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Problem Solving => Daughter in Laws and/or Son in Laws => Topic started by: amflautist on July 18, 2011, 10:21:44 AM

Title: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: amflautist on July 18, 2011, 10:21:44 AM
And the painted ponies go up and down...  I can't get that song out of my head today.  All because my son called me yesterday to tell me of his and DIL's plans for not-visiting during the holidays this year.  Not visiting yet again.  They will spend Thanksgiving with her FOO and then skip off to Australia for Christmas.  DS thinks his plan of seeing us the weekend before Thanksgiving will be OK.  Well, not actually seeing us, but meeting us "in a neutral place", in a restaurant, for a meal.

Background: This has been going on for several years.  It started the year he and DIL bought a house.  Instead of coming to our house for Thanksgiving that year, as planned, they changed the game by inviting her FOO to stay in the new house and celebrate Thanksgiving.  We weren't invited, because there was no room left at the inn.  The next year, when it was our turn to have them for Christmas, they went to her FOO again, with the excuse that they wanted to "get in synch" with her sister's visits home.  This is the year he and DIL are supposed to come to our home instead of her FOO's for Christmas. 

So we were blanked out again.  Yup, the painted ponies they go up and down, and I am going round and round, playing the circle game.  So I'll put on a sweet face once again, invite them for dinner at our home instead of a neutral place, and see what transpires. 

Still, I feel very lucky.  I know that DS loves his family, and I know that he will come to see us at least once a year without DIL.
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: luise.volta on July 18, 2011, 10:37:08 AM
I think it is such a sign of grace, as in Grace, when we can focus on what we feel grateful for. Bless your heart.
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: amflautist on July 18, 2011, 10:48:32 AM
Grace, as in you Luise.  You are the grace on this site.

Me?  No.  I'm an imposter, a Great Pretender.  But I appreciate all the women at WWU who display grace.  They inspire me.  By their examples, the exhort me to do the right thing.  There are quite a few great ones here.  We all should be taking our cues and learning from them.

LL, I am thinking of you as I write this!!!
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: Pooh on July 18, 2011, 11:48:36 AM
Bless your heart amflautist.  I know that was very hurtful but kudos to you for looking on the bright side of at least you are getting to see them. 
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: Pen on July 18, 2011, 11:59:57 AM
Amflautist, I'm often in "fake it til you make it" mode. But I will never, ever, ever let DS/DIL/DIL's FOO know how it rips me to shreds to always be last. Speaking of song lyrics, "Our Lips Are Sealed." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrYM2Gt9sMw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrYM2Gt9sMw) Now that's dating myself! Check out the cool clothes!
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: tryingmybest on July 18, 2011, 12:05:26 PM
I so identify with you!  and I hear what you are saying about being the great imposter. just found out my son's future inlaws have inserted themselves into what should be a special moment for he and his fiancĂ©. He said "we could come too, if we wanted to." I asked him if he wanted us there. " it was no that's okay." they are attending this event because it's "tradition". horse hockey! The future MIL is marking her territory. I've lost all holidays because Our traditions mean nothing. I keep pressing their need as a young couple to establish their own family and their own traditions. Ain't gonna happen. So I validate your anger, when did we become irrelevant ?  :'(
So, I like you grit my teeth and pretend it's all okay, but you know facing my second Christmas dinner in a Chinese restaurant because my sons have been sucked into some other families traditions without a second thought to the years of traditions they are so easily discarding just hurts.If they were building their own traditions it would be one thing - they will never get the chance. grrrr. >:(


Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: lancaster lady on July 18, 2011, 03:15:41 PM
amflautist ;

I am so flattered by your statement .
I  missed my Gd's first Christmas as she was with my F/DIL's FOO . Not only that they spent New Year's too , without a thought for my DS family . That was the straw that broke the camels back for me . I also missed her 1st birthday as they spent
that with my FDIL FOO too .
I couldn't pretend any longer that things were ok .I always wonder whether these things were done to purposely hurt
me or not .Also had I not raised these facts where would we be today .
Fate took over , and landed them in my lap whether they wanted to be here or not .
I always try to be the best that I can be , always take others feelings into consideration .
A gypsy once told me it would be returned to me a hundredfold , perhaps it's happening now ...... :)
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: Purple Room on July 18, 2011, 09:58:25 PM
My mother always used to say to me "My son is my son until he takes a wife, my daughter's my daughter for the rest of her life."Seems she was right but it still doesn't feel good.

