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Dear Wise Women

In the last week or so there have been some comments about how the importance of  setting boundaries.  I am starting to work more with boundaries with my ds and in particular one new boundary is that I have stopped initiating  contact with him but do return calls and am kind and polite when I talk to him.  I would appreciate  hearing what about the nature of the boundaries you are setting and what is working for you and perhaps giving you more peace of mind, joy, well being

Hi Tara, this should be an interesting and informative topic.

I don't initiate contact unless absolutely necessary. Like you I'm warm and interested, & will return calls or texts, etc.

I don't sit and wait for DS & DIL to show - we go ahead and eat at the set time, and if they miss it they miss it.

I don't accept rude comments about me, my family, or my home.

I don't pay for everything when we go out. They can cover their own expenses.

I do sometimes, initiate contact, through emails and phone calls, however, mostly let them call me...they are good at keeping me informed, and I don't give any advice when they share personal things with me...even if I'd feel they are wrong, I'd never tell them so, my theory is to be supportive no matter what happens...they are grown adults, and they are able to work things out on they're own...continually tell myself, it's they're life, they're time, so don't interfer.  If they ask me, my opinion that's different, however, it seems to work pretty good.  Allowing them to initiate contact seems to work best....for us....

They live far away, which is good...however, even if they lived close by, I would never ever just pop in they're home for a visit...
They are busy with they're own lives, and I know how important, it is when you work full time, to have personal down quiet time in your own home...

It would drive me nuts when my mother or mother in law would just drop by and they did it a lot...so, knowing that, I just normally keep a distance...but it comes natural to me to do that, b/c I am like that.

I would never go into my DIL's home and clean unless she asked me to help...I'm a guest in her home, and it is as much her home as my son's, she is the lady of the house...

When my son was growing up, I trained him to be self sufficent, he could cook, do laundry, shop, clean...so, to me, and for me, training a child to be independent is the best....rather then doing everything for him...I didn't want to create a monster for the women he married, so there was no way, he sat around watching TV while she worked and did chores...he pitches in, he always has, even when he was a young boy, we all helped out...

I do the same thing Pen, when I cook, if anyone is late, no matter who it is, we dit down and start to eat, I would never put anyone out, b/c someone was so rude as to not show up on time for a meal....and I would also make it known to them, that we don't do that, when your invited for a meal...it just isn't proper...so, my son pretty much knows how I feel about that...and he or my DIL have never done something like that...and when they are coming, they always call to let me know how far away they are...because they fly in...and my GD seems to enjoy doing that....

When they come to visit, we share expenses, but I always love to treat them...and I also cater to what DIL likes...plus plan day trips that GD would enjoy, and if they don't feel up to going, then we don't...it's totally they're call....

I think this is interesting to think about.  As a DIL, I was trying to answer the question without looking like I set rules out for my IL's & my Mom.  But then I started branching out and I thought about it and all/most of my boundaries apply to EVERYONE.

- I don't go into other people's bedrooms / private bathrooms, I expect mine to be off limits too

- I don't drop in to ANYONE's house, ever and when it happens to me, I don't like it

- If someone wants to come visit me, I don't expect for them to wait for an invitation, nor do I expect them to TELL me when they're coming.  I expect them to say "We were thinking of coming for this weekend, does that work for you?"  And give me enough notice, I'm a planner, and I want to be able to plan the visit.  So don't tell me on Tuesday that you're coming to visit on Thursday for the weekend - I won't be happy.  (I'm looking at YOU MIL.)

- If I'm having guests, I try to plan food / outings that they would enjoy.  If I don't know, then I ask about favourite foods (especially for kids).  It's always nice to go somewhere and know that the host is accommodating you.  I also have an explicit 'deal' - I don't work at your house, you don't work at mine.  So when we have guests, they are treated like guests and are not expected to help in any way.  Now the exception to this is my Mom, because she can't stand to be idle, and she often comes for longer visits.  BUT given the choice between her making supper or her playing with DD - I always tell her to go play.

- I don't talk about money, how much things cost or how much people earn.

- I don't make comments on how other people parent their kids and I respect their decisions regarding food, toys, clothes etc.  I expect my choices to be respected.

- I don't ask for help.  If we move, we hire movers.  If we're doing work around the house, we hire helpers.  If we can't afford it, we don't do it.  If family / friends OFFER to help, I will consider very carefully before accepting.  That being said, I will only offer to help people if I can do it without regret or resentment.

- I'm careful with my pets, I don't let them be pests to our guests.  I don't treat my pet like a beloved child, so I don't expect my guests to either.  That being said, I understand that dogs are dogs, they eat, they poop, they like to do things the same way all the time.  So I don't mind if your clean little dog sleeps in my guest bed with you.  But please keep her off the living room sofa.  I will do the same at your house.

- I try to mesh our schedule with our guests / hosts schedule, but please be aware that the schedule of the littlest ones ALWAYS trumps the adults schedule - no matter where we are.

That's all I can think of for now.  I'll add more if I think of any.

scoop, agreed...very nicely said...your thoughtful and polite...

except for the part of my dog being on the sofa, he's a Bichon, so he doesn't shed...however, I would prefer no one bring they're dogs to my house and I would do the same, if I were visiting, I'd board my dog...or pay someone to take care of him....

unless it's an emergency...that's different...my aunt was a dog trainer, and I come from a long line of animal people, and we're pretty strict, I won't ever do a dog park...don't believe in allowing someone else's dog to drink out of my dogs bowl or visa versa, and dogs are still animals...loved my animals dearly, but they are still animals.  I was simply trained that way due to dog infections and viruses....We bred dobies...at one time...as well, had horses, and other farm animals.  My uncle was a horse trainer, breeder and rode in shows...so I learned a whole lot from my extended family....

Yeah Creme, we bring our dog with us, with the permission of our hosts, and we don't have a problem with anyone bringing their dogs to our house.  We've done dog-sitting for friends too.  The only rule is that we don't allow dogs on the living room sofa, all others are okay.  And if your dog insists, then put him/her on your lap.  It's mostly the claws on the leather that I don't want.

At the IL's, we keep our dog off the furniture too, because that's what they want.  They have a Bichon too and she's a good little dog, but she barks and it drives me bonkers.  Okay, there's the exception to the rule, when DD was a wee baby, we asked the IL's not to bring their dog over because she barks too much (and can't be shushed).  In retrospect, I'm sure this caused all sorts of resentment with them, because I'm pretty sure that DH didn't explain WHY they couldn't bring the dog, he just told them not to.  DD was never a good sleeper and sleep was like CRACK for me, I would do anything to get it.  Also, I threatened that if anyone woke my baby, I would gut them with a rusty knife.

