DS just told me that DIL cannot like us because she sees us in competition with her FOO.
Many of you suggested that very thing on the site through the years, but it seemed far-fetched to me since DIL's FOO is wealthy, provides goodies and experiences beyond what we can do, spends much more time w/DS & DIL than we do, etc. etc. DH & I know we can't ever compete, so we've kept a low profile. However, something has always felt "off" to me. DH said it was just me being a typical jealous MIL and nothing was really wrong, so I tried to let it go.
DS essentially said that DIL wants her FOO to be first in DS's life and for his FOO to fade away...and it annoys her that DS insists on keeping up a relationship with us. Although I'm glad to have my intuition validated, it makes me sad. I guess I had still hoped that as DIL grew more secure in her marriage, and more comfortable with us, she'd see that we were just nice people who weren't into playing possessive games or inflaming drama.
This knowledge won't change the way we treat DIL. We will continue to be our nice, accepting selves and ignore her sometimes rude treatment of us. I think we'll be more relaxed around her, actually ;) DS told us to not worry about spending a lot on her for Christmas (that's how this whole conversation got started in the first place; I asked him for gift suggestions.) He also said that her FOO gave him & their other SIL generic, cheap gifts every year so there was no reason to go out of our way to get something thoughtful for DIL! We'll give her a lovely gift, but not go overboard.
So we'll save a little time & money...not a problem! Right now I'm just glad that at this moment DS loves us & wants to maintain a relationship with us. And I'm not delusional. Whew!
P - My experience of you is that you don't have a jealous bone in your body. What you have described here has been dismay and hurt. Your expectations were just those of continuity and mutual respect...like most of us on WWU. Our adult children call in their own life lessons and it is, or at least it was for me, a tough job to get that. They either have to shift loyalty or triangulate. That's a lose/lose. We needed to help with their early lessons...and never dreamed we might one day inadvertently become 'the problem'. One they have to work though on their own. Sending huge hugs...
It sounds weird to say "Congratulations!" but that's actually how I felt reading your post. I think those of us here that have gone through your similar situation of not really doing anything majorly wrong, secretly long for an answer. Although we know better than to ask the why because many times there just isn't one, getting a confirmation that you truly haven't done anything wrong and it's just the other person's irrational thinking process, feels good.
I'm very glad your DS is choosing to remain in your lives. That confirmation and his words that DIL doesn't like him continuing his relationship with your family, means he really is standing up to her in his own way by continuing the relationship. I know she is his choice, but bless him...it must be difficult on him to have to stand up to her.
I'm glad you feel your intuition was confirmed, but I have to say, it bothers me to hear a husband talking about his wife like that. She is his wife and he should be supporting her, not tearing her down like that. They have to work out their problems together. He needs to be talking to her about that situation and something like that should be kept private between husband and wife. It sounds like they need to see a marriage counselor to both work on their issues.
Sarah, it seems to me that years of thinking you are delusional while the DIL and DS work on things is long enough. Congrats Penn on the confirmation that it was not all in your head for all those years!!
I offer my congrats also.. I know how it feels to be kept wondering. You know something is wrong, but no one will tell you. I've been through all that. It makes you crazy trying to figure out what you did or said.. and the horrible feeling of walking on eggs, but not knowing what the rules were. It's a relief when it all comes out and you learn that you aren't the crazy one.
I appreciate your comments, everyone.
Sarah, I actually agree with you! That's why we refused to butt in & sent DS back home to work it out with her years ago when he came to us ranting about DIL's FOO's shunning of us (see past posts.)
I simply think DS is sick & tired of it & felt we finally deserved an explanation after years of staying out of the drama & believing things had improved. He has watched silently while we treat her with respect and kindness only to be dismissed by her. He knows money is tight for us right now & didn't want us going all out, year after year, for someone who didn't appreciate (or want) our gifts.
He didn't really tear her down, he just let us know that that's how she is & to not expect more. I told him we loved them both, admired their accomplishments, and hoped that in the future she'd understand we weren't part of any competition.
They do have things to work on, but in the meantime I'm glad (sort of) to know for certain where we stand.
Pen, you are an absolute saint to cope with this all this time - with grace - and still be able to tell your son that you "love them BOTH". Frankly, I don't think I could stand to be in the same room with your DIL. My hat is off to you. You have lost nothing. A relationship with a DIL like that is not worth having. But you are a saint. It strikes me that the really sad thing is your son having to put up with that kind of selfishness and immaturity in his life partner. I don't think I could possibly be happy if my spouse were so insecure and jealous.
