So, I've noticed a startling trend in our posts, and I'm wondering if anyone else notices it...
Nearly all of our MIL/DIL posts are regarding Dear SONS, and the women they marry/date/intend to marry and those MIL/DIL relationships. Mothers of daughters don't seem to post that much, does that mean they're not having the same issues? What does that say, statistically, about those MILs? Do we see our daughters differently than our sons?
I may have totally missed those posts, something that reads like: "HELP! My SIL is Tearing My Family Apart! He's....(blah blah blah)"
I realize this is a "different" can of worms, but I just started thinking about it, and now I'm fascinated and I want to research it! Ladies, what are your thoughts on this?
I am not American but in my home country there's a anecdotal story about how a typical mother talks about the spouses of her children.
It goes as follows:
My son-in-law is the most wonderful man. My daughter is so lucky to have him. He pays for her school, hobbies and buys her nice gifts, my daughter can go out and spend with her friends, he helps her out in house chores and fulfills her every wish.
My daughter-in-law on the other hand is too lazy and demanding. My son has to do all the work around the house, pay for her hobbies and drive her around. She goes out to party with her friends, while my son stays at home and he constantly needs to do things for her.
;)
The saying: A daughter is daughter for the rest of your life, a son is a son until he takes a wife. I wish I had all girls!
My SIL is fine. He is actually confused by our situation....He says he would be mad at his wife, my daughter if she ever treated his mother with such disrespect. But....he isn't insecure in his relationship. I think that makes a difference.
QuoteMy son-in-law is the most wonderful man. My daughter is so lucky to have him. He pays for her school, hobbies and buys her nice gifts, my daughter can go out and spend with her friends, he helps her out in house chores and fulfills her every wish.
My daughter-in-law on the other hand is too lazy and demanding. My son has to do all the work around the house, pay for her hobbies and drive her around. She goes out to party with her friends, while my son stays at home and he constantly needs to do things for her.
WHOA FAITH! LOL! Do you realize that your Son and your SIL do the EXACT same things? I hate to point out the obvious but.....
1. Pays for hobbies and nice things
2. Helps around the house (in whatever capacity)
3. Lets her go out with friends
It sounds like your SON does all the things your perfect SIL does, and your DD and DIL get similar treatment from their marriages...but you think of them differently? Your daughter is a lucky girl to have this guy who gives her everything she wants. Your DIL gets the exact same things, but she's bad? Interesting.
It sounds to me like your son gives your DIL everything your SIL gives to your DD, but you wrote about one very positively and one very negatively. Very interesting!
Here's a thought: Does your DIL's mother think her SIL "is the most wonderful man?" She should! How ironic would that be!!
I now miss_priss :)
I am not a MIL myself though, I wrote that this is how a typical mother would talk about her son-in-law and daughter-in-law. It is more meant as a joke but there is some truth to it.
I heard that one before....it's just a joke. Faith, thanks for making me laugh.
Kathleen: Thank you for seeing things in my eyes today. You spoke what I needed to say. I appreciate that.
Quote from: ohboy...??? on August 04, 2010, 02:19:55 PM
I heard that one before....it's just a joke. Faith, thanks for making me laugh.
Kathleen: Thank you for seeing things in my eyes today. You spoke what I needed to say. I appreciate that.
I love Kathleen and I need to add her to my love post. :)
It's pretty obvious that the dynamics can be very different. I never had a daughter so I haven't had first-hand experience. But mother/daughter add SIL...great. Mother/son add a DIL...watch out prevails! Hummmmm....
We've had mothers of daughters write about SILs who are trying to separate their daughter from her FOO, and the response has been quite different, if I recall. I think I remember people writing in about it being a form/symptom of abuse & that abusers will separate their spouse or partner from friends and loved ones. Shouldn't the opposite also be true? That a DIL who wants to "cut DS from the herd" be considered abusive as well?
Also, we tend to not say about a wife who is being separated from family and friends, "She's doing it of her own accord - if she wanted to maintain a relationship with her FOO she would 'grow a pair' and do so."
Abuse is abuse? Goose/gander?
You Bet daughter's can be the same way! I have been posting about mine under Adult Sons and Adult Daughters. I would appreciate any replies to my posts. If you read my first one that says I am new. I was really desperate then. I have a son and a daughter-in-law and do not have the problems I do with my daughter and boyfriend. When my daughter had her first baby, I was with her for anything she needed or needed to buy at a sale or discounted price. Do I get any thanks now, NO. The first father was never involved in her daughter's life. We were a family to her and babysat or did anything to help in her raising while our daughter dated and went to meetings AA. Now, she changed once she has a boyfriend that makes more money than us and gives her whatever she asks for. He bought a house for them. My daughter did not want to marry yet. He is wonderful with our first granddaughter, but disrespectful to me at times.
So, I still ponder, why me? But this website shows that I am not alone. Again, please reply to any of my posts. I need all the help I can get. cdb PSSS, going to print off the newborn's pic from the computer hospital site so I have one to show people :(
There are many reasons why Miss Priss: Good thought provoking thread...thank you
While there are many problems out there between mothers and daughters, seriously don't think it's as prevalent as between MIL's/DIL's.
And there are hoards of MIL's/DIL's who do get along, so they are not looking for websites with the same problem.
As far as SIL's and MIL's it usually works unless the SIL is abusive, lazy, etc. However, usually opposite sexes get along famously.
As far as women, they can be brutal...which is one of the reasons why DIL's and MIL's don't get along....some women will hold a grudge forever, some women are controlling...some are down right sick....
I work within a huge corporation and I'd never work for another woman...in all the years I've worked, have only encountered two women who were good leaders.....and I mean no insult to anyone here....however, it's what I've seen and many others have seen. Most women were put in positions b/c they are women...they are coddled by they're hirer....they have children at home and some of them are down right angry they are working....or feel guilty...some blame everyone else for they're mistakes...some are so concerned about creating a position for themselves, they will step on anyone to get where they're going....I've seen women come into a position, and illogically do wasteful things, I've seen women ruin careers and lives....some micro manage...I've seen they're secretaries cry and quit and bounce back and forth in positions, due to the deplorable way women run they're groups. Some even encourage back stabbing....and believe me, there are men like this, however, not nearly as many.
What I'm trying to point out is that women can be difficult to get along with....and a mother doesn't get to choose her son's wife. Or visa versa...so, you clash two women together where one or both are stubborn....immature, jealous, demanding, has no regards for boundaries...and expects something she's always dreamed of in a marriage or in a DIL but it doesn't work out that way...well, you're going to have a problem.
Believe it or not, I work with many young girls who are career oriented, with college degrees...we've talked about this subject many times...however, these women are mature and confident....I've noticed, and again, please note, I'm not talking about anyone in here....it's what I've observed outside of this forum in real life.
First, I've never known anyone personally who had a MIL/DIL problem. And the young girls I work with all love they're MIL's, dearly....but again, they are very confident girls, who are brilliant, and aware of the feelings of others...they've not only got a good education under they're belts, but also travel and worldly experiences with all kinds of people. I think that makes a big difference. Not in all situations, but many...another reason is when people come from horrible childhoods...that also adds to the situation...
If a person is immature, has very little confidence in themselves....hasn't had an education except for high school, hasn't traveled and has a hard time with social skills that person, might, and I say might, be a problem in a MIL/DIL situation.
because there are also many women who come from that same kind of background who are very stable successful people.
So one can attribute many reasons to your question...many...and I do believe there are people out there with SIL problems, however, the SIL is so abusive, that they would fear writing in any forum.
But there are many more problems with women then there are with MIL/SIL's. Because opposites attract.
And I'm certain there are FIL's who don't like they're SIL's however, men don't let it get as bad as women do...you put two women in the same kitchen, your bound to have problems...LOL
(Please excuse me if I am veering too off topic here but I want to jump in).
Creme I have had both male and female supervisors. My co-workers and I have had the male boss - female boss discussion. I have had female supervisors I've enjoyed and been highly motivated to work for, and those good women all have one thing in common. They all smoke cigarettes.
When I first saw a picture of Barack Obama smoking outside the White House, it made me feel good. I think I imagined him getting a few minutes to get his thoughts together, regulate his breathing, and then coming back in with a good sense of his next task at hand.
(I don't smoke and never have, neither do my parents or DH.) Just anectodal observation...
