WiseWomenUnite.com

It has finally sunk in.  I think some MILs are simply dealt a no-win hand.  Sure, some MILs are difficult - but not all of us are.  And some DILs are wonderful.  I think the DILs that come to this site (WWU) are well-intentioned and seeking good relationships with their MILs, if I may engage in a generalization. 

But what opened my eyes was surfing the web, and coming across another forum, which seemed to be devoted to simply bashing the MIL.  I read a few threads, and was thinking to myself - that poor woman (MIL) the poster (DIL) is talking about never had a chance.   I looked at the complaints as posted by the DIL, and found myself thinking that the MIL had not done anything wrong - but the DIL did not see it that way.  The posts were vitriolic and hateful.  Obviously the moderators did not follow Luise's rules! 

I'm not saying my DIL is vitriolic.  She is not (to my knowledge).  She is simply indifferent.  Her choice.  But looking at the hateful site made me see for the first time that some MILs never are given a chance.  I certainly have not been.   She is totally indifferent to me as a person - and nothing I can ever do will ever change that.   

If all I had to judge by were the sincere, caring DILs one finds here, I might never have come to that realization.   But some MILs simply never have a chance.   I see it now.   

M., I agree and I think it is also true that some DILs simply can't win; it works both ways.

When I started this forum years ago, it was because I got so many questions on my Website, www.MomResponds.com , regarding misunderstood MILS. I realized it wasn't a question and answer situation and my venue wasn't suited to address it. I first called my second Website: www. MotherInLawsUnite.com. However, very soon distressed DILs were sharing what they were up against and after a year, I changed the name to www.WiseWomenUnite.com because we all want the same thing, mutual respect. The dynamics are different but the difficulties are similar...disrespect and all the ramifications of estrangement.

My rules came from my wish to have this be a safe and kind Web-forum. We were, in some way, all hurting when we arrived...we didn't need more abuse. Since it's my site and would cost an arm and a leg, if it wasn't a gift from my son, who created it to my specs and maintains if for us, I get to call the shots. It's kind of a benign dictatorship.  ;) In real life, I am no PolyAnna but if there is no structure chaos can follow. When this site first went up, there was a private message board as part of the software and that eventually became a bashing-behind-the-back opportunity for a few. I asked Kirk to remove that feature, deleted the memberships of those so inclined, and for the most part it has been smooth sailing since then. This is a place to come to be heard and a place where many have healed. That's where my heart lies.

As a victim of the bashing on the site Monroe is referring to... and the realization it was my own DIL doing her share.. I vowed to NEVER enter that cesspool again.  I have not even been tempted to look.   Needless to say, this site was a welcome oasis in what seemed to be so prevalent out there..  So kudos to you Louise for keeping this place safe, sane  and nurturing. 

Young adults need the room to develop their own lives and interests, strengths and get some gumption and drive. I see so many parents who have no life of their own and want their adult children to be their social group, at their beck and call, and mom/dad totally involved in the AC business. Where they do not include the in-laws and or where the grandchildren are semi-raised by one grandma cause she needs something in her life. And its fine with her that the other inlaws are really outlaws cause she gets "more" she thinks. Many call this "normal" but I think it is unhealthy.

I have come to think we should not expect our AC or their spouses to want us to be their best friends. I used to hope for this, but now I think it really is not natural order of things. I think young adults need more room to grow up, mature, get a life, etc. On their own. I used to want to be close to my adult children but it is not going to happen for several reasons beyond my control, so I am working on accepting life as it is. At some point, as AC grow older, I think a friendship with the parent can happen. But at that point, everyone is more like equals maturity wise, or should be anyway!

I agree with you Green Thumb...  I think it's unfair to expect our ACs to kow tow to us and to be our best friends... but that is not what Monroe was talking about...  believe me... there are places out there that are so toxic and venomous that it can hardly be considered "normal" by any stretch of the imagination...  and it is very clear that the MIL was never going to be liked no matter what she did.   It's a raw deal to be sure and something we cannot control..    We can only control how we react and how we let it affect our lives and happiness.     I chose to completely make the break even if it meant never seeing my son or my GKs.     Fortunately, that did not happen, and my son choses to see me and to bring his kids to see me..

I was making a general statement not aimed at the OP. Sorry if it came across as criticism. I think she has been frozen out like many of us and if it is a dysfunctional situation, there's not much hope it will change I think sometimes we are frozen out because of the other FOO hogging the attention, time or just plain making it clear their child has to know tow to them. As in a narcissistic family. If we are a good person, we want to give love and be loved, and we are usually shocked when it isn't wanted or reciprocated. Very sad and all we can do is accept reality.

I think it's even worse when it comes a surprise.  In my case, I had absolutely no idea how much my DIL hated me.. and how much her FOO was feeding into it with her.  Her rendition of past events were unrecognizable to me.  I was wondering if I was somehow asleep.. or crazy..   To make matters worse, I learned this was going on for 10 years and my poor son was exhausted from protecting me from her..   IN the end though, I firmly believe it is better to know where you stand and then you can begin to do what is best for you.  It's cruel to keep someone in the dark about such intense feelings.  My heart breaks at all the posts from bewildered MILs who just don't understand what is going on, or what the problem is.  They know something is wrong, but no one will tell them.    It's like trying to play a game with someone, and they will not tell you what the rules are, and just get a kick out of watching you fail.  It's almost sadistic.

Some of us DILs are in a position of not being allowed to voice anything to our MILs. My DH has told me when I've mentioned an issue to him, that yes MIL shouldn't have said/done that, it's wrong, but we couldn't possibly tell her such a thing. So she has no idea, keeps doing the thing she shouldn't be, and I keep getting madder and madder. She knows something is up, especially after our Christmas visit. But DH won't let me say anything.

New, you must have a very different relationship with your DH than I have with mine.  I would no sooner bite my tongue over repeated issues than I would hold a lightening rod during a thunderstorm.  It will eventually out and when it does there will be hell to pay.  When I have had issues with my MIL  I have let her know, in a kind way, that her opinions were noted but that we disagreed with her and why.  Then if she advanced her point further I would say something noncommittal and change the subject.  To not allow you to correct the her behavior in any way is a recipe for the failure of the tenuous MIL/DIL relationship.  Your DH is correct that telling her may make things worse but not telling her will definitely make things unbearable at some time in the future. 

How much time have you spent telling your MIL what a good job she did in raising the man you fell in love with?  I found it very helpful to praise my DH to my MIL because it always turned into the sort of mutual admiration society.  Once she was on my side we could talk about anything.  Really!  Maybe then you could ask your MIL how to approach her DS about his decision to never let you tell her when she does things that bother you.  After all I have never had a relationship with anyone, even my own parents and children, where there was no irritation.  The two of you could work out a code and the next time you say something about wildflowers (for example) it could mean that she was stepping on a nerve and the same for her. 

Good luck!

Quote from: NewMama on May 28, 2015, 05:13:28 AM
Some of us DILs are in a position of not being allowed to voice anything to our MILs. My DH has told me when I've mentioned an issue to him, that yes MIL shouldn't have said/done that, it's wrong, but we couldn't possibly tell her such a thing. So she has no idea, keeps doing the thing she shouldn't be, and I keep getting madder and madder. She knows something is up, especially after our Christmas visit. But DH won't let me say anything.

With all due respect, you may have some problems with your MIL, but you also have a problem with your DH.  I would be having a serious talk with my DH about how not saying anything is making it hard to have a good relationship with your MIL.  If I found out my DS had told my DIL that she couldn't talk to me about something I may have done or said that upset her, I would be mad at him, not her.

To answer a couple things: My MIL shuts down when you are direct with her - like literally pretends you are not talking, hangs up the phone, walks away, etc - so asking her how to approach DH is rather pointless. She will not approach him with a problem herself, so there's no advice to offer. She also tells me on a regular basis how perfect DH was as a child, and how not perfect my kids are (Why do they act like that? DH *never* did anything like that. And my favourite "I was more fortunate than you, I didn't work"). So praising her as a mother is not a topic I want to open with her. Message received loud and clear that I am not as good a mother as her.

