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R, I wonder if this is coming up for you again at this time because DS is at the start of a new relationship, as he was with the older woman when you did what you regret.  Is it triggering you in some way?  Perhaps you are holding onto the guilt because you are afraid you might do something rash again and regret it?  It was a learning experience for you 7 years ago and you have grown from it.  You rightly apologized and DS let go of it.  DS is older and, hopefully, wiser too in his decisions.  I think it's wonderful that you have a good relationship with DS at this time. 

It seems the reasons for the choices your D is making cannot be explained away by just her immaturity.  It sounds like she is just continuing the actions she has done for a long time.  She may enjoy the conflict and the chaos.  (I've witnessed my family members thrive on conflict--they use it for manipulation and control.)  If D is oppositional, as you mentioned, then she is likely to do the opposite of what you would like.  She knows you well and knows how to push your buttons.  D may also be enjoying all the attention she is receiving from you, your son, and your husband.  And if you change your actions toward D, she may change her tactics to get your attention again.   

It might do you a lot of good to step back for at least a while so that you gain some perspective.  At this point, you may not be able to see the forest for the trees.  Do some reading regarding manipulating people, personality disorders, drug addiction, etc.  Consider what Luise and Bamboo2 have also said. 

I'm glad you feel you got some good direction.  You can always write your statements down in preparation to talking with your daughter, so you can keep on track.  Also, you don't need to explain your decisions, which could just give her points to argue with you.  You can always be a broken record if you are challenged, which means you repeat the same statement over again (and over again and over again, if necessary).  That lets you take a stand without being manipulated to say more than you want.  No need to feel defensive in your decisions and boundaries.  I hope it goes well for you.  It seems you are trying to handle this situation in a different way, instead of repeating what you were doing in the past without getting good results--good for you!

Just realized I missed some important stuff in my assessment of my holiday experience.  Because of my estrangement from DS/DIL/GC, I also missed family birthdays during this period.  And I weathered contact from DS, which was upsetting but went nowhere.  In hindsight, I see I was dealing with a lot more than just the holidays.  I think I was in a fog because I was grieving. 

Hope you have a wonderful visit, Luise.

I hope your appointment with the therapist is helpful.  Hang in there!

Now that the holidays are pretty much over (I'm grateful for that), I am wondering how everyone did with their strategies for getting through the holidays.  What worked, what didn't? 

For myself, actual Thanksgiving and Christmas were spent with gatherings of friends and acquaintances and it went very well.  It was the time in between that got to me; I think I was depressed because I had trouble concentrating and being productive--I was in slow-mo.  I feel much better this week, like a fresh start.  I don't know what I would do differently and just hope next holiday season I will be in better shape emotionally overall.       

I was just thinking what a kindness it is to be told the truth (by Luise) that I am "collateral damage" in my relationship with DS--painful to hear and hard to absorb, but important to come to terms with.  I recognized it myself, but got muddled in my thinking by the good intentions of a friend who is ever hopeful and not wanting me to be hurt.   She had encouraged me to "try again." 

It feels so good to stop banging my head against a brick wall.    

Since you feel so torn emotionally, is it possible to allow yourself a time out from your daughter so you can re-group emotionally, at least until you have had a chance to work with the therapist you plan to see?  In the meantime, focus on things you enjoy, like time spent with your son and husband.  Exercise is great for clearing your head and improving mood; it uses up nervous energy and stimulates endorphins. 

To keep on the right track, I regularly spend time reading on this website where I find support from ladies who understand.  I had to cut contact with my DS/DIL/GC because the relationship was damaging to me and I could do nothing to change them or the situation.  I love them from afar and pray for them.  None of my friends understands because they have not faced the same problems--which is okay because I can focus on other aspects of my life with them. 

Sorry to keep adding like this, but I think I was mincing words instead of being direct.  What I have read, and found true for myself, is that you don't really get clarity until you remove/disengage yourself from the toxic person, which usually means no contact (or very minimal contact, if absolutely necessary).  It takes time, but slowly you get a better perspective and a healthier mindset.  Your emotional and physical health are important! 

I think people who are now being diagnosed with personality disorders, were in the past just labeled as abusive, bullies, and toxic--i.e., people that you generally want to stay away from.  Adding alcohol/substance abuse to this situation makes it even more crazy-making. 

J,
You are going through a tough time, and my heart goes out to you.  It is hard to deal with an onslaught of high stress as you have been dealing with and it becomes overwhelming.  Hopefully, as you detach from your daughter for the time being, your mind and emotions will calm down a bit.  Be kind and gentle with yourself, you have gone through a lot.   

I just want to mention that if you suspect a personality disorder in your daughter, it may be difficult to find an appropriate therapist who understands the day-to-day issues.  I found that to be so.  I was dealing with probable borderline/narcissistic personality disorder (called Cluster B personality disorders) in a family member and found a lot of useful information online.  It gave me insight and tools to manage the situation, as well as questions to ask in screening a therapist who really understands personality disorders.

Here's giving you a virtual hug--  (((HUG)))



























































                 

Since my original post, there has been no communication between me and DS, which is okay.  In retrospect, I think I was vulnerable and stirred up emotionally because of the holidays (those pesky holidays) and the situation got to me.  The invitation I got from DS was at the last minute and I'm not sure why he even bothered, except that perhaps it took DS/DIL off the hook in case extended family asked about my absence.  That way, it was on me--they invited me, I declined, for whatever reason?  There was no serious attempt to resolve anything between us.   

If/when this comes up again in the future, I will follow Luise's suggestion and ask DS to tell me what he thinks the problem is and how to solve it. 

In the New Year I'm turning my focus on myself to work on some tough issues apart from DS/DIL.  I need to make some important changes in my life and that is scary. I wish I had more energy and enthusiasm to be up for the task (sigh).  I will try to incorporate more activities that bring me joy.     

Ladybreck,
You made the statement "He is turning into the girlfriend."  I can relate to this observation with my own son.  My son's wife seems to also be mentally ill, which comes out as controlling and manipulative behavior.  I have seen my son change, becoming more like her; I think it's an adaptation to fit into a very crazy environment as a result of living with a mentally ill person.  I found that trying to make a relationship work with them was turning me inside out.  The stress of dealing with them was hurting my emotional and physical health.  Once I cut off contact with them, I was able to think more clearly and became more calm.  The periods of grief are getting shorter, too.   

I love my son dearly, but he is making his own choices, even if that means living with a person who is quite toxic.  I hope one day he wakes up and realizes what's going on, but I can't put my life on hold waiting for that to happen. 

I hope you are able to find comfort as you gain more insight and wisdom on this website to help you during this difficult time.

As I have expressed, it doesn't look like I can expect any validation from DS, but I appreciate the validation here that my expectations are indeed reasonable.  I struggle with validation because my needs and feelings were largely disregarded by my FOO and in my marriage.  I'm working on figuring out what I want and need and if/how I can provide that for myself.  Dealing with DS/DIL seems like a real distraction in that regard.