http://InstantTeleseminar.com/?eventid=17184792
Josh Coleman gave me permission to post the replay of his webcast here.
Thanks so much!
Thanks Tara
I just listened to the program & would like so very much to use Dr. Coleman's advice... After years of heartache, walking on eggshells, holding my tongue, feeling depressed, crying & praying, I am simply at wits end. And this has actually been a good day. :) Dr. Coleman discussed how we shouldn't expect fairness, etc. When you feel as though you've been gutted time & again, there just doesn't seem to be much left to give. I'm simply exhausted. I don't know how anyone can live this way & still feel whole. I feel like humpty dumpty... Do any of you get really angry? Though this has been ongoing for 10+ years, just lately, I've felt angry. I've felt numb for so long, it actually feels kind of good, like it's a step up.
I appreciate the link, Tara. I'll work on Dr. Coleman's suggestions, if there's anything left in me that can absorb them...
Rose
Rose, I have always been a big believer that when a person is facing a loss, they must go through all the stages. People go through them sometimes in a different order, but usually you will hit on all of them. And people hit on each one differently. Where I may stay in the denial stage a long time, you may skip through it quickly and stay in the anger stage longer. And a loss is a loss. It could be a death, loss of a job, house foreclosure or loss of an important relationship.
The final goal is acceptance. The stages are: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance. So if you have moved on to anger, that is actually progress. I think the key is recognizing it for what it is, and finding a way to move through it quicker. And the only way I have been able to shorten those stages is by working on myself.
You can do this Rose!
And thanks Tara. Just finished it and I think he gave some very good advice and things to think about.
Thanks, Pooh. I've made some difficult concessions lately, and reached a milestone. Never in my wildest imagination would I have dreamed I'd have to make peace with the possibility of not seeing dd or gc again. It hasn't come to that, but I'm resentful for having been put in that position. It isn't only about them, it's also the dream I had for my family, and I've lost myself, as well. Looking over that list of stages, I apparently only have one left to go, that of acceptance. It shouldn't take too much longer, as I've also recently given up all wants, needs & expectations. Writing this helps me to see that I've been battling several fronts at one time. Geez, Luise, I have good reason to feel this rotten~! ???
I think that sometimes realizing that our feelings are appropriate, even well-earned, is healthy. I am alone, go to see Val in nursing every day and at times find that to be depressing. Why wouldn't it be? Do I need an anti-depressant? Probably not. I think feeling that way is pretty normal and needs to be felt and faced, not dulled and denied. We can't circumvent life. What we can do is learn to "accept what we cannot change." Simple but not easy.
Of course it's depressing at times for you Luise. That is perfectly normal and I think expected of anyone. I would be concerned about you if you didn't get that way at times.
I think the five stages are normal, and you just have to remember that once you go through one and move on, you may go back and to one you have already been through. Everyone reacts differently and why wouldn't we? We are all different personalities. I do think once you have hit acceptance, you still go back and visit the others some, but you visit them as a guest this time and don't move in. That's human nature.
And Rose, I think that is the hardest thing we deal with. Trying to let go of what we thought we would have. I know it was for me.
I'm so sorry, Luise. Please know that we're here for you. Anytime you feel like talking, we're ready to listen...
Sending love & sunshine your way,
Rose
Thanks for helping to prop me up today... :) :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI-SqugOBfw
Thank you Tara, for posting the link. It clarified so much of what was written in his book. Rose, I know how you feel, I have been going through the same but not for so long. I actually thought I had a fairly good relationship with my odd, until a year or two ago. I had thought that when we saw each other or spoke to each other it was because she wanted to, but no, it was because she felt she had to. So now she never calls and I rarely see her. I will be seeing her and my gd tomorrow, (first time since Christmas), and while I am looking forward to it, I am also nervous, because I don't know how she will act towards me. What an awful situation, to be afraid of seeing your own child. But at least I will see my precious gd.
As Dr. Coleman said, there does not seem to be any kind of family responsibility today, we all know we would not have treated our parents this way. But today, if you say something your child does not like, they will cut you out of their life. Joining WWU have certainly helped me deal with this. I don't know what the future holds for me and my ODD, but I don't feel I could ever trust her again, and that in a way is acceptance.
Rose, that's what I look like trying to walk in heels! ;D
Jill,
Good luck tomorrow!
Thank you, holliberri.
Sending love, Jill!
Pooh,
I have often thought that the stages of grief you describe can be traversed in so many ways. Some times all in a day, repeatedly or occassionally, sometimes as you say one at a time. Just thought of this: I can't remember when I gained true acceptance of my first husbands death. I was divorcing him, but he was my high school sweet heart and I was 22 at the time and the grief was profound, but there were no grief counselors or groups in those days
I like the word experiences in place of stages, so we don't count on chronology or even consistency.
When I lost my first husband we had been divorced for over 25 years and it felt huge. We never saw each other or communicated...but we had four sons together and had know each other since we were three.
I hear you Tara. I think many times when we grieve over the loss, we are actually grieving for the person they used to be, or how we perceived they used to be. After I got over the initial anger stage with my Ex, and didn't think about running over him over in my car every day, I realized that I was also angry over the loss of the person I loved 20 years prior. But then I was angry with myself, because in reality, he was still the person from 20 years prior, I had just perceived him differently then.
I can't tell you when I accepted my divorce. It just finally happened at some point. I think we are lucky now to have people that understand that divorce, or just the loss of an important relationship is similiar to grieving over a death. And I don't remember having grief counseling available back when I was 22 either, so that had to be very hard on you.
