Hello there WiseWomen,
I wanted to come here and see if the people here understand me and what I am going through because my friends and family do not seem to get it. I have one son and a teenager daughter. My son has been married and since then, he has no time or room for me in his life. It kills me, I dwell on it all the time. it hurts my feelings to be ignored and unwanted by him. We were so close until his wife got in the picture. He dated many women and I got along great with all of them, but this one had it out for me from day one it seems. Anything I said was later twisted when I was not there to defend myself. Daughter in law I will call her Jane ok? even keeps him from his own sister accusing her of being offensive and my husband too. I just need to solve this problem before the heartache of it all crushes me. I miss him so much, but I am tired of being accused of being a monster. Please give me so advice before I sink down more and make things worse.
I never imagined when I rocked my son and told right from wrong that someday he would forget me and leave my life so empty. Why is this happening to me? My neighbor has her sons kids all the time, not me. When my friends invite me to thier kids weddings and baby showers, I cry. My son is so lost to us it is as if he is in a cult. Why does my grown son punish us to please his wife? I aks him that and he tells me because I never listen I never learn what they expect from me. What about what I expect? I raised him up and paid for his college what for? He uses the degree I paid for to support a wife that only works part time and buys her everything. My son works about sixty hours a week so she can wear the best clothes and make up and she drives around in an Escalade with a tv in it that she claimed she "needed" for the baby. I am ready to go into the nuthouse over this stuff. She could not wait to come over here and show us the pictures she took of the two of them in Paris and then showed me all the photos her mom took of grandson while she watched him for a week. It broke my heart. I have never had such oppurtunities. I am going to compile a long list of all the things I have "done wrong" and post it here and I want you all to tell me the truth, was it wrong? And how can I fix it now? Is it too late? Is my son gone forever?
Betty, I can hear the pain you're feeling over this. I'm in a very similar situation, although my DS is still in the "stick up for his family of origin" phase. That may change, and probably will, as time goes on (as you said, it sometimes feels like a cult has taken him.) It's especially hard when I see my friends have great relationships with their sons and their son's families...I wonder what I did wrong or differently or how I could have prevented this from happening?
It's rare that someone will admit it, but I believe there are some DILs who know from the start that they don't want DH's family in their lives. There are also MILs who won't accept any DIL no matter who they are or what they do. These kinds of women (and I know not all MILs or DILs are this way, so don't ding me!) are going to do whatever they can to destroy DH/DS's relationships with FOO/DW. They don't care about the truth or the facts and will come up with excuse after excuse. Not a very good way to show love for the poor guy, is it?
In your case, I believe it's going to take an awakening on the part of DS - he holds the key. If he doesn't stick up for you I don't think there's much you can do. Is his dad in the picture, or a grandfather or even a pastor for whom he has respect? If so, maybe they could talk to him and lead him to a more balanced approach. Please think before you say or do anything that makes it worse. If you don't trust yourself to be calm, take a break and communicate with them some other time. Don't give DS or DIL anything more that can be twisted around.
Thinking of you...I've been there, still am somewhat, with that awful feeling of emptiness that isn't death and isn't just loneliness but it feels like both of those things. Take care.
Hubby is the father of my son and my daughter. He loves son they used to be so very close. It hurts us all so much but son is only focused on pleasing his wife it is so terribly sad. My husband has talked to my son about the treatment from his wife to all of us. My son just continues to say that she needs more time to heal from all the things our family has supposedly done to her and she does not want to share holidays with us because it is so upsetting to her. Like we are not upset and uncomfortable? Husband has told son we are his only parents we should be respected and not ignored and left out of everything. We have to ask and beg for any contact we get. We just want to part of his life too. We have all said we are sorry to her for anything that has ever offended her majesty but it does no good she said she has heard our apologies but she needs time and space. It is always the same run around and same excuses too busy not a good time, other family events going on etc. We are the outcasts.
I just posted something under your "grandparents' topic, Betty, that probably would be better over here. Sorry!
Quote from: bettylou on April 15, 2010, 03:27:14 PM
Hubby is the father of my son and my daughter. He loves son they used to be so very close. It hurts us all so much but son is only focused on pleasing his wife it is so terribly sad. My husband has talked to my son about the treatment from his wife to all of us. My son just continues to say that she needs more time to heal from all the things our family has supposedly done to her and she does not want to share holidays with us because it is so upsetting to her. Like we are not upset and uncomfortable? Husband has told son we are his only parents we should be respected and not ignored and left out of everything. We have to ask and beg for any contact we get. We just want to part of his life too. We have all said we are sorry to her for anything that has ever offended her majesty but it does no good she said she has heard our apologies but she needs time and space. It is always the same run around and same excuses too busy not a good time, other family events going on etc. We are the outcasts.
Do you know specifically what she's mad about? I've never taken the "I'm sorry for whatever it is that I did" or "I'm sorry your feelings are hurt" as a real apology. To me a real apology is when a person addresses specifically what they did and says they won't do it again.
Specific apologies tend to be better received...vague apologies and apologizing when it's clear you aren't sure what you did (general you here) or don't really think you did anything but are apologizing to say you apologized don't really work. It's like you're (general you again) not really apologizing, but just going through the motions because you have to.
I'd also like to ask...how often do you want to see your son and how often do you actually see your son? Do you expect to see him every weekend, twice a month, once a month...what does that mean to you? And...do your son and sil know what seeing them more means?
As far as the saying sorry here is the pattern we have all come to dread, we will see my son and daughter in law and grandson, it is very uncomfortable, everyone is on edge, then they leave. They get home in ten minutes and the phone rings, it is my son with a list of complaints. I always say I am so sorry I did not mean it like that or if it is about my daughter I say I will talk to her and try to fix it. I ask if I can speak to daughter in law to say sorry and he says no she is is sleeping or not at home but he will tell her for me. Then when we next her, I tell her to her face how sorry I am and try to explain that I meant no harm and she says " oh no it is over, I have moved on don't worry about that right now, let's not rehash it." I can not keep messing up all the time, getting chewed out and then have my apology ignore. I am tired of it. My daughter is seriously hurt over all this. And I seriously feel she uses my daughter in her games for two reasons, one being that is really really hurts me and she knows it and two I think she is or was jelous of the relationship that my son used to have with her and she wants us all to make sure we know she is his number one girl. I am telling you this game has got me so worn out I never sleep well and even a friend has talked to my son but to no help. Thank you all for just letting me type it all out. Thank you for not telling me I am totally wrong and deserve to be treated so badly. Thank you for making me feel less ashamed and lonely
We might not know what it is we've done, which makes it hard to apologize more directly. My DIL won't pinpoint anything - she just doesn't like us and that's that. I really hope that the DILs here understand that not all MILs do something awful to cause these problems. Many of us are honestly baffled by our DIL's complete turnaround either after the wedding or after the birth of a child.
Betty, I am so so sorry about your situation. You don't deserve to be treated like this even if you had made mistakes, and it's so sad that your daughter is affected by this. Many of us here understand; you're not alone. I know that doesn't really help, because having a child turn away from us hurts like he**, but hang in there. Creme and Anna have had some miracles happen, so I have hope for us all.
Betty, this whole situation has to be so hard to live with and is breaking my heart just to hear this. It appears to me that you are just living in limbo and wanting to understand something you are not allowed to understand right now.
I would weigh the pro's and con's with this. Decide what is the most important in your heart. Your daughter's feelings, I believe can be made sense of. She's young and really shouldn't start out with an infant. I am in agreement with this and do not believe I would have had a teenager babysit my infant son or daughter either. What I am saying, is that your daughter is young and may not understand. The second options is are your going to honor your son and DIL's marriage and their decisions?
I believe if it were me, I would do both. I would have to sit my daughter down and explain the difference between inexperience and experience with regard to the infant child. Then I would explain the difference between that child at 2 or 4 years old. Inexperience means different things to me between those ages. I know this is all heartbreaking for you, but I'm trying to just say slow down and take it all one step at a time. Help your daughter understand that there is a difference and that your son and DIL are protective of their beautiful life together and that very important life God gave to them. Someday, if she is patient she may be the "aunt" she is so eager to be. Sometimes we wait for the things we want.
