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  Seeking advice from MIL & DIL's. Long story short... My husband's family refuses to speak to my husband and myself.  About a year ago I twrote MIL letter stating she no longer can use guilt trips as a form of manipulation.  She has never really accepted me as her son is the baby of the family and was always there to take care of her.  She moved away but still continues to use guilt trips on my husband. 
  It all started when we had our daughter baptised and we did not plan it around when she was available.  Therefore, she did not send anything to our daughter for her special day.  She has also done that ew/my son's bday.  Refused to send present because she is angry with us.  Husband did call oher on that and told her not to take it out on kids.  So she finally sent present.   Even when I did apoogize... nothing. SIL/BIL, MIL refuse to speak to me.  I would like to resolve but  how does one do that when everyone hates me???
HELP any  advice???

Welcome - Just some thoughts off the top of my head. I would back track. Can you talk to her directly? Emails do not work. We have all found out that they are misunderstood. There's no body language, eye contact or chance to exchange ideas. No one wants to be informed that they are manipulative. She probably sees herself in an entirely different light. It's a judgment, no matter how well you document it. And presents aren't everything...they're just a small part of interacting. She isn't going to change. Telling her she's not OK isn't a way to resolve issues. Talk with your guy about what he wants. Look to see what your boundaries are. There usually isn't a right person and a wrong one. You are just different and not very compatible.

I have tried to talk to her and she won't return my phone calls.  My husband has tried and she gets defensive and still won't acknowledge  that she has created thisf situation.  I just finallry voiced my concerns after she continued to use guilt trips with my kids.  Husband agrees with me but she won't speak to us.  Sad.

Welcome Wittsend :)

Please read the Forum Agreement if you haven't already done so.  We ask all members to do this not b/c there is anything wrong with your post.

It seems to me this is the type of situation where you have to be the change you want to see.  Meaning, guilt trips only work if you let them.  In this scenario with the gifts, it would seem to me that the easiest way is to not accept any gift at all from MIL.  This does 2 things, you are standing up and your entire family without having to chase after MIL to do the right thing *and* puts MIL on notice.

One of my grandfather has never sent me a gift.  When he remarried his wife would buy gifts at Xmas but not birthdays.  As a kid, I truly did not notice that he did not acknowledge my bday ever.  In fact, I didn't even know when his bday was until last year!  And we have an enjoyable relationship. I think kids don't really perceive those types of issues to be problems as long as it is fair between siblings.

It is sad. She probably does not see that she created this situation. She thinks you did.

I had this happen with someone and I decided to take all the blame to save the friendship. I asked for a meeting and told her that I was off-balance at the time and totally stopped defending my actions and my point of view. (She had accused me of stealing from her kitchen after telling to make myself at home. I ate an energy bar.) We had been friends for 25 years and I thought if I just took all the blame for reacting to her accusation, which I did, we could start over. She listened to my apology and never spoke to me again.

You can only cover your end. You could, and I would, apologize for the email that was critical. That doesn't mean it wasn't well-founded...it means you are sorry you asked her to be any different than she is.

That's just what comes up for me when I read your question.

Hello wittsend and welcome .....

I would just back off completely , you have tried your best to rectify things .
She was obviously very hurt by your letter , and perhaps hadn't realised what she had been doing
and refuses to accept that she was at fault .
We MIL , don't like to be told if we are in the wrong , and it takes a while before we can admit it.
Let the dust settle , if you are meant to be friends it will happen .
My kids never received anything from my DH FOO .....they didn't even know who they were .
It never bothered them , or me , as I had given up trying to be part of their family .

Welcome wittsend.  I totally understand where you are coming from.  I can not stand anyone that uses children to further their agendas.  To me, that type of person is the lowest of the low.  Children are little humans, not pawns.  I don't blame you one bit for standing up and saying that type of behavior doesn't fly.

Since you have tried to call and she is refusing to take the calls, then that's all you can do.  She's playing victim and until she decides she wants to rectify the situation, you have done all you can do for now.  I'm afraid if there is going to ever be any sort of relationship at this point, it will have to come from her end now.

I'm very glad you and DH are on the same page and he is backing you on this.  You let her know it wasn't ok, and now it's up to her to decide if she wants to abide by the boundaries.  Kudos to you for wanting to fix this even though she is being difficult.

 Thanks for the advice.  It is a sad situation and BIL told husband that no one wants to hear from me cause I am the instigator.  Doesn't make much sense why MIL/SIL can't speak for themselves.  I did not instigate things but for some reason everyone seems to think that it's all my fault and no one will speak to either myself or husband about it.  We would like to establish a relationship w/everyone again, but what does one do when no one will speak to you????   
  Does husband confront his brother and tell him to stay out of this and MIL/SIL need to speak for themselves???   Husband thinks it will just get worse but I cannot see how it possibly can.  Besides, I don't like to have anyone accuse me and not saying anything.  Yes, it is a mess and MIL/SIL/BIL are all a nightmare.  I feel bad for husband because no one will speak to him because of me.  He agrees w/me on all the issues we have w/them but he still has not told his brother to stay out of it and his wife is not to blame.  Any advice?? Good or bad I am at my wittsend.  I have never been in a position where people hate me so much.  My family talks about our problems and work them out.   This family not so much. Refuse to speak where the silent treatment is their form of manipulation.  Husband is used to it but not me.  I would like everyone to get to know my kids but what is one to do.  ?????

As a MIL who has been called manipulative by DIL I would like to offer a different perspective.

It is very difficult to know the best way to approach a situation when you have been called manipulative. If you try to offer an explanation it can be interpreted as another attempt to manipulate. All you want to do is justify yourself because no one sees themselves as manipulative but that is also impossible. That leaves you in a powerless position so you say nothing.

It can be very difficult to know what someone else sees as manipulative. Sometimes the very best intentions can be misinterpreted.

I have heard it said that we judge ourselves on our intentions and other people on their actions.

I think if judgement calls on other peoples intentions could be left out of it and just the actions and how they make you feel could be discussed you might be able to get somewhere.

Hi wittsend, I am pleased you're shared your issue here,.  Wow what a wealth of wisdom in these ladies, even if a topic isn't my issue I read their responses because it is also meat in the realm of relationships and trying to decipher human nature.   As I have written before,  wittsend,  I have a similar issue with MIL, i.e. there was a past 'confrontation' and she didn't speak to me for nearly four years.  I haven't shared this yet on the site but -----  this July 4th we had a large cook out at our house, and the last minute I suggested DH phone his parents and ask them to come  THEY SAID YES   ---and I nearly dropped dead I tell you.  This was the first response in almost 4 yrs, my FIL couldn't have been more loving and kind, he was all hugs and kisses.  My MIL was cold, but she was there.  No, we won't be having a warm relationship, but I learned a lot of life lessons from this.  Some bridges are burned behind us.  Confrontation is the LAST resort in a relationship.  My MIL opts for the pretend nothing ever happened approach to life.  I wish now I had respected her style and just learned to live my life w/o buying into the power plays, etc., that were going on.  We don't have to participate in everything.  Sometimes you can just be polite and distant.  The relief I got from the confrontation wasn't worth the 4 yrs of hell it brought into my life and the conflict with my DH, and also the termination of the relationship.  I'd advise you to accept that this rift may take a long while to heal, and don't try any more to talk it out, if you get the chance to be with your MIL again, just be very sweet and polite, she may prefer not to talk about it.  Those of us who want closure and wide open communication are considered threatening by those who loathe it.  My mother falls into the latter category and we've always been on the outs also because she wants to talk about the weather and recipes.  Sorry this has been rambling, I understand with GC are involved its harder to manage this.  I think we are much too confrontative as a whole in this society now.  And we are also too intolerant of waiting for timing and seasons to pass.  I fully agree with Luise that emails are notoriously misunderstood. 

Wittsend - you can't *make* people like you.

I bet you that your MIL was not INTENTIONALLY using guilt trips on your DH.  They were reasonable requests to her, not guilt trips.  And I bet no one had ever 'called' her on them before either.

The mistake you made was putting it in writing, in a format that she could bring it around and show everyone and get everyone's sympathy.  I'm sure she's getting more attention out of that than she would if she made up with you.  She's obviously getting something out of it.  I'm sure she LOVES the idea that you're upset about this, and will continue to make you grovel and beg her forgiveness.  She has no intention of forgiving you, because then she wouldn't get all of this attention.

Your best bet would be to move on and live a good life.  Invite the IL's to your celebrations, but don't beg, and don't make arrangements around them.  If they can't make it, oh well, too bad, maybe next time.  If they do come, be civil and gracious.  If they cause trouble, have a back up plan in place.

As for the presents, no one 'owes' you or your children presents, ever.  If they are not given generously and from the heart, then why push for them?  It will hurt the IL's more than it will hurt the children.  At our house, we talk about the gifts that have been given and who they came from.  My IL's are notoriously BAD at gift-giving and as such, we don't have too much evidence of their gifts, and thus the IL's don't get brought up as much.  Too bad, so sad.

