil... it's a shame that we don't know where that point is or the consequences until the aftermath.  But... oh there is that dreaded word.. I do think I'd leave your Mom out of the equation, she needs to be on as neutral of a stance as possible.  If your brother calls her and she wants to share any information then let her approach you.  Keep in mind how betrayed you would feel if she turned to your db with information from a controversial conversation that you may have had with her.   

Quote from: Laurie on May 03, 2011, 07:06:05 AM
Keep in mind how betrayed you would feel if she turned to your db with information from a controversial conversation that you may have had with her.

I'm just looking for "tone" like was he really mad or did he sound a little sad? Just trying to figure out how long this cut-off will last, if it is only SIL or if it is him too.

If he sounds sad that he would be open to talking, then we will contact them to see if we can discuss things. I am hoping for the later, but I'm betting it is the former.  :-\

QuoteWhat your dh may have done did not turn out as well as you would have wished, but he did it for all the right reasons.  He knows that this hurts you, he knows that the lies are just compounding all the problems, and he came to your defense.. that no one here can fault him for, at the very least I won't. - Laurie

How I very much wish I could see the same!  I read the the opposite; that DH blew off her input to come to his own defense.

Quote I also understand completely why he did it. DH's history with DB/SIL has been riddled with them making false accusations against DH for, wait for it, LYING. I mean completely unfounded statements...
DB immediately accuses DH of being a liar because he thinks it is impossible for this event to have happened...
Soooooo, I know that DH's action (although well, Stupid! lol) came from the hurt that he has felt from DB/SIL. - AnonymousDIL

Which is, of course, his preogative.  But at what expense - not so much the DB/SIL fallout - as the broken spousal trust. 

QuoteDH (without my knowledge) sent them a text ....
He asked me if I wanted to still invite them after I read that they weren't going to her brother's and I explicitly stated NO. I don't know why he felt the need to invite them then  - Anonymous DIL

I understand why DH wanted to do it, enough is enough.   They've been well aware of that, though, and Anon has been discussing with DH the best ways for them both to work on it.  I don't understand why DH wanted to go behind her back as he did, and ignore her tender feelings about her family, for what is basically described as his own prideful game of gotcha.  He wasn't being impulsive, he talked about it with her first.  Anon is hurting for her relationship with DB, and my concern is if DH knows this hurts her as much as it does, why would he be so sneaky to sabotage her efforts, and their mutual efforts, for his own.  His apology is a start.   She forgave, but should not yet forget.  Trust has to be rebuilt.  For this matter at hand, they must be sure they can trust they are on the same page as a married couple, with similar goals for this DB/SIL relationship, before harmony with DB/SIL can begin.

And Laurie - I agree with you completely about stepping back from Mom and DB's relationship.  I think of triangular communication as the Bermuda Triangle!

Please excuse Sassy as she steps away from this thread, to avoid the risk of sounding like a broken record... Love to all!

Sassy,

Hmmmmm, you sound a lot like well, my brother. Why shouldn't I forgive, forget and move on? My husband isn't God. He is human, he makes mistakes. My brother plays that card on me all the time. The "you can't trust DH" card. Well, sorry, I DO trust him. I trust him more than anyone else on the planet. Does that mean he will never allow me to get hurt? No.

While, I would not have done what he did. I really am glad that he did it. I am through with DB/SIL's little "I am God" complex. And since they decided to air it online, at least a bunch of other people have seen it too.

That being said, I guess a "hot button" topic for me personally is when someone tries to paint my DH as some callous, self-serving person. He isn't. He is a wonderful man. I was sick all day yesterday and he took care of me. He is a wonderful husband, but yes, he makes mistakes. For me "I love you" means "I will always forgive you."

I think they should all accept her DH's reaction.  He is part of the family, just like SIL is.  They have to accept her, they have to accept him.  They now know he isn't going to put up with the nonsense.  Makes sense to me.

I do check with DH first about his family but he doesn't want me to.  He wants me to deal with them as I would any other.  And if that means defending him, I will do it.  I think ADIL's DH did the same.

Hello I came back because you asked me "Why shouldn't I forgive, forget and move on?"   Please re-read what I wrote.

QuoteHis apology is a start.   She forgave, but should not yet forget.  Trust has to be rebuilt.  For this matter at hand, they must be sure they can trust they are on the same page as a married couple, with similar goals for this DB/SIL relationship, before harmony with DB/SIL can begin. (italics added)

I am not your brother  :) (My DH is grateful for this, too).  FWIW, I agree you should have forgiven your husband his betrayal.  I believe his apology to you is sincere.  Forgetting is different.  For this matter at hand.  As in, next time you are with DB/SIL (say for example, Mother's Day) if your goal is to bring patience and understanding into the relationship with them, and DH says he wants the same thing, while his goal is instead to avenge past accusations, publicly expose SIL's flaws, or cure G-d complexes, without telling you what he's doing, it's something that would only benefit you to be aware of.    I don't think it would be unloving at all to "not forget," so you stay alert for the signs when he's not on the same page for this matter at hand.    FWIW (which I realize, is not much) I don't think your husband is a callous, self-serving person, but I did think, based on what I read (which by message board nature can only possibly be one small slice of a big picture) , that his actions toward you were. 