I also just listened to the webcast, but maybe it was not a good day for me to do that! A part of me does understand what Mr. Coleman is saying, but then another part of me is saying...Hey wait a minute here, what it sounds like he is suggesting is kissing my little brats backside! I personally have been given no excuse as to why the estrangement, I read about it on Facebook, and I am frankly angry about that. His "reason" is because I don't DO ENOUGH FOR HIM AND DIL. HER FOO is ALWAYS giving them cars, or money, or buying them stuff, so I am expected to do the same, and they are angry that I don't??? If that is the excuse for estrangement, then to be honest I am still going from sad, to hurt, and today I am just plain ticked off. I guess I did not want to hear that I should not expect DS to have empathy or I should not expect fairness blah, blah! I feel like saying to heck with this, you and your wife are a couple of spoiled rotten brats, and if the only way to have a relationship with you is to give, or buy you what ever you want, I am better off WITHOUT a relationship with you. Now quite possibly I'll get over some of this anger tomorrow and will reconsider my thoughts, but for today NO. It is hard for me to understand how a person can group a bunch of folks into one category. I mean there are always variances in each family dynamic right? For instance if there is mental illness involved, or abuses, or drug or alcohol issues, I wonder if his advice would still be the same? Just a thought. Sometimes saying nothing negative at all, or just backing up and giving them space, or not responding in anger (or in any way actually) to terrible things they say or do makes no difference anyway. I have not said a peep since summer, have not called them, only have sent a text at Christmas ( a simple Merry Christmas), a simple Happy Birthday message to older GD...period. I refuse to fight and argue, which is what I think they wanted (thus the reason for putting it on my Facebook wall). But I also refuse to take any "guff" to be "honored" by a few visits a year so they can come get "expected gifts" from us! Okay, I need to count to 10, breathe, take a nice tub soak, and have some ME time. Thanks for allowing me to vent again. I will adjust my attitude now, and enjoy the rest of the day...the sun is shining, and I have a lot to be thankful for.
I'm really sorry you're enduring this, too, Jill. Like you, I get nervous about upcoming visits. I know it's really hard, but try to just be yourself & go with the intention of having a good time. When dd sees that you are relaxed, she may be more apt to let her guard down, as well. We are allowed so few visits, make the most of it, & enjoy your little gd to the fullest. We're afraid our dc won't love us for who we are, but if we're always walking on eggshells around them, how will they know who we truly are? Go & have fun, if dd's not happy about that, so what? I'll be thinking about you...
Jane,
I think if you hadn't done that, your attitude wouldn't be able to adjust. :)
Quote from: JaneF on February 18, 2011, 12:48:47 PM
If the only way to have a relationship with you is to give, or buy you what ever you want, I am better off WITHOUT a relationship with you.
Not to egg you on, but sometimes, I think that what you said right here, can be considered a form of acceptance. I know it doesn't help, but I don't necessarily see a lot of anger in that statement. I see self-protection.
Quote from: JaneF on February 18, 2011, 12:48:47 PM
I also just listened to the webcast, but maybe it was not a good day for me to do that! A part of me does understand what Mr. Coleman is saying, but then another part of me is saying...Hey wait a minute here, what it sounds like he is suggesting is kissing my little brats backside!
Now quite possibly I'll get over some of this anger tomorrow and will reconsider my thoughts, but for today NO.
I need to count to 10, breathe, take a nice tub soak, and have some ME time.
I needed to be talked down after listening to it last night also, Jane. :) Dd hasn't said what I've done wrong either. I think the pendulum has swung too far. She would never have survived my parents. They would have given her something to cry about. Cheer up, tomorrow is a new day. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Rose799 on February 18, 2011, 01:18:24 PM
Quote from: JaneF on February 18, 2011, 12:48:47 PM
Cheer up, tomorrow is a new day. ;D ;D ;D
Sorry, I don't know why I wrote that. There doesn't seem to be much to cheer about some days. This has been one of them. I do hope tomorrow is better for you though, Jane~
Well, it probably worked for someone. It sounded good to me, actually. Sending love...
Quote from: luise.volta on February 18, 2011, 01:45:04 PM
Well, it probably worked for someone. It sounded good to me, actually. Sending love...
Maybe this will help to brighten someone's day...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVGzwj1A4QI&feature=rec-LGOUT-real_rev-rn-1r-29-HM
I guess I had a different take on that part, although when he first said it, I had to go back and listen again. I don't necessarily think he was saying cater to them by giving them every little thing in the world. I think he meant more like we have to give in sometimes and not expect anything in return.
I took it as him saying for example (if they lived far away), that we might think it was fair for us to fly out to them half the time and then them fly in to us the other half. We find that fair, reasonable and sensible. I think he was saying that we might have to resolve ourselves to it being us that flies out all the time to see them, if their take is it is easier for us to come to them because of kids, work, blah blah blah. And that even though we may not agree with that or find it compromising, that we might just have to conceed to have the relationship. Just my thoughts on it.
I understand where you are at Jane... I also listened to it last night.. dozed off at the end so I'll have to do a repeat.. but what I heard was yes, if you want a relationship, after a cut off then you will need to bow down and take the brunt of their anger. I heard that there is no place for "me" in any conversations, not sure if he was implying that this will be a life long approach. I could be wrong but I thought I heard him say basically that we created this mess, and now we have to play the game. Other words, we were the ones to teach our children entitlement so why should they think any differently now. On that I'd have to agree, I think kids are being taught that, and "that" was taught 20+ years ago.
I don't think I can subscribe to that philosophy of accepting a defeatist role because I do not feel that I personally raised my kids this way. Since society, peers and everything else combined had equal if not a greater impression on my kids, it's hard to say that my own children were not of the same mind set. But then again I'm not having a real issue of being cut off at this point either.