I know this wasn't much help, and I hope you will check back later again to see if someone else has a different perspective that I had not thought about. This is a very hard situation and I sympathise with you so much. I will keep putting on this "thinking cap" and hope something rings true for you.
In the meantime, you are truly in my thoughts and prayers...
I'm repeating myself here, sorry, but it fits. There is a solution to the "teen babysitting dilemma" if all parties are willing to consider it. This is what I did when teens I knew wanted to spend time with my new baby: I set up supervised sitting sessions in my home, saying that I needed to work on some project or another. The teen got practice with baby, I got some help, baby got socialization. As the teen and the baby matured, I might leave them alone to go out and do some yardwork (coming in every 10 or so for some 'reason.') Or I'd let the teen take the baby for a short stroll around the block or whatever.
If I can be real, as the young 'uns say, I think Betty's DIL is yanking some major chain. DS is going along to keep the peace.
What if Betty's DIL acted differently? She'd gain a happy husband who didn't feel like a wuss (my DS & DH wouldn't ever call mom to complain on behalf of DIL - that story kind of shocked me), loving GPs to love and support her kids, and a loving, caring auntie to play with her kids. She is so lucky to have all that close by, but I feel sorry for her that she doesn't want to take advantage of it.
I am ok with them not letting my daughter watch their child it is is their choice and their child, I know my place but I just wish they did not keep telling her she could do it and then not let her that is the part I am ticked off about.
Yes, she is pulling strings that is for sure, and it is my loving son that calls us up everytime they leave here. I have thought about telling him enough do not call me when you get home, but I am afraid if I do not let her get her digs in to my family I won't see my son and grandson. So I put up with whatever she says and does to me but it is getting so hard and we never see them enough as it is.
My daughter is no longer allowed to really play with grandson because my daughter in law tells her, "he is not your toy, put him down, he is fine, he is tired let him be etc." It really hurts me to see her so shut out from her only nephew. Since my grandson was born my daughter is never invited over anymore, it is always some excuse "daughter is too loud while grandson sleeps" "daughter comes over and texts her friends while she is here so what is the point?" "daughter is not helpful to daughter in law". Now no one wants to go over there and generally we do not. But if they invite us and we do not all go it is a huge big deal and we are not being nice and once again caused too much pain. When we do her Daughter in laws family is always there making it a livng hell for us. We will never ever win
Quote from: bettylou on April 15, 2010, 08:02:47 PM
I am ok with them not letting my daughter watch their child it is is their choice and their child, I know my place but I just wish they did not keep telling her she could do it and then not let her that is the part I am ticked off about.
Yes, she is pulling strings that is for sure, and it is my loving son that calls us up everytime they leave here. I have thought about telling him enough do not call me when you get home, but I am afraid if I do not let her get her digs in to my family I won't see my son and grandson. So I put up with whatever she says and does to me but it is getting so hard and we never see them enough as it is.
It's very interesting that your loving son isn't really getting much blame in all this. In just another post you were saying he was supporting her. You aren't willing to entertain the possibility that some or even all of what is happening is happening because THEY TOGETHER are deciding it? And...define enough. I don't know any people really who want to spend every weekend or every free day with inlaws or even foo.
My daughter is no longer allowed to really play with grandson because my daughter in law tells her, "he is not your toy, put him down, he is fine, he is tired let him be etc." It really hurts me to see her so shut out from her only nephew.
I guess this is where I'm so different. As a dil I wouldn't care if my teen sil felt she were being shut out.
Since my grandson was born my daughter is never invited over anymore, it is always some excuse "daughter is too loud while grandson sleeps" "daughter comes over and texts her friends while she is here so what is the point?" "daughter is not helpful to daughter in law".
I could see myself saying all of those things except the last one if they were true. I(I don't expect anyone to come to my house to be helpful to me unless I'm paying them to clean my house or something of the like.
Now no one wants to go over there and generally we do not. But if they invite us and we do not all go it is a huge big deal and we are not being nice and once again caused too much pain. When we do her Daughter in laws family is always there making it a livng hell for us. We will never ever win
Well, if you think you'll never win, you certainly won't. In fact...thinking of it in terms of winning rather than a relationship will pretty much insure things won't get better.
Hi Bettylou and welcome. I can see you have a big problem there. Has your dil always been like this, ie before the baby? Did you have a close relationship with her or was it more a kind of "wow look at the weather today and do you think it will rain tomorrow" kind of thing? How long have they been together and married? It might relate to how they view your daughters suitability as a babysitter, if she was still quite young when they got started, perhaps they are making the mistake of still viewing her as young?
Having said that, a teenage babysitter would very much depend on the teen in question. I take a fairly liberal view in that regard as I did a lot of babysitting as a teenager.
As for your feelings of loss with regard to your son, I wonder if you could expand a little more? He's working fulltime and she works part time? Did they agree on that together? I know my husband would have liked for me to work less, but we decided together that we wanted to own our home etc.
Just wanted to second everything glitterati said.
Thirded! I agree completely with Glitterati!
I'm new, yep, though I've been lurking for a little while. Just for background on my point of view: I'm not a mother in law. I get along fine with my MIL-equivalent. I don't have kids. I don't get along with my mother. I'm very, very big on boundaries.
So, that said:
> I never imagined when I rocked my son and told right from wrong
> that someday he would forget me and leave my life so empty.
If there's emptiness in your life, that isn't something that your son can fix. When a child grows up, he can no longer be the center of his parents' life. If your life is empty without your son, he was the center. And that's something that needs fixing. You need a new center; an adult who isn't your spouse cannot be the center of your life. That's just too much for you to demand.
I understand that you may feel that I'm over interpreting, that of course you have other things in your life. But when you say that your son's departure leaves your life empty, that phrasing says to me that you're more dependent on your son than a parent should be dependent on an adult child.
I know that you invest a lifetime of love and care and worry in a child, and then that lifetime walks out the door and makes their own choices. I can understand that that could be disorienting, frightening, hurtful - that it must produce all sorts of overwhelming emotions. But the child leaving the nest and making their own life is normal.
> Why
> is this happening to me? My neighbor has her sons kids all the
> time, not me. When my friends invite me to thier kids weddings
> and baby showers, I cry.
I'm not clear on why you cry. Were you completely excluded from your son's wedding and baby showers?
> My son is so lost to us it is as if he
> is in a cult. Why does my grown son punish us to please his
> wife?
I think that it's unwise to assume that this is all about his wife. If your son is applying boundaries, that is _his choice_. Yes, his wife no doubt had input, but it's not all about his wife.
Whatever you do, when speaking to him or his wife don't use the word "cult", don't accuse him of "punishing" you, don't blame his wife. If you have done these things, stop now. That will just hurt you.
A man's wife is the most important person in his life. Don't attack her. He loves her. If you attack what another person loves, that other person is going to be angry with you.
You may say, "But he's supposed to love me. Why isn't he angry when she attacks me?" I don't know. But I do know that a man's wife, not his mother, is supposed to be the most important woman in his life. If you're both attacking each other, a man who's properly bonded to his wife _will_ take her side. You cannot afford to attack her. You simply can't. Forget whether you feel justified; strategically, it's the worst thing that you could possibly do.
> I aks him that and he tells me because I never listen I
> never learn what they expect from me.
This sounds like a pretty clear answer. I know that you probably don't want to hear what he expects from you. It must be upsetting for the tables to be turned, for the child to tell the parent what the child thinks is right. But the child is now an adult. You are now equals, and he has the right to set expectations and boundaries. No, you don't have to follow those boundaries, but if you don't, he doesn't have to give you access to himself or his family.
Again, I understand that it must hurt, I really do. But that doesn't change the situation. You are negotiating with another adult, not with an obedient child.
> What about what I expect?
> I raised him up and paid for his college what for?