My opinion is that it is better to talk about things honestly than to keep pretending. So what your son said to you is the best thing, I think, to clear the air with you. The truth is the truth and now that you know, you can act accordingly and let go of any anxiety or expectations that she will be more friendly. Better to know the truth than to be lied to. DIL may come from a narcissistic family where she is never good enough and the pressure to be mom or dads "lackey" is intense. I know many adult children who are expected to be tied to the FOO forever and above the spouse or the in-laws and even their own babies. If you don't feel loved or good enough by mom or dad, you can end up constantly trying to earn mom or dad's affection as an adult. Many narcissistic families set things up this way so that the adult children are constantly paying attention to mom and/or dad.
Even though this had to be painful to hear, i think it would be better than constantly trying to figure out what is wrong. i get hurt every time we spend time w/DS and DIL but have to bear it to see the grands.
Think we are having a nice time and something always goes wrong - or she manages to get in a zinger to keep us in our place.
The idea of a sit down talk is kinda a waste - don't feel that DIL would be honest in her dislike of us. The truth might just be nice.
I consider myself lucky in that I have not had to deal with this nonsense for going on 5 years now. That's how long it's been since I last spoke to my son's wife. (notice I will no longer give her the title of DIL). I am also blessed that I have a son who has kept me in his life by bringing the Grands to see me and to celebrate holidays. They were with me at Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve and on Easter. He has also recently brought up the idea of my husband and I going with him and the kids on an outing to the zoo.. which will be very nice. I know that this solution wouldn't work out for everyone, but for our family it has worked very well. I am not pivey to the dynamics between him and his wife, nor do I wish to be, so I have never asked him how she feels about it. In fact, she is never brought up.
I often marvel at all of the different dynamics that play out in families...some are funny. An example is my DS, Our Webmaster, Kirk, and his wonderful S. O. of 20 years. They seldom come to see me together. Why? Because they each want to have me all to his/her self! LOL! I don't care, as long as I get to see them! :D
Hi pooh pen luise it is Artlady. I've been gone for almost 3 years I guess lost track of time . No changes worse then before . Hope you have good news Miss you
We are here, sending love to you! For me, what changed wasn't the outer situation. It was an inner shift that brought me autonomy and peace...finally. I no longer give a rip! :D
Quote from: artlady on July 11, 2015, 10:03:49 AM
Hi pooh pen luise it is Artlady. I've been gone for almost 3 years I guess lost track of time . No changes worse then before . Hope you have good news Miss you
Hey ArtLady! Missing you but glad to hear things are not worse!
Hi to all! I've been out of touch for awhile. Best wishes to everyone! ArtLady, good to see your post :)
Things with my DIL/DS are not much improved but not much worse either. They and DIL's FOO continue to build wealth as DH & I are hunkering down in anticipation of retirement cost-cutting. In a healthy relationship money wouldn't be an issue, but this crowd flaunts and we cannot keep up, so we're not "fun" like DIL's FOO. I sense that DH & I are slipping away more and more...and it hurts because, as I've posted previously, we don't have any other family around (due to death, divorce, moving, marriage, etc.) I try not to be resentful...though still dealing with a bit of envy, I'm afraid :(
It just occurred to me after reading posts in another thread that DS and DIL, like some of the couples mentioned, also married before DS finished college. DH & I were fully supporting DS at that time, and continued to help after the wedding, so our dynamic might have been affected by that, although we were very careful to treat both DS & DIL as fully grown adults.
Also, I have not lucked out in the female IL/SM department. From SILs to SM to DIL to my first MIL I seem to have drawn an unfortunate hand. Each of these women who have married/birthed the men in my life have done their utmost to keep me shut out. The men (DB, DF, DS) have kept in touch somewhat but they get tired of having to maneuver around their wives, so contact has become less and less. I don't contact often because I don't want to appear needy/clingy...to paraphrase Lorelai Gilmore, "hey, Humpty-dumpty, those are eggshells." I know, I know.
Trust me, I'm not a threat - not rich or powerful, not gorgeous, not particularly talented in any one field...just a normal, average woman who wanted a happy, healthy family. Acceptance of my situation, finding my way back to once-loved activities, and practicing gratitude all seem to help when I remember to do them ;)
And retirement - yikes, another challenge! I'm needing a new job but just want to cruise for awhile, lol.
Hang in there Pen. Remember, no one defines your worth but you! ((Big Hugs!!!))