The audio seminar did provide great insight on how the entitled young adults view life in general. Hopefully some situations can be avoided with this basic knowledge. But there did seem to be a very fine line in what he was suggesting you do and allowing yourself to be abused.
Hi Laurie,
I agree, if you want to have contact with your child, you must "do it their way". My odd told me that if I did everything the way she wanted, maybe we could at some point be friends. I doubt that we can because I do not have to watch everything I say or "knuckle under" to my friends. They accept me as I am, and I accept them, if they did not, we would not be friends. But with our children. everything has to be the way they want it. It is like everyone is on the same level, just because you gave birth to some one, does not make you any more important in their eyes.
Thanks girls for all the honest replies. I guess I was just thinking that for the past dozen years I HAVE been doing exactly what Mr. Coleman suggested, just to keep some relationship with DS and DIL and Gd's, and all I got for my efforts was barely a crumb. And that is probably more than I got to be honest. Sorry for my attitude today, I am rarely such a grump. I did see good points in the webcast, and if those suggestions work for some I'm all for it, it just does not work in my case at this point. I really agree with the post that said it was like "self protection" on my part, you hit the nail on the head! I also agreed with the post about not raising my kids to be "entitled", but dear old ex did just the opposite, in my opinion of course. I forgave all that past baggage with ex (severe physical and emotional abuse to me and ODS), and many years after divorce I attended "group support" meetings for him when he ended up a drug addict and then in rehab. Not only did I do that for him, I wrote off over $20,000 in child support he owed. So I am sincere when I say I forgave past events. However, after his recovery (and I am glad of that), he met a gal and got married and decided he wanted nothing more to do with his kids or grandkids because "he has a new life now", and the new wife is a lot like my DIL and wanted his family out of his life. And I refer to his kids when I say family, not me. We were very civil, and I took care of his mother 2 years ago while she was dying of lung cancer. His sister needed all the help she could get, and ex MIL was one of my best friends so I felt honored to do that for her. I miss her terribly. Accept my apology for the grouch I am today, been a hard month. Grandfather passed away, father actively dying now, and mother recently had heart attack and has other health issues. Not an excuse, just overwhelmed. Raising a grandchild keeps me busy, but we love her dearly, I have the best husband in the world, and I am healthy...I will try to be back to my usual self now and move on. Thanks for the ears today, blessings to you all, and thanks.
Quote from: jill on February 18, 2011, 02:25:02 PM
But with our children. everything has to be the way they want it. It is like everyone is on the same level, just because you gave birth to some one, does not make you any more important in their eyes.
With the adult child who really does feel a sense of entitlement, I think the parent is view as being below them.. not on the same level in any manner. Matter of fact, that true sense of entitlement would place you above most people. I'm sure their friends are as disposable as family.
Jane,
Don't worry about being a 'grump' I have always appreciated your posts and views on things. I'm sorry
for your losses, its alot to deal with.
Love and Blessings,
Tara
Hello Women,
Luise mentioned that I might post some of my notes from the Josh Coleman Seminar's. Last night was the second one. Would people want me to do this? I found it very interesting, but not sure that others would. If so, I could double check with Dr. Coleman, but I think it wouldn't be an issue.
Also, This is my take on his thinking: He seems to have a clear understanding of the mistreatment that parents are
experiencing by their kids, and also seems to have a deep compassion. I get that feeling by his languaging of the issues. Also, I think he feels that we can be "strategic" to try to resolve the problems or we can focus on 'fair' which is a choice too. I think that he gets its not right at all! Last night he talked about the different kinds of reasons that parents and kids have estrangement.
Let me know.
Blessings, Tara
I would appreciate your notes, Tara. Though Mr. Coleman said some things that weren't always easy to swallow, I am open minded enough to take his suggestions in to consideration. It would just be kind of nice if we could lock our dc in a room & "tutor" them, as well. ;)
Thanks Tara
Always interested in a different view.. really I'd rather you just take him your laptop and we can have a direct q&e right here
Yes! wouldn't that be nice.
He asked me to send him my notes before I put them WWU as he is planning to write some more and
he would like to look at them. No problem. Just have to tidy them up a bit.
Would someone mind listing the 5 Most Common Mistakes?
I can't listen to this at work and I think DH will think it's strange if I listen. I was estranged from my parents (Dad: 1 and 1/2 years at one point; Mom: max: 3 months, but several times over a few years). I feel confident I'm past that, but I just don't feel that my parents made any mistakes. My estrangement of them was quite silly; it was only my own acceptance that resolved it.
Holliberry,
I'm getting to go out, but if someone doesn't before tommorrow I will
I'd have to strain my brain to remember all five.. so I'll let Tara do it tomorrow.. so not into brain straining tonight
Here you go Holliberry:
mistake #1: eBlieving that a reconciliation with your child should be based on principles of fairness rather than strategy.
Mistake #2: Trying to motivate your adult child through guilt
Mistake #3: QUALIFYING YOUR AMENDS THROUGH EXPLANATION, PERSUASION, OR DEFENSIVENESS
Mistake # 4: RETURNING FIRE WITH FIRE
Mistake # 5: FAILING TO SEE HOW LONG RECONCILIATION TAKES AND NOT RECOGNIZING PROGRESS WHEN IT OCCURS
Quote from: Tara on February 18, 2011, 10:24:10 PM
Here you go Holliberry:
mistake #1: eBlieving that a reconciliation with your child should be based on principles of fairness rather than strategy.