And Pooh, I have told him point blank. It very much is a DH problem. That not addressing issues damages the relationship between myself and her. DH is of the opinion that MIL will shatter into a thousand pieces if you make her have a bad feeling, and since I'm a 'stronger' person than her, I need to just accept the stuff she does and let her do it. Some day I feel that I'm going to explode over something insignificant and stupid (and I have told DH that as well).

Communication can be positive and effective. We can stick up for ourselves without blowing up the house. Quietly and firmly stick up for ourselves with "I" statements. "MIL, I feel angry when you say I don't spank the kids enough." Rather than, "you b word, you are so stupid if you think hitting the kids is good for them!"

And it helps to put yourself in the other persons shoes and think about their feelings. Not saying she's right just saying a little compassion can help you communicate better. For example, my former and current MIL were/are narcisstic and I don't like either. They are not nice people. But knowing how narcisstic the current one is, we realized she doesn't care if we are at family gatherings, as long as her golden child is doting on her! We could be mad, but instead it's relief not to go and knowing she doesn't care if we are not there. So we are off the hook. It's quiet assertiveness.

New, your MIL does this to control everyone. It is not about you or your kids. Her words are about herself and what is broken inside her. She manipulates and controls. When you get angry at her, she controls you. She sounds like a royal pain and terrible to be around. But don't take it personally, she'd say the same to me!! Sometimes I tell people thank you for telling me, said with a smile. Often shuts them up cause they want you to get mad. The other thing is to meekly answer "oh, this is how hubby wants it" no matter what. When she says son was perfect and your kids are terrible, you could respond "thank you, this is how son wants it" and don't get mad. You can say the same phrase over and over, always with a smile. It won't change her, you don't have the power, but you can change your attitude. She isn't attacking you as you, she manipulates and controls cause she is messed up. When you stop taking it personally, you take back your power and you win. It's hard, my boss is like your MIL and she is a pain!

Quote from: Green Thumb on May 28, 2015, 06:54:38 AM
New, your MIL does this to control everyone. It is not about you or your kids. Her words are about herself and what is broken inside her. She manipulates and controls. When you get angry at her, she controls you. She sounds like a royal pain and terrible to be around. But don't take it personally, she'd say the same to me!! Sometimes I tell people thank you for telling me, said with a smile. Often shuts them up cause they want you to get mad. The other thing is to meekly answer "oh, this is how hubby wants it" no matter what. When she says son was perfect and your kids are terrible, you could respond "thank you, this is how son wants it" and don't get mad. You can say the same phrase over and over, always with a smile. It won't change her, you don't have the power, but you can change your attitude. She isn't attacking you as you, she manipulates and controls cause she is messed up. When you stop taking it personally, you take back your power and you win. It's hard, my boss is like your MIL and she is a pain!

WOW  GT...   You sound like you know New's MIL personally..   

New, could the word, 'let', imply that DH controls you like MIL controls him? It is a word I heard often in my first marriage. It was a kind of covert intimidation suggesting he was the wiser. I think the word 'let' represents a kind of implied protection. We don't 'let' our children cross the street alone when they are little..or 'let' them play with fire. In adults, the word seems to me to be other than protective. I wonder if your DH and you wouldn't benefit from some counseling? (I left when my DH refused.) Simply put, you are not his child and you are not his 'second' priority. I took it for 18 years. That may be your choice as well, once the dynamics are clear. Or our situations may not be similar at all. It's just a guess. What tore me apart for 18 years were the 'whys' and the concept I could change something that was set in concrete...plus the implication that I was 'less-than'. Not so!

Quote from: Green Thumb on May 27, 2015, 11:15:43 AM
I was making a general statement not aimed at the OP. Sorry if it came across as criticism. I think she has been frozen out like many of us and if it is a dysfunctional situation, there's not much hope it will change I think sometimes we are frozen out because of the other FOO hogging the attention, time or just plain making it clear their child has to know tow to them. As in a narcissistic family. If we are a good person, we want to give love and be loved, and we are usually shocked when it isn't wanted or reciprocated. Very sad and all we can do is accept reality.

Hi Greenie!   No offense taken.  Frankly I totally agree with both you and Lilly.  Young adults (and older ones, too!  ;) ) need to have their own lives and interests.  I don't expect their lives to revolve around me.  And I don't want my life to revolve around him and indifferent DIL.  To have a mutually respectful, adult relationship, fine.  But I do not want to be enmeshed.  If the DIL or son-in-law liked me, I would be willing (but not insistent) to be more involved.  But with the DIL so indifferent, and with son adoring her, it is frankly pretty boring to be around them. 

DH and I treat adult married son as an adult.  But the problem is he acts like a rebellious teenager at times.  Way too old for that.  And I am not willing to put up with that ten years after his high school graduation.  (I didn't put up with it when he was a minor and I was legally responsible for him.  Sure not going to tolerate it now.) 

I deserve respect.  I cannot demand it, but I do deserve it, and I can choose to very much limit my relationship with anyone who does not respect me. 

Anyway, Greenie - thanks for your comments.  ZERO offense taken.  (We might even be soul mates!)   ;)

Quote from: Lillycache on May 27, 2015, 11:36:18 AM
I think it's even worse when it comes a surprise.  In my case, I had absolutely no idea how much my DIL hated me.. . . . . . . . . .  I learned this was going on for 10 years and my poor son was exhausted from protecting me from her..   IN the end though, I firmly believe it is better to know where you stand and then you can begin to do what is best for you.  It's cruel to keep someone in the dark about such intense feelings.  My heart breaks at all the posts from bewildered MILs who just don't understand what is going on, or what the problem is.  They know something is wrong, but no one will tell them.    It's like trying to play a game with someone, and they will not tell you what the rules are, and just get a kick out of watching you fail.  It's almost sadistic.

Hi Lilly, old buddy, old friend.  I totally agree with you.  I was in the dark (self-inflicted, I'm sure) - because I kept ignoring her slights.   I would make excuses in my head, rationalize, bend over backwards to not take offense.  Until finally I could not rationalize her attitude any longer.  She never DID anything.  But that was just it.  She never did anything.  Was not responsive to gestures of inclusiveness, friendship, etc.  She must have thought I was as dumb as a post to not "get it" sooner.  But I just kept giving her the benefit of the doubt until even I could not doubt any longer. 

I was bewildered, but eventually realized, as Luise would counsel us, that the "why" does not matter.  I finally saw the "is".   I never found anything vitriolic like you did on that other site, but my son said (only once in a weak moment) that he was tired of being in the middle.  So she must have been giving him an earful, but nobody ever shared with me the substance of the complaints about me. 

After that (and I am grateful he did share that with me) I finally accepted that my rationalizing excuses for her bad behavior was not productive.  We are civil when we see each other, which is only a couple of times a year, but I don't feel any responsibility to try to build any kind of relationship. 

And I agree, Lilly, that it is cruel to keep the bewildered MIL in the dark about such intense feelings.  I wish I hadn't been such a Pollyanna for so long, or that my son had slipped and told me years earlier that he was in the middle. 

Then we get to the part about him acting like a child (him asking favors, me complying, him being rude and disrespectful) and I ask myself - why do I put up with this?  I would not tolerate this from a friend.   Why tolerate from my son, who is an adult?  My "mothering" days are over.  I am not responsible for him.  If we are to have a relationship, it has to be mutually respectful and it is not. 

I think sometimes the adult children want to have it both ways.  They want to live their own lives, free from parental interference (and this is a TOTALLY reasonable desire on their part) - but they want all the advantages of being a little kid - borrow Mommy's car, have a place to crash, expect unconditional love when they are rude and disrespectful.  I actually do have unconditional love for him.  I just don't have unconditional "like" for him.  There.  I said it.  I don't like my son.   AARGH! :(

Quote from: NewMama on May 28, 2015, 05:13:28 AM
Some of us DILs are in a position of not being allowed to voice anything to our MILs. My DH has told me when I've mentioned an issue to him, that yes MIL shouldn't have said/done that, it's wrong, but we couldn't possibly tell her such a thing. So she has no idea, keeps doing the thing she shouldn't be, and I keep getting madder and madder. She knows something is up, especially after our Christmas visit. But DH won't let me say anything.

Hi NewMama -

Gee, could I have you for a DIL?  I'd love a DIL who would actually talk with me. 