There that made me think of other boundaries, re: babies

- I don't take flash photos of new babies.

- I wash my hands before holding/touching babies.

- I don't touch strange babies at all.

- I don't call new parents too much, for fear of waking them / the baby.  I tell them to call me anytime and why.

- I understand if the parents of any age kid have to get off the phone to handle something.

I'm not one for setting boundaries for what one can do or not do while at my home.  I personally don't see those as true boundaries but as rules.  God knows I was raised with so many rules that they began to replace love. 

I hope that anyone that comes to visit has some common sense and that they use it. I do not tend to associate with many people who are that terribly lacking in common sense or self pride.  The boundaries that I tend to set has more of a slant on mutual respect, and appreciation. 

I will try to be tolerant of individuals likes and dislikes, but will quickly remind my family that I have the same right to have my own dislikes, in the event that they forget. 

If I feel overwhelmed and feel the need to step back while I absorb a mountain of input, I expect others to value my needs and give me my space.

I will not accept being set up for failure especially from a family member. 

If we are being approached for any type of loan or aid, it must be approached in a business manner, with guidelines for interest, payments, etc intact as part of the process.

If I am lied to, I will eventually stop believing in you.

What I find interesting in my situation is that I have boundaries, set by me in response to attitudes by DS & DIL, but they don't have any and DIL's FOO doesn't either. Now I'm a little irked and my need for justice is showing. Time to redirect and reflect. Outside chores are calling.

Or did you mean to say that you have boundaries set by ds/dil for you to abide by while her FOO doesn't seem to have any boundaries set pertaining to their relationship with the couple.

Such good food for thought.  I realize that I have given advice to our kids unsolicited.  That is going to stop. 

I have some questions but will wait until we hear more.

Boundaries have very difficult for me. I have always had a hard time knowing where others leave off and I begin. It's a Pisces thing. With my kids, it was that once they entered the adult world ready-or-not, they couldn't return home except as a guest. And if they borrowed money and it wasn't paid back according to plan, it was the last loan.

I think setting boundaries for myself has been harder than setting them for others. How much and how long and where to volunteer, for instance. It's been very hard to learn to say, "No." 

Tara,

I might add...a boundary for you: tell them that if they have an issue with you, to please CALL you, or try to talk about it in person. My mother and I got past so much b/c we quit with the e-mails and the texting. It's been wonderful...and sometimes face to face isn't all the terrible things we imagine it to be.

You might stave off a lot of the miscommunication that I read about on here.

Quote from: Laurie on January 27, 2011, 08:27:18 AM
Or did you mean to say that you have boundaries set by ds/dil for you to abide by while her FOO doesn't seem to have any boundaries set pertaining to their relationship with the couple.

DS/DIL didn't set my boundaries, I did. Somehow I gathered that DIL wasn't a last minute drop in kind of gal when it came to me or DH. She also didn't seem to like DS talking to me on the phone, so I decided to let him call me which he does when DIL is out of town. We put ourselves on restriction before having to be told, I guess. We didn't want to be the buttinsky ILs from the hot place.

DIL's FOO drops in whenever they like, calls or texts many times a day, gives advice, asks for and gets help from them, etc. In other words, they act like a close, perhaps a bit enmeshed, family. They are DS's shiny, new, fun family. We are treated as odd acquaintances who are occasionally thrown a bone. (I'm a little jealous, yeah.) We've yet to be invited to DS/DIL's home except to help them move which we did twice. We declined their kind invitation the last move, LOL.

Ooh! Courtney you reminded me of another 1 (or 2).

DH and I have 2 basic principles to our marriage. 
They're lines from an old internet joke about what Men wish Women knew.

1 - I can't read your mind.

We've stated this explicitly to each other.  How liberating to stop hinting or huffing and puffing when I wanted help.  Now, I don't expect him to read my mind or notice something, I tell him straight out.  And he always come through for me.

2 - If I say something to you and it can be taken 2 ways, and one of those ways makes you cry, I meant the OTHER way.

Again, it's an explicit  statement of intention.  It sounds stupid to say it out loud, but it really is liberating.  I've even found that it's a good principle to use in Life - that in general people don't mean to hurt us.  (And really, if they mean to be mean, and they fail at hurting me, because I took it the OTHER way, then they've failed and I'm just as happy about it.)

Quote from: Scoop on January 27, 2011, 11:55:32 AM
2 - If I say something to you and it can be taken 2 ways, and one of those ways makes you cry, I meant the OTHER way.

Scoop,

Can you please detail this in an example for me...I think I might be able to put  this to good use with MIL, but I'm not quite clearn on what you mean. Thank you! Thank  you!  :)

Holliberri,  I can't think of any good examples off the top of my head (oh the pressure!) but I think Courtney gave some good examples for you:

'I remember when my kids were little, I did this...or that...'
'Where did you hear about this company?'
'Did you ever try this other brand?'
'Why would you rent the item if you can buy it?'
'When he's crying like that at 2pm, why doesn't he just go for a nap?'.

It's easy to take offense when we don't know where the other person is coming from. When my Mom questions me, I know, deep in my heart, where she's coming from.  With my MIL, it's not so easy, because we have a history of conflict.

Another, not quite the same example, when someone cuts me off in traffic, instead of thinking "what a jerk!" and raging over it, I tell myself, "That person sure is in a rush, I wonder where they're going, maybe they're having a baby (yay!) or maybe they're going to someone's deathbed (sigh)."   In the end, the persons ACTUAL intentions don't matter in this case.  If I take it one way, I'M ANGRY and if I take it another way I'm sympathetic.  At the end of the day, it's better for ME to be sympathetic instead of angry.

I'm also thinking of the posters who think that people post things on FB to annoy them personally.  Thinking like that makes you sad and hurt.  And if that person didn't mean it that way, then you've hurt yourself and done damage to the relationship.  If the person DID mean it 'meanly', well, if you don't take it meanly, then it didn't work.  It's a win-win baby!

Scoop,

I'm sorry, I don't think I was clear enough. MIL cries at the drop of a hat. We were explaining to her that DD had a LONG day for a 7 week old and she cried and said she'd never touch the baby. Or, our friend dies and we need to leave town immediately. She cries.

She hasn't made me cry (Mom taught me crying was kind of useless if I wasn't going to get my way). 

We normally cave, and I'm trying to think of an appropriate, but  different way to handle this. She is so sensitive that she takes everything personally.

Did you and DH have a conversation about "meaning it  the other way" if it can be taken two ways? Do you have to explain the second, different way to interpret something?

Thanks for your help!