Mistake #2: Trying to motivate your adult child through guilt
Mistake #3: QUALIFYING YOUR AMENDS THROUGH EXPLANATION, PERSUASION, OR DEFENSIVENESS
Mistake # 4: RETURNING FIRE WITH FIRE
Mistake # 5: FAILING TO SEE HOW LONG RECONCILIATION TAKES AND NOT RECOGNIZING PROGRESS WHEN IT OCCURS
Hi Tara,
Can you explain mistake 1 please. I have a handle on the others but don't understand that 1st one.
thanks
Julia, in my opinion that #1 mistake says we should not expect any "fairness" when trying for a reconcilliation, because it WILL NOT involve fairness. There will be no compromise on the part of our adult child, we will have to do all "giving in". The adult child may not feel any empathy or guilt what so ever. Basically it will all have to be their way or the highway. I am not suggesting Mr. Coleman thinks it is right, but he did say that was how it was. (and he said it was the case with his situation with his daughter, for YEARS). We have to tip toe around in order to get a reconcilliation that could take a very, very long time. I had a hard time with this first rule yesterday! lol I hope I stated this correctly, but as I said this is how I understood it, so it's my opinion. I am sure some others will add their take on it too. Hope I explained it okay.
Heres my notes on #1
1. If It would be fair it would be like a friend, each talk about being misunderstood. That is not in place when estrangement has taken place. It's a different kind of experience. If it was fair you could have rules, you could demand more commitment. if it would be fair, you could say you did the best you could and it would be understand. If it was fair you could address how kid married someone difficult.
Whats required is to still be a parent. but not in the wayyou might think . Not a model where you talk amongs equals. you don't get to say how rejected, etc.you feel. that drives the child away. You have to give w/o expecting much in return. it's a one way street.
It requires patience, nothing is more humiliating, devastating. It will take time. you may have been dealing with this for
year. You have to see this as a marathon and have patience. you have to have a vision of unconditional love when you
feel so devalued, maligned. Unconditional love for oneself. This is the trickiest part for estranged parents. Suicidality issues arise, heartbroken, nothing makes parents feel so unlovable as when a child rejects us, makes us feel like terrible people. its hard to contain and compartmentalize. You must work and preserve unconditional self love and self acceptance.
Do: Write out how you were a good parent in the
. carry it around with you on a 3x 5 card and read it 2x a day.
Have an ongoing dialogue (with self) with how you were and are a good person
because estranged parents feel depressed, don't do things good for
themselves, Do good things!
Work on ability to try and compartmentalize so it doesn't affect your
own life. I'll think about it 5 minutes and then put it away.
that's not only good for them and good for you.
gender issues:
Men get mad, better at compartmentalizing, and tend to stop reaching out.
Women get sad
- All estranged parents feel shame.
- This is an epidemic and happens to good people
-
Quote from: Tara on February 19, 2011, 07:53:27 AM
Heres my notes on #1
1. If It would be fair it would be like a friend, each talk about being misunderstood. That is not in place when estrangement has taken place. It's a different kind of experience. If it was fair you could have rules, you could demand more commitment. if it would be fair, you could say you did the best you could and it would be understand. If it was fair you could address how kid married someone difficult.
I want to be clear that I am not speaking to any person on this board or to any situation on this board. Again...I am not talking about anyone on this board. I want that to be clear.
I guess what I would like to see recognized is that sometimes the best you could can be understood, but it can't be forgiven. And sometimes it just can't be accepted that the best you did was the best you could do.
When I say that I'm talking about parents who were drunks, physically abusive, shoved their children aside for other marriages, allowed partners to molest children, etc. The big stuff. Sometimes people can't forgive or move past that stuff, and adult children DO have the right to their feelings, too. It isn't always about the poor innocent parent being abused by an adult child. Sometimes as parents we screw up and those screw ups are not going to be forgiven. That's just the way it is. If you try to force forgiveness or demand that the other person get over it because of how it affects you (general sense you), then you're in for a world of hurt and disappointment. (and, yes...I realize that runs both ways. Kids can't demand that of parents, either and expect it to just happen.) And...for some mistakes made while parenting...the hurt and disappointment on the part of the child toward the parent is deserved.
Not everything can or should be fixed. Sometimes we just have to deal with the punishment of the things we did wrong.
And also with being punished for things we didn't do wrong. Sending love...
Quote from: luise.volta on February 19, 2011, 09:59:22 AM
And also with being punished for things we didn't do wrong. Sending love...
Yes, absolutely. I do see that such things do happen to people. I DO see that. And, I do not condone it.
You are correct Glitter, there are some things that parents have done or situations where they did not protect their child that for some will remain forever unforgivable. Those in that family scenario have probably lost the right to ever use the word 'fair' when relating to how their adult child views their relationship.
I could be wrong and I hope Tara will correct me if I am, but I felt the audio discussion was aimed more towards families where the adult children had not suffered any atrocities. Families that had become estranged by choice and possibly by only the reasonings of the adult children.
Josh Coleman did talk about the different causes for estrangement this week.
One of the causes is due to mistakes parents make. He also did say: here are my notes imperfectly typed.
4. Mistakes to due parents mistakes or mismatches due to personalities
For some percent of the children that is the reality. what is tricky is having compassion for self, (he is giving example: I do have regrets, work amends. I also did the best I could given the resources I had and what I knew at the time. often its not till down the line when we say I wish I wouldn't have done that. Its vip to be compassionate and forgiving, if they (AC) directly complaining. you will have your life and a more peaceful life the more you can forgive yourself. Its doubly painful for parents who have made big mistakes as they have their own regret and its hard to hear the childs complaints. Its important to try not to feel defensive. If there is any chance of reconcilation its through that door. parents who have made mistakes have had their own (history of) trauma. trauma begets trauma. where there is someone who is a 'bad parent' something bad has almost always happened to them. A. childs rejection can trigger unbearable feelings
Quote from: Laurie on February 19, 2011, 10:22:15 AM
I could be wrong and I hope Tara will correct me if I am, but I felt the audio discussion was aimed more towards families where the adult children had not suffered any atrocities. Families that had become estranged by choice and possibly by only the reasonings of the adult children.
