Why do so many MILs and DILs dislike or even hate each other? Has it always been this way?
Here are some of my thoughts:
1. There are problems that all in-laws have with each other simply because we get thrown together when we didn't choose each other and lack the common history and hereditary similarities that nudge most of us to love our own annoying FOOs in spite of everything. It's worse for women, though, partly because by nature we tend to be more emotional and relationship-oriented, partly because we live in a culture that expects women to bear the emotions of the family and carry its social life. An emotionally out-of-touch bachelor who barely holds up his end of his relationship with his mother becomes an almost completely detached husband who expects his wife to manage his family for him, remembering to send the birthday cards (with her even signing his name for him), shopping for Christmas, hostessing family events, even doing things with his mother and sister while he isn't present -- and no one asks her whether she wants this, whether she's comfortable with it, whether her in-laws are happy with it. To some extent this is even embedded in our etiquette, with the bride having the responsibility of writing thank-you notes for wedding presents to her new husband's family and friends as well as her own. Writing a few letters may not be a big deal, but the husband's detachment can become extreme -- as in my own case, where I suddenly realized that both my MIL and my husband were using me as a proxy for him so that they didn't have to deal with each other and their own troubled past. Which brings me to
2. The new wife inherits not just her husband's family name, but -- at least if it's negative -- her in-laws' attitude about him. If they believe he is immature, rude, entitled, etc., they tend to assume (perhaps not consciously) that his wife is the same. This is a problem for men, too, but I think that it's worse for women because of the expectation that we will deal with family on a more intimate level (see above), whereas Mr. Husband can just go hide behind the newspaper or in front of the computer screen when difficult relative are around and probably no one will think much about it. Notice how often in-laws given the cold shoulder by their son blame the DIL? This could be an outgrowth of number 1, too, with the wife becoming responsible for her husband's emotions and personal life. Conversely, parents-in-law may inherit their child's spouse's attitude toward her own parents, which may be full of anger and mistrust.
3. Men and women in past generations married younger, often tying the knot right out of high school or college. They never lived alone and were probably much more submissive to their families simply by virtue of their youth and inexperience. These days, we often don't marry or have children till we're in our 30s. It's harder for a woman with a college degree, a career, and over a decade of living alone to suddenly be expected to fit into someone else's family, and hard for her new in-laws to know where they fit in to this busy person's life. The greater age and experience of new wives probably also has something to do with the notorious problem of MILs being unable to give their DILs gifts for themselves and their children that they like. When you have your first baby when you are 35, you've had a lot of time to develop your own taste, and more time to plan what you want for yourself and your family.
4. Women's roles have changed radically in a relatively short period of time and are still in a state of upheaval. A lot of us struggle to relate to women in our own generation, much less to women of our mothers' generation. We tend to have strong feelings about our own life choices, whether we are stay-at-home mothers or work outside the home, and we are almost all touchy and defensive, quick to think we are being judged. Due in part to an explosion of self-help books and information ad infinitum on the Internet, there are also more parenting "styles" than ever before and probably less security about them. My MIL parented my husband as most mothers of her time did, with regular formula feeds, a crib to sleep in, a vaccination schedule that was not questioned, and "crying it out". I parent as do many "crunchy" types of my time, eschewing all of the above. What do we make of each other? Can we each assume the other did/does the best with the knowledge available at that time, or do we judge each other harshly as bad mothers?
5. For better and worse, mothers end up being the "gatekeepers" of their children, especially before they enter school. Even mothers with demanding careers are still usually spending more time with their children and know more about their likes, dislikes, how they're doing, and what (ha!) is good for them. Eager grandparents may end up feeling as though they are negotiating with a stony-faced bodyguard for some grandbaby time and various grandchild-related privileges, and they understandably may feel hurt by this, especially if they are paternal grandparents who see the maternal grandmother "getting more" than they do. It seems unfair and makes them push harder, which in turn makes the new mother feel as though she has two or three babies instead of just one. She can also become hurt and resentful when she feels -- sometimes legitimately -- that Grandma is competing with her for the child's affection and that she doesn't really care about her DIL as anything except a source for grandchildren.
Obviously this is colored by my own experience and I assume others will see things from a different angle. Does anyone else have any thoughts?
My take is that we are all so different that there is no way to be able to generalize. Culturally we're always shifting and adapting...rebelling and reframing. I think there are a lot of success stories out there that don't hit the Boards for obvious reasons. My relationship with my MIL is one of them and is under that category (Success Stories) on this Website. Sending love.
Very interesting list, Vasilisa, though none of those points apply to my situation. I think perhaps the stereotypical 1950's pre-feminist housewife may have run into those issues, but most of the MILs I know who are my age have had lifelong careers, were conscious about raising independent yet kind sons & daughters, didn't want to overindulge, etc. Even those of the generation before us (such as my mom) worked, read Adele Davis (early health food advocate), made gifts and other items by hand, did not overindulge (we had expectations, chores, limited allowance, curfews, etc.) & valued family time around the dinner table (be there at 6 or go hungry.) At least that's how my friends & I were raised in the '50s and '60s. Granted, we came from middle class, well-educated folk in a college town; can't speak for those of different circumstances.
My take on the whole DIL/MIL thing is that there are some DILs who want to cut a DH away from his FOO (or at least make his FOO look pathetic), and some MILs who will never accept anyone their precious DS brings home. If one starts w/either of those agendas or even milder ones on the spectrum and DS doesn't speak up, the DIL/MIL relationship is likely to be doomed. I have a DIL who set out to make us moot. She's been pretty successful at it w/help from her FOO. My DS spoke up early on, but bling is blinding & he's been drinking the kool-aid (gotta love a mixed metaphor, lol.)
IMO, the MIL is the one who loses the most when the relationship goes bad, so there isn't a lot of incentive for a "DIL w/an agenda" to work towards turning things around.
What I've noticed from my own family and watching others, is that daughters seem to stay more attached to their FOO, and if they don't marry someone who's willing to speak up for his own family, they get sucked into DIL's FOO as well. I think on some level it's a man thing - my brother has less contact with my mom, because he honestly is just oblivious to it. They see my SisIL's family more (and we love her, she's great) and I guess we just see it as the way things are. My mom has said she just expected that when DH and I got married, it'd be different from when my DB and SisIL got married. Same thing with babies. She expects to see our babies more than theirs.
My own issues with my MIL (which are fairly recent) I think stem from the fact that our own life experiences color our expectations. She was a stay at home mom with an essentially useless husband, so she was the gatekeeper in their family. She expected the same of me. I didn't quit work (a big sore point). She also thinks I dictate what goes on in the house, when the reality is I married a guy who's a fantastic, hands on dad, works as much as I do, and shares the household work with me. Any major decision is discussed between us until we can come to an agreement. But she is always genuinely surprised when DH backs me up, because she thinks it's all me. Same thing with visiting - she thinks I run the schedule. DH decided not to have an overnight visit with her on Christmas (I said I'd do whatever he wanted) and I get the blame for it. Reality is, if someone wants to visit (or us to go visit) we always run it by the other. I'm happy to maintain a relationship with her for DH and DS, but I know I'm being painted as the DIL who's stealing her DS away. She's been complaining to DH about not seeing our DS enough, but I don't think that the responsibility for it should be placed squarely on my shoulders. DH is frequently the one who torpedos visits because the travel screws our son up for the day (and we're the ones who are up with him all night when that happens). But again, me and my family get the blame for it because in her experience, she ran the family and made those decisions. And I think it's just easier to believe I'm talking him out of visiting her instead of having to face the fact that it's her own DS's doing.
I hope someday to return to the loving relationship I used to have with her, the green eyed monster came out big time when our son was born. So I put my big girl panties on, visit when asked, invite her here, and paste a smile on my face when she's picking on me. I hope as he grows and is able to talk to her she'll calm down.
Some of the things I sloppily put down as generational differences might be differences in subculture, I don't know. I grew up in a conservative religious family where mother (an educated woman) stayed home and father made all the big decisions, and just about everyone I knew at church or school was the same. I married in my 30s and had my first (and so far only) baby at 35 and became a SAHM, and many of the mothers I know are also, although most of us have college degrees and aren't '50s types. My MIL, on the other hand, always had a job, and I don't know if she actually looked down on me for staying home, but she seemed puzzled and confused by it and said that all the mothers she knew worked. Part of our problem, in my opinion, is that she is just not used to being around women who aren't like her.
It is natural if unfortunate that maternal grandmothers would be around their grandchildren more since they have (usually) a close relationship with the mother already. It isn't fair, but we all know that life isn't. I think any woman who has sons and is looking forward to being a grandmother should do her best to have a loving relationship with her DILs for this reason, if for no other. My MIL, however, was nice to me until I got pregnant, after which she was -- not really mean -- but intrusive and dismissive of me, literally ignoring me when she came over to see the baby. It hurt me very badly, made me feel used, but I didn't know how to speak up about it. Now it's too late.
hi Vasilisa,
I think it is too much of a generalization, i also got on with my MIL most of the time. Even when towards the end of her life she developed a severe anxiety condition, where she would phone constantly to locate all off her DS's (but her youngest one in particular) (my hubby is the middle son and we were the most easy to contact.) And that she practically starved herself to death because of it. Indeed I was the only one who was with her when she died (my poor DH was minutes late :( he just couldnt get there in time). And whilst it wasnt the best experience in my life (had never been there when someone had died before) I am glad she knew she wasnt alone. She could be intrusive as you say your MIL was after you had children, i listened but never let her make me feel bad about myself and took on board it was part of what she could be like.
However I have two DD and i have to say my relationship with my YDD isnt easy, she a lot of the time acts more like you say a DIL should/does. I never did anything to make her feel that way, we were closer than we are now when she lived with me and i do hope it gets better as my GC get older.
I am not one to go where I am not wanted so am holding back, i would love to have a closer Mother/Daughter relationship with her but at the moment is not possible, partially i think because she is also trying to please her BF whose family is very much in your face and she wants to appear equal and not favour us (which as i say doesnt work out as they are more pushy and forceful). It hurts that i feel like that.
So generally I would say its not always MIL's and DIL's that dont get along its also sometimes DM's and DD's, its just the luck of the draw or family dynamics.
Jill
I should have said that I can think of four women off the top of my head who dearly loved their MILs. One of them was my own mother. I've also seen the daughter who acts like a creepy, neurotic DIL -- my sister. Who does it with everyone.
I should also say that I think my own situation is abnormal -- that I've had some of the normal MIL/DIL problems (which I handled in the usual inadequate fashion), but that the family situation itself is extremely weird and toxic and was before I was ever on the scene. That colors how I view in-laws, which I know is unfair.
I would like to have a conversation about some of the really common problems that I keep on reading about to figure out why they come up so often and what could be done about them -- like the conversation we're having about grandmothers giving unwelcome gifts over on the other thread.
I hear what you are saying, Vasili. There is a lot of good and true stuff, especially what you say about the difference in childbearing and marrying age. In the past, the age gap was smaller and equally expectations must have been different.
I don't think your MIL should criticise you for not going to work. The early years with the children are so precious and if you can be there for them in a relaxed and steady manner, that's priceless. I'm from the 60's generation where women were expected to work. I didn't have a job then and stayed at home but I was always a bit envious about other women who went out to earn a crust. Now in hindsight, I'm happy to have had the time with my children. However, I don't forget that this was also a privilege and some women just have to go to work - no choice there.
FOO and maternal GM rule! I read somewhere that this can be explained by genetics. The mother knows that she is the mother, so the maternal GM knows that the baby is carrying her genes. Nobody can ever really know who the father is (before DNA testing, that is) and therefore the paternal GP aren't so involved because the offspring may not carry their genes - and according to this study, this is what it's all about!
Like Luise said, every story is different and a lot depends on the cultural and social background.
I considered myself an amiable, easy to-get-on-with, loving, non-judgemental person until I made the wrong decision and moved from a safe distance of 20,000 miles near DS (on his request) and DIL to help look after the GC. I can honestly say this was the worst thing I've done in my life because I turned into the opposite of everything I believed myself to be - and to this day I'm not sure why all of this happened and why only one person should have brought about the change? I'm not blaming anybody. There is something in the chemistry ot DILs and MILs and if it's the wrong mix, it goes BANG!
So anybody out there: if you are considering leaving a well paid job, your house, a country you love, close friends etc. to become a 'MIL from hell' be warned! :o
I own up to having been a 'MIL from hell' for my xDIL and now it's so hard to pick up the pieces to believe in myself again. :-[
Quote from: Vasilisa on April 29, 2012, 03:27:03 AM
I would like to have a conversation about some of the really common problems that I keep on reading about to figure out why they come up so often and what could be done about them
I'm also in the camp that thinks that there is no generalizing about this. This is a specialized population here - MILs/DILs came here because we have situations we need help with and I think we're a fraction of the population. Otherwise we would just have all the help we needed because everyone was going through it. A lot of us just feel like we are the only ones in the neighborhood with our problems. So maybe it's not all that common.
I do think that the fact that we are learning as we go contributes to various problems. Before my OS married, I'd never been in the role of MIL. I thought it would be an extension of being a mom but boy, was I wrong!
Another thing that makes us unique is that we're here to try to make it better. A lot of MIL/DIL/DS combos need help, but rather than seek that help they continue to fight and/or ultimately institute a cutoff.
Quote from: Pen on April 29, 2012, 10:37:25 AM
Another thing that makes us unique is that we're here to try to make it better. A lot of MIL/DIL/DS combos need help, but rather than seek that help they continue to fight and/or ultimately institute a cutoff.
I'm here to learn from the other side. Some situations can't be worked out and I think in those cases a cut-off, while tragic, is the least damaging option for all involved.
I'm curious to know how someone loving and thoroughly well-intentioned can become the MIL from Hell. A good cautionary tale for those who might come to that fork in the road someday.
Vasilia... Good and thoughtful post. I think both sides reach an impasse when both sides refuse to listen and respect one another. That is when I requested a cut-off. She obliged. DH can't believe she acted like this... he has concluded both his father and mother are mentally ill. He only has contact when absolutely necessary. Their behaviors were obvious to our kids... and they want nothing to do with grandparents. So... If that is their legacy...so be it.
Vasalisa, that's why I'm here too but of course my curiosity is regarding DILs who suddenly change. You may have read a few MIL back stories on the site. If so, you know that the "so and so from an evil place" isn't limited to one side or the other. It's safe to say that most of us MILs/DMs came here out of confusion, shock & pain when a seemingly accepting DIL suddenly turned on us or a previously loving DS/DD suddenly became rude, distant, or emotionally abusive.
What makes the MIL experience different from the DIL (and I've been both) is that we DILs do have a chance to meet the Ps, observe the FDH/FOO dynamic and run like heck if it creeps us out. I didn't do that, shame on me, when I married the first time. Luckily my 2nd MIL was very kind & we got along well.
Conversely, we MILs are stuck w/whomever DS chooses. In many cases we either put up w/abuse or risk losing DS/GC. My FDIL was sweet & charming before the wedding; suddenly we became disgusting losers (after our share of the bills were paid & certain legal matters DIL needed help with were cleared up) and worthy of shunning by her and her FOO. Luckily DS stood up for us & DIL has been willing to see us occasionally so we can maintain a relationship, although awkward & oddly superficial, w/DS.
My mom had a horrible MIL, my GM. She truly was heinous and I resolved to never ever ever be like her. She had lost her FOO due to various tragedies, sadly. Her DH (my GGF) was distant and quite a bit older than she, so she put everything into her DS (my narcissistic DF.) She just could not deal w/her precious baby boy, the only family she had, moving out & creating a FOO of his own. She turned from a seemingly sweet, accepting MIL into a raging, bat-poo crazy monster out to destroy my mom. This mean woman lived to be over 100, happily senile; so much for karma.
When DS announced he was engaged, DH & I chose to give them space and did not hover; no texts, no phone calls, etc. unless absolutely necessary for logistical reasons. Never a drop in, no demands of any kind. We gave no advice, did not push for involvement in wedding plans, went along w/whatever they requested even though at times it was out of our budget or inconvenient. My first inkling that DIL was becoming bridezilla, other than her DB calling her that, was when we were given 6 invitations for our side out of over 100.
I spent the next few weeks alternating between sadness and anger. DIL's FOO had gained a wonderful son, but we'd lost one. They absorbed him into their FOO w/o a bit of consideration for his own FOO, taking all holidays, vacations and most weekends. Only after DS complained that he wanted to at least spend EO Christmas w/his FOO did they back down a bit.
It was such a sudden shock that it took awhile for us to adjust, and we're still dealing with it a couple of years later. We get no where near the time w/DS that the ILs get (I know, I know it's not about the division of time, just making a point) and DS hasn't figured out how to be accepting of us while also fitting in w/ his new family who are very different from us. We are not looking too great in comparison to all their luxurious wealth, lol.
Wow, I haven't written a post this long ever! Sorry :-[
Quote from: Vasilisa on April 29, 2012, 10:48:21 AM
I'm here to learn from the other side. Some situations can't be worked out and I think in those cases a cut-off, while tragic, is the least damaging option for all involved.
Many of the posters here are dealing with this exact "option."
I am curious to learn from your side specifically what situations can't be worked out. Under what specific circumstances is a tragic cut-off warranted? Are you talking about a mutual decision or a unilateral cut-off? How do you quantify how much damage this option does to all involved?
I ask these questions because I don't think you can answer them. I agree with what everyone is saying here, generalities don't really answer anything. The only real answer is...it depends. It depends on the situation and the personalities involved. The situation one person claims can't be worked out, another person doesn't even see as a problem. This site is great because people here are individuals. Some are timid, some bold. Some are tender, some tough. Some are serious, some try to inject humor. People post their most painful heartaches and others respond with sincere insight and sometimes advice, hugs, support and caring. I have found that everyone here has treated me as an individual, not a demographic. That's what I like about this group.
It's not about labels here, or "sides" as you put it. Yes we are MILs and DILs and DMs and DDs.... but first we are people. We each have a story that cannot satisfactorily be reduced down to to generalities.
Believe me, I have asked myself how things could go so pear-shaped in a relationship with my DIL.