Raising a child is what a parent is supposed to do. I'm afraid that there is no reward in terms of obedience in adulthood. You raised an intelligent, independent adult. You can be proud of that. But now that he's an adult, you can't expect him to obey you, to "pay you back" for raising him, to spend his life, his career, and his money as you direct him to.
He needs to move on to have his own life, his own career, his own family. He can't make you the center of his life; that is as unhealthy as you making him the center of yours. His wife and children are now the center of his life, and that's the way that it's supposed to be.
> He uses the
> degree I paid for to support a wife that only works part time and
> buys her everything. My son works about sixty hours a week so
> she can wear the best clothes and make up and she drives around
> in an Escalade with a tv in it that she claimed she "needed" for
> the baby. I am ready to go into the nuthouse over this stuff.
Again, I know that it's hard to let go of a child that you raised, but there are things in your son's life that are no longer appropriate for you to criticize. Those include how much his wife works, what car she drives, and what clothes she wears.
I know that you feel that she's taking advantage of him, but you don't live inside their marriage. Maybe his career requires that many hours, and they figure that they may as well have the luxuries, since they don't have the time together. Maybe they want the baby to spend more time with parents and less time in daycare, and that's why his wife isn't working full time. Who knows? But that's inside their marriage, and it's their decision to make.
If you criticize these internal decisions, you set yourself up for anger and resentment from your daughter in law. _Even if_ your son makes the huge mistake of complaining to you about her when they squabble, it's very, very dangerous for you to take a position on these matters. The wisest thing, if he does complain, is to change the subject.
> She could not wait to come over here and show us the pictures she
> took of the two of them in Paris and then showed me all the
> photos her mom took of grandson while she watched him for a
> week. It broke my heart. I have never had such oppurtunities.
Focusing on the opportunities and privileges that you want is not going to help. It's just going to make them feel guilty, and pressured, and frustrated, and angry. It's going to make them close the information flow, so that you don't get to see pictures of them in Paris, you don't get to see pictures of your grandson. It's going to make them avoid you, because they don't like the guilt and pressure, because they don't like you treating his wife like the enemy.
Again, I know it hurts. Complain here, complain out loud when you're alone, scream into a pillow, do whatever it takes to express your hurt, but don't express it to your son, his wife, or anyone who will pass your complaints on to them. They are adults and they can set the boundaries that they choose. And the more that you press on those boundaries, the more extreme they will become.
> I am going to compile a long list of all the things I have "done
> wrong" and post it here and I want you all to tell me the truth,
> was it wrong? And how can I fix it now? Is it too late? Is my
> son gone forever?
To some extent, it doesn't matter if other people think it's wrong. Your son and his wife have a right to set boundaries. To improve your relationship with them, you need to hear their boundaries, understand them, and respect and follow them.
Your relationship with them is not going to be as you direct, or as you envision. But if he's telling you that you don't listen, if he's conveying complaints to you, that means that _he hasn't given up yet_. It means that if you can listen, if you can change, if you can cooperate in their vision of the relationship, you can still have a relationship.
How do I know this? Because I've given up on my mother. I no longer complain about her behavior, and that's because I have concluded that she will never, ever hear me. I'm still adjusting to the fact that I have given up on ever having a real adult relationship with her. If your son is still complaining, he hasn't given up yet. Please, _hear_ him before he does give up.
I know that it must gall to obey their boundaries, but (and I know I'm being repetitive here), they are adults. Their vision of how things should be matters as much as yours. They can decide what's a dealbreaker, and they can enforce it. So you need, however much it galls, hurts, upsets you, to hear and respect their dealbreakers.
If you refuse to hear and respect their dealbreakers, you are deciding to give up the relationship. And that, I think, is what you need to think about. Is expressing yourself about her part-time work important enough to make you give up the relationship? Are _any_ of the behaviors that they complain about important enough to you, that you'd rather give up the relationship than give up the behaviors?
I'm sure that it feels like it's not fair. But it's not about fair right now. It's about whether you want to work to keep this relationship. If you try _hard_, if you truly listen and truly change some of the behaviors, I suspect that they'll be more likely to tolerate some slips in the things that you truly don't quite "get" yet. But I suspect that they do need to see you trying, wholeheartedly trying, to hear them and make things better.
Onlooker
One last comment: If they commit to having your daughter babysit, and then change the plan at the last minute, it's perfectly appropriate for _you_ to set the boundary that your daughter will not be babysitting for a while. Maybe they don't know how to say no. Maybe they are being insensitive and don't understand how upsetting the change of plan is. I'm not clear on what's going wrong. But you can short-circuit that whole mess by saying that the babysitting will simply no longer happen. Not to punish anyone, and _absolutely_ not in an angry way - that will just make things worse. But calmly, civilly say that it doesn't seem to be working out, and it's best to take a break from the babysitting idea for a while.
I agree completely with Glitterati also!
I'm feeling as if words are being taken out of context and twisted around. I also feel as though many DILs here are not able to look at these issues from any perspective other than their own and are pouncing on women who are in pain, confused, hurting, and rejected.
As a former DIL to a mean MIL, I get it. As the daughter of a woman who dealt with a truly horrid MIL, I get it. I understand the frustration, anger and hurt some DILs feel due to horrible treatment by their MILs. Some of the stories are really heartbreaking, and I am so sorry for those of you who are dealing with it.
We know that adults, our children and their spouses, have the right to treat us any way they choose. They are breaking no laws by shutting us out. We get that! What we don't understand is why those of us who have not been awful are being pushed aside and treated with rudeness and scorn. I've even read some posts here, directed at me and other MILs, that reflect those rude, harsh attitudes, even though Luise has said over and over that the purpose of this site was understanding and kindness.
I have a very full life, but there's a big empty spot shaped like DS. One day he was here; we talked, we laughed, we enjoyed spending time together (not a lot - he's a busy guy) in a relaxed, non-critical atmosphere. The next day it changed. Suddenly, with no warning. As DS says, "It's not you. It's her problem." Even DIL says that! DS has come to us confused and hurt by DIL's attitude, and we've said, "You need to work it out with her. She's your wife." We know we haven't done any of the things the nightmarish ILs have done - quite the opposite. Not even a drop-in. She just doesn't want us in the picture at all. We're supposed to be like salmon - spawn, produce, go away.
I can't believe that those of you who are so protective of your children and nuclear families now would be able to handle the hurtful treatment some of us are getting if your sons should marry a woman who is determined to shut you out (I truly hope it doesn't happen to you, but what if it does?) Please think about it honestly. Do you think you'll be able to walk away like you never gave birth and nurtured your children? Really? Try to put yourself in the place of these sad moms for just a minute. Maybe we can all understand a little better.
Quote from: Onlooker on April 16, 2010, 02:21:40 AM
I'm new, yep, though I've been lurking for a little while. Just for background on my point of view: I'm not a mother in law. I get along fine with my MIL-equivalent. I don't have kids. I don't get along with my mother. I'm very, very big on boundaries.
So, that said:
> I never imagined when I rocked my son and told right from wrong
> that someday he would forget me and leave my life so empty.
If there's emptiness in your life, that isn't something that your son can fix. When a child grows up, he can no longer be the center of his parents' life. If your life is empty without your son, he was the center. And that's something that needs fixing. You need a new center; an adult who isn't your spouse cannot be the center of your life. That's just too much for you to demand.
I understand that you may feel that I'm over interpreting, that of course you have other things in your life. But when you say that your son's departure leaves your life empty, that phrasing says to me that you're more dependent on your son than a parent should be dependent on an adult child.
I know that you invest a lifetime of love and care and worry in a child, and then that lifetime walks out the door and makes their own choices. I can understand that that could be disorienting, frightening, hurtful - that it must produce all sorts of overwhelming emotions. But the child leaving the nest and making their own life is normal.
> Why
> is this happening to me? My neighbor has her sons kids all the
> time, not me. When my friends invite me to thier kids weddings
> and baby showers, I cry.