Laurie, I agree, he is referring to families who always thought they were normal, and suddenly discover they actually belong to a dysfunctional family.
Tara, thanks so much for posting all your notes. They are really helpful.
Rose, thank you for your post. Things went fairly well today, I kept telling myself "enjoy your gd". I actually felt fairly relaxed, I think not seeing them for a while helped, my odd and I spoke cordially, not getting into anything that had caused our rift, and if possible, I would prefer never to mention it again, and leave everything in the past, however, it all depends on her moods. I thought my gd was a little more distant, maybe because she has not seen me for a while, or maybe just because she is getting older and more into her friends and activities.
So, I am feeling a little better, thanks to all the support here on WWU, and gaining confidence on how to deal with the situation.
Quote from: jill on February 19, 2011, 05:19:52 PM
Things went fairly well today, I kept telling myself "enjoy your gd". I actually felt fairly relaxed, I think not seeing them for a while helped, my odd and I spoke cordially, not getting into anything that had caused our rift, and if possible, I would prefer never to mention it again, and leave everything in the past, however, it all depends on her moods. I thought my gd was a little more distant, maybe because she has not seen me for a while, or maybe just because she is getting older and more into her friends and activities.
So, I am feeling a little better, thanks to all the support here on WWU, and gaining confidence on how to deal with the situation.
I'm glad things went well today, Jill. Lately, I've been reading about passive-aggressive personality disorder. Does any of this sound familiar to you? I previously added another link under "Internet." Looking back, this seems like a credible explanation in my situation. Dd was an angel until the typical teen years. But she was also a perfectionist & it was difficult for her to express her frustrations. I thought it was low self esteem, so I tried to boost her up. During the teen years, I thought it was typical rebellion that she would outgrow. I wonder now if it was passive resistance?
http://www.empoweringparents.com/Passive-Aggressive-Child-Behavior-Hidden-Anger-in-Kids.php
I think there are many people who use or have learned passive-aggressive tactics, but don't have the full blown disorder. Passive-aggression has become acceptable in our culture because it doesn't involve yelling or hitting so on the surface it doesn't appear to be aggressive at all. Worse, when people are faced with passive-aggression, they often respond in the same way. It silently keeps the problem growing.
I know that doesn't really help, but I don't see passive-aggression going away until society decides it is unacceptable. It is so difficult to confront, and so many put people have been doing it for so long that I am not sure they even realize it is wrong. My therapist told me that when someone is behaving like that, I need to confront them and tell them I took offense every time they do something like that. She said it requires a ton of patience and it is only worth doing if you care about the person enough that you want a healthy relationship with them. Otherwise, I was supposed to avoid them altogether to maintain a healthy relationship with myself.
I am so sorry, rose.
Thanks Holliberri,
Dd was fragile at a young age & had trouble processing hurts & failures. We were more lenient for that reason. I wouldn't say she was spoiled. Neither was she an only child. If only I knew then what I know now... It's so easy to make mistakes, but just as we cannot accept full credit for dc's successes, neither should we accept full blame for their failures. I just wish things were different.
Rose,
I hope you didn't think I thought she was spoiled. I'm not sure that is what is going on among some parents and their children is a result of being spoiled, or too loved, or given too much, and I think it has nothing to do with being an only child.
You absolutely can't accept full credit for her shortcomings. We all have some shortcomings after all; generally we don't blame our parents for that.
I don't think this type of behavior is a result of what you did as a parent, and even if you wanted to help her fix it (because that's all you can really do; it's her problem, not yours), it's a long hard struggle for you.
I know what you mean about wishing things were different!
Quote from: holliberri on February 20, 2011, 10:46:46 AM
I hope you didn't think I thought she was spoiled. I'm not sure that is what is going on among some parents and their children is a result of being spoiled, or too loved, or given too much, and I think it has nothing to do with being an only child.
No, I didn't think that's what you meant Holli. I don't know that being an only child is the issue. What I have noticed a tendency of though, is over-compensation, just as I did with dd, because she appeared fragile at a young age, & because I had a chronic illness. Though I know I was a good mother, I wasn't able to do all the things I wanted to. Guilt plays a big role. Mothers wear it so well; young mothers, working mothers, single mothers... Maybe that's why df's get off so easy; they don't feel guilt in the same way?
Quote from: Rose799 on February 20, 2011, 11:20:03 AM
No, I didn't think that's what you meant Holli. I don't know that being an only child is the issue. What I have noticed a tendency of though, is over-compensation, just as I did with dd, because she appeared fragile at a young age, & because I had a chronic illness. Though I know I was a good mother, I wasn't able to do all the things I wanted to. Guilt plays a big role. Mothers wear it so well; young mothers, working mothers, single mothers... Maybe that's why df's get off so easy; they don't feel guilt in the same way?
Guilt definitely does; I work full time and I'm in school two nights a week. Guilt is the reason I let DD stay up late with me, the reason I use my leave to take off for every pancake breakfast (monthly) at daycare--she's only 8 months...she has no idea whether I'm there or not!). It's the reason I don't eat dinner at all when DH isn't around at night.
I can't say whether or not DFs feel the same way; but I do feel they're not held to the same standard as moms are. Daycare thinks its adorable if he forgets socks for DD. His mom thinks its "just being a guy" if she has a leaky diaper when he watches her. If DH forgets the socks, daycare calls me to leave work to get them for her; if her diaper leaked on me, it's because I don't change her often enough. All of that definitely adds up to guilt.