She was polite before she married my DS, but I was never myself when I was with her and I'm sure she wasn't at her ease either. |We never had a hearty laugh together. I was always accommodating, gave lots of presents etc. and tried to woo her. Neither my DH nor I could ever fully understand why our son had chosen her. We paid towards their wedding etc. but it was always an uphill struggle and my DH feared that it wouldn't last. We did everything for the sake of our DS, believing him to have found his source of happiness.
Then the first child was born and things became difficult because they didn't seem to be able to cope even though her FOO was always at her beck and call. When the second child was on the way, I decided to come and stay near them. My son had expressly asked me to. I left DH who works in a different country, so was on my own. Then the whole tragedy started . I believe, she never really wanted me there and only went with it because her DH had asked me. The older GC was very awkward with me (he was only a 2 ½), so quite understandable that he reacted like this. I was like a stranger.
DIL tried to include me in the beginning but I didn't want to be in the house when her DH was there, I wanted the couple to have time together and not with DM/MIL, so I always left soon after he came. Not sure whether this signalled to her that I didn't want to be with her. The problems became worse when she accused me of not doing things right and not being a great help anyway. Towards the end of my stay in the house near them, I spent a lot of time on my own waiting to be called but she hardly ever asked me to help any more. She only asked for my help when she knew I was doing something else and would have to decline.
We had become unable to talk to each other, communication had broken down completely. I have never been in a situation such as this in my life. I felt really lost and unable to deal with my situation or try to improve it. Everything I ever knew about communicating with people had gone out of the window and I didn't know myself any more. This was so strange.
Then I decided to move back to DH because it didn't make much sense to be at a loose end near them and DH alone in the place where he worked.
The problem from the start was that we didn't have clear boundaries. I wasn't assertive enough (I'm just not wired that way) and maybe even too servile so that she couldn't respect me. I think the lack of respect was the worst thing. I admit I'm easily hurt, I'm not tough that way and maybe I took some things that weren't meant to hurt me too seriously?
My DS left her five months ago which shows that the marriage was on the rocks when I was there, even though I always thought they could work things out and even if they were not exactly happy, their relationship was durable. Since then I have spent a lot of time thinking about how she did see me and what I did wrong. I think I became a MIL from hell because I was too quiet and accepting and maybe gave off vibes (without wanting to) of disapproving with everything which must have been difficult for her.
The fact that my lovely GC will not grow up in a stable family pains me very much because my DS grew up in a 2 parent home. I don't know what made him leave. I do hope that xDIl will be happy with somebody else and so will DS and above all that my GC will not suffer too much from this situation, after all they didn't chose it.
I would like to establish some kind of relationship with my xDIL but how, I don't know – any idea?
WHOOPS a long post - you seem to have struck a chord, Vasilisa!
Quote from: constantmargaret on April 29, 2012, 12:51:06 PM
Quote from: Vasilisa on April 29, 2012, 10:48:21 AM
I'm here to learn from the other side. Some situations can't be worked out and I think in those cases a cut-off, while tragic, is the least damaging option for all involved.
Many of the posters here are dealing with this exact "option."
I am curious to learn from your side specifically what situations can't be worked out. Under what specific circumstances is a tragic cut-off warranted? Are you talking about a mutual decision or a unilateral cut-off? How do you quantify how much damage this option does to all involved?
I ask these questions because I don't think you can answer them. I agree with what everyone is saying here, generalities don't really answer anything. The only real answer is...it depends. It depends on the situation and the personalities involved. The situation one person claims can't be worked out, another person doesn't even see as a problem. This site is great because people here are individuals. Some are timid, some bold. Some are tender, some tough. Some are serious, some try to inject humor. People post their most painful heartaches and others respond with sincere insight and sometimes advice, hugs, support and caring. I have found that everyone here has treated me as an individual, not a demographic. That's what I like about this group.
It's not about labels here, or "sides" as you put it. Yes we are MILs and DILs and DMs and DDs.... but first we are people. We each have a story that cannot satisfactorily be reduced down to to generalities.
I think you're not taking this as it was meant, and I'm reading a combative tone that I don't think is warranted.
There are common problems that frequently come with this sort of relationship. I'm trying to figure out what causes them because forewarned is forearmed and hearing what people on the other side have to say gives needed perspective. You can object to them as "generalities", but generalities are useful as long as one doesn't let them become limiting. If you don't find them useful, that's all right, but don't object if someone else does.
"Sides" is useful shorthand for the roles we all have in relationships. Acknowledging that we can end up in roles or on sides even when we didn't want to is not saying that we are not individuals.
Yes, I can answer your questions. At least I could give you the answers that apply to me. I'm not in the habit of telling other adults what to do, especially in family relationships, and I'm not going to tell another person what I think she can and can't take. I will tell you this, though: No one has the right to demand contact with me except my underage child and my husband, and I do not demand contact from anybody else. And although I can't quantify how much damage is done to another by having or not having a relationship, I will say that I don't see how people who don't like each other and can't or won't get along benefit at all from forcing themselves to see each other on a regular basis. People talk about the necessity of boundaries. Fine, what sort of boundaries? It's okay for me to decide I'm only going to be miserable four times a year instead of once a month? It's okay for me to say I'll eat someone else's abuse only on major holidays instead of every weekend? But it's wrong for me to say no, I'm not going to be treated this way at all, ever, because I deserve better and there is no purpose to all this unhappiness?
I'm not going to answer questions like that for someone else. Would you try to answer them for me?
Quote from: forever spring on April 29, 2012, 01:27:01 PM
Believe me, I have asked myself how things could go so pear-shaped in a relationship with my DIL.
She was polite before she married my DS, but I was never myself when I was with her and I'm sure she wasn't at her ease either. |We never had a hearty laugh together. I was always accommodating, gave lots of presents etc. and tried to woo her. Neither my DH nor I could ever fully understand why our son had chosen her. We paid towards their wedding etc. but it was always an uphill struggle and my DH feared that it wouldn't last. We did everything for the sake of our DS, believing him to have found his source of happiness.
Then the first child was born and things became difficult because they didn't seem to be able to cope even though her FOO was always at her beck and call. When the second child was on the way, I decided to come and stay near them. My son had expressly asked me to. I left DH who works in a different country, so was on my own. Then the whole tragedy started . I believe, she never really wanted me there and only went with it because her DH had asked me. The older GC was very awkward with me (he was only a 2 ½), so quite understandable that he reacted like this. I was like a stranger.
DIL tried to include me in the beginning but I didn't want to be in the house when her DH was there, I wanted the couple to have time together and not with DM/MIL, so I always left soon after he came. Not sure whether this signalled to her that I didn't want to be with her. The problems became worse when she accused me of not doing things right and not being a great help anyway. Towards the end of my stay in the house near them, I spent a lot of time on my own waiting to be called but she hardly ever asked me to help any more. She only asked for my help when she knew I was doing something else and would have to decline.
We had become unable to talk to each other, communication had broken down completely. I have never been in a situation such as this in my life. I felt really lost and unable to deal with my situation or try to improve it. Everything I ever knew about communicating with people had gone out of the window and I didn't know myself any more. This was so strange.
Then I decided to move back to DH because it didn't make much sense to be at a loose end near them and DH alone in the place where he worked.
The problem from the start was that we didn't have clear boundaries. I wasn't assertive enough (I'm just not wired that way) and maybe even too servile so that she couldn't respect me. I think the lack of respect was the worst thing. I admit I'm easily hurt, I'm not tough that way and maybe I took some things that weren't meant to hurt me too seriously?
My DS left her five months ago which shows that the marriage was on the rocks when I was there, even though I always thought they could work things out and even if they were not exactly happy, their relationship was durable. Since then I have spent a lot of time thinking about how she did see me and what I did wrong. I think I became a MIL from hell because I was too quiet and accepting and maybe gave off vibes (without wanting to) of disapproving with everything which must have been difficult for her.
The fact that my lovely GC will not grow up in a stable family pains me very much because my DS grew up in a 2 parent home. I don't know what made him leave. I do hope that xDIl will be happy with somebody else and so will DS and above all that my GC will not suffer too much from this situation, after all they didn't chose it.
I would like to establish some kind of relationship with my xDIL but how, I don't know – any idea?
WHOOPS a long post - you seem to have struck a chord, Vasilisa!
Wow. There are some things you wrote that makes me think of a situation I allowed myself to be talked into with my in-laws. I could give you my own interpretation of what might have happened on your DILs end, but perhaps I would be reading too much of myself into it.
I'm very, very sorry for your situation and that your son's marriage broke up. I hate to see that, too.
(BTW Vasilisa, I notice you never got our usual welcome message. I'm so sorry.)
Welcome! If you haven't already done so, please read the pink-highlighted topics under Open Me First on the home page. We ask this of all new members to make sure the site is a good fit :)
I have created 2 different posts for this subject and each time I have deleted them when I tried to post. Maybe that was a good thing. Pen, you had a good point when you said we all come here to try to understand better about what we are going through and to know that we are not alone is such an incredible relief. To know that others here are going through similar situations even though they all are different. I have been able to look at my situation with my DS and DIL from a different point of view knowing that I and the FOO just wanted to be apart of their lives not controll them by any means. We tried many, many times. DIL did not want to try and made it very clear and DS seems to have followed her lead. My DS must feel the same way because there is no contact. It takes 2 to tango. But I have learned to say that it is OK. He is an adult and can behave as he wishes. Now I feel that I would rather have their anger and respect than be a door mat and have them have nothing but contempt for me. I believe distancing ourselves from them is the best thing that could have happened. I feel better and don't feel like a cloud is constantly over my head. I will tell you this, DS has been married before and had other relationships and we FOO always got along fine with his ex and girlfriends. Vasalisa, we can choose our friends not our family, it is not so much about sides as it is about coping with whatever we have been given in life.
You said in your first post, "Obviously this is colored by my own experience and I assume others will see things from a different angle. Does anyone else have any thoughts?" This led me to believe it was safe to express my opinion.
So I did because I do see things from a different angle. I thought that was ok. I'm not combative. I don't even have a DIL yet. The one I'm getting in August is quite lovely. I'm not forewarned, or forearmed. I don't even have a side. I was just expressing my opinion, like many others, that generalities (in general :D) aren't helpful to me in understanding relationship problems.
You also said, " ....and we are almost all touchy and defensive, quick to think we are being judged." I agree with you here.
You then respond to my questions with this, "I'm not going to answer questions like that for someone else. Would you try to answer them for me?" This only supports what I was trying to say.... Nobody else can give you generalized answers for your specific situation without knowing the history behind it. If you find generalities useful, that's fine. If you want to post a sociological treatise here on MIL/DIL relationships, that's fine too. But if you come here specifically asking for thoughts, you might get some you don't agree with. Nobody here knows your story, because you have only posted in generalities and alluded to the problems that brought you to this site...which I thought was a site for sharing and trying to come to understanding and acceptance, not debate. "Take what you want and leave the rest."
I apologize if I have offended you or anyone else on this board.
Caio
Quote from: constantmargaret on April 29, 2012, 03:58:43 PM
You said in your first post, "Obviously this is colored by my own experience and I assume others will see things from a different angle. Does anyone else have any thoughts?" This led me to believe it was safe to express my opinion.
So I did because I do see things from a different angle. I thought that was ok. I'm not combative. I don't even have a DIL yet. The one I'm getting in August is quite lovely. I'm not forewarned, or forearmed. I don't even have a side. I was just expressing my opinion, like many others, that generalities (in general :D) aren't helpful to me in understanding relationship problems.
You also said, " ....and we are almost all touchy and defensive, quick to think we are being judged." I agree with you here.
You then respond to my questions with this, "I'm not going to answer questions like that for someone else. Would you try to answer them for me?" This only supports what I was trying to say.... Nobody else can give you generalized answers for your specific situation without knowing the history behind it. If you find generalities useful, that's fine. If you want to post a sociological treatise here on MIL/DIL relationships, that's fine too. But if you come here specifically asking for thoughts, you might get some you don't agree with. Nobody here knows your story, because you have only posted in generalities and alluded to the problems that brought you to this site...which I thought was a site for sharing and trying to come to understanding and acceptance, not debate. "Take what you want and leave the rest."
I apologize if I have offended you or anyone else on this board.
Caio
Of course you are free to express your opinion, but it seemed as though you were saying that my attempt to look at possible common relationship dynamics doesn't even have value. It is my
opinion that it does.
The subject was not why some in-laws cut each other off, but why there are special difficulties in the relationship. I'm trying to look at this from both sides (sorry, can't think of another way to express it) and not make my own personal situation the focus.
Constantmargaret, I looked at my last post to you again and see why you thought I was being touchy. It was poorly worded. I meant to ask a general (because, again, I like generalities) rhetorical question about how often and how much someone should allow herself to be mistreated as opposed to refusing all mistreatment. This is because I truly find it astonishing that so many people apparently think bad treatment should just be sucked up, not because anyone expects me to endure abuse during holidays. But that's another topic, I guess. Sorry.
Quote from: Beth 2011 on April 29, 2012, 03:25:48 PM
I have created 2 different posts for this subject and each time I have deleted them when I tried to post. Maybe that was a good thing. Pen, you had a good point when you said we all come here to try to understand better about what we are going through and to know that we are not alone is such an incredible relief. To know that others here are going through similar situations even though they all are different. I have been able to look at my situation with my DS and DIL from a different point of view knowing that I and the FOO just wanted to be apart of their lives not controll them by any means. We tried many, many times. DIL did not want to try and made it very clear and DS seems to have followed her lead. My DS must feel the same way because there is no contact. It takes 2 to tango. But I have learned to say that it is OK. He is an adult and can behave as he wishes. Now I feel that I would rather have their anger and respect than be a door mat and have them have nothing but contempt for me. I believe distancing ourselves from them is the best thing that could have happened. I feel better and don't feel like a cloud is constantly over my head. I will tell you this, DS has been married before and had other relationships and we FOO always got along fine with his ex and girlfriends. Vasalisa, we can choose our friends not our family, it is not so much about sides as it is about coping with whatever we have been given in life.
Again, when I say "sides" I just mean which half of the relationship you're coming from. I don't mean it as two sides in a war or anything like that.
I am of the opinion that distance is an excellent thing. It allows us to clear our heads, figure out what happened, and think about what we did to contribute to the problem. If someone is being abusive, often the only way s/he will take that seriously is by being refused contact until s/he talks it over and does something proactive to work it out. Sometimes the cut off ends up being permanent because one or both sides refuses to even discuss things, but I still think that's better than going on in a situation that benefits no one and could even be damaging another generation.
Vasalisa, I understand your point. However, when you're talking to mothers about distancing themselves from their offspring, even if the offspring happens to be adults, you're going to get some feedback. Motherhood is a powerful thing. Do not expect us all to go lightly into the night.
Since you've had such prolific input on the boards, how about sharing your story? What are you dealing with?
Vasilisa,
You said something about damaging another generation. If what you are going through is that traumatic, you may need to talk with a professional in order to move forward.
Quote from: Pen on April 29, 2012, 06:14:03 PM
Vasalisa, I understand your point. However, when you're talking to mothers about distancing themselves from their offspring, even if the offspring happens to be adults, you're going to get some feedback. Motherhood is a powerful thing. Do not expect us all to go lightly into the night.
Since you've had such prolific input on the boards, how about sharing your story? What are you dealing with?
Sorry, I didn't mean to be prolific so early -- and I don't mean to suggest anyone should go gentle into that good night. Crap. I didn't mean a lot of things.
Oh, what the hey. I don't feel ready to share my entire story, but I'll give a few details. DH and I, when we met, bonded over having crappy families with whom we were mostly distant. I was so swept away at having found my soul mate that I didn't think through what it would be like to be married to someone whose family was at least as screwed up as mine, how I would actually feel about that, how lonely it could end up being, and whether or not I really wanted to bring children into such a situation. Guess I got caught in a dumb moment. Got married. Thought I could help fix things between my husband and his parents, who were mostly estranged from each other -- they saw each other at Christmas and maybe called each other on their birthdays, that was pretty much it. His mother and I developed a cordial if not warm relationship and I tried really hard to defer to her and give her the respect that I thought she deserved as my husband's mother. She treated me fine, too, no complaints here except that the apparent lack of concern for her son or interest in seeing him was strange.
She really wanted to be a grandmother. Thought she'd be happy when I became pregnant, but she just said she "wasn't going to get excited yet" in case something happened, then avoided me completely till I was well into my second trimester -- no calls, no emails, nothing. Then suddenly showed up telling us not to buy anything because she already had it all. And that was our relationship from then on, disappearing acts, emotional distance, and a whole lot of shopping. Then some really nasty things started creeping in, but that mostly happened after I started implementing some basic boundaries.
There is more than one way you can cut someone out of your life. One way you all know: Your loved one tells you not to contact him or her anymore. The other way is more by default. Nothing is ever official, definite, or absolute, but you're out and you know it. Here's this person you want to accept you, and she flat-out ignores you when you try to talk to her, cuts you off, brushes past you without a look, won't answer your e-mails, sneers at you when you try to share things that are important to you. You find out she gossips about you and doesn't even bother to hide it. The only reason she has any contact with you at all is because you have something (or someone) she wants.
I thought having a baby would bring the family together -- stupid me. It didn't. It actually made it obvious that they didn't care about their own son, much less me. They wanted that baby, yeah, but not in any way I could understand. Years ago I had to take a class on recognizing people who preyed on children, and one thing struck me: There can be a lot of surface similarities between good, normal people who enjoy the company of children in a healthy way and predators who want to seduce them for selfish reasons, but the biggest difference right from the beginning is that the good, normal people respect the parents and the predators don't. They undermine the parents and want to separate the child from them. This is true of my in-laws, although as far as I know they are not perverts. There is more than one kind of predator.
When it started to affect my health, I finally cut off my MIL. Thought I was probably a really horrible person to do it, but I felt so bad I had to do something. Basically told her that if she wanted a relationship with her grandchild, she needed to first repair the relationship with her son. This was followed by months of silence, a reconciliation attempt that went horribly wrong, then -- oh, it's basically been a year marked by a whole lot of nothing interspersed with squalid little attempts to get what she wants without having to face the problems. I feel sorry for her, really really really WANT to be nice to her, but I just can't go on with how things were before, and the truth is that neither she nor DH want anything to do with each other. If their relationship isn't important to each other, I don't see why it should be to me, or why my DD should be thrust into it when she doesn't care about that set of relatives anyway. Yes, technically I've cut the whole family off, but what I really think I've done is forced them to face the fact that we were already estranged.