I do agree with Lilly that it is better for the MIL to be told, and you seem to feel the same way.  In a later post, you shared how your MIL shuts down when anyone is direct with her.  Someone like that may not be open to talking things out with you, but sweeping it under the rug never works either. 

Your MIL sounds very controlling, and you and your DH will have to deal with it sometime.  It will never go away unless you deal with it, at least between the two of you.  You deserve to set boundaries, and if she doesn't respect them (and that will be a hard lesson for her) - you will probably eventually wind up cutting her off completely. 

Your DH may have to make a choice - - deal with it soon, while some sort of relationship can be salvaged - or deal with it later when it explodes into a complete cut-off. 

Good luck. 

We don't want to recognize the mean behavior aimed at us, the slights, the nasty comments, the "I am/was better than you" because we are good people and we would not do this to others.

We have such high hopes for our kids as they grow up that we usually avoid reality, in realizing the AC are sometimes real pains, using us, etc. I don't like 3 of my adult children. Yes, I said it too. Like you, I no longer give anything any more to them. I am considering changing my will. I picked up a clearance item book at the bookstore last year, "The Sociopath Next Door" and to our utter dismay found out it described one AS. 

And the same for NewMama, it hurts to be the scapegoat as NewMama has been made to be and it really hurts that husband is oblivious to her pain and defends his nasty piece of work mommy.

There's a million people like this, nasty or narcissistic or just plain self centered. They are in my family, at my job, at your job, in your family, and strangers on the street. I am working on myself not to react to these kind of people, not let them hurt my feelings and to think in my head "don't take it personally" when they are giving me crap. My boss, my daughter, neighbors in the HOA, my dead mother, my in-laws.

I am living the dream, just like all of us here.

Chiming in since I haven't completely figured out DIL's opinion of me. I do know that she is indifferent. No communication at all. And I have been reaching out to her for six years now.
It's come to a point for me: enough is enough. I'm tired of trying to form a relationship with her since it's obvious she has no desire for that. I can respect that, but it's disappointing. I had always dreamed my DIL would want to be close to our family. My DS is good to DH and me, though. He never says a word to us about her feelings towards us, so I really don't know if she is just a private person or what.
Funny thing though, my DH doesn't care one way or the other whether she is friendly towards us. He says as long as she is a good wife to our DS, and she is, and that she loves DS, and she does, that's enough for him. He says that we will always be in-laws to her and nothing more, so just accept it. Maybe that should be my perspective, too. I think it bothers mothers more than fathers.

In my case, it was different in the beginning.  Before my son and DIL were married, she did reach out to me to have a relationship.  We had lunch once... we went shopping once.. and I thought we had a great time.. I know I did.. so I really believed everything was roses and unicorns.. and I was so happy to have her for a DIL..   Apparently I failed the initial interview.. I don't know why or how... but I guess I was reprehensible in some way, as all that stopped and the hatred began.  What was the grievous sin I had committed....  I really still don't know.   She told me that I should know.. and believe me, I racked my brain trying to remember anything that may have happened, or could have been misconstrued.. but to no avail..  So.. I just gave up..  and NOW I certainly don't care.   I don't have time of the energy for those senseless mind games.   And that's all that they were.. and very cruel at that.   My stance now is that if I did something I certainly hope it was really horrible..   lol!!

IMO, as I've said before, some MILs and DILs have an agenda they seemed to have set long before any relationship between DS/DIL was on the horizon! Some women cannot share the man (DS or DH) with anyone else, period. Yuck. My DIL is in that category (with help from her FOO), as was my dad's mom (my grandmother.)

I suspect the DILs on the "bash" site wouldn't like any MIL they ended up with, just as there are MILs who wouldn't like any women their DSs ended up with. Sad.

Sad indeed..   And this seems to be a "women thing"..    There are absolutely no websites completely devoted to the hatred of FILs..   Nor are there any sites where sad confused FILs come to seek support.   Right?   

totally sad that it is "a woman thing".  jealousy - strong personalities - stubbornness - or just a woman's need to be appreciated?
too bad that since i am cut off and ignored the rest of the family gets left behind too -my hubby, my siblings, my other kids.  DS and DIL are cutting out a whole lot of people who want to spend time and love their children because of WHY?   so very sad.

I wish I could remember what book the following was in, but it was a parenting book explaining why mothers and fathers are both important and why mothers parent different from fathers. The gist of it is that women value interdependence, thus we want relationships. Women have always needed each other in order to survive, and needed a healthy man to hunt, farm, etc. to feed the family.

Men on the other hand, value independence. This is why a father teaches his children to get a job, don't cry, learn to drive, etc. Go out and hunt and kill and bring back the bacon, etc.

The DIL who says you should remember what ugly thing you did that created her hatred sounds mentally unstable or manipulative or a narcissist/sociopath. That kind of statement without giving a true answer is meant to manipulate and control. She will never let it go and I would suggest you recognize the blackmail this stuff really entails. You are not wrong, you are not stupid to not know what the heck she means. It also likely means there is not a thing you did, she is lying to cover up that she is really a hateful person. This kind of statement, "I won't tell you, you should know or read my mind", is a sign that she doesn't want to work it out, she has nothing but bad intent towards you.

I am sorry, I am blunt, but I have heard crap like this from my sociopathic son and my narcissistic ex husband and daughter. You need to guess what you did and you need to jump through hoops to please me. It is never their fault, it is often made up, and it isn't ever going to change, they will always be a pain to deal with. I highly recommend Dr. Phil's Life Code to learn how these people are and how to protect yourself.

Quote from: shiny on May 28, 2015, 04:57:58 PM
Chiming in since I haven't completely figured out DIL's opinion of me. I do know that she is indifferent. No communication at all. And I have been reaching out to her for six years now.
It's come to a point for me: enough is enough. I'm tired of trying to form a relationship with her since it's obvious she has no desire for that. I can respect that, but it's disappointing. I had always dreamed my DIL would want to be close to our family. My DS is good to DH and me, though. He never says a word to us about her feelings towards us, so I really don't know if she is just a private person or what.
Funny thing though, my DH doesn't care one way or the other whether she is friendly towards us. He says as long as she is a good wife to our DS, and she is, and that she loves DS, and she does, that's enough for him. He says that we will always be in-laws to her and nothing more, so just accept it. Maybe that should be my perspective, too. I think it bothers mothers more than fathers.

Shiny - we must have the same DIL!  ; )    Like you, I was puzzled.  DIL didn't do anything.  But that was just it.  She didn't DO anything.   Didn't respond to our friendly gestures, rarely thanked us for gifts.  Was completely indifferent.   We were careful to be open but not intrusive - to be friendly but not pry.  No personal questions.  No dropping by. 

I get how you say you haven't figured out DIL's opinion of you.  I was the same way.  But I think by their repetitive attitude for YEARS we have in fact figured it out.  We don't know WHY.  We never will.  And Luise would tell us that we don't NEED to know WHY.  We need to accept that and move on.  We know we don't deserve indifferent DILs, but that is what we got, and we certainly don't want to shove our sons into divorce.  So it is what it is. 

My DH was, like yours, better at accepting it than I was.  I had always felt that there were logical consequences to my actions.  When I studied in school, I got good grades.  When I goofed off, I did not.  When I was nice to someone, they were friendly in return.  If I was rude to someone, I was not surprised if they were rude right back.  So I had this idea that if I were nice, the DIL would like me and be nice right back.  After all, we did love the same man. 

But it just doesn't work that way.  Not my fault.  I'm still a good and decent person.  This is a reflection of her - not of me.  I gave it the good old college try.  Like you, I kept the door open for 5-6 years.  She never crossed the threshold.   Not saying the door is locked - I don't really know if it is or not.  But it is a closed door now.  I don't hang on to expectations that she will cross the threshold and want to connect with our family.  So the door is closed - keeps the wind and rain out.  She would have to go to the effort to open it and cross the threshold and make an affirmative effort to have a relationship.  Maybe the door is locked.  I find nothing in my heart for her.  So at this point it might be that nothing she could do would warm me.  But we will never know because she wouldn't even respond when the door was open. 