I suppose I see trust as a matter of degree, and circumstance.  I would not trust my DH around an unattended chocolate cake. For that matter, I would not trust myself.  I will say I trust my DH not to be unfaithful to me.  I honestly don't know if I could say the same if he embarked on a months long Business Trip with a gorgeous co-worker to tour the vineyards and funky poodle hotels of France.  I suppose some ladies would be able to say that.  So you know where I'm coming from.   I didn't say "you can't trust DH" as your brother has.  I do think trust in him, when it comes to how you and your DH-as-teammate will play out this matter at hand, should be approached with caution.   I love and can forgive people I don't trust (my MIL), as do you (DB).  Personally, I've never found it prudent to put trust in people in circumstances where they have said one thing and done another.  Not for punishment, not as some strict moral standard, not as grudge-bearing, but as natural consequence. Because I have found it to be true that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.  Time can allow that trust to be rebuilt.

Then again, if you are genuinely glad about what DH did, (which I was unclear about) then all of that doesn't matter, does it.  You both are on the same page after all.  You just didn't realize it at the time.  He was reading your unspoken wants.  Couples can do that. :-* That entire day of crying may only have been growing pains.  May the tears have watered a garden that will bloom even more gorgeously.  I wish only the best for you. 

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you when you said that I should not forget and trust has to be rebuilt as trust was never damaged for me. My brother has used this particular phrase in regards to DH frequently which is why I was so sensitive to it.

Psst! What's FWIW? That's a new one to me.

No apology necessary, none at all.  I actually think your reaction was totally appropriate.  I just didn't want you to misunderstand.  This isn't easy stuff.  Plus I am obviously missing pieces.     

FWIW = For What Its Worth.

FWIW, (lol) I thought hard on what Pam and Scoop said about underreacting and then overreacting.

It prompts a relevant question.  At the time DB accused DH of being a liar, did you or anyone in your family stand up for DH's defense at the time it happened?  Perhaps, "There's no reason to talk like that"? Or "That was not a very nice thing to say"?  Or "Please don't call my husband a liar"?

I guess to me, a total absence of any defense from his wife for him or his honor at that time, as a Husband and InLaw, would legitimately explain, or "justify" (for lack of a better word) DH's overrule. It is a valid explanation why he had to ignore his wife's input about how to handle her birth family of origin this go round. (Though I still wish he told you first!) 

SIL lying about her weekend plans doesn't sit right as any kind of "reason" to discard your wishes about how to handle them.  DB making comments in the past, doesn't make what DH did to you somehow okay, either.    But if DH feels those in DB's family of origin, including his devoted wife, are unable or unwilling to stand up for him as your Husband, to your family, that makes sense.  Not so much for quid pro quo, but if there was total inaction on the part of others, DH was free, perhaps even "required" if you will, to eventually take matters in his own hands.   (Now, if you did say something to your DB on behalf of DH's honor at the time, then for the record I'm back to thinking he was way out of line to cross you now. But I won't write about it anymore - "and this time when I say it I will mean it, Trust Me" ;) )

Lastly, can I say, I love how you stood up for DH to me!

DB never called DH a liar to DH. He said that to me, in an email (only parts of which were shared with DH because well, he went waaaaaaay too far). Claimed that ALL our friends think DH is a liar (which they don't). I took DB to the rails for that. DB couldn't understand how I could trust DH when he was a blatant compulsive liar (which he isn't). That's where the whole "built-in" trust thing came from. As in, I am married to him so I trust him 100%, 100% of the time. Well, somehow Me standing up for my Husband to my brother made me into some type of, well, I can't think of the word. But since then they have been well "extremely cranky" to us. DB/SIL feel that I should trust them more than DH because I've known them longer.

We aren't the only one's DB/SIL have been this way towards so I know it is them and not me.

So basically they are expecting you to act as a sister before being a wife.  And that's wrong.

We have the same issues with DHs siblings.  Rude behavior b/c they think they know him better and what he truly wants, dismissing me as a person and as a family member.  Dismissing our marriage as some kind of by-product and trying *anything* to get what they want out of him, which even includes lying about me to get the end product.

Basically, they refuse to behave in a manner consistent with societies view of marriage, as in marriage comes first.  Not siblings.

Your DB/SIL are behaving the same way towards your DH.  It doesn't matter that he doesn't know *all* of what they said, I'm sure he can feel it.  They disrespect him on a core level, that kind of stuff is hard to hide.  No wonder the guy had enough.

QuoteExample: My mom had recently taken a trip to the mountains and had stated how they almost hit a deer, and about the bears and other wild animals they saw on their trip. DH then told her that when he was driving through a mountainy town near here that he almost hit a bear when he came around a curve. (DH was not alone during this trip, but I was not with him). DB immediately accuses DH of being a liar because he thinks it is impossible for this event to have happened. - AnonymousDIL (Bolded only to indicate what I am referring to)

Okay..... if your DB went on this email campaign to you and your friends because of a mountain bear story.....er,  I also won't say just how big the last fish that got away was, either.  :o

Quote from: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 04:05:25 PM
So basically they are expecting you to act as a sister before being a wife.  And that's wrong.