Holliberri, she will most likely cry whenever you don't see something her way.. she has most likely gotten away with it and was able to turn things around to suit her need.  If a few tears would work, I'd cry too.  While she is hitting all the highs and lows and becoming quite the extremest, you are bending to her wishes, or at the very least feeling slightly responsible for the endless tears.  To me this is no better then the child that you hear in the store screaming and crying because he was told no when asked for a toy.  To often they learn that if you cry, holler, pout, throw tantrums, you will get your way in the end.  You have no intention of accepting this behavior from your own child, you certainly don't have to accept it from your mil.

You don't need to feel badly about her crying, and the threat of she'll never touch the baby.. that sounds like a old lady that needs to grow up. 

Patient look: "When you are ready to talk about this let me know. Everyone expresses emotions differently and I have learned that problems aren't solved in the emotional arena." 

Scoop,  I think that rule # 2 is funny and delightful.  I took it as a good hearted, give our partner/other  a break kind of approach.
Holliberry, You MIL sounds difficult and not very skillful, at least in the areas you are describing.

Laurie, you have a really good point. I'm definitely perpetuating the cycle by giving into her behavior. I'm just really not used to crying.

Luise, I like what you wrote...I think I am going to try to memorize this, and try to use it next time. That was a very tactful statement, and it still acknowledges her feelings. Thank you!

Scoop's rules could eliminate a lot of hurt feelings. (BTW, Scoop, we do the 2-week 50/50 clean too! It keeps my sanity!)

Pen,

My situation is a lot like yours and I feel extremely jelous of DIL's family and how DS spends more time with them than he does with us. According to DS, DIL knows I feel this way and this is one of the things she holds against me, she told DS to tell me it's not a competition, there's no comparison and I should just get over it. I cannot hide my feelings so be it. Also I think if it wasn't this, she would find another excuse not to have a relashionship with us.

Scoop and Holliberri, I want to say that as DILs you bring a lot of wisdom to this forum and have helped me look at things from a different perspective. It's too bad I can't put much of it into practice because DIL won't give me a chance. If there is any advice you or anyone else can give me as to how I should get over the jelousy I would really appreciate it and try to work on it.

Hugs.

My guess would be that this isn't about your DIL. If I was in the same spot, I would start a journal about every jealous feeling I can ever remember having. When I do that, thoughts usually come out of the wood work. It may not be what you need, of course, just because it works for me. Once I get what it's really about, and sometimes it takes a while...I can usually process it and then the situation that was a mountain becomes a molehill. Sending love...

Hi Barbie,

   I'm so sorry, I have similar issues with dd & I know how much it hurts.  Think back to the person you once were before dc.  Do you remember that girl?  I honestly had forgotten.  I was completely beaten down, for multiple reasons, not just because of dd's behavior.  She was the final straw.   For the time being, try to forget about your ds & focus on yourself.  Imagine going back to pick up that girl you left behind, dust her off & ask what would make her happy.  Find a hobby, go for walks, do some gardening, anything that brings you joy.  Invest your time on people who appreciate you.  When you think of your ds & dil, send them loving thoughts, imagine life is just the way it's supposed to be & then move your attention back to yourself.  That's what I'm learning to do.  I was a SAHM who put all my eggs in the dc basket. There were lots of things I wanted to do & couldn't because I had a chronic illness & always put dh & dd's first.  This is our time now.  We can come & go as we please & don't have to answer to anyone.  Changing my negativity to positive thinking has made a world of difference.  I spent way too much time thinking about problems over & over & over.  I drove dh crazy trying to find answers as to what I'd done wrong & what I should do differently.  I was a doormat, no doubt about it.  I've learned that people don't respect weakness.  I didn't respect myself in that state.  I was pathetic.  I still falter some days, but it's gradually getting easier.   The threads on this board have helped greatly, to know I'm not alone & to learn from other people's experiences.  I feels a little like when I got married & moved far away from FOO.  I was sooo homesick.  But as time went on, I adjusted, & now I wouldn't give up my new home for anything in the world. That's the goal, to be happy & bloom where we're planted.   

"Everything's okay in the end.  If it's not okay, then it's not the end."  Author unknown   

Barbie... I don't know if I can totally agree with Luise on this one.  Your feelings might be quite justified and while yes it is up to you to accept it and move on.. most likely you are feeling the jealousy because you are being slighted as a parent.  I feel with  my own dil, that this is how she wants us to feel, and I also firmly believe that she wants us to take it to anger so she can justify cutting us off.  While your own dil may not want to use the word competition, she has none the same turned it into a game.

If I were to sit and try to mull over in my mind my own feelings, jealousy would have to be one of the top 5 things I listed.  It's not by our own doing, we have not been such horrible people that we can only visit with our son and his wife while her family is in attendance.  Judging time together should not be a competition, but when one person says that all their time will be spent only with FOO, they have turned it very one sided.  And competition or not you will lose at the game your dil is playing.

This is why I did set a boundary that I have no intention of crossing, and that is to decided when and where I will spend time with my dil's extended family.  I will guard my feelings and protect myself from a continued hurt and maybe just maybe one day she will grow tired of the game.

Quote from: Barbie on January 27, 2011, 07:52:28 PM
Pen,

My situation is a lot like yours and I feel extremely jelous of DIL's family and how DS spends more time with them than he does with us. According to DS, DIL knows I feel this way and this is one of the things she holds against me, she told DS to tell me it's not a competition, there's no comparison and I should just get over it. I cannot hide my feelings so be it. Also I think if it wasn't this, she would find another excuse not to have a relashionship with us.

Scoop and Holliberri, I want to say that as DILs you bring a lot of wisdom to this forum and have helped me look at things from a different perspective. It's too bad I can't put much of it into practice because DIL won't give me a chance. If there is any advice you or anyone else can give me as to how I should get over the jelousy I would really appreciate it and try to work on it.

Hugs.

my opinion, it's common to feel extremely hurt and jealous of the fact that they have more time with your son and DIL then you do....

It's also common for the DIL to want to go to her parents home, more then yours, it's where she grew up, where her comfort zone is, however, she should be mature enough to understand your needs as well...and try and be fair....alternating visits and holidays....

and also, this is where your son should tell her, they are my parents to and they need equal time....

Holliberri - you said:

I'm sorry, I don't think I was clear enough. MIL cries at the drop of a hat. We were explaining to her that DD had a LONG day for a 7 week old and she cried and said she'd never touch the baby. Or, our friend dies and we need to leave town immediately. She cries.

...

Did you and DH have a conversation about "meaning it  the other way" if it can be taken two ways? Do you have to explain the second, different way to interpret something?