I have gone out the back door, by the way, and gone down a different road in life, in expectations, etc.  The road I have gone down is filled with people with whom I share the same interests, and who value me as a person.   Take a walk with me sometime? 

Monroe, your post encourages me greatly!

Yes, I would love to take a walk with you, right NOW!

Seems like you're farther down the path than me, though, but I'm following behind you!

Like you, I kept/keep thinking logically -- if I do 'nice' -- I get 'nice' in return. But it's not working that way. That's what stuns me. Especially in extended family. Could accept it easier if it were a neighbor or acquaintance.

I still haven't had a talk with DS about her yet, and hesitate to do so. It might cause hard feelings all around. And, I wonder if he even notices? Surely, he's not unaware?

Is it better to close the door, and not even mention it unless he does? That could be never!

Heard recently that many problems occur in families simply for lack of communication.
But what good is communication if both parties aren't willing to negotiate?
If she doesn't care how I feel or what I think, she won't engage in sorting things out.

IOW: if I've offended her in any way, I would make it right if she would only let me know.

Did you ever discuss with your DS?

I do take comfort, though, in the fact that I have been kind, good to her. Accepting her into the family. Not interfering or critical in any way. So, it's really her issue, not mine. The way she's behaving says a lot about her character, or lack of it.

I think let it go. Your idea of what constitutes family is not hers and it just is the way it is. If DIL just doesn't care, doesn't talk to you but isn't hostile, then asking son about it could turn into pointing out her flaws. Even if you say it nice he might take it hard or as criticism. My SIL says hello, I give him a hug, but he is only interested in himself, his toys and his mom and dad. If we talk to him about himself, ask how's the new boat, etc. and give lots of praise he will engage somewhat. He will not engage by his own choice and will not if his mom and dad are around. When his parents are there, he only engages with them.


Lastly, I work with 50 women and many will only say hello if you say hello first and force eye contact. Walking in the hall, and we are all in one building in cubicles! Especially the younger ones. Many are not friendly but most of the older ones are, but not all of them. It's obvious which people are only concerned about themselves. You can't force someone to want to have a relationship.

(Monroe, not meaning to usurp your thread here ..)

GT: thanks for your insight.

I understand a relationship can't be forced, nor would I want that.
Also, am realizing that the 'family unit' can look differently to everyone.

What I'm having difficulty with is a DIL who chooses to ignore me, for reason(s) unknown to me.
Examples: no response to occasional email sent few times a year, no mention or call on my BD (while she and DS celebrate her FOO birthdays with weekend gatherings), no acknowledgement of our BD gift to her (or anything we send to her by way of DS), and when she does come to our home for special holidays, does not participate in conversation, will not share any detail about her life, etc.
We have not been invited to their home in three years, even though I've mentioned we'd love to visit, even for a few hours; yet, her FOO is there several times a week, every week.
I could go on, but hopefully, you get the gist.

When a neighbor brings a cake or something over, I express gratitude for their thoughtfulness.
A neighbor, mind you.
So, I just can't comprehend how/why my son's wife is so stone cold toward us.
I do know that he was raised better, and to use good manners.
That's the main reason I want to bring the issue up to him--maybe he knows a reason.
Should I be the one to always tiptoe around her, not wanting to upset her, while I suffer in silence and confusion?
I'm really getting too old for all this nonsense...

Quote from: shiny on June 03, 2015, 03:49:15 PM
(Monroe, not meaning to usurp your thread here ..)

GT: thanks for your insight.

I understand a relationship can't be forced, nor would I want that.
Also, am realizing that the 'family unit' can look differently to everyone.

What I'm having difficulty with is a DIL who chooses to ignore me, for reason(s) unknown to me.
Examples: no response to occasional email sent few times a year, no mention or call on my BD (while she and DS celebrate her FOO birthdays with weekend gatherings), no acknowledgement of our BD gift to her (or anything we send to her by way of DS), and when she does come to our home for special holidays, does not participate in conversation, will not share any detail about her life, etc.
We have not been invited to their home in three years, even though I've mentioned we'd love to visit, even for a few hours; yet, her FOO is there several times a week, every week.
I could go on, but hopefully, you get the gist.

When a neighbor brings a cake or something over, I express gratitude for their thoughtfulness.
A neighbor, mind you.
So, I just can't comprehend how/why my son's wife is so stone cold toward us.
I do know that he was raised better, and to use good manners.
That's the main reason I want to bring the issue up to him--maybe he knows a reason.
Should I be the one to always tiptoe around her, not wanting to upset her, while I suffer in silence and confusion?
I'm really getting too old for all this nonsense...

Shiny - you didn't usurp my thread - - it is a thread for all, and I appreciate your comments. 

I too struggled with the idea of talking it out.  Not with DIL - but with son.  No he is not oblivious.  He cannot be - he is a pretty smart young man - so he is not oblivious.  I thought my DH and I could talk with son, learn what the problem was and try to fix it.  If there was a simple factual misunderstanding, we could clear it up and have a good relationship.  It is just like an elephant in the room.  I just couldn't see living another 30 years this way. 

I suspect Green Thumb is right, though -  when she says

"Your idea of what constitutes family is not hers and it just is the way it is. If DIL just doesn't care, doesn't talk to you but isn't hostile, then asking son about it could turn into pointing out her flaws."

I would only take issue with Green Thumb where she says "but isn't hostile".  Frankly, if DIL doesn't care and doesn't talk to you - to me that is the very DEFINITION of hostile! : )

When I got married, I wanted to have three families.  I wanted to stay a part of my FOO, I also wanted to be a part of my husband's family, and I wanted the two of us to have our own family.  To me, the 3 are not mutually exclusive.  Just like I don't have to choose between being a redhead, a Cardinals fan and a swimmer.  I can be all three at once. 

I don't think the younger women have that same attitude.  This is a generalization - but I think that many of the women in their 20's and 30's are very self-absorbed.  There's a book by Ron Alsop, called The Trophy Kids Grow Up.  It is about how millennials are presenting challenges to employers, because, he says, they are the  "most demanding and most coddled generation in history". 

I am a baby boomer, and I do think the Greatest Generation did a better job of raising their children than the Boomers did.  The GG were born in the 1920s, were teenagers during the Depression and went off to WWII in the 1940s.  They SAW hardship, even if they did not personally suffer much.  Nobody was blind to the suffering of the Depression - or loss of life in WWII.  Greatest Gen parents instilled good, solid values in their children (the Boomers). 

The Boomers, on the other hand, went overboard on their children.  Hovering, meddling at the grade school, until the term "helicopter parent" was coined.  Everything little Johnny wanted, little Johnny got.  Children of Boomers expect their own cars at age 16.  Boomers themselves did not - but they made sure their kids did.  Greatest Gen parents served home-cooked meals.  Children of Boomers expect to eat out all the time. 

College dormitories in the 1960s and 1970s were pretty spartan.  A large communal bathroom for 25 girls to share.  Similarly, one phone on the hallway wall for all those girls. 

Colleges have been updating their dorms to include private bathrooms and luxury suites.  And of course everyone has their own smart phone. 

So this generation has been coddled - they have been told they are special - and been given so many "participation trophies" I can't count. 

Of course not ALL millennials are spoiled and act entitled, but I am not imagining the trend. 

Shiny, could it be that your DIL is one of those?  Doted on by over-indulgent parents who never taught her to be kind and considerate?  Just thinking here. 

On that other nasty website, I read a thread where one DIL had the perspective that when she (the DIL) allowed the MIL to babysit, the DIL was doing a favor for the MIL.   This young woman had no idea that the MIL was doing HER a favor.  I'm sure the MIL enjoyed being with her grandchild - but the DIL saw it entirely that she was being magnanimous to the MIL, not that the MIL was doing the DIL a favor.  That was a real eye-opener for me.

So you may have one of those self-absorbed, entitled millennials for a DIL.  Trying to talk to her or your DS would probably do no good.  I am reminded of Maya Angelou's line - - "When people show you who they are, believe them."   It seems that your DIL has shown you who she is - it's not pretty, but it seems to be who she is.  Believe her.  Green Thumb is most likely right.   