Sassy - that made me laugh, because I think you have a point there! :D
I used to smoke when I was in college and when I first started to work in my field...I miss that few minutes to breathe some "fresh air"(LOL), collect my thoughts, get my act together, and go on about my day. I quit smoking a few years ago and I know it was for the best, but the years I smoked were definitely the "calmest" of my life!
Quote from: Sassy on August 05, 2010, 09:57:41 AM
(Please excuse me if I am veering too off topic here but I want to jump in).
Creme I have had both male and female supervisors. My co-workers and I have had the male boss - female boss discussion. I have had female supervisors I've enjoyed and been highly motivated to work for, and those good women all have one thing in common. They all smoke cigarettes.
When I first saw a picture of Barack Obama smoking outside the White House, it made me feel good. I think I imagined him getting a few minutes to get his thoughts together, regulate his breathing, and then coming back in with a good sense of his next task at hand.
(I don't smoke and never have, neither do my parents or DH.) Just anectodal observation...
I smoke, but have presently started Chantix...so wish me luck...
I find your observations interesting...but can understand the logic behind it....
thanks
There are some women who are in leadership who are really good, but in my opinion, more that are not....
Quote from: miss_priss on August 05, 2010, 10:01:59 AM
Sassy - that made me laugh, because I think you have a point there! :D
I used to smoke when I was in college and when I first started to work in my field...I miss that few minutes to breathe some "fresh air"(LOL), collect my thoughts, get my act together, and go on about my day. I quit smoking a few years ago and I know it was for the best, but the years I smoked were definitely the "calmest" of my life!
Good for you, congratulations...just hope I don't turn into one of those obsessive anti smokers, b/c I've quit....LOL
I think the trend with conflict between MIL and DILs/Sons is prevalent for two major reasons.
1. More of those sons were brought up by single parents, often by a strong woman and an absentee/negligent father. They are used to women having the power role and I think there is also hostility towards both parents from the son's childhood that is expressed "via" the DIL. "It's not me, it' her, and poor me, I'm caught in the middle" seems to be their refrain.
2. Today's DIL is more likely to be indulged by boomer parents who thought she was their "Princess" and wouldn't dare do anything to hurt her feelings.
It's a recipe for disaster on the part of the MIL and the only good news is that these marriages have a 50-50 chance of survival, so it can be a waiting game, that starts after the wedding. I've come across a few couples where the wife is a nasty piece of work, the husband is a passive nice guy and people don't want to spend time with the couple because of "her".
It there are children born, well, then of course the DIL moves from the "Princess" role to "Queen" because she will treat her children they same way she was brought up. I've found over the years that these people know who they can "prey" on, they know who will say "NO" at the drop of a hat, and they know whose "buttons" they can push to give them what they want. They are very canny, and sometimes lazy, but they often get what they want with the "broken record" technique.
Things have changed, when I was married almost 40 years ago the MILs had the power to approve/disapprove of the DIL's cooking/cleaning skills and woe to her son if she didn't approve....just watch Everyone Loves Raymond.....the battle lines between Marie Barone and Debra are very clear, and funny when it's in someone else's house.
Quote from: Keys Girl on August 05, 2010, 12:29:25 PM
I think the trend with conflict between MIL and DILs/Sons is prevalent for two major reasons.
1. More of those sons were brought up by single parents, often by a strong woman and an absentee/negligent father. They are used to women having the power role and I think there is also hostility towards both parents from the son's childhood that is expressed "via" the DIL. "It's not me, it' her, and poor me, I'm caught in the middle" seems to be their refrain.
2. Today's DIL is more likely to be indulged by boomer parents who thought she was their "Princess" and wouldn't dare do anything to hurt her feelings.
It's a recipe for disaster on the part of the MIL and the only good news is that these marriages have a 50-50 chance of survival, so it can be a waiting game, that starts after the wedding. I've come across a few couples where the wife is a nasty piece of work, the husband is a passive nice guy and people don't want to spend time with the couple because of "her".
It there are children born, well, then of course the DIL moves from the "Princess" role to "Queen" because she will treat her children they same way she was brought up. I've found over the years that these people know who they can "prey" on, they know who will say "NO" at the drop of a hat, and they know whose "buttons" they can push to give them what they want. They are very canny, and sometimes lazy, but they often get what they want with the "broken record" technique.
Things have changed, when I was married almost 40 years ago the MILs had the power to approve/disapprove of the DIL's cooking/cleaning skills and woe to her son if she didn't approve....just watch Everyone Loves Raymond.....the battle lines between Marie Barone and Debra are very clear, and funny when it's in someone else's house.
OMG....where have you been? My hero and you leave? ???
Quote from: Keys Girl on August 05, 2010, 12:29:25 PM
I think the trend with conflict between MIL and DILs/Sons is prevalent for two major reasons.
1. More of those sons were brought up by single parents, often by a strong woman and an absentee/negligent father. They are used to women having the power role and I think there is also hostility towards both parents from the son's childhood that is expressed "via" the DIL. "It's not me, it' her, and poor me, I'm caught in the middle" seems to be their refrain.
2. Today's DIL is more likely to be indulged by boomer parents who thought she was their "Princess" and wouldn't dare do anything to hurt her feelings.
It's a recipe for disaster on the part of the MIL and the only good news is that these marriages have a 50-50 chance of survival, so it can be a waiting game, that starts after the wedding. I've come across a few couples where the wife is a nasty piece of work, the husband is a passive nice guy and people don't want to spend time with the couple because of "her".
It there are children born, well, then of course the DIL moves from the "Princess" role to "Queen" because she will treat her children they same way she was brought up. I've found over the years that these people know who they can "prey" on, they know who will say "NO" at the drop of a hat, and they know whose "buttons" they can push to give them what they want. They are very canny, and sometimes lazy, but they often get what they want with the "broken record" technique.
Things have changed, when I was married almost 40 years ago the MILs had the power to approve/disapprove of the DIL's cooking/cleaning skills and woe to her son if she didn't approve....just watch Everyone Loves Raymond.....the battle lines between Marie Barone and Debra are very clear, and funny when it's in someone else's house.
Our home was a home where Dad was fully engaged and loved, attending and teaching all the sports, teaching them to be gentle men yet strong. The Princess and the Pea that we got for a DIL was treated like you were talking about, never had one moments problem. Everything was handed to her on a silver platter. I have never seen her even one time ever do anything for anyone else. If something will be to her advantage, she will turn on the charm, if not, she withdraws her attention all together. I will say this, when she turns on the charm, people grovel at her feet. It is unbearable when she withdraws it. The slightest thing will turn her into this.
QuoteThings have changed, when I was married almost 40 years ago the MILs had the power to approve/disapprove of the DIL's cooking/cleaning skills and woe to her son if she didn't approve....just watch Everyone Loves Raymond.....the battle lines between Marie Barone and Debra are very clear, and funny when it's in someone else's house.
Awesome example Keys (and I love your profile picture by the way...I always thought "Keys" was in reference to the Florida Keys.....not actual keys.) =P Good stuff.
"Everybody loves Raymond" is also a good example of the "Good DIL/Bad MIL" scene some of us face. I think we'd all agree that Debra's a good, reasonable person. She's not manipulative or unkind. But Marie is an "old crone" who constantly complains of her and points out her flaws....not to mention how she coddles her sons (or tries to, much to their chagrin) and her DILs are simply never good enough or doing it right. She drives Debra MAD! Although its a fantastically funny show, what a dreadful idea to have Marie as a MIL! "Someone, please hand me a bullet...oh no dear, I'll just need one."
Great example!!! :)
Quote from: barelythere on August 05, 2010, 12:33:59 PM
OMG....where have you been? My hero and you leave? ???
I didn't leave, Barelythere, I was getting on with my life. I might not be here every day or even every week, but I won't be leaving as in "permanently gone".
Yes, these Princess DILs certainly know how to wrap people around their fingers and turn into "she-devils" if they don't get their way. It's just an adult version of a tantrum, I find myself staring at little kids who are screaming in the grocery store, thinking that is the childish version of their "acting out". I only hope that some day they will have DILs of their own, by then they should be even more spoiled and bratty and will make our DILs wish for our patient and courteous behaviour with them. I hope to sitting on a cloud in Heaven by then and enjoying the company of my grandmother and other favourite relatives who had passed on.
PS. My grandmother was about 5' and 250-300 pounds. They called her "Little Eva" she was feared by absolutely everyone.....some people called her "The General". She wouldn't have put up with any nonsense from one of these Princesses, would have likely tossed her out of the house to land on her keyster before a family dinner if she was whining. Oh, I wish she were still here, she'd make mincemeat out of my son's Princess.