First off, we did have a conversation about it, I had read the internet joke and laughed about it (and fumed about other aspects) and we talked about how much of a good idea that concept was.  And he said something along the lines of "OF COURSE I don't ever MEAN to hurt you INTENTIONALLY!"  And the 2 kind of go together, so if he says something that I find hurtful, he can't read my mind, so I sometimes say "what do you mean by that?" and then we talk about it, and it comes down to OF COURSE he didn't mean to hurt me.

For your MIL's crying, that's a hard one.  Because, thanks to this forum, I've learned that some people just cry, they can't help it and they're not using it as a weapon against you.  (Of course, some are.)  But, I think your DH needs to talk to his Mom and tell her that he feels bad when she cries, but he also feels manipulated by her tears.  He can even tell her the line about 'meaning it the other way'.  It may be asking too much for him to tell her that it hurts HIM that her first assumption is that he MEANS to hurt her.  And then they need to come up with a procedure or a code word between them.  So if she cries, he'll say "Mom, I mean the OTHER way." or maybe (depending on what she says) she just needs a moment, so he can say "Mom, I'm sorry you're upset, take a moment and we'll continue our visit / see you next time / call you tomorrow / whatever".  But it has to come from HIM.  Again, as far as I'm concerned, these men don't have an adult relationship with their parents, and everyone suffers because of it.

I'm sorry I got off the subject and many thanks to the ones that responded...I've come a looong way and I'm ok most of the times, this jelousy is about the only thing that gets to me every now and then and I want to be able to work through it for ME.

Barbie, don't be sorry about getting off topic, it happens...and also, believe you me, I felt the same way as you do...and it bothered me horrendously when the green envy used to sneak it's way in....so hang in there, it is a tough thing to go thru....

Hugs
Creme

Quote from: Scoop on January 28, 2011, 07:03:35 AM
Again, as far as I'm concerned, these men don't have an adult relationship with their parents, and everyone suffers because of it.

I've been wondering why sons find it difficult to stand up for their FOO...  You make a good point. 

Scoop,

I agree with your last statement. We were at a nice restaurant on Saturday night with people we were going out with for the first time, and DH answered the phone.

It was his family; they wanted to Skype on Sunday (and if you see in earlier posts, he already told them he was going to church--he was lying). So, he lied again, and then told them he was at dinner with some new friends of ours. The conversation should have ended there (minus the lying part). Instead, it went into talk of who these friends were (I'm sure that made them comfortable), what we ordered, what kind of restaurant it was, what OUR  FRIENDS ordered...all while the rest of us were trying to have a dinner conversation. The phone conversation was NOT important.

I asked him to shorten the conversation next time with an "I'll call you back after dinner." He said that would hurt their feelings, and that it is better to err on the side of being rude to friends than it is to err on the side of being rude to family. He simply is unable to communicate with them; he hides behind me or he lies. What issues he tries to address are turned into something they're not.

I feel bad for him at times, but on the other hand, none of it will change until he decides to step it up. He had already chatted with them 3 times this week (and lied the whole time about Skyping). For the most part, he can chat with them whenever he/they want, except he doesn't want to tell them it's not a good time to talk and if  he doesn't feel like talking he can't just say that.

...and my biggest fear? That he might start doing this with me oneday and maybe to DD when she gets older. It's no way to communicate and it isn't fair.

Wow,  I don't care for this boundary idea much its almost like a check sheet at the front door before you enter---"please read." .. ...I feel setting a boundry is good if you are going to have a bunch over and 2 or 3 people in that group just do not get along...then its OK to let them know before hand, ok so and so are coming over as well so "please get along etc."

But when it comes to family and friends again simply applying common sence, along with Love and respect there should not be any problems to have to set boundaries......To each their own.....

Quote...and my biggest fear? That he might start doing this with me oneday and maybe to DD when she gets older. It's no way to communicate and it isn't fair.

That is what I was thinking the whole time I was reading your posting.  In my mind, it's not a matter of what if, but when. 

Someone mentioned up post that men like to see women bicker...it fits their preconceived schema of what women are really like.

I don't think this is DH, but this IS my FIL. He has told us so many times to just  lie to MIL b/c she can't handle the truth. He acts like he's being on our side about it. Then he makes some awful comment about women (so, I might be making an assumption, but I think he puts me in the category with MIL too...I can't say for certain). For some reason, he thinks it is easier to lie to her than to be honest, and he's taught DH to do that, and he doesn't even realize that DH lies to him now, b/c lying to MIL now means lying to both of them).

I assume strength before fragility...I think she CAN handle the truth...she's just never had to.

What kind of relationship can you have if you can't be honest? Plus, I'm proud...REALLY proud...I wouldn't want anyone thinking I couldn't handle something they told me, no matter what it was. It sickens me that someone would just write me off like that, and not respect me enough to tell the truth.

I've notice in my son's relationship with his wife that the more she lies to him, the more he lies to us... I'm assuming that he has begun to lie to her, and now she is lying more to him and us.  Ok, now I need my third cup of coffee

Ah but Holliberri - you are ON to him!  He won't be able to pull that with you, if you don't let him.

My DH always gives his DM the "yeah yeah whatever" - he doesn't say no to her, he just agrees with whatever she says and then does whatever he wants.  He's tried pulling it on me, and I just laughed and said "Did you seriously just try to 'yeah yeah whatever' me?"  He knows that doesn't fly with me (boundaries).

Did you tell him that it was completely unacceptable for him to answer the phone during dinner?  I would have been furious.  There ARE important phone calls, but then you excuse yourself and apologize to your table-mates.

I don't know how to go about negotiating INTO an adult relationship with your parents / IL's / adult children.  I think it takes both sides to be willing, invested participants though.   Re-negotiating a relationship is always hard.

Yes, I told him. He said it might've been important. I said, "But it turned out it wasn't." I'm not sure we got anywhere, but I think he knows I won't allow that again.

We just moved back here a year ago and are just now beginning to make friends, so the dinner date, to me, trumped talking about what we were eating.

I can see from what Laurie wrote, lying begets more lying. Perhaps that is why it is so wrong to do in the first place.

That's another boundary DH & I have regarding DS & DIL: We absolutely will not be involved in lies they might tell each other. DS told us once "Don't tell DIL I spent so much money on ________!" We told him we wouldn't run to tell on him, but neither would we lie if she asked. If the topic came up, we'd be honest. We suggested he come clean since it would be worse for him if she found out later, and lying is no way to start a marriage. As far as I know he followed through.

Pen,

That's awesome. And, if my experience demonstrates anything, leading by example is extremely important in parenting. So, I have no doubt your DS followed through.

I have boundaries that apply to everyone, not just family.


1.  I don't lie to people so please don't lie to me.  Even if I am not going to like it, get it out where we can deal with it.