Now, for the counter position.  Your son is her husband.  She is number 1 in his life.  You are not.  But you still hold a place of importance, and if you want to explore with him what the problem is, why not?  What's the worst that could come of it?   He becomes aware of the strained non-relationship between you and DIL??   I assure you he already knows about it.  She has given him an earful.  He know all about it and knows exactly what her issues are with you.  You don't have to be accusing or critical in your conversation with him - you could just be honestly bewildered, as you are.  It might be uncomfortable for him - but so is the continued pretense that you are both part of the same family and that everything is fine. 

I decided not to talk to son about it, mainly because I realized that I was totally done with DIL.  No, I have not "cut her off" or anything - but they live across the country, and we rarely see them - so I just go through the motions.  Barely.  I thought - if son and I talk, and I  learn what the problem is - and then I'm supposed to do what?  There's probably nothing he could tell me that would give me a "lightbulb moment" - so I would say "Aha!  Problem solved!" and then embrace this young woman.  After getting the cold shoulder for so many years, I don't like her.  So I decide it was easier to keep on with the status quo - If she responded positively to my conversation with her husband, then I would have to try to have a relationship with her, and I really am fine having nothing to do with her. 

So I did not have the talk.  But I might go ahead and have that conversation if I thought there was anything to salvage in the relationship.  But there's not. 

What about you, Shiny?   Would you truly be open to a relationship with DIL at this point?  If so, maybe a talk is not a bad idea.   If not, then why bother???

Take care. 

I actually talked to my DS about it but in a round about way.  He was not answering the phone when I called or returning calls or texts.  I assumed that he was mad at me or had issues with the way he was raised.  When I talked to him I came at him from the point of the relationship I had with him and his maybe issues with the way I had raised him.  He denied the whole thing and said that his then fiancee had panic attacks and visiting us often caused them.  Great!  Since it is almost impossible to get an engaged couple to visit separately and she could not visit I basically lost my DS for a few years.  Not fair at all!

Then thanks to this thread my attitude changed.  I decided that I had probably been like the schoolmate who so desperately wanted a friend that they would do anything if you would only talk nice to and about them.  Most people are leery of starting a friendship with people like that.....me too.  But I so desperately wanted to be friends with my soon to be DIL that I even subjected myself to a visit with her therapist trying to get on better terms.  What a mistake that was!  Of course it was her therapist so naturally the entire session was used on her issues with me.  The only time I was asked to say anything it was to apologize and let my almost DIL know I knew how hard it was for her to open up.  Never even a word about my issues with her.  That was the last straw.  I quit caring if we were friends or enemies.  My DS would have to deal with it but I would not.

That happened before the marriage and so the wedding was honestly painful to me.  I wanted to cry but you have to smile and say nice things, right?

About a year after the wedding they got pregnant and made the trip out to tell us in person (we live about 45 minutes away).  When they told us my DH said "Well we need to move out of town" and I walked over to his side and laughed and agreed.  They think that things between us improved because the GC came along but honestly they had no idea how much things had changed even before the wedding.  The only way I got through the wedding was by telling myself that it would be the last time I had to deal with them ever and I had honestly enjoyed my life since their nuptials....so calm and quiet! 

When the child came I think my DS was a little hurt that we were not at the hospital.  I was at home and could see from facebook that the hospital room was full of her family and I certainly did not want to go and visit since my DIL had been telling her FOO how entirely horrible I was for years.  Lion's den comes to mind.  Anyway we waited until the next day when no one else was around to visit.  We did not stay long and I thought I was done with it.  Cute baby, but getting attached to her was out of the question.  They fooled me though!  Seems her parents are in poor health and have a hard time keeping the GC so I get to keep her some.  She is way too cute to be able to avoid falling for but I am a lot biased!

Anyway, my point is that when I stopped letting them control the situation, it got better.  I decided that they were not going to make my life miserable anymore.  I stopped letting them push my buttons.  If I see them, great!  If I don't, great!  If they call me back, fine. If not, oh well.  My life is not going to be governed by a couple of 24 year old newly weds who don't have the experience we do. 

The other day my DIL implied in conversation that I had changed after the baby was born.  I told her that there is no way that anyone has a baby and does not change so I am sure both she and my DS have changed.  The truth about the matter is that I have changed.  No one will ever be able to hurt me the way they did before the wedding.  Ever!  I do not think that is better for her or for any of my future in laws but it is better for me.  I promise!!!

Monroe, WOW -- your comments are spot-on!

Thank you for your helpful, in-depth and well-articulated post!
It's already giving me food for thought, and hopefully, others too.

You may be on to something about the "generational" divisions.
DH and I have discussed this issue numerous times b/c we both had grandparents that lived into their upper nineties, and we saw their lifestyle -- working hard, eating from the garden, canning, and avoiding the consumerism culture that's so prevelant now.
And the term 'Trophy Kids' you used reminded me of our son playing in three different sports from age five thru high school. Every season, the whole team would get a little plastic trophy for just participating. We'd scratch our heads saying, "Whaat?". It got to the point where all the kids expected one of those trinkets, and they meant nothing to them.
I'm going to read that book by Alsop.
Haven't decided yet if I will talk with DS or let it alone. The most it could do, I suppose, is 'force' her to be nice and I certainly don't want fake affection.
Another thing that I wonder about, though, is if DS knows what her problem is with me, and he knows the real me, why doesn't the son become the arbitrator and help her see where her beliefs are misguided. Seems like the DS could take a little more responsibility in this area, IMO.

SL, I agree -- need to let her stop pushing my buttons! Glad you took back that control.

i DID try to talk to my ds.  he does not want to hear anything is a problem. i am being called a martyr and they don't understand why i think there is a problem.
trying to not contact.  finding myself caving and sending emails inviting visits or just saying u are on my mind.  don't get any phone calls and if i call no one calls back.  my heart is so broken.  finding it hard to stop.  maybe i need to break my computer and get rid of my phone.

how can a child drop someone who has loved and supported them for yrs?  know i will NEVER understand.  stilllearning - ur post helped immensely - want to be where you are

Earlier in this thread I wrote that I didn't like my son.  Since that point in time, he made a solo visit to my DH and me, and we had the chance to have a conversation with him, much like Still Learning did with her son.  We approached it the same way -- as in what is what is the problem between me, DH and our son?   DIL's name was never mentioned.  Only thing probed by us was if there was some issue between son and parents, because we didn't like the rare email or phone call from us to be ignored, or his occasional testiness, and if we had done something, we wanted to know so we could address it. 

Son declared no issues.  Fine, we accept that - but by asking about OUR relationship with HIM, we showed him we valued that relationship and were willing to work on ourselves if we had somehow offended or hurt his feelings.  Now we take him for his word, and move on like big people. 

I totally agree with you, Still, that we do not want to be that desperate schoolmate.  We don't have to chase after anybody.  Just as my children are adults, so am I.  They deserve to be treated with respect, so do I. 

If they treat me with respect and affection - the arms are wide open.  If not, well, I have many friends and interests in life - and those friends DO treat me well, so I will go there.  I won't go away mad, I will just go away. 

Son treats me fine now - and I have been through reaching out to DIL.  Son will need to compartmentalize.  He's smart - he can do it. 

Still, it sounds like you made lots of positive changes long before this thread.  Maybe you meant Luise's whole website here?   But it is sounding to me like you have developed a back-bone and some healthy self-respect.  Congratulations!   :D :D :D

Let them figure out that we are interesting, fun people.  Let them WANT to connect with us. 

But I am done with letting family treat me with disrespect - and that is broader than just adult children.  Have had issues with demanding, angry elderly mother.  Have taken it for years.  Finally had an awakening and realized that I was taking emotionally abusive treatment from elderly mother that I would not take from any friend, relative, co-worker, store clerk, ANYBODY.  But because she was my MOTHER I was tolerating very unacceptable behavior, which only taught her that she could get away with it - because I would in fact tolerate it.  So I developed some boundaries - she didn't like it, but has started to accept it.  And guess what?  She is much nicer to me now. 

I couldn't tell her to change.  Logic didn't work.  But when I set boundaries and refused to be treated poorly, she had to change or have me go my own way. 