If his family just ignores issues and you are the type of person to actually G-d forbid address them, they could easily see you as an instigator. As hard as it is, this is the way they do things in his family. I agree with the others; just leave it alone and hopefully with enough time you can resume communications.  If you get a chance you could tell them that you are sorry if you handled the situation in a way that created hard feelings, that you are sometimes outspoken and that it sometimes comes across in a way different than you intended. This may make you swallow some pride but sometimes I find that this smooths things over. I myself am a more upfront kind of person with most people and it sometimes hurts their feelings. The truth is that those I confront are the relationships that mean the most and that I want to improve. Otherwise, I would just let it go. As for the kids, they probably don't notice. It's you who feels the pain of the slight. I would just ignore it and thank her for the gifts she sends. She is giving you the silent treatment because she either is too angry to speak to you or to get to you. Either way, trying to keep contacting her now is a bad idea. It may feed her anger or her enjoyment of ignoring you. Afterall, it sounds like the true loser is her. She has lost her son and grandchildren with her behavior. Based on some of the things you have said, maybe the silent treatment from the family is the peace and quiet you need.

Hi Wittsend and welcome.  I feel your sadness and frustration.  Here you want a good relationship with your MIL, and for your children to have a healthy one with her.  You want DH to have better exchanges with her, too.  You were trying to improve it and everything backfires and gets worse.  When really, truly all you wanted to do was make it better.  What's a girl to do?

I think you've already been given so many good things to think about.  Here's my 2 cents and keep in mind I don't know a lot of detail.

How MIL can no longer use guilt trips as a form of manipulation comes from you and DH.  I am not sure how telling somone her guilt trips won't work is to your advantage.  It comes from you and DH to decide as much as anyone guilt trips are going to work.    It has nothing to do with MIL.  As a couple, you know what you're willing to give, do, accept, devote energy to (work, time alone, time with children)... for yourselves and your children, no matter what anyone else wants.  You and he decide together, if you want to pack up 2 little kids and travel and visit folks on your one or two or five of your 8 Days Off a month (meaning weekends, I don't know your actual schedule).  You decide if you want holiday mornings to yourselves and how many dinner invitations you say yes or no to in a given week.  Check with each other before comitting the other to a visit, or to hosting duties, or to cook a dinner for 12 instead of 6.  If someone wants you to do "more", you learn how to say no thank you.     That way, the manipulation did not work.  You've got her number by now.   You and DH change your reaction to manipulation; it's not effective to command someone else not to be manipulative.  That's why its called manipulation.

At the risk of being the Poster who writes the same thing every time, sometimes when I don't know what to do, I just follow Etiquette. I forget it sometimes with close family.  I guess because it gets way more casual and feels more personal.   The thing with the gifts did work as a manipulation because it did get her lots of attention. It was a message for you not the child.  If your baptized child was under 2, I think it's obvious the no-gift was meant as a message to you because a child that young doesn't know she didn't get a baptism gift from grandmother.  You do.  Setting good habits before they're old enough is good in concept, but in practice asking MIL to send very young DD a gift, well, asking for gifts is not good etiquette and it creates unnecessary drama and stress.   Let gifts go.  They're not yours to control, they're for someone else to give because they want to give it.  Demanding gifts cannot improve any situation. 

Later I saw that MIL still won't acknowledge that she has created this situation.   I am not surprised.  If MIL accepting blame to DH is key to moving forward, I think you'll be at a stand still for a while. 

Is your MIL the sweep it under the rug and move forward type?  Right now she's not speaking with you. Is it possible it is because she thinks you are waiting to have a "talk" with her?  Is she avoiding the talk and has to avoid you to do it? Can you and DH make stronger agreements as a couple, against people who want "more" than is good for you to give  - in the form of MIL or the hot little trixie who moves next door, or his boss.  Can you work things out with you and DH, and sweep it under the rug and move forward, without any confrontation? I don't think DH should confront BIL, SIL or MIL.

The sum of my 2 cents of random internet thoughts.  Let some time pass, let the drama drop, bail on confrontations, in a few months invite them to dinner for an event, individually or as a group, and accept their RSVP with etiquette. If they say no, try again in a few months after that.

I think, for me at least, that a lot of my issues could have been handled with masking tape. At first, it seemed to me that it needed to be used on others...but as I age, I doubt that's where it would have done the most good.

P.S. If you consider your troubles with MIL private, and don't want DH to discuss your private business with BIL or anyone else, let DH know.   When BIL brings it up, would DH be willing to not participate in the conversation, out of respect for your privacy, and say "Brother, let's talk about something else other than this." 

Luise - lol! masking tape and manners!

Quote from: luise.volta on July 14, 2011, 08:52:42 AM
I think, for me at least, that a lot of my issues could have been handled with masking tape. At first, it seemed to me that it needed to be used on others...but as I age, I doubt that's where it would have done the most good.

Luise, I learn so much from you!!!  My favorite auntie used to have a policy of never discussing anyone else.  Yes, I want to be more like that.  Tape over my mouth if need be.

P.S.  I would love to pass on a good cup of joe to someone anonymously.  But I have a problem.  I'm too cheap to buy a cup for me.  So you never find me at those food & beverage counters.  Maybe someone can think of something else I could pass on anonymously...

Quote from: Purple Room on July 13, 2011, 11:11:12 PM
As a MIL who has been called manipulative by DIL I would like to offer a different perspective.

It is very difficult to know the best way to approach a situation when you have been called manipulative. If you try to offer an explanation it can be interpreted as another attempt to manipulate. All you want to do is justify yourself because no one sees themselves as manipulative but that is also impossible. That leaves you in a powerless position so you say nothing.

It can be very difficult to know what someone else sees as manipulative. Sometimes the very best intentions can be misinterpreted.

I have heard it said that we judge ourselves on our intentions and other people on their actions.

I think if judgement calls on other peoples intentions could be left out of it and just the actions and how they make you feel could be discussed you might be able to get somewhere.

Welcome Purple Room :)

Please read the Forum Agreement if you haven't already done so.  We ask all new members to do so not b/c there is anything wrong with your post :)

Great perspective!

Luise, I could remember to use both of them more often with our little cousins.  I am watching them this weekend so thanks. The less I say when rounding them up, the less they have to yell No! to. 

Wittsend I also wanted to add that big picture, it is my thought that ultimately you might have to have a different kind of relationship with MIL than you orginally wanted and expected. Maybe even thought you had sometimes.  Different with SIL and BIL too.  Not as close and open as the family you're used to.  A little more formal, more reserved, and yes, sometimes having your guard up to think before reacting.  They may not get to know the core of the real you.  It's their loss.  You're a great person to know if they knew you better, but maybe they just want surface.

I don't think the choices have to be limited to open-honest-deep relationship or no relationship, where no one's speaking.  I think there's polite relationship.  You have them with other people already.   You can do cordial.  For work relationships to work at work (say that 10 times fast) you watch what you say to whom, (5 times fast) to get along.   When only 1 person in any relationship wants mainly a surface relationship, it seems that's the most that can happen.  Pushing past limits can cause angst.

I am quoting something someone else said not me.  Sometimes when you don't know what to do, the best thing to do is nothing.  I think that can be especially true when it's based mainly on someone else's problem.  (Unless someones being abused or in danger). 

Well, if it's not a cup of coffee...a smile and a kind thought for ourselves and then passed on to the person behind...known or unknown.  :)

::passes a cup of joe to o.b.s.::

 I do want to thank everyone for the advice on this matter.  Yes, I wish that it was easily resolved but I think that this is an issue that will last quite awhile.  Unfortunately, the last time MIL spoke or emailed myself or husband is when she was coming to visit (has other family around also) 2 days prior before she came.  We had not spoke to her in months then out of the blue she wanted to see us and the kids.  My husband told her that in order to have a relationship w/GK that she does need to have a relationship with us first.  We did decide to sit down and invite her to lunch to discuss some issues but it did not work out for her and she wanted to visit daughter instead.  At least we tried and since then she has not spoken to us or even tried to call or email to discuss how we can solve this problem.  My husband & I are more than willing to listen and resolve this and have her get to know her grandkids but she refuses to speak to us.  I am sure next time she visits she will do the same thing and expect us to drop everything so she can see her grandkids.  But that will not happen once again if she chooses to not call us or email us prior.  It is a shame and very sad at the same time.  But I realized that I can only try so much on my end and every time I send updates on my kids I still get no response from her.  Will she EVER realize that she is only hurting herself and missing out on getting to know grandkids????
  I know I can no longer use all my energy thinking about trying to solve it and husband says when mom is ready she will contact us.  Pretty sad when she just can't come to terms that my husband and I are a team and we do think of our kids first.  We just don't want them to be disappointed by grandma since her moods are up and down especially when things do not go her way.