2.  Don't betray my trust because once you do, you may have one opportunity to earn it back or you may not get that opportunity depending on the offense.

3.  Compromise means both sides being flexible.  I will not compromise when it comes to work ethics, morals or criminal activities.

4.   I like everyone to have an opinion, but don't get angry if I give you my opinion back.

5.   If we have plans and you are going to be late, please let me know and I will do the same. 

6.   If you want to talk to me, then please do so.  But talk to me, not at me.  Talk to me, not down to me.  I may not be Einstein, but I am not stupid.

7.   If I hurt your feelings or say something you do not like, then let me know...I will do the same.  I am pretty toughed skin but forget others are not sometimes.

8.    I like to do things for people.  I do them because I like to, not because I have to.  But I do expect a thank you.  Nothing fancy, a simple "Thank you for thinking of me" works.  I like to do nice things but if I feel you are unappreciative, then I will not do them for you again.  If you don't like me doing things for you, then just tell me and I will stop.

9.    I don't have a problem with people just dropping by my house.  As long as you understand that I may already have plans and have to rush you out.  Also, if you drop in without notice, I will not apologize for having dishes in the sink, laundry that needs to be done and a floor that might need vacuuming.  I work full time and many other activities so my house was clean Sunday...you missed it.  I will not drop by yours unless invited or you tell me you feel the same way.  If you didn't mean it...refer to boundary 1.

10.  I am a very flexible person and very willing to compromise, if possible.  You do not have to love me or even like me, but I expect you to be respectful and civil to me as I am to you.  If you are not, do not be surprised by my reaction. 

11.  I like to laugh and have fun.  If you are always whining or griping about something, I will probably nod my head a couple of times and walk off.  If you don't like that....well then stop whining and griping about everything.

12.  When I go to a restaurant and my waiter is busy, I expect a simple "I'll be right with you."  Nothing spectacular, just acknowledge my presence.  You will still get a nice tip and I will be back.  I expect the same from my Sons, DIL, MIL, Mom, Dad, coworkers and friends.  If I call, text or email or speak to you...I expect an acknowledgement within a reasonable amount of time.  Tell me you are busy and you'll get back with me...then do it.  And refer back to boundary 1 if you are confused on how to answer.  If you don't, then don't expect me to be back.

13.  I like to talk to my family and friends.  It doesn't have to be on a schedule or even once a month.  Just check in every once in awhile.  But I like to let you know that I care, am interested in your life and love you.  If you don't feel the same about me, then I am entitled to not like it and after a long time of this, entitled to reclassify you to another group.

14.  I am a very forgiving person if you are sincere.  I recognize that I screw up too.  But doing something terribly wrong the first time is a mistake...doing it again is a choice. 


That is my main things.  I really am pretty easy going and flexible.  I think most of mine boils down to common courtesy and my expectations of how I want to be treated and treat other people.  I know we say that it is MY expectations...and it is.  But I will also do my best to follow YOUR expectations.  And if they are way off from each other, refer to boundaries 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 11 so we can work it out.

Pooh,

This is really great.  Did you just write this? 

Pens Post :
DIL's FOO drops in whenever they like, calls or texts many times a day, gives advice, asks for and gets help from them, etc. In other words, they act like a close, perhaps a bit enmeshed, family. They are DS's shiny, new, fun family. We are treated as odd acquaintances who are occasionally thrown a bone. (I'm a little jealous, yeah.) We've yet to be invited to DS/DIL's home except to help them move which we did twice. We declined their kind invitation the last move, LOL.

Hi Pen ... This describes my situation to a 'T' ...!!
you will have to give me some hints and tips on how you stay so happy ......!!

I love that boundaries list.....I am 42 an have never had boundaries I have just been a doormat an I am really going to follow your list if you dont mind? Thanks that is so cool:)

Holliberri
Your MIL should have hung up straight away and said I'll call you later ......
The fault is with her I think .

I agree Holliberry, its basic manners.

But Tara, basic manners are different all over the country and all over the world.  Some people burp loudly after a meal to tell their host how much they enjoyed it.  Some people slurp their food loudly to show how much they're enjoying it.  Some people demand no elbows on the table, some people don't think you should use your knife to cut your salad, some people eat their chicken wings with a knife and fork, because they were taught to NEVER eat with their fingers, some people don't care about any of that.  We can't expect anyone else to have the same "basic manners" or "boundaries" as us.

I think that we have to be aware of our own boundaries (and be willing to enforce them, gently at first), but we have to be aware of other people's boundaries and the fact that they don't have to be the same.

Thanks guys.  Yes Tara, I wrote those...lol.  It was kind of funny.  As I was thinking about what my "boundaries" were, it may me realize that they are not person specific (as in DIL,DS, etc.).  It applies to every person in my life. 

Scoop, I agree with you.  Everyone has different manners and boundaries.  And I am very open and respectful of that, IF you tell me.  I don't sweat the small stuff.  If someone is around me burping, I will not say anything.  I may laugh about it later and tell my DH, "Wow", but I will work with it.  If you are from a different country or culture and burp loudly, then explain it...even better.

But when you see basic manners being used with other people, just not you...then you know its personal.

We all live in The Land of Assumptions....very tricky...

Well Scoop, good point, I didn't think of that when I wrote it was basic manners to Holliberry,

but in some cultures it would be considered  not very thoughtful not to let people off the phone who were in
the middle of a dinner out with new friends and trying to have a conversation.

I have no idea about the In Laws culture in question but Hollibery did ask her dh to have a shorter conversation
next time.

I just want to make sure its understood I get all the view points being discussed and appreciate them
8)

This was a good question!  Lots of thought provoking responses.  If, I was asked this before my in law situation my answers would have been very generic.  Like, respect me and others.  But people have different versions of respect lol.

In my dealings with MIL and going to a therapist (fun times, people) this was my list.

- invite my family to events with at least 3 days notice.  And do not attempt to control/undermine/guilt if we say no.
- no calling at work.
- gossiping about me/family to others will not be tolerated.  Zero tolerance.

MIL couldn't get the hang of those 3 at any point. 

This is a great thread, and Pen I hear your frustration my son and his wife have no boundaries. Son comes into the house and immediately acts as though he still lives here, even looks through paperwork on the front of the fridge. DIL's family has a complexly enmeshed relationship with her ,and now with him. As for me, our boundaries are all those listehd above, plus one for me I no longer feel the need " to help". My son FB messages that he was overwhelmed at work  in the past I would swooped in with advice. Now it was " I'm sorry things are tough, I hope they get better soon," Period! If I'm no longer allowed to act like a normal parent, then I no longer have the responsibility and stress that goes along with it. Loving detachment, that's the ticket.