This thread is filled with inspiration. Glad I had a minute to check in. Thinking of you all. :)
Hi, P! :D
Wow, time flies when you are in the wilderness away from wi-fi, lol. DH, DDD & I spent a few weeks on vacation. It was great to have a change of scenery and not be hemmed in by school schedules - freedom! I'm glad to be back with my WWU friends.
Back to reality - got the word from DS regarding sharing/trading holidays, access to potential GC, etc. Not looking good for us :( I know I should not show my emotions but I was caught unexpectedly after a very rough, emotional few days w/DDD and I let a couple of tears fall in front of him. DIL & her Ps were present but I hope they didn't see...humiliating :(
A wise friend has suggested I say the following when I get a chance to speak w/DS again:
"DS, I'm glad you get to spend time over the holidays w/DIL's FOO in their home country. How exciting! I want you to know that I understand how hard it is to balance everything. We're so proud of you and love you so much. We just want to be part of your life and your future children's lives."
She thinks that letting him know our needs w/o pressuring him or making him feel guilty will be noticed & appreciated. DIL & her FOO are putting enough pressure on him & when he comes to see that we are not the source of his discomfort he'll put his foot down with DIL/her FOO.
Hope she's right, 'cos my heart was broken there for awhile :(
I too was all involved in the "Why do you spend your holidays with them instead of us?" scenario. Then one day a light bulb went off and I started asking "Why are holidays hardwired to certain days?". The first time I moved a holiday was a Thanksgiving a few years ago. We knew it was going to be the last good day for a while because a front was going to settle in and bring rain for days. My DH said he wanted to spend that Thursday in a canoe visiting an island instead of me spending the day in the kitchen cooking turkey and all the trimmings. It was the happiest Thanksgiving day I have spent in years!! We only had sandwiches for lunch but we spent the day being wonderfully Thankful for the incredible weather and the chance to spend the day in such a rewarding way. I spent the next Saturday while it was raining preparing our turkey day feast and we even had my DS and DIL over to enjoy it. Not on Thanksgiving Day but we enjoyed it every bit as much (actually we enjoyed it more because we enjoyed the island trip also). So now my holidays are more at my disposal than at the calendar's command. With this in mind, my question to my DS at this point is not "Are you coming to my house for Christmas?" it is "When can you celebrate Christmas at our house?". Win Win.....I love those!!
Hugs!!
Hi, Still! ;D
I have no problem with non-"traditional" holidays, and your canoe trip sounds wonderful! DH & I would probably go biking or kayaking or even skiing, but our DD is disabled and isn't able to participate - we have to limit our activities to things she's willing/able to do.
DDD has to come to us on the days of the traditional holidays because the staff at her facility is off. She expects the holiday to be on the actual day...no wiggle room there. So, if I also do another holiday with DS/DIL, I'm doing 2X the work :( It's our problem, not DS/DIL's, I realize. However, it hurts to always have to be the ones that lose out one way or the other. Working on that, thanks to WWU, but not over it completely (yet.)
It's a challenge - we have to juggle DD's limits, everyone's food allergies and our finances, but we will come up with something (I hope!) Time to brainstorm and get very creative.
So I have a little different twist on the holidays. We have the aloof DIL who wants as little to do with us as possible. Son seems happy - so it is all none of my business. Yes, her family comes first. We are used to that.
We also have a daughter who is warm, friendly, has never met a stranger. She has a heart as big as all outdoors, and is engaged to a fine young man. He is warm and friendly - and genuinely likes us. Either that or he deserves the next Academy Award for Best Actor. So all is well there.
Last year we drove to her city for Thanksgiving. A long drive, but doable. And Thanksgiving is such an expensive time for her to fly. We had such a good time, DH and I agreed to do it again this year. That was the plan - - for months. Until last week - when I was informed that the fiancé's parents had decided to take their whole family (and our daughter) to the Caribbean for Thanksgiving - and so she won't be in town if we come visit then.
Now the fiancé's family is just fine. They are nothing like what Pooh or Pen have to deal with. We have not met them yet - but by all accounts they are warm, kind, good people. They like our daughter, and she likes them. I am pleased about that. I would not wish this fiancé's mother to deal with an aloof DIL such as we have. Nor would I want our daughter to have to deal with a nasty MIL.
Our daughter wants to be part of their family. And being part of THEIR family and being part of OUR family are NOT mutually exclusive. She can do both - and we will all be the better for it. I imagine I will become friends with the other mother when we meet. And how much healthier it is if the son is not in the middle of two women who have conflict.