Quote from: wittsend on July 12, 2011, 06:34:22 PM
  It all started when we had our daughter baptised and we did not plan it around when she was available. 

The way I see it...the baptism of a grandchild is an important occasion. You knew your MIL could not make it at that time. Why didn't you change the date? Her being upset about it would naturally be felt by her other children.
I am sure your mother would be upset if she could come at that time also.

Even though it is taking time, she will get over it..she wants to see her grandchildren.

Just my 2 cents.

correction...If your mother could NOT come at that time

sorry

Hi Wittsend,

I mean no offense, but maybe your mil is hurting just as much, if not more, than you & dh.  When I get hurt, I go off to lick my wounds.  Maybe she's been waiting for acknowledgement from you & ds that she got hurt?   Maybe asking to come & visit you, ds & gc 'was' her attempt at making things better?   Could it be that she felt shunned over the baptism & again when told that she couldn't see the gc till she made amends with you & ds? 

Wittsend, if I read the original post properly, you deliberately scheduled the baptism of a grandchild without determining if one of the grandmothers was available and then sent an email where you accused the grandmother who was excluded of using guilt trips to manipulate her son.

I can't think of any reason that she would want to see you again, and as for her grandchildren, I wouldn't dictate to her that she has to have a relationship with you and your husband first, she doesn't have to have a relationship with anyone on the planet.  As for her "moods", if anyone treated me the way she's been treated, I wouldn't be in any hurry to visit, why put yourself at risk for another piece of "humble pie" and manipulative accusations by someone else's daughter? 

What's done is done and frankly maybe she just doesn't like someone who is 20 years younger but is trying to make her behave according to her terms.

The only people you can break apart and put back together are made of Lego.

I suggest bake a beautiful pecan pie, drive over to her house, (no husband or kids, this is between the two of you) knock on the door and beg her forgiveness for your bold and brazen behaviour.  Ask her to share the pie with you because you made her eat humble pie earlier which she didn't order on any menu.   Ask her if the two of you can start over from that day forward, and in the future, stick to your knitting, let Dr. Phil deal with other people's behaviour in the future, and never send an email to anyone that is judgmental and hostile. 

Just a question I have for wittsend and I hope I word it in a way that does not create offense.

Do you want to resolve this issue for the good of all involved or do you want this issue resolved the way you have decided it should be resolved?

I ask this because you have asked "What to do" and you have received lots of support, great advice and different points of view to consider. IMO  it seems  that no matter what your MIL does you think it is wrong. Is there anything about her that you like? Does she have any good qualities? You married her son, he has good qualities -yes? He must have inherited them from somewhere.

Accusing someone of being manipulative is an overtly aggressive act. So far all the things you have said that she has done are open to interpretation as evidenced by the different opinions you have received.

Just my opinion. :)

Quote from: wittsend on July 14, 2011, 12:44:08 PM
I do want to thank everyone for the advice on this matter.  Yes, I wish that it was easily resolved but I think that this is an issue that will last quite awhile.  Unfortunately, the last time MIL spoke or emailed myself or husband is when she was coming to visit (has other family around also) 2 days prior before she came.  We had not spoke to her in months then out of the blue she wanted to see us and the kids.  My husband told her that in order to have a relationship w/GK that she does need to have a relationship with us first.  We did decide to sit down and invite her to lunch to discuss some issues but it did not work out for her and she wanted to visit daughter instead.  At least we tried and since then she has not spoken to us or even tried to call or email to discuss how we can solve this problem.  My husband & I are more than willing to listen and resolve this and have her get to know her grandkids but she refuses to speak to us.  I am sure next time she visits she will do the same thing and expect us to drop everything so she can see her grandkids.  But that will not happen once again if she chooses to not call us or email us prior.  It is a shame and very sad at the same time.  But I realized that I can only try so much on my end and every time I send updates on my kids I still get no response from her.  Will she EVER realize that she is only hurting herself and missing out on getting to know grandkids????
  I know I can no longer use all my energy thinking about trying to solve it and husband says when mom is ready she will contact us.  Pretty sad when she just can't come to terms that my husband and I are a team and we do think of our kids first.  We just don't want them to be disappointed by grandma since her moods are up and down especially when things do not go her way.

You want presents for your children from your MIL..yet you don't want her to visit and get to know your children. I would question if she DID send gifts if her grandchildren would even know they were from her. She is avoiding confrontation with you because she does not want to make matters worse. You and your husband have basically cut her off for not being able to change her plans in order to attend an important occasion in her grandchild's life...then you are upset because of no gifts from her.

She has done nothing wrong and if you want to resolve this you will need to see her side too.

Seems like she can say the same about you if things do not go your way...that you are manipulative.

I just hate it when grandchildren are kept away from grandparents as a punishment.

In my history , I was told , you must make it up with F/DIL before you can see your GC !
I had done nothing wrong . she took something written meant for my Dd for herself ! Not my problem ,
however ,it started a whole load of problems which I couldn't ignore .
Long story ...however after many discussions , I approached her after months of silence
in order to see my GD .
It depends what you want out of your relationship and how far you are willing to fix it .
I think your MIL doesn't want to discuss it , but to go on as normal .she was willing to come and visit but not
to dissect the problem .
We settled our problems by  email , going over each others dilemmas, but if one won't discuss anything ....
stalemate !

I honestly believe that if a child or S/Dil told me that I had to have a relationship with them before I would be permitted to have a relationship with GC I would be beyond furious.   It would be a cold day in *&!* before I would forgive the offender, but I would eventually of course if sincere apology were made.  Children deserve a grandparent and it is very unkind to deprive them of it under any circumstances at all if the GP is a good and kind person.  Please rethink this and offer a sincere apology.  Life is too short for trouble that can be avoided and what joys are forfeited over things that can be avoided.  spoken to you dear one, with humility because I was a hellcat when I was younger and had to learn much in the school of hard knocks.  blessings & peace.

  I would like to clarify that I did apologize to my MIL for not giving her more of a notice when we were going to have our daughter baptised.  We planned it around her godparents schedule no one else's.  But my MIL told my husband that she does not think I was sincere about my apology and she does not have anything nice to say to me ever.  This was not the first time MIL has pulled this stunt.  She has purposly ignored my bday every year even though my husband reminds her.  Prior to our huge fight she has never called me to find out what are schedules are when she visits if we are able to come up w/some times so everyone can get together.  Basically it is what works for her and not us.  Don't get me wrong I know I have a long road ahead of myself with my MIL but she has also needs to take responsibility for her own actions in the way she has treated not only myself but her son as well.  She was used to him always dropping everything everytime she needed him and once we got married and had children his priorities had changed from her to his family.  She is a very nacarasstic person and will usually play the victim on any scenerio.  I take responsibility for my own actions by calling her out on her behavior but something had to change because I did not want her to be the type of grandma that only does things w/our kids when she is in a good mood.  My husband 100% agrees that something needed to change in the way she treats me.  In which she has never really liked me since we started dating and that was over 10yrs ago.
  Yes, I would like to resolve this family feud but how many times can one person say they are sorry and try to move forward when the other parties involved won't budge????  It takes all sides to come up w/a solution and so far the other side does not wantt to deal with it.???

Quote from: Keys Girl on July 14, 2011, 07:15:05 PM
Wittsend, if I read the original post properly, you deliberately scheduled the baptism of a grandchild without determining if one of the grandmothers was available and then sent an email where you accused the grandmother who was excluded of using guilt trips to manipulate her son.

I can't think of any reason that she would want to see you again, and as for her grandchildren, I wouldn't dictate to her that she has to have a relationship with you and your husband first, she doesn't have to have a relationship with anyone on the planet.  As for her "moods", if anyone treated me the way she's been treated, I wouldn't be in any hurry to visit, why put yourself at risk for another piece of "humble pie" and manipulative accusations by someone else's daughter? 

What's done is done and frankly maybe she just doesn't like someone who is 20 years younger but is trying to make her behave according to her terms.

The only people you can break apart and put back together are made of Lego.

I suggest bake a beautiful pecan pie, drive over to her house, (no husband or kids, this is between the two of you) knock on the door and beg her forgiveness for your bold and brazen behaviour.  Ask her to share the pie with you because you made her eat humble pie earlier which she didn't order on any menu.   Ask her if the two of you can start over from that day forward, and in the future, stick to your knitting, let Dr. Phil deal with other people's behaviour in the future, and never send an email to anyone that is judgmental and hostile.

Beautiful post, Keys Girl.  When I get myself in trouble, I hope you are around to help me mend it.  I also hope that I am wise enough at that time to take your advice.