Still, I think it is the same with our grown children.  Maybe we tolerate too much (yes, your visit to HER therapist was above and beyond the call of duty.) from our adult children and in-laws in an effort to bond.  But I wouldn't want a relationship with a DIL where I was always on trial, where I had to prove myself, walk on eggshells, tiptoe, try to please, etc.   If the initial warm welcome and continued reaching out was met with cold shoulder, I'm entitled to go another direction.  I refused to be that desperate schoolmate when I was 14.  I certainly won't do it now, when I am 40 years older. 

Quote from: shiny on June 04, 2015, 05:23:52 AM

Haven't decided yet if I will talk with DS or let it alone. The most it could do, I suppose, is 'force' her to be nice and I certainly don't want fake affection.
Another thing that I wonder about, though, is if DS knows what her problem is with me, and he knows the real me, why doesn't the son become the arbitrator and help her see where her beliefs are misguided. Seems like the DS could take a little more responsibility in this area, IMO.

SL, I agree -- need to let her stop pushing my buttons! Glad you took back that control.

Hi Shiny - let us know if you do talk with DS.  I don't know if your DS has shown symptoms such that you could address it, not as issue with DIL but as issue between DS and you and husband?   But if DS has not been rude or disrespectful, it could be hard to address it as problem between you and DS. 

In the meantime, get involved with your own friends - hopefully other empty nesters with whom you can take little trips and do interesting things.  For years when we traveled, it meant paying for 6.  Now it is just the 2 of us.  Much easier, less $$$.   Enjoy those aspects of the stage of life you are in. 

If DS and DIL are not treating you well, or if DIL alone is rude to you, but DS is so besotted with her that he is thinking with the wrong head, go your own way - find people who will validate you - not tear you down.   

Hiking, skiing, card games, volunteer work (Habitat for Humanity, animal shelters, tutoring disadvantaged children, etc,) - find people with common interests.  You are not a door mat. 

Quote from: gettingoldandcranky on June 04, 2015, 07:32:03 AM
i DID try to talk to my ds.  he does not want to hear anything is a problem. i am being called a martyr and they don't understand why i think there is a problem.
trying to not contact.  finding myself caving and sending emails inviting visits or just saying u are on my mind.  don't get any phone calls and if i call no one calls back.  my heart is so broken.  finding it hard to stop.  maybe i need to break my computer and get rid of my phone.

how can a child drop someone who has loved and supported them for yrs?  know i will NEVER understand.  stilllearning - ur post helped immensely - want to be where you are

Getting Old and Cranky - everything here is for you, too.  You may never understand - you only have to accept.  Because you cannot change THEM.  That being said, you are not a doormat.  You have tried.  Now go in a direction that validates you.  By the way, when I first read your name, I read it as   Getting Gold and Cranky.   Yes, you are gold.   

Detach, take a deep breath. Repeat.  Take care. 

Monroe, you've lots of wisdom concerning the DS/DIL issue and glad you're able to help others, too!

The only reason I've held back from a confrontation with DIL is because DS has good relationship with DH and me. We've always been close to him. He's good to call/email every week, and visit each month for several days. I have NO complaint with our relationship with him, and am thankful for this. Just don't want to cause him grief b/c of the way his wife acts. I'm 'behaving' out of respect for him, if that makes sense.
I have a 'full plate' now, as the sole caregiver of an elderly parent with dementia and other illnesses. (No trips in near future)
But I do get what you're saying -- when we occupy our time and minds with things we enjoy, AND get our minds off ourselves and onto other people who need help, our problems diminish. No, they don't completely resolve, but it sure takes the sting out.

LOVE the new name: Gold and cranky!

And, I'm going to borrow your words, "Detach, take a deep breath, repeat" as my new daily mantra!

GOAC: it will get easier as time goes on IF you make some changes in your life and your thoughts. Take baby steps. Try not to focus on them or how they are treating you, but focus on other things/people. Yes, we have to respect ourselves and refuse to be treated in hurtful ways. It's hard at first to enforce some boundaries, but so worth it. If we don't take control of how we're treated, no one else will do it for us, except continue on with what they're doing. Hugs to you.

Quote from: shiny on June 04, 2015, 07:04:09 PM

The only reason I've held back from a confrontation with DIL is because DS has good relationship with DH and me. We've always been close to him. He's good to call/email every week, and visit each month for several days. I have NO complaint with our relationship with him, and am thankful for this. Just don't want to cause him grief b/c of the way his wife acts. I'm 'behaving' out of respect for him, if that makes sense.
I have a 'full plate' now, as the sole caregiver of an elderly parent with dementia and other illnesses. (No trips in near future)
But I do get what you're saying -- when we occupy our time and minds with things we enjoy, AND get our minds off ourselves and onto other people who need help, our problems diminish. No, they don't completely resolve, but it sure takes the sting out.

Hey, Shiny - I'm jealous.  Sounds like your son lives out of town, but visits for several days each month BY HIMSELF and calls or emails every week.  You have no complaints about relationship with son - and he does not inflict the rude DIL on you.  Sounds like heaven to me!   

You get to see your son - he takes an interest in you - but does not inflict the rude DIL on you.  I frankly would prefer that to having her come too, and be rude to me.  We recently had a chance for a solo visit with DS.  It was great.  Very comfortable - no elephant in the room.  90% of the time we see him, we see THEM.   So it is stiff and stilted - no fun at all.  Having someone there who has made it clear that she has no interest in her FIL or MIL puts a real damper on the interaction.  I would LOVE it if we had solo time with son and didn't have to deal with DIL at all. 

thanks shiny and monroe.
my end game is playing out now - i hope i finally get it.
  i have a medical test scheduled and my ds did not call to offer caring or support.  dil wrote an email -" good job keeping up on things - let us know how it goes."  signed it "regards".  no love sent, no call received.
this should be my bowing out moment.  i need to stay strong. 

Monroe, you are too funny! (saying, 'sounds like heaven to me.')

You're right -- and there's nothing more helpful than to be reminded of our many blessings ...

Think it's human nature -- or at least for myself -- I tend to 'zero in' on those things that I want so badly and do not have, while forgetting to focus on what I do have that brings joy.

So, today, I'm off to be thankful for what I do have, while also being thankful for what I don't have -- cause it could be a whole lot worse!

Lot of truth in the previous posting!

Please do not assume that your AS or DIL have your values of how important family is and how interconnected we should be because we are family. My husband always tells me "Don't assume they have your same values" when I am saying I can't understand why someone did whatever. If you look at their behavior as a reflection of their values, it make perfect sense. If you look at their behavior from your own perspective, it makes no sense or feels hurtful.


I call it the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality, they just have to show up to get rewarded, no effort or work needed. My 5 townhouse neighbors are all young and they do not care about their property and will not do anything in the HOA. They expect someone else to put lightbulbs in their outside lights when they burn out, actually they don't even notice when they are burned out. One guy told me his FATHER came over and changed his outdoor lightbulbs for him (I do it now because it is dark and not safe.)


The young mother who thought she was doing her MIL a favor to allow her to babysit is a narcissist. We can't change anyone like that, if this is what you are dealing with, you just have to protect yourself as best you can. It isn't about us as the MIL, it is about their personality disorder.

Earlier I wrote :   "I don't think the younger women have that same attitude.  This is a generalization - but I think that many of the women in their 20's and 30's are very self-absorbed.  There's a book by Ron Alsop, called The Trophy Kids Grow Up.  It is about how millennials are presenting challenges to employers, because, he says, they are the  "most demanding and most coddled generation in history". 

And I think that some of us struggle when we get a Trophy Kid for a DIL.  On the flip side, (and this just recently occurred to me) - the Trophy Kids were in large part raised by Helicopter Moms.   While it is hard for some of us to have Trophy DILs, it must be equally hard for a regular, nice DIL to have a Helicopter MIL.   If that MIL had always been after the teachers to raise Johnny's grade, after the coach to let Johnny play more, always running little Johnny's life, then that same woman would be a pretty intolerable MIL.  Why would we expect that Helicopter Mom to turn into anything but a Helicopter MIL?   Just a perspective I thought I'd toss out there. 

That book discussed how employers are dealing with Trophy Kids as employees.  Anybody know about any research on how Trophy Kids are faring at in-law relationships?  Impact on families?  Are there any statistics showing an increase/decrease/no change in in-law friction.   It would be interesting to know.   