Quote from: miss_priss on August 04, 2010, 02:05:15 PM
QuoteMy son-in-law is the most wonderful man. My daughter is so lucky to have him. He pays for her school, hobbies and buys her nice gifts, my daughter can go out and spend with her friends, he helps her out in house chores and fulfills her every wish.
My daughter-in-law on the other hand is too lazy and demanding. My son has to do all the work around the house, pay for her hobbies and drive her around. Shquote]e goes out to party with her friends, while my son stays at home and he constantly needs to do things for her.[/
WHOA FAITH! LOL! Do you realize that your Son and your SIL do the EXACT same things? I hate to point out the obvious but.....
1. Pays for hobbies and nice things
2. Helps around the house (in whatever capacity)
3. Lets her go out with friends
It sounds like your SON does all the things your perfect SIL does, and your DD and DIL get similar treatment from their marriages...but you think of them differently? Your daughter is a lucky girl to have this guy who gives her everything she wants. Your DIL gets the exact same things, but she's bad? Interesting.
It sounds to me like your son gives your DIL everything your SIL gives to your DD, but you wrote about one very positively and one very negatively. Very interesting!
Here's a thought: Does your DIL's mother think her SIL "is the most wonderful man?" She should! How ironic would that be!!
Excellent observation!!!! For some reason or other women want to see their daughters safely married
Perhaps it is an inbuilt mechanism to protect her from men who may take advantage of her.
So it gets back to the post "Leave and cleave" instruction given to the man because women cant let their sons go as easy to another woman like herself. :-\
Quote from: Keys Girl on August 05, 2010, 02:03:20 PM
Quote from: barelythere on August 05, 2010, 12:33:59 PM
OMG....where have you been? My hero and you leave? ???
I didn't leave, Barelythere, I was getting on with my life. I might not be here every day or even every week, but I won't be leaving as in "permanently gone".
Yes, these Princess DILs certainly know how to wrap people around their fingers and turn into "she-devils" if they don't get their way. It's just an adult version of a tantrum, I find myself staring at little kids who are screaming in the grocery store, thinking that is the childish version of their "acting out". I only hope that some day they will have DILs of their own, by then they should be even more spoiled and bratty and will make our DILs wish for our patient and courteous behaviour with them. I hope to sitting on a cloud in Heaven by then and enjoying the company of my grandmother and other favourite relatives who had passed on.
PS. My grandmother was about 5' and 250-300 pounds. They called her "Little Eva" she was feared by absolutely everyone.....some people called her "The General". She wouldn't have put up with any nonsense from one of these Princesses, would have likely tossed her out of the house to land on her keyster before a family dinner if she was whining. Oh, I wish she were still here, she'd make mincemeat out of my son's Princess.
Yes, I know what you mean about outspoken Grandmothers. God love some of them! One of mine loved gardening so she went around town saying she was the best Hoe-er in the town. She had no idea what she was saying, I don't think. :)
I find this topic very interesting. I thought some of the disapproval/distancing comes fromthe fact that MILs traditions are not the sole traditions to be passed on. The dil in the family will incorporate HER family traditions where as a Daughter passes her moms lessons onto her children.
QuoteI think the trend with conflict between MIL and DILs/Sons is prevalent for two major reasons.
1. More of those sons were brought up by single parents, often by a strong woman and an absentee/negligent father. They are used to women having the power role and I think there is also hostility towards both parents from the son's childhood that is expressed "via" the DIL. "It's not me, it' her, and poor me, I'm caught in the middle" seems to be their refrain.
2. Today's DIL is more likely to be indulged by boomer parents who thought she was their "Princess" and wouldn't dare do anything to hurt her feelings.
It's a recipe for disaster on the part of the MIL and the only good news is that these marriages have a 50-50 chance of survival, so it can be a waiting game, that starts after the wedding. I've come across a few couples where the wife is a nasty piece of work, the husband is a passive nice guy and people don't want to spend time with the couple because of "her".
This interested me because this is how I view my SIL and I'm certain how they view me.... and yes my husband IS the passive nice guy becuase he learned his "place" his needs came after everyone elses in his FOO(still do). Now I am perceived as the nasty piece of work because he no longer lays down for them (although I definitely wasn't raised and do not raise our daughter princess fashion.z0 Much to think about
Reflection: I have been thinking about the Princess stuff and relating it to my own long, long life. Princesses were few and far between during the depression. The few who were "spoiled" were ridiculed because it was such a rarity. However, in my FOO birthdays were the exception. No money for parties, of course, but the birthday-child was Queen for a Day! We got to dictate the menu for supper and the kind of cake! Powerful stuff! There were a few little presents and lot of fun and laughter. And at 83...I still can't wait for my birthday and I still feel like it is a National Holiday! ;D 8)
Luise you are a whole lot less than 83 in your attitude to life.
My word just being able to run a website like this shows how much you still have to give.
My left number changes this month on 22nd --Like this 60 but I would rather be 60 than O9 mths. Know what I mean?
Haha, Creme, I've taken to avoiding my smoking friends outside the office building because it makes me crave. Same thing with designating my home as a no smoking zone. It's not because I object to it, but because it's torture to smell it around me and not be able to have one.
This is a little off the ONLY sons topic but in reply to two posts here: Luise, I loved your post about the "good old days." A few years back I got a letter from a friend I hadn't heard from since teen years. I was just re-reading it the other day when you posted. I was remembering the very simple times we had. A big event of the summer was the church ice cream social. We all dressed in our best and sat at tables under lovely trees, and ate ice cream. It was a big treat. Wedding receptions were held at home or in the church basement. And they were lovely, with home cooked food, although usually the cake was from a bakery. Confirmations and other marking events always had home receptions.
I noted your hilarious comment about the nude weddings. My goodness, Luise, please tell us more! I think this is a great idea, because it would eliminate so much of the gawdiness and expense of today's weddings. True, my home in New England is cold in the winter, but brides that wanted white would be right in style, and during a blizzard they would have a nature-made garment to wear! Just some boots and a fur hat would complete the outfit!
Creme, I am so glad you are quitting smoking. I quit thirty years ago and have never looked back. I think a lot of success in this is based on what works for you and figuring that out. For me, I couldn't do one day at a time, I had to tell myself that was it and I would never smoke again and I never did. I can't be thinking "just for today," tho I know that works for many people. I also had a brand new baby at that time and was motivated to stop so he wouldn't grow up breathing smoke.
There is almost no better thing you can do for your health. One does run the risk of starting to preach to others after one quits. I tried to get a friend to stop and she had all the reasons why not, "Life is too stressful, my mother just died, etc." Now she has Stage 4 lung cancer and is in the battle of her life. I am so glad to read you are quitting. It's really worth it, and congratulations to you on having the courage and the determination to do a very, very difficult thing. Hang in there! It gets easier and easier as time goes on, soon you won't miss it.
Kathleen
When I was a kid and ran with an older crowd...peer pressure brought me to smoking at age 13. The only health caution was that "smoking stunts your growth," which didn't daunt most girls. We all wanted to be cute and little.
At age 39, I remarried and my guy said my smoking was the one thing he didn't like about me. (He was a former smoker and preached.) He said that he would start up again, get hooked and quit with me, if I would agree and I did. (Is that love or what?) On my 40th birthday, eight months later, I said 'OK! Now!" He had a terrible time and so did I but we made it together and he probably saved my life.
When I smell cigarette, it makes me sick and I have "moderately severe COPD" as a reminder that we were designed to breath air, not smoke. (Firemen wear masks!)
That has got to be one of the cutest things I've ever heard. Seriously :)
;D 8)
Quote from: elsieshaye on August 07, 2010, 06:00:37 PM
Haha, Creme, I've taken to avoiding my smoking friends outside the office building because it makes me crave. Same thing with designating my home as a no smoking zone. It's not because I object to it, but because it's torture to smell it around me and not be able to have one.
LOL, that passes, and then it gets really really stinky...and you wonder, how could you have done that...
never smoked in my house...always outside...I have a covered porch...the cravings are lessoning...however, it's not happening as fast as it did the last time...sure hope it works....
Quote from: luise.volta on August 08, 2010, 10:12:06 AM
When I was a kid and ran with an older crowd...peer pressure brought me to smoking at age 13. The only health caution was that "smoking stunts your growth," which didn't daunt most girls. We all wanted to be cute and little.