Just some thoughts: Many times when we want to resolve an issue, it involves someone else changing. What are the odds? When we have people in our lives that we didn't pick on purpose, like we did our friends, it can go downhill from there. There can be expectations on both sides and old dynamics that some may want to hang on to that others may want to escape from.

Marriage can force instant relationships. They can be wonderful, I have experienced that, but again, what are the odds? To me the loyalty always lies in the new relationship, the new family unit...and whatever the new "rules" are. When a person feels left behind, all kinds of antics can surface from their trying to reestablish control or the illusion of control. To attain visibility, the antics can accelerate.

We can't do much about the process of someone who is fighting adjustment and wants the status quo when it is history. Taking them on creates war, giving in to them...creates havoc. It does us no good to document how wrong they are and how right we are. Seeking agreement just keeps us stuck. That's often what we're doing in the guise of seeking resolution.

My take is that we need to vent, be heard, accept the unacceptable and distance ourselves from others pathology. What we have right in front of us is tough enough and deserves our full attention.

Sometimes one way to help around what seems like an impasse, is to see the other's point of view.  Really try to put ourselves in their shoes.

I can see different points of view.  I love this website, all the insight is amazing.  I really know you want resolution, that's why you're here.  I also think you think you're doing the right thing by your children.  I don't question your motives and intentions.  And I understand you feel extra unjustly accused because MIL and BIL, SIL are questioning your motives and intentions.  As if you were trying to hurt MIL, when you're trying to make it better.

If MIL's motives were to see your family more, to attend the baptism, to get more time with you, to not feel used for gifts, and her motives are being called into question as "manipulative" when she knows what her own motives are,  would she react the way she is acting now.   Would it feel like an insult to you, if relatives wrote you a letter telling you that you cannot lie to them anymore?  MIL questions your motives, you question hers.  What if you both wanted the same thing, but each questioning the other wanted it too, was what gets in the way.

Do you think it's possible MIL may have felt that she wasn't wanted to be a part of the child's baptism, except for her gifts? I understand that you were standing up for DD.   But do you see how it could also look like that all that was wanted of MIL, was her gift? Is it possible that MIL wasn't trying to be manipulative by not sending a gift, as much as she was stepping back from the whole event, as she thought it was pretty much wanted for her to do? 

Can you see any other reasons MIL might have passed on the lunch?  There's a difference between inviting someone to lunch, and inviting them to lunch to "discuss issues."  I would accept a lunch invitation.  Seriously, I would have so much anxiety about accepting the second, fearing a showdown, a confrontation, a listing of my perceived faults, I don't know if I would accept it.  I don't think my accepting it or not would be predicated on how much I loved the people, but on how much agita I suffered at the thought of it til i said no.

Asking you two days before coming to down might have been another way not to get too much anxiety.  Not weeks of can they - can't they - we'll let you know - wait and see.  Just plan the trip anyway, go places she's welcomes, and at the last minute see if son and DIL can fit you in to see the grandchildren as a bonus.  Much less anxiety that way.

Big talks, emails, they can get so contentious.  There are other ways for you and DH to handle your issues with her (boundaries, not responding, being formally polite) one at a time, as each comes up.  You can't change her - you can change how you react to her.  That is what you will learn to change.  I still propose that you decide to suspend judgment of MIL's motivations and move "as if" the motives are the same as yours.  To spend time together when in each other's town, especially with the children.  If MIL wants to play hello broom meet rug, and all you will ultimately have with MIL anyway is a surface yet cordial polite relationship with her, and you and DH will change your reaction to her "manipulations", then why not just move on without further confrontation? Your husband can spend time with his whole family, your children get their grandmother, and you get an occational polite cordial guest.

I began posting my earlier reply and although I got the pink Warning, I did not go up enough and did not see Witt's latest reply before I posted mine.

I am suggesting this reframing, as a way of handling it, that doesn't require MIL to change.  MIL doesn't want to celebrate birthdays with you, don't celebrate them with her. If DH and MIL want to exchange calls, cards or presents that's between them and ask DH to leave you out of it so it doesn't remind you or rub it in your face.  You and she don't celebrate birthdays anymore.  Its not that close of a relationship.

Maybe there's no way to see it that doesn't hurt.  I understand that too.  The older I get the less birthday cards I get.  And they're nice, but I realize they don't matter.  I'm certainly not "entitled" to it, it's all treat.  I can get along with people, even if they don't send me birthday wishes.  I suggest reframing it, with the idea to help get you the bigger picture that I think you want.   

I think this is a prime example of why most of us agree that emails are not good.  When Keys read your OP, she saw it written that you deliberately scheduled the baptism without checking with the GPs.  I read it as you did schedule it without checking with MIL first, yet I didn't see it as a deliberate act of exclusion. 

It is so hard to find times to do things where everyone is available.  I used to do the same thing.  Reschedule and replan to try to fit things in where everyone could come.  I ended up with tons of stress trying to do it and it benifited everyone but my household.  After several years of this, I finally learned to pick a day that worked for our schedule and then invite everyone saying "Hope you can make it."  If they couldn't, well they just couldn't and that was ok.  I would have loved if everyone could make it, but very rarely did that happen because they had lives too.

Now, after your reply, I can see where she would be hurt that it was scheduled when she couldn't come and I also see where you were trying to accomodate the godparents.  You also apologized later to her for not being able to give her more notice.  I really don't know what else you can do about that if she is not willing to accept the apology.

Oh, I'm right there with you Pooh.  The planning, scheduling and then rescheduling is a nightmare.  Sometimes a new marriage is an adjustment for all parties, sometimes Mom's are so used to being *the* Mom. 

wittsend, IMO I would back away for a little while and let DH handle it.  Reading your updates and going back over your postings, it struck me your DH doesn't seem to be very involved.  I think it's a mistake for the new spouse to be the bad guy (meaning, setting the rules lol.)  In our therapy, DH has been told many times that his family is his responsiblity.  Ok, we have different issues, make no mistake.  However, the therapists belief is that I'm offending MIL by being myself and living how I normally do, she is also upset at the changes our marriage meant in her life.  As an example, she doesn't get every holiday, so it comes across as that she is mad at me.  In reality, it is her son she has problems with. She doesn't understand, takes it personal and attacks or "punishes" me.  They believe DH handling his side of the family issues cuts out the middle man (me) and puts the issues squarely on the shoulders of the responsible parties.

Pam that is a great post and I agree a very good way to go. 

OP, by any chance, are you a middle child or ACoA?  I ask because I see some good qualities in you like serving diplomacy, mediating.

This was posted here from Sassy but I wanted to duplicate what she wrote and put it with another thread under Grab Bag, "Jim", and in the process I lost it here. I really made a mess of it, Sassy. Sorry.

She wrote: I also often recall your words, Luise, about people aren't perfect.   Relationships aren't perfect.  Everyone is flawed.  Everyone makes mistakes.   I just saw the most amazing little movie on Sundance "Mary and Max" about friendship lasting despite each friends not being perfect and I thought of you.  The idea of accepting that it's unrealistic to expect a perfect performance from imperfect people.   There will be bumps on the way.  Thank you for guidance on how not to get stuck on the bumps.

I think it is reasonable to expect a GP to have a relationship with the parents if the GP expects to have be able to see the children. I my case, I didn't push this, but should have. My Ps said and did things with my kids they should not have, like talking badly about me to them, and undermined my parenting. My Ps did not respect me and this was telling in how they were with my children. If I had to do it again, those issues would have been worked out with me before I trusted them with my children.

So, yeah, it is more than reasonable to make sure that this GM respects and honors the parents, because if she doesn't, chances are she won't respect their parenting choices and that is rather important, more important than the GP's relationship with the child.

My children are adults now, and neither of them are talking to their GPs anymore. DS suffered the worst because of what my Ps did and had a relationship with them the longest and is now the angriest with them.

As GPs, it is easy to loose sight of the fact that the most important relationship in a child's life is with his Ps, not us, we are just the icing on the cake. It is one of our most important jobs to support and respect our GC's Parents, because the Ps are of utmost importance to our GCs quality of life. This is even more important than being right.

I agree, Justus.  IMO, parents do need the discernment and ability to protect who is around their children. 

When I first met my MIL I wondered if her poor treatment of me would be directed at DD.  Then I'd go back and second guess myself, thinking there is no way she can be mean to a child.  I should have stuck with my instincts and I regret it. 

If your MIL is a manipulative narcissist(as you describe) it will do you no good to confront her and make demands of her. She wont change because she cant change. The only thing you and DH can do is learn healthy, self respecting ways of dealing with her.

Also I sense your sadness and frustration with the whole situation.

My heart goes out to you.

I sense that MIL will always have a problem with this son and DIL. I feel that witsend wants to control her husband and his family and because she hasn't gotten this yet she has labeled her MIL a manipulative narcissist.

MIL would be wise to concentrate on her other children where she feels respected and loved.

I believe MIL knows this.

