WiseWomenUnite.com

Margaret - I have to vote with all the others - - - big mistake to ask the other kids to advocate for you.  That puts them in the middle, forces them to choose sides -  - something we all strive to avoid doing to our kids, although usually it is in the context of not wanting to put a DS in the middle between us and a DIL. 

Let me float a thought - - - how do you know that they (at least some of them) are NOT standing up for you to him???  They just might be.  Just not reporting back to you about it. 

You said that two daughters asked to see the FB message and/or letter, and were appalled.  You said:    "Both daughters were speechless at the venom expressed and the nature of the accusations he made against me. One daughter burst into tears and said, "He's just saying what Dad always says about you! Dad's telling him those things. I have never read anything more terrible and untrue in my life!"

I would wager that these two daughters have in fact further discussed little brother's behavior  between themselves, and have probably gone to bat for you with him.  Probably unsuccessfully, since he is, I believe you said, and 18 year old - still in high school.  There's not much getting through the thick skull of an 18 year old boy - but I imagine they have said to him something like - - "Hey, Tom, cut Mom some slack.  She did her very best, and you're not being fair to her."

Now, being an 18 year old boy with, of course he doesn't get it.  He might not for another 10 years or more - but that doesn't mean that they didn't TRY.  They just wouldn't have mentioned it to you - especially since they didn't succeed in getting him to be fair.

Think about it - your friend who did speak up to immature son for you - she didn't mention it to you.  Didn't come boasting to you about how noble she had been.  She only talked to a third party, who was the one who told you about it. 

Your daughters may very well have stood up to your son for you - they're just not bragging about it because they want it all to go away, and being in the middle is not comfortable for anyone.   

Anyway - it was just a thought - so why not assume the other kids HAVE stood up to immature son for you - they just aren't discussing it with you.  Just working on him and hoping he will grow up some day. 

For all I know, our son HAS stood up to his wife on my husband's and my behalf (other thread) - he just doesn't tell us he has - because it would open a can of worms. 

Go to the wedding, enjoy it, and assume everyone else there knows what sort of person your Ex really is, further assume that all your children except the youngest bone-headed one very much support you and stand up for you.  I think it is not realistic to expect them to make a production of it in your presence, or to brag to you later about how noble they were.  Perhaps they are quiet diplomats.   

Best wishes.

Quote from: constantmargaret on July 06, 2012, 03:38:14 PM
My guess is that it's ok with your DS because so far it's working. He sees it, he keeps his big yap shut, you don't complain and wife doesn't punish him, which she would if he dared to call her out on it.

I find it cowardly. Or completely clueless. Perhaps lazy. Passive aggressive? Not knowing your son I can't say. Only guessing. And I'm not projecting my feelings about my kids who don't speak up for me onto your son who won't speak up for you. Ok. Yes I am. 

Who knows. If you can't or won't ask him, you have to accept not knowing why. The end result is the same as if you knew. He does nothing while his wife is rude to his parents. I guess all you can do about it is control what you do in response.

BTW, I understand your pain and I would be disappointed in my son too.

Thanks Margaret - I appreciate the understanding.   I just don't know what we can say or do without potentially causing problems between the two of them.  And while I can't claim to be fond of her, I do not want to be a source of any friction in their marriage.   So we don't know what to do besides just put up and shut up.  Frustrating.  But it helps to express that frustration and have the support of you and the others on this thread.   Thanks

Quote from: pam1 on July 06, 2012, 03:26:25 PM

Quote from: Monroe on July 06, 2012, 02:07:20 PM

Quote from: pam1 on July 06, 2012, 01:57:11 PM
Monroe, I think posters are only trying to help you with their experiences.  Remember, "take what you need and leave the rest."

Pam - I agree posters are helping me with their experiences.  Who said differently? 
I responded to good questions they were asking - so I don't get your issue.

My impression is that your responses are on the inflammatory side and defensive - like the one you replied to me above. 

Pam - you are misreading and misinterpreting my comments.

Quote from: foofoo on July 06, 2012, 03:02:26 PM
My question to you is what is he going to do about it?