I'm not clear on why you cry. Were you completely excluded from your son's wedding and baby showers?
> My son is so lost to us it is as if he
> is in a cult. Why does my grown son punish us to please his
> wife?
I think that it's unwise to assume that this is all about his wife. If your son is applying boundaries, that is _his choice_. Yes, his wife no doubt had input, but it's not all about his wife.
Whatever you do, when speaking to him or his wife don't use the word "cult", don't accuse him of "punishing" you, don't blame his wife. If you have done these things, stop now. That will just hurt you.
A man's wife is the most important person in his life. Don't attack her. He loves her. If you attack what another person loves, that other person is going to be angry with you.
You may say, "But he's supposed to love me. Why isn't he angry when she attacks me?" I don't know. But I do know that a man's wife, not his mother, is supposed to be the most important woman in his life. If you're both attacking each other, a man who's properly bonded to his wife _will_ take her side. You cannot afford to attack her. You simply can't. Forget whether you feel justified; strategically, it's the worst thing that you could possibly do.
> I aks him that and he tells me because I never listen I
> never learn what they expect from me.
This sounds like a pretty clear answer. I know that you probably don't want to hear what he expects from you. It must be upsetting for the tables to be turned, for the child to tell the parent what the child thinks is right. But the child is now an adult. You are now equals, and he has the right to set expectations and boundaries. No, you don't have to follow those boundaries, but if you don't, he doesn't have to give you access to himself or his family.
Again, I understand that it must hurt, I really do. But that doesn't change the situation. You are negotiating with another adult, not with an obedient child.
> What about what I expect?
> I raised him up and paid for his college what for?
Raising a child is what a parent is supposed to do. I'm afraid that there is no reward in terms of obedience in adulthood. You raised an intelligent, independent adult. You can be proud of that. But now that he's an adult, you can't expect him to obey you, to "pay you back" for raising him, to spend his life, his career, and his money as you direct him to.
He needs to move on to have his own life, his own career, his own family. He can't make you the center of his life; that is as unhealthy as you making him the center of yours. His wife and children are now the center of his life, and that's the way that it's supposed to be.
> He uses the
> degree I paid for to support a wife that only works part time and
> buys her everything. My son works about sixty hours a week so
> she can wear the best clothes and make up and she drives around
> in an Escalade with a tv in it that she claimed she "needed" for
> the baby. I am ready to go into the nuthouse over this stuff.
Again, I know that it's hard to let go of a child that you raised, but there are things in your son's life that are no longer appropriate for you to criticize. Those include how much his wife works, what car she drives, and what clothes she wears.
I know that you feel that she's taking advantage of him, but you don't live inside their marriage. Maybe his career requires that many hours, and they figure that they may as well have the luxuries, since they don't have the time together. Maybe they want the baby to spend more time with parents and less time in daycare, and that's why his wife isn't working full time. Who knows? But that's inside their marriage, and it's their decision to make.
If you criticize these internal decisions, you set yourself up for anger and resentment from your daughter in law. _Even if_ your son makes the huge mistake of complaining to you about her when they squabble, it's very, very dangerous for you to take a position on these matters. The wisest thing, if he does complain, is to change the subject.
> She could not wait to come over here and show us the pictures she
> took of the two of them in Paris and then showed me all the
> photos her mom took of grandson while she watched him for a
> week. It broke my heart. I have never had such oppurtunities.
Focusing on the opportunities and privileges that you want is not going to help. It's just going to make them feel guilty, and pressured, and frustrated, and angry. It's going to make them close the information flow, so that you don't get to see pictures of them in Paris, you don't get to see pictures of your grandson. It's going to make them avoid you, because they don't like the guilt and pressure, because they don't like you treating his wife like the enemy.
Again, I know it hurts. Complain here, complain out loud when you're alone, scream into a pillow, do whatever it takes to express your hurt, but don't express it to your son, his wife, or anyone who will pass your complaints on to them. They are adults and they can set the boundaries that they choose. And the more that you press on those boundaries, the more extreme they will become.
> I am going to compile a long list of all the things I have "done
> wrong" and post it here and I want you all to tell me the truth,
> was it wrong? And how can I fix it now? Is it too late? Is my
> son gone forever?
To some extent, it doesn't matter if other people think it's wrong. Your son and his wife have a right to set boundaries. To improve your relationship with them, you need to hear their boundaries, understand them, and respect and follow them.
Your relationship with them is not going to be as you direct, or as you envision. But if he's telling you that you don't listen, if he's conveying complaints to you, that means that _he hasn't given up yet_. It means that if you can listen, if you can change, if you can cooperate in their vision of the relationship, you can still have a relationship.
How do I know this? Because I've given up on my mother. I no longer complain about her behavior, and that's because I have concluded that she will never, ever hear me. I'm still adjusting to the fact that I have given up on ever having a real adult relationship with her. If your son is still complaining, he hasn't given up yet. Please, _hear_ him before he does give up.
I know that it must gall to obey their boundaries, but (and I know I'm being repetitive here), they are adults. Their vision of how things should be matters as much as yours. They can decide what's a dealbreaker, and they can enforce it. So you need, however much it galls, hurts, upsets you, to hear and respect their dealbreakers.
If you refuse to hear and respect their dealbreakers, you are deciding to give up the relationship. And that, I think, is what you need to think about. Is expressing yourself about her part-time work important enough to make you give up the relationship? Are _any_ of the behaviors that they complain about important enough to you, that you'd rather give up the relationship than give up the behaviors?
I'm sure that it feels like it's not fair. But it's not about fair right now. It's about whether you want to work to keep this relationship. If you try _hard_, if you truly listen and truly change some of the behaviors, I suspect that they'll be more likely to tolerate some slips in the things that you truly don't quite "get" yet. But I suspect that they do need to see you trying, wholeheartedly trying, to hear them and make things better.
Onlooker
One last comment: If they commit to having your daughter babysit, and then change the plan at the last minute, it's perfectly appropriate for _you_ to set the boundary that your daughter will not be babysitting for a while. Maybe they don't know how to say no. Maybe they are being insensitive and don't understand how upsetting the change of plan is. I'm not clear on what's going wrong. But you can short-circuit that whole mess by saying that the babysitting will simply no longer happen. Not to punish anyone, and _absolutely_ not in an angry way - that will just make things worse. But calmly, civilly say that it doesn't seem to be working out, and it's best to take a break from the babysitting idea for a while.
This a great response.
Quote from: penstamen on April 16, 2010, 08:41:09 AM
I'm feeling as if words are being taken out of context and twisted around. I also feel as though many DILs here are not able to look at these issues from any perspective other than their own and are pouncing on women who are in pain, confused, hurting, and rejected.
As a former DIL to a mean MIL, I get it. As the daughter of a woman who dealt with a truly horrid MIL, I get it. I understand the frustration, anger and hurt some DILs feel due to horrible treatment by their MILs. Some of the stories are really heartbreaking, and I am so sorry for those of you who are dealing with it.
We know that adults, our children and their spouses, have the right to treat us any way they choose. They are breaking no laws by shutting us out. We get that! What we don't understand is why those of us who have not been awful are being pushed aside and treated with rudeness and scorn. I've even read some posts here, directed at me and other MILs, that reflect those rude, harsh attitudes, even though Luise has said over and over that the purpose of this site was understanding and kindness.
I have a very full life, but there's a big empty spot shaped like DS. One day he was here; we talked, we laughed, we enjoyed spending time together (not a lot - he's a busy guy) in a relaxed, non-critical atmosphere. The next day it changed. Suddenly, with no warning. As DS says, "It's not you. It's her problem." Even DIL says that! DS has come to us confused and hurt by DIL's attitude, and we've said, "You need to work it out with her. She's your wife." We know we haven't done any of the things the nightmarish ILs have done - quite the opposite. Not even a drop-in. She just doesn't want us in the picture at all. We're supposed to be like salmon - spawn, produce, go away.