Loving Detachment....I love that!

Trying my Best :
If I'm no longer allowed to act like a normal parent, then I no longer have the responsibility and stress that goes along with it. Loving detachment, that's the ticket.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THE ABOVE !! You are absolutely right ......wish I'd thought of that !!

Good list, Pam1.

I'd like to have 3 days notice as well from my DS & DIL instead of feeling as if they're fitting me in only when someone else has cancelled. It's difficult because I miss DS and have been willing to accommodate their schedules if at all possible just to get a little time with him.

And yes, I say I miss "him" rather than "them" because although DIL has been trying to be polite lately, I doubt her feelings for us have changed that much...I mean, we're still the same people she said she hated a year ago. I doubt she's sitting around missing us!

The feel of "loving detachment" is so different from shut out or rejected. To me, it's very soft and gentle. Lovely...

Maybe I should start signing my emails that way

With Loving Detachment.... Laurie

I have a very independant nature almost to a fault.

I will be spending time in England in June --my 3 sons live there.
I will not be with them for 2 weeks of the time as I will be travelling with a friend.
When I mentioned to my son that my friend wants to hire a car he offered the use of his car.

My first thought was fiance will probably not be too happy about that which I expressed to him.Then he tells me oh her parents will be using the car in August when they visit.

I dont think it is correct to make an offer like that until he has discussed it with her.
A couple of days later he comes back to me and says she shares half the cost of the car so it is her decision too and says it in such a way as if I initiated it.

Well I think she has sort of agreed to it but I let him know that the correct way to do things is to consult her before even offering.
Do I have to set his boundries for him??

Personally I would rather hire a car because of my independant nature.
I am inclined to set boundries for myself to a fault.

My MIL had no respect whatsoever for our privacy so I never want to be like her

Hee!!Hee!! Have learned how to make the faces move so here is one

Oh, if we could set boundaries for others. Can't be done. Sending love...

I don't think I have boundaries with my kids....I don't see them very often.......so if an opportunity comes up I don't set up any boundaries.
To change the subject, how do you get the faces and words to move across the page?   I am not much of a techie.

Catching up, most definitely hire your own car. You don't want anything to mess up your travel plans!

When you are posting a reply, the line above the faces...seven over...is moving. Click on it and the cursor wll be in the middle. Whatever you write goes across the page. Sending love...

Thank you, Luise

[moveGot it, thank youmove]

You can also manually type in commands you would type [scroll] (use the word move not scroll) and then you end your command by typing [/move]   I couldn't use the correct word instead of scroll because then it would have started scrolling everything.. making sense?

[/move]

Who needs someone else's car

That reminds me to add ant traps to my shopping list.

Who needs someone else's car. :

Quote from: Pen on February 03, 2011, 10:35:49 PM
That reminds me to add ant traps to my shopping list.

I had so many ants one year that seemed to gather near the kettle where the smallest drop of sugar dropped.
I cleared the area and threw boiling water over them. I know it sounds cruel but I wonder if ants actually communicate with each other.
We see them touching as they pass in differant directions.
"Dont go there,there is a dangerous woman there."
I have not seen one ant this year.

BTW, Catchingup, I suggest booking the car in advance rather than waiting til you arrive if at all possible. You never know how things can get mixed up. Have a wonderful time in England! I've never been but would love to go.

We had ants in our coffee machine last summer. They built a nest near the water tank. We use it every day, so I have no idea why they decided it would be a good place to settle in.

I'd love to go to England.. maybe Ireland first.. that would be a great vacation.

Ye cannae beat bonnie Scotland for scenery ...you are all welcome ....haste ye back ... :)

My g-ma had aunts in her radio clock, and 15 nests throughout her house. They are attracted to water, and come in on the water pipes and head to the kitchen for sugar.

We found vaseline the cracks they come in from prevents them from coming through. So does baby powder. That depends on how bad the problem is.

I had them in my toilet top in Italy. That's where I learned the vaseline trick.

Also, a bowl of sugar water outside has lured them out of the house, but I was always afraid they'd just like that and repopulate. They also like to come back for their dead. So they must communicate somehow.

That is my dream vacation.  Ireland then Scotland.

Quote from: Laurie on February 03, 2011, 10:58:52 PM
I'd love to go to England.. maybe Ireland first.. that would be a great vacation.

I am spending a week in London then a week in Wales and we cross over at Holyhead in Northern Wales on a ferry to Ireland for a week so shall send greetings to Ireland for you
I will be spending another 2 weeks in London on my return from Ireland.
I am really looking forward to the break.

My son seems to be insisting I use his car for the week in Wales.
It is only about 200 kilometers from London to Cardiff so he can catch a train and spend the week-end with us and drive it back.
He is a sensitive and generous guy.

Cathingup, my sister and brother in law go to Wales and Ireland, he has relatives there, and it is soooooooooo  beautiful, quaint and just picturesque....

Hugs and have a great time....
Creme

Quote from: Pooh on February 04, 2011, 06:10:22 AM
That is my dream vacation.  Ireland then Scotland.

Well if you are in America it does not cost that much  to fly.
We stay in hostels which cost a mere 15 pounds a night including breakfast of cereal. We just need somewhere to "Lay me down to sleep" We buy in bulk from the local Tesco supermarkets and sit in parks with our lunch.Supper is the same--nothing fancy.Cooking facilities are available in all hostels. Internet too so you can keep up with WWU ;D
It is very easy getting round Britain by rail. I buy a Britrail ticket while in London and this cuts costs by a third.

Thanks Creme.  We have set a goal to try and visit there in about 5 years.  Both my DH and I have always wanted to go.

Catchingup, thanks for the tips.  I am all about seeing the local life, not the touristy things, so we usually have a great time without spending tons of money. 

Quote from: holliberri on February 04, 2011, 06:06:12 AM
My g-ma had aunts in her radio clock, and 15 nests throughout her house.

Using that phone again aren't you :)

LOL...truth be told. No. My fingers move faster than my brain.

I'm leaving it like that. It's making me giggle.

I did see your post first before my full first come of coffee.. and I'm reading.. her grandmother has aunts.. ok I can follow that. 15 nest.. I'm thinking bee hive hairdos.. and then when the vaseline came into play.. I scrolled back up to see what led to this posting

Now, that is just poetry in motion for me.  :P

Oh Laurie  ;D 

You all make my day much brighter. Now I'm dreaming of travel thanks to Catchingup, LL, Pooh and Creme and giggling about beehive-haired aunties in the clock-radio with Vaseline thanks to Holli and Laurie.

Pen, you mean radio clock?  Ha ha ha ha  ;D

Wait...I call it a clock radio...is that wrong? Is it dialect?

