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Problem Solving => Grandchildren => Topic started by: Gmom on June 12, 2011, 08:57:02 PM

Title: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Gmom on June 12, 2011, 08:57:02 PM
any more.  Especially if he's with his parents.  I use to be with him but he has gotten so horrible and there's nothing I can do to work things to be alright if his parents are there.  He doesn't respect parents or grandparents and every little thing is such a big problem.  They debate with him and stuff.  He is exceptionally bright.  His parents have no idea what normal is.  Like you ask a kid four y/o to do something and he is suppose to do it.  The kid only does that way too little of the time, and frankly I can't handle all the wierd talk and convincing that goes on to get him to finally oblige.  Where in the world are his parents coming from??   They are very intelligent people. Both of them had normal respect for adults and were never allowed to be like him when they were kids.  They have ruined him so far and I can't handle it.  It is just a mess and I see no reason to hang out.  A kid who is a pleasure to be around is not him.  My plan is to just kinda skip trying to be with him.  Just do a token thing here and there.  And wait.  Surely this has to pass.  Surely his parents will eventually see that this mess needs to be cleaned up. 

I actually felt that it was my responsibility to try to get them to see what was going on.  I felt I had nothing at all to lose, so I wrote them a letter telling them that I felt I had a responsibility to tell them the good, the bad and the ugly.  That perhaps they were too close to the situation and could use the help.  I know they weren't all that thrilled with the letter, but I feel that I have done my part.  I told them I loved them also, and so I let the chips fall where they may.

So.......of course I'm on here wanting, definitely not needing, but wanting affirmation.  To be exact, I would like to know if any people here have not wanted to be around their own grandchild and have questioned themselves on that.  I never, ever would have thought that I would avoid my grandchild.  I wanted to have a close relationship with any I would have.  Maybe I was just so wrong on my own character and acceptance level.  Somehow I just assumed that the kids would be like the parents were as children.  A real pleasure to be around.  As it is, I question that any purpose would be served to be with him.  It seems like I'm enabling a bad thing.

You been there?
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: luise.volta on June 12, 2011, 09:09:08 PM
Welcome - IMHO - Parents can create monsters. Childhood isn't a debate forum. Children need direction, limits, boundaries and a firm hand to feel safe. The brighter they are the more they need it. Brightness doesn't replace wisdom and can be a liability not an asset. I don't think writing was a good idea. It's a one-sided communication that can be misunderstood and can come back to haunt you. Sending love...
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Gmom on June 12, 2011, 09:50:28 PM
It's a one-sided communication
My son answered the email basically saying that he didn't see it that way and that when I'm not around, the kid is different. Which is just so not true.  My presence is not even related to the way they live their life with the kid, and what is accepted by them as normal interaction w/ him.

But I replied that if things are actually not the way that I observe them to be whenever I'm not there, then I was mistaken in my conclusions.

Anybody not wanted to be around their grandkid before?  Or am I the first on here?
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: lancaster lady on June 12, 2011, 10:06:50 PM
GNOM .......hello and welcome ......I wish you had got here sooner ....First thing is ,he's not your son ,you are not the parent .I say this with the utmost respect but we grandparents have to accept this quite early on I'm afraid .How they bring up their son is their business . Now this is not to say we have to like it but its a fact .Modern attitudes are totally different  , don't know if you read about the case of allowing children to decide what gender they would like to be,and how bizarre that was .It's like giving a child  a French food menu and asking them to chose .How on earth a small child is supposed to know how to act in different circumstances is beyond me ...... in my experience they learn by example ,if not.given guidance they become confused and mixed up and hence the bad behaviour .... saying all this might not help you , just want to explain  that you have to stand back and let them get on with it . Rightly or wrongly,he's their child ,their methods .I think new parents read too many childcare books ,in my own experience anyway .Don't give up on your grandson,after all he's just a wee chap learning the ropes .
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Gmom on June 12, 2011, 11:20:17 PM
I believe that I had responsibility to tell them what I saw going on.  In years to come it will be known that I cared and that my motivation truly was to help my grandson.  My first responsibility isn't to be sure they like me or that we hang out.

I'm wanting to hear if anyone else can confess that they truly do not want to be with their young grandchild, albeit temporarily.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: lancaster lady on June 12, 2011, 11:47:09 PM
Gmom:
I appreciate what you're saying , however on this forum you may find that many G/Moms are forbidden from seeing their grandchildren not the other way around .
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: RedRose on June 13, 2011, 03:56:44 AM
If you insist that you are right and the parents are wrong you take the chance of never seeing them or your grandchild again..is this what you want? Sometimes you just have to let things go. Let the parents raise their child and handle problems when they come up. It is not your responsibility unless they are abusing him.