I can't believe that those of you who are so protective of your children and nuclear families now would be able to handle the hurtful treatment some of us are getting if your sons should marry a woman who is determined to shut you out (I truly hope it doesn't happen to you, but what if it does?) Please think about it honestly. Do you think you'll be able to walk away like you never gave birth and nurtured your children? Really? Try to put yourself in the place of these sad moms for just a minute. Maybe we can all understand a little better.
Pen, that was very heartfelt and I can really feel the concern in your words...me, I've had very little in my life...matter of fact, I've been told and promised so many times, that, I learned not to get excited about anything until it happens...do you know, I had one birthday party in my entire life, and that was when I was 13, I think my mom could only afford to invite 6 kids....my point is, that, I'm able to do without, and except the crumbs I get thrown at me....I never ever get excited about a vacation, unless in in the rental car driving to the cottage I've rented...I don't plan vacations with anyone, b/c so many times in the end, people have said yes, but have had reservations about spending the money, so they back out....and it causes me a lot of hardship b/c now if I go, I've got to pay double, plus, the disappointment...so, in that I guess in a way I'm lucky...I hear and feel your pain Pen...and yes, it's so very difficult...I think of my son and how close we used to be...how he'd share most everything with me....and I miss that...however, I do know now, that he has a wife, to share those precious moments with, doesn't make it any easier...but I do miss quality time with him...hearing his stories...hearing about his life...what he loves to eat, what pisses him off....however, in reality, my job is done and I have to take what I can get now...and look to other things to give me pleasure...happiness....andn when he calls, I'm there...and glad to hear from him and we've had some very productive talks....but I do miss him as you miss your son...however, I know, it will never be the same again Pen, it can't....he's an adult now, and he has swam upstream...that is life and the natural order of things...there are some families who carry on the tradition of being close....and can be close...I've seen it in Italian families...however, there are also times when children need they're quality time, alone...with they're wives...they're very busy, very tired...working full time jobs, running the kids here and there....it's not us, they're avoiding, what it is, is, that they now have thye're own lives and they're trying to do the best they can, and do spread themselves pretty thin....
Does that make any sense or help?
Dear Creme, I'm not wanting to be DS's "mommy" anymore...I'm done childrearing and love being free to do my thing. What I am hurt about is the sudden rejection by DIL that has changed our relationship with DS. Honestly, I'm not a cling-on. Don't want the kids to move home, don't even want to be considered for full-time GC sitting when the time comes. I have more hobbies than time, still work part-time, etc. etc.
I can visualize a scene where we're all sitting around the firepit in the patio, drinking wine, looking at the stars, talking over current events or books or whatever, or getting DS's opinion on the things he's learned in college. Doesn't that sound nice? It's not going to happen with us anymore because DIL thinks we're losers and hates being around us. That's all.
Thank you, FS!
Quote from: penstamen on April 16, 2010, 09:29:51 AM
I can visualize a scene where we're all sitting around the firepit in the patio, drinking wine, looking at the stars, talking over current events or books or whatever, or getting DS's opinion on the things he's learned in college. Doesn't that sound nice?
I think that sounds perfect! And a perfectly reasonable (and lovely) hope or even expectation from a happy family.
I would love the same relationship with either my MIL/FIL or my parents but sadly can have neither.
Quote from: penstamen on April 16, 2010, 08:41:09 AM
I'm feeling as if words are being taken out of context and twisted around. I also feel as though many DILs here are not able to look at these issues from any perspective other than their own and are pouncing on women who are in pain, confused, hurting, and rejected.
We know that adults, our children and their spouses, have the right to treat us any way they choose. They are breaking no laws by shutting us out. We get that! What we don't understand is why those of us who have not been awful are being pushed aside and treated with rudeness and scorn. I've even read some posts here, directed at me and other MILs, that reflect those rude, harsh attitudes, even though Luise has said over and over that the purpose of this site was understanding and kindness.
I can't believe that those of you who are so protective of your children and nuclear families now would be able to handle the hurtful treatment some of us are getting if your sons should marry a woman who is determined to shut you out (I truly hope it doesn't happen to you, but what if it does?) Please think about it honestly. Do you think you'll be able to walk away like you never gave birth and nurtured your children? Really? Try to put yourself in the place of these sad moms for just a minute. Maybe we can all understand a little better.
Thank-you Pen...and I agree with you.
Wow so many good responses, in some ways it is hard to read that I am to blame but I guess this is the call that I needed. I needed to see in black and white that sometimes I have overstepped my boundaries, sometimes I have been the one that is not in the right. It was hard but I thank all those, especially the daughter in laws who spoke to me kindly eventhough I probably raised some anger or hurt in them. I am sorry if I did that.
Well I guess I will start this way, here is what I have wanted in a relationship with my son and daughter in law, I have wanted an open line of communication where daughter in law can say things to me like "I don't think that is a good idea or I do not yet feel comfortable with that, or this is the reason I took offense." Instead it is always the same pattern, they leave here and my son calls complaining and then it is a three ring circus where she won't take my calls or speak to me to hear me say I am sorry and to treat me like I am an adult too just like her. If we could just talk it out without son I think it could work better but she will not do this. When I try she says she does not want to talk about it again. I can not force anyone to communicate when they do not want to. I wanted a daughter in law that could come over anytime to visit with me with or with out her husband and baby. I wanted us to be friends, to have a bond. It seems I have messed up so royally how to get there now?
I just need to know how to move forward now, how can I fix it for my self and my family? I just want to get along and love eachother. I do not want to mother my grandson I am too old to raise a baby and I do not want that, I do not even want to be the full time sitter, I am busy, but I want to go to to granparents days at the schools and I want to have him come see us, not to take over, I hever gave any parenting advice to them because I know that hurts and they need to find out what workds and doesnt on their own. I have said sorry so many times, when will it be enough to move ahead?
Pen, My husband and I have that kind of relationship with my parents (except my father drinks beer) and that was the kind of relationship I envisioned having with my Mil and Fil. The kind of relationship where it's; equal, comfortable and well, friendly.
I get exactly what you are saying, you are mourning the loss of the adult friendship you expected to have with your son and his wife. I actually get along quite well with my Fil and probably could have that kind of relationship with him, it's just my Mil is still clinging to her role as a mother of small children. I understand too as her husband, it's my Fil's role to form a united front with his wife, like you have talked to your son, we have talked to Fil. If anything he is the one "stuck in the middle" here.
To that end I wonder sometimes why he doesn't just tell her, stop trying to control them, they are adults now? Maybe he does and she won't listen? Do you think your Dil will ever come around? I still hope my Mil will.
Betty, best wishes to you. I feel people should always get a chance for redemption, but I guess it's up to your DS & DIL. I hope you can find the way back to them :)
PS, thank you. I really appreciate your kind, thoughtful assessment and support. You sound like a wonderful DIL! You, too, Laila. The next time the firepit is lit, you all are invited ;)
I don't think our DIL will come around. Her family is pretty enmeshed, very wealthy, and you know the power that can hold. They talk about us disparagingly which doesn't help. I'm gearing up for FGC (very future, none planned yet)...DIL had made it clear we are not worthy to be around them, although DS has assured us he'll make sure we get to see them. Creme has it down, but I'm not there yet.
> Well I guess I will start this way, here is what I have wanted in
> a relationship with my son and daughter in law, I have wanted an
> open line of communication where daughter in law can say things
> to me like "I don't think that is a good idea or I do not yet
> feel comfortable with that, or this is the reason I took
> offense." Instead it is always the same pattern, they leave here
> and my son calls complaining and then it is a three ring circus
> where she won't take my calls or speak to me
It appears that for whatever reason, she doesn't want that, or she doesn't want it right now. Maybe she fears that you'll take what she says badly? Maybe there have been unproductive circular discussions between you in the past? Maybe your son is angry with her if she upsets you and she doesn't want to take the risk? Maybe she's just uncomfortable with conflict?
Whatever the reason, she's made it pretty clear that she simply does not want this to be a discussion between you and her, and I think that you have no choice but to accept that.