Quote from: holliberri on February 04, 2011, 06:06:12 AM
My g-ma had aunts in her radio clock, and 15 nests throughout her house.

Ummmm.....

Okay...that's 2 mistakes! LOL. ((((blushing))))

Ha ha ha....I was being funny when I said that to Pen....I thought you had already seen it!   ;D

Nope...but then again, it's easy to do that to me...lol!

Thanks for the tip Laurie.

OK ladies, talk me down please! I just stopped myself from texting DS.

I do not want to bug DS, but he's left a couple of vague texts regarding upcoming plans with us after sending one fairly definite one. Apparently DIL nixed that idea. I haven't heard one peep for a couple of days now. I'm so tempted to call/text and pin him down. I know it's counterproductive but I'm really sick of this! There are other people involved, such as DDD who is hurt and confused.

Grrr!

I would not text or email him.. I'd call him and catch a time when he has a few minutes to talk.  Knowing me, I'd ask him to spell it out why there are a change of plans.. it could be legit..

I know, but I am having a hard time staying away from the phone! My text-y fingers are itchin' bad, Laurie, real bad.

Oh I know that feeling.. and then my fingers seem to develop a mind of their own.. but trust me the phone call is so much better.. and you'll be able to hear if he is handing you a line of crap.

Thanks, Laurie. I'll wait until tomorrow and see how I feel. Whew, dodged that one!

What bothers me most about my relationship with my ds and dil, is it's always the same thing over and over and over again.  You just get so tired of dealing with the same crap day in and day out.. that's when you begin to think that they are never sincere and simply playing games.

Did you make it okay, Pen? I know what itchy fingers does to me sometimes.

When you call, can you say something like, "Are our plans still a-go or not? If not there are other things I need to do."

Idk if its appropriate, but it usually gets me a definite answer and an explanation. I only use it when I know someone is about to back out on their plans.

Good luck!!! If you haven't texted, please reward yourself with chocolate. I have to do that.

Quote from: Laurie on February 04, 2011, 10:11:29 PM
What bothers me most about my relationship with my ds and dil, is it's always the same thing over and over and over again.  You just get so tired of dealing with the same crap day in and day out.. that's when you begin to think that they are never sincere and simply playing games.

Laurie,  I know its a different situation altogether, but i feel that about my son:  not sincere and always playing games.  It took
me awhile to realize it. 

Thanks for your support, everyone. I did make it til morning w/o calling or texting and don't have the text-y itchy fingers now. Can you believe there's no chocolate in the house??

I've not decided how to handle this. My friend says to make it clear to DS & DIL that I need a couple of days notice if they plan to come down. DIL is rather persnickety and critical so it makes me feel better to have my proverbial ducks in a row. How do I let them know that w/o calling or texting? I'm so afraid to call. How pathetic is this to be afraid to talk to your own son?

What really hurts is that DIL's FOO gets all the celebrations now. He's our DS but they get to fete his birthday and we get shoved to the background. I'm so tired of this. DS is dancing around, trying to please DIL & her FOO and keeping us on a string as well. It really sucks.

I would love a free pass of a couple of days to sit DS down and let him know how I feel w/o repercussions. Then I'd "flashy thing" him (Men in Black.)

Quote from: Tara on February 05, 2011, 07:43:59 AM

Quote from: Laurie on February 04, 2011, 10:11:29 PM
What bothers me most about my relationship with my ds and dil, is it's always the same thing over and over and over again.  You just get so tired of dealing with the same crap day in and day out.. that's when you begin to think that they are never sincere and simply playing games.

Laurie,  I know its a different situation altogether, but i feel that about my son:  not sincere and always playing games.  It took
me awhile to realize it.

That's a really good way to put it.  I feel like that too.  It's always a game.

I agree with your friend, Pen.

Can you still plan your own bday celebration with him?  Will he be open to that?

Pen,

I think your friend is right, its not too much to ask for a couple of days notice. 
I do really understand about feeling afraid to talk to your ds and for me my dil as well.

One skill I'm working on with ds and even dh, etc. which learned from the book:  "The wizard
of oz and other narcissists" and also from a book recommended on this site called "A wolf
in sheeps clothing" is to simply and straightforwardly ask specifically for what you want and with
ds it was:  "I want you to acknowledge when I send you a gift, it can be a phone call, email or text
message.  Its good manners and completes the cycle of giving."  (He hasn't acknowledged the gifts
I send him for years till recently when I told him this this...

What makes us always think twice before we speak to  our own sons ? I used to be so spontaneous ....now I'm so.hesitant ...... I know whatever I say will be repeated to DIL ,and who knows which way she will twist it.  Why can't we be our true selves? 

We can LL.  I am not perfect, and there is always things I can work on about myself, but I refuse to pretend I am someone else. 

I think sometimes we need to just accept people and we could get along better.  If BOTH would accept each other and improve on some things.  If I could get my DIL to just say, "You know, I know I can be selfish, and I know I can be difficult" and me say, "Well yeah...and I know I can be stubborn and I know I can be too tough" and we both could say, ok but we can still get along by respecting each other...now that's out of the way, what's for lunch?

Pen,

I think Tara has a very good question...can't you plan something separate? I see no reason DS couldn't celebrate twice. That's what we do, when everyone can't manage to get together at once. Two cakes is never a bad thing!

My b-day and DH's b-day are one day apart, so this "where are we celebrating OUR birthday" was kind of a sticking point. We've decided to just celebrate twice, just like the holidays.

Do you think this is possible?

That's what I've been trying to do, but I've been unable to get a commitment from them on a day. We finally did set a date, but only after I texted DS and asked point blank. He wanted to come over immediately and when I said I needed some notice he got huffy. Apparently he and DIL don't expect anything special. However, I know that once they come over it'll be weeks before we see them again so I suggested putting all the birthdays that are around this season (DIL, DD & DS) together in which case a bit more fuss needs to be made (DDD is like a child that way.)

If DS had let me know a few days in advance, we could have had a fun, casual get-together without drama. Now I look like a pathetic, demanding, whiny old woman planning a "craptacular" no one wants.

Also, it hurts to have DIL's FOO take over. They pretend we don't exist and that DS is their son. Anything we do after they've done their celebration is sort of after the fact and sad. I don't want to be patronized or pitied, I just want to celebrate my son's birthday.

Pen,

Hm...this might be playing a game here. But could you plan something before her FOO throw their "Event of the Season"? Beat them to the punch? It might not compare, but it would be first.