Regardless, no matter what you did, some personality traits are just there. I have no idea where my brother gets his wicked humor from, and I don't know how the Type A in me grew to be. If my brother worries, he gets active, if I worry, I get sullen. I don't think all personality traits are a result of how we were raised, especially not passive-aggressive behavior.
That's an excellent point...we're a combination. Parents may experience more pride or failure than they are responsible for. We need to remember that. Those of us who have experienced being held in high esteem by one adult child and in utter contempt by another...are forced to learn that. Sending love...
Yes good points about being viewed differently by each child or other relative. I think a lot of us here have experienced one child thinking we were good parents and another that thinks the opposite. I have had one ds say years ago that i was awful parent, now that he is in 30's he tells me he differently, and he now understands things he didn't back then. I think we go through "changes" and our views may change, I know mine have as I have aged (I prefer matured!). Most of us probably have a thing or two they wish they had done differently, but we can't dwell on should have, could have. Doesn't resolve a thing. I do appreciate being able to come here and talk about our issues and see other perspectives on things. It's a great learning tool for me. Thank you all for all the input here, I look forward to reading your posts.
I think the one good thing about maturing into a new perspective is that it can be liberating. I also think it means that there's hope for us all that are currently having problems in the family. Not only might we genuinely feel differently one day, but so might the other party.
I think I have a tendency to overpersonalize sometimes.
When I see a post that talks about how someone drank while raising their children or raised their child in an abusive household (whether it was them or their spouse) and now doesn't understand why the child is bitter or distant or full of contempt I automatically empathize with the adult child and don't understand why the adult child is just expected to get past it or over it or just move on or forgive.
I know that's not what this post started out as...and maybe I look too far into his work and see something that isn't there...but I'm not a fan of Coleman's work. I've read some of his articles and some of his suggestions flat out seem intrusive at best and stalkerish at worst to me.
I think I need to just sit down and examine why this whole thread bothers me so much. Why I feel that it is so blameful towards adult children.
Quote from: holliberri on February 20, 2011, 11:28:39 AM
I use my leave to take off for every pancake breakfast (monthly) at daycare--she's only 8 months...she has no idea whether I'm there or not!).
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
What a lucky little girl your dd is!!
You're not alone in your thoughts about his work, 1Glitterati.
Quote from: 1Glitterati on February 20, 2011, 01:36:37 PM
When I see a post that talks about how someone drank while raising their children or raised their child in an abusive household (whether it was them or their spouse) and now doesn't understand why the child is bitter or distant or full of contempt I automatically empathize with the adult child and don't understand why the adult child is just expected to get past it or over it or just move on or forgive.
I agree, Glitterati. The scars are sometimes too deep to bring healing, let alone forgiveness. Forgiveness itself doesn't wipe the slate clean. To me, it's a gift we give ourselves so as to get that monkey off our back, allowing us to move forward.
I think self-help, counselors, religous works, philosophy, poetry, etc. is all open to personal interpretation. I have watched movies that won awards and thought they were stupid, I have read books that everyone raved about and thought they were mediocre, and I have read poetry where I got one meaning from it and someone else got a diferent meaning.
I think anything you read or hear, can be interpreted in many different ways by different individuals. Some things will meet your needs, and some will not. Some things will fit your situation, and some will not. I never thought Mr. Coleman was talking about physically or truly mentally abusive situations, just normal parent mistakes that we all make. But someone else hearing it or reading it, may get a different view. That's Ok. We are all different and it is no different than the advice or stories on this forum. Many of the situations do not apply to me, many do. I have read some articles or books that have been posted, and didn't like them. I have read several that helped me. I think when people gain critisizm, is when they state their opinion as fact and present it in a way that says, "I am right and you are wrong." I don't think anyone is right or wrong, just things are not right for me, or totally wrong for me. But they might be totally right for the next person. If we all liked strawberry ice cream, there would be no need for 51 flavors at Baskin Robbin.
Glitter...
I have compassion for your thoughts and feelings. I grew up in a troubled family and was abused emotionally in many ways. Its taken most of my life to mature and become the person I am meant to be and I am 66. Much therapy and much spiritual practice and finally I feel pretty good about the person I am.
But I have a different view about Coleman than you. I don't think at all he is saying that adult kids should just 'get
over it or must forgive. He is addressing a need that is out there due to the changes in society and family structure as well as
parents who have made mistakes. I won't try to lay that out here but its available to review if you were interested. It seems that many good parents who haven't made major mistakes are experiencing estrangement too (there were 350 people on his free into tele seminar ) I'm a parent who made a mistake out of lack of wisdom and ignorance and am paying the very painful consequences. have been for 33 years, and there is no real way to resolve it. You and I have talked about this in WWU in the past.But Glitter, I need someone in my corner. I need someone to advise me who has alot of experience in dealing with these issues. There are parents who feel like dying because of estrangement and I have been one of those parents. So I think its appropriate that there be some help.
As for alcoholics, I totally understand that for some adult children of alcoholics forgiving their parent is out of the question, but I have worked as a therapist with alcoholics and addicts and they are as diverse as the human race. I've seen so many diverse kinds of people suffering from the disease of alcoholism who work hard to get sober and work the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and totally change their lives. I became a specialist in working with doctors, dentists and nurses who are alcoholics and did that for some years. Many of them came from families of alcoholics as it is a genetic disease. I used to be a family therapist also in alcohol treatment programs and I go to alanon (families of alcoholics 12 step programs ) here in my town, so I know the stories very very well. One thing I know for sure is that one can't say 'alcoholic' and have that be an adequate description of a person, IMHO
Also, I want to share my own experience about forgiviness. I have had to work most of my adult life on forgivness. It is a practice I learned in the 80's and am still practicing off and on. I've worked at it for my own inner peace not the other person. My spiritual teacher taught me to start slow and "pick up the 5 lb weight" ie the not so important things and start there , and of course not force self to forgive things that I couldn't at the time. He said that holding onto anger continuously is like 'picking up a hot coal to throw at someone", it burns oneself. . I was taught not to forget but to work towards forgiveness, .I haven't forgotten. The forgivness practice has made a difference in my life and my inner peace.