I really feel that a 4 year old acting bad is probably just a phase.

I would never, ever..Not want to be around my grandchild.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Pen on June 13, 2011, 06:57:18 AM
Gmom, welcome. As LL said, your situation is a switch from the usual GP complaint of never getting to see the GC! I do understand your desire to say something, and I hope you spoke more from the standpoint of observation rather than criticism. Even so, it's a tricky subject as you obviously know.

Parents these days have more concerns than simply facing criticism of their childrearing methods, such as seeing signs of autism, abuse, ADHD, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc. Not that those things didn't exist when we were growing up, but that we are more aware of them now. A savvy childcare provider or pre-school teacher will surely speak up if she/he feels your GC's behavior is unacceptable for his/her age group and developmental stage, and it may be easier for his parents to hear it from a professional. If there are issues that need to be dealt with they can get the resources they need through the school district or a health care provider.

IMO we all have the right to avoid people that make us uncomfortable, which means you as well as your DS & DIL, who may or may not want to continue a relationship if they feel judged. Perhaps you could state your reluctance to be around your GC more as a personal issue (Gran's high blood pressure, Gran's low tolerance for noise these days, Gran's lack of energy to deal with youngsters, or whatever fits) rather than a criticism of the child or parents. The parents will (we hope) get the point without feeling you think they're incompetent parents or that their child is unlovable. Once broken these relationships are very difficult to mend, as most of us here know.

Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: pam1 on June 13, 2011, 07:49:45 AM
Welcome Gmom :)

Please read the Modified Forum Agreement under the category Open Me First if you haven't already done so.  We ask all new members to do so not b/c there is anything wrong with your post.

I tend to think feelings are feelings and it is difficult and unhealthy to deny a feeling, the best you can do is not act on it.  Like Pen said, in these types of situations it would be difficult to mend fences someday.  Not everyone has to know our opinions or feelings and this would be one of the times I kept it to myself.  Just my thoughts
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: luise.volta on June 13, 2011, 07:58:22 AM
Not only is writing a letter a one-sided communication but so is the answer. There is no exchange back and forth that involves body language, tone of voice or facial expression. It's sterile and without the human qualities that can soften it and maybe even save the day. There's no opportunity to change position...to shilft perception. No room for the visible warmth of human empathy and understanding. 

That said, I think what you are finding here is that no one would dislike a little grandchild to the degree that you do for any reason.

I am the exception...to date. I do not love all children, related or not, any more than I love all adults. I would not want to be around such a child. I agree that it is the parents' right to raise a child as they see fit and to not listen to anyone or see their error. However, it seems to me that you told them what they didn't want to hear (and already know) and their defense is that it's you. Give me a break.

I wouldn't have written the letter...but I would distance myself and not be part of their lives. I just wouldn't be able to stomach it. It would be heartbreaking for me to know how much the child was going to be disliked by anyone and everyone that crossed his path and what his future teachers were going to be up against and the unspoken rejection and contempt he was going to have to face and live with. I simply wouldn't be able to get past it myself when his response ot me was consistently hateful. He is being allowed to "drive the car" at age 4 and he wants to be stopped because he is on a crash course.

It's not your grandson's fault, on that we all agree. How much any one of us could or would want to tolerate it is about us. I'm with you.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Pooh on June 13, 2011, 08:25:54 AM
Hey Gmom.   I only have one GC that I don't get to see (not my choice) so I can't answer your question.  But I will tell you that I have had relatives children or friends children that I absolutely don't want to be around!  They drive me bonkers!  In my case, it's obviously the parents' fault because they don't discipline them or watch them at all, and it seems everyone else is always trying to make sure they don't run out in traffic or break things.  I don't say anything, because it's not my place, to the children, but I have said something to the parents when they will not stop picking up breakables or things.  Doesn't seem to help past that one moment in time, but then I don't feel so bad when I avoid them.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Ross99 on June 13, 2011, 09:17:31 AM
I can't say about not wanting to be around my grandsons, as I, too, am kept from seeing them. I do know when I was part of the oldest gs life, I enjoyed being with him, but found it so exhausting my max was 2 days...and would have preferred 1 day. DS pushed each time he asked us to watch him (due to distance, this included overnights) for 2+ days. I had him for 10 days once while they were out of the country. Little guy was only a year old. He was a very active and temperamental little one and didn't sleep well at night.
My sisters mil refused to babysit her middle daughter, because she was such a terror. She grew into a lovely young woman though.
Hugs and there isn't anything wrong with you. We all have our tolerance levels for stress.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Sassy on June 13, 2011, 10:05:31 AM
QuoteHe doesn't respect parents or grandparents and every little thing is such a big problem.  They debate with him and stuff.  He is exceptionally bright.  His parents have no idea what normal is.  Like you ask a kid four y/o to do something and he is suppose to do it.  The kid only does that way too little of the time, and frankly I can't handle all the wierd talk and convincing that goes on to get him to finally oblige.  Where in the world are his parents coming from??  