So I'd recommend that you accept the information from your son, and try to act on it. If you make changes, making it clear that you do want to hear and act on the issues, then perhaps eventually your DIL will be more willing to discuss these things with you directly.
And I'd recommend not arguing against the boundaries. For example, if your son says that you need to call to ask if it's OK before you come over, don't start with, "What, I have to make an appointment to see my son?" Don't call as you're already driving over. Don't try to circumvent or lawyer the rule.
It should be fine to try to clarify what's expected, in a non-argumentative way. So if your tone isn't argumentative, it should be fine to ask, "Is a few hours' notice OK, like calling in the morning if I'd like to come over in the afternoon? Or should I call a day before, or a few days before?"
If he snaps at you, "Mom, it should be obvious! Why are you always trying to argue?!" try to tell yourself that he's frustrated too, and try not to snap back. Yes, if you're honestly trying to get the information that you need to follow his rule, it's unreasonable of him to snap, but if he's expecting you to try to get out of the rule instead, he may not be able to be receptive yet.
And if you don't get your answer, in this scenario just go with the "few days" rule for a while, and see if the complaint about not calling goes away. If you're not sure, err in the direction of respecting their boundary more than they might be demanding. Once you've demonstrated that you will respect their boundaries, then it might be safer to ask if a less stringent interpretation is OK.
Yes, this all sounds like a horrible hurtful touchy miserable process of endless negotiation. And it will be a long series of blows to your pride and your feelings. But clearly, things have already gotten horrible and hurtful and tangled. So fixing them is going to take a lot of work and compromise.
And I'm afraid that the hurt feelings will have to be aired and eased somewhere else, with someone else, someone that you can trust not to take the information back to your son and his wife. Your son and his wife simply aren't going to be the ones to make you feel better, and letting them see your hurt and resentment at their boundaries is going to make them frustrated and angry and guilty, and more likely to just avoid you.
> to hear me say I am
> sorry and to treat me like I am an adult too just like her.
She may not be willing to hear apologies. If you have apologized before, but not understood the issue or changed the behavior, the apologies may not have value for her.
I'm not saying that your apologies were insincere, but if _she_ perceived them that way, then she's not going to be willing to hear them.
> If
> we could just talk it out without son I think it could work
> better but she will not do this. When I try she says she does
> not want to talk about it again. I can not force anyone to
> communicate when they do not want to. I wanted a daughter in law
> that could come over anytime to visit with me with or with out
> her husband and baby. I wanted us to be friends, to have a
> bond. It seems I have messed up so royally how to get there now?
I wouldn't go for this goal right now. I would make your current goal one of reducing friction, not making friendship.
I realize that this is hard with family. I'm sure that if your DIL were a coworker that you had to get along with, but didn't "click" with, it would be much easier, because the stakes would be lower.
For example, if the coworker made it clear that she didn't want you touching anything on her desk, not even to help her, you'd probably shrug and move on. You wouldn't have a lot of complicated feelings of hurt and fear and wanting to be loved and appreciated by the coworker, because people don't expect their coworkers to love them. They don't seek love, they'd like friendship, but all they really need is civility.
For now, I think that it's best to lower your expectations in this way with your DIL. Don't think about what her actions are signalling in terms of love and family or even friendship. Just try to get along, to respect her preferences in your words and behavior even if you can't yet respect them in your thoughts. I guess I'm suggesting the "fake it until you make it" advice - when you can't feel respect, pretend to feel it, and maybe eventually it will come.
> I just need to know how to move forward now, how can I fix it
> for my self and my family? I just want to get along and love
> eachother. I do not want to mother my grandson I am too old to
> raise a baby and I do not want that, I do not even want to be the
> full time sitter, I am busy, but I want to go to to granparents
> days at the schools and I want to have him come see us, not to
> take over, I hever gave any parenting advice to them because I
> know that hurts and they need to find out what workds and doesnt
> on their own. I have said sorry so many times, when will it be
> enough to move ahead?
Clearly, sorry isn't working. I've mentioned my mother; sorry doesn't do it with my mother any more either, because her behavior never changes.
An apology only counts if you really acknowledge that you were wrong, acknowledge _how_ you were wrong, promise not to do it again, and you don't do it again.
For example, if they ask you not to call before 10am, and you call at 8:30am because you're afraid that they were swept away in the tornado the night before, there are several ways to apologize:
- "I'm _sorrrry_, I didn't _realize_ that the rule applied to natural disasters. I'm a bad, bad person for caring whether my grandchildren are dead or alive. I _said_ I'm sorry, what more can I do?"
- "Oh, dear, I'm so sorry." Followed by doing exactly the same thing after next week's thunderstorm, and then next week to make sure that they know that Obama's giving a speech at 9am, and next week to make sure they got home all right from the concert, and next week...
- "You're right. I was wrong. I told myself that the weather was an excuse, but I was just rationalizing, and not respecting your rule. I know that I've broken this rule so many times that saying I'm sorry doesn't do the job, and the only way to demonstrate that I'm sorry to stop breaking it, permanently." And then you stop breaking it. And after a period that's several times as long as the frequency that you usually broke it, they will hopefully believe that the change is real and permanent.
Again, I know that this will all be a series of blows to your feelings and your pride. But I think that this is the work that you're going to have to do to save this relationship.
Onlooker
I think the other poster that said change your goals for now was right, it looks like alot has happened over time that caused hurt and then some resentment on both sides, that's a shame it happened. Sometimes though unless behaviours and communications change sincerely and drasticly people do not want to hear sorry, actions speak louder than words maybe not tell her you are trying to do better show her. Maybe not ask for anything from them for a bit, sometimes when I am slightly annoyed by people and they ask for anything even well meaning like a visit it comes off as pushy or demands. Ease up a bit and go with the flow. You have tried calling and it did no good so try just chilling out on that for a bit. Maybe leave your daughter and her hurt feelings out of it for a while too. I understand any mom hurts when her kids hurt but any issues between the two of them are not up to you and not your problem eventhough you are getting the fall out from it when your daughter complains. Tell your family you can not "go there" for now, that your own feelings are too fragile right now to deal with their hurts over these issues.
"I wanted a daughter in law > that could come over anytime to visit with me with or with out > her husband and baby. I wanted us to be friends, to have a > bond. It seems I have messed up so royally how to get there now?"
You may never get there, not because you did something wrong, but because your DIL may just not want that kind of relationship with you and may not have a personality that craves that kind of interaction. That doesn't mean she doesn't care about you, but that she has a different relationship style and expectations of what a MIL/DIL relationship is like.
I'm not the most social person, and I prefer my relationships to grow slowly, and then only with certain people. It's not that I don't like other people, it's just that I prefer to be a little more reserved. And, honestly, even with people who are really good friends, I don't drop in at their houses or talk on the phone for a long time (drives my best friend nuts, lol, and she's known me for 27 years!). I liked my XMIL and XSILs just fine, but I didn't necessarily expect to - or want to - hang out with them and be close friends. As it happens, I did end up good friends with one XSIL, but not so much with XMIL or the other XSIL, purely as a function of our individual personalities. If any of them had pushed me, insisted that we become closer or spend more time together than was comfortable for me, or told me that they were hurt because I wasn't spending enough time with them, I would've felt trampled on and probably stayed away from them even more.
I think a lot about what kind of a MIL I'll be, and I have a feeling that a FDIL's complaints about me will be that I'm too reserved, and not warm enough, because I'm likely to be the person who communicates mostly via email and facebook, doesn't call much, and rarely visits unless specifically invited. That's just me, and doesn't mean I won't love my DIL or GKs. I hope that we can come to some kind of understanding about what each of us expects from the other, and how far each of us is comfortable accomodating that expectation.
QuoteI'm feeling as if words are being taken out of context and twisted around. I also feel as though many DILs here are not able to look at these issues from any perspective other than their own and are pouncing on women who are in pain, confused, hurting, and rejected.
I think people on both sides feel that way--the mils about the dils and the dils about the mils.