I do know what it feels like to feel uncomfortable about things that get posted here when DIL's on wwu tell one another about a 'good book' called "toxic in laws". Its a bit uncomfortable, but I just let it be.
I hope that you will hear this in the spirit it is meant - from the heart.
Warm Regards,
Tara
Quote from: Tara on February 21, 2011, 09:06:57 AM
As for alcoholics, I totally understand that for some adult children of alcoholics forgiving their parent is out of the question, but I have worked as a therapist with alcoholics and addicts and they are as diverse as the human race. I've seen so many diverse kinds of people suffering from the disease of alcoholism who work hard to get sober and work the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and totally change their lives. I became a specialist in working with doctors, dentists and nurses who are alcoholics and did that for some years. Many of them came from families of alcoholics as it is a genetic disease. I used to be a family therapist also in alcohol treatment programs and I go to alanon (families of alcoholics 12 step programs ) here in my town, so I know the stories very very well. One thing I know for sure is that one can't say 'alcoholic' and have that be an adequate description of a person, IMHO
Tara,
My dad began drinking every night (at a bar) when my mom finally served him with divorce papers. He never drank before then, so in my 17 year old brain, he became an instant alcoholic. I hadn't been around him when he was drinking before, so because that made me uncomfortable, I wound up not speaking to him. The longest stint of not speaking to him went on for 1 1/2 years from 2005-2006.
He was never violent, never abusive, but he did talk about his pain a lot, and that made me upset (since it was about my mom, and since I really coudn't offer him advice on how to fix it). It was easier for me to label him as an out of control alcoholic than to support him through the grieving process, or to even tell him I couldn't be the support he needed. I couldn't articulate that.
He still goes to the bar every night, but he doesn't always drink. He'll drink 1 drink every other night or so. He's no longer upset, and I do sincerely believe that he was going to the bar for company among other people...I don't think he was ever looking to drink, he was looking so socialize. My reasons made sense to me at the time, but I doubt they made sense to other people, especially my dad.
I can see where Joshua Coleman would have been helpful to my dad in that instance.
Holliberry,
I can see where that would be very hard for you.
Yes, Josh Coleman does say (you probably read this) that its better not to tell ac
you are estranged from about your pain.
I'm glad your dad sobered up more or less.
How are you two relating now?
Dad and I are great now. One day, I just decided to call him and invite him overseas for a visit. He never asked me about why I didn't talk to him, so it has never really come up.
After a few years of marriage, I realized that whatever Dad's problems were, they were his problems, not mine. I wasn't living with him and he really wasn't hurting me, although he was hurting himself. Acceptance of that fact was a big deal for me. After I accepted that "it was what it was" I could have a much better relationship with him.
I'm not sure why he's never brought up me not talking to him; if he brought it up now (after nearly 4 years), I'd be okay talking about it, but I think that if he mentioned it right away, I might have felt the need to avoid him again.
I'm not saying what I did was right; it was just something that I did. I'd like to think I would've done something differently, but my time away from him gave me a real opportunity to reflect on the good and bad in my relationship with him and allow me to come to terms with that. Still, I know that it probably hurt him worse than the divorce did.
Holli, I believe what you did probably saved his life. Or at the very least, saved his quality of life. He may not have been an alcoholic but self medicating with alcohol can quickly go some places that not everyone can come back from so easily. By not supporting him at that time and early enough, you as his daughter, gave him a really good reason to quit and find a healthier way.
I don't think you did anything wrong, sometimes tough love is called for and is the best kind of love you can give.
Pam,
Thanks for saying that, I hadn't really looked at it like that. I'm not sure if it did or not, but it certainly wasn't my intention at the time. I do remember when he came to visit overseas (10 days) he didn't drink at all. I was preparing for the reality that he would be drinking. I was surprised that he didn't. I'll always wonder if that was for my benefit or his. Perhaps my boundary about his drinking allowed him some introspection too...and gave him a chance to see that cutting back was going to help him most of all. I'll never know, we haven't talked about it; and while I think we could, so much time has passed it doesn't seem worth rehashing everything with him. I'm happy that he doesn't drink as much, and I'm happiest most of all that he doesn't seem as sad anymore.
Tara,
I thought it was just because I don't feel comfortable talking about feelings with my dad, but it's not true; my mom and I've had much more volatile fights and make-ups, and we've always been good at talking about our feelings. I went through several shorter "not talking to you" phases with my mom (she too deployed a few of those back on me), and everytime we'd talk once more, she started saying "Let me just say...," "I'm still not over...," or "You know the last time I saw you..." That meant we were headed for a fight and more silent treatments toward one another. She finally hung up on me one day when I was pregnant and I called her right back (I normally e-mailed her after hang ups). She picked up and said, "Hello." I said, "Hi." She then said, "Let's just forget everything, and start over." We haven't fought since then (1 year to the date I believe).
I think Coleman may be onto something about waiting awhile. Neither my mother and I have been particularly good at letting things go. Talking about it just escalates it. We basically have decided that the best way to remain mom/daughter and good friends is pure 100% acceptance; we take everything at face value, and if I'm upset about something, I sit on my feelings for a little while and they begin to disappear. I think she does the same thing, instead of addressing it right away.