Gmom I am not a grandparent.  But I am quite curious about the type of exchanges you see between the parent and child?

There is a type of discipline called "inductive discipline" or "positive discipline" where parents listen to their children and invite the child to explain why they did what they did.   I wonder if this is what these parents are practicing? 

It's different than traditional "authoritative parenting" (ex: "Because I said so, that's why," "Because I'm the mom and I make the rules.")  It's all about Discussion.

You mentioned your grandson does do what he's supposed to do, eventually, after a lot of talking. The keystone of "inductive discipline" is Discussion.  Parents are understanding of the child's point of view, but they're also supposed to be consistent in their enforcement of the important rules of the house.   It's encouraging your grandson does eventually oblige.   

For "inductive discipline" the idea behind the Discussion is because children are naturally curious.  They always ask "why," about anything.  Including why are they supposed to do this or that.  By answering the why? about discipline with a clear explanation, children are supposed to come to understand that there are clear rules for them to follow, good reasons for the rules, and grasp the natural and logical consequences that follows behavior that is consistent with the rules, in violation of them.  It's supposed to teach them the information they need to have these conversations internally with themself, eventually.

They've been doing studies that came out that children whose parents practices inductive discipline have better self-regulation later in childhood and adolescence than children whose parents rely on less positive styles of parenting.   The children are supposed to internalize what are reasonable rules of conduct and their rationale.  The idea being they teach principles for the child to use in their own decision-making.   It might be annoying to watch, but the long term results are supposed to be good. 

I don't know if this is what the parents of your grandson are doing?  But I wondered if it was possible, and that is how it looks in action to a third party.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Gmom on June 13, 2011, 10:59:54 AM
Wow guys.  Thanks for all the replies which Is a lot to think about.

Luise, I agree that is the perfect exchange.  I just believed that nothing close to that would have happened.  Seems all of us are pretty touchy about people challenging our parenting.  I thought there was a better chance at them analyzing things for themselves this way.  I know them, and I know myself especially and I communicate way better on paper.

In regards to other replies, the parents themselves seem somewhat undone and upset at their experience with him at times.  At times.  And not enough to think it warrants much concern.  Even though he has gotten two slips sent home from preschool this year (he attends two mornings a week) that he has spit in a child's face.  I believe the preschool and myself and other MIL are the only outside comments they receive.

My guess is that this will pass and the very realistic, negative things that Louise mentioned that will occur in his life will be minimized.  I believe in God and so do his parents.  And I believe that they will eventually find His mercy as they acknowledge their need for his help; that doing it their own way didn't work.

Thanks for all the replies.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: luise.volta on June 13, 2011, 11:15:59 AM
I express myself best on paper, too. But oh, the corners I have backed myself into.  :-\
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Pooh on June 13, 2011, 11:21:31 AM
Well, now that one made me think.  I was reading about Sassy's post of "inductive parenting" and trying to size up what I thought of it when I read your post.  I don't think there would be any problem with "inductive parenting" in the home and can see it being beneficial, but I didn't take into account school.  How hard would it be on a teacher and a child to try to discipline a child when the child is used to inductive parenting?  A teacher wouldn't have that type of time to spend with a child trying to explain everything.  I would think that if you introduced this type of parenting, you would need to home school?
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: luise.volta on June 13, 2011, 11:30:07 AM
It was very popular in the 1950s under a different name that I have now forgotten. The premise seems sound but the kids are really screwed up trying to access logic they don't have and aren't supposed to have yet. It created mucho-probems and lots of stress. Many kids ended up feeling later that they were neglected for not having safe and comfortable boundaries when they were little and had a right to expect them.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: cpr on June 13, 2011, 08:11:52 PM
I have to be honest here...I was horrified to think that someone would not want to be around their grandchild.  If my mother wrote me a letter as you have written your son, I would not have been very open to communication about my child with her after that.  I am not trying to be rude, but now that you have told your son that you do not want to be around your GC you may lose access to that child.   If they don't bring your GC around now (as you yourself have said that you do not want to be around him) you can't really complain about that.  I am shocked.  With all of the women that desperately want to have access to a GC to hear of one telling her child she doesn't want to see her GC is ... unexpected to say the very least.

This is your choice, but it has been said now - and written.  You can not take this back and it may have repercussions for years to come.  You have asked not to be around your GC.  Be prepared for them to 'honor' your wishes.