Quote from: Green Thumb on June 05, 2015, 07:13:14 PM

Please do not assume that your AS or DIL have your values of how important family is and how interconnected we should be because we are family. My husband always tells me "Don't assume they have your same values" when I am saying I can't understand why someone did whatever. If you look at their behavior as a reflection of their values, it make perfect sense. If you look at their behavior from your own perspective, it makes no sense or feels hurtful.

Greenie - our husbands are both right!  He tells me basically the same thing.  And that I simply need to detach more and lower expectations.  (Basement level, anyone) 

I too have been guilty of projecting my values onto others.   So when DIL gives us the cold shoulder - I am bewildered because I view that through my own perspective.  Her actions tell me what her perspective is.  I need to remind myself of your wise words when you say "If you look at their behavior as a reflection of their values, it make perfect sense."

Her actions have told me - loud and clear - that she wants nothing but distance from DS's FOO.  Message received.  To the extent I, like Shiny, was bewildered, I was refusing to receive the message.  Maya Angelou famously said "When people show you who they are, believe them."

Greenie - you also said in an earlier post -- "We don't want to recognize the mean behavior aimed at us, the slights, the nasty comments, the "I am/was better than you" because we are good people and we would not do this to others. "

That is so so true.  I think that's why I (and maybe Shiny as well) have been so bewildered -- We don't want to recognize the slights  directed towards us, and so we struggle reconciling the DIL actions with a disbelief that anyone would be so unkind.  But Maya tells us - we need to believe them when they show us, through their actions, who they are. 

Shiny, what do you think? 

Monroe, I have posted the book you recommended under the category, Helpful Resources. Thanks!

Shiny - in an earlier post you said --

"Should I be the one to always tiptoe around her, not wanting to upset her, while I suffer in silence and confusion?
I'm really getting too old for all this nonsense..."

My answer has become NO.  I decided I was tired of tiptoeing around, walking on eggshells, reaching out, pretending everything was fine, giving her the benefit of the doubt when major family events were ignored.  (Not events about me - but other members of DS' FOO - deaths, life-threatening illnesses, milestone birthdays - and I mean three-digit birthdays).  I have thrown in the towel.  It was always unreasonable of me to expect her to respond and want to connect with our family.  Well, maybe not always, but at least after the first year or two.  But I kept on, like an idiot not getting the message.  She truly must have thought I was dumb as a post. 

But we recently had a solo visit from DS.  It was marvelous.  Had a great time, talked about lots of things, but I didn't ask about DIL at all, and he didn't really talk about her either - only in the course of "we did this or we did that"   not "she this or she that".  So I have dropped the rope, as they say. 

By the way, I am far from a helicopter mom/MIL.   I always thought my job as mom was to raise my kids to be independent and self-sufficient.  I encouraged them and supported them - but let them fight their own battles growing up.  So they could deal with challenges and problems as adults, without my help.  I succeeded very well there.   

I can be guilty of many things, but being a Helicopter MIL is not one of them.  So, like Shiny, there is no reason for the refusal to have a relationship - except for what is inside DIL. 

It probably follows that if we weren't Helicopter Moms/MILs...our DILs could well have been raised by one. Tough stuff!

GT and Monroe, I agree with both of your posts!
The possibility of dealing with a 'trophy' DIL is very real, now that you've mentioned it.
From the very few times I've been around DIL's DM, have noticed that she still tells her everything to do. hmmm.
Nope, I wasn't a helicopter parent either. DH and I raised our kids to be independent and we're grateful for that.
Recently read an article about young adults contemplating marriage should take a deep look into their prospective mate's family, because the mate will always carry his/her family within them. IOW, they will bring how were raised into the marriage -- good traits and not-so-good ones.
My point is, if DIL was raised to be inconsiderate, insecure, whathaveyou, then I can understand that.
What I can't understand is why my DS allows this behavior when he was not raised this way?
I keep going back to him -- how HE can let it continue?
Seems to me DIL would want to be friendly and kind to her DH's family if she knows that would make him happy and bring peace?
All of the comments in this thread have helped me make some tremendous progress in past few days.
(Love Maya's quote, Monroe, cause it's true!)
Appreciate you all.

Luise, I've missed your presence here! Thanks for your comments!

Quote from: gettingoldandcranky on June 05, 2015, 02:22:48 AM
thanks shiny and monroe.
my end game is playing out now - i hope i finally get it.
  i have a medical test scheduled and my ds did not call to offer caring or support.  dil wrote an email -" good job keeping up on things - let us know how it goes."  signed it "regards".  no love sent, no call received.
this should be my bowing out moment.  i need to stay strong. 

Hi Goldie - thinking of you, hope you are doing OK.  Let us know.  Not that you want to be that schoolmate chasing the cool kids, either, but I will simply observe that you got an encouraging email from your DIL.   Probably more than Shiny and I ever got.   She asked, so let her know how it went, and then bow out - drop the rope, get busy with life.   Volunteer groups - walks in park - what do you like to do?   Are you retired?   Still punching the time clock?  You have lots to offer - go where  you are appreciated.  You don't have to cut them off, but drop the rope.  Make them wonder.   (I've been playing hard-to-get with my kids for years.  They have yet to notice.   :D  )

Lilly and Pen - how are you both doing? 

Quote from: shiny on June 06, 2015, 12:59:18 PM

What I can't understand is why my DS allows this behavior when he was not raised this way?
I keep going back to him -- how HE can let it continue?

SEX

Quote from: shiny on June 06, 2015, 12:59:18 PM

Seems to me DIL would want to be friendly and kind to her DH's family if she knows that would make him happy and bring peace?

I agree.  DH and I visit his VERY elderly (and sweet as pie) widowed father every week.  DH cannot go in the middle of the week, as FIL is asleep before DH finishes work and dinner.  So I go mid-week every week, to make it not so long in-between visits.   FIL and I have a good relationship, and what I do for FIL is SOOOOOOO appreciated by DH.  I am getting back WAY more than I give. 

Monroe! This is hilarious!!

Guess I'm living under a rock since this never occurred to me.  Duh...

Quote from: shiny on June 06, 2015, 01:11:05 PM
Monroe! This is hilarious!!

Guess I'm living under a rock since this never occurred to me.  Duh...

Yes, Shiny, and you are never going to compete with DIL in THAT arena - or we will have to call the authorities!   :D :D :D

When they think with the little head, logic and fairness have no place.   

Very astute observation, M.!

In addition to M.'s diagnosis, she is his choice and priority. We have to let go of 'whys' and trying to make sense of the senseless. They are adults and have created a new family unit and get to make up their own rules. She gets to sign' 'regards' if she chooses and be herself. Parents are often on the outside looking in. Our job is done,  we did our best and some us get left behind. I did.

Luise, thanks for the 'hard-hitting' truth, and the 'bottom-line' reminder! It sums it up!

I agree with all your statements, and totally get it.
The part I'm wrestling with?

"They are adults and have created a new family unit ..."

And their family unit now consists of DS, DIL, and 'her' FOO.

If it were the same for both family sides, I could accept easier.
But it's not, and having a hard time swallowing this bitter pill.

Am working on it though, while gagging, hoping it will go down ...

Yes, that was what stopped me in my tracks, too. After DS and DIL created a separate, adult unit...they erased us and chose to deify her FOO. No logic was involved and no resolution. I had to go though what was real for me. The fact that DS allowed it for ANY reason was heartless betrayal and abandonment. That was my experience. It shook my world; the injustice and coldness of it took me down dark roads into rage and then despair. I believe most of us have to go through those feelings to transcend them and survive. Sending you all good things this Sunday morning.

Blessings back to you, Luise! (and EVERY morning!)