I fully expected Dad to drink. I was prepared to handle the aftermath: him talking about mom, maybe crying, and telling me how wonderful I was (that was the worst for me for some reason; it seemed so tragic). He didn't do any of that. It was wonderful. I never asked him not to drink.
My relationship with my mom is probably not as close as it used to be, but I think it is the best it can be when I think about her current needs and my current needs. There are areas we're just not willing to go to because we'll just hurt each other; I'm not willing to lose her and she's not willing to lose me.
So, yes, I think you're totally right about that; my mom and I had this urgent need toget all the feelings out on the table, and maybe that isn't always helpful.
Holliberry,
not sure what happened but a couple of my posts disappeared.
You answered one of my questions: about whether you ask your dad not to drink when he came to visit you abroad.
and you mentioned you didn't.
Sounds like things are pretty stable right now with you and your parents. How old are you HB? You have alot of wisdom.
Its taken me a long time and old age ;- ) to gain some wisdom.
My youngest brother died of alcoholism Its genetic, and my maternal grandfather was an alcoholic
thats probably where he got it from. My other brother abused alcohol, he would drink a six pack of beer a day and
then an amazing thing happened. He got into hand gliding and it takes alot of stamina so he quite smoking
and quite abusing alcohol. Miracle. Then he told me once, knowing I'd worked in alcohol treatment, that
if I ever saw him abusing alcohol he wanted me to confront him. I've never seen that however since those
early years.
I don't know about you, but i've noticed that with my sister and brother that we go in and out of being closer and then
more distant and then closer. Sometimes, its just whats happening in our lives, other times there is an issue. Lucily
all is well with us now.
I see that. Maybe ask Luise where they went?
I'm 27. Alcoholism runs in my family (so I hear anyway, my Grandfather's liver went long before I knew he drank). I think that fact coupled with my dad's sudden drinking made a lot of red flags in my brain go off. I do drink too, but every few weeks and a glass of wine or two. My migraines keep me in good check with that anyway; alcohol is a trigger for them, so it's one of the many things I have to use on the lighter side of moderation.
I do think that all relationships go through close times and afar times, particularly siblings. My brother and I were very close during and after my parent's divorce, and we've drifted apart after getting married and moving. I saw this happen with my parents and ILs too, but once their parents died, they got very close to one another once more. Also, I've noticed that for my older cousins that have kids my age, they are closer with their own parents now that their kids are grown. The only thing I can attribute that too (b/c there really hasn't been strain) is having more flexibility and time.
My husband and I open a bottle of red wine and then more often than not we forget about it and it goes bad in the frig.
We don't like it when that happens, esp with a good bottle of wine, but then I tell him "hey, its not all bad" its a good indicator we don't have any compulsions going.
Well, I'm off to a meeting. Good connecting!
I don't know. The either must have swallowed them. :(
I also have been listening to Josh Coleman's seminars~~i take what I need and leave the rest. His March 10th seminar sounds interesting~~"How to Stop Blameing yourself and get on with your life"~~dealing with guilt, anger, sorrow and regret...
And holliberri, I am sooooo HAPPY for you.....You have come a long way with your Dad.....I have to admit that in "different circumstances" the "Why's" and "How Come's" are not always important to know. What is important is the relationship that is now growing between you two. Leave the past where is and enjoy today.....I really do feel strongly that some day your Dad will tell you what happened and why--but let him begin his story....Forgiveness opens many doors and one of them is truth.
Same thing with my YDS with our communicating now~~~I just dont care at this point about the "why's" and "How Come." Maybe way down the road it may surface--but only on his part will it begin, for right now I am just enjoying the new door which opened--the talking and laughing along with the Love which is important~~the past is the past and that is where it stays.
Hi Faith,
I was wondering if it was you that Josh Coleman referred to about having contact with your ds and quite
spontaneously.
I'm really enjoying his seminars and learning alot and like you can take what is relevant to me and leave the rest.
No, that was not me....sorry... :)
Hi Tara, Opps forgot to mention~~I too enjoy his seminars...where was he years ago???? :)
No kidding Faith, would have saved me years of turmoil and missteps.
I'm not really sure where to fit this in, but I thought here might do, since it deals with estrangement.
My mom and I have been getting along wonderfully since our last estrangement (14 months now! :D ). I don't really feel comfortable going into all the details, but we were talking about someone and their relationship with their children. She said she didn't believe that they missed their children b/c of how they were acting.
She then went onto explain that everytime we had a fight and weren't talking, all she did was cry and worry and get angry. She said she even went to therapy, so even if she couldn't work on it directly with me, she was working on it somehow.
I was taken back by this; mom taught me to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and deal; crying wasn't a option. I remember not talking to her and thinking, "She doesn't care." I had no idea the turmoil she was in, although I knew that I was going through that same exact turmoil. I was also going to therapy and crying behind closed doors; but she doesn't know that, somehow I wasn't comfortable enough to get the same words that she said out.
That entire time we were thinking the worst of each other: that the other one just didn't care. It turns out, and she still doesn't even know that I was doing the same thing she was, that both of us couldn't have been further from the truth.
I just thought that was interesting since so many of us think that the other person doesn't care during estrangement. It's probably pretty likely they may be going through the same pain we are, we just can't see it, or they're not verbalizing it.
I am not sure that my thinking she really didn't care (and vice versa) led to a much longer estrangment. Just b/c she wasn't showing me that she was hurting doesn't mean that she wasn't.
I have to say, meeting half way and being flexible has helped both of us.
I'm glad she felt comfortable telling you that Holli. I am sure we all assume many things we shouldn't. I know I have at times.
Er...I meant "I am sure" not "I am not sure."
Sorry.
Like your attitude Dear Faith.
The past is in the past...look forward to a bright future.
Love