And you since your son said that GC was not that way when you were not around there is another possibility. You seem to be quite comfortable openly criticizing your son's parenting style, you are willing to cut out a 4 yr old child from your life because of what very well may be a phase - could it be that you are being over demanding of the abilities of a 4 yr old that sees you not as a loving Grandma that accepts him and loves him unconditionally, but as a mean lady that is never happy with him or his Daddy?  Kids pick up on these things and it may be possible that he is acting out when when you are around. 

Never say anything about your GC that you wouldn't want them to hear.  No, you did not say this to GC and it is doubtful that your son would ever tell your GC that you said such a thing, but this is a good rule of thumb.  Actually I was raised that you never say anything about ANYONE that you would not want them to hear, but this should hold double with children.  Especially when they are in your own family.

I know this reply may have come across in a hard way, but please know that my heart is truly breaking for you as I am most certain that this will end very badly for you and you will regret it for many years to come.  The hardest part may very well come in knowing that you asked to have him removed from your life. 
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: gretchenw on June 13, 2011, 09:11:54 PM
Quote from: cpr on June 13, 2011, 08:11:52 PM
I have to be honest here...I was horrified to think that someone would not want to be around their grandchild.  If my

cpr says "I have to be honest here...I was horrified to think that someone would not want to be around their grandchild.", and also says a lot of other stuff that I am having trouble reading and stuffing.

I have to be honest here also.  I find it perfectly natural to not want to be near your grandchild.  I don't want to be near mine either.

'Nuf said.  Except that the OP is not alone in this matter.  And from her description, I know for sure that I would agree 100% about her grandson.  Just wanted to weigh in on this matter.  I don't think the OP deserves such deprecation for her honest feelings. 

Nor do I.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: gretchenw on June 13, 2011, 09:23:25 PM
Also want to say that I agree 100% with Luise Volta that children need boundaries.  The parents' job is to be parents, not to be friends and not to be colleagues and not to be debaters.  Children need unbounded love and they need firm boundaries so that they can feel safe.  When a child feels loved and safe at home, then he is able to go out into the world and explore and conquer it.  Love and a safe bounded environment are the responsibility of the parent.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: pam1 on June 13, 2011, 10:20:42 PM
Take what you want and leave the rest. 
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Pen on June 13, 2011, 10:30:04 PM
Yup. One size does not fit all when it comes to childrearing theories or familial love.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: lancaster lady on June 14, 2011, 01:17:36 AM
The thing is .....how would you guys feel if your DM/MIL told you how to bring up your own children ?
Red rag and bull come to mind .
I think the old days of grandma rules are well gone , and maybe not for the better .
My own grandma was the head of my mother's family , and she was respected and loved , and what she said
went without question .Why would you question someone who has raised six children alone as her husband died at 42 .
We kids felt loved and protected in her company , sure she was strict , but her hugs were bear hugs and you knew she
loved you to death .
These days we grandmas get allotted visiting times , and dare not  attempt to mention parenting .
I understand not everyone  is mother earth and welcome kids in any shape or form , maybe thats my problem
and I want to be that 'ole grandma bear , I just love kids !
Getting back .....it's their child to raise how they think best , until he does something horrific for the authorities
to step in , we have to just observe . However if I saw my GD doing something dangerous or downright
nasty , I would certainly step in .....and wait for the backlash !!! 


Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Gmom on June 14, 2011, 01:58:42 AM
from my post -
My plan is to just kinda skip trying to be with him.  Just do a token thing here and there.  And wait.  Surely this has to pass.  Surely his parents will eventually see that this mess needs to be cleaned up.

I actually felt that it was my responsibility to try to get them to see what was going on.  I felt I had nothing at all to lose, so I wrote them a letter telling them that I felt I had a responsibility to tell them the good, the bad and the ugly.  That perhaps they were too close to the situation and could use the help.  I know they weren't all that thrilled with the letter, but I feel that I have done my part.  I told them I loved them also, and so I let the chips fall where they may.


I did what I thought was best.  And certainly not all that was imagined by some on this board.  As far as I know, my son and his wife and I are on good terms.  I gave the kinda help that I know I would need if I were in their shoes.

Thanks for your replies.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: lancaster lady on June 14, 2011, 02:25:41 AM
gmom......that's all we.can do is our best .......some of the ladies here have seen lots of bad stories re gc .....and were trying to give you a broader aspect on diff erent scenarios.....we like to look after our ladies here .....wishing you the best .......LL
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: gretchenw on June 14, 2011, 04:19:30 AM
Quote from: pam1 on June 13, 2011, 10:20:42 PM
Take what you want and leave the rest.

Sorry all.  I wanted to give Gmom a little support.  I imagined that she would be feeling really bad after reading the post prior to mine.  Sorry.  Didn't mean to offend all of you.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Pooh on June 14, 2011, 05:46:09 AM
I wasn't offended, I thought it was good to point out that there are always two sides to any situation and people can only offer perspective.  I think it's a good thread.