So there you have it. And sorry I ruffled anyone's feathers -- that was truly not my intention.
Vasilisa,
You knew going in to the marriage that the MIL issue would be tough - maybe you had unrealistic expectations of what you could 'fix'? My DIL seemed to carry a cartoon image of me when she dealt with me, one that had nothing to do with who I am. She later told me to leave her alone and stop talking to her so I did. Easier to do that than deal with reality, I guess.
I think when people get married, they should just be nice to the inlaws. Don't try to win them over or figure them out or fix them. Just be nice and polite and set definitely boundaries that are held to.
Quote from: Doe on April 30, 2012, 07:55:01 AM
Vasilisa,
You knew going in to the marriage that the MIL issue would be tough - maybe you had unrealistic expectations of what you could 'fix'? My DIL seemed to carry a cartoon image of me when she dealt with me, one that had nothing to do with who I am. She later told me to leave her alone and stop talking to her so I did. Easier to do that than deal with reality, I guess.
I think when people get married, they should just be nice to the inlaws. Don't try to win them over or figure them out or fix them. Just be nice and polite and set definitely boundaries that are held to.
You're right, of course. I had Hallmark family movie expectations going into an NC-17 situation, but even if it had been a more normal family, I couldn't go in thinking I could change the dynamic. I ended up taking my husband's place in his mother's life and they were both happy to let me do so. I wish I'd realized earlier what was happening and gently pointed it out to both of them, then told them I wasn't going to do it anymore and stepped out without drama. Instead, I saved up my growing resentment and hurt till I reached the breaking point, exploded, and said things that may have been true but probably deepened the wound. I wish I could think of a way to apologize to my MIL for my part without being sucked back into the old situation. The original problem was between her and her son and he's the one who's going to have to reach out to her, or she to him, but I wish I could let her know that I would support this and that even if we can never be friends, we can still treat each other with respect. However, DH is happy not having her in his life.
I can tell you exactly why the MIL/DIL relationship turns contentious (at least in 99 out of every 100 times it does turn contentious): Not enough people ask for then follow my advice. Just think if life were like a giant game of Simon Says but instead of Simon it was Herbal. Someone says or does something you don't like or find hurtful. You ask "Why did/didn't you XYZ?" They say, "Well, I asked Herbal and she said XYZ." You reply, "Oh, you asked Herbal?" They reply, "Yeah, I asked Herbal." You conclude, "Well, I don't understand it, but if Herbal said XYZ that must be the right thing." No need for resentments or animosity.
Seriously, I think Norman Rockwell has a lot to answer for. Bad MIL/DIL relationships have been around forever, but so have bad spousal relationships, parent-child relationships, sibling relationships (look at the first siblings - Cain and Abel, hardly poster children for brotherly love), neighbor relationships, etc.
A bit ago I read a book The Way We Never Were by Stephanie Coontz about the history of the family. We have a lot of assumptions about how things used to be or are supposed to be that just aren't true. Leave It To Beaver and Ozzie and Harriet weren't documentaries. Instead of focusing how things "should be" or how we want them to be, we have to deal with the situation we have. We can't change anyone else, so we have to focus on what we can do to make our own relationships better.
I always cringe a bit when someone comments that MILs have the most to lose. Well, if a DIL is involved in a hurtful MIL/DIL relationship - whether she's a DIL from Hell or the MIL is from Hell or the DS/DH is a schmuck or whatever - that hurtful MIL/DIL relationship usually spills over into the husband-wife relationship. A lot of bad MIL/DIL relationships contribute to divorce. While a MIL may risk loosing her DS/GC, the DIL risks loosing her DH and we shouldn't minimize that, especially when we look at the fallout on the children. I wish the solutions was as simple as my first paragraph.
Quote from: herbalescapes on April 30, 2012, 08:53:40 AM
- that hurtful MIL/DIL relationship usually spills over into the husband-wife relationship. A lot of bad MIL/DIL relationships contribute to divorce. While a MIL may risk loosing her DS/GC, the DIL risks loosing her DH and we shouldn't minimize that, especially when we look at the fallout on the children.
O dear, I hope I'm not guilty of the rift between DS and DIL, that would be bad as ...
and never intended. HONESTLY!
Don't fret about it FS. There may be cases of MIL/DIL relationships straining a marriage, but there is just as many affairs, financial problems, problems in their own relationship that have nothing to do with outside influences. I had a horrible MIL/DIL relationship in my first marriage and it did put strain on us, but we remained married for 20 years. There were problems that had absolutely nothing to do with my horrid MIL that caused our divorce. Don't start second-guessing yourself.
Quote from: Vasilisa on April 30, 2012, 08:11:47 AM
You're right, of course. I had Hallmark family movie expectations going into an NC-17 situation,
I wish I could think of a way to apologize to my MIL for my part without being sucked back into the old situation.
lol about the first one - I get the picture.
About apologizing - I think now that you have more information you could apologize (if you
really want to have her in your life) without being sucked back in. I don't think one relationship should be contingent on another necessarily. You could email pictures without getting together and those pictures would mean the world to your MIL, I imagine.
Our family is an imperfect work in progress - as I mentioned, my DIL cut me off soon after 1st GC was born. DS followed suit, and later wrote a list of conditions that I had to meet in order to be a part of their family. That didn't go over well with me so I haven't complied. However, DS and his brother are in touch. I respect that YS doesn't want to share pictures, etc with me because OS asked him not to. DIL recently wrote to DH to share some news and pictures. I wasn't mentioned but frankly, I don't want to deal with this *&$%(#ed up situation anymore. The pictures were like manna from heaven, though.
If you and your husband agree, I would find a tiny way be in touch with her - teeny weeny, like one picture on email. And keep it simple and short. After a few weeks, send another one. Keep other people out of it. It might have a tremendous effect.
Honestly I think this is a great question. There are so many reasons why MIL/DIL relationships don't work. In spite of what generation, culture, race, or religion we're from MIL/DIL relationships continue to be an age old dilemma. Obviously each woman is going to give her perspective to this question based on her own experiences. Here's mine:
It's very difficult for MIL/DIL to get along (generally speaking) because both women love the same man; both want to be number one in his life. For the first 30 yrs (or so) DM is first in her DS life. DS grows up, leaves the nest, and takes a bride. Next thing you know, DM is no longer number one. Her significance level in DS life has changed dramatically. She no longer gets every b-day, holiday, Sunday dinner. She is no longer the one DS comes to for a home cooked meal, nurturing, advice, etc. This is extremely hurtful for a DM, and rightfully so. She birthed him, raised him, and loved him unconditionally. The boy who used to light up when DM walked in the room now lights up when his DW walks in the room.... DW can be oblivious to DM plight b/c she doesn't understand it. It hasn't happened to her (yet).
I know, I'm making a very general statement. But from my observations and experience I would have to say this is the main reason why MIL/DIL don't get along (or it at least has to be the top three). As I read postings here from MILs it seems the top complaints are DIL FOO, not seeing GC enough, not seeing DS enough, and DIL being distant. What all that boils down IMO, is a MILs hurt feelings of being "downgraded". As such, MIL/DIL don't get along b/c it's not easy to get along with the person who makes you feel that you've been downgraded.
Hi LM-
Personally, I think it's the son who does the downgrading rather than the DIL. If the son is strong enough, he would be able to be a son and be a husband a the same time, imo. Just like he can hold a job and be a DH or be a father and a DH at the same time. I think a secure DIL would be able to allow her DH to have a relationship with his parents if he wanted to. And a secure Mom would be able to acknowledge that a DS has his own life to live.
Good Point Doe!!!
A real man should know how to be a loving husband and son at the same time. And when he's not DIL/MIL is often blame each other.
On the other hand, what's considered a "good son" may differ from person to person. A man can be a good son without putting his DM first (as he did when he was single) OR CAN HE????? Can a son still be a good son if he has his own family unit and puts his wife first and DM last??? Some would say no.
Quote from: lovelymimi on April 30, 2012, 12:41:33 PM
Good Point Doe!!!
A real man should know how to be a loving husband and son at the same time. And when he's not DIL/MIL is often blame each other.
On the other hand, what's considered a "good son" may differ from person to person. A man can be a good son without putting his DM first (as he did when he was single) OR CAN HE????? Can a son still be a good son if he has his own family unit and puts his wife first and DM last??? Some would say no.
Okay, do mothers really expect their sons to put them first? I would consider that unhealthy even in an unmarried man -- unless he was under the age of four.
I love my mother a lot and am fairly close to her -- in fact, she lives with me now because of a disability. But she hasn't come first in a long, long time. Neither has anyone else in my family of origin. As far as I can tell, this is normal.
Hi V.
My mom always came first in my life UNTIL I met my husband (I was 24) sounds pathtic, but true... I'm not sure if my mom 'expected' to come first, but she did. It's that way for a lot of children. Somehow the mom is just the most important person in their life until they get married. Some moms can handle this, some can't...
However, I'm a daughter. Although my mom doesn't come first, she's still the leading lady in my life. Over the years, our relationship as evolved into a friendship. We talk on the phone everyday & visit each other when we can. Altough she no longer comes first, she loves the fact that I have a great husband, and that he takes such good care of me. I tend to think these dynamics are different for DM/DS relationships though.
I certainly don't expect to be first in my Ds's life , he has a wife and daughter , they come first .
what we MIL do want though is to be considered on a regular basis for visits and invites .
After nurturing a family for 30 odd years , we do not expect to thrown on the scrap heap , and this
is where the problems start .
Yes a man should be able to treat his mother with respect , even if he has a wife , why not ?
Quote from: lancaster lady on April 30, 2012, 01:33:21 PM
I certainly don't expect to be first in my Ds's life , he has a wife and daughter , they come first .
what we MIL do want though is to be considered on a regular basis for visits and invites .
After nurturing a family for 30 odd years , we do not expect to thrown on the scrap heap , and this
is where the problems start .
Yes a man should be able to treat his mother with respect , even if he has a wife , why not ?
LL sorry if you've been "thrown on the scrap heap". No one should ever do that to their DM. If this is what you'r DS did does it affect how you feel about you're DIL??
It's water under the bridge now , but when my GD was born that's how I felt .
I refused to let go , and now we are all in a happy place ...thank goodness .
It wasn't my DS it was my DIL who decided I didn't feature in their lives .
I wasn't prepared to give up a relationship with my GD , long story , but we got there eventually.
I'm with LL and in no shape, form or fashion want my Son to consider me first before his wife. I expected him to leave home and start his own life. I wanted to be included in his life, not at the front of it.
That's why we don't generalize here. Every story here is unique and we take each individual story on it's own merit, no matter if that's an MIL or DIL. When you start making general statements, it creates an environment of condemning an entire group based on what some may do, which is where hurtful stereotypes come from, on both sides.
Quote from: Doe on April 30, 2012, 11:49:08 AM
About apologizing - I think now that you have more information you could apologize (if you really want to have her in your life) without being sucked back in. I don't think one relationship should be contingent on another necessarily. You could email pictures without getting together and those pictures would mean the world to your MIL, I imagine.
I really appreciate this suggestion. I wish I knew
what would mean the world to her. I didn't go into a lot of detail in my backstory, but this is a pretty abnormal situation and the woman acts as if she has no feelings and no empathy. That's not just my opinion -- her other DIL (whose marriage she helped destroy, IMO) has also remarked on her apparent lack of emotion. Of course, she could just be really depressed. I certainly would be in her shoes -- emotionally abused as a child by her mother, mean-as-a-snake alcoholic husband (doesn't drink anymore, but still verbally abusive and shockingly selfish), two out of three children both living at home in their 30s because they can't function on their own. I feel sorry for her and am tempted to reach out to her, but no, I honestly don't want her in my life and neither does my DH. I would accept her in my life if he wanted her and she would treat me with respect.
When I say "respect", I'm talking about
very basic things, like not badmouthing me to my husband, not confronting or punishing me every time her daughter gets mad at me, not punishing me because I told her that she couldn't come over on a particular day that she wanted to, actually looking at me and greeting me when she walks into my house, not butting in on my private visits with other people, not opening my mail without permission, that sort of thing. If she respected me in such matters, I'd probably be more tolerant of smaller things, like when I think she goes overboard on buying DD clothes and gifts. It's easier to shrug that off when you're dealing with someone who treats you like an intelligent adult human who has a right to normal boundaries.
I will think about sending pictures. I am still not over it enough to do that, but may in the future. Of course, they would have to be pictures of her son and the house and his projects, not just her GC, although GC is all she would really be interested in, judging from her behavior and comments.
Reading about some mothers having trouble letting go of their sons just makes me sad all over again. If the problem were only that MIL wanted to be number one in her son's life and thought I wasn't good enough for him! It would hurt and be annoying, but I could sort of understand it. She's criticized him a lot to me, but silly stuff, saying "He's not as good a cook as he thinks he is" or "He thinks he can do such and such, but he can't" or "He used to sneak out of the house at night when he was a teenager", but never anything that would account for such coldness. I'd rather have to deal with the fires of an overweaning affection than try to warm up a corpse.
Can any of the GMs here offer an explanation for why the heck you'd even be interested in a GC if you don't want anything to do with your own child who gave you that GC? I mean barring severe personality disturbances and criminal behavior.
I will tell you that I don't get along with my DIL. We are two very different people and if she wasn't my DIL, we wouldn't get along either. Two totally different personalities that clash. Now, I'm speculating here based on what I would do if my Son had remained in contact. If my DIL didn't want to visit, that's ok, but I would have hoped my Son would have kept up our relationship. If that had occurred, then yes, I would have wanted to be in the GC's life. But since he has also chosen to not have anything to do with his family, then I have no expectation whatsoever that I will be part of the GC's life.
I'm saying that to say I would understand a GP wanting to be part of a GC's life if one parent was willing, even if the other wasn't. There would be alot of "if's" with that. If the GP wouldn't ever talk badly about the other parent in front of the child. If the other parent was willing to acknowledge that the GP may not be their cup of tea, but was good with the GC. That would require two adults, agreeing to disagree but yet still showing mutual respect to one another. But in my case, if that was happening already, then I wouldn't be on this forum.
I can't see if the parent chose not to be involved with their own child, how they would have such an expectation of being involved with the GC.
I don't know if my sons ever put me first - if anything, it was the reverse and that habit has taken years for me to unlearn.
When I say a man can be a DH, Son, Father, and provide for a family at the same time, I don't mean to sit at Mom's dinner table every night. That went by the wayside sometime in the teens. I just mean that if he's big enough he can respect all his relationships.
I mean, that's how Jamie Fraser in "The Outlander" series would do it, if his mom was alive. A mom can dream, can't she?
I agree Doe. I think my DH is a wonderful husband, Son, Father, Brother, etc. He plays all the roles very well. I know I come first in his life, but he makes room for everyone else too. I wouldn't have it any other way. I like to think I'm a good wife, Mother, Daughter and Sister. I make time for everyone too. I don't think it has to be either/or.
Personally I think the way a man treats his mom says a lot about how he feels about women in general - my DH is good to his mom, he talks to her frequently, never forgets birthdays/holidays etc, and if we lived closer we'd see her a lot more. I think he's a great DH and a great dad. The men I know who are rude and disrespectful to their moms treat their wives/girlfriends the same way. Things haven't been so great lately between my MIL and I, but before that we got along quite well. And if we hadn't I know he wouldn't have married me because his relationship with his mom is important to him. I hope this is all a temporary blip, but if it's not I'll always try to maintain a relationship with her, even if it's the guarded one I have now.
Doe,
That is exactly what I believe has happened with DS and DIL. It is like she has said all or none at all. :o Her family has become his family, her friends have become his friends. All that he knew and was before is gone...... He has even modified his first name and now has everyone (from what I have heard) calling him. A whole new him.
You have just described my DS. He lost all his friends at his dw's request , or she made life so difficult for them , they left on their own accord . That's what she wished for me too , however she hadn't.bargained for this rottweiler of a MIL ! Why ? I think she was so insecure she wanted my DS exclusively , then the same for my GD when she came along. Rather than dwell on the past , I look forward and enjoy my GD. Not all plain sailing, but worth working at .
The orignial question is Why can't MILs and DILs get along?
Once again, there are many reasons. But, IMO one of the main reasons is the man in the middle. If he is unable to balance his life with DW and DM (make them both feel loved) it will have an impact on they way MIL/DIL feel about each other.
Personally, I've always hated it when women fight over men and blame each other for something a man does (or doesn't do) but that's the way it is. If a man cuts off his family and freinds, fails to be there for those whom have been there for him...HE should be the blame. Unless DW put a gun to his head and made him do it, I don't see why MIL/DIL should have these catfights with each other.
Quote from: lovelymimi on May 01, 2012, 04:06:12 AM
The orignial question is Why can't MILs and DILs get along?
Once again, there are many reasons. But, IMO one of the main reasons is the man in the middle. If he is unable to balance his life with DW and DM (make them both feel loved) it will have an impact on they way MIL/DIL feel about each other.
This is very common, I think, but doesn't describe my situation. I have never yet found anyone who has this problem, i.e., MIL wants nothing to do with her child, is only interested in having grandchildren.
Just a thought. All of us act differently in situations where we feel uncomfortable. I had this experience when I lived close to DS and his family. I behaved out of character. Even my DH couldn't quite make sense of what had got into me at that time, luckily he was patient and believed in me getting back to my normal self.
All I'm saying is, could we be misinterpreting behaviour by people who are in an environment where they just don't know how to function and everything they do somehow comes out wrong. This is a bad situation to be in especially when surrounded by family. Just a thought - may not apply to your situation, certainly applied to mine. It's taken me a long time to get to this insight. ;)
Good point Fs , however my DIL was charm itself until my gd arrived . I don't think we will ever crack this conundrum (sp) . People are too complicated to follow any particular pattern , or belong to any group . That's life .
Quote from: forever spring on May 01, 2012, 04:54:24 AM
Just a thought. All of us act differently in situations where we feel uncomfortable. I had this experience when I lived close to DS and his family. I behaved out of character. Even my DH couldn't quite make sense of what had got into me at that time, luckily he was patient and believed in me getting back to my normal self.