We have the same issues with DHs siblings.  Rude behavior b/c they think they know him better and what he truly wants, dismissing me as a person and as a family member.  Dismissing our marriage as some kind of by-product and trying *anything* to get what they want out of him, which even includes lying about me to get the end product.

Basically, they refuse to behave in a manner consistent with societies view of marriage, as in marriage comes first.  Not siblings.

Your DB/SIL are behaving the same way towards your DH.  It doesn't matter that he doesn't know *all* of what they said, I'm sure he can feel it.  They disrespect him on a core level, that kind of stuff is hard to hide.  No wonder the guy had enough.

Pam, sometimes I think we are twins! That's exactly it. Although you would be in DH's position. I am so sick of DB and DH's sister trash talking DH to me.  >:(

At the risk of rushing to assumption based on a single antecdote (if I understood it correctly), I will come right out and ask:  Is it possible your DB could be plain... nuts? He and SIL in folie a deux ?

Because sadly I know a bit of how to deal with nuts and stay sane, and logic is no part of it.  It is mostly maintaining boundaries and curtailing all expectations. 

Soooo, I didn't know what folie a deux is so I looked it up. I am seriously laughing my butt off now.... I don't really know. Maybe they are nuts.

I think they are just rude lol.  And young.

Hey Adil, have you taken a Meyers Brigg personality test?  They have a lot of free ones online, they aren't always so accurate so you can look up the different descriptions.  But I think you're an intp or enfp.  lol, I don't know why I needed to tell you, but I think you're very similar to me, entp.  It's tough for women who get *N*P, it's like I feel an immediate bonding with them.

I'm curious to see what you get if you ever have the time.

Codependency and narcissismNarcissists, with their ability to "get others to buy into their vision and help them make it a reality," are natural magnets for the "'co-dependent' ... [with] the tendency to put others's need before their own".[8] Sam Vaknin considered that codependents, as "the Watsons of this world, 'provide the narcissist with an obsequious, unthreatening audience ... the perfect backdrop.'"[9] Among the reciprocally locking interactions of the pair, are the way "the narcissist has an overpowering need to feel important and special, and the co-dependent has a strong need to help others feel that way. ... The narcissist overdoes self-caring and demands it from others, while the co-dependent underdoes or may even do almost no self-caring."[10]

This was from wikipedia (not a good "source" I know lol) This sounds like my SIL/DB.... Interesting....

Quote from: pam1 on May 03, 2011, 05:08:14 PM
I think they are just rude lol.  And young.

Hey Adil, have you taken a Meyers Brigg personality test?  They have a lot of free ones online, they aren't always so accurate so you can look up the different descriptions.  But I think you're an intp or enfp.  lol, I don't know why I needed to tell you, but I think you're very similar to me, entp.  It's tough for women who get *N*P, it's like I feel an immediate bonding with them.

I'm curious to see what you get if you ever have the time.

ENFJ
slightly expressed extravert                               1

moderately expressed intuitive personality        25

moderately expressed feeling personality          38

very expressed judging personality                    100

That's what it says....  :-\

Hmmmm.....I think you're an NP still lol.  I know there are people who when they first take it automatically answer how they would like to be, instead of how they are.  It's not an absolute anyway, most of the time you have to get a professional to get accurate results.  A lot of people doing it on their own take several tests, multiple times and read the descriptions to get what they think they really are.  And even the time of day you take the test will reflect in your scores. 

I didn't get into it until the past year (I had work related tests before and just threw the scores aside) but it's helped me a lot in navigating my in law issues/different personalities etc.

Either way, ENFJ isn't bad lol.  None of the letters are bad.

I just know that you sound like a younger version of me.  Although I was a bit more of a knucklehead (ok, a lot more lol)

Fellow enfj here...no matter how I rig the test.

What is it with all these enfj's following me around?  Or am I an enfj chaser?  lol

I didn't like that it gave me 100 for "judgemental." I try so very hard to not be judgemental. Or is it because I over-analyze things to death lol

Apparently I am an "Idealist." I would classify myself more as a "Realist." I hope for the best prepare for the worst and what happens is usually somewhere in between.

lol, J isn't really judgemental.  It's more like you like to make decisions, orderly, everything has a home etc.  The flipside P is perceiving and they leave everything open-ended.  I am a huge P but I do make fast decisions when I think I need to, that's part of the NT. 

If you are a "j" I'd wager you balance your checkbook daily.  :)

And if you're a P you have an allowance debit card  8)

Quote from: Holly on May 04, 2011, 08:08:36 AM
If you are a "j" I'd wager you balance your checkbook daily.  :)

ROFL! Well, at least every other day. And I am one of those who write it out in the checkout line! lol

 ;D ;D ;D