So I guess I have to ask, because I kind of assumed something and we know that is not good.  Gmom, are you allowed to discipline your GC when the parents are not around?  I'm asking because I can see where if they do not allow you to discipline because you have different parenting styles, where GC could be picking up on "Hey, I can do what I want at Gmom's".  Or are they asking you to discipline "their way" when GC is with you? 

I can very much see where if you aren't allowed to discipline or it has to be their way of discipline where it would be hard to have GC over.  I was a much stricter parent than my Mother was as a GP.  She was allowed to discipline her way when they were at her house and the kids knew they had rules but probably got away with more at GM's than at home.  I was the same way at my GM's.  But I knew if I didn't behave at GM's that my Mom would have got me later, and my kids were the same.

Just wondering because I could see where that would send huge mixed messages to a 4 year-old and cause them to go wild at GM's.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: RedRose on June 14, 2011, 06:53:40 AM
I also agree with cpr..I thought it was a very wise post and is exactly what I wanted to say.

It is good to get thoughts and suggestions..there will always be different ways to look at things.

I still feel that this is just a phase and he will grow out of it. I love my grandchild...good or bad.

Even though you say it has not affected your relationship with your son and dil, it could and does happen when parenting skills are questioned...all the time.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: pam1 on June 14, 2011, 09:07:29 AM
Quote from: gretchenw on June 14, 2011, 04:19:30 AM
Quote from: pam1 on June 13, 2011, 10:20:42 PM
Take what you want and leave the rest.

Sorry all.  I wanted to give Gmom a little support.  I imagined that she would be feeling really bad after reading the post prior to mine.  Sorry.  Didn't mean to offend all of you.

No need for apologies, all opinions are welcome.  I think this is a sensitive topic so it's more important to be careful how we phrase things rather than censoring what we say.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: pam1 on June 14, 2011, 09:13:25 AM
I've noticed kids seem to act out with those they feel the most comfortable with.  Personally I take it as a sign the kid likes me lol and just hope they grow out of it soon.

I know it may not be popular but I've found kids I'm not really fond of either, it's usually something to do with the parents though.  Like the let the kid run wild in restaurants...so I try not to hold it against the kid.  Recently I've noticed a bunch of sensitive kids around DDs age that drive me nuts, they cry over everything, cry when they fall down and no visible marks, cry when they don't get to go first....ick.  And it's a parenting issue as well, this type of parenting IMO creates little people with severe entitlement issues and an inability to just get over it.  They are a little old to be doing that kind of stuff. 

For me, I don't think it's awful to dislike a kid, I think it just means the responsibility is on you to handle your feelings in a manner that won't affect others.  I don't feel the need to announce when I think a kid is awful to my friends, so I think that would sort of apply in families too. 
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: justus on June 15, 2011, 07:28:34 AM
I wonder if your GS acts out more in your presence because he senses the discord between you and your DS. People know when we disapprove of their parenting, kids pick up on that stuff up, too, and they will exploit it if they can. This also makes me wonder if because of your disapproval, his Ps parent him differently when you are around in response to how they perceive your reactions to them, their DS and their parenting. Could be they go out of their way to show you that their parenting works and this just makes the situation worse.

In response to my parent's disapproval, I parented by committee, which was the worst parenting mistake I ever made. I wanted to please my Ps and all I ended up doing was pleasing no one. They had no problem voicing their disapproval to me and to my children. This undermined my confidence as a parent, and my children's respect for me as a parent. They both exploited the situation, especially DS and at age 26, it still has a negative impact on him. He was the one who truly paid the price.

I think it probably is best that you don't see your GS for his sake. In the mean time, try to look at yourself and be honest with yourself about if maybe your disapproval leaked through despite your best efforts and if maybe that might have contributed to the situation. Try hard in the future to hide your disapproval and your dislike. Your GS deserves better from you.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Pen on June 15, 2011, 07:51:10 AM
I've been thinking about this thread a lot. My parents were pretty strict, they rarely if ever spanked but they expected and got excellent behavior from us. I'm not sure how they did it, actually. Somehow, without a lot of lecturing or punishment, we got the message. They could stop any beginning shenanigans with "the look."

Alas, I wasn't able to produce the same results. However, my kids were always complimented on their good behavior when we were out in public. At home they had more freedom than I had had, for example they were allowed access to the pantry and fridge, they could enter my office, run up for a snuggle, etc. I feel my style was still effective on the big issues but more loving than my P's.