It is often repeated here that you had a life before children and grandchilren..go enjoy it again.

I think Keys Girl is right and if wittsend wants a relationship with her MIL and her husbands family she should seriously consider doing what Keys Girl posted.

Wittsend, since you've stated that MIL is a narcissist who has pulled guilt-trip, manipulative stunts all along, you must have had some idea going in that MIL and her family would not take your email well. I'm sorry your apologies and phone calls have not brought the results you say you'd hoped for. I wish there was a "flashy thingy" like in that old movie Men In Black so we could erase people's memories after we've said or done something that riles them up. Since there isn't, Keys Girl's pecan pie is probably the next best thing! Make sure MIL has no allergies to nuts or gluten, or isn't diabetic though...or you'll be on the hot seat again.

I too support the suggestion from Keyes Girl.  I make the assumption that despite whatever personality flaws your mother in law might have, she was deeply hurt to be excluded from the Christening.  After all, if it weren't for her and her spouse, as well as your parents, and you and your spouse, there were be no child to be christened.  I have done a great deal of complicated scheduling as a corporate secretary and there is usually a way to make sure the most crucial attendees of meetings (or Christenings) attend something.  Assuming therefore the person is coming from a place of hurt in this specific situation, not narcissism, think of ways you can make up for hurt.

Right now, I am dealing with a child's big birthday party being celebrated considerably off the date of the actual birthday due to "scheduling" issues, and the new date being quite impossible for the child's Godmother and sister of the child's Mother to attend as she is considerably out of the area and due date of pregnancy in vicinity of this pushed ahead party.  I can tell you that she ....the unable to attend sister/Godmother, interprets this as her sibling not genuinely wanting her at the party and feels hurt. 

From the top of my head: I notice whenever a group of us where I live (in a senior community) want to do something together...that very seldom do we all have free time at the same time. We have to settle for a time the majority can show up and those left out as no less important. It's just often a logistic nightmare.

Quote from: wittsend on July 15, 2011, 07:34:36 AM
  I would like to clarify that I did apologize to my MIL for not giving her more of a notice when we were going to have our daughter baptised.  We planned it around her godparents schedule no one else's.  But my MIL told my husband that she does not think I was sincere about my apology and she does not have anything nice to say to me ever. 

At first I also thought MIL was hurt because she had been left out but this shows something else IMO. That is not a nice way to respond to an apology. Talk to the person about the apology if you are concerned but dont talk about the person to her husband. That is a very undermining thing to do IMO

There is a very good book "Enough About You Lets Talk About Me" by Dr Les Carter with some really great strategies and advise. Worth a look if you can get your hands on a copy. Talks about self examination and how to set healthy respectful boundaries in this type of interaction.

In that sentence wittsend also says MIL felt her apology was not sincere.

Sometimes trying to solve a problem will go nowhere when you try to use confrontation. Everybody has different personalities.

I would also go to my son with DIL law problems and I asked him to tell her that if she had any problems with me to go to him first. It was the best way for me.

In fact, after they divorced, it is still this way.

Actually, I don't support Key's pecan pie kaper, because of one thing, the MIL plays the victim and it is working for her very well with SIL and BIL. If Witty has this conversation with her alone, who knows how MIL would twist it. I have first hand experience with this sort of behavior with my own M and other people and I learned the hard way to always, always have a witness. You walk away feeling good about the conversation thinking things are resolved, and then you get a call from someone who confronts you on how you treated the person horribly.

I don't know that any conversation about this is necessary at all. Another poster talked about boundaries and how those boundaries don't need to be spoken to exist and I think this is the way to go. Witty's DH has told his M what he needs from her in order to go forward, the ball is in her court, so now it is a waiting game. In the mean time, agree on what the boundaries are and how you are going to enforce them.

BTW, I think it is a horrible GM who would punish a child for the child's parent's behavior. I don't blame Witty and her DH for calling MIL on this. It is a behavior that should be nipped in the bud. This is the issue, not that Witty thought she was entitled to gifts. It is the MIL that is making a gift giving occasion into a passive/aggressive dig, not Witty feeling entitled to gifts. The kids are too young to understand this now, but it won't be long before this horrible behavior does start impacting them.

Also, people seem to think Witty intentionally excluded her MIL. I don't know much about the Godparent thing and baptisms, but it seems to me that the most important people attending are the child, the parents and the Godparents. These are the people whose schedules you do check with. Witty knows now she should have put some effort into also checking with MIL, but it seems to me that if the baptism were really that important to the MIL, she could have put a little effort into changing her own schedule so she could be there. Unless it was some sort of medical procedure, or something important for her job, or a performance I can't imagine what would be more important. MIL showed where her priorities were.

Many posters seem to think they know the MIL's point of view.  (She is wrong, playing victim, punishing her GC, etc).  I will say that I have no idea what MIL thinks, because she is not represented here.  IMO, I have only heard Whitend's side of the story.  I hear her say that she admits to her mistakes, but that MIL is at fault, and that her DH is 100% in agreement with her.  It is for that reason I think Whitend is not going to solve it. 

My F/DIL asked for me to go straight to her , and not through my DS , which I now do ....especially as she now lives
with me .... ;D

LL: That sounds better to me. When they were both telling you privately about things that weren't going well between them, that looked like a red flag from here.

Good points, Justus.

I grew up in a large Irish Catholic family.  Baptisms and communion were super important but like anything else, not everyone could make them.  I noticed wittsend's MIL lives far away, I think it would be abnormal to approach her about attendance and actually, quite rude for that reason.

IMO, the whole family appears to be ganging up on wittsend.  They shouldn't be siding with MIL, why do they even know these problems?  B/c MIL told them, told them her version and on top of it, they give the silent treatment. 

I feel for you wittsend, not a pleasant situation.  IMO, it would concern me more that they are not shy to bring the children into it *now*...what is going to happen down the road?  Will the children be the "instigator" one day and given the silent treatment? 

From what has been written here, I certainly perceive the MIL as the victim.  Anyone who is the target or other family members who are trying to manipulate her in any way shape or form is on the defensive, and that your adult son and his spouse put you there is dreadful.  Cruelty comes in many forms and as Shakespeare wrote "How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child".

Her DIL and her son are in agreement that they should work together to make her act in a manner that they feel meets their needs and it's been going on for 10 years.  It's interesting that the MIL's son doesn't seem to mind that his wife should call the shots on how his mother lives her life.  Who is living their lives while they plot on how she lives hers?

It sounds as if Witsend was never liked by the MIL and perhaps others in the family from the time they married.  It happens.  Just because you marry someone doesn't entitle you to demand or expect that the family will accept, like and otherwise cherish you.  When I was younger the Protestants couldn't marry Catholics and those that went against the grain incurred the wrath of both clans for decades with cruelty that was learned in the Middle Ages.

So 10 years later, the soup isn't any better.  If you are at your wit's end because you haven't been able to oblige a family member to treat you according to your expectations then I suggest you lower your expectations for family harmony to 0 and increase your "hope" factor to 100.  No expectations means no resentments forming and hope can open the door to a better set of circumstances for everyone whether it's next week or 5 years from now.

How much energy have you spent in the last 10 years that was devoted to this negative environment? How much more will you spend in the next 10 years?  I can't help but think that you are at your wit's end because the tactics that you have used in the past haven't given you the desired results and you are hoping someone will suggest a new one that might work.  It's like someone looking for a faster machine gun because the old one doesn't work.

I read recently that it can be the case that the husband is passive aggressive and uses an aggressive wife as a way of working out his childhood resentments without being blamed for it.  I think it's very likely that my son is doing that and perhaps your husband too.  Not a great way to treat his wife, or his mother.  This generation of young men and women is really the first generation to marry as children of mostly divorced parents and I believe that a lot of the hostilities that are expressed probably come from some deep wounds that really need the help of a well trained professional to sort out.  Have you given any thought to getting some marriage counselling? You might lose a scapegoat, but gain a much happier marriage, husband and outlook on life.

So, Witsend, if you continue down the path you've been on, you are probably looking at another decade of strife, hostility and frustration.  Ten years from now what will your children have learned from your example to them?

You've pointed the finger a lot at your MIl and called her some pretty malicious names without any specific professional evidence, just your own  judgment. 

I was taught that when you are pointing the finger at others, you always have at least 3 fingers pointing back at yourself. 

I am also Catholic and I have quite a big family. I have 2 relatives that are nuns..1 a priest. Sacraments are very important to a Catholic family usually. I would definitely try to make sure all godparents, grandparents, brothers and sisters...close family and close friends could celebrate these occasions. They would be hurt if they couldn't come and so would I.

I didn't always get along with my DIL and this is why when there was a problem I went to my son instead of her. He preferred it that way too. Like I said before I do not like confrontation..and my son does not either.  To each his own.

Again...I agree with Keys Girl.

Great post Keys.