At age 39, I remarried and my guy said my smoking was the one thing he didn't like about me. (He was a former smoker and preached.) He said that he would start up again, get hooked and quit with me, if I would agree and I did. (Is that love or what?) On my 40th birthday, eight months later, I said 'OK! Now!" He had a terrible time and so did I but we made it together and he probably saved my life.
When I smell cigarette, it makes me sick and I have "moderately severe COPD" as a reminder that we were designed to breath air, not smoke. (Firemen wear masks!)
Luise, my girlfriends sister has copd? So sorry to hear....
Both of my parents smoked when I was a child. I must have reeked, but most of the other kids in school did too, I guess. Smoking was really common back then.
Regarding the COPD: I go years without having to use my inhaler but when a bug comes along and gets in my lungs, I'm in deep trouble. I find the best thing for lung health is aerobic exercise. Sending love...
Quote from: Pen on August 11, 2010, 09:45:07 AM
Both of my parents smoked when I was a child. I must have reeked, but most of the other kids in school did too, I guess. Smoking was really common back then.
yes, back then there were a heck of a lot more people smoking then there is today...and as I'm certain smoking is bad for you, there are many, many more people with cancer then ever before...I don't buy they're claims...one of my best girlfriends died of lung cancer and never smoked a day in her life...now another close friend has it, and she tells me, when you go in for treatment and just see how many adults...and this doesn't inlclude the children...I honestly believe a lot of cancers are caused by all the chemicals we inject daily...plus when you reach the age of say 55, you are now a prime candidate for any illness, heart disease and so forth...so logically, all this stuff about smoking, is a smoke screen, no pun intended...and yes, smoking is not good for you..but the first thing someone says when they're 98 year old mother died is, "did she smoke"....sheeesh? Next is over weight people...you watch...they are starting all ready....if your overweight, it causes cancer?
Quote from: luise.volta on August 11, 2010, 09:59:53 AM
Regarding the COPD: I go years without having to use my inhaler but when a bug comes along and gets in my lungs, I'm in deep trouble. I find the best thing for lung health is aerobic exercise. Sending love...
I bet my friends sister is in the hospital at least once a year with it, and yes, she to must be very careful not to get a cold or worse....I'm going to ask her if her sister would consider that aerobic exercise...thanks Luise...
and be well.....
hugs
Creme,
I read your post about cancer. Yes, there are many, many people who can smoke and get away with it and never get cancer. My grandfather was one of them. He smoked at least two packs of unfiltered Camels per day and never got lung cancer.
Instead, he got heart disease and died from it.
My aunt, his daughter, too, believed that smoking did not really lead to cancer. She always told me, "When your number's up it's up, smoking or not." Then she got esophageal cancer and died, and on her death bed begged her daughter, a smoker, to quit. (Her house was a smoke factory when the two of them got together and inflicted it on the rest of us; it WAS their house.) Smoking and drinking together, which she did, makes you 15 times more likely to get esophageal cancer. It's all how you want to play the odds.
Yes, there are people who get cancer and never have smoked.
But smoking greatly increases your odds of lung cancer and other illnesses. This cannot be denied; it is a medical fact, not a fact-fad. When I stopped denying it, I quit.
I hope so much for you that you can quit,
Kathleen
Back on topic, I am the DD who had a problem with her mom, or rather my M was an MIL from you know where. She expected to be right in the middle of my M. She felt entitled to know about our sex life, our arguments, and our finances. She thought we should do exactly what she told us to do regarding our children. She expected me to call her every day, and for us to be at dinner every Sunday. She expected each of us to confide in her about the other person. She expected to go on our vacations, on our date nights, and on any trip we took even if it was to a local big box store.
When I insisted on healthy boundaries, she blamed DH. Nothing he could do was right. She complained to my siblings who reamed me out. She made up stories, or took our words or actions out of context to make herself look like a victim. She used my children to get to me. She undermined me as a parent and did her best to poison my children against DH (we are a blended family). In my first marriage, she actually insisted I choose between her and my then H, and I could tell she was going to try the same trick with DH even though it didn't work the first time. I headed her off and made sure she knew my loyalty with with my DH. So, she made all of the rest of the family, including my children, choose between me and her.
The result is that she is cut out of my life. She thinks it is all because of DH, but I think it would have come to this even if he weren't around. She was partially responsible for the break up of my first marriage and I learned from that experience that if I wanted a healthy marriage, I needed to set healthy boundaries with my Mom. Since she cannot handle boundaries of any sort, it was inevitable that we would have problems.
Growing up, I felt like I had a bucket of emotions inside that always had to be available to my mother to stir up or dip into as she needed. I had no control over it at all. As I grew up, I learned how to deflect her overwhelming emotional needs somewhat. As an adult, I refused to be responsible for her emotional needs. I expected her to put on her big girl pants and learn how to deal with them herself. This is were the real problem was, I took control of when I would be emotionally available to her. She couldn't use me anymore.
How amazing that you stopped the pathology and didn't become your mother. A beautiful testimony to accessing inner resources and taking responsibility for your own well being. Growing up with a damaged person as a role model so often causes confusion and permanent harm. My hat is off to you, seriously!
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
I agree somewhat with the ideology of "we are what we're raised to be," but it also seems so reasonable to think that we as adults make our own lives, our own choices, our own mistakes, our own personalities. We truly do have the power within ourselves to break the cycles impressed upon us by our parents.
You could have chosen to follow in her footsteps and use her as an excuse for your own actions...but you chose to break that cycle....kudos to you Justus!
Good for you, Justus, my own mother was a blend of positive traits and hidden hostility.
I haven't seen her in 15 years, but still send cards and gifts. I like to think of her negative traits as the "Lead by Bad Example" and have tried to keep the positive things she taught me and let the rest fall by the wayside.
This was in this weekend's Dear Abby newspaper column. It made me think of this thread.
As such I wondered, is it usually "ONLY" husbands (i.e., sons) who are so willing to let his wife take the heat or the blame for his issues with his parents. This letter almost seems an anomaly, because it is the Daughter who is mistreating her husband in an attempt to avoid honest communication with her parents. I read this and I thought, if she could try to be a better wife, she would probably also ultimately be a better daughter.
DEAR ABBY: My childhood was difficult. My mother was a bitter, unforgiving, jealous woman. My father traveled a lot for his business and just tolerated my mother when he was home. I decided to never have children to bring into this family.
When I first met Dave -- my husband of 10 years -- I told him my feelings. He said it was fine with him -- he never had a strong desire to be a father. Until recently, our marriage has been a happy one.
After constant nagging by my mother about "When are you going to give me grandkids?" I lied and said that Dave had a low sperm count and we wouldn't be having any. Now Dave is no longer invited to their home for monthly Sunday dinners.
Mother is suggesting I divorce Dave and marry "someone who can give her grandchildren." Dave says that because he is "uninvited" I shouldn't go either. My father sides with my mother and says she's a lonely person. He says he will change his will if I upset Mom by not visiting.
Abby, this has caused a real strain on our marriage. Please help. -- NOBODY'S MAMA IN CALIFORNIA
DEAR NOBODY'S MAMA: I'll try. The success of a marriage is not measured by the ability to produce grandchildren. If you hadn't lied to your mother, she wouldn't be blaming your husband for the fact that she doesn't have any. Tell her the real reason why you won't be having children, and how she influenced that decision. Her treatment of your husband and her meddling in your marriage are outrageous.
Tell your father to keep his money, and if your mother is "lonely" it's his job to fill her empty hours. If you allow your parents to continue to manipulate you, you will find yourself alone.
QuoteDEAR NOBODY'S MAMA: I'll try. The success of a marriage is not measured by the ability to produce grandchildren. If you hadn't lied to your mother, she wouldn't be blaming your husband for the fact that she doesn't have any. Tell her the real reason why you won't be having children, and how she influenced that decision. Her treatment of your husband and her meddling in your marriage are outrageous.
Tell your father to keep his money, and if your mother is "lonely" it's his job to fill her empty hours. If you allow your parents to continue to manipulate you, you will find yourself alone.
What good, sound advice.
That Abby is a Sweetie!
Wow. Does this letter to Abby represent the very worst a mother-in-law can give out, or what? No wonder we sometimes get a bad name. This MIL from down below engages in practically every bad behavior possible.
My own MIL, too, dangled a "will" in front of everyone, picked favorites, and all this outlasted her death. It put the nails in the coffin of any possible positive relationship for my husband and his siblings. The will was merely a continuation of the competition she started among these kids in childhood. As adults, they might have come together, but even now as seniors they continue to compete with each other for love and approval that never will come.