He's never said a word, but maybe my DF didn't approve of my style and saw my kids as out of control hooligans? Compared to me and my sib I guess they were.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: luise.volta on June 15, 2011, 08:32:01 AM
Ah, yes, "The Look". My mother could be sitting reading and she could look up over her glasses and we would freeze in our tracks. (Remember both my parents were born in the late 1800s.) When I replicated that, my kids (obviously with frayed patience from having to put up with me, ) said "Now, what's your problem?" LOL!

It's tricky. The years of "Children should be seen and not heard" are far behind us and yet for their safety little kids have to obey to some degree and for their safety older kids have to listen. Kids who aren't protected even from themselves and society at large feel unsafe when they deserve so much better than that. Making decision they aren't ready to make must be terrifying.

We didn't question authority. We had no TV, no computers, no iPods. We didn't know we could question authority. We read "Little Women" and "The Bobsy Twins" series, went to Girl Scouts and took piano lessons. As a family, we sat around the radio listening to "Amos and Andy" and didn't know it was politically incorrect. My mom read out loud to us..."We Took To The Woods" and "Kon Tiki." Then we went outside and played "Hide and Seek." I didn't grow up in the sticks. I lived in an upper middle-class suburb of Detroit. That's just the way it was.

And now that's the way it isn't.  It looks so much harder to me...the job of parenting. Mothers out working, kids in daycare, TVs teaching values and beliefs. So much more difficult. Outside influences so much more pressing. Everything offered by parents diluted by the media. My grandkids were proficient on computers before they started school...my great grandkids were raised on computer games...and now that they are in high school and college. Their kids will be bombarded with what? I have no idea. I just know that their boundaries and knowledge base will be extended even further.

It boggles the mind, challenges the emotions and threatens the hearts of those who want to nurture and protect but not stifle and limit. Sending love...
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Joanna on July 01, 2011, 07:12:14 AM
My mother did not want to be around my son. Heck, no one wanted to be around him except perhaps my sister. He was a handful to say the least! He was our first. He cried all the time, couldn't sooth or play by himself and was very clingy. By the time he went to nursery school the teacher told us to have him evaluated by a professional. He didn't play well with the other children, and was destructive.

By the time he was in second grade, and with the help of professionals, we found out he had special needs. Although very intelligent, he was socially immature. He seemed incapable of following simple instructions. I could go on but let me say he ended up being labeled things...ADHD, oppositional defiant disorder, separation anxiety. He did very well in a special education program for behavioral disorder students.

Some of the techniques we used were never acceptable to my parents. Give a child choices? Ha, that would be the day. I pray that your grandson is happy and healthy. If he does have special needs I hope they are temporary. The final diagnosis we received was Bipolar disorder for our son. He struggles with relationships, has never held down a job, and did not finish school although may have a genius level IQ.

To this day I occasionally get phone calls about his depression and how he wants to commit suicide. He's had a tough life, most of it his doing as he refused medication. Now that he is willing to try medication he is self employed with no health insurance.

I just wanted to share another view of different parenting techniques. We were happy when he was safe. If he swore at us, it was the least of our worries. By the way, his first son was born with a form of Autism.

Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: pam1 on July 03, 2011, 09:51:57 AM
Joanna, you bring up a lot of good points. 

Before I had DD I read a lot about parenting and I can't remember if this was something discussed but it's just something I did with her from a young age.  I'd ask her questions, "ready for bed?" and start getting her ready.  My grandfather would bellow "Pamelaaaaaaaa, the answer is going to be NO every time you ask!" 

Well now, his face was priceless when she would answer yes to bed lol.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: justanoldgrandma on July 03, 2011, 12:04:36 PM
Our 3 year old gs is so much enjoyment when it's just dh and me taking care of him by ourselves.   When he throws a tantrum or refuses to take his nap,  we can do a short time out or simply reiterate what we want and he complies, sometimes it takes a while!, but he complies...... we try the same techniques we used on our children who also weren't always easy to raise. 

Of course our son/dil ask what do you want to wear, are you ready for bed, do you want to take a nap, what do you want to eat, etc.  Like Pam1 said, when you always ask a child what they want, I mean always, not just given some choices, you are asking for a battle on your hands.  As Luise said, children need boundaries and our dil/son give fewer than we would like..... but my mother thought dh and I were too easy on our children, too!

DS did say once that gs is better behaved w dh and me, unsolicited!  He was having trouble getting gs to comply.  We don't give any advice bc they are as many young parents, "We know it all."  DH and I are out of touch and too old to know the "new ways" which we understand they feel that way so we know to zip up our opinions.  When gs is w his parents and us, he cries and throws more tantrums; bc he can..... so we just don't handle discipline when the parents are there bc gs will get more leaway w his parents and knows it.