FS, this gives me hope for my own situation with my MIL. I seriously hope things will go back to the way they were, but right now I'm still sorta guarded. Grandkids seems to be such a catalyst for things to go wrong - you'd think it would bring everyone together. Having a baby has changed me, and having a grandbaby has changed her. Maybe it's a natural consequence that our boundaries need to be revisited and re-established.
In many situations people just don't realize how their behavior is affecting other people. It makes sense that the arrival of a new baby would create in a situation in which everyone needs to adjust. One problem could be that pregnant women think they are going to be a certain way and that completely changes when they have the baby. A woman who thought she would follow a regimented schedule of lightheartedly leave her baby in the care of its grandmother for a few hours discovers when the baby is born that she just can't do that, for instance. Other family members may be confused and hurt because they were looking forward to baby-time and don't understand the new mother's attitude. She is probably just as confused by her feelings as they are and feels guilty and defensive.
That is all so true, I just wish I had known this when I was in the situation. I described myself as 'MIL from hell' in an earlier reply, and I think I was even though I never wanted to be such a person. I think, I lacked empathy with my DIL at that time which is a horrible thought because I never want to hurt anybody. Good to hear what everybody is saying on this thread, it helps me become more and more aware of what's gone wrong. Of course DS leaving and causing a lot more pain makes me feel even worse. Now I'm not sure
where to go from here. I would like to approach xDIL and let her know how terribly sorry I am about what happened but I'm so afraid I might get it all wrong again. My intuition is not much help at the moment. I try to listen to it but it's silent on this front. I guess I'm just confused and have to be patient and be open it I get a sign from her.
I'm with Pooh, LL, Beth et al who stated that they have no desire to come first in their DS's lives. I don't want to either. I especially don't want to be as enmeshed as DS, DIL & DIL's FOO are - yuck! What I want is to be treated civilly and considered worthy of a visit or phone call more often. I don't like being treated like I'm "on the scrap heap" and only given patronizing little crumbs of attention when they want something from me. I want my family life w/ all its ups, downs, experiences, successes and failures to count for something; it was a big chunk of my life.
Like others, my DS has been fully absorbed by DIL's FOO. New values, new attitude. The past (thus my past too!) has been eradicated.
Re: the opinion that MILs have the most to lose & thus the most motivation to work on maintaining a civil relationship w/DIL -
I am the one who keeps saying it, and I stand by it (as a two-time DIL & one-time MIL) although I understand the cringe factor. Speaking only from my own experiences, losing a relationship w/an AC, IMO, is very devastating & can take way longer to "get over." All the years spent raising this kid, all the effort we put into getting him launched, all the memories - I feel as if they mean nothing. It was a major portion of our family's life that is now reduced to being unimiportant. Since we have no GC, and I can only imagine the heartbreak that goes along with that additional loss. Whereas when I left my first DH due to his enmeshment w/his FOO, I eventually got over it. I met a great guy and moved on. I can't very well meet a great new DS and move on, can I?
So, I maintain that my motivation to keep DIL happy is way more than her motivation to keep me happy because, in my case, I have more to lose. To that end, when around DS/DIL I have turned into a blank slate w/no emotions, no opinions, no personality, no past, no needs, no wants. I miss my son, miss our easy communication, miss having fun family times whereas DIL & her FOO still share those things, and would continue to do so no matter what happened.
Not all DIL/MIL/DS situations come from the same dynamics. We can read everyone's stories and if we find something that points out a possible flaw in our own behavior, we can work to better ourselves.
(My flaw is that I'm not DIL's DM, lol.)
As a MIL, I'd have to disagree, which is why generalizations are probably not the best. I feel that losing my husband would be worse than losing my children and GKs, especially in an outright cutoff, which I have been through (luckily, temporarily). I took some solace in the fact that my son was making his own adult decisions, and I knew he was meant to move on from me eventually. My DH leaving for whatever reason (MIL/death/actual other woman/just doesn't love me anymore), would be worse for me, because he signed up to be with me for the long haul and I am somewhat invested and reliant on that promise. He is the only one I'm counting on, and I do realize that even that expectation has a possibility of not being met. My kids promised me nothing, and they are here based on my decision to have them and raise them. To that effect, my expectations for them have been fulfilled.
As a grandmother, while not seing my GKs was hard (it IS hard, even when things are hunky-dory), my relationship with my child comes first and foremost, after the one with my DH. Having fun with them is a privilege that when I have the opportunity to enjoy, my cup runneth over, but that's it. I don't believe that is time that I am necessarily entitled to, given that any one of them can pick up and move halfway around the worst. I don't believe that is time I am necessarily entitled to later on when the GKs decide that they have plenty of other interests than time spent with me.
This idea that generally speaking, one party has it worse than another doesn't seem helpful given that circumstances vary a great deal and we can not possibly know what someone, MIL or DIL or any other party is going through. I can't even say the man in the middle really suffers most of all because maybe he doesn't. Maybe he just takes this at face-value that women are not get along and that it's not his problem. Maybe he really is sad that his old and new family can't come together more cohesively, buand has no idea how to fix it. Who really knows? It is highly dependent on the person going through it at the time , not the particular role they fulfill in the dynamic.
Lovelymimi, I do agree with you. I know my DS has to feel caught between us. I do blame him for allowing our relationship to die. Here's what I did that caused it, and it's not blaming DIL, but it was my downfall because of our differences. It's going to sound like I am saying my DIL is horrible, but it's just the truth. DIL was raised by a Mother and Father that gave her everything she wanted. She is used to getting things her way, all the time. She was used to having people do everything for her. When they started dating and she was at my house, 6-7 days a week, she expected to be waited on. I cooked, she would leave her plate and coke cans sitting in the living room and leave. If there was 5 of us there and we were all deciding where to go for dinner and 4 wanted Mexican (which she eats) and she wanted McDonalds, she would get mad if we went to eat Mexican. In the beginning, I offered to take her through McDonalds and pick something up to take with us, but she would say no and pout through the entire dinner. If we were going shopping and she didn't want to go, but DS did, she would go and pout the entire time. I tried very hard to be accommodating and do things she wanted to do as well. I picked up her garbage and dishes for awhile, although everyone else would carry their own stuff into the kitchen. My DS's friends were also experiencing the same things and getting tired of it, so they started by trying to talk to DS about it, and ended up just not inviting them to come around any longer. I finally talked to my DS about things and told him that I wasn't picking up after her any longer...that he could because she was his guest. I told him that I wasn't going out of my way with drive-thrus, etc. when she wasn't grateful, just pouted. Every one in my family is this way. We pick up after ourselves and help clean up.
This was my downfall. This is how DIL is and that is how she was raised. Her parents are still that way to this day and will do whatever she wants. That's what she knows. I am not that way and didn't raise my Sons that way so after awhile, I put my foot down. DS went back and told DIL that she needed to start picking up her own dishes, not pouting about majority decisions, etc. Of course, I'm positive it was put to her "Mom says..." Which I did. That started our downward spiral. That's ok. I understand that she and I are totally different. I was still always civil to her, but the damage was done and she wouldn't even speak to me much after that.
So I do blame him. Not for telling her, but for not standing up and saying, "Ok, I love her and I'll put up with it, so I guess I need to pick up her dishes and make sure I make arrangements to get her what she wants to eat." Instead, he chose the easy way out. Instead of figuring out how to make it all work, he decided that if he removed our family from the equation, he didn't have to listen to us or her about any of it. So he quit coming around any of us and migrated towards her family. She's happier around them because they do wait on her. He's happier around them because then he doesn't have to deal with any of it. He took the lazy way out. Did he choose her and he should look after her interests? Absolutely. I get it.
Do I blame her as well? Yes. I feel I gave on my end on some things, but she didn't give at all. I knew she didn't like to cook, so I didn't ask or expect her help. I knew she didn't like doing dishes, so I didn't ask or expect it. I went out of my way when we went somewhere to try to accomadate what she wanted for a long time. I am a compromising person, but I am not someone's maid or slave. I moved out of my personality zone (because my personality helps cook and clean up when I am at someone's house all the time) to make some compromises. I feel she wouldn't move an inch out of hers. Maybe she isn't capable of it, I don't know. I know I was only capable of so much too.
Could I have avoided all of this by just doing whatever she wanted and waiting on her? I'm sure I could have because that's what she's used to. I honestly couldn't do it because I couldn't see myself doing all that for the rest of my life. And know, if they were coming about now every few months for dinner, I wouldn't mind waiting on her. This was all in the beginning when she was at my house all the time. Knowing now that they would get married two years later, maybe I could have sucked it up for that long. I can second guess myself all day long. I do recognize that she is who she is, and I am who I am.
So I do blame my DS. I think that if he had set his boundaries in the beginning, with her, much of this would have been avoided. I think if he would have said, "I love you the way you are, but I still love my family. I know they are different than yours, so I don't expect you to go over there if you don't want but I'm going to run over to see them a few times a year." He could still text or call every once in a while. He could go see my Mother, who lives 5 minutes from him, every once in a while who never had those conversations with him or never a cross word to DIL. That's his doing, his choice and on him.
I agree with everything silver spring said, although it must be like a death in the family to lose your adult child's love altogether when he or she marries. But yes, you rightly expect your spouse to stand by you, whereas you raise your children to leave.
That said, if anyone or anything hurt my child, that would tear me up more than anything happening to my husband -- maybe I'm inconsistent.
Pooh, you are perfectly reasonable in your desires and expectations.
I'm not sure I agree that "that's just the way she is". Being prissy and nondomestic might be just the way she is, but being rude, selfish, and inconsiderate are character flaws that she needs to work on. It might not be her fault she ended up that way with parents who spoiled her, but she chooses to continue even at the expense of alienating everyone important to her husband.
But who knows? Maybe when the shine is off the apple, he'll start coming around again.
I don't think that's inconsistent, Vasilisa. While I didn't say it outright, I certainly wouldn't want anyone to hurt my kids. There is still a woman, now 30, who I still don't speakwith in passing because she threw pinecones at my kid when she was younger (among lots of other bad things). Small kid stuff, but I certainly am nothing if not protective.
Thank you. One of the major lessons I have learned here is that those are my expectations of how someone should be. I can't expect her to be another way. I also know that my DS was always lazy. He had to be reminded to do his chores, etc. He didn't give me flack, but he also didn't go out of his way to do anything extra. So I'm sure it is very nice for him to have people that let him be lazy.
I will say that my YS, while he was in went to dinner at his GP's (Father's side) and my OS showed up for it. He told my YS about the pregnancy and made several off-hand comments about why DIL didn't come with him. YS said his comments were things like, "She was tired. I'm in for a long 9 months because she's using the pregnancy as an excuse to not do anything but lay around. Her Mother is waiting on her hand and foot." Ys said that he got the feeling that OS was having a hard time. Now part of me was thinking, I know how she was, so I bet it is worse now that she's pregnant. The other part was thinking, his lazy butt is having to do everything now and he doesn't like it...Lol.
So, I guess when I was reading everything, I was thinking...I know why, in my case, MIL/DIL don't get along. I also know that we could by simply agreeing to be different and a little compromise on both sides. I can do that, she hasn't shown that she is willing. I also can honestly say, I will not be a party to a divorce. I have let go of DS, completely. It's the hardest thing I have ever had to do because I still want to be part of his life. I still love him and always will but I felt the most loving thing I could do for him, is to stay out of his life. It's his life to live and his choice to make.
And by the way, I am trying to live my life that way. Some of the hardest choices we make in life, are the right ones.
You're right, it isn't a contest..and every situation is different.
After all these years, I wouldn't want to lose my DH due to any reason, but I would hope it wouldn't be due to IL issues at this stage, lol. I was talking about those IL issues that come up in the first year or so of marriage, not losing a DH after many years of marriage.
My point, which keeps getting buried in the other stuff, is that my DIL has no reason to try to get along with me. She knows my DH & I support her marriage to DS, she has no emotional investment in us, & she has a perfectly good FOO of her own.
Copied from my earlier post: "So, I maintain that my motivation to keep DIL happy is way more than her motivation to keep me happy because, in my case, I have more to lose."
Pooh, It has been one of the hardest things for me and my DH esp. to let go and let DS live his life the way he is living it even though it doesn't include his FOO. And he does live within 5 minutes of us. I do agree whole heartily that my DS is to blame too because if he had stood up and told DIL that he still wanted to see his family even though she may not have wanted to come with him to see us I believe that this all would not have happened. I tell you this, if DS was a cake she would gobble him up. But I believe she had this in mind from the start of their relationship and has managed to keep him so busy that he doesn't have time to think about anything or let his conscience bother him. I am beginning to wonder if he even has one anymore. What really surprises me is that he has even taken on her attitude of superiority. I taught my DC know who you are and remember where you have come from..... no matter what the day may bring. It is like everything has flown out the window including his brain. :-[
Same thing here Beth. Again, not blaming DIL because he allowed it to happen and participated, but she did the same thing. It was like when they were dating, she couldn't stand for him to pay attention to anyone but her. It wasn't just me, but his friends, co-workers, family, etc. He couldn't go do anything without her calling 20 times or she would just show up when he was with 3-4 other guys doing something. She bought golf clubs because he would go once a month and play golf with his GP, Dad and brother. Told him now she could go too. So it truly wasn't a female competing against another female (me), it was the males too.
I think she griped/whined/pouted (don't know what to call it) about him going to do anything, or would be so intrusive when he did, that he found it easier to just not go and do anything, thus alienating everyone. She was happy because he spent all his time with her, and he was happier because it made it more peaceful on him. Again, his fault for not doing anything about it. I tried to talk to him about it, in a good way, telling him that spending time with her was very important, but that they both needed time apart as well, with friends, playing golf, whatever. I've told this before, but she had no friends. To the point, her maid of honor in their wedding was a co-worker she had known for 3 months. I think because of that, her Mother is the only person she had to do anything with, that did everything she wanted, until him. Now it's Mom and him. Her Dad is a really nice man, but is quiet and just goes along with whatever Mom wants. They've been married for 30 years, so I'm sure he's used to it.
I feel bad for her, although she has created it herself, as it must have been very lonely not having friends.
Quote from: Vasilisa on May 01, 2012, 10:46:29 AM
Being prissy and nondomestic might be just the way she is, but being rude, selfish, and inconsiderate are character flaws that she needs to work on.
The problem is that, while we may feel she needs to work on them, she may not. So the end result is that "that's just the way she is", because we have zero control over whether and how successfully she works on those things that we classify as her character flaws. In general, people are what they are, and all we can do is focus on ourselves and our own responses to them. Doesn't mean we have to put up with their behaviors, just that it's not helpful to ourselves to expect that they will change them. KWIM?
Quote from: elsieshaye on May 02, 2012, 07:11:45 AM
Quote from: Vasilisa on May 01, 2012, 10:46:29 AM
Being prissy and nondomestic might be just the way she is, but being rude, selfish, and inconsiderate are character flaws that she needs to work on.
The problem is that, while we may feel she needs to work on them, she may not. So the end result is that "that's just the way she is", because we have zero control over whether and how successfully she works on those things that we classify as her character flaws. In general, people are what they are, and all we can do is focus on ourselves and our own responses to them. Doesn't mean we have to put up with their behaviors, just that it's not helpful to ourselves to expect that they will change them. KWIM?
Ah, okay. I'm so used to hearing people say as an excuse for their own or someone else's problematic behavior "that's just the way I am/he or she is", and what they mean is that I have no choice but to accept behavior that is a big problem for me. I do understand that we can't change people, although I have come to see that it is important to tell people what we need from them so that they at least have a chance. My own big regret with my in-laws is that I was so timid and unsure of myself that I didn't feel as though I could say, "It hurts me when you do __" or "I'm sorry, but this doesn't work for me" or even "I want __". I thought I just had to take it, and of course they lashed out when after several years I started laying down boundaries and confronting them
Thanks for your insight.
I agree, V. It's very important to be able to say up front what you need, and then the other person has a choice about whether they will or won't accommodate that. I'm a people pleaser by nature, and seem to still have the fundamental belief that I'm not allowed to need things, never mind ask for them, so this is a work in progress for me.
How true that speaking up and asking for what we want is important, but IMO it's not always in our best interest. You have to be ready to accept the consequences. I would speak up and let my DS/DIL know that "it hurts me when ___" or "I want___" but it's quite possible that would be the last conversation we'd have.
Don't want to be the cause of DS/DIL cutting us off, so I will continue in silence. I won't accept rudeness, but I won't speak up about my desire for more time/consideration.
Quote from: Pen on May 02, 2012, 10:04:27 AM
How true that speaking up and asking for what we want is important, but IMO it's not always in our best interest. You have to be ready to accept the consequences. I would speak up and let my DS/DIL know that "it hurts me when ___" or "I want___" but it's quite possible that would be the last conversation we'd have.
Don't want to be the cause of DS/DIL cutting us off, so I will continue in silence. I won't accept rudeness, but I won't speak up about my desire for more time/consideration.
I understand what you mean. In my case, I originally wanted a nice family relationship with the in-laws, but after six years, I realized that probably wouldn't be possible without extensive therapy or some deus ex machina action. And after I came to that conclusion, I was in the position of having something they wanted, while they had nothing I wanted. Therefore I didn't need to put up with their crap mountain anymore. For you, I concede, it is different.
Well this was an interesting read and welcome Vasilia!
I'm with the others who can't classify or make a generalization. One thing I've learned since being here is that every situation is different. I think there may be some commonalities but the personalities in play are just as important.
One thing I noticed reading here is that there are some people who, for whatever reason, did not ever seem interested in the relationship with the other party. It can be MIL or DIL. I think my situation is one of those, I think my MIL end goal is to have DH stay exactly the same as he was as a child. Over the years she has shown over and over her anger and rage that he does not have same young child relationship with her and I think she defines herself by being a Mother.
I was just an add on. Someone else to make her feel party. Another doll to sit at her tea party. Not a real person with different thoughts, feelings and opinions. So my thoughts, feelings and opinions never counted. What counted is what I could do for her, if I could make DH visit more, make him give her more attention, better presents etc. I was not a real person to establish a relationship with, just a proxy. So if she felt good with DH, I was tolerated. If DH let her down in some way, I was not tolerated. I'm expendable.