You see, I have the opposite problem.  My inlaws treat me horribly.  Actually, after six years of marriage and three children, my mil has yet to speak to me (not even hello), she just glares and looks away, pretending I don't exist.   It used to upset me that Dh did not do anything about it, but then I realized, what is he going to do?  Yell at his mother? What is that going accomplish?  It is just going to make the situation worse.  So, he keeps trying to get me go over to visit and I refuse cause she is just going to be rude to me anyone.  Why subject myself to that?

If we look at your situation, your DIL is rude to you.  Not straight up abusive, but just rude.  Say he calls her on it and says, why did you ignore my mother?  She then gets defensive and is then angry at him as well as you.  How has that improved the situation?  If anything it will just make it worse.

Foofoo - you hit the nail on the head.  I think we have mirror image problems.  You are correct, my DIL is not abusive.  Sorry your MIL is.  DIL is more passive about it. 
When DH and I have had discussions over the years about whether or not to talk things over with DS, we always come full circle to:
"What is our desired outcome?"
To put our son in the middle?    no
To get a pound of flesh by criticizing DIL to DS?   no
To get DIL to change?   no.   Not possible to get the OTHER person to change.
To get DIL to be my BFF?  Heaven forbid, no. 

When we looked at it closely, there seems to be no reasonable desired outcome that could possibly result from having a heart to heart with DS. 

I do get frustrated, wondering why DS puts up with her indifference towards his quite wonderful family - wondering how he could love such a cold fish.  But he does. 

And you are quite right.  What is he going to do?  Yell at her?   Tell her she HAS to be friendly to us? (who wants that!)  All it would do would be to cause problems between the two of them - which is not the goal. 

And while it hurts that we have to put up with her frostiness, she IS the one he loves.  That makes it my job to just put up and shut up. 

And while you can keep the peace by simply avoiding your in-laws - so can we!

And I do avoid her - not hard since they live in another city.  What is hard is losing my son. 

Quote from: pam1 on July 06, 2012, 01:57:11 PM
Monroe, I think posters are only trying to help you with their experiences.  Remember, "take what you need and leave the rest."

Pam - I agree posters are helping me with their experiences.  Who said differently? 
I responded to good questions they were asking - so I don't get your issue.

Luise, the WHY does matter to me.  Understanding the WHY makes acceptance easier.  And I obviously have no choice but to accept the situation.

Quote from: Keys Girl on July 05, 2012, 11:40:02 PM

Yes, it is the elephant in the room and as I see it you don't have too many choices except to tolerate the elephant, leave the room or be shown the door.  It's a very painful set of circumstances and it's difficult to deal with the legitimate hurt at being treated badly and not having your son stop it.

I would add as much positive influence from other (new) people in your life to counterbalance the hurt, be they friends or surrogate grandchildren, etc..  Keep adding on the positives in your life to diminish the negatives and perhaps someday you'll decide what if anything you want to do about DIL and DS.

KG

Keys - I will NOT be SHOWN the door - therefore I have chosen to leave the room on many occasions when I can no longer tolerate the elephant.  Thank you for acknowledging the legitimate hurt of being treated shabbily and son failing to acknowledge or do anything about it.  I know conventional wisdom is  "let it go / don't have expectations / don't worry about why / don't say anything / they're adults, it's between them."  I get it.  But it helps to have someone acknowledge the legitimate hurt. 

I do add positive influences in my life. (If we were in the same town, I'd buy you lunch tomorrow!  )   But it still hurts that my relationship with DS has devolved into a stilted, robotic relationship, what with that darn elephant in the room. 

Lilly - thanks for your thoughts.  They live in a different city, so there really are not opportunities to have him visit without her. 

Quote from: Doe on July 06, 2012, 07:04:17 AM
Hi Monroe-
You say he seems to be fine with the situation - have you asked him?  Maybe he's just trying to make the best of a bad situation?

You mentioned  that you are not hurt by DIL's behavior, because you quit expecting anything from her in the way of warmth or caring.    If you are acting like it's all ok, then you might be sending a confusing message to DS.

My son compartmentalizes, too. 

Doe - I have not asked him.  Nor has DH.   How can we ask him without sounding critical of DIL? 

I wouldn't say we are acting like everything is like "The Waltons"  (old TV show) - if DS were astute, he could notice a slight chill whenever DIL is around, and HE could ask US about the elephant. 