I'm afraid that if the so-called "spoiling" continues, I, too, may find gs to get.... uh, obnoxious..... hope if so, it will be a passing phase!

i'm not saying dh and I could raise the child and he would turn out well; could very well be a disaster; times and methods have changed and we can't go back 30 years when it seemed there was less permissiveness.  I do like, however, that dil and ds do the time out and don't allow hitting and "much" bossiness from gs..... so of course he will turn out fine bc he is being loved.

yep, I have my opinions but I keep them to myself bc unlike OP, I'm sure if I wrote a letter (not saying it's wrong!) I'd see very little of gson!  I think this child-raising difference of opinion between grands and parents is as old as time; nothing new!  I surely remember my mother's saying, "When your father said to do something, you kids did it!"  Of course I bristled..... and so now I keep my opinions to myself.  And my mother really lost patience w our kids and her great grandkids bc they didn't mind as we did.

Not a new conflict by any means!
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: luise.volta on July 03, 2011, 12:17:27 PM
Good point. I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks!
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: justanoldgrandma on August 27, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
I don't know if this is going to be read as no one has posted for a while, but after being w 3 year old gs for several days at his parents' house, the concept of "inductive" or "gentle" reasoning is not working! GS had such a sweet nature and still can, but is totally spoiled by ILs (I like them very much but they tend to spoil all the children and young adults and they don't outgrow it!  Most are still living at their parents' homes ((as adults)) and/or helped out a lot financially; and still the boss....)   

I know many undisciplined children turn out great but some don't...... and asking gs, "Do you want this, do you want to go to bed, yes, you can have such and such to eat if you don't like what you have on your plate, tell us what you want/what is wrong bc we can't help you if you don't tell us (he doesn't;  he's just crying bc that way he gets his way!)   When children cry/throw tantrums,  we walk out of the room when parents are trying to talk to the child as though he is much older!  "Use your words" must be a now-used expression; when it's just a trantrum to get attention, there are no words!

As someone said, children are wise; they know parents hate to hear them cry or sulk and are great "negotiators."  GS became more difficult, progressively, to deal with (won't get in the car, shouts, just acts like a little dictator) bc he is a smart little fellow! 

When he is alone w dh and me, he knows he can't get by w much and is a delight (I'm not saying we are perfect w him  by any means; it just doesn't upset us when he cries for no reason bc we raised 2 children who did that!); at his parents' or when parents' or other gparents are around, he knows to whom to go to get his way, so we get more cold shoulder from him.....  he's never spanked which I don't disagree with, but the time outs are used less and less..... they were effective..... he is the boss!

Now..... a gd was born and he is much more difficult bc he is so attached to his mother and doesn't have her full attention; he wants only her most of the time and it just isn't possible.  DIl is pulling her hair out w frustration!   Now dil I am defending bc she is w gs all day and tells ds, "Child is driving me crazy!  Take him!" when he gets home from work.  DS is such a softie and hasn't realized that a firm hand is needed; he gets frustrated, also, w gs, but doesn't realize child is running the show.

The day care providers have reported his willfulness/lack of sharing but ds in particular is in denial...... when he mentioned gs's behavior to dh, dh tactfully tried to explain that child needs some more discipline.  After gs threw a few fits while I was there (we don't do much disciplining bc ds in particular doesn't want anything said so we back off), I broke my vow of silence and said that ds needed to use a firm hand w gs.  Told him of day care people's reports.

I know better than to give advice bc I didn't like my parents telling us we were too lenient!  (Each generation seems to be less strict although our kids were pampered much less than gs.)  DS was unhappy w ole Mom, of course, so later I apologized for the uncalled for advice and we hugged it out.  DH said he thinks ds was upset bc he knows my brief statement was right on.  DIL would agree that gs is unruly but is frustrated......

We realize that a baby in the family upsets a toddler and allowances have to be made; however, too much leniency has been granted, even before the new daughter was on her way.  GS is simply being spoiled and I will use duct tape on my mouth if necessary bc speaking my mind is just not kosher and my son is frustrated enough the way it is; my "words of wisdom" aren't welcome and it's up to the parents.....

I know dil and ds will work out ways to deal w the behavior; I am upset w myself for telling ds what I did (a brief statement but something I'd wanted to say for months.)  Irreparable damage has not been done and we are valued as helpers and babysitters and future visits and holidays are already being planned, thanks to dil!

I guess this is in solidarity w OP who said she can't tolerate 4 year old gs's behavior!  We still are eager to see the family and w more sleep than I had had my patience will be greater and I'll keep my mouth shut..... the parents will figure out what to do when frustrated enough!  (Trouble is, most of the playmates gs has are quite spoiled so there are few role models for the parents to use.  Thank God for the day care people bc they don't tolerate bad behavior!)