I think this is a common theme that I've read on the board but by no means the story of everyone.
I'm confused about why my sons are so willing to let their wives be in control, going along w whatever the wife wants; they didn't learn that from their father! DH was and still is assertive about what he wants, never did tolerate being told what to do, has some temper, will take a lot from people but doesn't let himself be pushed around (he was and is good to them and to me; just not a pushover; maybe an old-fashioned type guy.)
I, however, was passive and would accept his decisions (I've become more assertive w him w age!) Maybe our sons got the "accepting" nature from me?! Someone suggested that to me; they sure didn't marry someone "like dear old mom" as the song goes.
One son did change w marriage; becoming reclusive from the beginning, always defending wife's secretive nature (I learned later it was abusive, mentally); he wasn't submissive before; it took years for him to leave her although he is still very kind in his talk of her. He's not a critical person at all, though.
Other son was always submissive to his serious gfs which explains why he accepted his wife's "my way or no way" from the beginning. Her attachment to her FOO (a very codependent family) prevented any holidays w us;I finally spoke to ds & he was surprised; (he had said she said the girl always wins & I think thought it was cute (she's the princess type, used to getting her way.) Now he is aware of the holiday thing & we do get some weekends; we don't fight it;she even acknowledges it, which helps the hurt; they didn't think we minded?! It became the "squeaky wheel" and dh and I had been too accommodating.
Like yours, Pen, our son does tend to agree w what his wife says/does, defends her even though we're careful not to criticize (he's catching on and does make remarks which she ignores); they both make excuses when their children misbehave, but dh and I are old-school and they read the books, ya know! We bite our tongues bc we don't want to lose what we have; we all get along though dil is snippy (with everyone); I'm in the practice of "doesn't bother me."
DH is hurt by son's not listening to his advice and the wife's and children's behavior but doesn't ruminate or try to figure it out; I'm trying.
Yes, son should be more assertive in saying, we're going to spend more holidays w MY folks; he could....so I don't blame dil as much as I did (in her FOO, all the women rule....)It's still our son who could insist, who is starting to understand he is in for a lot, but it's up to him.
Sons sometimes will do what they must to make wives happy, even when they do sometimes stop to understand inequities; life can be pretty unhappy at home if he rebels; my dh is much less sensitive to my moods and I don't demand.....so guess son has my nature, darn it!
Someone said that the relationships between MILs and DILs have never been easy.
My mother was critical, mildly, of both her MIL and DIL but her dil was great to her and Mother did share holidays, etc. Both my father and brother helped their mothers/fathers till death, not neglecting them. (I wasn't prepared for this conflict to happen to me, being the more neglected parent.)
But although it's difficult, I think most tried to keep a peace, maybe out of necessity. In some cultures the MIL ruled and the new bride had to endure her mistreatment. Not easy. In some farm or town families, still today the bride moves close to her ILs bc her husband is in the family business or they are just in constant proximity.
Maybe there was a lot of silent suffering....
In my case it was simply that no one was open and honest about what was bothering them. I wish my DIL had come to me in the early years of their marriage and told me (gentley) what it was I was doing to upset her, instead of turning to an internet message board. Of course the advise she received was from well meaning people hearing only her side of the story. When it finally got so uncomfortable for us to be together, instead of going to her and asking what was bothering her, I went to my son and asked him. Well of course he didn't have the heart to tell me the truth and simply kept saying "It's not you, it's me" By that time, it very well may have been him as everything she regarded as a flaw in him could be directly attributed to me and how he was parented. So yes... I became colateral damage, but now that I have her "writings" I can understand (well maybe not understand because most things were pretty trivial) where she was coming from and her line of thinking. It's so sad that this entire fiasco could have been avoided by open communication on both parts. Unfortunately, most times we expect the other party to KNOW what it is that is up our craw rather than tell them, as that can be uncomfortable. Both parties need a vested interest in salvaging the relationship. She does not have that. She is very happy with her nuclear family and her FOO. DH's family has become disposible as she really sees no need for us.
Lillycache, I just posted this in the other thread but it sounds like maybe she can't communicate that way. I know some of my friends rely on their husbands to smooth waters with his family and be the liason, perhaps she was expecting that too? Just like how you went to DS (and I understand your reasoning for this.) I don't know but I do know, it's not you. You tried.
Quote from: Lillycache on May 08, 2012, 05:02:19 AM
In my case it was simply that no one was open and honest about what was bothering them. . . . . . . . So yes... I became colateral damage, but now that I have her "writings" I can understand (well maybe not understand because most things were pretty trivial) where she was coming from and her line of thinking. It's so sad that this entire fiasco could have been avoided by open communication on both parts. . . . . .
Hi - I've been reading for a long time, finally thought I'd throw in a comment. I understand where Lilly is coming from - but when a MIL on these boards is tempted to try to talk things out with a disinterested or seemingly rude DIL, I would estimate that 99% of the advice is to NOT do so - but to stay silent in order to not "lose" the son. So it seems to be a dilemma - don't rock the boat, stay quiet - just accept that "that's the way she is. . . it is son's choice. . . move on, etc" Then after years of no one being open about what was bothering them - it's too late to repair the relationship.
Is there
ever a time when this forum recommends trying to clear the air with DIL and son? Not in confrontational manner, but in order to clear the air and not let hurts fester?
Just wondering.
Quote from: Monroe on May 08, 2012, 07:45:09 AM
Quote from: Lillycache on May 08, 2012, 05:02:19 AM
Is there ever a time when this forum recommends trying to clear the air with DIL and son? Not in confrontational manner, but in order to clear the air and not let hurts fester?
Just wondering.
I have been wondering the same thing myself. There was a generalization made that younger generations are more passive aggressive than previous ones recently. I don't think this is true (and I'm pushing 60), but I do believe that this skirt under the rug idea about feelings lends itself to passive aggression, which ultimately keeps fueling a hurt and making it worse. Minor things get blown out proportion...then lifestyle choices, food preparation, gifts, all become a point of contention.
I think the key is being prepared to speak up about your feelings, without expecting the behavior to change, and perhaps recognize that while you have a fear of losing a relationship with your child, this may not be the case.
Speaking up in an adult fashion keeps you true to yourself and sets your boundaries. It also prevents things festering beyond repair. Most times, the discomfort is immediately worse (because it is felt by both parties), but many times, that allows both parties to move on. No one but you is going to look out for your own best interest, so staying silent about it doesn't seem helpful.
Quote from: Monroe on May 08, 2012, 07:45:09 AM
Quote from: Lillycache on May 08, 2012, 05:02:19 AM
In my case it was simply that no one was open and honest about what was bothering them. . . . . . . . So yes... I became colateral damage, but now that I have her "writings" I can understand (well maybe not understand because most things were pretty trivial) where she was coming from and her line of thinking. It's so sad that this entire fiasco could have been avoided by open communication on both parts. . . . . .
Hi - I've been reading for a long time, finally thought I'd throw in a comment. I understand where Lilly is coming from - but when a MIL on these boards is tempted to try to talk things out with a disinterested or seemingly rude DIL, I would estimate that 99% of the advice is to NOT do so - but to stay silent in order to not "lose" the son. So it seems to be a dilemma - don't rock the boat, stay quiet - just accept that "that's the way she is. . . it is son's choice. . . move on, etc" Then after years of no one being open about what was bothering them - it's too late to repair the relationship.
Is there ever a time when this forum recommends trying to clear the air with DIL and son? Not in confrontational manner, but in order to clear the air and not let hurts fester?
Just wondering.
Welcome Monroe :)
Please read the topics in the category Open Me First if you haven't already done so. We ask all members to do this not b/c there is anything wrong with your post.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by your question. WWU doesn't have a list of recommendations, we just have posters who post their own thoughts, experiences and opinions. In this case, a lot of our members have posted their experience with talking to someone as a MIL or DIL and how it didn't work out for them. We do have a couple posters where talking it out did work, maybe try reading around some more. WWU doesn't have a consensus on issues, we just provide a place for posters to discuss their own experiences and opinions.
Quote from: Monroe on May 08, 2012, 07:45:09 AM
Quote from: Lillycache on May 08, 2012, 05:02:19 AM
In my case it was simply that no one was open and honest about what was bothering them. . . . . . . . So yes... I became colateral damage, but now that I have her "writings" I can understand (well maybe not understand because most things were pretty trivial) where she was coming from and her line of thinking. It's so sad that this entire fiasco could have been avoided by open communication on both parts. . . . . .
Hi - I've been reading for a long time, finally thought I'd throw in a comment. I understand where Lilly is coming from - but when a MIL on these boards is tempted to try to talk things out with a disinterested or seemingly rude DIL, I would estimate that 99% of the advice is to NOT do so - but to stay silent in order to not "lose" the son. So it seems to be a dilemma - don't rock the boat, stay quiet - just accept that "that's the way she is. . . it is son's choice. . . move on, etc" Then after years of no one being open about what was bothering them - it's too late to repair the relationship.
Is there ever a time when this forum recommends trying to clear the air with DIL and son? Not in confrontational manner, but in order to clear the air and not let hurts fester?
Just wondering.
I'm afraid that by the time people feel the need to vent or seek advise on a message board, they are already at their wits end and the relationship is pretty much in tatters. It seems to be human nature to go with the flow until it becomes too uncomfortable and by that time you are drowning.
I am still tempted to ask DS for a one on one conversation with me, without the kids around. Perhaps we can do to lunch or dinner. I have so much more information now. I can do so much more explaining and questioning now that I am not so much in the dark and know what HE has been going through all these years. I shudder to think of it. I know that they were always fighting about me. I know they fought in the car everytime they came to my house. I felt so uncomfortable and didn't understand what was going on. My son may be uncomfortable now seeing me. I haven't heard from him in a month, although our last visit was very pleasant and upbeat. (I gave him a generous birthday gift) I'm pretty sure he will call on Mother's Day. If he doesn't, I am thinking of calling him and asking for this meeting. What harm can it do. It will clear up things between DS and myself.. Perhaps he may take it back to DIL and I can get some things cleared up with her. At this point all I want is to be able to see my DS and his kids. However, I would like to be included in life events like future graduations and weddings.. My hope is to get to a point where we can be in the same room even if we do not interact other than to maintain social politeness.
QuoteSpeaking up in an adult fashion keeps you true to yourself and sets your boundaries. It also prevents things festering beyond repair.
I spoke up once - and my DIL never spoke to me again. Actually, she asked me to babysit and I said "no" (had another commitment which I was unable to break). Many of the MILs I know are afraid to say "no" and my story is an example of "why".
Prior to that, our DIL and son sat my husband and me down to explain our "faults". Our view was never considered - we were wrong, wrong, wrong. I tried to explain our situation; my husband sat and cried. We gave and gave and gave - it was never enough. End of story - we pulled out (actually shoved out) of the relationship (physically and financially, unfortunately not emotionally) and the marriage dissolved in less than one year. If only we had known earlier - but, we were from the generation that it was up to us to "fix" it - after all, we were the "adults" and we told that again and again. Things are gradually getting better with our son but damage has been done. How I wish I knew then what I know now ....
I was cutoff for about a year when I said that I was hurt that they cancelled plans with us for a very important event (DD's wedding). Looking back, I am still glad that I spoke up because they at least knew where I stood and could always trust me to be honest with them. Yes, it is their life to do as they wish and they certainly don't need to change plans based on my feelings, but the feelings were there and valid nonetheless. I wasn't exactly validated, but I think keeping it all in would have been more hurtful to myself. I got to voice my hurt, assemble some closure that way, and move on. We are in a much better place now, and they know I won't pick over holidays or dinners, but I have set the expectation that big major events are to be attended.
Quote from: pam1 on May 08, 2012, 08:00:38 AM
WWU doesn't have a list of recommendations, we just have posters who post their own thoughts, experiences and opinions. In this case, a lot of our members have posted their experience with talking to someone as a MIL or DIL and how it didn't work out for them. We do have a couple posters where talking it out did work, maybe try reading around some more. WWU doesn't have a consensus on issues, we just provide a place for posters to discuss their own experiences and opinions.
Did not mean to imply that WWW had a position. I meant that 99% of posters (not the website itself) would seem to advise a certain course of action. Apologies.
Monroe, your question is valid and your position is reasonable - however, many of us are not dealing with reasonable people. As MILs many of us know we can be cut off for the silliest things, and if we still want to see our DS/GC we sense that we must swallow our pride & our feelings. By the time it gets really bad we've swallowed so much we're sunk.
I'm trying to figure out when I first could have spoken up? Maybe I should have called DIL out when she criticized our home, our childrearing methods, our careers, our FOOs, our looks, our clothes, our ages, our community, our friends, our hobbies, our decor, etc. Instead I chalked it up to her rudeness and poor upbringing and didn't express my hurt feelings. Should I have called a family meeting when DIL told DS she hated us, that we'd done nothing wrong but she/her FOO simply hated who we were? Instead we put it back on DS, told him his marriage came first now and he had to straighten things out. Had I mentioned anything to DIL, she would have been furious to find out DS had talked about her to us.
I thought we were doing all the right things to support DS/DIL's marriage and that we'd somehow be given points for that. Anyway, that's why I never brought any of this to light, can't speak for the other MILs who've stayed silent.
Hi Monroe and Welcome .
No apology necessary , you were just asking a question .
Most of the replies come from our members own experience and their own outcome .
A lot depends on the circumstances , the individual personalities , also how the relationship stands
at the time , each one is entirely different .
We can suggest different ideas on how to tackle problems , but in the end it's up to each person
how they proceed .
If you read my history on this forum , and that will take forever ! You will see I am one of the
MIL who would not lie down and die ! lol
I fought for a relationship with my GD and consequently my DIL .
My DS was never in question as we have always been close .
However to continue that relationship I had to be able to get along with his family .
It took a while and a lot of heartache and tears , however I now enjoy a close relationship
with my GD and a respectful one with my DIL .
Some work out some don't , as I said depends on the individuals involved .
This site was a godsend for me at a very dark time , we all need friends we can call
on in times of stress and usually those close to us are the ones causing the stress .
The ladies here understand and never question who or what we are , they are here 24/7
to talk and help .
I don't know of anywhere else we could get this without costing a fortune , and you know
I really don't think any counsellors would be any better .
So stay with us , I hope you will be able to contribute and help to build on what is already
a wonderful place .
sending love to Luise , the founder ........ :-*
Quote from: Monroe on May 08, 2012, 08:44:29 AM
Quote from: pam1 on May 08, 2012, 08:00:38 AM
WWU doesn't have a list of recommendations, we just have posters who post their own thoughts, experiences and opinions. In this case, a lot of our members have posted their experience with talking to someone as a MIL or DIL and how it didn't work out for them. We do have a couple posters where talking it out did work, maybe try reading around some more. WWU doesn't have a consensus on issues, we just provide a place for posters to discuss their own experiences and opinions.
Did not mean to imply that WWW had a position. I meant that 99% of posters (not the website itself) would seem to advise a certain course of action. Apologies.
No need for apologies :) Glad you found us!
Quote from: Silver Spring on May 08, 2012, 07:56:13 AM
Quote from: Monroe on May 08, 2012, 07:45:09 AM
Quote from: Lillycache on May 08, 2012, 05:02:19 AM
Is there ever a time when this forum recommends trying to clear the air with DIL and son? Not in confrontational manner, but in order to clear the air and not let hurts fester?
Just wondering.
I have been wondering the same thing myself. There was a generalization made that younger generations are more passive aggressive than previous ones recently. I don't think this is true (and I'm pushing 60), but I do believe that this skirt under the rug idea about feelings lends itself to passive aggression, which ultimately keeps fueling a hurt and making it worse. Minor things get blown out proportion...then lifestyle choices, food preparation, gifts, all become a point of contention.
I think the key is being prepared to speak up about your feelings, without expecting the behavior to change, and perhaps recognize that while you have a fear of losing a relationship with your child, this may not be the case.
Speaking up in an adult fashion keeps you true to yourself and sets your boundaries. It also prevents things festering beyond repair. Most times, the discomfort is immediately worse (because it is felt by both parties), but many times, that allows both parties to move on. No one but you is going to look out for your own best interest, so staying silent about it doesn't seem helpful.
I'm the one who made the comment about passive aggressiveness. I can't remember how I worded it, but what I meant was not that people are more passive aggressive now but that I think the prevailing culture is, or maybe subtly encourages it. It looks to me as though two or three generations ago, there were more clearly identified roles and a certain standard of etiquette to which decent people were expected to adhere. I think people knew what was expected of them, which wasn't so great in certain ways, but I would think it would make it harder to offend people accidentally. Now we are in a state of flux in which my generation (I'm 39) and those in their 20s tend to go more by how we feel than by rules, since nobody agrees much what the rules are. When you operate on your feelings of the moment rather than standards, unless you are willing to be upfront about your feelings and choices, you end up being passive aggressive a lot of the time. This is strictly my observation and I don't think I'm explaining myself that well.
I'm a little bothered by the comments about expecting the adult children and their families to "do" holidays and major events with families. I understand that parents want to continue to be a part of their children's lives and that it hurts when the AC spend more time with in-laws or friends. However, the AC have a right to decide what to do on holidays and I'm not sure that fairness is really an issue since you can't divide people up evenly like slicing a cake. To be honest, I always tended to spend holidays with whatever family was the most fun, OR whomoever was going to be alone if I didn't go. I will also consider people's feelings if there's a big family event, but I am unlikely to go if I don't know the people at the center of the event. If my husband or in-law said, "Please come to this event because it is so important to me" I would do it, but if a command performance were simply expected, I would not.
My DS and DIL RSVP'd to his sister's wedding and then declined to go at the last minute because another friend wound up getting married Vegas style. Their choice, but I was not letting that slide. Had he been deployed, or had they gotten sick, I certainly would have understood. I spoke up on behalf of our family because it seems a given that a wedding IS important.
For the record, I have never given my children any flack about where they spend their holidays. Nor do I care. Which I think is why I was heard when I spoke up about the wedding. If I spoke up, 1.) it meant I cared and 2.) I was hurt. As such, some holidays I am alone, some I am not, but my kids know they and their families are always welcome.
Letting my kids know I expect them to be somewhere isn't the same as commanding them to be there. If they can not meet my expectation, I make-do. But, I wouldn't want them skipping out on an event because they thought I didn't care. I will not allow that to become their future excuse, so I say how I feel.