This is the ideal situation for all concerned. I know that. And I would not want my daughter to forego a lovely trip to the Caribbean - so DH and I have cancelled our trip to her town. Instead we will take a long road trip (we already have the vacation time blocked off from work - have had for months) - to another part of the country we have never seen. So we are making lemonade out of this lemon.
This is the correct solution. I don't want her to miss this lovely trip with her future family. But . . . . there's just a little piece of me that feels like the kid with her nose pressed against the glass. Comments, anyone???
There is only one way to cure that nose against the window feeling.....plan more for your road trip. Spend time looking for sights to see on your trip. Plan on stopping at parks, going to museums, visiting aquariums, taking historic tours. Make it a plan to hike a new trail, visit an antique mall, take a line dancing class, try zip lining, ride a train, take in a concert. You have time to get in touch with the councils of the small cities you might go through and see if they recommend any special attractions. I went to a little hole in the wall blue grass concert in a really small city a couple of years ago. What talent and only about 50 people there! Planning a trip like that can be fun and it can bring you and your DH closer together. Maybe a romantic evening is in order?
All this boils down to one thing....
What you focus on expands!!
Spend your time thinking about the wonderful time you will be having.
Have a great time!! Hugs!
Pen, I just saw your post from 6 days ago. I think your friend has good advice to praise your son but I feel coming out and saying when do we get to see you is maybe a bit intrusive. I might suggest softening the "demand" into an "ask" instead. And a gentle ask, like we'd love to come visit you OR we'd love for you to come visit -- when might be a good time for you all?
We are in the situation of just doing our own thing mostly. I have stopped caring so much about holidays, except for the religious meaning to me. But I think if my children ever have kids, I am going to be sad not to be "grandma" but rather the "other grandma" or the less than grandma. As many of you write about. I just have a lot of pride that doesn't want/allow me to beg my adult kids to see their babies (the two semi estranged AC are just not nice and are very self centered). Well, will cross that river when we get to it.
GT, my friend did NOT suggest saying "when do we get to see you?" I agree, that would be intrusive!! She didn't suggest even asking for time. Instead she suggested just stating "We love you and want to be a part of your life and have you be a part of our lives." No requests, no pressure, no guilt. He can do with it what he will.
I like what your friend had to say. For us, we actually don't even plan any more around our AC's for holidays. We plan them with our Mother's, extended family and ourselves and then "let" the AC know what is happening when and where. Totally up to them if they want to join in or not. Then we tell them that we will be at home on so and so days, if they decide they want to drop by and to let us know. That's the end of it. We make plans for ourselves now, not them. Would it still be nice to see them? Well sure, but I think I made the statement awhile back, "I took back the holidays for myself!" I love the holidays and guess what? I'm not letting them ruin it for us. They can add to it...but can't take away from it!
Pooh, you are so right!
The hard thing for DH & I is that we have no parents (both our DMs plus DH's dad have passed; my dad lives on the other side of the continent w/his wife near her AC.) We have no sibs or other extended family nearby (we stayed put, they all moved!)
Oh, holidays...how I love and dread you!
Hi Pen, this thread has been going on a really long time :).
What a boatload of disappointment for you as you consider the holidays. We have missed out on holidays with our DD as well, so she could be with BFs large FOO. We started a new tradition to take away some of that pain. We always go out of state to my family or DHs family, and two days after Christmas we go to a lovely city two hours north that DH and I both like, as well as our DS....sometimes. (He's 17 and it could go either way :-\ ) That way we have our own special time away to look forward to. I know your DDD is with you; maybe she would like such an adventure as well. My thinking is that by shaking things up a bit for yourself around the holidays, you may not feel the loss as much. I have a friend whose DS spends the majority of every holiday with DILs controlling FOO. The little time carved out for my friend at holiday time was miserable because DIL would ignore the whole family and was consumed with writing holiday cards or other stress that she would pass on to everyone else. My friend finally decided to change up the holiday and offer a family celebration in October, knowing she would have the actual holidays with other snowbird friends in her retirement community. Not perfect, but better than the former approach. Wishing you the best, Pen :)
Thanks, everyone! I love the friendship and support here. I know my issues have been going on a very long time, but you all are still hangin' in with me :) I am so very grateful.
DDD is the wild card in holiday planning...she might be amenable to a trip, and then again she might be miserable. We never know (this last vacation was awful at the end.)
I think I'll compile a list of local things to do. Honestly, right now I could go for a quiet, home-based holiday with time to read and putter in my art room. With special décor and treats to eat/drink, it will be jolly!