No matter how much time passes.. and no matter how much we accept the situation, the unfairness of it sometimes jumps up to bite you..   My son came over today with the grandkids.   The little one will be 5 next week.  He is counting how many "get ups" he has left until his birthday party.   I had a cake for him today.. and I gave him a present.. but he asked me if I was coming to his REAL party... next week.   What answer can you give a 5 year old.   Of course he is having a party with my DILs FOO...  Of course I am not going, and it's really better that way... and I would not want to go either.. but the unfairness of what has lead up to this hurts sometimes..... even after all this time. 

lilly - r u not invited or are u choosing not to go?   i know how hard it is to attend a group get together and most of the group ignores you, gives you eye rolls, or just baits you with loaded conversation.  sorry you are going through this and if it wasn't so important it wouldn't continue to hurt

Quote from: gettingoldandcranky on June 08, 2015, 07:01:30 AM
lilly - r u not invited or are u choosing not to go?   i know how hard it is to attend a group get together and most of the group ignores you, gives you eye rolls, or just baits you with loaded conversation.  sorry you are going through this and if it wasn't so important it wouldn't continue to hurt

No.. I have not been invited to anything for over 5 years..  and no, at this point I would not go even if I were.  So both I guess.

In that case my reply would have been something like "I didn't know you were having a party!  Wow!  What fun you will have!  Call me and tell me all about it!"  I understand not wanting to go but hearing the joy in your GS's voice (and maybe having his Mom hearing it) would be really wonderful!  Enjoy your stress free week! 

One thing I have learned from all my troubles, is I wish I would have been more honest with my kids. If I had not hid their father's drinking and drugging, I think it would have lessened his power to cause the estrangement. Therefore, I say this with caution. I think you answer your grandson frankly but with great tact. "Oh, you wish I could come to your party?" Or, "I'd love to come to your party, sounds like fun." If he asks, why don't you come to his party, you just say "I was not invited but I know you will have a good time!" Just acknowledge his feelings without jabbing at his mom. At some point, the grandkids are going to ask or talk about why you are never invited. Don't hide it but don't bash their mom. "Why doesn't mommy like you?" "This is very sad and I don't know why but your mom is a special lady and I am glad you are my grandchild."

I am learning so much from all of you. Practicing detachment for those grandchildren yet to be born who will not know me. Acceptance and not expecting anything or more love.

Quote from: Green Thumb on June 09, 2015, 04:22:16 PM

I am learning so much from all of you. Practicing detachment for those grandchildren yet to be born who will not know me. Acceptance and not expecting anything or more love.

This is why I am hoping my DS and DIL do not have children.  They live far away, we don't see him much, but we would see him even less if they had kids.  And I don't believe we would be allowed much of a relationship with any GCs.  DIL is already very territorial regarding DS (who was MY baby) - I imagine she would be even more possessive of HER babies.)   So I'd rather not have GCs at all than to have GCs I don't know and at the same time see LESS of our own son. 

I, too, am apprehensive about how GC will affect our family. Way back when DH & DIL were planning the wedding I allowed myself to think about the joys of being a GM in the future. Now I can be fairly sure that we will be the "left behind" GPs...DIL has said as much. Her FOO will be more exciting to GC (money, big house, expensive toys, pool, vacations, etc.)

DH & I will not be able to compete on that level. Our wonderful attributes are more subtle and less shallow, but I think the big splashy attractions will win out at least until the GC are older.

Oh pen, do not despair!!  We are the poorer grands but we do the cooler things!  We camp.  We canoe.  We play outside and have fires!  The other GP have lots of money and indoor stuff so they have their own niche and so do we!!  Do crafts, go fishing, go to the park, fly a kite.  There are so many things that build relationships that have nothing to do with money and trust me, there are a lot of rich kids out there who would rather have some real time with their grands than anything else!

My Dad's family was wealthy but when I went there they had very little to do with me except shop.  They were sweet and took good care of me but my Mom's mom, who did not even have running water, she was the grandparent's lap I ran to get in and beg for her to sing an old song I remembered and Mom's Dad told the coolest stories!  I have often thought I should write a book of Daday's stories!!  And he could not even read!  Trust me, money isn't everything and even little children know it!

Pen,

Listen to Stilllearning, while money might be nice. You have something you could give future grandkids that money can't buy, it is unconditional love, giving it to them and teaching them about it. There are so many fun things that you can do without money for all age groups. I can still remember why my aunts kids wondered why we loved going over my Fathers Mothers house, their other grandparents had money and gave them everything but love. At my Nana's house she gave us unconditional love and taught us many things, and on top of that she was legally blind. And I was really blessed because both Nana's where flick poor, but I would not change that for the world. Oh the memories, picture a slightly overweight gray haired woman who is legally blind teaching the grand kids how to slide down her banister properly.

Quote from: Stilllearning on June 11, 2015, 09:58:47 AM
Oh pen, do not despair!!  We are the poorer grands but we do the cooler things!  We camp.  We canoe.  We play outside and have fires!  The other GP have lots of money and indoor stuff so they have their own niche and so do we!!  Do crafts, go fishing, go to the park, fly a kite.  There are so many things that build relationships that have nothing to do with money and trust me, there are a lot of rich kids out there who would rather have some real time with their grands than anything else!

My Dad's family was wealthy but when I went there they had very little to do with me except shop.  They were sweet and took good care of me but my Mom's mom, who did not even have running water, she was the grandparent's lap I ran to get in and beg for her to sing an old song I remembered and Mom's Dad told the coolest stories!  I have often thought I should write a book of Daday's stories!!  And he could not even read!  Trust me, money isn't everything and even little children know it!

^^^^THIS

Same here.  My favorite Grandparents didn't have money barely to pay their bills.  They were farmers and worked from sunup to sundown every day to make ends meet.  My favorite memories are those they created by "doing things", not buying things.  I got to play in the mud while watering the garden, climb the green apple tree and drop them down to Grandpa, go barefooted, sit on the front porch in the evenings singing songs while Grandma held the mason jar so I could run around and catch lightening bugs or while we broke beans, and we laughed...oh we laughed.  I still miss them every day.

I can't tell you a thing about my other Grandma except sitting in her living room and not being allowed to touch anything.  Sounds ugly, but I don't miss her because I dreaded even going to visit.

I completely agree! I think we're the cool ones because we do the most interesting, most fun things...but I'm not sure DIL thinks so.

All we can do is be ourselves and hope for the best, with no expectations.

I was very close to my Grandmother... BUT she was my mother's mother.. I really only saw my father's mother a few times a year.   My maternal grandmother didn't like my paternal grandmother.  Sadly, I didn't put two and two together, or think it was such a universal problem for paternal grandparents, that I had big expectations when my son and DIL has children.   I was SOOOOO going to have the same wonderful relationship with my grandchildren as I did with my grandmother.

Of course that was not to be.   The fact remains  (I realize this is generalizing, but it seems to be true more than not) that when your daughter has children, they are like YOUR children.  Your daughter will trust you more, and pay more attention to your opinions.   When your SON has children... we must keep in mind that these kids belong to another woman.  Period.   They are another woman's kids and even though we claim the same genetic link to them, we are not afforded the same importance as the maternal GM.    It's only OUR expectation and our DILs are under no obligation to meet them..   I know this is a bitter pill for many who come here... however, it must be accepted and accepted gracefully.   

LC, this is so true in my case!

It's been a slow, painful journey for me - still working on accepting it, but's there's light at the end of the tunnel ...

I think we paternal GMs need to come to grips with this reality.  However, once we do, we are often accused of being distant, uncaring and unloving.  It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.  Want to be involved and accepted we are considered intrusive and interfering... Once we STOP wanting to, we are cold and self-centered as I am now accused of.   It comes down to doing what causes us the most pain and makes us the happiest.   I know I am happier now that  I have distanced myself from that emotional roller coaster.  So it's not important to me any longer what my DIL thinks or says.   

The hardest thing I had to learn in the sequence of events you so accurately describe, L., was that none it it had anything to do with me. It originated in the perceptions of another and was about her. For way too long, I tried to determine what I could do to change, so she would no longer discount me. I kept trying to find new ways to accommodate. Of course, what followed was that she found new ways to discount me to support her perceptions.

Luise, sooo glad for your wise comment!

Because after much soul-searching as to what I did wrong or am doing, and not discovering any earth-shattering issue, I have nothing left to do but believe DIL's reluctant relationship with me is about her, not me.
However, I keep going back to how and why DS doesn't mediate and try to sort it out ...
He's always had close connection with me but now, it seems, he's not even aware of the tension.
I'm weary of this nonsense.

S., perhaps he has to make her right to keep from having to see he made a wrong choice? Sending hugs...