I disagree that 99% of the posters suggest a certain course of action. That's a generalization about generalizing, isn't it? I think if you jump in and start discussing, you'll find varying views.
FWIW, I did try really, a lot, to develop communication with my DIL. She's the one who said stop talking to me, leave me alone, go find something else to put your attention on. I took her advice.
Quote from: Silver Spring on May 08, 2012, 09:52:57 AM
My DS and DIL RSVP'd to his sister's wedding and then declined to go at the last minute because another friend wound up getting married Vegas style. Their choice, but I was not letting that slide. Had he been deployed, or had they gotten sick, I certainly would have understood. I spoke up on behalf of our family because it seems a given that a wedding IS important.
For the record, I have never given my children any flack about where they spend their holidays. Nor do I care. Which I think is why I was heard when I spoke up about the wedding. If I spoke up, 1.) it meant I cared and 2.) I was hurt. As such, some holidays I am alone, some I am not, but my kids know they and their families are always welcome.
Letting my kids know I expect them to be somewhere isn't the same as commanding them to be there. If they can not meet my expectation, I make-do. But, I wouldn't want them skipping out on an event because they thought I didn't care. I will not allow that to become their future excuse, so I say how I feel.
It is reasonable to expect your son to attend his sister's wedding and I should have said that. Even if the bride hadn't been his sister, it would be reasonable for her to expect your son and his wife to attend her wedding after they RSVPd. I meant my comment in a more general way because I have known parents who wanted to be the ruling patriarch and matriarch who could lay down the law about family events their AC were expected to attend.
Personally, I think it's wonderful you make your feelings and expectations known. I would find that to be a relief and I truly respect people who will do this. Apparently not everybody does.
I think it depends. Silver Spring, it is refreshing to hear of someone able to express their expectations and also state they can make do if they are not met.
However, I guess I tend to think while it's ok (and certainly, it worked out which is the most important part!) is that DS's sister, the bride, should have said something. It's just my take, I understand speaking up about your own feelings about it, which is perfectly fine.
Maybe it's a cultural thing? My siblings and I speak to each other, our parents aren't involved in our relationships. If my brother did this to me, I would be able to talk to him. There is a similar dynamic in my DHs FOO but not exactly the same, everything runs through MIL and she talks for everyone which causes massive problems.
Although I realize you weren't talking for your DD, just yourself in your situation. That's why I think it depends on where and how this would work. Some families it wouldn't work and might cause even more problems.
Good call, pam1, I didn't even think about the sister speaking to her brother when he missed her wedding. One of my major problems with MIL is that she speaks for her daughter and the other way around. Of course, when that happens you don't even know if you are getting the true feelings of the person who's being spoken for or simply the speaker's interpretation thereof.
Although in the case of silver spring's daughter's wedding, I can see why she would feel the need to say something since as the bride's mother she probably had a big role in organizing the event.
Welcome Monroe and I'm sure if you are just reading the most recent threads, it does sound like the majority of people here don't communicate or try to talk. I did try to talk to DIL, to DS and then both of them together at various different times. The problem with my personal situation is that DIL wasn't interested in knowing why I did something or how I felt. If it wasn't going to be how she wanted, then it was wrong period. I think I'm pretty unique here with having issues while they were dating (she is a couple of years older) and he was still in High School, so issues were with him, not her...but involved her. Exp: Hanging out with her when he had a college essay to write and due the next day resulting in me telling him, in front of her, that she needed to go home because he needed to finish the paper. Ticked her off big time and she told him I was treating him like a baby. When I tried to explain to her that it wasn't anything to do with her, it was about him procrastinating for a month and that I had told him the day before, no company until he finished the paper, she got mad and stomped off. When I would tell him that I would not tolerate her disrespect in my home and she could quit coming over if she was going to act that way...well, you get it. When he blew off a full scholarship to a College he had been wanting to attend for years, to go to a local college that she was attending, I tried to talk him out of it. It wasn't about her, but me telling him not to give up his dreams because of anyone. He could still see her on weekends, holidays (1 1/2 away). That he needed to attend the College he worked hard for. She wanted him to not go away and be with her. Again, not blaming DIL, it was his choice...but the Mom/Son conversations didn't sit well with her because she just decided that I wanted him away from her.
After marriage, talking to DS was him simply constantly saying, "That's not what DIL told me, or no...you haven't done anything." I never could understand if DIL was telling him things that weren't true, or if DS was making excuses for his own behavior. When I decided that since I didn't know which way it was, it would be better to talk to them together. I got nothing from either of them. Does it mean that DIL was busted? Which probably made it worse because if that was the case, then what better way to not get busted but to have nothing to do with you? Does it mean that DS was busted? Which probably made it worse because if that was the case, then what better way to not get busted but to have nothing to do with you?
So yes, I tried the communication route first. Made everything worse, but I don't regret it because I do feel like I tried.
Quote from: Pooh on May 08, 2012, 11:05:04 AM
Welcome Monroe and I'm sure if you are just reading the most recent threads, it does sound like the majority of people here don't communicate or try to talk. I did try to talk to DIL, to DS and then both of them together at various different times. . . . . .
. .. . . . So yes, I tried the communication route first. Made everything worse, but I don't regret it because I do feel like I tried.
Pooh - I am a new poster, but not a new reader. I have actually read many many full threads going back over a year. Most in the DIL threads, some in the AC threads. I realize problems may be as much because of AC behavior as DIL or son-in-law behavior - it's just easier to blame the DIL or SIL instead of our blood children.
I didn't mean that most people don't try to talk. I meant that most experienced members here advise against it - maybe because, like you, they HAVE tried, in a non-confrontational way, and it has been futile - so most posters seem to advise against trying to talk things out because it doesn't work.
What's the old saying -- "Never try to teach a pig to sing --- it's hard to do and it only annoys the pig"
That seems to be the outcome - someone tries to talk it out with a relative, and it only annoys that relative, despite the first person's best intentions. (And no, I am not calling DILs pigs - that's just the old saying - could also refer to a MIL who doesn't want to iron things out with a DIL or SIL or neighbor or anyone else, for that matter)
DS, in a rather silly loss of sensibility, called me for a ride to the airport. I told him it didn't suit and then I told him why. I'm sure he would have told his sister eventually (don't know when), and I have no idea what she might have done. I was not speaking for her, but on my behalf because I did not condone his or DIL's decision. I am not one to just go along to get along.
There were other things I spoke up about to, although it took awhile. All I needed to do was determine my goal first. Am I to feel better about something and move on? Or am I to brood for the sake of a relationship with any one of my kids? I just started speaking up. "I would like it if..." and having tremendous understanding when they can't. When DIL became criticizing, I just told her she didn't have to agree with me, that I did the best I could. As she is as well.
I am lucky, they tolerate me even though I spoke up. I get that. However, my feelings about other slights are in a much better perspective because speaking up gave me a chance to move on. Contrary, I've had to listen a few times when I've stepped over their boundaries. It was hard to do, but I realized that while I couldn't fix what I did, giving them the chance to speak up gave them closure as well.
Ah, gotcha! I am a firm believer in hashing things out, like Silver Spring, it works both ways. You have to be willing to talk and listen.
I would rather DIL look at me and say, "You know what? I don't like you...I've never liked you and I don't think I ever will." I would say, "Ditto, we're having roast for supper, you hungry?"
My perfect world.
I tried to talk to my MIL, but not until after I'd held things inside for years. I had sometimes tried to let her know she was stepping on my toes, but very indirectly or VERY gently, and that, I have discovered, does not work with everyone. I waited too long to get direct and then exploded. I didn't handle it well and consider it mostly my fault that it went badly.
A few months of mutual silence went by, then she sent me a letter in which she apologized very vaguely for a very vaguely worded wrong and showed a desire for things to be better between us. I responded warmly and said I wanted to work things out. I thought that meant we would write our feelings/needs/desires to each other or get together, just the two of us, and talk things over with kindness. She, however, took my acceptance of her apology as permission to go right back to how we'd done things before. I guess she thought she would just be "nicer" and never have to talk about any of it. I do understand that those conversations can be embarrassing and uncomfortable, but that wasn't going to fly with me, and after several attempts to get her to communicate further -- with no response whatsoever, not the slightest acknowledgement -- I told her to forget it, that the relationship was over. She probably tells people that she apologized and I refused to make up with her, but as you see when some people say they have approached the other party they have only gone through the barest motions and won't follow through.
I consider it a great fault on my part that I didn't speak to her directly about what was bothering me till I was boiling over, but this was not some disordered desire to just stay angry at her. I come from a background of Christian women being "nice" and "letting things go", so I tended to dismiss my feelings as trivial and selfish. Yet I just couldn't let go of those feelings. Now I see the problem with this way of thinking and am trying to be different.
Looking back on everything, though, and seeing the way MIL has behaved since then, I suspect that even if I'd done what I should have in the beginning, we would have reached this point. I don't think she is a bad person, but the entire family is so damaged and operates in such a toxic way that I don't think she knows how to relate to others in an honest way that respects boundaries and feelings. As for me, I've given up trying to fix things for other people.
Quote from: Silver Spring on May 08, 2012, 11:24:09 AM
DS, in a rather silly loss of sensibility, called me for a ride to the airport. I told him it didn't suit and then I told him why. I'm sure he would have told his sister eventually (don't know when), and I have no idea what she might have done. I was not speaking for her, but on my behalf because I did not condone his or DIL's decision. I am not one to just go along to get along.
There were other things I spoke up about to, although it took awhile. All I needed to do was determine my goal first. Am I to feel better about something and move on? Or am I to brood for the sake of a relationship with any one of my kids? I just started speaking up. "I would like it if..." and having tremendous understanding when they can't. When DIL became criticizing, I just told her she didn't have to agree with me, that I did the best I could. As she is as well.
I am lucky, they tolerate me even though I spoke up. I get that. However, my feelings about other slights are in a much better perspective because speaking up gave me a chance to move on. Contrary, I've had to listen a few times when I've stepped over their boundaries. It was hard to do, but I realized that while I couldn't fix what I did, giving them the chance to speak up gave them closure as well.
I understand. I think it is great that you speak up for yourself and I love that you're able to put other things in perspective because of it. Just for the record, I don't think you did anything wrong in that scenario, I just can imagine where in other families it could go horribly wrong due to personalities and culture clashes. But you're able to do what works for you and that's great.
I'm one of the ones who spoke up and I was the scapegoat because of it. Words I have said have been twisted to suit an agenda, feelings I have expressed have been used for gossip fodder. In DHs family it's unheard of to speak for yourself, you send a representative lol. It's rude to speak for yourself, if that makes any sense. I'm outlandish and don't know my place, cold and angry for speaking up about things. I don't regret it because that is who I am and I would regret not speaking up but I do understand when people don't. And why I don't anymore with them. I just don't have anything to do with them because of it.
Quote from: Monroe on May 08, 2012, 11:16:42 AM
I meant that most experienced members here advise against it - maybe because, like you, they HAVE tried, in a non-confrontational way, and it has been futile - so most posters seem to advise against trying to talk things out because it doesn't work.
I think it's more a matter of what's a good investment of time and energy. Luise so eloquently suggests in thousands of different ways that our expectations of others get in the way of living our lives and I've come to agree with her.
I feel like it's a waste of time to pour emotional energy into people who just aren't trying to improve their side of the situation, relative or not.
Also, I have a feeling - just a feeling, that if someone has to ask whether or not they should confront someone, then maybe they shouldn't. You have to be able to carry the situation and if you have doubts about being able to do it, then others' encouragement isn't going to carry you through, necessarily. I'm not certain about that since it just came to mind.
I would agree with you Doe. I think it's a realization you have to be ready for on your own. I don't think you can confront anyone unless you have decided you will accept the outcome, good or bad.
My take: Good discussion...and...99% of us never have agreed on anything. There in lies our strength. Sending love...
Quote from: Vasilisa on May 08, 2012, 09:43:16 AM
I'm a little bothered by the comments about expecting the adult children and their families to "do" holidays and major events with families. I understand that parents want to continue to be a part of their children's lives and that it hurts when the AC spend more time with in-laws or friends. However, the AC have a right to decide what to do on holidays and I'm not sure that fairness is really an issue since you can't divide people up evenly like slicing a cake. To be honest, I always tended to spend holidays with whatever family was the most fun, OR whomoever was going to be alone if I didn't go. I will also consider people's feelings if there's a big family event, but I am unlikely to go if I don't know the people at the center of the event. If my husband or in-law said, "Please come to this event because it is so important to me" I would do it, but if a command performance were simply expected, I would not.
I think this is what DS/DIL do - and DIL's FOO is always more fun, 'cos they have the biggest house & the best toys. We've worked hard all our lives but will never be able to be "the most fun" compared to DIL's FOO. DS might yearn to go along on some of our low-rent adventures again, but DIL never will so that's the end of it.
Quote from: Pen on May 08, 2012, 10:07:24 PM
Quote from: Vasilisa on May 08, 2012, 09:43:16 AM
I'm a little bothered by the comments about expecting the adult children and their families to "do" holidays and major events with families. I understand that parents want to continue to be a part of their children's lives and that it hurts when the AC spend more time with in-laws or friends. However, the AC have a right to decide what to do on holidays and I'm not sure that fairness is really an issue since you can't divide people up evenly like slicing a cake. To be honest, I always tended to spend holidays with whatever family was the most fun, OR whomoever was going to be alone if I didn't go. I will also consider people's feelings if there's a big family event, but I am unlikely to go if I don't know the people at the center of the event. If my husband or in-law said, "Please come to this event because it is so important to me" I would do it, but if a command performance were simply expected, I would not.
To me, "most fun" means whomever is jolly and companionable and acts as though it's a holiday as opposed to grumping in front of the TV with a plate of cold food. If I want to be grumpy and sit alone and morose in front of a TV, I could do that more comfortably at home -- well, no I couldn't, because I don't have a TV. But I could watch a movie.
I think this is what DS/DIL do - and DIL's FOO is always more fun, 'cos they have the biggest house & the best toys. We've worked hard all our lives but will never be able to be "the most fun" compared to DIL's FOO. DS might yearn to go along on some of our low-rent adventures again, but DIL never will so that's the end of it.
I think discussing it with sil/dil/ dd/ ds is a double edge sword , and I agree be prepared for the outcome either way. When it is a new situation my thought and I might be very wrong is to try to resolve it before years go by, angers fester , walls go up that can't come back down and God forbid something happened to anyone involved before it can be resolved to a degree. I just worry about all these players ( dil, sil, mil, ds. dd, etc). I watched my mom in heartache over my brother and now in the 28 years she has been gone he has suffered his carried that demon with him as he knows he didn't treat her right prior to her death and she did discuss how hurt she was to me ( never before ) as she never felt he loved her , that is so hard to know this sweet, loving mom felt that way a week before her death. So I feel I need to try to resolve it and be ready to be the bad one or whatever comes so at least I tried , as we r not promised tomorrow.
V - If you are a little bothered by any comments here...just take what you want and leave the rest. We are not here to agree or disagree but to have a place to be heard and respected. We don't debate or take sides. I know that is very different from a lot of Web-forums but that is what we have created and want to maintain. Sending love...
Pen, maybe we need to invest in a swimming pool with a tikki hut bar, tanning bed and hot tub. Maybe we would get more visits then! (Joking of course)
Love your levity! ;D Just gotta' add, would the pool be big enough or the hut grand enough?
LOL! You are right...I wouldn't have the right watt bulbs either :)
My last comment got mangled by my inability to use the quote function, so here it is again:
To me, "most fun" means whomever is jolly and companionable and acts as though it's a holiday as opposed to grumping in front of the TV with a plate of cold food. If I want to be grumpy and sit alone and morose in front of a TV, I could do that more comfortably at home -- well, no I couldn't, because I don't have a TV. But I could watch a movie.
Pen, I'd love to have somebody like you as a MIL. I've had plenty of low-rent adventures myself and they are more fun than the other kind.
Vasilisa, I hope you haven't actually experienced that grumpy holiday. Sounds awful :(
We've attended a number of events in the past year or two. The folks in the cheap seats always seem to be having more fun!
Pen, that was a description of major holidays at my inlaws' house, although I neglected to mention that the wimminfolk would probably spend part of their time away from the TV, gossiping.
It's just as bad in my own family, though. I have divorced parents and an icily correct sister who hates us all yet used to regularly subject us to a Christmas party in her large, well-appointed, tasteful and hideously uncomfortable home. I now choose to have my own holidays at home and I'm always happy to be invited somewhere by cheerful people whether they do things expensively or not.
It takes the effort on everyone's part to make a happy fun holiday. When someone comes into your home grumpy and unhappy to be there, you just can't do anything about it. I have had my full of those holidays with my DIL. I tried to make conversation and joke around and get everyone relaxed and talking and laughing, but my efforts fell flat. Only to find out later that I was thought of as crazy.... or worse yet drunk!!! lol!! What can you do? You cannot force anyone to have a good time. So now I don't spend holidays with DS/DIL. In the last couple of years hubby and I have made our own traditions. Like on Thanksgiving we treat ourselves to a lavish buffet dinner at a country club. On Christmas Eve we go to the city for a play and dinner afterwards. Christmas Day is spent with DHs sisters and their families. I have had some very pleasant holidays of late. I have no desire to go back to how it was, even if I don't get to see my DS or his kids right on the exact day. He brings them over "around Christmas" and we do our presents and dinner then.
What I don't get is why people who are clearly unhappy to have you at their home still expect you to be there on certain days of the year. Holidays are supposed to be happy times, but so many people do things (and expect others to do things) that make them miserable. Lilly, I'm with you.
Quote from: Vasilisa on May 10, 2012, 05:47:15 AM
What I don't get is why people who are clearly unhappy to have you at their home still expect you to be there on certain days of the year. Holidays are supposed to be happy times, but so many people do things (and expect others to do things) that make them miserable. Lilly, I'm with you.