Relating so much to what you are all saying.
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: justus on July 19, 2011, 05:24:19 AM
I know how you feel only from the other end. I was always second string to OS, even to the point of M choosing to spend both holidays with OS while OS and I were on the outs. M tried to convince me that it wasn't any sort of rejection, but since I lived in the next town and OS lived two states away and getting together in such a short period of time was unprecedented, I wasn't convinced. Anyway, the second year this happened, OS flaked out on Tday and I rescued M so she wouldn't have to be aloooone. Turns out she had about 5 guests turning up anyway. The next year, I decided I wouldn't be second string if, or I should say when, OS flaked out again and made other plans. Sure enough, M expected me to come running when OS decided at the last minute she wasn't coming up. Didn't do it and even though M  continued to chose not to have either holiday with my family despite offering to celebrate on other days, she still expected me to rescue her, but I always made sure we couldn't come running. She was always welcome to come to us, but I never again went to her. And, I stopped asking. I moved on. She showed me who she was and what I could expect of her, I learned from it and I moved on. I brushed the dust off of my clothes, as the saying goes. It was painful, and ten years later I am still brushing, but I am not waiting around like some forgotten doll for my M to notice me which was a form of heck I won't ever revisit.

That is what you have to do here. There is a new order of things, so plan accordingly. Don't even expect to have them anymore. Make plans, fun and exciting, or comfortable, or religious, or whatever fits you and DH, and if they unexpectedly decide to show up, tell them you have something  planned. They are welcome, but you aren't changing your plans. You can only control you, so do what you can to make these holidays the kind that are memorable and happy occasions.

Another good thing to do is to step back from it emotionally. I don't think this is done intentionally to hurt you or to avoid you, so don't assume it is. I know how easy it is to let yourself wallow in the pain of it. Do for a little while, then put it away, chose not to give them and this situation the power to hurt you anymore. Change your expectations and plan accordingly. I promise the pain will become a dull ache rather than a horrible condition that demands all of your time and energy.

Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: tryingmybest on July 19, 2011, 05:35:38 AM
 I really think it has to do with the whole "man" thing. Years ago when we were agriculturally based when a boy got to a certain age he switched his primary parent from the nuturing Mother to his Father. He became "a man" and did man's work with his father. He didn't feel the need to break away from his FOO origin and a wife left her "fathers house" and came to her husbands, which was actually her husband's family home.

Now Dad goes to work in an office and Mom remains the primary parent in many cases, right up until his first serious relationship when God forbid his significant other get the impression he is a "momma's boy".

my son has done the pull back, and I honestly don't think his fiancé has a thing to do with it. I really think in his mind if he pushes to stay close to his FOO he is acting like a Mamas Boy, because I am, like all of us are - the center that makes the family work. It's really easy to blame this all on my future DIL but it wouldn't be fair. I'm just looking back on the years of always being there for him, and feeling more then a little resentful, thinking I deserved better.


Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: luise.volta on July 19, 2011, 07:35:40 PM
If we only got what we deserved and have, by the way, earned. Sometimes it just isn't in the cards. Sending love...
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: justus on July 20, 2011, 07:06:25 AM
Trying, I think you are right. I also read someplace that girls workout those boundary issues with their M as adolescents because they tend to clash more and as women, they need to know where the boundaries are, while boys just learn to tell their M what they want to hear and then do what they want, because the M isn't stepping on anyone's toes, so no harm no foul. So, when the boy grows up and gets married and he hasn't worked out those issues, he has no clue where to begin when there are now toes to be stepped on. He just continues to do what he has always done, but that doesn't work anymore and he makes a huge mess of things, or I should say he facilitates the mess. And, he doesn't understand what the big deal is, he doesn't get the problem.

Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: pam1 on July 20, 2011, 08:51:22 AM
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1863282,00.html

I thought this article was interesting and it ties into tryingmybest point.  It does not seem very unusual for males to have weaker relationship skills nowadays.  My grandfather likes to say "men can only handle one woman at a time."  I really do not think it is true.  It seems for whatever reason men are not held to the same standards as women.  I've heard people discuss promotions at work and whenever a female was involved, her niceness level was always assessed.  Whereas males did not need to meet this niceness requirement. 
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: herbalescapes on July 22, 2011, 07:16:22 PM
Good luck keeping a happy outward appearance.  I think that is essential for not escalating a holiday disagreement into an actual rift.  Maybe to your DS and DIL getting together the weekend before TG is just as good and they would be truly baffled if you complained.  Maybe there are bona fide reasons for them to favor her family for the holidays that you are not privy to (someone has a mental illness).  Many times when a couple marries, both extended families expect things to be split evenly or as close as possible, and that doesn't always work.  If you've raised more than one child, you know you can't treat them exactly the same.  How do you pick out Christmas presents fairly?  Do you spend the same amount of money on each or does each child get the same number?  Either way you do it, one child can claim the other method as proof of favoritism.  Married couples have to compromise on many things.  Maybe spending holidays with her side was a compromise for something else (you can go to your fraternity reunion on MY birthday, but then we get to spend Christmas with my family or you can spend the tax refund on your expensive hobby, but then we get to spend Thanksgiving with my family).  It may seem to an outsider that the DIL is excluding her ILs, but there could be more to the story.  My own friends would mock me no end for advising someone else to assume no insult is intended, but that is what I would suggest. 
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: Pen on July 23, 2011, 12:57:06 PM
I agree that compromise is necessary in making holiday plans, but I think the schedules of the ILs should be taken into consideration before making deals with DH or DW. We ILs might not be available the weekend before or after, or perhaps we're planning on taking a cruise & won't even be home. The assumption that lame old MIL & FIL are just sitting around waiting for DS & DIL to grace us with their presence is often wrong. In my case, I work long hours, and putting on a Thanksgiving dinner, for example, the weekend before would not be enjoyable for me. Also, our DD isn't available at that time so I'd have to cook a second big meal on the actual day of Thanksgiving to accomodate her schedule. I think some years DH & I should get first choice on holidays!

Some of us MILs know for sure that DIL is excluding us. It certainly isn't speculation on my part, I've heard it loud and clear. We come last, DIL's FOO comes first. That's how it is; we accept it, or we don't see DS. The reason we don't have any rifts regarding holidays is because DH & I always fit ourselves in around DIL's FOO's schedule and never say a word.
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: lancaster lady on July 23, 2011, 02:25:23 PM
I told my DD I wanted to go away at Christmas , as the last one was awful without all the family .....
the first thing she said was ...''What about me ?'' ....she is 29 .
When do we ever plan anything where we come first ?
Oh yes I know ....our funeral ...!
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: Pen on July 23, 2011, 07:14:22 PM
Good one, LL! Although how would one ever be sure? ;D
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: Rejected on July 24, 2011, 07:20:06 AM
When there has been contention and strain in a relationship between a young couple and their parents, it really is frustrating for the child when their parents demand that it is their turn for the holidays. With most younger people (and still some older ones) if they are told to do something, they tend to do just the opposite. Do you do anything fun during the holidays? or is it just eating and then sitting around and talking until dessert? Do you play games? Watch movies? something that might interest your DS and DIL a bit more?
I agree with Justus, make other plans for the holidays and eventually when you back away your DS or DIL will come around again(it may take a year or two), however, there are some situations where that bridge is burned and they will never come around, but if they are willing to spend some time with you, even in a neutral place, than I don't think the bridge is burned in your situation. There has obviously been extremely hurt feelings (on both ends) and possibly your DS & DIL no longer feel welcome in your home which is why they have chosen a "neutral" zone to share it with you.  In my situation my MIL will always have her OS and DIL over at her house for holidays (or she's over at theirs because they have kids and we don't) and both my DH and I absolutely refuse to voluntarily spend time with OS and other DIL, so if my MIL wants to spend any holidays with us it's going to be before or after the holiday and you can bet your bottom that she throws a fit because it's not on the holiday.  Our counselor has told us that it is more than okay that we're not spending the actual holiday with her, but as long as she does get a visit and knows that we're thinking about her and that she's loved is enough.  However, I do not feel comfortable in her home, as every time I've been there my DH and I have had to endure constant jabs, being made fun of, laughed at, and being told what to do (aka my MIL's 'loving' advice) so entering her house is like entering a dark cave with all kinds of boobie-traps...eek! So as you can see at my MIL's house during the holidays it's an eat, sit and visit (which is usually negative attention towards my DH and me), then dessert. There is one family game that they love to play where my MIL also singles me out and laughs so hard whenever she kills one of my pieces and apologizes to whoever else she may kill. What a great way to spend a holiday don't you think? :-\  I do prefer to go out to eat in a neutral area because I don't want my MIL disrespecting me in my own house, my haven, either.
I am very sorry you are on the brunt end of this and you give me some insight as to how my own MIL might be feeling. Thank you for that. I don't know your story or your background, so I'm sorry if my two cents is irrelevant. It's just a different view from a DIL and I'm very sorry if I've offended anyone.
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: Pen on July 24, 2011, 07:40:21 AM
Sorry your holidays with the ILs have been so horrid for you, Rejected. What you described does not sound fun to me at all!