I so much hope this young woman's marriage will survive. But I totally agree with Abby that she should consider coming clean with her mother, and forget about the will. In my MIL's case, as it turned out, all the money was spent anyway by the time she died, and all that was left to fight over was a collection of items of no real value. (My brother-in-law had purloined the possibly valuable coin collection years before. That BIL, by the way, spent a miserable life waiting first for his wife's inheritance, then for our aunt's. He was dishonest as the executor of our aunt's will. I guess he
lived for this stuff because he was so unsuccessful in all the businesses he tried.)
This young woman really owes it to her husband to take him off the scapegoat list, I think. But I'm not so sure I would start a rumpus by "telling the real reason" for the lies. This is not a woman who will be receptive to hearing about her faults. And she will likely start a new round of bad behavior if she feels accused of that very thing.
I found this letter to Abby very interesting. Any other comments?
I do love Abby and feel her advice was great.
Kathleen
MIL stereotypes are certainly enforced by these horror stories, but that doesn't mean it happens more often than DIL horror stories. DIL stereotypes (sweet young thing trying to please critical MIL, for example) don't reflect many of our situations.
IMHO, there is a real double standard at work. If I express my sadness at the loss of contact with DS, it may be assumed by the general public that I:
Can't let go
Am mentally ill
Smother
Control
Should blame DS
Am jealous & resentful of DIL
If the situation were reversed, the stereotypes might be:
DH is trying to separate his wife from her family & friends
It's a sign of abuse - DIL's FOO should interfere to save her!
What a jerk - he should allow her to see her family
Poor DIL's dad - he's lost his little princess
Poor DIL's mom - she's lost her baby
DH is smothering
DH is controlling
I do not appreciate being pre-judged and thus treated badly by DIL & her FOO based on old, outdated stereotypes and cruel MIL jokes when my situation is quite the opposite. Except for this site, there really isn't anyplace I can tell my story and be heard. Even DH falls into the MIL stereotype trap every now and then, and he never had to deal with one himself since my mom had passed on before we met.
Hi Pen - Yanno, I don't think you fall into that stereotype. Your story is a sad one, with more than one side, I'm sure. Just as there is more than one side to all our stories.
But I think it's important to remember that there is a reason for that negative MIL stereotype, because those MILs are indeed out there. We all know at least one! But that doesn't mean they are all that way, and I think most people realize that, so don't feel pre-judged dear. If you know in your heart of hearts that you tried to be the best MIL possible, then whether it was accepted or not, you did the best you knew how. And if you don't fit into that stereotype, then you can hold your own head high and know that you don't. It doesn't matter what others think. We all make mistakes, but you can sleep at night knowing you did the best you could.
What is that saying? "Those who don't mind are the the ones who matter, and the ones who do mind don't matter anyway."
It's a sad thing to lose any family member, especially for reasons we can't control. I know you wouldn't believe it, but DH and I really grieved over MIL. We'd both had such a perfect picture painted for our life, with full extended families, happy children we could drop-off at my mom's house or send to his mom's house for summer vacations. We wanted his mother to be part of that, and Lord knows we tried. When we cut her off, we realized the "perfect picture" we had painted...well, we were just going to have to re-paint it, without her, and that was painful.
Your DIL may be a real troll indeed, but here's what I pull out of your post...you have a stereotype of DILs in mind too, and you have applied it to your own DIL. Please know that I am not trying to hurt your feelings here, but be careful not to be "the kettle calling the pot black." By using the same negative stereotypes you feel you unfairly fell into, you are putting yourself down on that level. You're better than that dear. Chin up!
Quote from: Pen on August 18, 2010, 09:01:26 AM
MIL stereotypes are certainly enforced by these horror stories, but that doesn't mean it happens more often than DIL horror stories. DIL stereotypes (sweet young thing trying to please critical MIL, for example) don't reflect many of our situations.
IMHO, there is a real double standard at work. If I express my sadness at the loss of contact with DS, it may be assumed by the general public that I:
Can't let go
Am mentally ill
Smother
Agree, Pen and don't forget that we're
Control
Should blame DS
Am jealous & resentful of DIL
If the situation were reversed, the stereotypes might be:
DH is trying to separate his wife from her family & friends
It's a sign of abuse - DIL's FOO should interfere to save her!
What a jerk - he should allow her to see her family
Poor DIL's dad - he's lost his little princess
Poor DIL's mom - she's lost her baby
DH is smothering
DH is controlling
I do not appreciate being pre-judged and thus treated badly by DIL & her FOO based on old, outdated stereotypes and cruel MIL jokes when my situation is quite the opposite. Except for this site, there really isn't anyplace I can tell my story and be heard. Even DH falls into the MIL stereotype trap every now and then, and he never had to deal with one himself since my mom had passed on before we met.
And don't forget that we're somehow enmeshed in our son's life taking the place of our sorry husbands with whom we haven't a good relationship. We're also narcissists and manipulators and whiners.
That may be true at times...but not always. Sending love...
Miss_Priss, for some reason you didn't understand my post. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.
I was comparing the differences between the generally held beliefs about MILs & DILs, not stating my own feelings about my own DIL. I think you may have been reading too quickly and just caught a couple of words that led you to believe I was saying something else.
Quote from: Pen on August 18, 2010, 09:20:59 PM
Miss_Priss, for some reason you didn't understand my post. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.
I was comparing the differences between the generally held beliefs about MILs & DILs, not stating my own feelings about my own DIL. I think you may have been reading too quickly and just caught a couple of words that led you to believe I was saying something else.
You were totally clear.
Thanks, BarelyThere. I know you understand.
Pen, I actually feel that there is a DIL stereotype out there too. Counselors are quick to suggest that the Son/DIL give in and ignore their needs for the sake of the husbands family. The son's FOO will likely back the mother and shun the DIL for making MIL upset sometimes justly, often times they couldn't be more wrong. His FOO grew up with MIL and often can't see when her requests are reasonable or unreasonable and they blindly follow and really, they shouldn't be involved in the first place. I think there are a lot of pre-conceived notions the DIL has to fight and struggle with to make herself understood and clear. And, I also think that family cut off is rather new in our society and the stereotyping of a Son/DIL who actually will cut off family is unjust. The thing is now, difficult relationships are often seen as optional and when a dysfunctional FOO hasn't encountered consequences, they don't really get what is going on.
The difference is that I personally think that a lot of the times the struggles (and this is ALL generalization, I know your story Pen and I do agree with you) between MIL and DIL are unneeded. A lot of the struggle is about control and when MIL engages in it, she automatically loses and I think for *some* MIL's that is not an obvious consequence. It's fairly new in our society and I don't think it crosses some MIL's mind that they just might get the cut. I think once the MIL engages, she lost. And it's a terrible price to pay for wanting control of something that she didn't have a right to in the first place.
The thing is, I think when someone is truly a difficult DIL, more often than not, they are going to be a very difficult MIL to someone some day. It's not the label DIL or MIL that makes you evil, it's how you act. But each role DIL or MIL does carry rights and responsibilities and I think MIL is often on the weaker end, which is not meant as an insult, it just is nowadays.
Perhaps, but I have yet to see DIL as the butt of a New Yorker cartoon or a sitcom. It would have been helpful to me, when DS started dating seriously, if I'd known there was a possibility that he'd fall for a "cut from the herd" woman. Because the stereotypes I was familiar with were all about awful MILs, I focused on my behavior so I wouldn't be that way. I'm gearing up to deal in a healthy way with being denied access to whatever GC come along, because I now know what the possibilities are (thanks to WWU.)
I think you're talking about something other than generally-held stereotypes when you say that the MILs family will often back her up against DIL, rightly or wrongly. That's family loyalty, not a common stereotype as widely portrayed in jokes or TV/films. If it is portrayed, the MIL more than likely comes off badly there as well.
When DS announced his engagement, none of our friends said, "Oh, you're in for it now. You know how those DILs can be, you've heard all the jokes/ stereotypes, etc." I did hear comments about overbearing MILs, however.
If you can think of shows, films, jokes or cartoons where the DIL is the evil/controlling/ugly/greedy/smothering one, and the MIL is portrayed in a positive light, I'd be interested in knowing about them and willing to change my belief about the unfair balance of these stereotypes.
There is nothing out there shedding a positive light on MILs. I think when we're hit in the face with a selfish DIL, it sometimes makes us feel desperate. We are Mothers who have been shut out for absolutely no reason, SOME OF THEM, NOT ALL OF THEM can't have access to even a photograph of the GC.