I would love to ask DS, but fear it would backfire on me, and that no matter how hard I tried, it would come out as being critical of DIL.  If it were TOTALLY DS's behavior that was the issue, we could bring it up with him.  Since this is disappointing behavior on DS's part (in the aftermath of DIL's poor behavior), we can't address his behavior without examining hers.  Therein lies the rub. 

Quote from: lancaster lady on July 06, 2012, 10:47:41 AM
Hi Monroe ....

Is your DS aware that her treatment of you offends ?
Have you told him ?
Unless he is aware of this , how can he defend you ?
If he is aware of it , then shame on him ! He obviously isn't bothered whether you two get along or not .
Are you bothered ? Have you tried to work out your problems between you ?. . . . . .
A chat with your DS is called for I think , tell him how you feel .
Good luck .

Lancaster - DS should be aware.  He is not a stupid man. 
No, we have not told him.  Nor have we told him that tomorrow is Saturday or that there is a Presidential election this year.  Some things are obvious to anyone who does not live in a cave. 
I am not bothered by DIL.  I am bothered that DH and  I don't matter. 
Would love to have that chat with him.  But he is a grown man, not a 5th grader, and he is too old to have his mother tell him how he should behave. 
I don't know how to address it without coming across as critical of his life partner - a role I respect even if she is a pill.   

I used to think we had a DIL problem.  Our DIL has always been aloof to DH and me, possessive of DS, and unappreciative of gifts or other welcoming gestures from us.  She repeatedly rejected our FOO, and made it clear she doesn't want much to do with us.  But now I have decided that it is not a DIL problem at all.  It is a DS problem. 

I am not hurt by DIL's behavior, because I long ago quit expecting anything from her in the way of warmth or caring.  We are on excellent terms with DS, but DS is clearly aware of DIL's treatment of us.  DS compartmentalizes - he has a life with her, a relationship with us, but it is pretty separate. 

I find that I am hurt.  Not by DIL.  One must invest one's feelings in order to become hurt, and I invest no feelings in DIL. 

No, I find that I am hurt by DS.  DH and I go out of our way to never say an unkind word about DIL.   (Basically we just don't mention her).  Our interactions with DS are always pleasant. Because we don't want DS to feel "caught in the middle",  we say nothing about DIL's demeanor.  We don't want to be accused of making DS "choose sides." (Plus the fact that DH and I would be on the losing side.  Guaranteed.) 

So the scenario is . . .  DIL treats us shabbily.  We smile and say nothing and we all pretend.  It's like the elephant in the living room.  Everybody knows it is there - but nobody says a word. 

What's bothering me is that DS seems to be fine with DIL treating us poorly.  I recognize that he loves her and that she is first in his life, but it hurts that our adult son would think it is OK for his wife to be so rude to his FOO.  It's not that it hurts for HER to treat us that way.  What hurts is that DS tolerates his wife treating his parents that way. 

Any advice?

Lilly - how did you find out about the nasty thing she said and thought all those years?  Did she erupt to your face, or did you discover it on the internet?   (Like Herbal, I have a hard time keeping names and stories straight.) - If you found it on the internet - did you confront her? 

What does/did your DS say about all the insults to you?  Did he stand up for you?   Does he know?
 

Smiles - sorry the visit was what it was.  I am not quite sure of the logistics - were you and DH both there? (you say . . . I visited, I went out to eat, etc. - but it also sounds like your DH was with you.)   

Do I take it you stayed with them?  I thought I remembered  previous thread from quite a while ago where you decided you would stay at a B&B rather than with them, so you could protect yourself from their over-reaching expectations (24/7 servitude). 

Did you stay at a B&B on a previous trip?  Did that work better? 

Not saying you should visit again at all - just saying that your visit sounds like a good example of why not to stay under same roof with AC. 

I know I do not ever want to stay with DS and DIL.  As in wild horses couldn't make me. 

I say ask your DS to bring the baby for a visit.  That way, you have a nice, peaceful visit with your DS and his child, the FDIL can be left alone to get ahold of herself, and you don't have to suffer her rudeness.

Maya Angelou wrote "When people show you who they are, believe them."

Your FDIL has shown you who she is.  Believe her. 

The good news is that there is still an "F" in front of that DIL.  Maybe they will NOT get married.  Surely your DS realizes that they have too many problems to form a stable marriage at this point. 