My situation is a bit different, but I appreciate your input.
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: Pooh on July 24, 2011, 07:52:47 PM
Herbalescapes, I couldn't find where anyone officially welcomed you.  If they did, well then let me add mine.   If no one let you know, please take a moment to read the Forum Agreement.  We ask all new members to do so, not that anything is wrong with any of your posts.

Welcome.
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: Keys Girl on July 24, 2011, 08:20:12 PM
Amflautist, I can remember the early day of my marriage, when my ex-husband and I spent Christmas Eve and Christmas Day traveling all over hell's half acre within one city to keep both sets of parents happy that they were getting their fair share of our time.  Seems like that kind of consideration went out the window with the rotary telephone.

I think what would bother me is the whole "Neutral Place" meeting condition seems to me like it's "anywhere except your home/turf".  I would take that ball and run with it and make arrangements to help serve Thanksgiving dinner (or something like that) at an home for the aged, sick, or homeless and invite your son and DIL to join you.  That's the only invitation I would offer, I wouldn't offer another invitation to my home that is likely going to find it's way to the bottom of the barrel and if they choose not to accept the invitation, then I would respect their (foolish) choice.

Good luck, the holidays are always difficult, I have found that make new traditions that I can keep to as the years go by to be helpful, who knows if it catches on you can invited DIL's family to join you next year.  The more the merrier.  Get t-shirts printed with the year and get a catchy name for your group.  I doubt that you'll have trouble keeping a smile on your face when you look at the other faces of so many people who are hurting in so many ways that I know will be happy to see you.

I don't mind "Neutral Places", but I get to do the choosing otherwise I won't be in attendance if you want to put those kinds of conditions down!
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: tryingmybest on July 25, 2011, 04:27:39 AM
Absolutely. What bothers me so much about this "time of the life" is the notion that somehow we all have to jump through hoops in order to be awarded the gift of our DS and DIL presence in our lives, and even then it will be on their terms - and if we attempt to actually express our wishes then whoosh we are difficult controlling mothers in law. But let there me a problem, then they are at the front door looking for help and all those "rules" are forgotten. then it's back to the rules of childhood - Mom has to take care of me!
I know it's childish but my feelings at the moment are if DIL's foo gets first place for the good stuff, they need to be the first in line to step up and deal with the problems.  :o
I'm telling my-self I'm detaching "with love" but in reality I am angry and tired of being treated badly. My DS was a difficult kid to raise and I did what needed to be done and he got past the problems. Now some other family gets to benefit, and some other mother gets "first place" and I resent it.
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: lancaster lady on July 25, 2011, 06:35:04 AM
TMB

you just summed up my life in the first paragraph .
Also my FDIL FOO didn't step up and deal with any problems ........my thoughts are, when the problems are passed ,
will I also be a thing of the past !
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: tryingmybest on July 25, 2011, 07:26:58 AM
 >:( What I am really struggling to do is to figure out where I am in this whole process. I know my son is distancing right now because he sees me as the Mom figure being, I don 't know connected to the boy he's trying to escape from being. May-be it's them trying to establish dominance..I have been trying to figure this all out for over two years now and I'm frankly sick of it. They're the adult until they need something then they are the kid., and I'm the yo- yo. I think we should all move into a MIL commune, where we can finally make it all about US!
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: Pen on July 25, 2011, 08:10:00 AM
A community of crones! The senior females of a society (sometimes known as "the white haired") used to be revered for their knowledge and wisdom. When I read Women Who Run With the Wolves a few years ago I realized that older women in our society are not valued as they were in times past. As I rapidly approach "cronehood" I see it first hand.

I wonder how many difficult MILs would be less so if they knew they would be valued as they aged? I'm sure some MILs have been hellions their entire lives, but IMO some are just reacting to suddenly becoming unimportant and irrelevant. In those cases a bit of consideration from the youngsters might go a long way towards soothing a troubled relationship.