There is a dynamic called triangulation. It is when three people are involved in an issue between two people. The "He said, she said" pattern is part of it. No one can really speak for another or work something out for that person.

When someone says..."_____is unhappy with you." Answer that you are willing to discuss it only with ____ and not with anyone else. Refuse to listen or to talk further. Change the subject or leave. There are tons of games, misunderstandings, manipulations, tale tellings and hurt feelings that can be circumvented this way, once everyone knows you mean it and that's it.

Yep, that's it Luise.

From what I've read, wittsend is more concerned for her children than herself in this situation.  IMHO, most parents would feel the same.  None of us can avoid unintentionally hurting another or being hurt by others unintentionally ourselves.  The true test of a persons character comes out then, her MIL chose to punish a child for her own hurt feelings.  She also chose to triangulate and drag other family members in to shun the OP and husband and children.  All over an unintentional incident.

We are all responsible for our own behavior and cannot change anyone elses.  I didn't think the OP was looking for ways to punish her MIL or change her personally but rather, like most of us here, looking for feedback and another perspective.  I doubt most people come here (a site intended for MILs and DILs) to validate or find out more ways to manipulate another person.  There are many sites dedicated to MIL bashing, wittsend chose here.  I think that says a lot, IMO.

I've just re-read Witt's posts and have come to the conclusion that both sides have erred, and both sides have used the children as pawns.

IMO, that behavior should stop.

Dear Wittsend, you can only change yourself. Unfortunately, as many here have said, you cannot change your MIL or anyone else. I urge you to look deep into your soul, your heart, your deepest self and be honest about your feelings and desires where your MIL and your DH's FOO are concerned.

Be kind - you've got it all; they've just got fond memories.

I don't believe  triangulation has anything to do with this. I had to google to read up on and I still don't quite understand it completely. It's just another label that doesn't apply to my situation either. My DIL was (is) controling and I chose not deal with her...her husband needed to...not me.
A lot of times he would calm the situation...

I think witsend did get a lot of advice here and given other perspectives on how to deal with it....just because I don't agree with her doesn't mean I think she was MIL bashing.

It's hard to give gifts when the parents don't include you in important days in their and their childrens lives. Am I only considered a good person if I give gifts when my company is not considered important?

Keys, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I see mistakes on both sides and Witty the only one admitting her mistakes and trying to make it right. I also don't see her as trying to control how the MIL lives her life, only expecting that she be treated with respect and consideration unlike what has happened in the past. This I don't think is unreasonable. My own M treated my DH horribly. I adore him and intend to be with him for the rest of my life. I won't tolerate anyone, not even my M treating him badly. This is one of many reasons I cut her off. If you treat your child's spouse badly, there will be consequences. Knowing this, MIL choses her own fate.

Red, you are triangulating, but that isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes if you cannot avoid dealing with a toxic person, letting another person who is already involved be the point man is not a bad thing. You are not using your son to create make yourself right, you are simply doing the best you can in a bad situation to keep the peace. However, in this case the MIL has brought in two people who had nothing to do with the situation who heard only her side of the story then refused to hear the other side, and made judgements against Witty. MIL is essentially using SIL and BIL as her bullies against Witty and her DH. If SIL and BIL had refused to become involved, I would bet that MIL would be more willing to settle things more quickly. Instead, she has made it into an us against them thing, and even if she and Witty are able to move past things, she has poisoned any relationship that Witty might have been able to create with SIL and BIL.

I learned not to do this with my M early on in my first M. I would have a fight with my then H, and I would run crying to Mommy. Mommy would get mad for me, and tell me I was right. Then, xH and I would talk, I would find out I had overreacted or there was more to the story or maybe I was in the right and he would apologize. We would work it out and be happy as clams, however, M would still be mad and would stay mad for a long time. She never liked him from the beginning, and over time her opinion of him got worse and worse because of how he was "abusing" me. I stopped doing it when I realized what was happening, but the damage was done.

The question about the gifts, is why are you giving them? Are you giving them to acknowledge a child on his or her special day or are you giving them so you can get praise and warm fuzzies? I don't know if this GM is a good person or not, but punishing a child for her P's behavior is an awful thing to do. The child has nothing to do with it. Express your hurt to the Ps, punish them all you want, but leave the child out of it.

Wittsends question was What to do

Well wittsend - First what not to do.
If you want your MIL to like you don't forget to include her in significant family celebrations.
Don't tell her how to react if you do forget.
Don't tell her she must send gifts.
If you want her to hear your request to be treated nicely don't use words like manipulative, guilt etc to make your point.
Don't excuse your own mistakes while pointing out all her mistakes.

Now what to do.
Write MIL an email apologising for hurting her.
Don't use it as a way to excuse or explain your point of view.
Tell her you love her son.
Tell her you want her to be involved in your lives.
Ask her for her input into how you can work out a way that it can work for everyone's benefit.
Wait for her response.

While waiting learn-
How to negotiate in a respectful polite way.
Some things are your responsibility.
Some things are her responsibility.
Don't confuse the two.

Great Post, Purple Room.

I agree, great post Purple Room.

Justus...MIL was absent at the baptism, her own children knew about it...they were not dragged into the situation, they know why their own mother could not make it and formed their own opinions. Their mother did not tell them how to feel...they know both sides, believe me. Don't you think they would miss their own mother at this occasion and know why? Maybe they feel, as a lot if us have expressed here, that the date should have been changed...and this simple act would have solved the whole problem.

 I apprepricate everyone's feedback on this subject.  Good or bad.  I would really like to resolve this at some point some day but don't think it is possible at this point.  Here's something else that has happened this year.  Close relative died and MIL knew this person as well; did not offer any condolenseces whats so ever.  Wrote up our annual Christmas letter and MIL called son and cursed him out for not mentioning her in our Christmas letter.  Did not have anything good to say about the letter like how nice it was or glad the kids are doing good etc... Just upset that she was not mentioned in it.  Here's another.  I have in the past sent her updates on the kids, pictures and thanked her for the bday gift for child.  NOTHING in response from her.  Not even your welcome or glad the kids are doing good etc....  I guess my point is I am exhausted from trying and I get no response from her.  At one point she told my husband that she would never have anything nice to say about me or to me.  Then behold her story changed when she came back to visit and told my husband she was no longer mad at me.  Case in point she told him that because that is what hubby wanted to hear.  She only told him that cause she wanted to see the kids.  It did not work out; we had tried to come up with a day to get together that was free for us but she refused to come that day and it did not work out.  See  my point being..... it's either her way or no way.   No one should have to put up with a MIL who is selfish, relies on everything to go her way.  Yes, she is great at playing the victim because everyone has always catered to her when things don't go her way.  No more.  She is not ruining my family due to her selfish ways.

You will not change her, but, you can change the way you react to her.

Your solution is to cut her off...which will never create peace and harmony. You are punishing her her by keeping you, your husband and children away from her. You you want her to change and do  everything your way. You say she has punished your children by not giving gifts to them when you are cutting her off from seeing them. You are punishing your children by stopping them from seeing their grandmother. What do you expect her to do?

She probably feels that you are selfish and you are the one that is tearing the family apart.
I can go on...I hate when grandparents are cut off from having a relationship with their own grandchildren...except in a case of abuse...

Wittsend,

I am glad you apologized for the e-mail.  I am glad you tried to keep in contact with her and tried to include her in your family's life. I am sorry you have to go through this at all. It sounds like you took responsibility for your part through an apology for the e-mail. I spent many a years tearing my hair out trying to plan around everyone else's schedules. What I have learned is this: plan something on a date that works for your family. If people are upset they weren't asked about the date, no matter who they are, it is their problem. It is their responsibility to graciously accept, possibly rearrange their plans, or graciously decline, and be happy that the event is taking place at all. If MIL is that upset, she could certainly have cancelled her other arrangements. You did the right thing by sticking to that date. Do not be upset with her for not sending gifts. That is immaterial, no matter whether she was there or not. Some people don't buy gifts for anything. It might be easier for you to at least pretend she is that sort of person. Your children won't be concerned with what gifts she got them, they'll only be concerned with whether she was, or wasn't in their lives. At this point, that outcome is up to her.

Welcome Silver Spring and please take a moment to read the Forum agreement.  We ask all new members to do so, just so they know the flow around here.

Wittsend, bottom line is it takes two to work on a relationship.  It doesn't matter if that's DW and DH, or M and DD, or MIL and DIL.  If both parties aren't willing to compromise and work through issues, then all you can do is what's right for you and the people who do care about your relationship.  Maybe giving MIL some space right now will help her decide if she wants to work on it to.

Welcome, Silver Spring! Glad to have you here.

We all, MILs & DILs, need to look at ourselves very honestly when we are in these situations. What is our ultimate goal? Do we have an agenda? If so, are we interpreting the behavior by others as hurtful to validate our agendas?