Yet all of us mothers of sons recall the time that our boys LOVED to spend all the holidays with us. We remember the Christmas eve traditions and the Christmas Day excitement and the happy Thanksgivings. Yet now it's a chore? Did we change? or did they? It is very hurtful to now have to move aside and do things on our own without family. IMO we were forced into finding alternate ways of celebrating the holidays. We wouldn't be doing what we do if the holidays were happy times like they used to be. I'd just simply rather not be miserable watching someone else be miserable. I just try not to think about it and enjoy our new traditions.
I loved holidays with my extended family as a child and wish I could have something like that now. Things did change, as is to be expected since that was nearly three decades ago in my case. It wasn't one thing, it was multiple things -- death of grandparents, members of the family moving away, marriages, divorces, etc. The situation always does change. I guess the pain comes from our disappointment because although we knew that holidays wouldn't continue in a sort of stasis, we expected to continue having fun and closeness with family at that time and for whatever reasons we couldn't have it anymore in any form. I keep on hoping for something to change, but in the meantime I choose to have my own family celebration at home rather than spend time with people who obviously can't wait for me to leave or who are more interested in the TV. Anyone who wants to join us is welcome as long as he or she leaves the grumpiness at home.
Quote from: Lillycache on May 10, 2012, 05:01:46 AM
In the last couple of years hubby and I have made our own traditions.
Right On, Lilly! That's what DH and I have been doing for the last few years and I've had some great times doing what we want to do.
Quote from: Lillycache on May 10, 2012, 06:03:20 AM
Quote from: Vasilisa on May 10, 2012, 05:47:15 AM
What I don't get is why people who are clearly unhappy to have you at their home still expect you to be there on certain days of the year. Holidays are supposed to be happy times, but so many people do things (and expect others to do things) that make them miserable. Lilly, I'm with you.
Yet all of us mothers of sons recall the time that our boys LOVED to spend all the holidays with us. We remember the Christmas eve traditions and the Christmas Day excitement and the happy Thanksgivings. Yet now it's a chore? Did we change? or did they? It is very hurtful to now have to move aside and do things on our own without family. IMO we were forced into finding alternate ways of celebrating the holidays. We wouldn't be doing what we do if the holidays were happy times like they used to be. I'd just simply rather not be miserable watching someone else be miserable. I just try not to think about it and enjoy our new traditions.
Lilly, I can so relate to you. My efforts at joking and being silly are "stupid" and "offensive." Ok, LOL
As far as the son suddenly changing, just from my point of view, my DH never liked it and only went along some time. ALL of them (DH, MIL, FIL and his siblings) admitted that he didn't come around them very much until me. And yes, I did some boo boo's and tried to fix their relationships. However, when I got burned too many times and stopped organizing and getting together, when I left it up to DH and nothing ever came about or he would choose not to go, most of the time not even checking with me (I wouldn't even know about it or that he said no) yet I was blamed.
It became my fault he didn't want to see them, it was my fault for no longer pushing him.
I don't understand the sons he genuinely enjoy their parents and then suddenly drop them. Maybe it's just easier to go along and keep the peace in the house he actually lives in. It's really hard to understand that one.
It does make it hard to have holidays like growing up when now there are only a few of you left to celebrate due to parents , grandparents are all gone and cousins live so far away. So in our little family there are only now 9 adults ( which include 2 stepsons that do holidays with the other side most of the time) so that leaves us 5 ( that includes the SIL that doesn't want to be here and really doesn't want us there but would rather us to the drive than him have to go out of his way) . WE started the Chinese Christmas eve years ago ( he likes it ) so now with the folks that come it is our only little tradition we are keeping . i wonder now if there were all this going on when everyone was living ( gp, aunts, uncles etc) and I was just too young to know or it was not discussed. Never knew that things would be so different as i got older and became the suppose to be planner of all of it . Maybe have all celebrations on one day out of the year that way no one is out., LOL
Quote from: artlady on May 10, 2012, 07:19:49 AM
It does make it hard to have holidays like growing up when now there are only a few of you left to celebrate due to parents , grandparents are all gone and cousins live so far away. So in our little family there are only now 9 adults ( which include 2 stepsons that do holidays with the other side most of the time) so that leaves us 5 ( that includes the SIL that doesn't want to be here and really doesn't want us there but would rather us to the drive than him have to go out of his way) . WE started the Chinese Christmas eve years ago ( he likes it ) so now with the folks that come it is our only little tradition we are keeping . i wonder now if there were all this going on when everyone was living ( gp, aunts, uncles etc) and I was just too young to know or it was not discussed. Never knew that things would be so different as i got older and became the suppose to be planner of all of it . Maybe have all celebrations on one day out of the year that way no one is out., LOL
Oh my... that sounds like our family. Both DH and I no longer have living parents or grandparents or unkles and aunts. DH has 2 sisters who have kids and lots of grandkids so on CHristmas Day we go over there, but ya know.. for me it's not the Christmas feeling I remember with my family.. (How I MISS them all) I have one biobrother that lives in a far away state who has sort of removed himself from the picture and joined his wives family. So it's hubby and I. Funny you should bring up the Chinese Christmas Eve. That's our tradition too! We always go to Chinatown for dinner after the play. I got the idea from the movie A Christmas Story (You'll shoot your eye out kid!) They went to a Chinese restaurant after the dog ate the turkey!.
Oooh, Chinese Christmas Eve?? What's that, artlady? Is your family Chinese or is this just a fun tradition you've adopted?
I wish I could adopt you all for holidays. I love having lots of people over, and Christmas, Thanksgiving, and Easter just don't seem right without all the generations there. What's a holiday without old folks and kids? It just isn't as interesting or fun.
What I'm hearing here is that we're all grieving the loss of a specific period of our lives when people we loved were still alive, still lived close, and/or still liked us. That's life, I guess -- I'm trying to learn to deal with it.
My own dear grandmother, RIP, had a situation many women here would envy as she remained close to her children and grandchildren all her life and always had everyone -- at least everyone who was still local -- at her house for holidays. Wish I'd thought to learn her secrets for family success while she was still with us. As far as I know, everybody loved Grandma, including her sons-in-law.
I can relate, AL. We have no other family within 2000+ miles of here. My DF told me once, after my SM banned us from even being in the same vacation spot they were visiting w/her AC/GC one Christmas, that the reason we weren't included was because they thought of Christmas as a "family time." That was the first time anyone had actually admitted that we weren't part of the family, a feeling I'd had for years. It was amusing that SM really thought she had the right or the power to keep us out of a public area (no, we didn't go anyway, but we could have, lol.)
So, it looks as if we're down to DH, me & DDD. I'd change the way we tend to do holiday stuff but DDD is pretty rigid and has a hard time letting go of what she sees as our "traditions." Neither she or DH are exuberant types, whereas DS & I are more verbal and expressive. It gets pretty quiet around here when DS isn't around not to mention awkward when I'm feeling festive or jolly & am getting no response. DH & I can't take off and leave DDD behind on the holidays, so travel is out unless her schedule & finances permit (not likely.)
I find I do less & less decorating, cooking, etc. and the holidays aren't as big a deal anymore. It's a lot less work/stress, which is a bit of a relief, but I still have fond memories of happier, more festive times w/family & friends (can't plan to have our friends around for fear DS/DIL will decide to show up; DIL doesn't like them.) When you have less people around it's like trying to build a fire without enough kindling.
I can totally see how all of this makes us look "not fun" to DS/DIL if they happen to join us...kind of a self-fulfilling prophesy?
Golly, that's sad, Pen. Although it sounds as though DIL isn't going to like anything you do anyway, so you might as well invite over whomever you please.
Some people have too narrow a definition of "family". And sometimes I think I'd enjoy myself more if I spent Christmas helping out at a soup kitchen.
My family was never very big. My Christmases consisted of me and my brother, grandma and grandpa (my moms parents) and auntie (my grandma's sister.. never married) Later on after I married, it included my husband and kids. It never occured to me that this wouldn't just perpetuate. I know that grandma and grandpa and auntie... and eventually my parents would pass away... but I just assumed that I would have grandchildren and DILs filling up the room. It also never occured for me to notice that conspicuously absent in my childhood christmases were my paternal grandparents. They were with their daughter and other grandkids (my cousins) It seriously NEVER occured to me that as the mother of boys only would I be on the outside looking in at the Holidays... or at best meerly and obligatory visit.... Something to get over with before moving on to another house. So yes I am grieving these memories... but also part of me feels that I lost out on a lot by not being with my paternal grandparents or allowed to become really close to my cousins.. who are now just basically strangers and facebook acquaintances.
A fair few people here seem to be chalking up these family problems to being mothers of sons. What I want to know is, Why is being the mother of sons a problem? I genuinely want to know. It can't always be a problem -- my aunts are mothers of sons only and they are very, very involved with their sons and grandchildren, maybe even more than they want to be (one aunt has provided a lot of childcare for her grandchildren, the other has actually raised one of hers). One of my aunts in particular has always been loved by her sons' wives and girlfriends, even after they split up. Maybe I should ask her her secret in case I ever have a son!
Quote from: Vasilisa on May 10, 2012, 08:32:59 AM
A fair few people here seem to be chalking up these family problems to being mothers of sons. What I want to know is, Why is being the mother of sons a problem? I genuinely want to know. It can't always be a problem -- my aunts are mothers of sons only and they are very, very involved with their sons and grandchildren, maybe even more than they want to be (one aunt has provided a lot of childcare for her grandchildren, the other has actually raised one of hers). One of my aunts in particular has always been loved by her sons' wives and girlfriends, even after they split up. Maybe I should ask her her secret in case I ever have a son!
There is nothing you can do and nothing you can prepare for. The amount of inclusion you get to enjoy with your son and his wife and their kids is the amount your DIL allows. If she decides to like you or not. If she decides to be the social coordinator and include you. Most times sons do not even bother to coordinate planned activities including their wives and kids, with their parents. 9 times out of 10 it is the wife doing this. If you are lucky, she will do it.. unlucky and she won't and you will miss out.
It can't be all about the DIL. There are DILs who are selfish, socially maladjusted, or just people of ill will -- I get it. But it is not always the DIL.
Quote from: Lillycache on May 10, 2012, 08:47:03 AM
Quote from: Vasilisa on May 10, 2012, 08:32:59 AM
A fair few people here seem to be chalking up these family problems to being mothers of sons. What I want to know is, Why is being the mother of sons a problem? I genuinely want to know. It can't always be a problem -- my aunts are mothers of sons only and they are very, very involved with their sons and grandchildren, maybe even more than they want to be (one aunt has provided a lot of childcare for her grandchildren, the other has actually raised one of hers). One of my aunts in particular has always been loved by her sons' wives and girlfriends, even after they split up. Maybe I should ask her her secret in case I ever have a son!
There is nothing you can do and nothing you can prepare for. The amount of inclusion you get to enjoy with your son and his wife and their kids is the amount your DIL allows. If she decides to like you or not. If she decides to be the social coordinator and include you. Most times sons do not even bother to coordinate planned activities including their wives and kids, with their parents. 9 times out of 10 it is the wife doing this. If you are lucky, she will do it.. unlucky and she won't and you will miss out.
I don't think this is true for everyone. Like I've said in my situation, DH doesn't want to spend time with his parents.
No.. I agree... and misspoke.. You are correct.. sometimes it is the son not wanting to see his parents. I am sorry for generalizing and I was speaking from only my personal experience.
Quote from: Vasilisa on May 10, 2012, 05:47:15 AM
What I don't get is why people who are clearly unhappy to have you at their home still expect you to be there on certain days of the year. Holidays are supposed to be happy times, but so many people do things (and expect others to do things) that make them miserable. Lilly, I'm with you.
This is my ex-SIL to a tee. She is extremely house-proud, and pretty controlling. So, in her head she wants to put together these Martha Stewart-like holidays and have family around her. But in practice, although her decorating and food are perfect, she drives herself so crazy getting there that she's awful to be around, and everyone picks up on her tension and either acts out or is miserable. But then she gets hurt and angry when nobody wants to come visit her. She's a nice person, so I more feel bad for her than feel judgemental. But it's really unnecessary stress.
I wonder what all these silent males have to do with the problem. Lilly, you made another thread about how your son is partly to blame for the situation, and pam1 has mentioned her husband's problems with his family, and from what she has said it looks as though my situation is very similar to hers. I'm also wondering about the FILS. Where are they in all this? Not talking to anybody, I presume. Not taking any of the responsibility, it looks like. Where do they fit into this? Can any of you speak from your own experience? I feel as though in my situation, my FIL is largely to blame for the wounds in his family, but because he refuses to deal with any of us, it is easy to overlook his part and I have tended to be more resentful of my MIL simply because she has interacted with us more. I see that much of what she says and does -- not all -- must have its roots in his behavior.
I think having sons is just different than having daughters. I have one brother, who is married and we love my SisIL. There are no issues between my brother and my mom, and we're equally as close to her. I talk to her more often, see her more often, for no other reason than it just occurs to me more often to do those things . Like most men I think, he's not big into talking on the phone. We only call each other or specific reasons, not just to chit chat. Even my female friends who have good relationships with their MILs admit they still see their FOO more. My mom has one sister and three brothers, and she's seen the exact same dynamic play out with her siblings - her brothers see their ILs more, while her and my aunt saw my GPs more. She says she just expects to see my brother less, and when they have kids, see their kids less than mine (and that my SisIL's DM will see their kids more). I think I only know one person off the top of my head who got more absorbed into her DH's FOO, and that was because her FOO was very unstable.
Sons need to speak up in situations where there's friction between MIL/DIL. I firmly believe that - we had a huge fight a few weeks ago over my MIL (first time that's ever happened). I made my view pretty clear (she wanted a separate birthday party for my son for just her) and DH talked to her, and she eventually agreed to come. I think too often adult sons just retreat to let MIL/DIL duke it out. I can relate to what you say Pam about getting the blame when DH doesn't want to see his family. My husband frequently nixes visits with his mom (both regular visits and holidays), and my MIL views me as running the whole show in our family (which I don't) so the blame for her not seeing him enough is falling squarely on my shoulders.
Quote from: Vasilisa on May 10, 2012, 08:32:59 AM
A fair few people here seem to be chalking up these family problems to being mothers of sons. What I want to know is, Why is being the mother of sons a problem? I genuinely want to know. It can't always be a problem -- my aunts are mothers of sons only and they are very, very involved with their sons and grandchildren, maybe even more than they want to be (one aunt has provided a lot of childcare for her grandchildren, the other has actually raised one of hers). One of my aunts in particular has always been loved by her sons' wives and girlfriends, even after they split up. Maybe I should ask her her secret in case I ever have a son!
Vasilisa, it all depends.
1.Sometimes the offspring and spouse don't get along w the parents; are cut off for some reason, valid or not.
2.Some families are seen as more fun bc there's a bigger crowd there, more activity, golf for the guys, lots of fun activites bc of the number of people there and their desire to "have fun.' Makes the other side look boring....
3. Some maternal (and paternal, I've seen) families MUST have the holidays/bdays, etc., at their house w everyone in attendance. Tradition. No one dares not to attend, it's expected the offspring is accustomed to this, the matriarch insists.....the left out party, can't fight this....everyone would be miserable.
4. I do know one daughter who HAS to go to her dh's mother's for all get-togethers; she's too shy to insist and her mother has other offsprings and doesn't insist on the holidays. Otherwise, it seems it's the son who can't/won't fight his wife and her family to go to his parents' house; I've seen young wives and their family insistent, and who wants an IL at their house who is miserable and sulking, anyway?
5. Sons leave social events more often to their wives, esp. if the wife doesn't work or is more into the social calendar. Some sons have no clue how it hurts the parents; if told, some will try to visit the parents as a condolence visit.
6. It seems that daughters are more often closer to their mothers than sons to their mothers; you know the old saying, lose the son when he marries.....daughters and mothers can share things that sons/mothers can't sometimes and the paternal father usually isn't as sensitive as the paternal mother to fight for the son/dil to come visit him.
Vasila, I noticed that your grandmother who had everyone in attendance at holidays must have had daughter(s) bc even the sils loved it at her house (my family used to take turns; I've never seen such a monopoly as I am enduring now);. I wonder how the sons who were always at their wives' grandmother's house felt; or their parents....who was with them?
Times have changed, I feel; wives are more in charge of social planning and young husbands can't or won't fight about it; peace w the wife and her family are more essential than the parents' being alone.
So as for me, I've accepted having whatever visits I can get and am planning to enjoy life w dh; that's the story w sons as I am experiencing it.
It can, of course, be a dominating mother of the son.....and your aunt whose sons and their wives or gfs love her; she's a very lucky woman if her sons insist on spending time w her and the gfs and wives aren't insistent on being w their own families all the time.
Our son loves us and does feel bad about it and is trying to even up some of the visits but the major ones.... his wife would leave and go alone; the expectation of her being at mom's is so strong she wouldn't think of not being there. For us, it's not worth asking our son to fight it out (and he wants some peace at home; his wife is more strong-willed than he in this....he has other things to hold his own on.)
Those of us w/DBs who married and were absorbed into their DW's FOOs overseas, a DF who remarried a jealous SM & became absorbed into her FOO, a DH who loves his FOO but doesn't require displays of togetherness with them, and a DS who got absorbed into his DW's FOO just lose out, I guess. That's my situation.
Although I love my DDD, our relationship isn't a normal DM/DD one. We talk everyday, but it's more like communicating with a young child. The only GC I'm likely to have will be through DS/DIL. That could be a lot of pressure on DS, which is one reason DH & I don't demand things of he & DIL.
My DIL supports my DS and I hanging out together, just the two of us, whether it is a birthday or just a regular day. She likes to do the same thing and spends time alone with me, as well. The dynamics change a lot when there are more than two people and yes, we like doing that, too. Sending love...
QuoteWhy is being the mother of sons a problem?
The old quote - a daughter is a daughter for the rest of her life; a son is a son until he takes a wife. This is what it "boils down to". Those of us with sons had "heard" of this saying; we just did not think it would apply to us.
In my case, with one DIL (now ex), we were not considered family. In the case of our second DIL, we were/are considered family. I do know from being around my friends (in my age category), situation one is the more common. So, it goes back to the old saying ....
JDTM, I'm sincerely glad you have one dil who is family to you! A bit envious, but glad! (I do have one son w a gf that may have a less demanding family; she seems "into us"....holding breath!) But have learned just have to accept what is, is. Just vent now and then! Haven't been on for a while but my venting is about over, hopefully!