However, in most cases we must make respect and relevance happen for ourselves, as Luise has done. I think a lot of our pain comes from feeling as if we put in years and years of service to others w/o any acknowledgement or gratitude. We know we're not immortal, and we won't get those years back, so when we are suddenly deemed irrelevant it's as if the major portion of our lives was for naught. Waiting for others to value us just adds to our frustration and sorrow; we have to do it for ourselves.

Yup, big talker here...one day I'll actually walk the talk! I am learning, slowly.
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: Rejected on July 25, 2011, 09:03:44 AM
My take on the relationship between my MIL and me is that she has every right to behave the way she does, BUT I have the right not to accept her behavior if I feel that it is violating my rights, which 90% of the time it is. Therefore I avoid contact with her as much as possible. My DH has tested the waters on numerous occasions after some time has passed and she still disrespects us, and so the limited contact continues. She has every right to feel the way she does, act the way she does, and she doesn't have to change if she doesn't want to, but again I don't have to tolerate it. She cannot treat others the way she does AND expect people cater to her. She can't have her cake and eat it too. I'm not making my MIL jump through hoops, she's made her own bed and now she can lay in it. The ball is in my MIL's court. When she decides she can act like an adult herself and show respect to my DH and me as adults, respect our own family unit, and respect us as individuals then she can have a relationship with us.
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: amflautist on July 25, 2011, 09:14:46 AM
Keys, I love, love, love your advice.  Taking our meeting into a neutral territory that I choose.  Now why didn't I think of that?  I'm going to work on that idea.  I don't know where we'll land, but I know it won't be at a restaurant chosen by DS and DIL.   A mountain high Thank You for your counsel!

Pen, a community of crones.  I could go with that.  I remember that my mother used to spend hours in the kitchens of her neighbors - and they spent hours in her kitchen.  They called it something like coffee klatch.  I doubt they were getting the gratitude from their families they wanted, but at least they had each other.  As a society, we seem to have lost that neighborhood closeness, that neighborliness. 
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: tryingmybest on July 25, 2011, 12:37:49 PM
Crone Power! I love it, I think we need T-Shirts!   ;D
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: luise.volta on July 25, 2011, 01:21:30 PM
I think the being hurt and angry is absolutely necessary for us to get past our expectations and knowing we deserve better and have done a good job. We just have to be careful not to get stuck there. Tricky.
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: o.b.sikhquus on July 25, 2011, 02:00:29 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on July 25, 2011, 01:21:30 PM
I think the being hurt and angry is absolutely necessary for us to get past our expectations and knowing we deserve better and have done a good job. We just have to be careful not to get stuck there. Tricky.

More wise words by you Luise. 
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: TheChoiceIsYours on July 25, 2011, 07:38:38 PM
Pen, I really liked what you said and it's true. I think I'll get that book!

My OS has done the same distancing thing and I wish I had found this forum earlier. But then again, it was the fact that I was going through it that drove me to do a search. I had actually found Luise's old website first and that lead me here. I then read and read for about two weeks before actually joining up.

I thought I did something wrong before finding this site....I just didn't know what though! I was at a total loss in trying to figure out why my OS was distancing himself from me. Now I know that it's just how things go majority of the time, and that it from something I did or didn't do. I find great solace in that  :)

As for DIL, I had a falling out with her about two weeks ago. We both gave eachother the silent treatment afterwards. But lo and behold, she made first contact with me just yesterday. That made me feel good, but not in an evil way or anything. I just felt that we are both coming to terms and see eachother as human beings with feelings. In other words, that we WILL have our disagreements from time to time, but that not all hope is lost when a disagreement occurs. Just like with any other relationship in life.

The level of respect I have for my DIL has gone way up after this, as I hope her level of respect has also gone up for me. It's all about learning and accepting eachothers differences, and realizing that every single one of us is just seeking love and acceptance, above all else.



Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: tryingmybest on July 26, 2011, 03:32:22 AM
Beautiful!  ;)
Title: Re: The seasons they go 'round and 'round
Post by: Pooh on July 26, 2011, 05:35:55 AM
I think that's great!

I think sometimes we forget that we don't always agree with the people that we have great relationships with.  I can have a spat with my best GF, we talk about it, agree to disagree and then continue shopping!  I think it's a good lesson that we all remember that if we can have a disagreement with someone we really get along with, then we can have a disagreement with someone we don't get along with so well and need to learn to let it go and move on just like our healthy relationships.