IOW, perhaps Wittsend's MIL has never desired a relationship with Wittsend or any DIL. She is picking up on any perceived slight and taking it to the extreme to justify her feelings towards DIL. Is she being troublesome just to get the necessary reaction from Wittsend? Only she knows.

Or, perhaps Wittsend never wanted to interact civilly w/MIL, so she is consciously or unconsciously doing things to push MIL's buttons and get the reaction that will justify Wittsend's own behavior. Again, only Wittsend knows what is truly in her own heart.

I'm not saying this is true in Wittsend's case, but I honestly don't think my DIL had any intention of happily joining our family. My gut feeling is that she hoped he'd see how fabulous her FOO was and what losers we were, and he'd soon leave his FOO in the dust so she'd never have to deal with us again. I think many DIL's get married with this same secret agenda of "cut him from the herd." Not once have I ever heard it voiced as true by any DIL, but actions speak louder than words. I also think there are many MILs who are determined to dislike any woman who comes close to their DSs. They may act welcoming at first but it's impossible to keep up the charade forever. I don't know how they think they'll win out over true love/infatuation, but sadly I guess a few do. 

Thanks for that feedback Keys Girl and Red Rose.

Quote from: wittsend on July 12, 2011, 06:34:22 PM
  Seeking advice from MIL & DIL's.I would like to resolve but  how does one do that when everyone hates me???
HELP any  advice???

Quote from: wittsend on July 19, 2011, 09:04:47 AM
I apprepricate everyone's feedback on this subject.  Good or bad.  I would really like to resolve this at some point some day but don't think it is possible at this point......     She is not ruining my family due to her selfish ways.

Wittsend is right it is not possible for her to resolve at this point.

No, she won't resolve it because, Mil feels she is right, DIL  feels she is right and DH agrees with his DW..according to wittsend.

Both sides, all 3 involved to have to give alittle...even if MIL JUST talks to her son...because she doesn't want to talk about it to her DIL obviously...it's a start.

Maybe this just needs time... 

I have a feeling resolution was never really desired. I think Wittsend wants to be liked again by the extended family & wants justice to be served, but doesn't necessarily want to fix things with MIL. And I agree with those who feel that MIL doesn't seem to want resolution either. JMHO.

Hello wittsend.

I wonder if you are passive-aggressive. In the sense that you knew your MIL would not be available on the day of the Baptism and yet you went ahead with it anyways, then cried foul when your MIL got mad about it.

How would you feel when/if your own child grows up and doesn't think to make time for your involvement in their life during special occasions? Think about it. It's called empathy.

Saying sorry after the fact doesn't mean much if you already knew that your MIL wanted to be involved, but was excluded by no choice of her own.

It sounds like you've hurt her feelings to the core by your conduct. If you really want her involved in your childs life, then respectfully apologize to her, woman to woman. Not over the internet. You owe her that much. She doesn't owe you anything, nor should you expect anything either, that is, if you are truly sorry.

It's getting mean in here. Wittsend never said she didn't know her MIL wouldn't be available that day.

I've seen Wittsend's intentions get picked apart when she said she apologized and has kept in her MIL in the loop with photos of the kids and regular e-mails. Her posts were quoted and condensed yesterday and dismissed as she didn't want to work anything out. She also said that she called her MIL several times, but her MIL refuses to answer the phone. How can you work something out with someone that does not want to respond?

Now we're labeling her? How can we possibly deduce that her MIL is a victim/not a victim or that Wittsend is passive aggressive/not passive aggressive?

Wittsend has been extremely accepting of fairly harsh criticism. Does she deserve what we're giving her when she has said she apologized and is trying to make things work? It is okay to never give up, while simultaneously not holding out much hope that things will work out. I think that's conservative, realistic expectations, and not getting your hopes up. Aren't many people on here are very tentative in their relationships with their in-laws...they are putting their best effort forward without this hope that things will be hunky dory.

@ Silver Spring

She's been labeling her MIL from the start.

I wasn't defending her labeling either.

I've only perused this site for about a week, and it seems many women have used these terms: narcissistic, passive-aggressive, bi-polar, manipulative, controlling, and a plethora of others to describe that in-law that happens to be the bane of their existence. If it acceptable for them to say it, why not Wittsend?

Where is the empathy that people would like Wittsend to have for MIL? Can we try showing it to her? Can we ourselves get past one baptism? There are so many holidays/special days/regular days down the road that are worth spending with a loved one, that to drag this out over a baptism seems silly, no matter how important it is in religious circles.  I am a devout Catholic, and I am an ex-nun, I was asked to be a godparent to one child, and their parents could not plan around my schedule, so they picked other godparents. A missed baptism is not worth pain and anguish of a family in tatters.

You say you're a devout Catholic and and ex-Nun, yet you say that the MIL shouldn't be too upset about not being able to attend their GC Baptism (through no fault of her own)? That doesn't make any sense. I'd figure you'd have loads of empathy for the MIL, especially about something like this.

And the passive-aggressive remark I made was a question to wittsend, and something I was just wondering about. My post was not directed to you, yet you seem to have taken up for her. Are you a friend of hers or someone close to her? Nontheless, you seem very defensive of her for some reason.

Please don't question my religious background. I believe it violates the Forum Agreement.

Something I've never understood...why does it have to be an either/or? I can not be an ex-nun, because religion doesn't seem important enough to me somehow. Baptisms certainly are important. Families, love, and togetherness are more so.

No...never met her in my life.

Defensive of wittsend? Of course. I see that she's been treated unfairly after only a handful of posts and she's been cordial with everyone. I'd be defensive of you if someone was labeling you after your three posts as well. Sorry, I go for the underdog. I don't know your story, anymore than you know wittsends...so the labeling seems premature. People don't normally fess up to being passive aggressive, and most people take offense to it? It is a highly charged term that is thrown around, and is often baseless.

I think this is a support forum, yes? Where people come to vent/let it out/talk things through and then feel better when they leave. Let me know if I'm incorrect.

I have been looking at this site for longer than a week and have found so much empathy shown by most of the women towards other women trying their best to solve the problems in their lives. Everyone seems to offer what they can in the hope of helping. I have personally gained the most help by reading the various different perspectives given. I have learned so much and it has really helped. That is all that is happening with the advise given here IMHO. People offering what they see in the hope that it helps. No one wants to see any relationship in difficulties IMO

Precisely, Purple Room. The posts on this board are different than the ones on other boards for some reason. I can't put my finger on it. Wittsend did not even receive the benefit of the doubt. Oh well, I'm off to other boards.  :)

Silver Spring,

If you read from post #1..you would have seen many posts that sympatised with wittsend. This is a forum for MIL'S and DIL's and anyone that wants to post. Wittsend was given many different opinions on how we felt about her situation.

She welcomed every one of those posts. She was given opinions on how to solve it from a MIL's point of view, a DIL's point of view and just from a woman's point of view. This is what this forum is all about.

We have a very wise saying here..."Take what you want and leave the rest."

Well, I was leaving, but as I've been addressed, I guess I'm back.

RedRose, I wasn't referring to all posters. There is a perception that Wittsend has written off her MIL, and I can't believe that someone would do that but then go post on a site where she will here from both MILs and DILs (but it appears mostly MILs).  She's got guts to come in here, be honest about her story and receive feedback. I think that  means she has not written off her MIL at all. Sincere attempts to apologize and messages/photos/information about the kids is showing empathy. I was only pointing out that this perception might not be accurate. I'm sorry if the method in which I chose to do it was offensive. I wasn't trying to escalate this.

I defended her, and pointed out that maybe labeling her as passive aggressive isn't appropriate (maybe making this thread a little too personal), and this is the feedback I get?

I know how to agree to disagree. I was accused of having a relationship with the OP that I don't have and then my faith was called into question.

There was labeling in this post, I know. I saw it too. I just wanted to point out that when people believe strongly about something you are bound to get a lot of opinions and perspectives. I am a MIL and a DIL, as are a lot of us here ...and, I am a grandmother.

Welcome to our forum Silver Spring.

Wittsend......from a MIL point of view . ..if you deliberately planned the baptism because you actually knew your MIL could not attend then I would find it very hard to forgive you.Perhaps a payback for years of personal abuse from her. If this is.the case ,there are faults on. both sides . If you truly want to resolve  this you will have to bear your soul,no holes barred .Tell her how you feel about her treatment of you over the years and how you would like to start again.......if you are sincere hopefully she will want to make.things right again...However if it was a genuine mistake on your behalf ,.you will.have to try and.convince her of this .......wishing the best for you both ...........re labelling.......very difficult to label anyone from a few posts on a forum , I think a job for professionals perhaps ..........only my opinion of  course .

First, welcome TheChoiceIsYours to the forum.  Please take a moment to read the Forum Agreement so that you will know the rules of this forum.