I could be misinterpreting this, so please tell me if I'm going after a red herring...but you said he wanted to come over immediately. Since you've mentioned he thanks you for not intruding...do you think he needs to come over for some other reason? Just to spend time with you, and not for his birthday? Is it possible that  what he needs is just some downtime from that high life (so to speak), and that could be the best thing you give him? I won't dwell on that too long, b/c if you need notice, he needs to respect that.

Also, is it possible that you just pick a date from now on...hold the ball a little longer in your court? "I wanted to celebrate your sister's birthday as well as your own and DIL's, and I'm thinking of this date: ______? If that doesn't work is there another date that would work for you? I'd like to make this special."

I don't think that's what you look like, by the way. But hey, what do I know...I'm just planning a craptacular for my kid's first birthday!

Quote from: Pen on February 07, 2011, 08:30:40 AM
That's what I've been trying to do, but I've been unable to get a commitment from them on a day. We finally did set a date, but only after I texted DS and asked point blank. He wanted to come over immediately and when I said I needed some notice he got huffy. Apparently he and DIL don't expect anything special. However, I know that once they come over it'll be weeks before we see them again so I suggested putting all the birthdays that are around this season (DIL, DD & DS) together in which case a bit more fuss needs to be made (DDD is like a child that way.)

If DS had let me know a few days in advance, we could have had a fun, casual get-together without drama. Now I look like a pathetic, demanding, whiny old woman planning a "craptacular" no one wants.

Also, it hurts to have DIL's FOO take over. They pretend we don't exist and that DS is their son. Anything we do after they've done their celebration is sort of after the fact and sad. I don't want to be patronized or pitied, I just want to celebrate my son's birthday.

No Pen, you do not look like a pathetic, demanding, whiny old woman.  I have been reading your story here, and I think you are eminently reasonable.  A couple of days notice is reasonable.  Celebrating your son's birthday is reasonable.

Your mistake was not having enough confidence in your plans.  Don't use the excuse that you are going to put all the birthdays together, etc.  First - that idea is probably too complicated for your DS and DIL to comprehend.  Just ask one simple thing at a time.  Tell DS that you want to celebrate his birthday - just as you always have - celebrate your joy in having him as your son.  Don't convolute this one wonderful great request with all the lesser ones about other relatives' birthdays, about the birthday season, etc.

Your wish to have your DS and his family come to you and celebrate his birthday is one of the greatest things I can think of.  I want that for myself too!! (It won't happen).

Go for it!  Make it simple.  One request.  You plan it.  You invite your DS and his family.  You bake the birthday cake just as you have always done.  And you enjoy your DS!

Love,
seasage

Quote from: Pooh on February 07, 2011, 06:08:43 AM
We can LL.  I am not perfect, and there is always things I can work on about myself, but I refuse to pretend I am someone else. 

I think sometimes we need to just accept people and we could get along better.  If BOTH would accept each other and improve on some things.  If I could get my DIL to just say, "You know, I know I can be selfish, and I know I can be difficult" and me say, "Well yeah...and I know I can be stubborn and I know I can be too tough" and we both could say, ok but we can still get along by respecting each other...now that's out of the way, what's for lunch?

Pooh:
After our last showdown ,,,my F/DIL and I exchanged numerous emails where  I decided to tell it like it is ...I felt a huge relief I can tell you and asked if in the future ,if I upset her in any way she was to tell me and vice versa for me .
I said I hope we would both be truthful and hopefully there would be no offence taken on either side .
This way perhaps we can work things out .
We are still very cool with each other ,but I feel there is a mutual respect now on either side .
Accepting our own weaknesses is half the battle ,owning up to them is even harder .
Getting things out in the open and moving on has worked for me ..

LL,

Thats great news.  I'm happy for you

Thankyou so much Tara..x

It took an amazing amount of courage on my side ,I can tell you ,but I couldn't  stand things any longer
the way they were .My nerves were shot to pieces .
Still a way to go with access to my GD , but I'm ever hopeful ..

Holli, we tried but they had plans all month around the date and we just couldn't set anything. My bad luck for giving birth to DS so close to the holidays :(      Trying to beat DIL's FOO is impossible since they see them daily.

Thanks, Seasage, you are so wise. Unfortunately the date we set is right near the other two birthdays so we're kind of stuck doing all of them on that day. I wish we could just focus on one thing at a time. I'm sorry you aren't able to celebrate with your son :(

LL, that's great! I'm really glad you did what you needed to do and that it seems to be working out. Best wishes on continuing progress. Yay!

Pen you are definately a better woman than I am.  I think by now I would have said phooey on them and planned a big bash for DD who would be appreciative.  Then tell them that since they can't commit and give you notice, you are having DD a big birthday celebration on XXXX and they are invited.  Sorry, I'm being a witch, but you are trying so hard to do something nice FOR THEM!

I know you want to see him, just ignore me, I am mad on your behalf because you are a nicer person than I am.

Thanks Pooh, you are so sweet. A big bash honoring DD would be great, but there's only the 3 of us (DH, DDD & me) so it's low key by default. All of our extended family live days away. If we invite friends and DS & DIL decide to show up, DIL will leave since she hates our friends. More GRRRR!

In hindsight we should have let DS & DIL come for the flyby gift giving for DS and not been concerned with DIL's gifts at this point. We could have taken DD somewhere for her special day, mailed something later to DIL and been done with it. I've been trying too hard to be fair to all so that DIL will know we consider her part of our family. I thought that would make DS happy, too. Instead I've botched the whole thing and look like an idiot.

No you haven't botched it, they have.  It's a two way street Pen, and your side is paved in gold while theirs is still tar and chipped!

OOOOooooooohhhhh, I'm still mad for you

Hi Pen,

I really dislike it that as MILs we seem to try so hard and just can't 'get it right'.  grrrrr.
I'm sort of agreement with Pooh.  Maybe let it go.  I'm mad for you too.

Also, wondered about what Holliberry said earlier re:  maybe son would have just liked to
drop by to hang out a bit?  I wasn't sure by what you said earlier when you talked to ihm?

Quote from: catchingup on February 04, 2011, 06:14:12 AM

Quote from: Laurie on February 03, 2011, 10:58:52 PM
I'd love to go to England.. maybe Ireland first.. that would be a great vacation.

I am spending a week in London then a week in Wales and we cross over at Holyhead in Northern Wales on a ferry to Ireland for a week so shall send greetings to Ireland for you
I will be spending another 2 weeks in London on my return from Ireland.
I am really looking forward to the break.


My son seems to be insisting I use his car for the week in Wales.
It is only about 200 kilometers from London to Cardiff so he can catch a train and spend the week-end with us and drive it back.
He is a sensitive and generous guy.

So my son phones me tonight and insists I use the car.
"I can assure you Mom if it was a Merc or a BM I would definately not have given you my car"