Quote
Please think about it honestly. Do you think you'll be able to walk away like you never gave birth and nurtured your children? Really? Try to put yourself in the place of these sad moms for just a minute. Maybe we can all understand a little better.
I think that's a very good question. I also think, and I'm just talking in generalities--not about anyone, that many times there exist issues in the parent child relationship that the child has not brought to the forefront or stood up to the parent about and that the new spouse is a convenient excuse or gets blamed when the child doesn't spend as much time with the parent anymore or starts standing up to the parent as an adult.
Quote from: penstamen on April 16, 2010, 10:25:27 AM
Her family is pretty enmeshed
I ask this out of curiosity ...no snark or sarcasm. Would you call your family close while hers is enmeshed? What makes hers enmeshed vs close?
Is part of it that you guys are willing to invite people into your lives but she isn't?
"many times there exist issues in the parent child relationship that the child has not brought to the forefront or stood up to the parent about and that the new spouse is a convenient excuse or gets blamed when the child doesn't spend as much time with the parent anymore or starts standing up to the parent as an adult."
This was exactly the situation with me. My parents and I were extremely close - I would call it enmeshed, in the sense that they really felt that it was the 3 of us against the world, and other people were intruders - and it was impossible for me to say no to them in anything. The very first time I ever said no to them about something and stuck with it was when I started dating my now-XH. I was 21, and had pretty much always expected to live with them and take care of them, but didn't really like the idea of that life. I just didn't know that I even could just stand up for myself. When I moved out, I didn't know how to cook or clean up after myself, and didn't even know how to get to the store if someone didn't drive me! My then-DH was a buffer between me and my parents, and gave me an excuse to separate from them. We were no-contact for 3 years, during which time I grew a backbone and a lot of self confidence. When we finally did start speaking again, I didn't find my parents as threatening, because I had developed the ability to be someone independent of their opinions. Our relationship improved hugely.
The same was not true of my marriage, unfortunately - then-DH liked that I was dependent on him for even small things, and became very angry and threatened when I got stronger and more independent. He liked that my parents were not close to me, because it made me cling to him more, and was very uncomfortable when I started speaking to them again. I was still more enmeshed with them than was totally healthy, and it took me a long time to get a really adult relationship with my parents. Took me a long time to get mostly-un-enmeshed with my XH, too, but that wasn't as pervasive an enmeshment to break, so it happened much more quickly.
Quote from: bettylou on April 16, 2010, 10:15:11 AM
Wow so many good responses, in some ways it is hard to read that I am to blame but I guess this is the call that I needed. I needed to see in black and white that sometimes I have overstepped my boundaries, sometimes I have been the one that is not in the right. It was hard but I thank all those, especially the daughter in laws who spoke to me kindly eventhough I probably raised some anger or hurt in them. I am sorry if I did that.
Well I guess I will start this way, here is what I have wanted in a relationship with my son and daughter in law, I have wanted an open line of communication where daughter in law can say things to me like "I don't think that is a good idea or I do not yet feel comfortable with that, or this is the reason I took offense." Instead it is always the same pattern, they leave here and my son calls complaining and then it is a three ring circus where she won't take my calls or speak to me to hear me say I am sorry and to treat me like I am an adult too just like her. If we could just talk it out without son I think it could work better but she will not do this. When I try she says she does not want to talk about it again. I can not force anyone to communicate when they do not want to. I wanted a daughter in law that could come over anytime to visit with me with or with out her husband and baby. I wanted us to be friends, to have a bond. It seems I have messed up so royally how to get there now?
I just need to know how to move forward now, how can I fix it for my self and my family? I just want to get along and love eachother. I do not want to mother my grandson I am too old to raise a baby and I do not want that, I do not even want to be the full time sitter, I am busy, but I want to go to to granparents days at the schools and I want to have him come see us, not to take over, I hever gave any parenting advice to them because I know that hurts and they need to find out what workds and doesnt on their own. I have said sorry so many times, when will it be enough to move ahead?
BettyLou,
If your DIL will not communicate with you, you can't fix the problem. It is one thing for your son to talk to you, but as we know men sometimes do not know how to say things or to even communicate as they hate conflict. Your DIL should definitely open up and talk to you. I tired with my MIL, but all I got was this is the way I am so get over it. Never mind I was trying to tell he how she makes me feel and that if I was treated different we would have no issues.
Quote from: Postscript on April 16, 2010, 10:18:31 AM
Pen, My husband and I have that kind of relationship with my parents (except my father drinks beer) and that was the kind of relationship I envisioned having with my Mil and Fil. The kind of relationship where it's; equal, comfortable and well, friendly.
I get exactly what you are saying, you are mourning the loss of the adult friendship you expected to have with your son and his wife. I actually get along quite well with my Fil and probably could have that kind of relationship with him, it's just my Mil is still clinging to her role as a mother of small children. I understand too as her husband, it's my Fil's role to form a united front with his wife, like you have talked to your son, we have talked to Fil. If anything he is the one "stuck in the middle" here.
To that end I wonder sometimes why he doesn't just tell her, stop trying to control them, they are adults now? Maybe he does and she won't listen? Do you think your Dil will ever come around? I still hope my Mil will.
Well said Post. Sometime I think I mourn the relationship that could have been more than my DH mourns the loss of his entire family. Conflict frankly sucks. Why can't MILs/DILs be decent and get along?
BettyLou, Please try and understand if you can...you are not to blame, you are in fact, simply being the person you've been for a long time...you don't know how else to be...however, to also be aware that it takes two to tangle in some cases, not all, as you know your situation better then I do...I'm simply trying to throw some ideas out there...doesn't mean your wrong and she's right, or visa versa, it is simply two people clashing for some reason.
When a son gets married, it is a huge transition, for the new wife, for the son and for the mother...son is still used to being close to mom, and wife feels rejected...or ignored, or she thinks he is ignoring her feelings...her needs to be first and foremost in his life...
I remember being at times, illogical and jealous, however, I would never have admitted that to my husband...and did encourage him to go spend quality time with her...b/c I wanted time with my mom...it's natural...however, I was young, & inexperienced...couldn't wait to start up my own home and traditions...
His mom, pushed me so much...she expected me to feel about her as her son did, I couldn't I had just met her...she started buying all these expensive gifts, which really annoyed me, it made me feel like I owed her in return and I had to do her bidding.
She didn't mean it that way...she was just being who she was, and trying to show me, she loved me...and yanno what, we mothers do love our DIL's...but when things start happening, if we don't communicate with each other, they get way out of hand...
any problems that we had were just as much my fault as hers...we were both involved, and even though neither of us meant to hurt each other, we did...so we talked it out...and it surely did help...and I tell you I was scared to death...scared she'd be hurt and get angry with me...I mean, I sat there telling her things she did that offended me...but in the end, we both hugged and both promised to try and do better...when your a mom for most of your life, you can't turn it off...it's just the way we women are...so, please don't feel like you did things wrong...understand, she is not right and you are not wrong, it's just the difference in personalities...in time and with patience, do diligence and hard work, you may both see that ...I surely do hope so...
Hugs
Creme
Quote from: penstamen on April 16, 2010, 08:41:09 AM
I'm feeling as if words are being taken out of context and twisted around. I also feel as though many DILs here are not able to look at these issues from any perspective other than their own and are pouncing on women who are in pain, confused, hurting, and rejected.
As a former DIL to a mean MIL, I get it. As the daughter of a woman who dealt with a truly horrid MIL, I get it. I understand the frustration, anger and hurt some DILs feel due to horrible treatment by their MILs. Some of the stories are really heartbreaking, and I am so sorry for those of you who are dealing with it.
We know that adults, our children and their spouses, have the right to treat us any way they choose. They are breaking no laws by shutting us out. We get that! What we don't understand is why those of us who have not been awful are being pushed aside and treated with rudeness and scorn. I've even read some posts here, directed at me and other MILs, that reflect those rude, harsh attitudes, even though Luise has said over and over that the purpose of this site was understanding and kindness.