It would have been the best thing in the world to me if someone would have told me about this struggle to be perfect. You do miss your son, you really do.
QuoteThere is nothing out there shedding a positive light on MILs.
That may have been true...until Luise's wisewomenunite.com came along! :-*
You betcha ;D
I know I wasn't sheltered as a child or anything, but for some reason, for many years it appeared to me that all of the MIL jokes that I was exposed to were of the the man or DH joking or complaining about his wife's mother. So the "battle " was between DH and his MIL, not DH's wife and his mom. So honestly, I feel like I got hit with a left hook when my MIL began behaving like a selfish baffoon. I'd never seen anything like it, and let me tell ya, I've seen a LOT!
It wasn't until a year and a half after we were married and I kicked him out (he was gone for a week) and told him to go back and live with his mom since he was so espoused to her anyway, that I began doing research and finding that it was more "common" to be in the scenario I was in.
I also want to add that many of my married friends have amazingly wonderful relationships with their in-laws, so that was the normal thing I saw, and also what I expected to have with my in-laws. So again, my MIL really threw me for a loop. I wish we didn't have to cut her out of our lives, it's not something I ever wanted. Sometimes I live in the could've, should've, would've frame of mind and think, "if only DH would've stood up to her and set boundaries in the beginning then it wouldn't have to be this severe." Unfortunately it took a long time for him to face the facts.
If it's any consolation though, I would gladly trade any of you MIL's for my MIL. We could let my MIL and your DIL have a go 'round together! ;D
I often dream of putting "those" MILs and DILs together on a raft and pushing them out into shark-infested waters! ;)
Hee hee....I love when Luise says that!
No thank you.
Oh, phooey...
Quote from: luise.volta on August 19, 2010, 12:05:50 PM
I often dream of putting "those" MILs and DILs together on a raft and pushing them out into shark-infested waters! ;)
Quote from: Pooh on August 19, 2010, 12:13:00 PM
Hee hee....I love when Luise says that!
Hmmm...apparently it's a common thought on here, huh? Maybe someone should submit that idea so that they ["those " MIL's and DIL's"] can be the butt of a New Yorker cartoon. ;)
I often wish I could draw a cartoon when something like that comes up but alas, I have no such talent. I can paint pictures with words though! ;D
Pen, the moment anyone says anything about their wedding having issues with the in laws, Bridezilla comments come out. The stereotype is there and kicking.
Another common stereotype is that DIL's take Sons away. The stereotype is also there that after marriage the DIL and Son become closer to the DIL's parents.
The entire MIL/DIL relationship is often times categorized as a stereotype.
Quote from: luise.volta on August 19, 2010, 12:40:24 PM
I often wish I could draw a cartoon when something like that comes up but alas, I have no such talent. I can paint pictures with words though! ;D
And in that, sweet Luise, you are truly an artist.
;D, Pooh!
And regarding stereotypes, I suppose they surface because something happens a lot. We just have to be careful here to see each other and our issue as unique...because they are. What a bunch of sweeties! Long live WWU!
Yes Sassy its true.
Until Luise site came to sight lol. I went looking for sites about mil's problems with dil. And to my surprise I only found "Mil's from Hell"lol.
Sunny: You see, This problems runs both ways.....abusive and controlling mil/dil. But I do have something to add Sunny.....It comes worst for us mils --- You dil's continue your life with hubby and children (losing only (in-laws). We mils lose our son and grandchildren. Things got out of control when your husband did not set limits. I would adopt you as a dil..... promise to love and respect you ...lol.
I share a quote with you:
We look forward to the time when the Power of Love will replace the Love of Power. Then will our world know the blessings of peace.
- William E. Gladstone
Hugs to you.
Me, too, I keep drawing up imaginary adoption papers all the time! ;D
Beautiful, Nana. How true. We had no place to go at all. There is nothing out there for MILs. The sites for DILs to moan about their MILs will eat your breakfast, lunch and dinner if you tangle with them. They have a ton of power.
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power"
Abraham Lincoln
For the first year we were www.MotherinLawsUnite.com, as you know. Then so many lovely daughter in laws came our way (bless your hearts) ...that we had to change out name! ;D They didn't want to roast their mother in law, they wanted to understand them better and if possible create peace. What a great gang you are...all of you!
Barelythere":
I was thinking how things and people have changed in their values. When I was raising my three kids, I felt so flattered and so lucky having my in-laws (mil and sil) loving my children so much. My mil had only 6 grandchildren (three were my children) and even felt that even though I was not the daughter they were closer to my children. My hubby use to tell me that it seemed his mother loved me more than him. Of course it couldnt be true, it was just that we as women had many things in common and did women things.
There was a time I had serious problems with hubby and mil and sil stood by me all the time. We worked out things. We are now a big close family. Dont know when all this started but now the dil's theme is "
The farther the better" . I understand this from all those dil who have the mil from hell.....but some good mil's never had the chance....they were pushed out "just in case" lol.
Random thoughts!
I know, Nana but we're supposed to get over it. It's too much to just get over. It's a death and we have to go through much grief till we get to the other side. This is the only place where you won't get kicked off because you're grieving.
Quote from: pam1 on August 19, 2010, 12:55:19 PM
Pen, the moment anyone says anything about their wedding having issues with the in laws, Bridezilla comments come out. The stereotype is there and kicking.
Another common stereotype is that DIL's take Sons away. The stereotype is also there that after marriage the DIL and Son become closer to the DIL's parents.
The entire MIL/DIL relationship is often times categorized as a stereotype.
The "bridezilla" still gets to have a fabulous wedding and be the star of the day! No one cuts her off from her wedding because of her behavior; everyone understands that it's a stressful day for her and she wants everything to be the way she wants it to be. They may chuckle about it but when all is said and done they accept it as her right. I don't see the same understanding for MILs at all, even MILs who aren't monsters.
Regarding the stereotype that DILs take sons away, I'd not heard that. I asked for examples, but no one's posted any yet. Perhaps my first marriage would have worked better if I'd known I had such power.
Yes, I agree that the entire MIL/DIL relationship is often stereotyped, but to the detriment of MILs (Debra & Marie on the"Raymond Show.") That's my point!
[quote author=Nana link=topic=848.msg16954#msg16954 date=1282257365
Until Luise site came to sight lol. I went looking for sites about mil's problems with dil. And to my surprise I only found "Mil's from Hell"lol.
Sunny: You see, This problems runs both ways.....abusive and controlling mil/dil. But I do have something to add Sunny.....It comes worst for us mils --- You dil's continue your life with hubby and children (losing only (in-laws). We mils lose our son and grandchildren. Things got out of control when your husband did not set limits.
[/quote]
Nana, I was on that Mother In-Law Hell sitetoo, but I just thought seemed so one sided with whiny DIL's.
And about it being worse for MIL's, I beg to differ. We don't always just move on with DH. You see, my DH was actually one of my best friends for years before we had dated. Since he is 5 years younger than I am, it had never even occurred to me to date my friend.
We had even as friends counseled each other thru each others relationship issues with others before we dated. We were in a crowd of friends at the time that had mainly met thru a couple of local church groups of young adults.
I had known DH had a crush on me, but it wasn't until I was talking on the telephone one night, consoling him thru a breakup with his then girlfriend, that it hit me. Almost literally,like the lightbulb came on as I was reminding him of what a great guy he was. I was rattling off all of his great qualities when it occurred to me that those were all of the qualities I had been praying for in any man that would step into my life...
We still didn't start dating until a couple of years later, at which time I told him about the lightbulb- telephone moment.
So fast forward to now...this is a man who slowly gained my trust and respect over many years as a friend. I had been so worried about our age difference and maturity level when we began dating, but even that was proven to a non-issue between us. ...Then we got engaged and the MIL issues started.
That's when the walls began to crumble. DH didn't know how to handle his mom's behavior. I could see it for what it was, but he couldn't. So he continued allowing her to manipulate him. Her hypocrisy was so unbelievably blatant, I just sat in shock and awe pondering how DH could continue playing her game, but play into her is exactly what he did. Mom's feelings were always hurt, and DH HAD to fix her feelings which was always conveniently at the expense of mine.
All of that to say....just because it finally came to an ugly head, and we cut MIL out, doesn't mean that our lives just go on as if nothing ever happened. You see, my DH was much more committed to another woman along with her lies and hypocrisy on our wedding day,and just because the"other woman" was his mother, it doesnt make the pain any less.