Have the baby visit you  - and save your money to help your DS with legal fees for the custody and visitation case. 

Quote from: Footloose on June 23, 2012, 01:36:20 PM
Ya know what? I didn't think of that before and your are so right! She actually was sleeping and let her glasses fog up. There's our govmt at "work" !

Didn't think of what, Footloose?  And the sleeping?   I had not heard that.  What is the source of that information if you don't mind?   thanks. 

Today's Dear Abby column made me feel like the man with no shoes who complains until he sees the man with no feet.   

Today's column had a letter from a future bride who resented her future MIL's request for copies of some snapshots from the young woman's picture album.  Rather than being flattered that the future MIL WANTED pictures of the young woman, this future DIL said she didn't understand why the FMIL didn't just take her own pictures of the happy couple. 

The Dear Abby response was to the effect that the FMIL obviously had warm feelings for the FDIL, or would not have asked for pics.  Dear Abby advised the young woman to "become less territorial". 

Good for Dear Abby!!!

Anyway, I have never been so intrusive as to ask for pictures (except for the wedding pictures) - and I don't think my DIL would object if I DID ask for pics.   So there is a young woman out there who is MORE territorial than my DIL!!!

Hey, I may not have any shoes, but at least I have feet! 

Quote from: Pooh on May 08, 2012, 11:05:04 AM
Welcome Monroe and I'm sure if you are just reading the most recent threads, it does sound like the majority of people here don't communicate or try to talk.  I did try to talk to DIL, to DS and then both of them together at various different times.  . . . . .

. .. . . . So yes, I tried the communication route first.  Made everything worse, but I don't regret it because I do feel like I tried.

Pooh - I am a new poster, but not a new reader.  I have actually read many many full threads going back over a year.  Most in the DIL threads, some in the AC threads.  I realize problems may be as much because of AC behavior as DIL or son-in-law behavior - it's just easier to blame the DIL or SIL instead of our blood children. 

I didn't mean that most people don't try to talk.  I meant that most experienced members here advise against it - maybe because, like you, they HAVE tried, in a non-confrontational way, and it has been futile - so most posters seem to advise against trying to talk things out because it doesn't work. 

What's the old saying -- "Never try to teach a pig to sing --- it's hard to do and it only annoys the pig"

That seems to be the outcome - someone tries to talk it out with a relative, and it only annoys that relative, despite the first person's best intentions.  (And no, I am not calling DILs pigs - that's just the old saying - could also refer to a MIL who doesn't want to iron things out with a DIL or SIL or neighbor or anyone else, for that matter)

Quote from: pam1 on May 08, 2012, 08:00:38 AM

WWU doesn't have a list of recommendations, we just have posters who post their own thoughts, experiences and opinions.  In this case, a lot of our members have posted their experience with talking to someone as a MIL or DIL and how it didn't work out for them.  We do have a couple posters where talking it out did work, maybe try reading around some more.  WWU doesn't have a consensus on issues, we just provide a place for posters to discuss their own experiences and opinions.

Did not mean to imply that WWW had a position.  I meant that 99% of posters (not the website itself) would seem to advise a certain course of action.  Apologies. 

Quote from: Lillycache on May 08, 2012, 05:02:19 AM
In my case it was simply that no one was open and honest about what was bothering them.  . . . . . . .  So yes... I became colateral damage, but now  that I have her "writings"  I can understand (well maybe not understand because most things were pretty trivial) where she was coming from and her line of thinking.  It's so sad that this entire fiasco could have been avoided by open communication on both parts.  .  .  .  .  .

Hi - I've been reading for a long time, finally thought I'd throw in a comment.  I understand where Lilly is coming from - but when a MIL on these boards is tempted to try to talk things out with a disinterested or seemingly rude DIL, I would estimate that 99% of the advice is to NOT do so - but to stay silent in order to not "lose" the son.  So it seems to be a dilemma - don't rock the boat, stay quiet - just accept that "that's the way she is. . . it is son's choice. . . move on, etc"    Then after years of no one being open about what was bothering them - it's too late to repair the relationship.   

Is there ever a time when this forum recommends trying to clear the air with DIL and son?  Not in confrontational manner, but in order to clear the air and not let hurts fester?   

Just wondering.