I have a very full life, but there's a big empty spot shaped like DS. One day he was here; we talked, we laughed, we enjoyed spending time together (not a lot - he's a busy guy) in a relaxed, non-critical atmosphere. The next day it changed. Suddenly, with no warning. As DS says, "It's not you. It's her problem." Even DIL says that! DS has come to us confused and hurt by DIL's attitude, and we've said, "You need to work it out with her. She's your wife." We know we haven't done any of the things the nightmarish ILs have done - quite the opposite. Not even a drop-in. She just doesn't want us in the picture at all. We're supposed to be like salmon - spawn, produce, go away.
I can't believe that those of you who are so protective of your children and nuclear families now would be able to handle the hurtful treatment some of us are getting if your sons should marry a woman who is determined to shut you out (I truly hope it doesn't happen to you, but what if it does?) Please think about it honestly. Do you think you'll be able to walk away like you never gave birth and nurtured your children? Really? Try to put yourself in the place of these sad moms for just a minute. Maybe we can all understand a little better.
Pen, thanks for saying so eloquently what I (and many others) are feeling. It seems that we are being short changed the respect that we had come to expect after raising our dc. From what I've read, the mil's I have come to know on this site are not bossing their adult children around, running their lives, or expecting their ds's to be the center of their lives. We just want to be a
part of their lives - have our calls answered, be treated with common courtesy, be treated with care. Honestly, I agree that our ds's are not innocent here - they are allowing us to be treated this way. However, I would love to be a fly on the wall to hear what they may have to endure if they defend us. Many men would rather give in than to deal with confrontations and they don't want a constant battle. I know our ds is layed back and would rather give in than fight. That doesn't excuse him, but I think he's worn down. Any way, I'm grateful for your good taste and skillful articulation. It's so nice to have you here!
Hugs, Hope
Quote from: penstamen on April 16, 2010, 09:29:51 AM
Dear Creme, I'm not wanting to be DS's "mommy" anymore...I'm done childrearing and love being free to do my thing. What I am hurt about is the sudden rejection by DIL that has changed our relationship with DS. Honestly, I'm not a cling-on. Don't want the kids to move home, don't even want to be considered for full-time GC sitting when the time comes. I have more hobbies than time, still work part-time, etc. etc.
I can visualize a scene where we're all sitting around the firepit in the patio, drinking wine, looking at the stars, talking over current events or books or whatever, or getting DS's opinion on the things he's learned in college. Doesn't that sound nice? It's not going to happen with us anymore because DIL thinks we're losers and hates being around us. That's all.
Pen, you aren't a loser and your dil/ds are really missing out. I hope they open their eyes soon and that together you can build a healthy relationship of mutual respect.
Hugs, Hope
Quote from: penstamen on April 16, 2010, 09:29:51 AM
Dear Creme, I'm not wanting to be DS's "mommy" anymore...I'm done childrearing and love being free to do my thing. What I am hurt about is the sudden rejection by DIL that has changed our relationship with DS. Honestly, I'm not a cling-on. Don't want the kids to move home, don't even want to be considered for full-time GC sitting when the time comes. I have more hobbies than time, still work part-time, etc. etc.
I can visualize a scene where we're all sitting around the firepit in the patio, drinking wine, looking at the stars, talking over current events or books or whatever, or getting DS's opinion on the things he's learned in college. Doesn't that sound nice? It's not going to happen with us anymore because DIL thinks we're losers and hates being around us. That's all.
Pen, you are not loosers....your people, with feelings who love your son...my heart aches for you, and at times, I just don't know what to say, I don't want you to think I'm saying yoru not doing something right...I don't know what the answers are...I really don't, all I have to work with is my experiences...and know your not a cling on...or expect more then your share, nor are you unreasonable...I so wish there were something I could say or do that would help...I know this might sound really innorant, but I really do believe in a lot of our cases, not all, that it's all about psycology...and I do believe, the more we understand our own DIL's the more hope we might have to calm the waters...so, please know, and hope you believe, that your not being unreasonable...when your hurt like this, it's so hard to see anything else...I know, I've been there and said the same words you are saying now...please hang strong...and try to work on healing yourself if you can...it worked for me...I don't know if it will work for anyone else...in my divorce, of course, I wanted to blame him, I hated him...for what he did to us...then, one day, years later, I started to self examine....I found more answers that way, then in blaming him...I asked myself why I chose such a dysfuncational partner...etc...I heard it said once, that answers come, when we start looking to ourselves...not that your doing anythig wrong Pen, or expect to much...and I know your situation is way different from mine...I just wish this would stop for you and everyone who is going thru this...life is way to short...and time goes so fast...Pen, don't give up hope...b/c I do believe where there is hope and love, change comes eventually...please believe in that, and most of all, never stop believing in positive energy.
I know the pain of not knowing my son anymore, or sharing his experiences...hearing what he likes and doesn't like...about life, his job, etc...I do know...and don't give up that dream...
maybe you could invite them over for a drink and some snacks....sit around the fire on the patio and just talk about things? why don't you try? What do you have to loose? You don't have to bring up anything...just you, hubby, him and DIL...keep trying Pen...dont' give up...don't ever give up...
Hugs and love
Creme
Quote from: 1Glitterati on April 16, 2010, 01:47:00 PM
Quote from: penstamen on April 16, 2010, 10:25:27 AM
Her family is pretty enmeshed
I ask this out of curiosity ...no snark or sarcasm. Would you call your family close while hers is enmeshed? What makes hers enmeshed vs close?
Is part of it that you guys are willing to invite people into your lives but she isn't?
Good question, Glitter. As Elsie said, her family felt like it was them against the world. That describes my DIL's family, too. They all work for DIL's dad and live in the same area. He controls their vacation time (they get one week which is spent with the family.) They see each other every work day and on weekends. They control all holidays and celebrations so they can continue to do what they've always done. They gossip and snark about all the children's IL's (we asked them to stop doing that in front of us because it made us uncomfortable.) No one else is good enough; no one is as wonderful as they are. They say, "As long as we're together we can handle anything."
Our family doesn't work at the same place or live near each other, and we certainly don't have delusions that we are the best people on the planet. We've always encouraged our kids to pursue their own interests and dreams, even if we weren't passionate about it. We also encouraged them to build relationships with people who could be seen as mentors (of course we kept them safe - it's not like we sent them off with strangers) figuring that the more people who loved and supported our kids the better. We don't force our adult children to attend events or celebrations against their will. We love them, and we are close, but I don't think we've ever been described as enmeshed.
We've never been invited to DS & DIL's home except to help them move, but I've heard they have people over, so I assume she's willing to let people in, just not us. Maybe the only people who are invited are her family. I never asked and they've never told.
Pen, you and your dh sound like wonderful parents. I can imagine how difficult it is that your ds works for his fil along with other members of dil's family - and his only week off work each year is spent with dil's family. I can't see where you are doing anything wrong. It's just unfortunate circumstances and dil's family sounds controlling and uppidy. I feel bad for you, your dh, and your ds.
Hugs, Hope
Thanks, Hope. I am thinking of you, too, and sending {{{hugs.}}} Knowing we're listened to and given support helps a lot, even when we're not agreed with 100%. Your calm, kind presence is like a balm when things get a little stormy here :) I really appreciate you.
Awwwwww - thanks, Pen. I feel the same way......just having a safe place to vent or share mutual problems helps me so much. It's like medicine to my soul to be able to communicate with others who know the same pain and even if we can't solve eachother's problems we can feel understood. And that has a healing power.
Hugs back at 'cha. Hope
Quote from: penstamen on April 16, 2010, 07:40:22 PM
Good question, Glitter. As Elsie said, her family felt like it was them against the world. That describes my DIL's family, too. They all work for DIL's dad and live in the same area. He controls their vacation time (they get one week which is spent with the family.) They see each other every work day and on weekends. They control all holidays and celebrations so they can continue to do what they've always done.
That's a very good explanation...thanks.