An event that should have been happy, was surrounded with misery, and every day that passed DH continued putting her first. And every day he didn't set boundaries or defend me or protect me from her was one more day that I lost a little more trust and respect for him.
Our lives have not just happily gone on. I don't feel the same way that I was did about my DH, the man who was once my best friend, the man who spent so much time gaining my trust and respect, so painfully easily trampled on my feelings to put lies and hypocrisy before our relationship.
....that is why I am on here. How do rebuild a relationship after that?
And Nana, I don't want to minimize your feelings as a MIL that's been cut off, as a mother myself I couldn't imagine what that pain would be like. I'm just trying to paint the picture that life just doesn't easily go on after having to make the tough decision of cutting MIL off.
Lots of clarity there. We have similar experiences but none are the same. And we often only know part of the story.
Trust is so hard to rebuild. I can forgive but when trust is broken, that's something else.
Your DH was programed. It is on a level down below rational thought and logic. And it's been there all his life. His mother did what she thought mother's should do...and it turned into pathology for both of them. Now, it seems to me that a good counselor is going to be needed to help repair the damage. My heart goes out to you. Sending love..
Sunny 1:
Yes you are right. In your case your marriage suffered because of your mil and the way your husband handled the situation (or did not handle). It must have been very painful because you have felt betrayed and are disappointed that He who was your best friend before did not set boundaries.
I was seeing it differently. I thought that we mil's usually have more to lose because our sons normally decide to support wife (which is only normal) because its the person they are committed to. When I was having problems with dil, I know my son witnessed the rudeness in dil's attitude and behavior to us (hubby and I). He complained once in a while to her but that was all. He let her be. When I decided to move on because I couldnt take it any longer, I did speak to son and told him about my decision. He understood perfectly well because he knew and saw all that was being done to us. He respected my decision and told me he loved me and I told him I loved him too and that was something no one could change. Sunny, I did feel that I was in a lot more pain than dil (in fact I thought she didnt care). I really thought that my life would never be the same after this experience and losing gs and son. Things did change thank God. But when I was grieving, I really, really was a reck, totally depressed.
I understand now that it has not been easy for you. I do hope your son understands that his mom caused all this mess and I do hope you forgive him for not being strong enough to deal with this.
I do hope things will turn to be what they use to b. Think that he is a good man and that is why to laid your eyes on him. It has not been easy for him to let go...good-hearted man.
You need to do a lot of talking with your husand.
I wish you the best of luck.
Bless your heart Sunny, your situation has caused much pain for you and your DH. I understand how you feel when you say "DH betrayed you by not standing up for you." My ex-MIL was really awful and my ex-DH never stood up for me either, and that hurt.
But I can look back now and honestly say, he was lost. This is the person he grew up with, and although he knew her behavior was bad, he was used to it and she had always been that way. This was "normal" for him. He knew she was wrong, but he accepted her as the person she was and just went on. Their entire family did.
I think now you have to be the accepting one. Not of MIL, but of DH if you want to rebuild your relationship. You are going to have to look at it as he didn't betray you, or disrespect you on purpose, he just didn't know what to do. All those things about him that you fell in love with, are still there. But now, you have to go past the hurt to see them. You had no hurt in your way when you were just friends and falling in love, so those qualities were easy to see.
I am not saying that you are wrong to feel any of that. It is very hurtful when the person that loves you, doesn't protect you. But I see from your stories that MIL is now cutoff (rightfully so). So that says to me, that DH does value you enough to realize you come first. Does that mean he is not hurting or feeling badly about cutting his Mother out of his life? No way...that is a hard thing to do. Does that put obstacles in the way of your relationship? Absolutely, because now both of you are hurting.
Your DH sounds like a good person, and you sound like a very understanding, giving Lady. I truly hope you both can find some peace and work through your issues and get back to where you want to be.
Quote from: Sunny1 on August 19, 2010, 12:26:19 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on August 19, 2010, 12:05:50 PM
I often dream of putting "those" MILs and DILs together on a raft and pushing them out into shark-infested waters! ;)
Quote from: Pooh on August 19, 2010, 12:13:00 PM
Hee hee....I love when Luise says that!
Hmmm...apparently it's a common thought on here, huh? Maybe someone should submit that idea so that they ["those " MIL's and DIL's"] can be the butt of a New Yorker cartoon. ;)
yeah, but think about it, then, they'd together have to work as a team...to survive...in other words, adapt to each other and not take everything so personal....yanno...they'd be forced into getting along...
yes, I could see it as a cartoon but also see the reality of truth in it.....
Good ONe Louise!!!!!!! I like it....
Quote from: Pooh on August 20, 2010, 06:12:40 AM
Bless your heart Sunny, your situation has caused much pain for you and your DH. I understand how you feel when you say "DH betrayed you by not standing up for you." My ex-MIL was really awful and my ex-DH never stood up for me either, and that hurt.
But I can look back now and honestly say, he was lost. This is the person he grew up with, and although he knew her behavior was bad, he was used to it and she had always been that way. This was "normal" for him. He knew she was wrong, but he accepted her as the person she was and just went on. Their entire family did.
I think now you have to be the accepting one. Not of MIL, but of DH if you want to rebuild your relationship. You are going to have to look at it as he didn't betray you, or disrespect you on purpose, he just didn't know what to do. All those things about him that you fell in love with, are still there. But now, you have to go past the hurt to see them. You had no hurt in your way when you were just friends and falling in love, so those qualities were easy to see.
I am not saying that you are wrong to feel any of that. It is very hurtful when the person that loves you, doesn't protect you. But I see from your stories that MIL is now cutoff (rightfully so). So that says to me, that DH does value you enough to realize you come first. Does that mean he is not hurting or feeling badly about cutting his Mother out of his life? No way...that is a hard thing to do. Does that put obstacles in the way of your relationship? Absolutely, because now both of you are hurting.
Your DH sounds like a good person, and you sound like a very understanding, giving Lady. I truly hope you both can find some peace and work through your issues and get back to where you want to be.
Sunny, I agree...especially the part about cutting his mother out of your lives...that, was a very difficult and painful thing for your husband to do...
Our husbands/son's are hurting just as much as we are....believe me, some more...if you can imagine?
Your on the right course....but things take time...and have to be handled in each own person's time...I mean, try and understand...while his mother is wrong...very wrong, it's difficult for a child to admit they're parents weaknesses...we've been programmed to respect our parents...and it's proven, that even children of abused parents....excessively abusive will indeed defend they're parents...
So what I'm suggeting is put yourself in his shoes, and think about how you would feel...you can't change people in a hurry, it takes time...however, if your patient and understand...it will go a lot further....then if you try and get 100% results right now....each little improvement is a milestone, look at it that way, then give it time....make him think he's making the decissions...encourage him and tell him your there for him....don't take offense when he defends her....he's not rejecting you in anyway or saying your wrong...he is caught in a real bad place...and it's not easy...he does indeed love you...be secure and sure of that....
hugs
Creme
Sunny1 - I get what you're saying too. I am not a MIL, I only have a small child, but I can't imagine the pain that must come with being cut out of your child's life...for normal REASONABLE people. But Sunny1, let's face it...MILs like ours are NOT reasonable, and thus they are cut off and we are here. The reasonable, respectable MILs here truly are grieving, in a process that is healthy (with support, encouragement, bonding friendships, venting, understanding). MILS like ours, on the other hand...their method of "grieving"is victimizing themselves for false sympathy and then plotting their revenge. And that's very sad. That may not apply to all the monster-type MILs, but it does apply to my own.
I was too on the "Mother-In-Law Hell" site. There's some crazy stuff on there, and I think there is a need for that type of site...for those who just wish to "wallow" in it and complain. That was awesome when I just needed to vent and get it all out. Then, I created my private blog. There, I am anonymous, and I never use my name or hers...and its not for anyone to read, respond to, or advise on....its a place I can say the things to her that I want to say...without ever really saying them. I can scream at her, I can write in all caps if I want to...and its for no one but me. That helps me release the steam. But this site has been so much better, for me anyway, to gain some similance of understanding of why this all happened, the psychology behind it, and understanding my own reactions to it. The biggest difference is the positivity and encouragement here. Good spirits for the most part.
Yes, that's the core of our site...to find ways to survive and not get stuck in the "Somebody Done Me Wrong, Song" that can create victims and cause more harm than good. People can become addicted to hate sites and hate hurts the hater too much to encourage that. Our goal is healing...finding ways to get on with our lives. We are love-based.