Second, Silver Spring made some really good points in her post.  This forum is about support and also about getting different perspectives in a healthy, mutual respect environment.  I think she was very valid in pointing out that Wittsend deserves the benefit of doubt just as her MIL does.  Some here saw where the MIL was being left out, some here saw where Wittsend was doing her best, and some saw both.  Offering a different perspective does not equal attacking or belittling a poster.  Let's keep that in mind.

Third, TheChoiceIsYours, we can talk about religion here as a generic basis, as in Silver Spring saying as a devout Catholic she understands how import a baptism is, but we do not question anyone's religious choice or how they choose to practice it.  We also ask questions respectfully of each other and do not result to sarcasm to get our points across.  I hope you will have a better understanding how we operate here after reading the agreement. 

I think we all need to be reminded, when we read and reply to a post, we are replying to what the OP wrote, not how we feel about our own MIL/DIL. 

Wittsend, thank you for taking the support, the different perspectives and all the advice and appreciating it.  I think that speaks volumes for your character and also makes me believe that you are truly sincere in your wish to make your relationship better.  Hang in there.

Silver Spring, you made a lot of good points, I hope that you don't go.  All perspectives are welcome :)

Secondly, I believe Wittsend has stated this at least twice in this thread.  She did not deliberately choose a date for the baptism that she knew MIL to be unavailable. 

Wow, did some of you even take the time to read what ALL was said by the two of us, before jumping to conclusions?  ??? :o 

And yes, I agree, please don't go Silver Spring :'( You stay, I'll gladly go. Have fun  ::)

No one needs to go. What is needed sometimes is to step back a bit...move to another thread...interact on a different subject...read without posting for a while. There are a lot of ways to "go." Sending love...

I wasn't leaving, just moving onto read other things on this board. I wasn't going anywhere.  :)

Wonderful! Thanks for clearing that up...

TheChoiceIsYours, you made a lot of good points also..your perspectives are just as welcome as everyone elses. I hope you stay.

I read every word the two of you had to say. I basically said the same as you did about the situation and I haven't changed my mind. The advice you gave to wittsend and about labels is the same as my advice.



Welcome to our site TheChoiceIsYours

Quote from: TheChoiceIsYours on July 21, 2011, 08:20:36 AM
Wow, did some of you even take the time to read what ALL was said by the two of us, before jumping to conclusions?  ??? :o 

And yes, I agree, please don't go Silver Spring :'( You stay, I'll gladly go. Have fun  ::)

Yes, I read every word.  Your perspectives had value, just as everyone's does. 

I guess I have missed something here.  I have went back and read the whole thing again.  I agree that we get ourselves in trouble when we label someone, but I can't find where wittsend labled her MIL anything?  What am I missing?

By the way, that is a sincere request. Lol.  I'm trying to figure out what I missed.

I didn't catch it at first, but I think "guilt as a form of manipulation," and saying her MIL was a narcisstic person who plays victim is what might be considered labeling that posters may have an issue with. I think that is very common when someone is venting or dealing with someone's behavior on a regular basis to say things like this, and in reading here, it seems quite commonplace. For all we know, it could be true, even clinically.

As for guilt as a form of manipulation, there is only one way to handle that: don't feel guilty!  :)

Quote from: Silver Spring on July 21, 2011, 10:41:28 AM
As for guilt as a form of manipulation, there is only one way to handle that: don't feel guilty!  :)

Good answer! 

Thanks for clearing that one up for me.  I get what was being said now.  Guess I am guilty of that.  I call my DIL selfish, self-serving and princess.  She's earned quite a few labels from me.   ;D

Thanks RedRose, and like you, I haven't changed my mind either. I just felt that perhaps a little reverse-psychology was in order when I made my first response to wittsend -- as a way of showing how labeling someone (i.e. a MIL) can hurt ;) And that's also why I spoke of having empathy.

Also, when wittsend said: "She has purposly ignored my Bday every year even though my husband reminds her." It came across to me as a bit self-centered IMO. Why care if your MIL ignores your Bdays? You had birthdays long before your MIL was in the picture, right? Surely you have friends and other family members to help celebrate your Bday with you, as well as your DH. If I were you wittsend, I wouldn't let something like that bother me in the least. It's a waste of time, and life's just too short for that.

Here's what I feel when I read this thread through. We can put in our 2 cents on a subject and then we need to read on and not put it in again, elaborate on it or drive it home. We don't need to reiterate or take sides. There is no right/wrong...just our experience and our commitment to advance. To get the feel of WWU, it helps to create a thread and tell your own story when you're ready. And it also helps to let it all digest...to hold back on visibility and get your sea legs. Those who have been here a long time, those who get the most and offer the most, do that. This is not IMHO, this is my Website.

I came to this site to get advice from MIL/DIL point of views. I apprepricate the advice good/bad.  I will clarify a few things.... We did not
ntentionally plan baptism where she was unavailable.  Again, it was planned around her godparents-whch one of them unable to make it. No hard feelings people  schedules are busy never the less she still sent a gift.  Point being MIL does things intentionally.   Another point it was my son's bday recently-MIL ignored it. No present/card/call/email.  Even though she had Easter gifts delivered special that Sat before Easter.  What am I missing???? 

Quote from: wittsend on July 26, 2011, 07:09:03 PM
   ....    What am I missing????

http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html

What you are missing, from my point of view, is getting that she is how she is and she will do what she does. You can't change any of it no matter how carefully you examine it. It is about her, not you or the others involved. Agonizing over her actions and trying to find logic is an exercise in futility and will keep you from living your life. Mulling it over...convincing yourself and others that you are right and she is wrong...judging her or trying to understand her...gets you nowhere. And it will ultimately damage you. There are other facets in your life of interest and other people to focus on. There is life beyond this particular failed relationship.

Comforting words, Luise. Thanks.

Wittsend, that's the hardest lesson I had to learn about my DIL and OS (and still learning).  They are who they are.  It doesn't matter how I raised him, he is an adult and making his own decisions.  She is who she is.  Not a person that I can respect, but she is an adult and making her own decisions.  I had to learn to let go of the person I thought my Son was, and the vision I had of when he married, that I would be accepted by his wife.  My door will always be open if they choose to walk through it, but I'm not carrying them over the threshold any longer.

She is who she is.  You can't change her.  You can only change how you react to her.

The hard thing for me is I see the totality of who my son is and was. I can still see the "inner child" , and that little boy activates the "mom" in me only to then get slammed by the adult DS, who says "back off". And believe me he plays that I think they all do. our DIL's only know today's man, we know who he was every step along the way, may-be that's why so many of them feel threatened by us. and why we feel like we've living life on a roller coaster.  :o

I think it's still there but maybe they are trying (unsuccessfully) to move beyond that vulnerability. They move from the protection and influence of a female they could trust...out into never-never land and one that many of them can't trust because she is another child/adult trying to move beyond vulnerability.

Amflautist thank you very much for the TED link. It made a lot of sense to me. I shared it with others.

Brene Brown also has a marvelout "how to" book out that I am currently reading: "The Gifts of Imperfection" Around at $8.00 at Amazon. Sending love...

I'm still waiting to hear the review by you, after you finish it.  ;D

 ;D ;D ;D I am not going to review i !  ;D ;D ;D

It's just too good for anyone to take the short route. My daughter read it easily in an evening. I was a bit slower but when I came to the end, I started over. I will probably read a chapter (short) before I go to sleep every night for the rest of my life. It is changing what I thought I couldn't change and explaining what I couldn't understand.

Sending love...

Ordering it now..............

I'm on chapter 4.  I admit that when I saw the video, I thought that I might be one of the wholesome people.  But after reading a couple of chapters in the book, I now know that underneath it all, I must really hate myself, because I am always medicating with food.  So I am on a journey to figure out why I can't extend to myself the same compassion and understanding I can extend to my family.  I want to know what makes me eat and get fat.

I'm with you, AF! I feel my emotions acutely...both the ups and downs...and numb myself with food to limit them. (Then I am toxic from sugar and feel worse.) We're on a learning curve here that feels like a cliff! And I also going to do the program Pooh is on for weight. Sending love...

Yeah, I've heard the expression, it's not what you're eating, it's what's eating you.

Another thing I read recently, that I've been repeating to myself, to remind myself NOT to do it is:

"I think I'm going to go talk to some food about this."

That really struck me as so TRUE for me.

That is fabulous! Thank you!

AF, I'm in the same boat - I actually went back to therapy to figure out why I self-medicate (and punish myself) with food.  It really helped, and I was able to start losing weight.

Scoop, I love that.  Haha, if only I could stop at "talking" to the food, and not actually consume it.  It's like the "meet the meat" scene in "The Restaurant At The End Of The Universe."  :)

I like the expression ''Live to Eat '' or ''Eat to Live ''.
No diet required at the moment , just an 18 month old to look after .
The weight is falling off !