Just had to get this all out..... as I said, my parents were free as well as my dh's parents, to reprimand our children and also to make comments on their behavior.  There was no "negotiation" and children being the boss...... ah, well, perhaps the pendulum will go back the other way..... I do know teachers and restaurant workers, etc., recognize that many children are not given proper discipline.....

Till then this ole grannie will keep her mouth shut to preserve family unity..... sigh
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Doe on August 27, 2011, 03:40:02 PM
Hey -

I just found this thread and also realize it's an old one but wanted to contribute.  I'm not in this situation but can imagine having a GC that wasn't pleasant to be around, like other relatives who are children. 

I can also imagine laying some ground rules for the GC when he's around you.  Say to him: "Are you trying to be annoying because you're doing a good job." just matter of factly.  They need real feedback from the real world.

But I do feel that when a kid is being a pill, that he's suffering from lack of attention, lack of admiration.  Finding some good things to admire about him might work some magic on him.  That is, if you do decide to have him over again (which I think is your decision, no judgement from me).
Title: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: sesamejane on August 27, 2011, 07:10:58 PM
My sister has said she does not want to be around her gc because her dil and ds are very disorganized, not attentive. She does not want to see how the children are in the middle of the chaos. Hurts her too much. 

Children with special needs can be difficult, but if not to severe, behavior can be modified.  I wonder if they are seeking professional who is expert with behavior management? 

I think one-on-one, chldren can be managed better.  When a crowd develops, there are too many distractions, and a special needs child can lose focus.

Interesting posts.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: Pen on August 27, 2011, 10:07:03 PM
IMO all children, special needs or not, need to know that the grown ups are capable of taking care of them! If the grown ups are constantly deferring to the children it's very unsettling and possibly frightening. Maybe those kids have to act like tyrants to feel secure - like whistling in the dark?

If a preschool teacher is mentioning the behavior, it's probably worth following up on. They see a lot of kids and know what is normal acting out due to a new sib or other family issue and what may be a deeper problem. It is too bad that many GPs cannot mention these concerns to the parents. The older the child gets the more difficult it will be to turn things around.

I hope for the best for everyone, especially the children.
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: lancaster lady on August 28, 2011, 12:23:03 AM
My Gd is reaching those terrible 2's !
I think kids do need guidelines , of course they do .They learn by example , the way forward is teaching them what
is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour .Yes they're going to kick up ,but they get the message eventually .
It's the bits in between that can drive you crazy , and they will push you to the limits , also the way you
implement the rules is also a key factor .
Distractions and alternatives seem to work , rather than an a distinctive NO , explain why a certain thing is unacceptable.
Praise also will work when a good job is done , it's hard to be wrong 24/7.....awww give these little guys a chance
and they are wonderful !
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: justanoldgrandma on August 28, 2011, 07:32:11 AM
Oh, we all find plenty of good and wonderful things about gs; he gets plenty of "good job!" and attention and hugs, etc.  His parents and us have been working on the "thank yous" and "please" and when not upset, he realizes this is a lot better way of getting whatever than throwing a fit.  He's not a special needs child in any way; he can behave very well when he knows he is around disciplining people.  He catches on very fast to whom he can go to!  As someone said, it is hard for us to enforce good behavior when others (sometimes his parents when indulging him) are around; so it's best for us to let them handle any reprimands (unless they aren't around to handle things.......)

We love having gs in our home and seeing him in his home, esp. when there isn't a crowd.  One reason for my post was that no way will I jeopardize not seeing him and the rest of the family by giving advice bc the parents will come to it much sooner by themselves.

His behavior at day care isn't that unusual; he isn't destructive; his behavior isn't anything they haven't dealt with before.  The structured environment is very good for him.  I'm glad they can make comments on his day so that the parents can see his progress in dealing w the other children. 

He's the apple of our eyes (in addition to gd!) and didn't mean otherwise.  Love him to pieces.   Although we can set guidelines at times w other adults around, other times he knows if he objects loudly enough, some other adult will give in to him to avoid "upsetting" him. 

He is acting out more now than before bc of the gd getting attention...... the parents feel torn bc before, he was getting all the attention.  He still gets a lot of attention and love from everyone now; far from neglected.....

It'll work out; I just need to go into another room when he is being indulged and let the parents handle it; when he's in our care (dh and mine) our guidelines work fine.....

Short visits are easier but we love being w the family and want the gc to know us.  Just was venting there; have gotten some rest and perspective!

Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: lancaster lady on August 28, 2011, 07:35:59 AM
Got myself one of those big 'ole zips too ...mine has a padlock in place !!    :-X :-X :-X
Title: Re: Don't want to be around my 4 y/o grandson
Post by: justanoldgrandma on August 28, 2011, 12:37:31 PM
Good one, LL!  My tongue does get sore from biting back the advice!  I have to have some time in between visits to let it heal up!