Yes, healing is the goal. But sometimes I resent the reason I have to be the one to heal ???
DIL admits we've done nothing wrong, but the result is the same as if I were one of the nasty MILs on one of the evil MIL sites. It's not my behavior that put me here, but hers. Yet I'm the one who has to heal in a "process that is healthy" or whatever. Sometimes I wish I had done something I could apologize for so I could just get it over with. Alas, I shoulder the burden of being a good MIL.
I agree. Justice and fairness...where AAARRRRE you? And of course all parties need to heal. If not in this life...in the next? Sending love...
Quote from: Pen on August 20, 2010, 10:07:38 AM
Yes, healing is the goal. But sometimes I resent the reason I have to be the one to heal ???
DIL admits we've done nothing wrong, but the result is the same as if I were one of the nasty MILs on one of the evil MIL sites. It's not my behavior that put me here, but hers. Yet I'm the one who has to heal in a "process that is healthy" or whatever. Sometimes I wish I had done something I could apologize for so I could just get it over with. Alas, I shoulder the burden of being a good MIL.
I do know what you mean, Pen. Did you happen to watch that TV show, The Middle this week? I'm not much of a fan of sitcoms but this one is so cute. Her son was dating this girl who was ordering him around and the Mother heard her tell him that her parents were way better than his. Course, the Mother took it to the edge and had them married and them never seeing their grandkids. He found another girl so all went well. In real life it get much more hard to take.
Quote from: Pen on August 20, 2010, 10:07:38 AM
Yes, healing is the goal. But sometimes I resent the reason I have to be the one to heal ???
DIL admits we've done nothing wrong, but the result is the same as if I were one of the nasty MILs on one of the evil MIL sites. It's not my behavior that put me here, but hers. Yet I'm the one who has to heal in a "process that is healthy" or whatever. Sometimes I wish I had done something I could apologize for so I could just get it over with. Alas, I shoulder the burden of being a good MIL.
I agree with Pen that it is soooo not fair and makes me mad too. Then I try remember that all control related issues are about the victims learning to heal. In child molestation, a rape or other things where they didn't do anything wrong either, but have to find a way to heal themselves. We are no different.
This may not be true for others but when I don't heal, it's because I get stuck in being right. :(
Quote from: luise.volta on August 20, 2010, 10:54:05 AM
This may not be true for others but when I don't heal, it's because I get stuck in being right. :(
Boy you are so right!!! Hah, no play on words intended....
I was sexually abused as a child, from the time I was 5 years old...my real mother hated me, hates other people, was jealous of me, made me go to work when I was 13 and hand over all my pay checks to her (I really didn't mind, b/c I knew she was struggling) however, she constantly blamed me for her life...heard the same stuff all over again...wouldn't let me go with my friends, literally mocked me, told me over and over again...every body loves you, but they don't know you do they...and I was a child...or I could have given you up for adoption, but decided to keep you...or slapped me so hard across the ears that I am hard of hearing to this day....gave me bloody noses, embarrassed me in front of my friends...did horrible things I couldn't even write about....had husbands run around on me...two failures...I felt like my son, was the only thing I had done right...I didn't choose my mother, I don't think? ;D
What I'm trying to say, and don't get me wrong, there are many people who have had it, much more difficult than I have...however, the saving grace was, I literally prayed so hard every night.."Please don't let me be like my mother, please?" And I fought it with all my might, observed other people and knew at a young age, this wasn't the way to be...went to church as a child...grew up with a lot of good influneces in my life and fought it darn hard....it was a very very long fight, more then 1/2 my life....
hating was the easy part...forgiving takes work...but the outcome is...so much more to life....I won't ever compromise peace for anyone again...and will continue to strive to learn how to deal with relationships, and not allow people to dictate to me, how to live my life...and will not be a door mat, but fight back like a lady...if need be....won't ever loose my self respect again....and it takes reconditioning....and perhaps, that is my only purpose in life? I don't know...but I tell you ladies, it's been one heck of a ride...a great one...and I'm not sorry...nor do I or can I hate....
my attitude is, you don't like me, that's fine and your choice...we can't all like each other, however, I won't allow anyone to treat me like I'm no good....I can stop it with a look and just by turning around and walking away....but I won't allow someone else to bring me down to they're level and fight like that....after I fought back, I felt worse then before...and what it was about was the fact, that I hated myself for reacting so badly...was embarrassed, made the person I was fighting look like they were the ones that were right....and there are people who are darn sharp and quick witted with words....they push your buttons...on purpose (it always shocked my whole system when people argued like that, right into a state of confussion, which is what they want to do, to deter you from the subject to appear right)...I am not quick witted... however, I won't buy into it either.
Awful and beautiful! Viva la Creme!! Sending love...
Quote from: luise.volta on August 20, 2010, 10:54:05 AM
This may not be true for others but when I don't heal, it's because I get stuck in being right. :(
luise, you are so right. I know that I am stuck there. I had been told by him and his family that I was wrong for so long, even though they arrogantly and blatantly hypocritical, I just waited for DH open his eyes to it. Somewhere along the line though, my patient understanding of his position within his family's dysfunction started turning to bitterness and resentment, and now its outright anger. I often feel like an emotional basket-case because I still am very much in love with him, but I'm so angry with him too.
I have been talking with someone /counselor for the last 8 months. DH has not, he says he wants, but his actions speek louder than his words.
He had also, "said" for a long time that our relationship was his first priority, but his actions always put his mom first. I feel that cutting her off this late in the game was futile.
He had already trampled on me and our relationship so much that I had kicked him out, he had allowed his mom to be that much of a wedge in our relationship, she succeeded inruining our wedding and our marriage. I'm so angry with him for allowing it to get that far, and only jumping on board when he knew for certain that I'd more than reached my limit of tolerance and patience . By that time he'd been acknowledging her foul actins for quite some time, he just wouldn't do anything about them.
I want to thank you ladies sooooo much for all of the advice, and apologize for not getting back sooner. But once again, giving 110% of myself, I had planned a nice little romantic weekend away with DH this past weekend to celebrate his birthday ...sometimes I feel like all of my efforts are pointless. :(
Sunny, I swear you and I are very much alike. My first marriage is very, very similar to yours in many ways. I will tell you two things I learned, AFTER the divorce.
1. I had never let go of all the hurtful things he did. I thought I had, but yet, I realized I never got past them.
2. I spend 21 years waiting for him to "get it". I kept trying and trying. He never did.
So, the downfall of my marriage was both of us. Even though I was doing all kinds of things for him and kept trying, truly by not letting go of the past, I wasn't. And because he never "got it", he had no desire to mature and grow in the relationship. It was both of us.
Sunny1 - I understand, and I sympathize with you. I can relate to that same anger and frustration, the feeling betrayed and trampled on. The hardest part is when others (and your DH) tell you "oh, you're just reading her wrong, that's not her, she would never do that!" Its like you just want to smack those people on the forehead, and say "how can you NOT see what she's doing?!?!?!" It makes you doubt your own intuition, your own feelings, and makes you question your own sanity, when in fact, you're not the problem at all. MILs like ours would treat anyone that way, for the simple fact that we are a threat to their control and manipulation over their sons. It's a sad thing.
It used to anger me a lot when people showed sympathy towards her. At one time, I could semi-confide in my SIL. After one of MILs screaming tantrum shenanigans at our home, of course MIL told SIL what monsters we were, and that we kicked her out for no reason, and she "just couldn't figure out what she did wrong." When I told SIL why we had asked her to leave (she called DH a "spoiled bastard," and told him to go <BLEEP> himself, and to go to hell and take me with him...SIL had the audacity to say "well, she only acts that way because she loves him so much, and you are interfering in the close relationship they used to have." REALLY??? Confirmed: It's not just MIL. It's SIL too. They're nuts. That's not how you show "love."
DH's like ours are programmed to respond in a certain way to mommy. We have to remember that their very survival depended on it when they were children, and those survival mechanisms are so ingrained that well into their adulthood they still lack the ability to form healthy boundaries. Of course that will cause resentment! We fell in love with men who basically already had wives, and before we realized what trouble we were in for, it was too late, we already loved them.
Couples counseling is the best place to start working through that anger and resentment. I promise, there is hope, and the relationship can be repaired. It takes a lot of work, but you can get there! Believe in eachother, and hold eachother up. :)
I just realized that I am also a Daughter-in-Law. Wow, it is good I don't have any current issues with that one :) cdb
cdb - Whew!