If only the dominating family and spouse would realize that the offspring's family being ignored is just plain selfish and that the offspring actually would be happier......
But they don't get it; I do think in days past there was more sharing, at least in my experience. And sons were more assertive, at least in my experience! More sharing, more consideration. My father didn't neglect his mother/father in the least; my mother shared holidays; none of this one-sided stuff.
There are exceptions, thankfully, but there is a dynamic or generation that has changed; I could generalize, but I'd only get into trouble!
BTW, no way would I neglect my dh's family; many times they come first. My dh wouldn't have that, even if I were so inclined! My family is able to share, to alternate visits.....I do think there were times my mother didn't like having to share but she didn't object; fair is fair.
And consideration is consideration.
Has anything changed, ya think? I really wonder.
This has got to be cultural, though. I've read horrible news stories about strongly patriarchal cultures in which the new wife is completely absorbed into her husband's family and not only do they rule, they abuse the young woman. I hope that those are extreme situations, but I gather the dominance of the husband's family is taken for granted even when they are not actually abusive.
Maybe something has changed. My Grandma hated her MIL (and if what she said is true, she had good reason) but she and Grandpa still spent time with her and my mother and her sisters all loved her dearly.
There may be something to be said for just sucking it up if you don't like your inlaws, but I don't think my Grandma should have had to tolerate the cruel treatment she said she received from her MIL.
I can't say for certain that times have changed because what you described, justanoldgrandma, is how my FOO operates. My brother and his wife take turns, they spend one on one time with my stepmother and with us. They also see her family quite a bit but I don't know if it's more than us or not. I don't think anyone is keeping a tally and the reason for that is everyone is happy. No one feels slighted or shunned, if they go on a private holiday for vacation you don't hear my parents getting upset, same as if they go to her parents for a holiday. My parents are happy normally and don't really look to them or DH/I to fulfill them, anything we do with them is a bonus is how they tend to act about it. A lot of the times when I ask about, just for example Mothers Day since that is coming up, my stepmother will say Dad's taking me here, I hope you get to do what you want! With MIL it's always "what are you doing for me?"
I do know that when my brother married there was such a huge difference in how all of us handled my sister in law coming into the family. We asked her what she liked, would she be comfortable with this or that. Asked about her family. Watching this and my experience with entering DHs family was so totally different. And apparently they've been this way for as long back as most of them remember. They are hostile to outsiders, I still don't think they even know basic things about me or they are pretending not to know, I'm not sure lol. And I mean, very basic things...like the correct spelling of my name.
So in many ways I tend to think it's not generational, it's just how some people are.
I forgot to mention that my mother has had two MILs and loved them both, despite the problems she had with her husbands. She used to go visit my SF's mother regularly, several times a week, I think, by herself. My paternal grandmother, sadly, died when I was still little, but she was alive the first 10 years of my parents' marriage and my parents took my sister and later me to Sunday dinner at their house every week. I can't remember how holidays were handled when both sets of my grandparents were alive, but at least sometimes both families got together. I don't know if my father's parents and my mother's parents would have counted each other as friends, but they were certainly friendly and not in competition with each other.
My mother has never said an unkind word about my paternal grandmother, in fact she has told me far more stories about what Grandma was like than my father has. All wonderful things. She has always said, "She treated me like a daughter."
I'm of the opposite belief. I do think much of it has to do with generational. This is just my personal experience and not saying everyone is this way. My Mother was raised during the generation where her Mother told her that you always respect your elders. She was raised that no matter if you didn't like it, or were spoken to harshly by a MIL, you just smiled and went anyway. I also think that her MIL's harshness was way different than the female generation of today. More like snippiness, but not outright cursing or name calling. Her generation didn't call each other words we are not allowed to say here. She was raised to honor her husband's family in the same way as she would her own, no matter what.
She raised me the same way, except gave me a little more room by saying, "You should always go to your husband's family functions, but you don't have to take what I did, the snide comments. I had to just sit there, you have been raised more independent. You can smile and walk off." Again, I would have never dreamed of calling my MIL names or screaming at her and she wasn't giving me permission in my raising to not go. Just a little more ability to not just sit with my hands crossed and take it all. To walk off, politely.
Now, I see so many of this generation of women in their teens and 20's who think nothing of name-calling, screaming at any adult, including their MIL and feeling like if they don't like something, well then phooey on them, I don't have to be around them. I cringe every time I look on facebook at many of the young women posting terrible curse words and such.
Now, IMO, my Mother may have thought a curse word, but it never came out of her mouth. Me, I would say a curse word, but only in my own home or with my friends, never around my parents, in-laws, public, etc. We were closet cursers. Now, they let it fly and don't care who hears. I think Mom was raised to just not bring up small issues and take it, I was raised to accept the small issues and let them slide, muttering about them later in my own home, and in my case, DIL was raised to say what she wanted, about anything, even if it was small and wash her hands of it if she didn't like it.
Mom was just as busy as we are today. Grandma, probably even more so: Raising kids, gardening, canning, sewing all their clothes, family functions, etc. I was extremely busy. I think women were expected back then, their role to be the social planner. It was expected and they wouldn't have thought twice about not doing it. It was part of their wife job. I was the social planner, but threw in a few times for good measure of my Independence, hey DH, you can help with the dish washing, cleaning, kids too. I see more now that women are tired of planning everything and just don't anymore, hey DH, you can help with the chores and you can take care of your calendar.
So for me, I do see a generational thing going on. Lord knows my SD is even worse. It's not just the parents raising, it's school, their friends...the general attitude now.
Again, not all women and girls act like this. There are just as many good ones, on this very board is a good example, that had a 50/50 of this. Raised to respect people, but be independent. These are the ones that have tried but get no help from MIL.
Pooh, it sounds as though what your mother taught you was right. Go to the family functions, be polite, but don't take unkindness. But I think that only works if "the other side" see themselves as also having a responsibility. Often the MIL expects special treatment but wants to do whatever she feels like in regards to her son and his family, and/or vice versa. I have seen comments from both sides on other boards that make me cringe, especially when grandchildren are involved. GPs who think they should be able to do as much or as little with their GKs as they want, whatever they want, whenever they want, and the parents should allow it because they are the GPs and they are entitled. Or princessy mothers who say "It's MY kid, I'll do whatever I want, you'll take what I give you and do what I say and like it." As if the child is an object, not a person. Or, "I don't have to like you, get over it!" True, you don't have to like anyone, but that doesn't mean you don't have to treat that other person as you would want to be treated.
I don't know how I feel about women being expected to do all the social planning. Maybe it was reasonable when most women were housewives; maybe it is still reasonable for the women who still are traditional housewives. I still think that even men in traditional marriages should call their mothers and buy them birthday cards, that sort of thing. A wife can be responsible for planning family events; she cannot maintain her husband's relationship with his mother. That's just not realistic and I can't imagine any mother being satisfied with that anyway.
I would agree with you. I don't think a wife should be expected to do it, that the DH should step up and do it on his own. My Mom wasn't a housewife and I wasn't either, just kind of came with the territory I think more back then. I am a realist as well. I have the most wonderful DH, caring, loving, responsible. He truly is a gem but yet I am still the one that has to gently prod and say, "So what time is the thing Sunday?" He will give me the deer in the headlights look and go, "Ummm...I didn't ask." So I will say, "So maybe you should call her back and ask so we know?" Not just his Mother, but even a work meeting or anything, he will have to go back and look at his email.
I just think women multi-task better. I think we pay more attention to detail. I think, most men, left on their own wouldn't care about the time. We'll get there when we get there. Lol. So left to their own devices, things fall through the cracks more. :)
QuoteSo left to their own devices, things fall through the cracks more.
Yeah.... like their mothers and FOO
I think it's just each family is different. Each generation wasn't raised in a vacuum, they were raised by the previous one. So saying it's just a generational thing sounds like the younger generation just turned out a particular way by accident. It doesn't work like that. I think there's a balance between suffering in silence and being a self absorbed brat. And I know people in my generation and my mother's that fall into both of those categories. I spent the last 3 years helping care for my GPs because my GPs spent many years caring for us when we needed it. That's a value that was instilled in me by them and my mother. I have cousins who my GPs helped a lot as well, but their parents didn't value their GPs help (outside of being an ATM), and they were useless when the time came that my GPs needed help.
My mom had a very hard time speaking her mind to her mother, and although I'm sure she has moments where she wishes I'd just be quiet and do what she tells me too, she recognizes that it's healthier that I feel comfortable speaking my mind to her (respectfully). Even though my MIL has been super critical as of late, I still can't imagine cutting her off or telling her off for that matter. Unless she does something dangerous, it seems so extreme to cut off contact (and DH would never go along with it). I'll still be nice to her, and I'll still encourage a relationship between her and my DS, even if she thinks I'm a bad mother and is blaming me for not having as much contact with DH/DS as she'd like.
I know that each situation is different. There are not only those who can get along with anyone...there are also those who can't get along with anyone. Beyond that, it seems me that my generation (born in the 1920s) was more culturally insulated. Our parents were authority figures, as were their parents before them. We weren't "asked" we were "told." We walked to school through rain sleet and hail and no one drove us to the few activities that were available to us. The radio offered us the news, symphonies, operas and Amos and Andy. Our parents set the dials. When we looked around us, every other home was very similar. We grew up in genteel poverty. Our parents were well educated and trying to survive the great depression.
There were no sitcoms to show us kids smarting off...we feared crossing or even disappointing our parents. Children were seen and not heard. My mother read aloud to us every evening but we didn't choose the books. We never would have thought of asking for that or for much of anything else. Movies were something we simply coldn't afford. Decisions were made and then handed down to us.
As I look back...and back...and back....75 years...to when I was 10 years old, it feels to me like it was pretty comfortable and we felt safe. We were taken care of in a very basic way and our lives weren't complicated. Puberty meant Senior Girl Scouts. There were no drug and sexual issues. I knew of only two "out-of-wedlock" pregnancies in my first 20 years and we never talked about them. The disgrace was beyond anyones's comprehension, as though those girls lived on another planet.
We probably can't expect kids who are savvy on Facebook, Internet games, and endless input beyond the walls of their homes to be predictable or traditional when they become adults. They have been bombarded with information, overstimulated and challenged to process all of it. They grew up with cell phones and Visa Cards...and a lot more that we probably don't know enough about. I have no idea how relationships and careers and parenting fit in. Their "neighborhood" was/is the world.
To me, it's mindboggling.
Pooh, that's interesting. I can see the change in her generation to yours.
In my FOO there is not much of a change, but then again, there isn't any problem between the in laws. My paternal grandmother (even after my parents divorce,) whom I'm very close to because she and I shared in helping with my terminally ill mother, never had a cross thing to say about her in law or her daughters in laws. She had her MIL over and took care of her MIL even when her husband, my grandfather, was deceased. She spoke highly of her. My GreatGrandma spoke highly of my Grandma. There just wasn't any of these in law issues, everyone treated each other well.
By their examples it never occurred to me that there would be problems. Although by the same token my Mother and paternal Grandma taught me that toxic or unhealthy people (whatever the word is today for people that make your life miserable) should not be tolerated. My maternal grandmother has many, many problems and it's not because she was my fathers mother in law. She was always that way. So it was my fathers mother who helped in taking care of my mother. My mother and paternal Grandma were in laws but you never would know it.
Quote from: luise.volta on May 10, 2012, 07:24:39 PM
There were no sitcoms to show us kids smarting off
I think "All in the Family" changed the future of the planet. I can't remember the names, but I remember other sitcoms with Archie Bunker-like teenagers + 'stupid' parents followed.
We probably can't expect kids who are savvy on Facebook, Internet games, and endless input beyond the walls of their homes to be predictable or traditional when they become adults. They have been bombarded with information, overstimulated and challenged to process all of it. They grew up with cell phones and Visa Cards...and a lot more that we probably don't know enough about. I have no idea how relationships and careers and parenting fit in. Their "neighborhood" was/is the world.
To me, it's mindboggling.
Wow, Luise, this paragraph left me speechless for a minute. You speak truth...
Wow so many points here I can identify with and too many to address in one post. To assure you with sons " a DD for the rest of your life" is not always the case . It can change right in front of your eyes with a new DH who considers " family" as only the ones that live under his roof. So there goes the paternal and maternal gps, thrown to the curb. Being a very new gm and almost 2 year MIL I thought we had gained a son ( from what we knew of him for 4 years before wedding) wow was I ever WRONG. So Jill1963 I totally agree we don't want to go where not wanted ( DD asks and wants us to come ) and going to be treated so rudely.So Herbalscapes this MIL doesn't want to be the cause of any martial problems, nor are we demanding Gp's time , intruding as little as possible . GS is now 4 months old I've seen him on 7 day trips ( 70 miles) which included 2 days with very short visits at the hospital. Vasilisa - yes I agree with the out of touch bachelor as SIL was 34, not a social life much and no but a few friends ( like 2-3) His own sm( his mom died 12 years ago) told him he was spoiled right in front of DD so maybe his family ( dad, sm, brother . his wife , cousins , grandmother ) all avoid him as none of his family showed for wedding but 5 out of 20 invited nor have any but one of them including his dad /sm ever gave them a wedding present. Pen sounds as though our background of family was alot a like so adapting to the new way is really hard but I'll get there . LL i agree I think the new couple needs to put each other first and that baby but not forget that their own families care , love and support them plus the gc should have some contact with the gp's before they graduate from high school. Pooh that is where I agree that all should have mutual respect for each other and that is all we want for SIL to just respect us as DD's parents and Gs's gp's , he doesn't have to like or love us, we can and would do great if he would just treat us with some common courtesy like you do coworkers that drive you crazy , you learn how to work around it . Pooh I was also raised to respect you elders , hey I even use that at work some to the younger gals , that I'm old so they need to respect their elders , they laugh as they don't' see me old , as they include me in all the things going on like I'm their age . LOL Now I do wish I had some of that rottweiler in me that LL said she had or wish she had , I'm so super sensitive that I"m sure that would help me heal faster. Now accepting a DD that was super close , we talked about everyday to only talking 5 times since 1/30/2012 ( gs's birth) I'm degraded to constant texts, and emails, pics of baby. I know new moms are super busy but now this one is over the gas issues, taking morning and mid day naps , sleeping 10 hours at night straight. She stopped calling from home after wedding , called on the way from work( not gone back and might not ) she will no longer call in front of him . OK I think it was Pen that commented on the Chinese Christmas . WE started in due to our small family, to add a little fun and also to keep DD and Future SIL for buying/ spending so much at Christmas, oh future SIL loved it , DD asked each year were we going to do it as he wanted to so we kept it up ( now he won't even make anymore as they will no longer travel at Xmas , didn't last year sine birth was a month away ) So we started with just us 5 plus another couple so we all bought 2 gifts. WE set a price which was 50 to 75.00( because that was Xmas between husbands , wives and friends so no other shopping ,You buy something you want as many times some play it right and can end up getting it back but the gifts are very nice of any you get.. It truly is about family and friends. It was great so since then it has grown to our extended families of some young couples with kids. AS they r so ill with our DD and SIL, they have either terrible relationships with their families , they live too far away or are deceased. So we have the kids decorating cookies, or ginger bread houses, this past year they wanted to do their own gift exchange Chinese Xmas( parents set the price limit) so we did theirs first , then the adults( now we buy one gift no less than 25 no more than 50.00) . Prior to all of that we do the meats , provide all beverages ( Capt Morgan's in mulled cider on the stove is a big hit for adults only) , everyone else brings a side dish, dessert , salad or whatever . We don't 'start after 7pm so all can go to church or mass. Kids range from 3-15 y. o., adults 32-67 years old with a total of 30 people, this was our 5Th year , we have to keep it up as now these families look forward to it , the ones missing are DD/SIL and now she wants us to be up there on Xmas eve, I've got no clue what she is thinking as SIL might not agree with that plus DH said we started this tradition and we are keeping it . Now I hope I've addressed all the things and I missed many that made so much sense to me and gave me hope . Happy Mother's day no matter what to all the great moms here
I think that social planning is just something women do better. Who knows... it might be genetic. lol! Women pay attention to dates and events and social propriety, whereas men really couldn't care less. They don't seem to have a clue. I am sure there are some men that do bang up jobs, but I believe they are far and few between. I'm not making excuses for them... just saying that if their moms are waiting for them to plan events with them, these moms most times will come up shorted.
Lilly, I wonder about that sometimes but my DH manages his time at work and with his friends just fine. I've talked with a few friends about this over the years and their husbands don't have much problems handling their social lives. In my very humble opinion I think it is less to do with gender, it is the man's priorities. I don't think they always make their family of origin a priority.
I hear ya, Pam.
I was hammering my husband recently about the fact that I have to do all the planning in an area of our lives and he gave me, "I'm just not good at planning." I pointed that his role in our business is all about planning - promotion, estimates, setting jobs, planning who will work, getting the equipment there, blah, blah blah. He didn't have a comeback to that!
Perhaps men just really don't care about their families. What else should we take from that? We are just not that important to them. :(
When I sam "families" I mean their moms and FOO. Better by far to have only girls.. :'(
I was sitting here ladies and thinking about when I was a little kid around 9 or 10 and my DGM told me that DGF's DM was coming to stay for a couple of months. Well, my DGF's Mother was always mean and hateful to my DGM and my DGM was not feeling well at the time. Granny was just plain ornery and mean at times. ;) Well, DGF sat his DM down when she got there and talked to her and told her that she was welcome in their home and that he loved her but she had to respect my DGM and keep her nasty comments to herself. My DG could never do anything to please her. All of us GC witnessed this time and time again. So when my DGF sat his DM down, things were quiet at first but we could still hear in the back bedroom with the door closed. :) We had been sent to the room but it didn't matter we all listened anyway. I look back and now I realize how she sulked for days after that talk but my DGF put his foot down and they would go at it every night for about a week after he got home from work. He told her he didn't know how my DG stayed with her all day. :o My DGF was very close to his DM. She finally calmed down and stayed for 4 months on that visit. All of the GC (us) would go over and she adored my DB but she didn't particularly care for us heathens as she called me and my DSs. :) Looking back, I think she just liked having all boys. She was the center of attention with all of them.
I had a.sistet and two brothers growing up , we all new my DM preferred the.boys .